Way/Specialities

[jarlaxle_dourden]

I was always under the impression that you could only take one speciality?

I know that there are issues that prevent a tempest ranger/rogue from also getting the way of the assassin (try it out in the char gen tool and you will see what I mean).

However, I was just playing around with a build and noticed that you could have an acro/tempest build ... also you could have an acro/mechanic/tempest build ... does that surprise anyone else?

Has anyone build a rogie type with acro mech and tempest? 2x the swing speed modifier *drool*

[Angelus_dead]

Has anyone build a rogie type with acro mech and tempest? 2x the swing speed modifier *drool*
First, Acrobat and Mechanic are explicitly exclusive of each other.
Second, Acrobat and Mechanic do not provide any swing boost- only Tempest does that. So there is no source for your "2x modifer".

What you can do is get Tempest on a character with a few rogue levels to have Rogue Haste Boost for +15% swinging speed.

[honkuimushi]

Actually, there was a 10% attack speed proposed with quarterstaffs for Way of the Thief-Acrobat II. If quarterstaffs were considered double weapons, they should also gain the bonus Tempest gets for Dual Wielding. Unfortunately for this idea, quarterstaffs are considered 2 handed weapons in DDO. If the capability to use them as dual weapons were ever added, this would be an interesting combination. A Monk 8/ Rogue 12 with WotTA using Flurry of Blows and the quarterstaff abilities of the Thief-Acrobat could be interesting as well, though you wouldn't get the improvements from flurry until epic levels.


Also, There shouldn't be any problem with taking both way of the Assasin and Tempest. I just did in the the character planner ver. 2.85. Some of the Archer specialties have conflicts in that they require Ranger Hide and Move Silently enhancements while Assasin requires Rogue Hide and Move Silently enhancements. But Tempest only requires ITWF, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Did you have 6 levels of both Rogue and Ranger? The enhancements are a bit tight, but you can do it.

Edit: Just to clarify, you can have 2 specialties, but they have to be in seperate classes. You can not have two specialties for the same class. So you can't have Assasin and Way of the Mechanic. You can't have Tempest and Deepwood Sniper or Warchanter and Spellsinger.

I suppose you could even have 3 once we get to level 18. So we could do a Tempest/ Warchanter/Assasin. You would have to take 6 levels of Ranger, Bard and Rogue and you have 5 feats that are required- Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack and Weapon Focus. I suppose if you went human and strength based, or possibly halfling, it could be an effective build at high levels. A Ranger 6/ Rogue 6/ Bard 8 would probably be the best split, but Ranger 6/ Rogue 7, Bard 7 also has merits.

The problem would be mid levels when you don't have any of your specialties and all of your class levels are pretty low. Also, the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack chain doesn't give you much bang for the buck until you go Tempest. Also, Power Attack with several levels of 3/4 BAB classes wouldn't be that good until you picked up Weapon Focus and improved your Bard song a bit. If you switch your feats out only when you need them, that may make it a little more viable for those levels.

[Mhykke]

You can't take more than 1 specialty in the same class.

You can take 1 specialty each from 2 classes though. As long as they're from different classes, and you meet the prereqs for each, no problem.

[Aesop]

I was always under the impression that you could only take one speciality?

I know that there are issues that prevent a tempest ranger/rogue from also getting the way of the assassin (try it out in the char gen tool and you will see what I mean).
*

nope I had no problem with Tempest... deepwoods sniper now... that is a no go due to the Enhancement requirements



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Yay Varily
Level 16 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(10 Rogue \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 160
Spell Points: 25
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 21
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 12 14
Dexterity 17 26
Constitution 13 14
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 11 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 16
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 16
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 16
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 16
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 7 18
Bluff 0 3
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 4 18
Disable Device 6 20
Haggle 4 18
Heal -1 0
Hide 3 14
Intimidate 0 1
Jump 5 10
Listen -1 2
Move Silently 3 14
Open Lock 7 25
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 6 20
Spot 3 17
Swim 1 2
Tumble 7 13
Use Magic Device 4 18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Ranger)

Level 5 (Ranger)

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 7 (Ranger)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II

[Eladrin]

As noted, you can take specialties from different classes. (Elf Arcane Archer counts as a Ranger pick, however!)

Currently there are problems if one prestige enhancement requires "Ranger Hide II" while another requires "Rogue Hide II" - I'd like to address that in the future.

[Aesop]

As noted, you can take specialties from different classes. (Elf Arcane Archer counts as a Ranger pick, however!)

Currently there are problems if one prestige enhancement requires "Ranger Hide II" while another requires "Rogue Hide II" - I'd like to address that in the future.

Bon Bon El thanks ... could you also address the Class Specific PrEs as well and open things up to Builds as opposed to classes... which would be much closer to 3.5...Just hopin here :D

Aesop

[Angelus_dead]

Currently there are problems if one prestige enhancement requires "Ranger Hide II" while another requires "Rogue Hide II" - I'd like to address that in the future.
The obvious way to change it would be to edit each enhancement that requires Ranger Hide II so that any of Ranger/Rogue/Elf/Halfling Hide II would suffice. The big drawback there is that the amount of text to list so many alternatives will balloon the enhancement description to monstrous size- but that is a problem of formatting, not content or gameplay.

A change like that would be much appreciated by Human Rogues, for example, who currently are forced to waste points on Rogue Skill Boost to qualify for Way of the Mechanic, even if they have the far-superior Human Versatility boost already.

[Aesop]

The obvious way to change it would be to edit each enhancement that requires Ranger Hide II so that any of Ranger/Rogue/Elf/Halfling Hide II would suffice. The big drawback there is that the amount of text to list so many alternatives will balloon the enhancement description to monstrous size- but that is a problem of formatting, not content or gameplay.

nah just bullet point them like they do with weapon effects... ie

>Hide II
with a highlight examine option that lists the possible choices


A change like that would be much appreciated by Human Rogues, for example, who currently are forced to waste points on Rogue Skill Boost to qualify for Way of the Mechanic, even if they have the far-superior Human Versatility boost already.

mmm... that would be nice



Aesop

[bobbryan2]

As noted, you can take specialties from different classes. (Elf Arcane Archer counts as a Ranger pick, however!)

Currently there are problems if one prestige enhancement requires "Ranger Hide II" while another requires "Rogue Hide II" - I'd like to address that in the future.

Can we address a way to have it use either Ranger Hide II, Rogue Hide II, or having 8 base skill points invested in hide? :)

[Angelus_dead]

Can we address a way to have it use either Ranger Hide II, Rogue Hide II, or having 8 base skill points invested in hide? :)
Apparently the existing system can only look at prereqs that are enhancements, feats, race, or levels. Probably skills wouldn't work yet.

Changing enhancements to take skills as a prereq would be somewhat problematic, because feats and enhancements can be respecced but skills cannot. Of course, as long as the skill ranks were used only as an optional replacement for enhancements, that could work.

[bobbryan2]

Apparently the existing system can only look at prereqs that are enhancements, feats, race, or levels. Probably skills wouldn't work yet.

Changing enhancements to take skills as a prereq would be somewhat problematic, because feats and enhancements can be respecced but skills cannot. Of course, as long as the skill ranks were used only as an optional replacement for enhancements, that could work.

That's why I said or.. As much as I think some sort of skill respec needs to be coded... in the meantime, it would be nice if we could have Rogue Hide II or invested hide skill.

But if they ultimately want to change prestige enhancements to require ONLY skill points... that's probably going to necessitate a way to reroll base starting stats..

[Invalid_86]

As noted, you can take specialties from different classes. (Elf Arcane Archer counts as a Ranger pick, however!)

Currently there are problems if one prestige enhancement requires "Ranger Hide II" while another requires "Rogue Hide II" - I'd like to address that in the future.

Assuming, of course, that for some reason we can't just have prestige classes as CLASSES.

Why not just have them require feats, skill ranks, ability to cast spells of a certain level, etc to take the Ways...and open them up to anyone who qualifies? You know, like it is in DnD? It seems to be that the problem you are having here is forcing a square peg to fit in a round hole to make a system work that doesn't exist in DnD. Sometimes the answer is pretty straightforward.

[bobbryan2]

Assuming, of course, that for some reason we can't just have prestige classes as CLASSES.

Why not just have them require feats, skill ranks, ability to cast spells of a certain level, etc to take the Ways...and open them up to anyone who qualifies? You know, like it is in DnD? It seems to be that the problem you are having here is forcing a square peg to fit in a round hole to make a system work that doesn't exist in DnD. Sometimes the answer is pretty straightforward.

Which would require a reroll function.. which they're trying not to implement.

Not to mention the problems that would arise when trying to make enhancements for prestige classes and the amount of planning and balance that would go into it.

It's not nearly as straightforward of a reason as you'd like to believe. Truth be told... i actually like the enhancement system in DDO.

[Invalid_86]

Which would require a reroll function.. which they're trying not to implement.

Not to mention the problems that would arise when trying to make enhancements for prestige classes and the amount of planning and balance that would go into it.

It's not nearly as straightforward of a reason as you'd like to believe. Truth be told... i actually like the enhancement system in DDO.

Note that I wrote that assuming that they would be enhancements.