Scrolls and exploiting

[simon159]

I was just curious about the rules on using scrolls in regard to exploiting,

Not that long ago a you used to be able to purchace fire wall and cloudkill and a numerous other scrolls. these were taken out of the game because, as i see it , people used them too much.

So what can be said about all the others especially Heal/Raise dead/Restoration/Greater hero. Surely if you remove some scrolls from the game because they were being used too much then they should all go, as they can all be used to the same effect.

[Forceonature]

If you remove all of the scrolls, what's the point of having UMD?

[simon159]

If you remove all of the scrolls, what's the point of having UMD?

Bypassing item/weapon requirements and using wands

[Judo]

you sir, have never solo cleric'd the shroud :D

[simon159]

you sir, have never solo cleric'd the shroud :D

I have a capped lvl 16 cleric and i usually go into the shroud with more that 1 cleric lol,

i am not saying remove them completely just make them all loot drops, let them fall from breakables, be taken off mobs. just not have them on venders where people can buy them in the hundreds, or you might as well bring back firewall cloudkill and the others they removed

[redoubt]

Scrolls are not an exploit. Please stop trying to remove options from your fellow players.

Thank you.

[ENGRAV0]

-ForceONature- Though Scrolls are an important reason to acrue UMD, there are so many other reasons. Just to name a couple, and some will be left out, Using Race Restricted items on another class, Using Wands, Bypassing requirements (Not related to race) ie..True Law weapons on a non lawful character.

As far as the Firewall and Cloud Kill, they were removed a while back, alond with DDoor and a few others, because people were spamming firewall scrolls, same with Cloud Kill, and the combined affect was leading to accomplishments that were simply making the game go by way too quickly. Also, I believe at the time, you could CK through doorways, same with FW.

Now, if all my information was correct, as I was not in game at the time, I had to ask some freinds that were here since Beta and have seen all these mysterious changes occur, now that the AI has been changed, the CK and FW no longer go through doorways, and so many spells that used to NOT create agro for the caster, all DO now cause Agro, then, it makes sense that these should actualy be returned to the game.

Heal and various other scrolls that you mention are almost as vital a spell to find on paper, and tend to be used in large numbers, afterall, what good is a cleric if he has no paper? Ok, yeah, they still have use, but with the inflated HP and difficulty that the Devs have maintained (And the newly created ones) to try to keep the game a challenge, to remove those scrolls (IMO) would simply make so many healers inept.

Here is an example- If a Cleric had ONLY his mana, and wands to rely on to heal, and to raise, just about any cleric that had less than max SP would even be able to get a group, unless there were a couple Clerics in the group alredy. A Cleric would become nothing at all but a healer, which would remove some of the fun of playing a Cleric. Blade Barrier, Destruction, many Clerics would (Again, IMO) find there way booted from parties for casting anything other than heals and a couple buffs. Meaning, in short, it would limit the clerics playability AND variety AND functionality. Those scrolls wont go anywhere, it isn't feasable (In My Eyes) for Turbine to even think about removing them.

[Judo]

they nerfed it plenty back in the day, slowed timer etc

most important, its fun

umd sorcs, pallys, Bardarians, love them, it opens up a whole new solo aspect to the game

and dont forget the most important feature of heal scrolls etc, they're pretty expensive lol

we pay good plat for them, and because of this there is a definite limit lol

[Forceonature]

-ForceONature- Though Scrolls are an important reason to acrue UMD, there are so many other reasons. Just to name a couple, and some will be left out, Using Race Restricted items on another class, Using Wands, Bypassing requirements (Not related to race) ie..True Law weapons on a non lawful character.

I understand what UMD is for, I was just trying to convey that scrolls are one of the main reasons that players bump up their UMD, especially at higher levels (raise dead, etc.). I have a lvl 12 multiclassed fighter that has a good UMD, and he can use RR weapons and items, as well as wands. One of his big assets though, is that he can raise the cleric 50% in a pinch using scrolls. Removing scrolls would remove this capability, which some may see as an important part of their character.

[...v...]

I was just curious about the rules on using scrolls in regard to exploiting,

Not that long ago a you used to be able to purchace fire wall and cloudkill and a numerous other scrolls. these were taken out of the game because, as i see it , people used them too much.

So what can be said about all the others especially Heal/Raise dead/Restoration/Greater hero. Surely if you remove some scrolls from the game because they were being used too much then they should all go, as they can all be used to the same effect.


Yeah I don’t get it, thought this was DDO. Casters have so much sp now that they really don’t need scrolls only umd users. The people with all this yak about cheating and exploiting needs to stop because its messing up the gaming experience and the designers should just worry about giving us more content!

[ThrasherGT]

Yeah I don’t get it, thought this was DDO. Casters have so much sp now that they really don’t need scrolls only umd users. The people with all this yak about cheating and exploiting needs to stop because its messing up the gaming experience and the designers should just worry about giving us more content!

Sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. For most, if not all, current end game content, removing scrolls from the game would be a HUGE mistake. And don't forget, We still have 4 more levels to go (and possibly more), and assuming difficulty will increase with levels, scrolls will be an integral part of DDO as We move into the future.

[Hvymetal]

I was just curious about the rules on using scrolls in regard to exploiting,

Not that long ago a you used to be able to purchace fire wall and cloudkill and a numerous other scrolls. these were taken out of the game because, as i see it , people used them too much.

So what can be said about all the others especially Heal/Raise dead/Restoration/Greater hero. Surely if you remove some scrolls from the game because they were being used too much then they should all go, as they can all be used to the same effect.
Now since you brought up the E word mind tying Heal/Raise Dead/ Restoration & Greater Hero scrolls into that somehow? Or were you just throwing that out as hyperbole?

[Galvin_Omon]

What the .... are you thinking.

Get rid of MORE scrolls from the vender, boy you must have been hanging out it the goof who removed the BB scrolls, fire wall scrolls, DD, and other useful scrolls which made the game more playable. Reading a post like this makes me want age of conan to come faster cause people like U are sucking the fun out of the game.

Wait I have a better idea!

Lets just take out all of the fun...let me see I also think we should get rid of armor and maybe all blunt weapons, I mean we have skin and fists and those weapons and armor are just an exploite....


ARE YOU KIDDING ME....:rolleyes:

[Murgatroyd]

The removal of more scrolls would be a kick in the teeth to bards are rogues considering those two classes have UMD as a class skill. Also what I don't want is to run a quest and have even more scrolls drop from a chest.

IF more scrolls were to be removed, then scroll crafting needs to be added to the game. Wizards would get it automatically at level 1 and any other spell casting class would need to take the feat. This would need to be balanced though because I could easily see this abused by people selling the scrolls for inflated prices on the AH.

[lissa_981]

you sir, have never solo cleric'd the shroud :D

This is not an excuse to keep spamming expensive heal scrolls. This is a reason to give clerics a little casting love, say with devotion/potency VIII items, healing lore items that drop in quests other than Invaders!, and across the board HP/AC review of both mobs and players, etc.

[ThrasherGT]

This is not an excuse to keep spamming expensive heal scrolls. This is a reason to give clerics a little casting love, say with devotion/potency VIII items, healing lore items that drop in quests other than Invaders!, and across the board HP/AC review of both mobs and players, etc.

But without the scrolls, it would not be possible to only bring 1 cleric into the Shroud. To Me anything that removes flexibility from the game is bad. I agree about the potency/devotion items, though................

[Rowanheal]

There is more than one of these threads going around? What this is the new topic for the week?

Seriously, people I am not understanding how any of you find heal, raise dead, greater heroism, restoration scrolls exploitative in the game.

Make me an argument I can actually debate. Heal and raise dead are cost prohibitive for a reason. I spam neither. Greater Heroism? Huh? Restoration... ummm well I can't even think how this could be. Great Restoration scrolls are used sparingly and situationally only as far as I know.

So please... make me a believer!

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

[Deragoth]

Scrolls are not an exploit. I even submit that they should bring back, SF, CK, Firewall, DD, and BB. I think it made the game more fun, and I have yet to see an argument as to why denying me the ability to purchase DD scrolls makes my game any better.

[lissa_981]

But without the scrolls, it would not be possible to only bring 1 cleric into the Shroud. To Me anything that removes flexibility from the game is bad. I agree about the potency/devotion items, though................

Then explain the removal of the other scrolls....they removed flexibility from the game.

Cherry-picking sucks, either nerf scrolls or don't.



Sorry if I sound angry at you, don't take offense, it's just a frustrating situation.

[ENGRAV0]

There is more than one of these threads going around? What this is the new topic for the week?

Seriously, people I am not understanding how any of you find heal, raise dead, greater heroism, restoration scrolls exploitative in the game.

Make me an argument I can actually debate. Heal and raise dead are cost prohibitive for a reason. I spam neither. Greater Heroism? Huh? Restoration... ummm well I can't even think how this could be. Great Restoration scrolls are used sparingly and situationally only as far as I know.

So please... make me a believer!

See ya in Stormreach,

-R


Rowan, I think you misunderstood it, or I did, which is possible too, LoL. I think the arguement is backwards, I believe he WANTS the FW and DD scrolls returned. Heck, now rereading the original post, it almost sounds as if he wanted to know when using some scrolls was considered exploiting to possibly make sure he didn't irritate anyone by doing something.

Just a guess, but perhaps someone got irritated in game when he healed himself, or said, I can raise you, and the Cleric might have been put off, though I would have no clue why any Cleric would be put off. LoL.

[Rowanheal]

Rowan, I think you misunderstood it, or I did, which is possible too, LoL. I think the arguement is backwards, I believe he WANTS the FW and DD scrolls returned. Heck, now rereading the original post, it almost sounds as if he wanted to know when using some scrolls was considered exploiting to possibly make sure he didn't irritate anyone by doing something.

Just a guess, but perhaps someone got irritated in game when he healed himself, or said, I can raise you, and the Cleric might have been put off, though I would have no clue why any Cleric would be put off. LoL.

I don't know if I misunderstood or not, because this seems to be the new weird theme for the week. And his last statement is they should all go... so I am not sure.

Sigh, if they ruin your gameplay don't use em. Personally the power of the scrolls was never so significant that it was a choice of use the scroll and save the xp or actually do some damage using the spell. I had a UMD bard who I parked after the last scroll nerf. I built her to UMD and heal and do damage via scrolls. She misses her old life and finds patching everyones health when she is allowed out of the house to adventure pretty boring.

Heal is bloody expensive. I can't afford to keep many on me. So are raise dead and let's not even talk about resurrection scrolls.

And while I find Greater Heroism handy on occasion on my rogue, I think she has bought maybe a total of 100 in her entire career.

I am confused. What is this about?

Little words people, Little words...not enough coffee in my system to make me human as of yet :D

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

[Lizardgrad89]

Yeah I don’t get it, thought this was DDO. Casters have so much sp now that they really don’t need scrolls only umd users. The people with all this yak about cheating and exploiting needs to stop because its messing up the gaming experience and the designers should just worry about giving us more content!

Casters need scrolls as much or more as UMD types do.

The limitation of casters right now is the number of spells you can have prepared. Five per level for Wiz, 4 per level for Sorcs. Not as big a deal for Wiz as they can change spells at each shrine, but Sorcs are VERY limited.

A pile of the correct scrolls, in a sense, increases the variety of spells you have available.

Having a pile of mana available doesn't do much good if the party needs a Break Enchantment and you don't have it memorized.

(This is the reason DDoor was taken away, IMO. Nobody took the spell, just bought scrolls, and so it amounted to an extra spell slot for everybody. Why this was considered a problem I have NO idea. I mean, there are 20 spells per level, and you can only use 4 or 5 at a time, so most are never used. They may as well be removed from the game to reduce the coding.)

[sirgog]

I think allowing these powerful spells onto scrolls sold at vendors was a big mistake on Turbine's behalf. But, it's one we are stuck with now, as every quest at endgame is balanced around the idea that clerics carry modest quantities (on norm) and large stacks (on elite) of Heal scrolls.

Changing the dynamics of these spells would require a massive rebalance of the difficulty of most mod 5 and 6 content.

[Trugaard]

I have a capped lvl 16 cleric and i usually go into the shroud with more that 1 cleric lol,

i am not saying remove them completely just make them all loot drops, let them fall from breakables, be taken off mobs. just not have them on venders where people can buy them in the hundreds, or you might as well bring back firewall cloudkill and the others they removed

Dude get real. The first removal of scrolls was stupid. Scrolls allow you to complete quests with low manned or maybe a non-perfect group. Just because 6 is the maximum number of players in most groups doesn't mean that every quest should require as much. Scrolls are great and instead of taking stuff away from us (again) jack up the price a bit but don't take them away. The shroud without scrolls would require 4-6 clerics and would hurt the rest of the classes.

Get real man, come strong with a real reason or don't come at all!

[ENGRAV0]

I think allowing these powerful spells onto scrolls sold at vendors was a big mistake on Turbine's behalf. But, it's one we are stuck with now, as every quest at endgame is balanced around the idea that clerics carry modest quantities (on norm) and large stacks (on elite) of Heal scrolls.

Changing the dynamics of these spells would require a massive rebalance of the difficulty of most mod 5 and 6 content.

Actualy, just to point out something, I don't think they really do ANY balance testing when it comes to clerics. Have you ever seen an videos of the Devs doing any gaming without Godmode on?

Sorry, just something I have noticed while searching various places looking at various videos they have released showing content, and every single one (3 so far) has god mode on. Course that monk looks powerful, but if he were actualy taking damage where would he compare to that pesky little Gnole in the desert who is obviously hitting hit back?

[Mindspat]

these were taken out of the game because, as i see it , people used them too much.

So what can be said about all the others especially Heal/Raise dead/Restoration/Greater hero. Surely if you remove some scrolls from the game because they were being used too much then they should all go, as they can all be used to the same effect.

I assumed they were removed becuase they bypassed many other "checks & balances". I honestly wish most scrolls, if not all, were removed from vendors and went loot only, but in larger stacks then 1-3.

What about increasing the cool down timer? It's not PnP and there's no real reason why the rules need to be a literal implentation.

OP, I think it's pretty lame to use "exploit" in this thread and I feel it only exemplifies your lack of maturity and common sense.

[ThrasherGT]

Then explain the removal of the other scrolls....they removed flexibility from the game.

Cherry-picking sucks, either nerf scrolls or don't.



Sorry if I sound angry at you, don't take offense, it's just a frustrating situation.

I never take offense at a good debate:D

I wish I knew all the reasons they decided to take all those scrolls out of the game, but On a couple of them, I have a pretty good guess.......

CK, SF, BB, and WoF were, IMO broken before they removed them from the game:
1. their duration was insanely long.
2. If You had the scroll, there was no reason to ever take the spell.

Notice that You still see some of these on the AH once in a while, so why aren't people buying them? It's because of the severely reduced duration they have now.

Greater Heroism could have been included in that list, but I think that it was excluded because:
1. It is not an offensive spell
2. Very high UMD (44)
3. Scroll last 11 minutes, spell lasts 30-32 minutes
4. It's expensive

I think the difference with the Heal scrolls is that a cleric could never only use the scrolls and still be effective. 110-150 points of healing from a Heal scroll just doesn't cut it with fighters/Barbs having 450+ HP (sometimes ALOT more). Combine that with the loooooooooong cool down with the scrolls, and they end up being a back-up for when there is a "nasty" fight, or for emergencies when the cleric runs out of mana. The cost of them makes them prohibitive to use "willy-nilly" anyway................

[simon159]

i have a lvl 16 sorc and a lvl 16 cleric, these are the 2 classes i play most, i am constantly being flammed in game for using scrolls on my sorc (e.g. greater hero) to save my manna for the spells that do the killing, if i dont buff people then i get moaned at for not buffing so i choose to do my buffing using some scrolls.

the fighters are always telling me how sorcs or casters in general should be nerfed cos they are too powerful tho i have saved the quest many times cos i am powerful, my sorc also has umd so i can use restoration,heal and raise dead scrolls, this helps cos it can conserve the clerics manna to.

not that long ago they removed some scrolls out of the venders (fw,ck,dd to name just a few) because people were complaining about the amount that casters were using, but this also applys to the bards and umd rogues using them too. now surely if they have taken away a the readily availible supply of these scrolls then the same should apply to all scrolls because they can all be used to extream.

fighters complain heavily about how powerful casters are and how they shouldnt use scrolls but you will never hear them complain about being healed by a scroll, this to me is just people who dont have the knowledge and ability to play casters and prefer to just run in and hack slash their way through quests without having to think too much as long as they are kept alive.

[lissa_981]

I never take offense at a good debate:D

I wish I knew all the reasons they decided to take all those scrolls out of the game, but On a couple of them, I have a pretty good guess.......

CK, SF, BB, and WoF were, IMO broken before they removed them from the game:
1. their duration was insanely long.
2. If You had the scroll, there was no reason to ever take the spell.

Notice that You still see some of these on the AH once in a while, so why aren't people buying them? It's because of the severely reduced duration they have now.

Greater Heroism could have been included in that list, but I think that it was excluded because:
1. It is not an offensive spell
2. Very high UMD (44)
3. Scroll last 11 minutes, spell lasts 30-32 minutes
4. It's expensive

I think the difference with the Heal scrolls is that a cleric could never only use the scrolls and still be effective. 110-150 points of healing from a Heal scroll just doesn't cut it with fighters/Barbs having 450+ HP (sometimes ALOT more). Combine that with the loooooooooong cool down with the scrolls, and they end up being a back-up for when there is a "nasty" fight, or for emergencies when the cleric runs out of mana. The cost of them makes them prohibitive to use "willy-nilly" anyway................


Interestingly enough, it seems to me that the new versions of the removed spell scrolls fit what you said about heal scrolls.

I can find no compelling reason not to put those scrolls back in....can you?

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

Sad thing, I used to use FW,CK scrolls on my bard. (those look bad together)
Now that I have a sorc I find those scrolls to be inferior.
the DD scrolls I have gotten around, my bard always carried the spell, my cleric casts it from dragonmarks and my sorc
asks parties...what is DD?
CK was useful, back in the day it persisted longer.
My sorc, my bard, my wiz and my rogue all have a collection of these scrolls...well..except for DD, which is the only
one that is really useful anymore...DD scrolls get used soon after receiving them.

The scrolls, I bought a stack of 100 of FW and CK back in the week before they were pulled from the shops, the other
300+ I accumulated through looting and sent to a alt with a free bank slot.

The aren't worth the velum they are written on.
But I keep them, as a reminder of times when my bard had access to damaging spells...fond memories.

[ThrasherGT]

Interestingly enough, it seems to me that the new versions of the removed spell scrolls fit what you said about heal scrolls.

I can find no compelling reason not to put those scrolls back in....can you?

Honestly, no. But, having used them before I ran out, I think You would find them a complete waste of money. In a word, They're Awful, and that was My opinion when the cap was 10. Now, they would be even more useless..................

[lissa_981]

Honestly, no. But, having used them before I ran out, I think You would find them a complete waste of money. In a word, They're Awful, and that was My opinion when the cap was 10. Now, they would be even more useless..................


Seems this is either a really good argument to put them back in...or to find some way to curb the "useful" scrolls.

As I said, cherry-picking sucks...nerf or don't.

[thatguy]

Scrolls are not an exploit. Please stop trying to remove options from your fellow players.

Thank you.

Very well said, I agree. Using scrolls is not an exploit. Oh, and for what its worth, this is not PNP, so get over it!

[Raithe]

Some points I think need to be clarified for this thread:

1) The shroud has been completed with an 11 ranger/1 bard party at the very least. Heal scrolls were probably used, but the point remains that self-sufficiency works everywhere healbots do. Changing that gameplay dynamic will not affect completability.

2) Removing unlimited scrolls and wands, even potions from vendors would make it more desirable to prepare and plan for the most costly quests and to use better balanced quests to obtain the necessary equipment. I see that as an improvement in gameplay.

3) Removing unlimited scrolls, wand, and potions would make zerging a rather unpopular playstyle. IMO, a definite improvement in gameplay.

4) Removing unlimited scrolls, wands, and potions would make finding such equipment in a quest an actual reward. Again, an improvement in gameplay.

5) UMD is currently too valuable. No other skill has been made similarly overpowered. Removing unlimited scrolls and wands from vendors would go a long way to bringing UMD back in line with the other skills - which is a gameplay improvement.

6) Bards are overpowered. Anyone who doesn't believe that or doesn't understand how or why, has never played a bard in DDO to its potential. Making scrolls less readily available would help in bringing them more in line with other classes, and that is a gameplay improvement.

7) Scrolls that have a save are far less useful than healing and buffing scrolls that do not. Most of the useful healing and buffing scrolls are divine in nature, while the majority of high level arcane scrolls have a save. Removing unlimited scrolls from vendors would help balance arcane and divine scroll casting so that one wasn't massively more useful, a gameplay improvement.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

if they ever consider removing scrolls from venders, they need to add huge scroll cases to the game, so UMD users can collect a wide variety of different scrolls from chests, to make their skill worthwhile.

But if we would just get rid of the AH, that would get rid of plat farmers and price gauging and the ridiculous amount of wealth that some people have........and that would solve the problem...

Believe me. there is no way, any of my toons could afford scrolls in the amounts some people seem to use for every adventure.

get rid of the money and you solve the problem.

[ThrasherGT]

Some points I think need to be clarified for this thread:

1) The shroud has been completed with an 11 ranger/1 bard party at the very least. Heal scrolls were probably used, but the point remains that self-sufficiency works everywhere healbots do. Changing that gameplay dynamic will not affect completability.

2) Removing unlimited scrolls and wands, even potions from vendors would make it more desirable to prepare and plan for the most costly quests and to use better balanced quests to obtain the necessary equipment. I see that as an improvement in gameplay.

3) Removing unlimited scrolls, wand, and potions would make zerging a rather unpopular playstyle. IMO, a definite improvement in gameplay.

4) Removing unlimited scrolls, wands, and potions would make finding such equipment in a quest an actual reward. Again, an improvement in gameplay.

5) UMD is currently too valuable. No other skill has been made similarly overpowered. Removing unlimited scrolls and wands from vendors would go a long way to bringing UMD back in line with the other skills - which is a gameplay improvement.

6) Bards are overpowered. Anyone who doesn't believe that or doesn't understand how or why, has never played a bard in DDO to its potential. Making scrolls less readily available would help in bringing them more in line with other classes, and that is a gameplay improvement.

7) Scrolls that have a save are far less useful than healing and buffing scrolls that do not. Most of the useful healing and buffing scrolls are divine in nature, while the majority of high level arcane scrolls have a save. Removing unlimited scrolls from vendors would help balance arcane and divine scroll casting so that one wasn't massively more useful, a gameplay improvement.

Sorry, I disagree. It sounds like these are things that would make You happy, but they certainly would not make Me happy. DDO is a great game. What You are suggesting is nothing less than a total rewrite of the game from the bottom up, as most other aspects in the game would have to adjusted to compensate for the changes. Do I wish that DDO was more like D&D? Maybe, But if that was the case, it would certainly be much, much different than what it is now. Would that be better? Who knows.

[Raithe]

What You are suggesting is nothing less than a total rewrite of the game from the bottom up, as most other aspects in the game would have to adjusted to compensate for the changes.

No, I was addressing the conversation from the position of changing no other game mechanics. There are a hundred other aspects of the game that need adjusted before this aspect, but I deferred those topics to another thread. Just as prior removal of scrolls from the vendors changed gameplay in positive ways without having to "rewrite" anything else, additional removal will accomplish similar improvements.

I would also point out that we have fairly good evidence that current gameplay mechanics only appeal to about 1 in 3 D&D fans that try the game, and even then on only a somewhat-temporary basis. Claiming that changing mechanics will alienate existing players (while it could attract twice that many players) is not very noteworthy.

[Angelus_dead]

CK, SF, BB, and WoF were, IMO broken before they removed them from the game:
1. their duration was insanely long.
2. If You had the scroll, there was no reason to ever take the spell.
Somewhat true in point #2. Metamagic costs have changed since then, and altered that relationship.

Back when Wall of Fire first came out (after module 2), it was usually a mistake to maximize or empower it. To spend 3x mana for 2x damage was a waste of spellpoints, when you could simply wait twice as long instead. But after module 5 slashed the costs of metamagic feats it became cost-effective to use Empower or Maximize all the time. But of course, the scroll versions did not gain that improvement, so they became a relatively less helpful choice.

Also there was an earlier update that nerfed the duration of things like CK and SF, which also weakened the scroll forms.

[Ki_Draken_Magus]

Then explain the removal of the other scrolls....they removed flexibility from the game.

Cherry-picking sucks, either nerf scrolls or don't.



Sorry if I sound angry at you, don't take offense, it's just a frustrating situation.



It really boils down to a "knee-jerk" reaction by the developer. Were people using Cloudkill and Bladebarrier scrolls to excess? They were, becuase it was a very (cost) effective way to kill off static non moving mobs.

Basically, the developers came up with a hack to compensate for extremely poor MOB AI.

It's pretty much the same for every MMO I've ever played.

[Cahira]

6) Bards are overpowered. Anyone who doesn't believe that or doesn't understand how or why, has never played a bard in DDO to its potential. Making scrolls less readily available would help in bringing them more in line with other classes, and that is a gameplay improvement.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Here are some of the reasons why:

1. A bard cannot compare to a wizard or sorcerer when doing damage spells (my Greater Shout with a Superior Potency item is around 80 to 90 pts of damage...no where close to most of the damage spells that a wizard or sorcerer has access to).

2. A bard cannot compare to a cleric for healing. Yes, a bard can do quite a bit of healing, but a completely heal-specced bard is not going to be quite as good as a completely heal-specced cleric (yes, heal scrolls are wonderful...but they cap at 110pts as opposed to however high a cleric can get by just casting the spell).

3. A fighting specced bard will not be quite as good as a fighting specced fighter, paladin, barbarian, or ranger. Yes, the songs are fantastically awesome when fully enhanced, but put those on a bard and a fighter and see which one has the better to-hit or damage numbers. Bards have a lower BAB than fighters, so an equally specced bard will fall short of the fighter.

4. Without multi-classing, a bard cannot do thiefly things like disable traps or pick locks (unless they have a 10th level knock wand and the DC of the lock is low enough).

5. Crowd Control--here is one place where bards truly shine. But even here with their spells and the heighten feat, they will still be 2 lower on DC than an equally specced wizard or sorcerer. Without heighten, then it varies. Otto's Resistable Dance will always be 1 pt lower on DC because it's a level 1 spell for bards and a level 2 spell for wizards. Fascinate may be one of the best and most overpowered abilities in the game...however, good luck trying to get a group of zerging 2-handed fighters to stand still for the 6 seconds it takes for the song to take effect...then wait for the one with Great Cleave to run up behind you just as you finish to break the fascinate on every single Mob there.

6. Buffs--here is the one place where I would say that bards are unsurpassed. The non-dispellable song buffs are marvelous...but that is the bard's biggest strength. All the other things can be done and can be done well...but can always be done better by a different class.

A bard can do almost anything in the game, yes. But they don't do it as well as the classes designed for it. That's why I'm gonna have to disagree with you about bards being overpowered.

[DoctorWhofan]

There is more than one of these threads going around? What this is the new topic for the week?

Seriously, people I am not understanding how any of you find heal, raise dead, greater heroism, restoration scrolls exploitative in the game.

Make me an argument I can actually debate. Heal and raise dead are cost prohibitive for a reason. I spam neither. Greater Heroism? Huh? Restoration... ummm well I can't even think how this could be. Great Restoration scrolls are used sparingly and situationally only as far as I know.

So please... make me a believer!

See ya in Stormreach,

-R


yeah, there is. See my comments in the other thread.

[Alavatar]

Scrolls are an enormous money sink for the game. Specifically, Heal and Raise Dead scrolls. Removing those from Vendors would end up keeping more money in the game.

[Durack]

3) Removing unlimited scrolls, wand, and potions would make zerging a rather unpopular playstyle. IMO, a definite improvement in gameplay.

4) Removing unlimited scrolls, wands, and potions would make finding such equipment in a quest an actual reward. Again, an improvement in gameplay.

.

you pug alot don't you... why oh why do people complain about zerging... time management in my opinion why sit there for an hour in a quest when it can be knocked out in 20 min.... All this talk of stragety, taking time, going slow, is just building a defense for someone's inability to kill & go..Multitasking, build game skills,,, Afterall this ain't Pen&Paper it's not a game of all thinking & stragety it has tons of smash and kill aspects/dynamics to it thats why I play. Otherwise I'd be with all the EMO's at the bookstore talking about gnomes and my feelings.. Kill on the fly is my motto.. Blitzkrieg "lightning war" sounds fun, no.... You ever play 1st person shooter's go look at thier forum boards no one complains there about a fast paced game..

All the what if''s .. I got one . What if worms had machine guns ..Birds wouldn't (edited for t.v.) mess with them... Play your way, Play my way, but don't bring you opinion about what else should be taken out of the game. Here's a thought, you don't like buying unlimited scrolls then don't buy them it's as siple as that. Find a group of cheapskates and live of the land so to speak.. Take you time dungeon crawling and when you finish me & my crew will be already finished with 3 other quests. :eek::eek::eek:

[Durack]

Oh, and for what its worth, this is not PNP, so get over it!

Here, here, ....

[DelScorcho]

For the record, I think the exploit debate of 2008 ended with the devs submitting a general definition, which either applied to all things or nothing, depending on who was reading them. No punishment was really described for violations of the ToS, and nothing was really mentioned about how these violations would be enforced, although they indicated a process by which players could report other players. They also provided for a method to contact the developers if you wanted to determine if a particular action was a violation. If you want to know if scroll casting is a violation, contact the devs. You would be foolish to do so, as if you continued these actions after being notified that it was a violation, you would be knowingly violating the ToS. Otherwise, you are merely delving in the wonderful ambiguity that is tactics vs. exploits.