Shield blocking in an active combat system

[Rindalathar]

You know, I was thinking the other day about why few players seem to take advantage of shield blocking. I mean actively using it while meleeing. I've seen some PvPers use it very effectively to mitigate damage, since some are very good at anticipating other's swings, etc.

Now, I'm not any shield blocking guru, but I've been playing around with it lately and I'm convinced that with some more practice I could really start realizing a cost-benefit, especially when orthons are cleaving my butt to shreds in the Shroud. Now, the prevailing logic has been that a high DPS meant that things like shield blocking were slightly impractical because you're extending a combat that could be over faster by simply beating your opponent into the dirt quicker. Dead mob=no potential damage taken. But, the Shroud (especially on elite) has brought us skyrocketing HP for our opponents. Thus, we've been going back to stat. damaging tactics and leaning heavily on the one-trick pony...vorpals. This sometimes tends to turn battles into wars of attrition while we wait for that magic 20 to turn up.

Now, I ask the community, assuming that higher levels will directly correlate with higher monster HP, does shield blocking need another look or will it simply be used sparingly like in the game's current state?

[Club'in]

I would love to see active shield blocking in this game. As it is, with the lag between client and server, it is almost impossible to effectively do it (and no, not THAT lag, the normal lag between you and the rest of the game world. try a short dash race between you and another character, with a countdown to start in voice chat, and a third party watching the finish line). Also, I use the keyboard keys QWEASD for all my movement, supplemented by mouse drags to change direction. This makes it extremely difficult for this old gamer to effectively use the Shift key for blocking. Is there ANYONE out there actively blocking in melee? I mean throwing up your shield in between 3 or 4 whacks with your sword. If so, are you using the same keys I do for moving/blocking?

[Mockduck]

Excellent post. I've tried to use shield blocking more myself in recent weeks but haven't quite gotten the knack of it yet. I need to coordinate my fingers better to block, unblock and then attack. I tend to attack with the shield too much when I try to actively shield block during combat.

On a somewhat related note, I've really begun using Tumble a lot more during combat on my ranger. It's really helped me with the kill count!

[ehcsztein]

Is there ANYONE out there actively blocking in melee? I mean throwing up your shield in between 3 or 4 whacks with your sword. If so, are you using the same keys I do for moving/blocking?


I actively shield block from time to time during combat, it's a by-product from tumbling into and out of danger a lot with my cleric.

However I set up my num-pad for movement (with the "enter" key as block and "+" as jump) as I mouse left handed.

[Hafeal]

I agree.

I have an 8th level fighter whom I have really concentrated on shield use, bashing and blocking. Although I have not "quantified" it, I find you can time things (excluding lag). It really keeps my health up.

Yeah, it can take a few extra swings to take a creature down if I am not 2 weapon fighting. I find it a small price to pay, especially in a full group where a ranger or rogue can 2 weapon and/or back-stab for good damage. If I use intimidate, the shield helps defray a lot of damage as a result of aggro.

[Nevthial]

I use it with decent effectiveness on my Fighter 3 / Paladin 6 when I need extra AC and am not two weapon fighting. It helps alot since the character in question only has 110 hp currently. :) It took awhile to get used to attack animations and learn to "get in sync" . My entire keyboard is remapped and I don't use a mouse much on my melee types. ( Which helps me somewhat.) It does extend a battle, but if I come out undamaged, it is worth it. ( Whats a few more seconds? )

I will say this, it is "finger intensive" and edge of your seat play.

[Rindalathar]

a few more thoughts here...

If we're talking about shield blocking and discussing the "AC matters vs. doesn't matter" argument, then wouldn't those who feel AC is of little value at higher levels consider shield blocking as a viable defensive alternative. Granted, it's more work, since AC is passive, but what kind of attack bonuses will we be facing at level 20?

Also, could we possibly see feats or enhancement lines that would, for instance, increase the about of damage mitigated by shield blocking? --> i.e. Improved Shield Blocking or Shield Blocking Mastery kind of stuff.

Thing is, I'm just trying think a little here about other ways we as players could play smarter than simply expecting new content to encourage us to find all the new beat-down toys right away. I just don't want to see another Pit Fiend fight where it takes 20 minutes of face-to-face smackdown time to win, since he's sitting at billion hit points. I honestly find it kinda boring.

[Deaths_ward]

a few more thoughts here...

If we're talking about shield blocking and discussing the "AC matters vs. doesn't matter" argument, then wouldn't those who feel AC is of little value at higher levels consider shield blocking as a viable defensive alternative. Granted, it's more work, since AC is passive, but what kind of attack bonuses will we be facing at level 20?

Also, could we possibly see feats or enhancement lines that would, for instance, increase the about of damage mitigated by shield blocking? --> i.e. Improved Shield Blocking or Shield Blocking Mastery kind of stuff.

Thing is, I'm just trying think a little here about other ways we as players could play smarter than simply expecting new content to encourage us to find all the new beat-down toys right away. I just don't want to see another Pit Fiend fight where it takes 20 minutes of face-to-face smackdown time to win, since he's sitting at billion hit points. I honestly find it kinda boring.

We do have shield mastery, and improved Shield mastery, or something very close. I know my Paladin/Fighter has both, putting up her Adamantine Tower shield gives her a blocking DR of 18 with the DR 1/- from the shield.

[Borrigain]

Depends.

As a FPS twitch gamer, I'm actually quite good at it.

Problem is, depends on party. A full group of right-click-real-fast types and forget it, stuff dies too fast, I just click like crazy too.

But.....if I'm solo, or in short-man group, or with a "sub-optimal" loadout party, I do it all the time.

If you have the patience, you can actually learn the attack patterns of different monsters and anticipate when to block. Occasionally, I'll miss the timing due to the lag of the game, but most of the time, I'll block an attack, side-step and get a nice flanking attack in.

Borr.

[Mindspat]

Shield Blocking, Intimidate and Diplomacy... most players dont' know these things exist.

[suitepotato]

I use a gamepad and have Nintendo veteran twitch skills on it. The game doesn't respond to shield block fast enough to be useful. Once you initiate an action, it tends to keep going until returning to the start of the action where you can then block. If you can accept the limited speed with which it responds, cool. If not, then it isn't working for you. Doesn't work for me and evidently most others given that the time to destroy an enemy by maximizing DPS and stat DPS at the same time in concert with fortification and armor class enhancement is the overwhelmingly prevalent way.

We need more fluid combat sequences. Mortal Kombat managed these years ago. Tapping out a shield block sequence, while turning to one side a certain amount and then attacking should cause the toon to turn in the appropriate direction while putting up the shield opposite that (turn to the right and the shield blocks attacks at your left) and you bring your weapon over your shield to stab them (ala the Spartans in 300).

Of course, it would mean a lot of redoing of stuff and taking time away from the massive resources needed to keep slimes from attempting to flank.

[Mindspat]

stuff.

Shield Block works and it works well in its current form while a player who employs it is a great asset to any group.

Forgoing effecientcy for speed is a playstyle rather then a mechanic.

[Samadhi]

I would love to see active shield blocking in this game. As it is, with the lag between client and server, it is almost impossible to effectively do it (and no, not THAT lag, the normal lag between you and the rest of the game world. try a short dash race between you and another character, with a countdown to start in voice chat, and a third party watching the finish line). Also, I use the keyboard keys QWEASD for all my movement, supplemented by mouse drags to change direction. This makes it extremely difficult for this old gamer to effectively use the Shift key for blocking. Is there ANYONE out there actively blocking in melee? I mean throwing up your shield in between 3 or 4 whacks with your sword. If so, are you using the same keys I do for moving/blocking?

I am actively blocking quite a lot (and to date only had one person scream at me for doing it :P ). I shifted my movement keys to WERSDF and use A as my block key.

[Zuldar]

I would love to see active shield blocking in this game. As it is, with the lag between client and server, it is almost impossible to effectively do it (and no, not THAT lag, the normal lag between you and the rest of the game world. try a short dash race between you and another character, with a countdown to start in voice chat, and a third party watching the finish line). Also, I use the keyboard keys QWEASD for all my movement, supplemented by mouse drags to change direction. This makes it extremely difficult for this old gamer to effectively use the Shift key for blocking. Is there ANYONE out there actively blocking in melee? I mean throwing up your shield in between 3 or 4 whacks with your sword. If so, are you using the same keys I do for moving/blocking?

What you could do is get a mouse with extra buttons, then you could map block to the mouse.

[captain1z]

I would love to see active shield blocking in this game. As it is, with the lag between client and server, it is almost impossible to effectively do it (and no, not THAT lag, the normal lag between you and the rest of the game world. try a short dash race between you and another character, with a countdown to start in voice chat, and a third party watching the finish line). Also, I use the keyboard keys QWEASD for all my movement, supplemented by mouse drags to change direction. This makes it extremely difficult for this old gamer to effectively use the Shift key for blocking. Is there ANYONE out there actively blocking in melee? I mean throwing up your shield in between 3 or 4 whacks with your sword. If so, are you using the same keys I do for moving/blocking?

I use the keys as u do and I actively block (with my left pinky). I block when I see a big hit coming (cleave, posion sting, wraith attack, or giant swings) it effectively nulls any benefit the enemy would get out of the attack. When ogres rev up for their burst attacks I block if I cant get out of the way....also blocking on the ground will save your life.

there is a delay in blocking if you've been attacking just before.

[Borror0]

Shield Blocking, Intimidate and Diplomacy... most players dont' know these things exist.

Intimi-what?:rolleyes:

[Club'in]

Good tip, Zuldar. But I currently have my additional mouse buttons configured as: depressing the roller button activates Improved Trip, side button 1 activates Cleave, side button 2 activates Great Cleave. I'm out of buttons. I use trip almost everytime the timer resets, and both cleave and great cleave on the side buttons means I don't really need to remember which is set to which. I usually fire them off one after the other.

Thanks, Samadhi. I might need to try that configuration out. It would be tough to get used to, since I've been using the current config for over two years.

Good tips from you as well, captain1z. Appreciate the response. Just haven't been able to effectively contort my fingers properly. I tend to just blow off the movement keys and start scrambling for shift if a wraith/ogre/scorp is winding up for the big whack. I'm old and slow, though, so probably have a poor effective response percentage.

Is it possible to implement a shield block by depressing both mouse keys at once? That might be a little more organic (but would make the shield bash tougher. And I really believe the block should happen immediately, superseding any other actions that have been initiated but not completed.

[Karranor]

Depends.

As a FPS twitch gamer, I'm actually quite good at it.

Problem is, depends on party. A full group of right-click-real-fast types and forget it, stuff dies too fast, I just click like crazy too.

But.....if I'm solo, or in short-man group, or with a "sub-optimal" loadout party, I do it all the time.

If you have the patience, you can actually learn the attack patterns of different monsters and anticipate when to block. Occasionally, I'll miss the timing due to the lag of the game, but most of the time, I'll block an attack, side-step and get a nice flanking attack in.

Borr.

That is the key right there. Learning the patterns of mobs you can get this down to an art. It is great for all classes to block the giants trip, the wraiths stat drain attack and the minos charge. Practice it, use it, and find another whole side to this great active combat system. Use it to shield block for archers or casters. Be a shield wall for the cleric in times of need. There are lots of uses for this and someone who knows it is a boon to any group.

ps. I use the left shift key. I actually just rest my pinky on it while I am fighting and moving using awsd. Gravy!

[DSL]

That is the key right there. Learning the patterns of mobs you can get this down to an art. It is great for all classes to block the giants trip, the wraiths stat drain attack and the minos charge. Practice it, use it, and find another whole side to this great active combat system. Use it to shield block for archers or casters. Be a shield wall for the cleric in times of need. There are lots of uses for this and someone who knows it is a boon to any group.

ps. I use the left shift key. I actually just rest my pinky on it while I am fighting and moving using awsd. Gravy!


That's pretty much how I do it too. My pinky alternates between tab and shift, but I do have long fingers...

Blocking is great against archers, and works well against giants, who have a slow attack which is telegraphed well, making it relatively easy to time. The trick is not to get too greedy with your attacks, i.e. don't make a full attack sequence, and you'll be able to block their attack. The outdoor part of the threnal ruins is a great place to practice this. While it remains very useful for blocking special attacks, most other creatures have attacks that are too fast to completely block reactively, but you can still reduce your damage exposure by holding your block stance until immediately after you enemy attacks, then take a couple of swings, and go back to blocking. With the blocking feats, you will notice a huge difference in damage taken.

[Pellegro]

Would love to see comment here from one of the devs who've been here from the beginning, but I was under the impression that the original design of the game was to use lots of shield blocking. That melee was a slower more deliberate affair.

I wish I could remember what I had read that made me think that ....

Anyway, anyone else remember that? That the original melee system was supposed to be more tactical in using shield blocking, the special attacks, the tumbles, etc. I guess like a modified turn-based system with 6 second "rounds" during which you'd pick your action(s). Kinda more like a traditional MMO instead of the run circles/real-time combat we have now.

[rimble]

I love trading off damage with other good shield blockers. I either do enough damage or Intimidate to get aggro, and then shield block while everyone else attacks. As soon as someone else gets aggro now THEY shield block and the rest of us continue attacking. Can make a difference with the right characters and party.

Yeah, to add after seeing Talon's post below, to be clear, I haven't pulled off much successful level 14+ shield blocking.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I've had trouble doing it and timing swings.

But I do use it when potion healing.
And I do have a shieldbashing build.

Things I've learned.....those Orthons hit hard no matter what you do. it helps but not much.

Shieldblocking/bashing has it's place.....but quickly looses effectiveness after lvl 8 or so. The monsters just hit too hard after that.

makes you invincible in the Harbor though! :)

[DSL]

Would love to see comment here from one of the devs who've been here from the beginning, but I was under the impression that the original design of the game was to use lots of shield blocking. That melee was a slower more deliberate affair.

I wish I could remember what I had read that made me think that ....

Anyway, anyone else remember that? That the original melee system was supposed to be more tactical in using shield blocking, the special attacks, the tumbles, etc. I guess like a modified turn-based system with 6 second "rounds" during which you'd pick your action(s). Kinda more like a traditional MMO instead of the run circles/real-time combat we have now.

I certainly used it a lot more at lower levels, back in the game's salad days, especially when soloing. I think, though they intended for it to more ubiquitous and reactive, that the lag issues were too big of a limiting factor. Still, one of the nice things about DDO is that it's there if you want to use it, but you can get by just fine without relying on it, essentially remaining a viable, if somewhat unpopular, combat option.