Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition (PSA)

[Kistilan]

Hey all-

Not a plug, but an announcement. Dungeons and Dragons (PnP D&D) will be rewriting the Multiverse as we know it yet again with 4th Edition's release on June 7, 2008. 39 Days to launch of something new and yet hopefully familiar!

So blow off the dice's dusty mantle, sharpen the pencil's wit and dream of a new realm of possibilities -- the adventure begins again.

"The drums are louder. They are coming." - Moria Tome, Final Entry.

PS: Yeah, I know some of you know. Just is just a tracker -- didn't see one on the main page for the D&D PnP Forum.

[MerlinSylver]

Ah, yes... WotC's next money pig. I admit the D20 system fixed a lot of problems with the old system, but IMO, turned D&D from a role-playing game into a tactics-based board game. I remember playing old school D&D sprawled out on a sofa, with the other gamers spralwed out on other furniture in other parts of the room... or huddling outside for three hours in character, while we smoked and snuck my best friend's father's beers out of the fridge.

A D&D game these days, though, requires a table, and a map. Most of the huddling outside (though still smoking), is done in conversation of plusses and minuses, and feats, and maneuvers. And the beer is just a necessary nerve-soother.

I really hope 4th edition makes D&D a role-playing game again, rather than a glorified form of Talisman (and if any of you know what I mean, that should be enough gamer's cred to get me in the door).

[Kistilan]

Ah, yes... WotC's next money pig. I admit the D20 system fixed a lot of problems with the old system, but IMO, turned D&D from a role-playing game into a tactics-based board game. I remember playing old school D&D sprawled out on a sofa, with the other gamers spralwed out on other furniture in other parts of the room... or huddling outside for three hours in character, while we smoked and snuck my best friend's father's beers out of the fridge.

A D&D game these days, though, requires a table, and a map. Most of the huddling outside (though still smoking), is done in conversation of plusses and minuses, and feats, and maneuvers. And the beer is just a necessary nerve-soother.

I really hope 4th edition makes D&D a role-playing game again, rather than a glorified form of Talisman (and if any of you know what I mean, that should be enough gamer's cred to get me in the door).

I agree with you on that one. I never was the kid sneaking beers and smokes while playing, but 1st and 2nd definitely were much more "Hey, act like a character" vs "Hey, figure out how your character can fight better." Man, I remember being mystified for hours just wandering into a tavern and seeing that 1 item that didn't look quite right in that 1 person's possession. I guess this lead to a natural tendency to playing mages and thieves. *L*

I think the entire rewriting of the multiverse ecology and "the norm" will help some of the "wonder that is my character in this strange new land" come back.

And onward now, 34 Days to the Release of D&D 4th Edition on June 7, 2008!

[ShadesofGreen]

Honeslty, I'm a little scared. I've heard they changed things so it would be less confusing to play and more "new player" friendly. I'm all for that for sure, but I've also heard they axed both bards and gnomes while adding a dragon-kin race?

I know any good DM can pick and chose their game parameters, so gnomes and bard can still exist, but I wonder why WotC would chose to do something like that.

[Kistilan]

Wonders will never cease. I am very unsure why they did the changes of some things, but the good news is you are the GM/DM, not WotC, so you can make and break your grame utilizing any of the versions of D&D. ^_^

I just wanted to throw it out there that I was astounded by the $34.95 price tag on each of the 3 core books (thought they'd be $29.95), so I checked on Amazon.Com and found if you preorder all three in a SET, you save about $30 and free shipping. For those who order, regardless of whether you adopt the system, here's some spare change back to ya.

I personally want to read the legends, myths and ecology of the new system. I'll likely remain in 3.0/3.5 ED system, but utilize some of their ideas in the 4th Ed.

T-minus 29 Days til Launch, folks!!! :)

[cdbd3rd]

Honeslty, I'm a little scared. I've heard they changed things so it would be less confusing to play and more "new player" friendly. I'm all for that for sure, but I've also heard they axed both bards and gnomes while adding a dragon-kin race?

I know any good DM can pick and chose their game parameters, so gnomes and bard can still exist, but I wonder why WotC would chose to do something like that.


IMO -- because the youngsters (munchkins) of our era ....

well, I say "our" as a basic/1st/2nd edition player, and the munchkins were just entering the scene as little whippersnappers.

...have now grown up and are the sect with the biggest block of disposable income to drop on gaming supplies. To make sure they draw in those players, they're adjusting the rules/settings to fit what those players are looking for in the game.

That's my guess, anyway.

[Kistilan]

Just an Update...

24 Days til D&D 4th Edition is released!!! If you're going to purchase all 3 books, hit up Amazon for the bundle 'cuz it's over a $30 savings. I look forward to discussing the system in-depth after June 7th!

Good gaming and may the dice roll sunny-side up.

[el_diablo]

I was lucky enough to go to a 4th edition preview event in calgary (only 2 in Canada) and it was ok.
The new rules do speed up the game which in 3rd could get very bogged down. I do agree that rules are leaning toward a tactical game, nobody says you cant game on your couch like the old days, thats the beaty of d&d it can be whatever you make it. In 4th powers are going to be like feats were to 3rd there are going to be books and books of powers to choose from. Powers I think will take a bit of creativity away but we will have to see how many and the depth of them before judging.

[Kistilan]

18 Days until the Release of 4th Edition. :)

[Uska]

I am so psyched just wish the books were coming out about a week earlier as I am running one of the game days on the 7th but I wont get my books until the following week ahh well I will have enough information to give myself and the players a decent taste

[el_diablo]

unofficially if you search the web there are enough tidbits to play parts of the dnd experience adventure, thats what we are doing. The characters are posted at wizards.

[Kistilan]

It's SEVEN DAYS until Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition is released. *twitches*

[vainangel]

Ah, yes... WotC's next money pig. I admit the D20 system fixed a lot of problems with the old system, but IMO, turned D&D from a role-playing game into a tactics-based board game. I remember playing old school D&D sprawled out on a sofa, with the other gamers spralwed out on other furniture in other parts of the room... or huddling outside for three hours in character, while we smoked and snuck my best friend's father's beers out of the fridge.

A D&D game these days, though, requires a table, and a map. Most of the huddling outside (though still smoking), is done in conversation of plusses and minuses, and feats, and maneuvers. And the beer is just a necessary nerve-soother.

I really hope 4th edition makes D&D a role-playing game again, rather than a glorified form of Talisman (and if any of you know what I mean, that should be enough gamer's cred to get me in the door).

Talisman?
When DnD turned into a mini-board game I got to not like it. I turned to WoD games like MAGE and Vampire. COuld just focus on the charaters and the story and the rules were set dressings. The times I have DMed DnD, I ignore many dice rolls in foavor of getting a fight done in 20 min over and hour.

I am very excited about a new DnD version. More people should play these.

[Razordenial]

I personally have my concerns about this edition. The group that I am playing with is running the Keep of the Shadowfell modulette that was released in the 4e rules. So here are some pointers that I can provide from my personal opinion about the new system. REMEMBER THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION:


PRO
- The new system has definitely taken the grind of having to resource every little bonus and minus and turned it into a standardized ruleset. Meaning you can play the game without having to make sure you have all of the little quirks and nuisances of the extra resource books.

- The new Paragon class really expands into Prestige Class and Epic Classes.

- The new Experience Tally PLAYER CHARACTER Side is easier to advance in. Leveling from one level to another is quicker.

- The new Experience Tally DUNGEON MASTER Side is definitely easier. You can control what a party faces by simply creating an encounter around the total amount of Experience you want the party to encounter. Monsters now have more of an experience total than a DC so you can have a group face a Centralized Boss Monster and have low HP minions as the rest of the encounter.

- The new Hit Point Total. Even though it is still Constitution based, you start out with a lot more HP at level 1 than before. No longer does a wizard start with a maximum of 4 hit points, but based on his constitution plus bonuses, a wizard can start out with anywhere from 6 to 25 HP.

- The new Healing Surge system is a definite plus. It allows people to heal themselves for 1/4 of their total HP for X amount of times per rest.

- Turned Based Encounters have become more precise and more tactical based, yet each character has a definite role they bring to the encounter. Overall, depending on the amount of creatures on the tileset in the encounter, you can go from 5 rounds per encounter until I believe we went close to 30 rounds. And that was a group of 5 individuals with Pre-gen characters against 4 Goblins, 4 Goblin minions, and a Large Spider.

- Gone are the days of 1 spell and out encounters. Clerics, Wizards, Rangers, and Magical users now can cast spells from once per encounter to at will per encounter. So literally, a level 2 Cleric can cast Cure Light Wounds once on an ally. Go about the encounter. Rest for 5 minutes after the encounter is over. And then have Cure Light Wounds ready for the next encounter.

- AC / Fortitude / Reflex / Will = DEFENSE NOW! You have a specific number that you roll against, and that's it. Fort/Will/Reflex saves are no longer bonuses but actual defenses now.

- Skills are no longer ranks. You get the modifier from your Ability Modifier, and +5 if you train the skill. You can only have some many trained skills based on your character class.

- To Hit, Attack, Initiative Bonuses now go up +1 every even level. And with some classes sooner than that.

- Skills have been merged with other skills. Example: Spot, Search, Listen are now Preception.

- Detect Spells. GONE! (Yes I know it's a CON as well). No longer can wizards, sorcerors, clerics use powers like DETECT EVIL to spot out the evil boss out of the crowd.

- PLUS A LOT MORE PROS TO COME ONCE 4e IS RELEASED!



CON

- Powers / Spells / Attacks are too card based in feel. Even though you don't actually have cards to represent the powers themselves, it's easy to use the template from the system to make the powers into cards. A cleric can no longer burn a spell to cast another spell of each or lesser level.

- The modulette monsters are EXTREMELY overpowered. A group of 3 kobolds should NOT be able to wipe a group of 5 level 1 Player Characters.

- Say buh bye Monk, Druid, Sorceror. Say hello Role Based Classes. A cleric and a warlord is a Leader, who buffs and gives bonuses to other players. A paladin and fighter are supposed to be tanks yet they are more crowd controllers. A ranger and a rogue are strikers, meaning that are damage dealers. A warlock and a wizard are controller, i.e. crowd control with an array of Area of Effect powers. After playing the group with the pre-gens given, the feel of the modulette with the new 4e rules seemed more MMO feel than PnP feel.

- Multi-classing. GONE! You have to take powers and feats to be able to do some of the other powers and feats of other classes.

- The Leveling System is now pure class based. Meaning if you start as a rogue, until you hit level 30, you are a rogue with a specific paragon class. And the maximum level is now 30. There's nothing after that. Finished, done, game over.

- Multiple attacks per turn. Unless you have a specific feat, you now have to spend 1 ACTION POINT to get in a second attack or spell or heal.

- Identify and Detect Spells. GONE! Any person who spends enough time looking over an object can identify an item. Identifying a magical item is now a roll against KNOWLEDGE Arcana. If you have Arcana trained, or have a decent bonus in it, you can simply roll to see if you identify the magic, though untrained attempts are given a -2 to attempt.

- Crafting is now inherit in the system. It's a character background plot point. So if you state that your father taught you every trick in the book when it comes to brewing ale, if you spend enough time on the action, you can brew masterwork quality ales.

- PLUS A LOT MORE CONS TO COME ONCE 4e IS RELEASED!



Overall, though 3.5e is a grind and a resource hog when it comes to class specifics, some things they changed are really good. Others make me go "Why in the hell did they do it like that?". Personally, for my own Homebrew campaign, I'm going to wait until 4e matures into 4.5 more than likely soon. Or if the group decides, I'll start incorporating a lot of the changes into my 3.5e campaign but relatively keep the ruleset 3.5e with House Rules.

[Kistilan]

I am not-too-thrilled that the end game is level 30. It lacks the essence of demi-gods and godliness. How are gods made. Where do they come from. Why should they be stronger than a level 30 if level 30 is the maximum level available -- all gods are level 30 is what this rule seems to imply -- OR that gods found a way to go beyond level 30. I don't like it.

Pretty sure I'll stay 3.5 and use the environment aspects of 4th in some quests but stay mechanically 3.5. I won't be investing a lot of $$ into 4th unless there is an ecology or atmosphere I want or adventure that I will have to convert on my own since I've been told there is no true conversion from 3.5 to 4th.

[Electric_Pulses]

im gonna miss magic users starting out with 3 or 4 health, it made a campaign of new characters real intense right off the bat due to being so easily killed it made a more suspensful game play where every dice roll having to do with that lvl 1 magic user was epic!

[Kistilan]

im gonna miss magic users starting out with 3 or 4 health, it made a campaign of new characters real intense right off the bat due to being so easily killed it made a more suspensful game play where every dice roll having to do with that lvl 1 magic user was epic!

I totally agree. Getting to level 3rd level was an amazing feat in both second and to an extent, third.

Now everyone has SWAG and can remem spells for encounters in 5 minutes after a battle. So much for the 8 hour restbreak that wiz's always enabled their party to do and "practice" skills that way or find trouble away from the camp. *tears run like the river down his cheek, washing away the memories of childhood for the grownup D&D and what it has become*

[Grimdiegn]

Gary is most likely rolling over in his grave with what they have done to his game over the years. This new version is so far from the original it makes me sad.

No way WOTC gets more money out of me for this addition. I have enough pre 4.0 material to run my game for years and will continue to do so.

[Razordenial]

Well, I ordered the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual in the package set that Buy.com is selling for $75 with shipping and tax. I got it Saturday May 31st, 2008. A whole week before the release. Buy.com has always been known for botching release dates and sending out orders a week or more ahead of schedule. But after reading the Player's Handbook, and most of the Dungeon Master's Guide, I have only one thing to say.


IT'S A FREAKING MMO ON A FREAKING TABLE!!! The PHB and DMG read at a rate a 10 year old with dylexsia and ADHD. They have simplified the rules so much that they've taken a lot away from the game. Fear not, PHB2 and quite possibly 4.5e is around the corner. Also, Wizards is going to be taking control over the Forgotten Realms, Ebberon, and Greyhawk Campaign Settings, and out-sourcing the others. Yes, PlaneScape, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Birthright, and Ravenloft are going to become 3rd Party materials (*cries in sadness yet hops for joy*). Hopefully someone with enough since to know what the hell is going on will pick up a Campaign Setting and do it right.


Gary is most likely rolling over in his grave with what they have done to his game over the years. This new version is so far from the original it makes me sad.

No way WOTC gets more money out of me for this addition. I have enough pre 4.0 material to run my game for years and will continue to do so.

Sad thing about this is that the new books are Gygax-Approved material.

Overall, 4th edition does have some fine points about it. The items that they have changed are exceptionally well done, but there is just too much that they should not have changed that have this poor soul looking at a long list of HOUSE RULES he is going to have to redo.

OH! And for those of you that are PSIONICIST FANS.... Fear not! You're now a mage! A FREAKING MAGE!

[Gennerik]

I am not-too-thrilled that the end game is level 30. It lacks the essence of demi-gods and godliness. How are gods made. Where do they come from. Why should they be stronger than a level 30 if level 30 is the maximum level available -- all gods are level 30 is what this rule seems to imply -- OR that gods found a way to go beyond level 30. I don't like it.

Pretty sure I'll stay 3.5 and use the environment aspects of 4th in some quests but stay mechanically 3.5. I won't be investing a lot of $$ into 4th unless there is an ecology or atmosphere I want or adventure that I will have to convert on my own since I've been told there is no true conversion from 3.5 to 4th.

Honestly, level 30 is just where your character stops really caring about the mortal realm as far as it being "home". It's liek outgrowing living with your parents. At some point, you have to get on with your life. The same goes for your characters. By level 30, they're chasing demigod status or other paths to immortality. It makes sense, because even in 3.5 I found most of my later level games leaving the prime material plane, just because there really isn't much of a challenge for characters unless you end of ruling a nation.

And the rules are much more simplified. Some friends and I rolled up characters, and honestly it does feel like an MMO. I get the distinct impression that the rules from the books are more about combat. This can be a good thing or a bad thing, but I think it's more up to interaction between players and DM to fill in gaps of the actual role-playing. Most of your actual powers and feats that you get are all combat related.

[sigtrent]

Having gotten a chance to skim over some of the books already...

There is a fair bit of mis-information in some of these posts reguarding specifics of the game. Not that it matters much in terms of the spirit of the thing.

What I don't quite understand is how any particular version of D&D make people play much differently than any other version of D&D. You can play any version with ot without minies and you can get as complicated or simple as you like in any version of D&D depending on your tastes.

Personaly my memories of childhood D&D are that it was pretty lame most of the time as folks hardly role played and were mostly jut keen on getting XP and treasure for thier characters so they could claim to beat up someone elses character by virtue of their vorpal sword of life stealing etc...

I think a lot of people kind of agrandize the days of youthfull RP. We all used to get a big thrill playing asteroids and donkey as well. Try sitting down to those for a few hours today and see how thrilling they seem. Were all pretty spoiled by generaly better games, but we often look back with nostalgia at the older ones.

[Kistilan]

I agree about the nostalgia, sigtrent. Totally.

I do have to say you might not have played with the right groups of people involving RP. I've played RP table top games with people from every sector. Power-Gamers w/Loot Lust. Skilled Tacticians. Explorers and Wanderers with no idea how to truly play but wanting to check it all out. Those who like to create strife in the party as it is their own entertainment to make everyone else ****ed off for the rest of the game. And then there are the people that actually stay in character and don't metagame. It's pretty cool when you find mixes of these things.

My favorite adventuring groups were role-players with skilled tactics, exploration, power-gamers and character-maxers. When a person can balance all of these things and maintain their character's "pesonality, role and objectives," then you've actually got a very good player entertaining the rest of the group.

I was lucky to play with a group of guys my age that have their names in the credits of many-a-Shadowrun material publication (like the core rulebooks), so they were a blast as people and characters. I never felt like we were simply after loot or power or metagaming. It was all very balanced interaction and revolved around a plot and goals.

Ahh, I'm off my soap box.

1 Day until Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition is released!

[el_diablo]

Well I have my 4th edition phb and I am not so impresed, 1 of my friends loves it, 1 other friend is not so excited as min max is hard to do now. Play testing it myself will see.