TWF vs. ITWF vs. GTWF

[Uproar]

Can anyone point me to how much is gained by taking Improved Two Weapon Fighter over and above basic Two Weapon Fighting?
-> Same for ITWF vs. GTWF?

I know it's common to want more of a good thing, but I've been wondering if taking other feats might prove more beneficial then GTWF or even both ITWF and GTWF.

What about ITWF vs. OTWF? Which is more valuable?

[Westerner]

wiki link (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain)
Look at the two-weapon standing still table.

ITWF gets you 1 extra attack
GTWF gets you 2 extra attacks
STWF isn't implemented.

Generally TWF doesn't pay until you have at least ITWF. It gets really good once you have GTWF and special effects weapons (vorpals/paralyzers/smiters etc.)

OTWF is only helps with a to-hit which doesn't matter as much for end-game.

[MrCow]

Having none of the Two Weapon Feats will impose a to-hit penalty on each hand when using two weapons and the only attack that will strike with both hands is the second attack animation and the fifth attack animation.

Two Weapon Fighting takes off a bulk of the penalty for using two weapons.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting adds the ability to attack with both weapons on the third attack.

Greater Two Weapon Fighting adds the ability to attack with both weapons on the first and fourth attack.

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting takes off the penalty on your offhand for using a large weapon in your offhand.

[Uproar]

Having none of the Two Weapon Feats will impose a to-hit penalty on each hand when using two weapons and the only attack that will strike with both hands is the second attack animation and the fifth attack animation.

Two Weapon Fighting takes off a bulk of the penalty for using two weapons.

Improved Two Weapon Fighting adds the ability to attack with both weapons on the third attack.

Greater Two Weapon Fighting adds the ability to attack with both weapons on the first and fourth attack.

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting takes off the penalty on your offhand for using a large weapon.


Both posts above say similar things, but this one is the key to my question I believe. It states extra attack on third attack for ITWF. As most folks seem to agree you are better off spamming 1st and 2nd attacks, an extra on third doesn't offer much to me.

Now getting to GTWF gives an extra on 1st attack. Maybe that's worth it.

Does the actual way most melee spam attack change things up here?

[Oreg]

Both posts above say similar things, but this one is the key to my question I believe. It states extra attack on third attack for ITWF. As most folks seem to agree you are better off spamming 1st and 2nd attacks, an extra on third doesn't offer much to me.

Now getting to GTWF gives an extra on 1st attack. Maybe that's worth it.

Does the actual way most melee spam attack change things up here?

The minor flaw is highlighted above. I don't think that is true. I think once you have committed to go down the twf road, you basically need to get TWF, ITWF and GTWF. As stated before OTWF is optional.

*edit* Just to clarify. It is not that I disagree that you may be better off spamming 1 and 2 but rather that Most people either agree with it or much less do it for that matter.

[Shaamis]

I noticed a significant change in my stopping damage when I went from ITWF to GTWF, and there was no change in how long my standing attack animation went.

if you are a stab-and-move kinda person, getting the two-weapon fighting series will not help you as much as a standing attack sequence, and you won't gain the benefits of the additional attacks at a higher bonus.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I noticed a significant change in my stopping damage when I went from ITWF to GTWF, and there was no change in how long my standing attack animation went.

if you are a stab-and-move kinda person, getting the two-weapon fighting series will not help you as much as a standing attack sequence, and you won't gain the benefits of the additional attacks at a higher bonus.GrTWF also adds another attack to the first moving TWF attack sequence (ImpTWF adds another attack to the 2nd moving attack). GrTWF is absolutely crucial to TWF builds and anyone who says otherwise is kidding himself.

[Strykersz]

Both posts above say similar things, but this one is the key to my question I believe. It states extra attack on third attack for ITWF. As most folks seem to agree you are better off spamming 1st and 2nd attacks, an extra on third doesn't offer much to me.

Now getting to GTWF gives an extra on 1st attack. Maybe that's worth it.

Does the actual way most melee spam attack change things up here?

TWF isn't better off spamming the 1st and second attack, if I remember correctly(someone has a chart listing attacks per minute from 1 bab to 15 for the various fighting styles...repost it!). For THF, it is certainly true, but GTHF adds a glancing blow to your first moving animation.

[sigtrent]

Generally TWF doesn't pay until you have at least ITWF. It gets really good once you have GTWF and special effects weapons (vorpals/paralyzers/smiters etc.)


There are some exceptions to that...

I have two characters with basic TWF. One is a Tactics/Kopesh fighter/cleric. He uses the off hand for either a Vertigo 10 item or a Seeker 10 pick. The Vertigo makes my tripping far more potent, and the Seeer upps my average DPS considerably with the main hand kopesh (and occasionaly gets a crit in itself for decent damage, especialy on diabled targets). In both cases it has proven well worth having (I got it from ranger 2 rather than taking a feat for it)

My battle wizard took TWF to use an off hand backstabbing 5 weapon. Overal it gives me a +3 to hit on my main hand over using a single weapon since he only rarely pulls agro in melee combat. The extra +8 damage doesn't hurt either. So one feat gets me +3 to hit, +8 damage (and a second swing al be it a pretty weak one) More TWF feats wouldn't really do much for this character unless I could russle up another Wounding of Puncturing weapon.

[Westerner]

There are some exceptions to that...

I have two characters with basic TWF. One is a Tactics/Kopesh fighter/cleric. He uses the off hand for either a Vertigo 10 item or a Seeker 10 pick. The Vertigo makes my tripping far more potent, and the Seeer upps my average DPS considerably with the main hand kopesh (and occasionaly gets a crit in itself for decent damage, especialy on diabled targets). In both cases it has proven well worth having (I got it from ranger 2 rather than taking a feat for it)

My battle wizard took TWF to use an off hand backstabbing 5 weapon. Overal it gives me a +3 to hit on my main hand over using a single weapon since he only rarely pulls agro in melee combat. The extra +8 damage doesn't hurt either. So one feat gets me +3 to hit, +8 damage (and a second swing al be it a pretty weak one) More TWF feats wouldn't really do much for this character unless I could russle up another Wounding of Puncturing weapon.
Interesting ideas... was considering picking up an offhand weapon on my THF bard situationally.

Do you know what this would do to attack speed? i.e. TWF with the base feat vs S&B/THF. Is it a net increase?

[EinarMal]

Interesting ideas... was considering picking up an offhand weapon on my THF bard situationally.

Do you know what this would do to attack speed? i.e. TWF with the base feat vs S&B/THF. Is it a net increase?

It is a terrible idea if you have a decent strength and power attack. You are better of sticking with the THF.

[Shade]

Do you know what this would do to attack speed? i.e. TWF with the base feat vs S&B/THF. Is it a net increase?

Massive decrease in attakc rate if your ignoring the useless ofhand dmg.

One thing most ppl don't understand that overall animation lengths differ.. 1handed is faster then 2wf fighting by a bit.

[sigtrent]

Massive decrease in attakc rate if your ignoring the useless ofhand dmg.
One thing most ppl don't understand that overall animation lengths differ.. 1handed is faster then 2wf fighting by a bit.

The "by a bit" and "massive decrease" don't really add up.

I tend to agree with the "by a bit" part from personal expereince. It also of course depends on the build. My Fighter is not uber spected or geared out so milage may vary....

Sigfried generaly runs 30str, has Power Attack, TWF (from ranger) but no other style feats I've got weapon spec and improved crit slashing.

My best two hander is a named +5 falchion with sonic and thundering.
My best DPS kopesh is a +4 holy of righousness.

I've found that the Kopesh with an off hand seeker 10 pick is significantly faster for dropping monsters than the falchion and far better than going sword and board (which I do when I need the AC). If I had a sword of shadows or greensteel great sword THF might be better DPS but with the weapons I have the seeker 10 pick is a lot more damage. If I had a bloodstone it would be a different story but I havn't managed to pull one of the blasted things yet.

No doubt your toons are far better geared so my reasons for using that set up may be moot under those conditions. But lots of folks here are in the "gear as available" category so I though it was worth noting.

CAVEOT: This is the barbarian forums and honeslty I can't think of why you would make a barbarian with only THF and not got for GTWF. The seeker off hand thing is probably a bad deal for most barbarians compared to a two handed weapon. It's a better trick for less strong builds or builds that are working thier way up to GTWF. Once you get the extra off hand swings it starts to make more senes to use a good DPS weapon off hand isntead of one that is mostly just supporting your main hand swings.