Know what i would really like to see?

[nbhs275]

A raid that needs a smart, prepared party.

Imagine, you get in, and there is 4 doors in front of you. A red, blue, green and yellow. And, ala titan there is a little face where you can get matching little keys(stones, twigs, w/e) to the four doors, but only 3 of each! Meaning yes! You need to split your big ol group into 4 tiny little squads.

Now this means that A) you cant overstock yourself on any class, and B) your gunna need some teamwork with these small groups.

So as all these 4 small groups progress they are gunna meet some challenges, some traps, runes, puzzles, swimming, jumping mobs, named mobs, the works.

And how long should the groups progess? long enough that they are DESPERATE for a shrine, but not so far that they are going to always die when they all get into room 2. What would room 2 be? Well a mini boss of course! But thi miniboss would be a good halfway point. You get to him and you get half your total reward. 2-3 nice chests, and a shrine for your efforts. And once everyones nice and rested comes part 2 of the raid. The big ol' group of capped meanies.

No fancy traps, no wierd traps now, just a balls to the wall group mosh fight. 200 or so mobs later(with hell, a few orange names scattered in) you come to the second shrine and the door to the final fight. And here is where this raid would be completely different then the others we have.


The boss isnt the leader or the biggest mob. Its 4 big, burly, mean mobs. Yea, 4 purple baddies. And along with them come a nice steady chain of lackies(more of the same you killed in mass coming to this fight) But as is the running theme in most raid is there is a puzzle you need to deal with. But you need to do it WHILE fighting the bosses.

Your objective is to reach the 4 corners of the room, get the runes from the corners, and bring them to the middle to seal the portal that the bosses came from. Pretty simple right? but you also need to drop bridges, raise gates, and worry about traps and pitfalls while getting there. All of these running off of different stats and abilities(str levers26-30 req)(cha, wis, int runes of 20-24)

This is gunna keep all 12 people moving and busy. But what is your reward for this hard work? only one chest. A chest containing top end, fun use, totally unique, awesome looking loot that once you get your gunna get tons of tells asking you what that nifty xyz you have is. No 12 of them, but 4ish.

I would love to see something where the loot is basically a great boon, that is gunna be uncommon and distinctive. Where it take teamwork to get there, coordination, and skill. A quest which is completable because there isnt any bugs or glitches, but is near impossible because its a challenge. Where if any group finishes it, its a noteworthy accomplishment that should be noted on the forums.

Well this is kinda just a dream of something i would love to see in this game, a raid that needs 12 to do, and is just horribly action packed with challenges.


Comments? anyone?

[nbhs275]

oh come on! its a actually a ramblin' upbeat rant! you dont see that often.

[Uska]

Unlike some of your other ideas I like this one sounds like a winner to me.

[DasLurch]

The concept is ok, but the problem is that your ideal goal of making a fair and balanced raid group is going to exclude some builds yet again. Just in a different way. "Sorry barbarian, we have 2 people like you, we need someone with these stats/skills instead." It's the same thing you see most of the time, just in reverse. The idea of the raid is pretty cool mind you. And as far as challenges go, I know that the Abbot raid is broken/nigh impossible atm, but wasn't that one supposed to be the super skilled player raid?

[Aranticus]

life has never been fair...............

[bigj1608]

more raids ftw

and yes, make them impossible (not like the abbot)

make them require some logic, make there be a reason to have every class in there, no afk ****.. no buff and recall for sp, make it more challenging.. even the shroud is simple as long as you have clerics that can push that heal button on the barb they've got targeted every once in a while..

give us somethin exciting, dont steal a game like mastermind... make one up.. one that's never been done

new stuff! keep us interested

[sirgog]

I like the idea of raids that challenge the party through really tough fights, particularly the idea of having multiple raid bosses.

I don't like forming a raid party only to have to split the group up for the majority of the raid. If I want to really challenge 12 high-level characters but not have them all together, I can get them to split into 4 groups, and each one tries to trio Running with the Devils on elite.

[nbhs275]

I like the idea of raids that challenge the party through really tough fights, particularly the idea of having multiple raid bosses.

I don't like forming a raid party only to have to split the group up for the majority of the raid. If I want to really challenge 12 high-level characters but not have them all together, I can get them to split into 4 groups, and each one tries to trio Running with the Devils on elite.

Well there is a few reasons i like the idea of splitting the group up. It would mean that each group would have to function together and that the group wouldnt have space for dead weight. But unlike abbot, you get to choose your teams.

It could even be set up to funnel into to 6 man groups, before the come all back together, almost like a reverse of the system in titan. That Way you can have everyone go through an area with trapage, without making 4 rogues necessary.

[Angelus_dead]

It could even be set up to funnel into to 6 man groups, before the come all back together, almost like a reverse of the system in titan. That Way you can have everyone go through an area with trapage, without making 4 rogues necessary.
Yes, it could be set up that way. But why would you want to?

In general, designing quests that way makes them less available for play. Its more work by the developers, for less payoff to the players. The payoff will be similar in the short run, when the quest is new and shiny and is the hottest thing. But as time goes on and another even-higher level quest comes out as the default elite looting place, that older quest will be less playable.

It's a truism of game design: "If you want to have people play together, make them play together. Don't just bind one player's success to another he can't see or interact with"

Consider three variations of your rough proposal:
1. Team of 12 enters a mission, and splits into 3 groups to accomplish paths A, B, and C in parallel.
2. Team of 4 enters a mission, and does paths A, B, and C sequentially, with shrines between them.
3. Team of 4 enters a mission with just path A. Later they may do other quests containing B and C.

All of them have essentially the same gameplay experience- the dungeon rooms, halls, traps, and monsters are all the same, and the quantity of players dealing with each is also the same. But in case 1, the 4 players doing each area have 8 other player characters clogging up the party list and conflicting for the voice chat channel. They also have the 8 other players proceeding at a different speed, meaning they'll either be waiting around bored at the end, or be having someone whine at them to hurry up.

And most importantly of all, back when they were trying to recruit for the mission, they had to find 12 players ready and willing to do that raid all at the same time, even though the effective group he was going to be with was only 4. Not only does this mean it will take longer to get organized to where you can play the quest, but as time passes and it becomes less popular, it will soon be almost impossible to play at all. The content becomes inaccessible and dies as far as being viable for gameplay.

Imagine for an example that the 4 quests in Orchard of the Macabre (Fleshmaker, Doomsphere, Inferno, and Vol) were linked together so a group could only play one of those quests if there were 3 other groups starting the other 3 at the same time. That would be horrible, and make it nearly impossible to get a quest going. And for what benefit?

So you can experience the excitement of being arbitrarily deprived of your end loot just because one of the separate groups failed their quest? No thanks.

[Ransacked]

All you need to do is put Coyle in there as a hostage who tries to fight his way to freedom.

[ThrasherGT]

Unlike some of your other ideas I like this one sounds like a winner to me. (this is called a backhanded comment, and is not so nice)
I like this. Sounds like a winner to me. (same comment, much different connotation)

See the difference?

[Aspenor]

I would really like to see an escape from a dungeon, or prison. Make it a raid!!!

Include conversational options for rogues, and combat options for fighters and barbs, or charming options for casters.

Put in things like pickpocketting guards as dex-checks, or escape artist skill checks as dex-checks as well...

Just a few thoughts.

[Spookykid]

and you start with nothing when you try and escape from the dungeon and get it all back at the end

[Maelgwn]

Can we also make it so Wall of Fire isn't worth a ****, and that one hit spells like Destruction and FOD don't work either? I really like the sound of something like this raid but I'd like it twice as much with the above additions ;)

[nbhs275]

Can we also make it so Wall of Fire isn't worth a ****, and that one hit spells like Destruction and FOD don't work either? I really like the sound of something like this raid but I'd like it twice as much with the above additions ;)

Well, if you made SOME of the lackey type mobs resistant or immune to fire that would weaken Firewall, without making the mistake turbine has in a few cases of making any one spell completely useless in a quest. If your fighting a near solid group of 50-60ish mobs, with some immune to fire, some immune to cold, some mass healing, some melees. Where you cant use just one tactic or spell, you cant just breeze through it.

angelus, you make a valid point. And that would be what would make or break this type of quest. The Devs would have to strike a good balance between the paths. The reason you would want to split up is two-fold in my view. First, it would serve the purpose of locking you in, where recalling isnt a tactic. Second, its going to force you to not top load your group. Though i will admit, maybe three paths would be smarter, that way you dont have groups feeling like they need 4 healers or 4 casters as much.

The prison idea is very very cool, also is the basic "Escape" concept. Consider this. We are GOING to shavarath next mod. In mod 8(i know this is kinda crazy) we need to get the hell out! The powers that be in shavarath have fought back and are now closing all connections for us to escape back to stormreach! So the raid is a mad dash(timed, though with a long clock) to get to that last portal off the plain. Kinda like the last coptor out of niem.

Also, angelus's point about raids basically becoming obsolete. Thats why i think fun, useful, and uncommon raid loot is important. When your only getting Regular loot with a slight chance of raid loot, its very hard to justify the challenge.

[oronisi]

So you want the Titan raid, and the Abbot raid.

BAM!

Done.

[DelScorcho]

Uggg, you split a raid like that into 4 parts, and raid pugs will form to only include 4 tanks, 4 clerics, 4 casters.

[Dracolich]

You could make zone were you have "Wild magic" that emphasize the use of the groups physical combatants and other rooms with magnetic floors to slow the melee attacks down and divert missle attacks thus relying on your casters to overcome the roooms obstacles.

I like Aspenor's idea of options in quests that allow you to avoid conflicts by negotiating or pickpocketing items or even intimidating them into turning over map information or trap locations.

[Spell]

You might want to put up the LFM now.
It will probably to take that long to get the 'perfect' raid group formed by the time it becomes available.

[nbhs275]

You might want to put up the LFM now.
It will probably to take that long to get the 'perfect' raid group formed by the time it becomes available.

Perfect group? Im not saying impossible, im saying very challenging. I don't know about anyone else, but im sick of the raids being an easy chest ever 3 days. But i guess there is still people out there that would rather just be handed a reward.

[cpito]

Sounds like a great idea. Also sounds like communicating with each other would be a PITA.

[TheGreatEye]

I would really like to see an escape from a dungeon, or prison. Make it a raid!!!

Include conversational options for rogues, and combat options for fighters and barbs, or charming options for casters.

Put in things like pickpocketting guards as dex-checks, or escape artist skill checks as dex-checks as well...

Just a few thoughts.

Nice idea, there could also be a strength check to keep from getting but raped by your cell mate.

Seriously, good idea.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Portal should be discovered in the ruins of the market leading to the Devil's home plane.

An environment wreathed in flames and volcanic eruptions.

Just standing in the most hospital locations should cause 1 hp of fire damage per round.....with hot spots in various places doing more.

Many cracking surfaces where lava is just below the surface should exist. A high spot should be able to detect the danger and a high search should reveal the dangerous area for all to see.

Patroling through the area should be all the MOD6 baddies we have come to know and hate.....plus a few more real devils.

Secret areas should abound. Maybe teleporters to random locations.

A fortress to storm and a boss kill.

No puzzels, no prereqs. Good loot. static end rewards.

Any splitting up should be randomly determined, but the obsticles should be overcomable by most casual players.

No super runes requiring certain builds.

Various fights.

Places where stealth is advantageous.

Places where ranging is the only option.

traps.

Big baddies to fight and lots of little baddies to fight.

Lots and lots of treasure.

[swooshrp]

any possible way where classes' roles are changed...some vortex room where arcanes cant cast but a similiar BAB of the same level fighter... fighters have divine spells, clerics are arcanes, etc...Hps and BAB, proficienes only thing to change.


This would be for a short time, maybe one room for a longer fight and only part of the whole raid...but it would be interesting to see a 16 barb now has to stand in the corner and heal the cleric who is slapping the red named orc with a club over and over again.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'd love to see them find a way for us to wake up naked somewhere and have to use what ever weps we can find to complete a dungeon.
As long as we got our stuff back at the end people shouldn't complain.

Not sure how they would code this though. Create a special bank in the dungeon and move all our stuf finto it. At the end we get to access the bank and get our stuff back.

I think it could be done.

[Dracolich]

I'd love to see them find a way for us to wake up naked somewhere and have to use what ever weps we can find to complete a dungeon.
As long as we got our stuff back at the end people shouldn't complain.

Not sure how they would code this though. Create a special bank in the dungeon and move all our stuf finto it. At the end we get to access the bank and get our stuff back.

I think it could be done.

That could be very fun. You would get to see who really is a better player without all their wonderfull gear to put them above the average joe. Would be tricky though if you loot anything durring the quest if you had a fairly full inventory before entering. Unless all the looting happend after you crashed the vault to recover your stolen goods.

[Kromize]

and yes, make them impossible (not like the abbot)

Hmm.....contradictory?
Or you mean really impossible? A lever to finish the quest requires 100 str...
o:

[Dracorat]

There are many ways to make raids challenging without requiring any of a certain build.

You should be rewarded for but not required to have - certain archetypes. Have a room with two locking gates. And traps. Lots. And levers at the ends that must be pulled simultaneously to reopen and lock open those gates and disable the traps so that treasure chests there can be looted.

Have hallways that you get swarmed and I mean SWARMED with monsters. But they don't have many HPs. Just enough where two or three meteor swarms (not in the game yet, yes I know) at each junction would stop your raid from getting overwhelmed.

Have another hallway with magic immune monsters. Constructs even!

Or others where magical untyped damage rains down from the ceiling. Like force damage let's say. And you could make it through if the raid stuck together and a few clerics used mass healing spells.

Combine a few for effect. =)

Or others of a ton of ideas like these.

/takes DM cap off now.

[Uska]

See the difference?

So what just point two things out at sametime.