I miss the DPS...

[Rameses]

Lately I've noticed a lot of Power5 builds, too many in fact.
What ever happened to the Barbarian wielding a flaming burst great axe of great evil doer slaying... no I get the Barbarian wielding the vorpal great axe of feather dusting.
What ever happened to the Fighter wielding a holy burst khopesh of ew-ber-nes... instead another Fighter dual-wielding vorpal/paralyzer combos.
What ever happened to the Paladin wielding... wait nevermind... beyond Smite Evil Paladins have no DPS :D

I mean come on... do "we" have to wield a Vorpal in every **** quest on Elite?
I understand the thought that in the Shroud it's needed those Elite Orthons seam to have high HP.

Power5 builds.... what a joke.

I am, Rameses!


*disclaimer* this Rogue would never be caught wielding a Vorp/Para weapon ever. He loves the DPS.

[Xithos]

A lot of the groups I run around with these days are not 4 melee, a caster, and a cleric :D With 3 sorcs you are usually better off using a power 5 weapon since the monster is going to catch the finger long before you can DPS it. Elite Orthos, shroud Devils, and even the cats have ridiculous hp and even DR so they will catch a vorpal before DPS can do the job. Anyway, even the metamagic changes have arcanes and blade barrier clerics shredding rednames while the 2-handed barb is chasing the guy down (intimidate rules). Melee-DPS will always have its place (portals, Araetrikos, etc.) but its just not as prominent at this point in time from a metagame standpoint :D

[JayDubya]

Recognizing the effectiveness of finger/destruct I often use dual wounders. Even on Elite Orthons/Elementals, I have enough DPS to get through their DR, and the steady reduction in con helps the casters land their spells more reliably.


I only use a Vorpal on the big orthons, generally.

[Shaamis]

if you have to score damage on a mob more than 20 times to kill it, chances are a vorpal is a better bet.

On average, you can vorp a mob within 20 hits if you confirm the crit each time.

Only way to increase the chance of confirming the crit right now is:

Seeker weapons (doesn't stack with BS)
Bloodstone (doesn't stack with Seeker bonus)
Ftr enhancements (stacks with all)
Power Critical feat (stacks with all)

so to be safe, if I have to score damage on a mob more than 30 times, I switch to vorpals, if they can be vorpaled.

[Holgar]

Melee-DPS will always have its place (portals, Araetrikos, etc.) but its just not as prominent at this point in time from a metagame standpoint :D

I know you didn't intend this, but I find it amusing that a DPS fighter's first calling is to reduce the amount of time it takes to beat down an inanimate object. ;)

Holgar

[akla_thornfist]

if you want your fair share of kills you need to vorpal, smite, banish otherwise the casters and clerics kill everything while you swing your +5 flamingburst khopesh at the dust left over.

[Missing_Minds]

Oh, admit it Ram, you are just wanting mobs to have heavy fort or deathblock on to mock the power 5.


if you want your fair share of kills you need to vorpal, smite, banish otherwise the casters and clerics kill everything while you swing your +5 flamingburst khopesh at the dust left over.

Ah.. the ego talkers. I don't give a care who kills it so long as the group wins.

[Idleness]

I thought the purpose of the "meat shield" was to ...well... be just that ;)

[Rameses]

Oh, admit it Ram, you are just wanting mobs to have heavy fort or deathblock on to mock the power 5.


God no. If every mob had Heavy Fort Rogues would never get sneak attacks again. Not at all what I am talking about.
I'd just like to get a DPS Fighter/Barbarian when I have a LFM up.
You see normally, I run with complicated casters, not just one trick pony Nukers. So DPS is a must when I put groups together.

I am, Rameses!

[Hanam]

Vorpallllllllll

[HeavenlyCloud]

:) you know you love running with my barbarian.

[Milolyen]

When soloing my most used weapon combo (while not ranging) is vorpal/paralyzing. While it may take longer on average to kill a mob than using my acid of puregood/fell ice rapiers however I take very little to no dmg. Then with the amount of hps 90 percent of the mobs in quests have it is faster to use the vorpal/banish/smite/wound of puncturing than to use a traditional dps weapon specially when the casters are all doing instakill spells such as banish/fod/destruction and what ever else those fingerwigglers use. No sense in dpsing a mob to half when the caster is just going to insta kill it and might as well attempt the one shotters yourself to help save mana (and pad the ego's kill count).

Milolyen

[BlackSteel]

I'll use a smiting falchion on constructs where applicable.

And I may or may not use a vorpal great axe in part 2 of the shroud, depends on how many other people are going to same route. If atleast two of the other melees are using their harry beaters I'll use mine too. Frankly I cant stand to see the yellow numbers pop up.

I hate my disrupters on undead, I dont like waiting around for a failed save, and 2 handed banishers suck major cohanes. Whats that? Why not use a rapier or SS to banish? toothpicks look a little funny in a warforge's hands. Not to mention I'd much rather sell those. ^^

Thats it, your regular ol DPS weapons on everything else.

[Crarites]

Melee DPS is situational... that is all.

[JayDubya]

I hate my disrupters on undead, I dont like waiting around for a failed save, and 2 handed banishers suck major cohanes. Whats that? Why not use a rapier or SS to banish? toothpicks look a little funny in a warforge's hands. Not to mention I'd much rather sell those. ^^



I love my dual disruptors - completely dominate the kill counts in many of the undead-heavy quests. Yeah, they save often, but I hit so often that they are almost bound to fail within the first couple of rounds.

[Jondallar]

I totally agree Ram. I tire of all he pretty weps I have gathering dust i my pack. I also tire of taking for ever to roll a 20 with my vorpal:)

[Twerpp]

Power5 builds.... what a joke.

I am, Rameses!


*disclaimer* this Rogue would never be caught wielding a Vorp/Para weapon ever. He loves the DPS.

I concur. I call them "vorpal builds" as they are too gimped to hurt anything on less than a 20. Ever been in Devils watching dex rangers and rogues try to take down the red name Eladrin? You know, the one a 2h DPS can take down in a minute on elite? Pathetic.

I was hoping that the new mod would bring higher saves that would gimp the save based weapons but, oh well. I think smart people still appreciate my 2 Handed WF Juggernaut God of Big Sexy Crits and Stunning Blow (and his insatiable thirst for repair scrolls lol).

Funny when I roll him with Big 5 builds they ask aloud how they just critted on an 11 when I just stunned him. Guess they think they are that uber!

[bandyman1]

I concur. I call them "vorpal builds" as they are too gimped to hurt anything on less than a 20. Ever been in Devils watching dex rangers and rogues try to take down the red name Eladrin? Actually yeah. I do pretty dang good damage with my +1 transmuter of backstabbing V, + 8d6 sneak att. as long as the non-intim tanks are DOING THEIR SHARE OF DPS!!! This won't be as big an issue once the Diplo timer is lowered though :). You know, the one a 2h DPS can take down in a minute on elite? Pathetic.

I was hoping that the new mod would bring higher saves that would gimp the save based weapons but, oh well. I think smart people still appreciate my 2 Handed WF Juggernaut God of Big Sexy Crits and Stunning Blow (and his insatiable thirst for repair scrolls lol).

Funny when I roll him with Big 5 builds they ask aloud how they just critted on an 11 when I just stunned him. Guess they think they are that uber!

I'm with you and Rams on this one. My rogue does great DPS.....as long as there's a non-20 praying melee in the party :(

[Shade]

There's a total of 2 quests in the game where I will use something besides straight dps. (shroud, devils - and in both these quests, where it counts - the end bosses, i use dps and it matters)

In every other quests in the game I will use dps - i will not even equip a vorpal/smiter/noob weapon, and I will leave anyone using the so called "power' weapons in the dust by a massive margin. Few casters will even begin to come close to my killrate either.

DPS still rules, it's just that much harder to do well at it these days.

[bandyman1]

There's a total of 2 quests in the game where I will use something besides straight dps. (shroud, devils - and in both these quests, where it counts - the end bosses, i use dps and it matters)

In every other quests in the game I will use dps - i will not even equip a vorpal/smiter/noob weapon, and I will leave anyone using the so called "power' weapons in the dust by a massive margin. Few casters will even begin to come close to my killrate either.

DPS still rules, it's just that much harder to do well at it these days.

LMAO. You've got a good build Shade, I'll give ya that.

But if this is the case, you're either;

a) running with casters who could care less about their killcounts, and aren't trying to dominate it.
OR
b) running with some really gimped casters.

[JFeenstra]

puncturing kills faster than dps
vorpal kills faster than dps
banishing kills faster than dps
smiting kills faster then dps
disrupting kills faster than dps (most of the time)

no reason to go dps on non-red names

[Taerdra]

LMAO. You've got a good build Shade, I'll give ya that.

But if this is the case, you're either;

a) running with casters who could care less about their killcounts, and aren't trying to dominate it.
OR
b) running with some really gimped casters.

He definitely has a talent for hyperbole....

DPS is far, far too undervalued in the current game. This game is about killing boss mobs with tons of immunities, hps, and damage ability of their own... Not how fast you can get your explorers done.

[Shade]

LMAO. You've got a good build Shade, I'll give ya that.

But if this is the case, you're either;

a) running with casters who could care less about their killcounts, and aren't trying to dominate it.
OR
b) running with some really gimped casters.

pfft bring your caster to khyber and be prepared to be amazed then.

Because I only group with good players and often group with what I consider the very best casters of khyber who are awesome at killing. It will often be close depending on the quest, but very few can keep up with my barbarians. Even if they can insta kill the whole quest they often fail to keep up simply because I run much faster then them.

I've freakin outkilled caster in the reaver, the ghosts of perdition - now these are quests heavily geared towards casters and ill admit the caster I can outkill in these are average at best.. But the point is it can be done, is not easy but im not your average player.

And bosses aren't always about melee either. DQ is easier for casters for example - tho I melee her on elite too!

The idea that dps is only for end bosses is a joke to me.

I also very often group with excellent players that use dual w/p rapiers - and also outkill them more often then not - they come much closer then casters ever do tho.

[Mhykke]

pfft bring your caster to khyber and be prepared to be amazed then.

Because I only group with good players and often group with what I consider the very best casters of khyber who are awesome at killing. It will often be close depending on the quest, but very few can keep up with my barbarians. Even if they can insta kill the whole quest they often fail to keep up simply because I run much faster then them.

I've freakin outkilled caster in the reaver, the ghosts of perdition - now these are quests heavily geared towards casters and ill admit the caster I can outkill in these are average at best.. But the point is it can be done, is not easy but im not your average player.

And bosses aren't always about melee either. DQ is easier for casters for example - tho I melee her on elite too!

The idea that dps is only for end bosses is a joke to me.

I also very often group with excellent players that use dual w/p rapiers - and also outkill them more often then not - they come much closer then casters ever do tho.

If they update risia, I'd be down for a quick reaver w/ my caster.

It's heavily favored to the caster, I'll admit, but you brought it up. I'd def. be down for that.

[bandyman1]

pfft bring your caster to khyber and be prepared to be amazed then.

Because I only group with good players and often group with what I consider the very best casters of khyber who are awesome at killing. It will often be close depending on the quest, but very few can keep up with my barbarians. Even if they can insta kill the whole quest they often fail to keep up simply because I run much faster then them.

I've freakin outkilled caster in the reaver, the ghosts of perdition - now these are quests heavily geared towards casters and ill admit the caster I can outkill in these are average at best.. But the point is it can be done, is not easy but im not your average player.

And bosses aren't always about melee either. DQ is easier for casters for example - tho I melee her on elite too!

The idea that dps is only for end bosses is a joke to me.

I also very often group with excellent players that use dual w/p rapiers - and also outkill them more often then not - they come much closer then casters ever do tho.

ROTFLMAO.

Yep. Soon as mod 7 hits Risia, I'd be more than happy to run some content with ya anytime Shade.

Instakill? Yeah there's that. And then there's the DPS of my AOE spells which I can use to snipe every mob you fight. Yeah, I'm sure sprint boost will get ya to three mobs before I catch up, but then it's those three to the 6-7 that I'm downing with spells.

I'm guessing though that your going to run for the hills on this one, just like you did on Renegades w/p challenge.

[Jolani]

The best bet for any build is to be able to do both DPS and use vorpals, smiters, wounders, etc.
Examples:
+2 Vorpal Kopesh of Pure Good
+1 Anarchic Adamantine Falchion of Smiting
+5 Shock Rapier of Puncturing
+3 Holy Warhammer of Disruption
+3 Wounding Battleaxe of Pure Good

Very high end weapons, but if you can get a hold of their like, it's a serious step up from a simple 'Big 5' or 'DPS' build.

If I had to pick one type of build, DPS is the way to go for all but the monstrous hp of the shroud devils. The qualifier is, it need to truly be a DPS build, not some bastard sword wielding sword and shield fighter.

[DSL]

if you have to score damage on a mob more than 20 times to kill it, chances are a vorpal is a better bet.

On average, you can vorp a mob within 20 hits if you confirm the crit each time.
[...]
so to be safe, if I have to score damage on a mob more than 30 times, I switch to vorpals, if they can be vorpaled.


It actually takes an average of about 13-14 swings for a '20' to come up, so most melee characters considering their use should plan accordingly.

In the end, it's all about dispatching your enemies efficiently. Sometimes that means DPS, and sometimes it means vorpals, or w/p, etc., and furthermore the best weapon choice varies with the character. If you do indeed miss outright DPS, feel free to use it - there aren't that many places where using DPS instead of it's alternatives will make that big a difference (in terms of success/failure, and usage of resources).

[Raithe]

It actually takes an average of about 13-14 swings for a '20' to come up, so most melee characters considering their use should plan accordingly.

Fourteen swings is around the 50% mark (i.e. 50% of mobs will go down in 14 swings or less), but I wouldn't call that the "average." The average is 20 swings, and one out of five mobs will actually not go down for 30 swings.

*****

The real problem with DPS versus special effect versus stat damage is a lack of correlation. If 3 people are using puncturing, 2 people straight hit point DPS, and 2 people vorpals - some serious damage waste is going on.

Mob stats also affect the best strategy. In the Vale, with its hideously proportioned mobs, the order of preference is:

Banish (17-20 crit or better) > Vorpal > Stat damaging > DPS.

The notable exceptions are the Shroud (where banishing isn't possible), and "Running with the Devils" (where stat damaging works better than vorpal and banish).

[Lizardgrad89]

ROTFLMAO.

Yep. Soon as mod 7 hits Risia, I'd be more than happy to run some content with ya anytime Shade.

Instakill? Yeah there's that. And then there's the DPS of my AOE spells which I can use to snipe every mob you fight. Yeah, I'm sure sprint boost will get ya to three mobs before I catch up, but then it's those three to the 6-7 that I'm downing with spells.

I'm guessing though that your going to run for the hills on this one, just like you did on Renegades w/p challenge.


Yeah, I was thinking about my L16 Sorc's maximized, empowered AOE spells with the Superior pot 6 mace & enhancements, plus the crit upgrades I have via weapon and enhancement, and the huge numbers I can kill in about 3 seconds, and wondering how any melee toon could think to match it. I've seen my kill count jump by 30+ in 5 seconds, hard to swing an axe faster than that.

But in the interest of group harmony (and mana management), I only usually cast heavy spells like that if the melees are struggling. I rarely have mana issues and never hear complaints about "the darn caster killing everything". I winder if the uber casters that were mentioned used a similar strategy. Frankly, I like to see a quick run with no problems and a good time had by all. Kill count doesn't mean much to me.

[Hanam]

pfft bring your caster to khyber and be prepared to be amazed then.

Because I only group with good players and often group with what I consider the very best casters of khyber who are awesome at killing. It will often be close depending on the quest, but very few can keep up with my barbarians. Even if they can insta kill the whole quest they often fail to keep up simply because I run much faster then them.

I've freakin outkilled caster in the reaver, the ghosts of perdition - now these are quests heavily geared towards casters and ill admit the caster I can outkill in these are average at best.. But the point is it can be done, is not easy but im not your average player.

And bosses aren't always about melee either. DQ is easier for casters for example - tho I melee her on elite too!

The idea that dps is only for end bosses is a joke to me.

I also very often group with excellent players that use dual w/p rapiers - and also outkill them more often then not - they come much closer then casters ever do tho.


Your Epeen is showing ;)

[Twerpp]

puncturing kills faster than dps
vorpal kills faster than dps
banishing kills faster than dps
smiting kills faster then dps
disrupting kills faster than dps (most of the time)

no reason to go dps on non-red names


All of those weapons are great for the right moments...however they are all even greater with DPS.

ie W of P rapier kills even faster when you crit for 70-90 with powatk on, vs a gimp or weak dex build critting for 14 dmg and precision on. Why not take some hit points AND con :D ?

[Crarites]

All of those weapons are great for the right moments...however they are all even greater with DPS.

ie W of P rapier kills even faster when you crit for 70-90 with powatk on, vs a gimp or weak dex build critting for 14 dmg and precision on. Why not take some hit points AND con :D ?



The best wounding of puncturing/smiting/banishing build happens to be a barbarian with twin rapiers. Not sure why you think it would be a dex based build though. I've seen it in action and it outkills dps by a huge margin, previous exagerations within this thread included.

[Twerpp]

The best wounding of puncturing/smiting/banishing build happens to be a barbarian with twin rapiers. Not sure why you think it would be a dex based build though. I've seen it in action and it outkills dps by a huge margin, previous exagerations within this thread included.

Ummm I never said a barb would be a dex build lmao. I mean STR builds LIKE barbs and fighters will be way more effective since they do DAMAGE as well as the stat effect, and dont solely rely on the weapons special effect to save their weak butt that couldnt otherwise kill a medium dire hamster.

[Crarites]

Ummm I never said a barb would be a dex build lmao. I mean STR builds LIKE barbs and fighters will be way more effective since they do DAMAGE as well as the stat effect, and dont solely rely on the weapons special effect to save their weak butt that couldnt otherwise kill a medium dire hamster.

Agreed, but it still shows the special effect weapons overtaking dps in newer content. I'm not sure where you were going with your gimped dex/based builds comments. It seemed to me you were referrencing optimizing a build using these weapons types but generalizing a comon mistake of low str. Since these weapons sets are most effectively employed by a barbarian it appeared to me that you are deducing low str on barbarian builds; which struck me as odd.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It actually takes an average of about 13-14 swings for a '20' to come up, so most melee characters considering their use should plan accordingly.

How do you figure that? It takes an average of rolls to get a 20 on a D20...

And more like 21 for a vorpal effect because even if you only fail on a 1, sometimes you will roll a 1.

[Kromize]

I only use a Vorpal on the big orthons, generally.
What do you mean? They're all big!

Unless your talking devils in general....then I may understand a bit better...

[maddmatt70]

This is nothing new really. I remember running trial by fire elite early on when mod4 first came out. I was dual wielding on my max strength and gweapon spec slash axe specced twf dwarven fighter, a holy dwarven war axe of greater giant bane and an axiomatic handaxe of greater giant bane and wounders of vermin bane. I was playing the quest hard with tons of skill and some unknown fighter with a shield and a vorpal outkilled me. I had one vorpal dwarxe at the time and the next day I bought another. I can't remember ever being outkilled by a melee on the quest again (of course casters yes)..

[Xyfiel]

Barbs have their use, but they have no chance at being the fastest way thru most quests. If you plan to kill stuff, maybe, but for loot running, no chance in .....

[Frodo_Lives]

I gotta say it makes me laugh when people start chest thumping about how they out kill everyone in almost every quest because they are so great.

Then two threads later they are berating some "newb" who only wants to look at the kill counts because after all everyone knows that kill counts are meaningless. :rolleyes:

DPS has its uses, stat damagers have their uses, power 5 weapons have their uses. The trick is to know when each will be the most effective for the successful completions of the quest for the entire party.

Having tons of uber equipment does very little to impress me, it either says that A) you play a ton, or B) you are very lucky. Maybe some fighters use vorpals/paralyzers because they haven't been lucky (or rich) enough to find w/p weapons or the very top end DPS weapons.

If you want to prove your build than run around with the starter equipment and have the other melee do the same. Otherwise all you are doing is comparing loot.

[maddmatt70]

I gotta say it makes me laugh when people start chest thumping about how they out kill everyone in almost every quest because they are so great.

Then two threads later they are berating some "newb" who only wants to look at the kill counts because after all everyone knows that kill counts are meaningless. :rolleyes:

DPS has its uses, stat damagers have their uses, power 5 weapons have their uses. The trick is to know when each will be the most effective for the successful completions of the quest for the entire party.

Having tons of uber equipment does very little to impress me, it either says that A) you play a ton, or B) you are very lucky. Maybe some fighters use vorpals/paralyzers because they haven't been lucky (or rich) enough to find w/p weapons or the very top end DPS weapons.

If you want to prove your build than run around with the starter equipment and have the other melee do the same. Otherwise all you are doing is comparing loot.

Oh I would still whoop yeah with starter equipment at least twf so bring it.. I dont know thf or sword and board as well and dont pretend to...

[Cairo]

My 9th lvl Tempest Ranger, Kayos, wields a +3 cold iron true law D.Axe of Pure Good and a +2 Axiomatic D.Axe of pure good. Range is Bow of Elements-Air, Shock of undead bane, and a cursespewer. Hes only 9, when he hits 10 hell have a paralyzer axe & bow, maybe a vorpal (i cant remember tbh) but even more importantly, he'll upgrade both his DPS axes. I prefer DPS. Yeah its nice to see the rogue in my guild running a paralyzer/wounder combo, free hits & 100+pt crits for me. theres another ranger in my guild who i have to admit, does some massive damage with his DPS axes. Hes about the only one who can outkill me if my game's on and im paying attention to what im doing lol.

DPS *is* the king, people just get a rush from seeing the Blue of a Vorp or seeing a red bar go down in 3 seconds because they crit 4 times with their +3 w/p rapiers and popped off 20 con off a mob, or the paralyzer/disrupter animation.

Me? I get my rush from seeing "You killed sucha mob", seeing the huge crits above their heads, and looking at the XP screen in a quest and seeing that the barb and the fighter and the paladin and the rogue combined have less kills than I do. :D

[bobbryan2]

Devs decided that power 5 weapons were going to be the king of melee when they decided to insanely boost up HP. Instadeath is better for resources.

It is what it is. But a ranger dual wielding banishers is usually more effective than a barbarian with a big +5 greataxe.

[CrimsonEagle]

But I DO kill with dps.....


I hold a vorpal in each hand and the monster will die the death of 1000 lashes before I will roll a 20!!!


Oh wait....this is not what you are talking about. Sorry....carry on.

*Walks off mumbleing about d19 dice*

[between6and25chars]

Is my Lightning 2 Khopesh and Deathnip a Power 5 weapon?

[Nirvana]

How come I smell I-am-so-uber-you-are-so-gimp-I-outkill-the-best-of-best-therefore-you-should-delete-your-toon-and-shut-f-up in this thread?

You know, it smells...

[shores11]

Do what I do I sell all of my vorpals, smiters, banishers, etc... to the vendors. These type of wepaons are the stupiest thing ever added to the game. Oh wow look what fun this is I just killed over 100+ monsters in just a few swings.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I was just saying in another thread that a guildie rogue no longer wants to run his main because no tanks DPS any more. And because of his sneak attack he's constantly pulling aggro....

Unfortunately as you well know Ramz, efficiency is the name of the game, and that means vorpals/banishers in The Vale/Shroud.

[captain1z]

I have 2 fighters...... 1 has a vorpal in his backpack but I only use it for vampires. He hits for about 80 pts with a wounding dwarf axe. Stuff dies real quick. I am very impressed with how he worked out from day 1. The only guy Ive made, that was able to cruise thru elite content 2 levels higher than he was. hes really awesome but cant heal himself very well at all...... and pots dont really help. Even so he is very survivable when I want him to be. He does DPS but he also uses a wounder to help it along.


My other fighter goes 2 weapon with burst effects and averages 100 pts or so per hit with no gimmick big5 weapons. he has a wounder and a smiter in his backpack for when its called for but after completing his chain of attacks can do very close to 1000 pts. Hes not as sturdy as my dwarf with 200 fewer hps and a lower AC.................. I need to play him differently ...... like a secondary tank. I let someone else get aggro, pick my target and kill it in seconds..... then move to the next. if i get aggro from multiple targets I will take a beating and likely not survive.


2 different playstyles needed for each, you play one like its the other and you will get terrible results................. both are very much pro-dps , anti-vorpal.

[Slayer918]

I was just saying in another thread that a guildie rogue no longer wants to run his main because no tanks DPS any more. And because of his sneak attack he's constantly pulling aggro....

Unfortunately as you well know Ramz, efficiency is the name of the game, and that means vorpals/banishers in The Vale/Shroud.

New intimidate cool down FTW?

6 seconds of agro every 6 seconds... most love my paladin got in this so called "paly love mod"...

[Twerpp]

Devs decided that power 5 weapons were going to be the king of melee when they decided to insanely boost up HP. Instadeath is better for resources.

It is what it is. But a ranger dual wielding banishers is usually more effective than a barbarian with a big +5 greataxe.
But not more effective than a max STR barb or greater weapon spec fighter with pumped up powatk dual wielding the same, especially if hes finesse and or using precision. Thats my point. When you can rock a +3 vorpal greataxe and get respectable dps, or fat damage with a w of p rapier in addition to stat damage, you are way better than finesse clowns and their eternal yellow numbers and guess what,ever stunning blow a mob with your w of p and see how fast they drop? You cant if you are finesse or dumped all your feats into tempest. And unless youve got sneak die you arent incredibly useful for anything other than trash mobs.

[bobbryan2]

But not more effective than a max STR barb or greater weapon spec fighter with pumped up powatk dual wielding the same, especially if hes finesse and or using precision. Thats my point. When you can rock a +3 vorpal greataxe and get respectable dps, or fat damage with a w of p rapier in addition to stat damage, you are way better than finesse clowns and their eternal yellow numbers and guess what,ever stunning blow a mob with your w of p and see how fast they drop? You cant if you are finesse or dumped all your feats into tempest. And unless youve got sneak die you arent incredibly useful for anything other than trash mobs.

Who says Rangers are finessed?

I rather hate weapon finesse as a feat. :)

[captain1z]

I was just saying in another thread that a guildie rogue no longer wants to run his main because no tanks DPS any more. And because of his sneak attack he's constantly pulling aggro....

Unfortunately as you well know Ramz, efficiency is the name of the game, and that means vorpals/banishers in The Vale/Shroud.

We gotta remember some people depend on others to make their builds work. To take that away is a bit selfish....like a cleric who wont heal.


example: Orthons on elite are a tough nut to crack, so to increase his kill count a fighter decides hes going to vorpal them all.
As a result everyone is doing more damage than he is and getting all the aggro. The caster must run for his life because he just cast MM, the rogue loses his sneak attack and gets 1 shotted......... but the fighter is leading the kill count and the cleric is pulling his own hair out. As a primary tank its your job to do massive amounts of damage and grab the attention of a monster or monsters, knowing fully well that your AC and HP will keep you alive long enough for the secondary tank to help you kill them off, via vorpal or whatever and every other class....... rogue, healer, caster, ranger, are all gunna support you in that effort in their own way and help you get the job done.

If the main tank is not grabbing and holding the aggro he is basicly looking out for his own kill count at the expense of the life and sp bars of other party members.

the thing is not everyone recognizes that there are roles to be played in every party and if you dont see someone filling it and you are able to..... you probably should...... for the well being of the party. (tank, dpser, healer, debuffer)


tank - absorbs enemy attacks and holds mob attention (cleave, sword and board, intimidate.. even a firewall from a safe position or ledge)
dpser- kills mobs quickly (pk, firewall, vorpal, great axes, trip + stun)
healer - puts party in the best possible position to win an encounter (greater hero, haste, bard buffs and mass heals )
debuffer - puts a hole in enemy defenses (crowd control, stat damage even bluff)

[Emili]

Typically if I do use a power 5 the mob may go down 50/50 by shear dps... on reds i never use a power 5 but chances are even though I'm carrying 45 weapons (most greater banes) I hit and deal enough damages with a +1 power 5 anyway that the +5 and 4d6 to 6-d6 from the elemental greater banes plays little diff in the outcome... a 34str fighter + tripple rage or 32 str barb + quad rage Tempest Rangers + triple + favored near all the dps is in the str + PA + the bloodtones + fighter haste or + 5 HV damage boosts ... the largest chunk of the damages... If u do use a power 5 on these it's just a lucky roll and off to the next mob

[Aranticus]

/keeps +++ green steel khopesh

/draws vorpal khopesh

:p

[Hvymetal]

I was just saying in another thread that a guildie rogue no longer wants to run his main because no tanks DPS any more. And because of his sneak attack he's constantly pulling aggro....

Unfortunately as you well know Ramz, efficiency is the name of the game, and that means vorpals/banishers in The Vale/Shroud.

Yes, aggro management is getting, tricky lately for Rogues. Hopefully the new cooldown on Dip will help since most "tanks" can't hold any aggro nowadays.

[Rameses]

How come I smell I-am-so-uber-you-are-so-gimp-I-outkill-the-best-of-best-therefore-you-should-delete-your-toon-and-shut-f-up in this thread?

You know, it smells...

sigh.... A skunk always smells it's hole first.
Nirvana I love you guys; you cheer me up everyday. :D

I am, Rameses!

[Vyctor]

I feel your pain, rogues have it rough with people looking to insta-kill...can't even join the crowd because of sneak attack damage lol

[MrWizard]

I understand the thought that in the Shroud it's needed those Elite Orthons seam to have high HP.


*disclaimer* this Rogue would never be caught wielding a Vorp/Para weapon ever. He loves the DPS.


I like to use puncture versus orthons, they go down pretty quick with a punture rapier. Waiting for a 20 is fun in a group I guess, but if you are the main tank you are letting your party down..imho

btw, in dnd 4.0 they took out the wish spell....

[Twerpp]

Who says Rangers are finessed?

I rather hate weapon finesse as a feat. :)


I say rangers are finessed. I dont recall saying ALL rangers are finessed though. I will say that none of them are tanks.

[between6and25chars]

I will say that none of them are tanks.

LOLOLOLOL I'll say you are wrong....

[samagee]

Lately I've noticed a lot of Power5 builds, too many in fact.
What ever happened to the Barbarian wielding a flaming burst great axe of great evil doer slaying... no I get the Barbarian wielding the vorpal great axe of feather dusting.
What ever happened to the Fighter wielding a holy burst khopesh of ew-ber-nes... instead another Fighter dual-wielding vorpal/paralyzer combos.
What ever happened to the Paladin wielding... wait nevermind... beyond Smite Evil Paladins have no DPS :D

I mean come on... do "we" have to wield a Vorpal in every **** quest on Elite?
I understand the thought that in the Shroud it's needed those Elite Orthons seam to have high HP.

Power5 builds.... what a joke.

I am, Rameses!


*disclaimer* this Rogue would never be caught wielding a Vorp/Para weapon ever. He loves the DPS.


I prefer my +2 shocking burst kopesh of enfeebling. When I duel wield, the off hand is usually a paralyer with that or my +4 kopesh of cripling and vertigo. I generaly switch out weapons depending on what I come up against. I rarely use my vorpal on the elite runs. I don't see a point to it really. My vorp is a +1, and I usually like to be able to hit better in the higher leveled quests. So I go for the ability to hit plus damage plus hindering of some sort.

So I have to agree with you on this.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Ok, this might be a stupid question but...

Whats the difference between a Power5 build and a dps build?

Other than maybe taking...what? Precision and having it turned on almost the whole time once they reach level 10 (8 if they have the right race restricted weapons). Otherwise they would seem to have, at least similiar, the same makeup as your generic dps build.

Seems to me its just a difference in weapon choice as opposed to the actual build itself which means... couldn't you ask your party's tank(s) to switch to dps if its really bothering you? Oh wait, that would involve casters actually using crowd control instead of just FoD and Pk and that'll aparently never happen =/

On a slightly more serious note, people in general need to be able to adapt to the situation instead of being stubborn about it.

Most of the time people don't care what strategy is used when asked about it. However, be careful, people DO mind it when they're order to.

[Grenfell]

I have 2 fighters...... 1 has a vorpal in his backpack but I only use it for vampires. He hits for about 80 pts with a wounding dwarf axe. Stuff dies real quick. I am very impressed with how he worked out from day 1. The only guy Ive made, that was able to cruise thru elite content 2 levels higher than he was. hes really awesome but cant heal himself very well at all...... and pots dont really help. Even so he is very survivable when I want him to be. He does DPS but he also uses a wounder to help it along.


My other fighter goes 2 weapon with burst effects and averages 100 pts or so per hit with no gimmick big5 weapons. he has a wounder and a smiter in his backpack for when its called for but after completing his chain of attacks can do very close to 1000 pts. Hes not as sturdy as my dwarf with 200 fewer hps and a lower AC.................. I need to play him differently ...... like a secondary tank. I let someone else get aggro, pick my target and kill it in seconds..... then move to the next. if i get aggro from multiple targets I will take a beating and likely not survive.


2 different playstyles needed for each, you play one like its the other and you will get terrible results................. both are very much pro-dps , anti-vorpal.

I'd like to see how you're averaging 80pts per hit with a D'Axe and 100pts per hit with a two-hander.

That would mean 240pt crits with a one-hander, and a 300pt crit with a greataxe.

Unless you meant you CRIT for 80 with the D'Axe and CRIT for 100 with a Greataxe?

/gren

[Grenfell]

Ok, this might be a stupid question but...

Whats the difference between a Power5 build and a dps build?

Other than maybe taking...what? Precision and having it turned on almost the whole time once they reach level 10 (8 if they have the right race restricted weapons). Otherwise they would seem to have, at least similiar, the same makeup as your generic dps build.

Seems to me its just a difference in weapon choice as opposed to the actual build itself which means... couldn't you ask your party's tank(s) to switch to dps if its really bothering you? Oh wait, that would involve casters actually using crowd control instead of just FoD and Pk and that'll aparently never happen =/

On a slightly more serious note, people in general need to be able to adapt to the situation instead of being stubborn about it.

Most of the time people don't care what strategy is used when asked about it. However, be careful, people DO mind it when they're order to.

Um, why is FOD and PK not crowd control?

Ex. 1: You have three mobs charging you; I throw down a Web. Two save, one gets stuck. You have two mobs to fight.

Ex. 2: You have three mobs charging you; I PK one. You have two mobs to fight.

What's the difference, exactly?

/gren

[rawfocat]

Um, why is FOD and PK not crowd control?

Ex. 1: You have three mobs charging you; I throw down a Web. Two save, one gets stuck. You have two mobs to fight.

Ex. 2: You have three mobs charging you; I PK one. You have two mobs to fight.

What's the difference, exactly?

/gren

At the risk of derailing a DPS thread. If you are only getting 1 of every 3 mobs with your CC, then you are not doing a very good job at it. I do agree that instakill can be part of a very sucessful CC strategy, meaning CC and instakill anything that saves. However, the main problem I have with instakill as CC is most casters spam FOD in tab order, not selecting the most efficient target to kill.

[between6and25chars]

I'd like to see how you're averaging 80pts per hit with a D'Axe and 100pts per hit with a two-hander.

That would mean 240pt crits with a one-hander, and a 300pt crit with a greataxe.

Unless you meant you CRIT for 80 with the D'Axe and CRIT for 100 with a Greataxe?

/gren

1000 damage in a chain is pushing it as is an average of 80-100 hmm.....

Sergod vs Favored Dueling Lightning 2 and Deathnip 10 attack chain

20% crit rate means 2 crits in the 10 attacks

average of 32 a hit with Deathnip
average of 46 a hit with Lightning 2 Khopesh

46+46+46+46+32+32+32+32=312

average deathnip crit is 175
average Khopesh crit is 159

312+175+159=646 a chain or 646 damage in 2.4 seconds or 269.16 DPS

[Twerpp]

LOLOLOLOL I'll say you are wrong....

Light Armor, Bows, Kiting, Spell Points, Jump and Tumble....oh yeah totally a tank class.

[bobbryan2]

At the risk of derailing a DPS thread. If you are only getting 1 of every 3 mobs with your CC, then you are not doing a very good job at it. I do agree that instakill can be part of a very sucessful CC strategy, meaning CC and instakill anything that saves. However, the main problem I have with instakill as CC is most casters spam FOD in tab order, not selecting the most efficient target to kill.

So will Wail of the Banshee be crowd control then?

I see insta kill spells as crowd control in their own right. It takes guys out of the fight. Yeah, most casters use tab order, because precision targets isn't easy with a real-time combat system with the UI limitations we have. It's too hard to actually point and click which targets to shoot, and tabbing to cycle through to find high profile targets is too time-consuming. So... "kill 'em all and let God sort them out."

I used to have a problem with it when I just had melees... but then I rolled up a sorc, and I'm a lot more understanding. Sometimes sorcs will FOD something a fighter is fighting just for fun, but most of the time, the sorc is just trying to thin out the playing field.

But yeah... as HP get more ridiculous, insta-kill will become more and more important, unless we get a subsequent increase in DPS. (which we haven't)

[Twerpp]

d8, two weapon fighting, no tower shields, intimidate a cross-class skill, animal empathy, oh yes and who can forget, IMPROVED animal empathy! Yup we're getting tankier by the minute!

[between6and25chars]

Light Armor, Bows, Kiting, Spell Points, Jump and Tumble....oh yeah totally a tank class.

LOL

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=144126

Ya 52 self buffed TWF AC with Power Attack, 400-500 HP, 300 DPS+, and a 34+ STR is DEFINITELY not a tank...

Sorry if YOUR gimp ranger isnt a tank...

[between6and25chars]

So will Wail of the Banshee be crowd control then?

I see insta kill spells as crowd control in their own right. It takes guys out of the fight. Yeah, most casters use tab order, because precision targets isn't easy with a real-time combat system with the UI limitations we have. It's too hard to actually point and click which targets to shoot, and tabbing to cycle through to find high profile targets is too time-consuming. So... "kill 'em all and let God sort them out."

I used to have a problem with it when I just had melees... but then I rolled up a sorc, and I'm a lot more understanding. Sometimes sorcs will FOD something a fighter is fighting just for fun, but most of the time, the sorc is just trying to thin out the playing field.

But yeah... as HP get more ridiculous, insta-kill will become more and more important, unless we get a subsequent increase in DPS. (which we haven't)

I will say yes wail will be CC

[bobbryan2]

d8, two weapon fighting, no tower shields, intimidate a cross-class skill, animal empathy, oh yes and who can forget, IMPROVED animal empathy! Yup we're getting tankier by the minute!

What about DPS-bot. Would that fit better for Tempest Rangers? I wouldn't label them as tanks, but people interchange that word with melee in this game. In the DDO sense of the word, Rangers are tanks.

[Twerpp]

LOL

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=144126

Ya 52 self buffed TWF AC with Power Attack, 400-500 HP, 300 DPS+, and a 34+ STR is DEFINITELY not a tank...

Sorry if YOUR gimp ranger isnt a tank...

Cmon man I'm not gonna say anything bad about someone elses build. Its a great tempest ranger build and it actually fit this thread well because of nice DPS. Its not a tank though.

[between6and25chars]

Cmon man I'm not gonna say anything bad about someone elses build. Its a great tempest ranger build and it actually fit this thread well because of nice DPS. Its not a tank though.

Whats your definition of a tank then?

[Xithos]

I say rangers are finessed. I dont recall saying ALL rangers are finessed though. I will say that none of them are tanks.

Lesson in character building 101 FTW :) A ranger can easily multiclass a little and still retain nearly all the benefits of being a ranger. Stop by the ranger forum sometime and learn something.

[Newtons_Apple]

Not to worry Ramises- I'm growing up a nice lil Barb, who at lvl 4 in gwylans hard led the kill count with 2 other tanks and a dps rogue, all lvl 6... Not that kill count is all that important, but it IS a lot of fun!

[Twerpp]

Whats your definition of a tank then?

That answer definitely deserves its own thread. Without even searching I'm guessing there are already plenty.

[SableShadow]

What about DPS-bot. Would that fit better for Tempest Rangers? I wouldn't label them as tanks, but people interchange that word with melee in this game. In the DDO sense of the word, Rangers are tanks.

Yeah, that's been a recurring oddity for me...the interchangability of 'DPS' and 'Tank' in this game.

[dragnmoon]

Melee DPS is situational... that is all.

I can see that point.... But if there is a rogue in the group that would be the "situation" you would use DPS not Vorp/Para, or you are just waisting a bunch of DPS from your Rogue...DPS Fighter/barb + a DPS rogue on any Monster is better then vorp/Para fighter + losing his DPS rogue on any monster.

[dragnmoon]

puncturing kills faster than dps
On average a DPS Fighter + a DPS rogue will kill faster *very low con monsters being the exception...but not by much.*
vorpal kills faster than dps
On average a DPS Fighter + a DPS rogue will kill faster *really good luck being the exception*
banishing kills faster than dps
On average a DPS Fighter + a DPS rogue will kill faster *really good luck being the exception*
smiting kills faster then dps
Since DPS rogues vs constructs are rare this is true
disrupting kills faster than dps (most of the time)
Since DPS rogues vs undead are rare this is true
no reason to go dps on non-red names
If there is a DPS rogue in the group, most of the time you want to go DPS



What I said in red

[D'rin]

What I said in red

On normal or hard I would agree. But on elite when the hitpoints are greatly inflated compared to con then puncturing will be faster than dps.
Now on elite your smiters,disruptors and banisher get less likely to be good due to increased saves of the mobs. Actually I expect that at 18+ lvl even on normal banishers won't work due to hit dice restrictions. Certainly on hard and elite banishers just won't work. Vorpals as hitpoints get inflated as we increase in level will get more valuable since it may take 30+ swings to kill some mobs on elite. Then a vorpal would be the best route to go. Now if the devs start putting in more mobs with heavy fort then vorpals wont be much use anymore. But then again neither will dps since criticals will be a thing of the past.

On a side note, heavy fort does not stop stat damage does it?? Neither does deathward I believe? I honestly can't remember.

[Cecilia]

What I said in red

I agree also want to add that a good DPS fighter/barb with power attack and a big 5 especially if its a 2 hander can easily keep aggro off of a rogue. The people who can't are Weapon Finesse, 2WF who lack DPS, and people who use precision to compensate for the fact that they can't hit anything especially with a +1 banisher/w of p, and combinations of the above resulting in a build that's a player character equivalent of a trash mob.

[GlassCannon]

Lately I've noticed a lot of Power5 builds, too many in fact.
What ever happened to the Barbarian wielding a flaming burst great axe of great evil doer slaying... no I get the Barbarian wielding the vorpal great axe of feather dusting.
What ever happened to the Fighter wielding a holy burst khopesh of ew-ber-nes... instead another Fighter dual-wielding vorpal/paralyzer combos.
What ever happened to the Paladin wielding... wait nevermind... beyond Smite Evil Paladins have no DPS :D

I mean come on... do "we" have to wield a Vorpal in every **** quest on Elite?
I understand the thought that in the Shroud it's needed those Elite Orthons seam to have high HP.

Power5 builds.... what a joke.

I am, Rameses!


*disclaimer* this Rogue would never be caught wielding a Vorp/Para weapon ever. He loves the DPS.


If the HP of ALL of the new quest's monsters gets dropped by 80% you will see the power 5's used less. Right now they are the only efficient solution, thanks to a glaring oversight by developers.

My DPS barb is forced to switch to dual vorpals in the Shroud. Forced(or die due to the HP being atrociously inflated).

Of course if my barb was suddenly granted Instant Teleportation, DR30/- and 5,000 HP I would be less objectional about monsters being granted this.

[Mindspat]

if you want your fair share of kills you need to vorpal, smite, banish otherwise the casters and clerics kill everything while you swing your +5 flamingburst khopesh at the dust left over.

You're a Founder, you should know that kill counts don't mean a damned thing.


Wouldn't it be nice if our scorecard tracked things like Healing, Debuffs, Buffs, etc? Anyone who thinks a kill count matters is likely the reason why so many PUG's have a hard time.

[Twerpp]

You're a Founder, you should know that kill counts don't mean a damned thing.


Wouldn't it be nice if our scorecard tracked things like Healing, Debuffs, Buffs, etc? Anyone who thinks a kill count matters is likely the reason why so many PUG's have a hard time.

LMAO maybe in the WNBA but here we like to SLLAAAAMMM DUNK IT BABY!!!! HES ON FIRE!!!

Nah I feel you man. I want a more comprehensive quest summary, Healed HP, Repaired Hit Points, Nuked Damage, CC spells that stuck, also give us awesome or humiliating nicknames for those who died the most, killed the most, nuked the most, did the least damage, etc. It would just be fun.

[Hvymetal]

I agree also want to add that a good DPS fighter/barb with power attack and a big 5 especially if its a 2 hander can easily keep aggro off of a rogue. The people who can't are Weapon Finesse, 2WF who lack DPS, and people who use precision to compensate for the fact that they can't hit anything especially with a +1 banisher/w of p, and combinations of the above resulting in a build that's a player character equivalent of a trash mob.I am finding very few "good" DPS Barbs/Fighters then, what I am finding is my Rogue (I use stat damagers, don;t need the extra damage) with 13 levels of Rogue is pulling aggro pretty easily off most melees in the vale quests, apparently "good" DPS Barbs/Fighters are a rarity then.....

[Rameses]

I keep hearing about over inflated HP. I say your FULL OF $hit.
The HP aren't over inflated, you're just used to one or two shotting GH and Necro (non-undead) Mobs.
Honestly, quit making excuses about wanting to have the high kill count.