Building the Super Tank

[Ranger57]

How should I build a Barbarian class to be a super tanker:
Maxium hit points and maximum AC
(fight with shield and be able to sustain a lot of damage)
(be able to go toe to toe with monsters and slug it out, without major loss of HP and drain on cleric)

I'm thinking of starting with Dwarf race and maximixing STR 18 and CON 18, then max DEX with remaining of 28pts.

Then focus on Feats and Enhancements to increase each.
Which are recommended?

[Halpo]

I tried it once. Did not like it only because of elite quests. Never had enough damage to kill stuff fast when needed. A barbarians role in a party is simply put DPS. If you do not have dps then you are worse than a paladin.

[sigtrent]

Barbarian just doesn't have a lot of traits that make them especialy good tanks. Their DR is fairly nice but not as much as a stoneskin spell or DR from various in game items. Thier DR boost is really one of thier only unique special abbilities.

All around a fighter is better suited to being a mixed tank/dps character. Not that you can't do it with a barbarian, it's just a lot harder and not really better.

You could splash barbarian into a fighter build and get some benefits out of it for a little extra offense, HP, or access to DR boost.

[Halpo]

OMG I am still laughing.......still laughing.......still laughing.......OMG I am busting a gut.........

Lets examine what makes a good tank.

1. High hit points
2. High DPS
3. Keeping agro
4. DR
5. I will throw in AC although it matters little on anything above normal

now lets rate who is best at each.

1. Barb's highest HP in game unless you gimp your fighter and take all toughness feats.
2. Barb with power attack
3. Who is better than taking Agro and keeping it than a Barb --- no one
4. OMG a Barb again as they can shrug off dmg. **** a WF barb is the best at this with a docent of defiance
5. hmm Fighter or ranger wins here but who cares on elite they are all getting hit so the HIGH damaging agro keeping barb makes it easy on the cleric by being the only one needing to be healed.

WOW Barbarians really aren't tanks at all. (That was sarcastic in case you couldn't tell)

[Illuminati]

Did you have the name Haplo from the books? Good reads those...

[Laith]

All around a fighter is better suited to being a mixed tank/dps character. Not that you can't do it with a barbarian, it's just a lot harder and not really better.after trying it myself with a barbarian12/fighter4 (link) (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129815), i've come to much the same conclusion. of course, you came to it first ;)

The way the game is TODAY, fighters have few defensive advantages over barbarians. Sure, you could count bonus feats, but there simply aren't that many good defensive ones... dwarves can give you just about everything else, and a barbarian get's a ton of feats "free" if you compare it to a fighter. Heck, one of the biggest "fighter advantages" is the fact that fighters can splash pally.

The current problem facing a defensive barb is that combat expertise does NOT function in conjunction with rage. they just can't be on at the same time, so a defensive barb is left with 2 distinct modes (offensive/defensive), and a question as to whether or not taking rage enhancements is worthwhile.

Fortunately, if you mix in fighter you've got some good choices for enhancements (str, tower shield I, etc), and you're a dwarf (you have to be) so you've got a great selection there. Plus, barb gives Barbarian Intimidation (which is flat awesome for your build) and a few other good ones.

More than likely, any barbarian that is defensively as good as a fighter performs slightly worse offensively than that same fighter (he's not raging). If you are raging, you're giving up at least 7AC so you're no longer tanking, and you're less effective offensively than a standard rage-focused barb.

The real problem though, is that the future for a defensive barb isn't very bright IMO. While a fighter will (without a doubt) get some more defensive oriented enhancements, barbarians can only hope for more DR. Let's face it: barbarians and dwarves aren't getting any loving anytime soon. This all means that while a dwarven barb can currently be as (or more) defensively sound as a fighter, this dynamic probably won't last forever.

[sigtrent]

WOW Barbarians really aren't tanks at all. (That was sarcastic in case you couldn't tell)

Keep in mind we are talking about tanking in the sense of a defensive character designed to pull and hold agro, not the more general concept of a melee combat character.

1. Barb's highest HP in game unless you gimp your fighter and take all toughness feats.
True, but a tank in a tough fight will need some healing and so long as you have a healer you don't generaly need much more than 400ph. HP beyond that are more or less luxury HP, nice but not really going to make a difference between success and failure.

2. Barb with power attack
DPS is not generaly considered one of the primary duties of a clasic tank character. Tanking isn't much of a D&D concept and comes more from other MMO games (which have their roots in D&D but play very differently) Barbarians unquestionably have the best melee DPS.

3. Who is better than taking Agro and keeping it than a Barb --- no one
Actualy anyone with a good intimidate score can easily take agro from a barbarian. Damage casters can also easily steal agro from you if they want to. (usualy they don't)

4. OMG a Barb again as they can shrug off dmg. **** a WF barb is the best at this with a docent of defiance
The only DR that is of much significance are the DR boost (which is nice but only in short bursts) and shield blocking. I saw one blocking barbarian build once (it was pretty cool) but generaly barbarians don't use shields and they don't block so a typical fighter tank will have much better effective DR.

5. hmm Fighter or ranger wins here but who cares on elite they are all getting hit so the HIGH damaging agro keeping barb makes it easy on the cleric by being the only one needing to be healed.

A properly built and equipped tank is not auto hit, not even close. It just takes somewhat extreem measures to get effective AC and few manage it. Generaly most barbarians I have played with do almost nothing in terms of agro management. They generaly play as single target assasins and don't try to pull agro for anything other than what they are currently attacking. Usualy for the easy to hit barbarian this is a good strategy.

[Impaqt]

Well Put Sig... I Was gonna relpy, but everything that went through my head was pretty rude.. ;)


Most people still dont know what a "Tank" realy is or their Function Is. The Term is thrown around so frequently its like Kleenex. Just about any Frontline melee build is considered a "Tank" Nowadays.


We need to come up with a new term for true Tanks.....

[sigtrent]

We need to come up with a new term for true Tanks.....

I think in DDO intimi-tank is a pretty good way to go. At least in end game if you get your AC up to the really high levels it takes to tank in the formal sense, you probably have to have intimidate to pull agro off the DPS crowd. So I'm not sure you really can Tank well wtihout intimidate.

My intimi tank is still low level, and down there his DPS is pretty good because no one has TWF or THF in a big way. My cleave is probably better DPS than the build that will one day make my DPS look shabby.

[Shade]

3. Who is better than taking Agro and keeping it than a Barb --- no one
Actualy anyone with a good intimidate score can easily take agro from a barbarian. Damage casters can also easily steal agro from you if they want to. (usualy they don't)


Plain 100% wrong as i've been posted for years. The best intimidatetank in the game have extreme difficulty at pulling any agro off my barbarian, has hardly happened ever.

I think you don't even play a intimitank at any reasonable high lvl and just love talking about it all the time, because clearly you have no idea how it works. After all these years of posting you should really get some actaul ingame experience before you talk about something with such confidence.

And it's something thats finally acknoledged by turbine.. Check the WDAs, they might be improving intimidate so it actaully generates enough agro to pull a mob off a max dps barbarian, because it certain doesn't now.

So no, no one is better at holding agro then a barbarian, not even someone with 100 initimidate - it plain does not work when your dps is that high.

DR: 7 passive vs 0 for fighter with no equipment on. Take the pit fiend elite, a fight that can generally take a half an hour or more.. Getting hit every second or more often.. over 10,000 dmg reduced vs your standard fighter.. Pretty freaking significant if you ask me.
Add in uncanny dodge and DR boost for superior DR and reflex save and the fighter is in the dust.

Add in superior hitpoints where suddenly in mod6 500+ HP does matter (again in the only fight where its actaully hard to tank - pit fiend elite) and you have a clear winner in the barbarian class.

Barbarians are the best "tank" in ddo.

Tho the idea of making a pure tank in ddo is laughable these days. It's all about dps.

[tenga]

i know for a fact that any cleric i raid with, prefers my raging 770hp dwarven barb as a main tank, over a 450hp fighter any day. most experienced clerics can get heals off for 500+hp, so a heal on a barb doesnt waste any more sp than a heal on a fighter. i guess anythings debatable, but i just happen to survive more often than fighters, and i think thats what matters in a raid.

[Depravity]

3. Who is better than taking Agro and keeping it than a Barb --- no one


Maybe not holding it, but nothing pulls agro away from the barb better than a pure rogue, subtle backstabbing feats and all.

Granted, the almost inevitable "squish" noise afterwards is sort of anticlimatic, but still. :D

[Mayen]

Heres the way I look at it. A tank has 3 things they need to provide to the table to be considered the "tank".

First. Have enough HP to survive. Dwarves are the undisputed king of HP.

Second. Provide agro (usually through straight DPS for a barbarian). Warforged are most capable for this area if built towards it, with increased power attack and brute fighting.

Third. Provide something in your build that makes you easyier to heal then the next guy.
This is almost the most important in my opinion. It's what seperates you from every other person swinging at the mob.
The three ways to do this is AC, DR, or healing amplification.

To get your AC as a barb into an acceptable range is either impossible, or you would have to sac yourself of the first two qualities in my opinion.

DR comes innate on a barbarian but only WF can use the docent of defiance for the dr 20/-.

With healing amp you make it so whomever is healing you gets more out of their heals. Only humans as a race get this enhancment (improved healing), which stacks with (multiplicative) healing amplification on green steel healing amp, and visions of destruction healing amp. Finger necklace stacks as well (additive only though) on top. It works on every type of thing that heals you, food, potions, wands, spells, scrolls, regen, divine healing, lay on hands and anything else I forgot to mention. Whats nice about this in my opinion is not the heal spell per say but the fact that clerics can use only heal scrolls on you and leave their mana for the other people in raid.

The last way is how I built my barbarian so I'm obviously biased towards it, but I have seen it work and seen it work WELL. Hes human with only 550 HP and 6 DR, but his healing amp is 179% of base (1.79 times whatever the cleric gets after mods). On visions I main tank it with everyone else on his backside. On normal often I only get healed with heal scrolls or wands. On elite the cleric assigned to me used a single mana pot while the rest of the raid used 24 total.

[Taerdra]

While I like your line of thinking, Healing Amplification is not really all that effective in the high end game due to how overpowered Heal and other cure spells can be at that level.

[maddmatt70]

While I like your line of thinking, Healing Amplification is not really all that effective in the high end game due to how overpowered Heal and other cure spells can be at that level.

Incorrect. Healing amplification is tremendous for the right builds; and in particular builds with less hit points. It is great for my battle bard, pretty useful on my lowish ac ranger, and I really want it on my battle sorc

[Taerdra]

Incorrect. Healing amplification is tremendous for the right builds; and in particular builds with less hit points. It is great for my battle bard, pretty useful on my lowish ac ranger, and I really want it on my battle sorc

We're talking about barbarians -- who rarely have low hit points and a barb tank most certainly will not have low hit points.

[Twerpp]

Dwarf
16 str
16 con
14 cha LOL I know but...

dont aim for ac, aim for intimidate/dr

toughness
shield mastery
imp shield mastery
imp crit slash
power attack
skill focus Intimidate

AP's max barb intimidate, crit rage, lots con and HP's but maybe cant afford them all. Dwarf shield mastery,Imp barb DR, power rage, and some in rage duration/extra rages.

Intimidate will hit 55ish after everything and intimidated targets will be shaken. When the time to intimidate is over just whip out a greataxe and you will have great DPS but just not the max that a barb can achieve. This is just off the top of my head but I think it will work.

[maddmatt70]

We're talking about barbarians -- who rarely have low hit points and a barb tank most certainly will not have low hit points.

You are the person that made the first generalization and not me when you said healing amplification sucks for high end content..

[Taerdra]

I made my statement in the context of the barbarian forums and in regard to a specific question/proposal on a barbarian-based tank. Secondly, I never said it sucked -- in fact I said I liked the poster's reading comprehension.

You managed to badly misinterpret one sentence twice... maybe you should try a different d20 next time you roll for reading comprehension.

[maddmatt70]

While I like your line of thinking, Healing Amplification is not really all that effective in the high end game due to how overpowered Heal and other cure spells can be at that level.


So tell me again how I misread this. Your post says Heal and cure spells make healing amplification in the high end game ineffective. No where does it say anything about barbarians or anything of that nature. Your insults are misplaced.

[Samadhi]

I have a barbarian intimitank - it rocks - but as someone else stated, AC is not the way to go.

DR, DR, DR - splash at least 1 ftr for tower shield proficiency for more DR. The barbarian "shaken" effect while intimidating is an awesome bonus as well.

Seriously, a DR intimitank can function very well as long as you know when to shield block and when not to. And the best part, since a DR intimitank does not have the dex requirements of an AC intimitank - there is a lot more room to build HP and/or damage output ability too. The flexibility is excellent.

PM me if you want more details on my build; but don't let the naysayers full you.

[Taerdra]

1) The name of the thread is "Building the Super Tank".
2) It is in the Barbarian forum.
3) The post I responded to (that is, above mine in the chain given you seem unable to follow the connection) was talking pretty specifically about leveraging Healing Amplification in order to build a tank from a barbarian-based template and a particular build the poster plays in that vein. Read his/her last two paragraphs.
4) I was agreeing with him that it was an interesting line of thought, but raising the question as to its effectiveness on said build.

You can keep choosing to take my statement out of its proper context if you like, willfully confuse my point and say that it was meant to include bards, rangers and sorcerers, and raise additional builds from other classes where Healing Amp may or may not be effective in your perspective.

I was talking to the specific post in the barb forum on possible tank builds, and none of that applies to what I said.

/signing off this point now

[Taerdra]

I have a barbarian intimitank - it rocks - but as someone else stated, AC is not the way to go.

DR, DR, DR - splash at least 1 ftr for tower shield proficiency for more DR. The barbarian "shaken" effect while intimidating is an awesome bonus as well.

Seriously, a DR intimitank can function very well as long as you know when to shield block and when not to. And the best part, since a DR intimitank does not have the dex requirements of an AC intimitank - there is a lot more room to build HP and/or damage output ability too. The flexibility is excellent.

PM me if you want more details on my build; but don't let the naysayers full you.

Do you the "shaken" enhancement? Sounds like it works pretty well...

[Thame]

I tried it once. Did not like it only because of elite quests. Never had enough damage to kill stuff fast when needed. A barbarians role in a party is simply put DPS. If you do not have dps then you are worse than a paladin.

Well if you mean how a barbarian can kill a mob 3 seconds faster then a paladin, then yes palys are worse, or perhaps the extra 200 hp for the barb keeps him alive 3-4 secs longer then yes palys are worse. OH and AC does matter on quests above normal. I really liked that challenge I had with a barbarian in the vale. We decided to see who could get the most kills in 15 mins, no clerics allowed only self healing, so on. After 10 mins the barb had me beat by 20 kills easily, but problem was he was dead. I easily outkilled him in the last 5 mins. Man was he ****ed, never said u won or gratz just dropped and tucked tail.

My palys DPS is almost as good as any barb and am willing to prove it anytime. Any contests someone wants to throw my palys way Im game. So your phrase worse then a paladin is unfounded and perhaps spoken by someone ignorant of how to build a paly. And FYI ignorant is not meant as a negative word.

[Twerpp]

I have a barbarian intimitank - it rocks - but as someone else stated, AC is not the way to go.

DR, DR, DR - splash at least 1 ftr for tower shield proficiency for more DR. The barbarian "shaken" effect while intimidating is an awesome bonus as well.

Seriously, a DR intimitank can function very well as long as you know when to shield block and when not to. And the best part, since a DR intimitank does not have the dex requirements of an AC intimitank - there is a lot more room to build HP and/or damage output ability too. The flexibility is excellent.

PM me if you want more details on my build; but don't let the naysayers full you.

Yeah and the cleric shield outta hound you dont need to splash anything its got killer DR on a heavy shield and no tower -2 penalty. Sweet frickin shield.

[Alcides]

Barbarians are pretty imbalanced as far as I am concerned. Save throws aren't an issue with the right gear/buffs. AC doesn't matter since you will get hit anyway on a raid boss past Reaver. And don't even get me started about Critical Rage II. This Enhancement is just nuts.

Fighters are slightly better off than paladins especially with 3-4 paladin splash levels. Giving Fighters Weapon Mastery/Supremacy Feats would go a long way to increasing their viability.

Paladins have seen a ton of nerf bats. (Divine Favor, losing Aura Bonuses etc) There's already been a ton of threads about Paladin Spell suggestions so I won't list them here. Righteous Fury would go a long way towards making paladins more viable. It's a wonder I ever get invited to Shroud on my paladin with all the anti-paladin sentiment these days.

Enjoy your heyday while it lasts barbarians...

[Mayen]

Taerdra you make a very good point about healing amplification and how overpowering HEAL can be at current levels. But I would hardly say it is ineffective based off just one spell and I hope these points show you my viewing as to why.

First of all yes the Heal spell when empowered or crit with the added enhancements and modifiers generally will overheal most barbarians even without healing amplifications. There are several reasons though that healing amp comes into play in the build to make it a more effecient build in my opinion.

Any spell other then empowered/crit Heal wont fill up a barbarian with over 500 hp unless used at a "spam" rate. If that same cleric turns off empower and using mana to heal you he could get up to 10-12 extra Heals overall and still heal you for more non empowered then the next barbarian with empower on.

You can use Heal scrolls in place of the Heal spell on a fully amped barb and allow mana savings for more important/ squisher targets. If you as a barb are stuck in a situation where you cant receive cleric healing you generally get 40-50 hp back for each CSW pot you drink instead of the 25-30.

Something I had not thought of until my cleric that I generally group with told me is he likes to splash heal me with smaller cure spells and keep me in a "sweet" spot and when he crits its not wasted like a crit on the Heal spell is. It also allows nearly anyone with healing ability to become a temporary cleric for you, and you dont have to worry about your healing falling behind the damage.

Also with hit points in the future going up due to items/lvl cap/enhancements while the cure spells do not increase there very well could be a large gap at 20 where only the Mass Heal spell will fill up a barbarian without healing amplification.

The big drawback of going the healing amp route is you need to alert the cleric/ healers in party that you have this ability or they will almost always overheal you and waste mana in the process. It also helps to generally group with the same set of clerics that get used to how to heal you since are not the same as everyone else. Lastly any cleric that only has one button, HEAL, is usually a waste unless they let you really get low (under 100 HP).

[esoitl]

How should I build a Barbarian class to be a super tanker:
Maxium hit points and maximum AC
(fight with shield and be able to sustain a lot of damage)
(be able to go toe to toe with monsters and slug it out, without major loss of HP and drain on cleric)

I'm thinking of starting with Dwarf race and maximixing STR 18 and CON 18, then max DEX with remaining of 28pts.

Then focus on Feats and Enhancements to increase each.
Which are recommended?

a 28pt can't get 18/18
a 32 can't get 18/18 and put points into DEX

[Twerpp]

a 28pt can't get 18/18
a 32 can't get 18/18 and put points into DEX

A dwarf will have 6 leftover.

[Taerdra]

Taerdra you make a very good point about healing amplification and how overpowering HEAL can be at current levels. But I would hardly say it is ineffective based off just one spell and I hope these points show you my viewing as to why.

First of all yes the Heal spell when empowered or crit with the added enhancements and modifiers generally will overheal most barbarians even without healing amplifications. There are several reasons though that healing amp comes into play in the build to make it a more effecient build in my opinion.

Any spell other then empowered/crit Heal wont fill up a barbarian with over 500 hp unless used at a "spam" rate. If that same cleric turns off empower and using mana to heal you he could get up to 10-12 extra Heals overall and still heal you for more non empowered then the next barbarian with empower on.

You can use Heal scrolls in place of the Heal spell on a fully amped barb and allow mana savings for more important/ squisher targets. If you as a barb are stuck in a situation where you cant receive cleric healing you generally get 40-50 hp back for each CSW pot you drink instead of the 25-30.

Something I had not thought of until my cleric that I generally group with told me is he likes to splash heal me with smaller cure spells and keep me in a "sweet" spot and when he crits its not wasted like a crit on the Heal spell is. It also allows nearly anyone with healing ability to become a temporary cleric for you, and you dont have to worry about your healing falling behind the damage.

Also with hit points in the future going up due to items/lvl cap/enhancements while the cure spells do not increase there very well could be a large gap at 20 where only the Mass Heal spell will fill up a barbarian without healing amplification.

The big drawback of going the healing amp route is you need to alert the cleric/ healers in party that you have this ability or they will almost always overheal you and waste mana in the process. It also helps to generally group with the same set of clerics that get used to how to heal you since are not the same as everyone else. Lastly any cleric that only has one button, HEAL, is usually a waste unless they let you really get low (under 100 HP).

Fair enough, and you clearly have a lot more experience with this than I do. There clearly is a big savings to the party as a whole in terms of resources from healing amplification (HA). "Ineffective" wasn't descriptive enough of my perspective.

I'm still not sure on how HA is better than just beefing up your HP or AC or DR or saves. The difficult piece from an analytical POV is how you seperate your survivability among the 4 or 5 elements we're discussing. For example, how much of your survival would you determine actually comes from HA vs. HP buffer, 50+ AC or 25+ DR (blocking)? This is overly theoretical, but HA is relatively dependent upon your actual HPs -- the more HPs you have or raw healing power is applied, the less impact HA should have, because you cannot get healed for more than your total HPs and anything above that is not relevant. I would guess that the majority of your survival comes from HP/AC/DR/saves and HA primarly helps optimizing those in an actual build as opposed to be the driver. That is to say, certain variables will "explain" the majority of your survival whereas others will either be superceded by the drivers or optimize the performance of the driver variables.

In a party, though, intimi-tanks generally make things (a) run smoother and (b) do so efficiently from a resource perspective. From that perspective, healing amplification is clearly helpful especially in terms of (b). I do like the idea of where you're going, just not clear to me that you would prioritize it over the other variables involved.

[Dark-Star]

For example, how much of your survival would you determine actually comes from HA vs. HP buffer, 50+ AC or 25+ DR (blocking)?

What you have to keep in mind is that they are not mutually exclusive.

HA with the Heal spell might be true, but for many raids mass heals are used in favor of Heal, and HA can have a significant impact on those, especially for a high hp character.

[Mayen]

Fair enough, and you clearly have a lot more experience with this than I do. There clearly is a big savings to the party as a whole in terms of resources from healing amplification (HA). "Ineffective" wasn't descriptive enough of my perspective.

I'm still not sure on how HA is better than just beefing up your HP or AC or DR or saves. The difficult piece from an analytical POV is how you seperate your survivability among the 4 or 5 elements we're discussing. For example, how much of your survival would you determine actually comes from HA vs. HP buffer, 50+ AC or 25+ DR (blocking)? This is overly theoretical, but HA is relatively dependent upon your actual HPs -- the more HPs you have or raw healing power is applied, the less impact HA should have, because you cannot get healed for more than your total HPs and anything above that is not relevant. I would guess that the majority of your survival comes from HP/AC/DR/saves and HA primarly helps optimizing those in an actual build as opposed to be the driver. That is to say, certain variables will "explain" the majority of your survival whereas others will either be superceded by the drivers or optimize the performance of the driver variables.

In a party, though, intimi-tanks generally make things (a) run smoother and (b) do so efficiently from a resource perspective. From that perspective, healing amplification is clearly helpful especially in terms of (b). I do like the idea of where you're going, just not clear to me that you would prioritize it over the other variables involved.

You are correct when you state that HP/AC/DR play a role in it depending on the character, HA alone wont get you through the day ever. High HP allow you to get max usage out of your HA. DR comes innate with every barb (I run with just 6 DR) so its going to cut a Percentage off based on how much DR you have and how hard the mob hits. AC though is a non issue for the barb, I generally run with about 11 AC (used to be 7 but alas couldnt keep it that low). I use robes or outfits for affects and quick switches which allows me as a barb to run with a 16 wis and a 24ish will save.

HA is just another way to become effecient to heal for that healer but not saying its going to be the best in every situation. It takes some finese to heal it and takes some trust by the barb to know that your cleric is watching you, since chances are they are gonna let you get a bit lower.

Lets break down prime example of a tank vs Sally in a vision of destruction. I will show the comparison of the dwarf 770 hp/6dr, WF with 600hp/20dr (using healers friend 3), and my build with 550hp/6dr. I will leave out shield blocking as the only time your doing this really is if your a full intimitank or if your not swinging in which case your losing your agro to others. We will put Sally at an average 50 damage a swing and 1 swing a second while using heal scrolls (If i remember correctly thats a 6 second cooldown) to conserve mana until each build has to use a real heal spell to top back off. Lets give cleric optimal usage of thier heal scrolls using the enhancement that increases wand/scroll percentage of 40%. I will not include the problem with cursed wound as that is static accross the board.

Dwarf 770hp/6dr, 1 swing a second at 44 damage taken per swing. The dwarf every 6 seconds is going to lose 110 hp (264 damage, 154 healed)behind the heal scroll so after 42 seconds that dwarf will HAVE to have a full heal spell put on him to top him back off. Not to bad at all.

WF 600hp/20 DR, 1 swing a second at 30 damage taken per swing. The WF every 6 seconds is going to fall just 64 HP (180 damage, 115.5 healed)behind the heal scroll (rounded down from 64.5) and after 54 seconds that WF will have to have a full heal to top him off.

Human 550hp/6dr, 79% HA, 1 swing a second at 44 damage taken per swing. The human every 6 seconds will acctually have a net gain of 11 hp (264 taken, 275 healed) from the heal scroll over the damage taken. And will not need mana to top off with a full heal.

Now in the cases of the Dwarf and WF they can get very close to the same numbers if they invest in a tier 3 GS HA 30% item and finger necklace, and both builds are very viable with/without. Both builds have their bonuses over the human HA build too that are not listed here, so by no means am I stating my is superior.

I would also like to thank you for the clear questioning and not trying to turn this into a your wrong I'm right kind of post as so often happens.

[Aeneas]

Axer man, you really think i can't pull mobs off of you with intimidate? It's got nothing to do with dps, bro, it's a completely separate mechanic. And the timer is only 6 seconds now, i can chain intimidate and never lose aggro for more than one swing in a direction other than my own.

Did i miss something or am i a big dumb dumb and misread what you wrote?

[maddmatt70]

Axer man, you really think i can't pull mobs off of you with intimidate? It's got nothing to do with dps, bro, it's a completely separate mechanic. And the timer is only 6 seconds now, i can chain intimidate and never lose aggro for more than one swing in a direction other than my own.

Did i miss something or am i a big dumb dumb and misread what you wrote?

This is a very old thread that was raised from the dead.. Axer unfortunately has departed for greener pastures..

[CSFurious]

because there is always going to be a healer

i am sure that after 2 hours, you & some monks without a healer would have every spawn in the vale dead

2 barbs, 1 tempest ranger, 1 bard, 1 cleric, & a sor would tear that vale up in about 30 to 45 minutes

what was your point?


Well if you mean how a barbarian can kill a mob 3 seconds faster then a paladin, then yes palys are worse, or perhaps the extra 200 hp for the barb keeps him alive 3-4 secs longer then yes palys are worse. OH and AC does matter on quests above normal. I really liked that challenge I had with a barbarian in the vale. We decided to see who could get the most kills in 15 mins, no clerics allowed only self healing, so on. After 10 mins the barb had me beat by 20 kills easily, but problem was he was dead. I easily outkilled him in the last 5 mins. Man was he ****ed, never said u won or gratz just dropped and tucked tail.

My palys DPS is almost as good as any barb and am willing to prove it anytime. Any contests someone wants to throw my palys way Im game. So your phrase worse then a paladin is unfounded and perhaps spoken by someone ignorant of how to build a paly. And FYI ignorant is not meant as a negative word.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't know what you guys are talking about in regards to intimidate. As far as I have noticed, when I hit intimidate, I pull anything that I have a high enough check for. I can walk up to Suul after a barbarian has been beating on him for 10 minutes, and grab aggro. Yeah, it's very brief, but even 6 seconds can be a big deal. I did this the other night by accident while trying to collect the devils that spawned outside of my zone.

And my intimidate is just breaking 40. No skill focus, no bullheaded, no +13 item (unfortunately).

Sure, as soon as that timer wears off, whatever the barb was smacking will race right over to begin smacking him back, but it seems that a high enough intimidate check will pull any monster off of any monster (PC) for that short window.

[Dawnblade]

because there is always going to be a healer

Well not necessarily. Healers do die sometimes. All it takes is a couple seconds of mishandled aggro or aoe spell. In those cases however, if I'm playing a paladin, I'd most likely back away from the battle and try to keep the team alive. To me, that is the essence of the paladin: temporarily fill in the gaps caused by unforseen circustances. Of course other people are free to play their paladins however they want.


I don't know what you guys are talking about in regards to intimidate. As far as I have noticed, when I hit intimidate, I pull anything that I have a high enough check for. I can walk up to Suul after a barbarian has been beating on him for 10 minutes, and grab aggro. Yeah, it's very brief, but even 6 seconds can be a big deal. I did this the other night by accident while trying to collect the devils that spawned outside of my zone.


Like Madmatt said, this is an older thread. It's possible that back in April intimidade didn't work the way it does now.