Dual Supreme shards at tier 3:Dominate foci bug

[Bradik_Losdar]

Okay, I have a bit of a gripe here for the developers.

I have worked very hard to get enough large ingredients for 2 supreme shards. However, because of the "dominant foci" structure in effect, I cannot customize my item as I would like. I thought the whole point of the Shroud raid loot/crafting was to be able to do just that.

Here's my situation: I want to use a negative shard with a positive shard at tier 3 to get the Exceptional Int +2 AND concordant opposition II for my WIZARD character. However, from what the crafting sources say, the positive shard will dominate thus giving me a next to useless +2 Cha enhancement instead of Int on my WIZARD. Now if I had a Sorceror, I'd be happy as happy can be - but I don't - I have a WIZARD.

My suggestion would be to make the first shard placed in the altar the dominant one. This would give a lot more flexability in using our very hard earned ingredients they way we want to. I'm sure I'm not alone here - there are surely others out there too who would like to craft an item a certain way, but because of this "dominant foci" bug (yes, I consider it a bug) cannot customize their item to fit their character.

Please devs, look into this. Any help you can give would sure go a long way! :)

Edit: spelling errors - lol

[Cowdenicus]

SIGNED.

I would love good blast as opposed to acid blast.

[ChildrenofBodom]

/shrug

Dominance makes sense to me. I think it's fine.

[Bradik_Losdar]

/shrug

Dominance makes sense to me. I think it's fine.

Makes sense how? (Why is fire more "dominant" than earth, for example?) It's a game, the coders can set it up anyway they wish (or maybe I should say can set it up anyway their paying customers wish - lol!)

If they are going to give us the ability to make some cool items, why have any pre-determined "dominance"? Let us pick what is dominant and what isn't - especially after all the hard work we did to get to that point! ;)

Edit: spelling errors

[Dariuss]

well.... i'm not arguing against your point... but, there does need to be some sort of structure/rules in place for making items.

And there's a fair amount of possible combinations.

[Lithic]

Are you sure that the weapon effect is when you are hit as well? The only screenshots I have are of items like bracers and goggles.

If the weapon effect is when you hit something then it would be pretty useless for most wizards right?

[Bradik_Losdar]

Are you sure that the weapon effect is when you are hit as well? The only screenshots I have are of items like bracers and goggles.

If the weapon effect is when you hit something then it would be pretty useless for most wizards right?

EDIT: Please see thread #18 below for an update - it changes my response in this thread (as I now want to make my weapon with Concordant Opposition again. lol!)

My understanding is that it only works when you attack with the weapon - so very good point! :eek:

I don't really get up close and personal all that often and the 1% chance of the concordant opposition II effect going off (the added HP or SP) would make it a rare, rare thing for me indeed. Guess it would be better to save the extra ingredients for something else...:D

That said, I still think items crafted with dual supreme shards should be open for us to choose what the dominant foci is. It's as easy as just assigning dominace to the first shard placed in the altar - no need for a complicted (aka "Vast and Mysterious") system of Positive dominates Negative, Fire dominates Earth, Air dominates, etc, etc, etc. It would give crafters a lot more options on the items they are building. And isn't that a good thing for everyone?

(Side note: It really doesn't make sense to me why items which produce an equilibrium (concordant opposition, balance of earth and sky, etc) would have a "dominant" part at all - but hey it's just a game after all, lol. ;))

[FluffyCalico]

HM are you sure it works that way? The reason I ask is the crafting site I used to make mine said to be very careful to put the shards in the right order as the order did effect dominance on a few items. Was the site wrong? I can't say for sure as i a wanted positive to be dominate and put it in first. So it could be that positive is dominate reguardless like your site said or it might be the order, I can't say for sure.

[GrayOldDruid]

Okay, I have a bit of a gripe here for the developers.

I have worked very hard to get enough large ingredients for 2 supreme shards. However, because of the "dominant foci" structure in effect, I cannot customize my item as I would like. I thought the whole point of the Shroud raid loot/crafting was to be able to do just that.

Here's my situation: I want to use a negative shard with a positive shard at tier 3 to get the Exceptional Int +2 AND concordant opposition II for my WIZARD character. However, from what the crafting sources say, the positive shard will dominate thus giving me a next to useless +2 Cha enhancement instead of Int on my WIZARD. Now if I had a Sorceror, I'd be happy as happy can be - but I don't - I have a WIZARD.

My suggestion would be to make the first shard placed in the altar the dominant one. This would give a lot more flexability in using our very hard earned ingredients they way we want to. I'm sure I'm not alone here - there are surely others out there too who would like to craft an item a certain way, but because of this "dominant foci" bug (yes, I consider it a bug) cannot customize their item to fit their character.

Please devs, look into this. Any help you can give would sure go a long way! :)

Edit: spelling errors - lol

True, True... Signed.

[Sanadil]

HM are you sure it works that way? The reason I ask is the crafting site I used to make mine said to be very careful to put the shards in the right order as the order did effect dominance on a few items. Was the site wrong? I can't say for sure as i a wanted positive to be dominate and put it in first. So it could be that positive is dominate reguardless like your site said or it might be the order, I can't say for sure.

The site wasn't really "wrong", I mean it was, but may not have been updated since it was discovered dominant focus was how things were working. You can place them in any order on the alter, and you would always get positive over negative.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

So, I'm confused. I'm gathering the 24 ingredients necessary for a third upgrade.

It's gloves.

Altar 1: Greater Fire Resistance -FIRE
Altar 2: Dex skills and 15 HP - AIR

Plans for Altar 3:
100 SP +3 Cha skills - AIR
20 HP +3 Dex skills - FIRE

Are you saying that I will only get ONE of those two bonuses at the third altar depending on which is more dominant: fire or air?

Do I get both or not? Or do I just get the permanent Blur and only ONE of the other two third tier effects?

Please let me know, because I really only want the 100 SP and +3 Cha skills, the other is just a bonus because I went Air and Fire on the first two altars. I'm gonna be really peeved if I screw this up...

Oh, so which is more Dominant: Air or Fire?

[tihocan]

So, I'm confused. I'm gathering the 24 ingredients necessary for a third upgrade.

It's gloves.

Altar 1: Greater Fire Resistance -FIRE
Altar 2: Dex skills and 15 HP - AIR

Plans for Altar 3:
100 SP +3 Cha skills - AIR
20 HP +3 Dex skills - FIRE

Are you saying that I will only get ONE of those two bonuses at the third altar depending on which is more dominant: fire or air?

Do I get both or not? Or do I just get the permanent Blur and only ONE of the other two third tier effects?

Please let me know, because I really only want the 100 SP and +3 Cha skills, the other is just a bonus because I went Air and Fire on the first two altars. I'm gonna be really peeved if I screw this up...

Oh, so which is more Dominant: Air or Fire?
Fire dominates air.
Here (http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~delallea/ddo/shroud/cgi-bin/shroud.cgi?item=gloves&weapon=weapon&effects=greater_fire_res,smoke_screen_&groups=plus_15_hp&altar=3) are your choices (in green) given your tier 1 & 2 upgrades, and assuming you want smoke screen as special tier 3 bonus.

[RichD]

So, I'm confused. I'm gathering the 24 ingredients necessary for a third upgrade.

It's gloves.

Altar 1: Greater Fire Resistance -FIRE
Altar 2: Dex skills and 15 HP - AIR

Plans for Altar 3:
100 SP +3 Cha skills - AIR
20 HP +3 Dex skills - FIRE

Are you saying that I will only get ONE of those two bonuses at the third altar depending on which is more dominant: fire or air?

Do I get both or not? Or do I just get the permanent Blur and only ONE of the other two third tier effects?

Please let me know, because I really only want the 100 SP and +3 Cha skills, the other is just a bonus because I went Air and Fire on the first two altars. I'm gonna be really peeved if I screw this up...

Oh, so which is more Dominant: Air or Fire?

As someone indicated, you only get one of the third-tier effects and Fire dominates Air. So, if you want the Smoke concealment special your choices are:

+10 Fire Resistance
100 SP, +3 INT skills
+2 Reflex save (Insight bonus)
20 HP, +3 DEX skills
Fire Guard
Superior Fire Lore

The alternative of course is to just use a single shard of Air and get the 100SP, +3 CHR skills, but forgoe the Smoke concealment bonus (and save the shard and ingredients for another item).

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Thanks RichD.

Well, that kinda sucks but I'm glad I found out before doing the upgrade!!!

Finally, can you point me somewhere that describes what dominates what, posted in some kind of order? I don't recall ever having seen that anywhere and it will impact the dual-shard items I am planning for other characters.

Thanks.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Sorry, one more question:

So, if I don't need to bother with dual-shards to get the permanent Blur (as I said, the 100 SP and +3 Cha skills is what I want), then I could go with the Positive formula or the Air one, correct? It won't matter anymore at this time whether I go Fire+Air+Air or Fire+Air+Positive, right? It just might make the ingredients I need to get easier to manage, that's why I'm asking.

[ealdon]

So, I'm confused. I'm gathering the 24 ingredients necessary for a third upgrade.

It's gloves.

Altar 1: Greater Fire Resistance -FIRE
Altar 2: Dex skills and 15 HP - AIR

Plans for Altar 3:
100 SP +3 Cha skills - AIR
20 HP +3 Dex skills - FIRE

Are you saying that I will only get ONE of those two bonuses at the third altar depending on which is more dominant: fire or air?

Do I get both or not? Or do I just get the permanent Blur and only ONE of the other two third tier effects?

Please let me know, because I really only want the 100 SP and +3 Cha skills, the other is just a bonus because I went Air and Fire on the first two altars. I'm gonna be really peeved if I screw this up...

Oh, so which is more Dominant: Air or Fire?

so tier one you went
Fire/opposition/Material

and tier two you went
Air/Escalation/Material

and for three you're planning
Air/Escalation/Material for 100 SP and
Fire/Escalation/Material for 20 HP

My understanding is that you'll only get the dominant one, and I thought it was Fire, but am not sure. Also, I thought I read somewhere that the gem and the essence from tier 1 and 2 had to match to do the combined shard. I'm not sure if that means that the gem and essence for the fire focus in part one has to match the gem and essence in the fire focus in part 3, and the gem and essence from Air focus in part two has to match the Air focus for part 3, or that the gem and essence have to be the same throughout. I've heard a lot of people complain after ruining items, so I'd love an explanation of that. But one thing I see in your plans is that the gem is different from the tier 1 shard and the tier 3 shard you're planning. Any experts out there?

[Shima-ra]

I think dominance makes sense.
Usually the dominated focus has the better option, like +3 cha skill or good blast etc.
It forces you to make a choice, where else everyone would take the most-uber option.

If you dont have choices to make, then is it really crafting ?

[Bradik_Losdar]

Are you sure that the weapon effect is when you are hit as well? The only screenshots I have are of items like bracers and goggles.

If the weapon effect is when you hit something then it would be pretty useless for most wizards right?

A bit of a follow up:

According to the current thread in the in the General Discussion forum on this subject, it it seems that Concordant Opposition (and Air Guard) will activate when the owner is hit by an enemy regardless of whether the equipped green steel item is a weapon or clothing.

Sure would be nice to get some official Dev input on whether or not this is indeed the way it works. I know a lot of folks would like to know!

[Lithic]

A bit of a follow up:

According to the current thread in the in the General Discussion forum on this subject, it it seems that Concordant Opposition (and Air Guard) will activate when the owner is hit by an enemy regardless of whether the equipped green steel item is a weapon or clothing.

Sure would be nice to get some official Dev input on whether or not this is indeed the way it works. I know a lot of folks would like to know!

If you look at the link marked "weapon" on that line, it links to a picture of bracers. I have yet to see a screenshot of a weapon. I would be hesitant to assume it is when the holder gets hit for the weapon, though it is admitedly possible, and probably more likely since you get hit much less than you hit something as a melee bard/cleric/caster.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

If you look at the link marked "weapon" on that line, it links to a picture of bracers. I have yet to see a screenshot of a weapon. I would be hesitant to assume it is when the holder gets hit for the weapon, though it is admitedly possible, and probably more likely since you get hit much less than you hit something as a melee bard/cleric/caster.

My screenshots page (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/elements.html) has links to both weapons and items for both air guard and concordant opposition and they both behave as described.


Finally, can you point me somewhere that describes what dominates what, posted in some kind of order? I don't recall ever having seen that anywhere and it will impact the dual-shard items I am planning for other characters

I think you've already got the answer to this, but the order is: water, fire, earth, air, positive, negative with the exception that air beats water.


I have worked very hard to get enough large ingredients for 2 supreme shards. However, because of the "dominant foci" structure in effect, I cannot customize my item as I would like. I thought the whole point of the Shroud raid loot/crafting was to be able to do just that.

I agree this is frustrating. There have been some theories that, as far as I know, haven't been disproved yet that concern varying the gem that is put into the tier 3 altar in order to control the dominance of the elements. We know that differing essences will cause failure, but I do not believe anyone has tried differing gems.

I here propose a theory whereby gems would control the dominance in a 'rock/paper/scissors' fashion. e.g. assign each gem type to one of the rock/paper/scissors:

escalation = rock
dominion = paper
opposition = scissors

This allows any combination of thier tier effects to be formed. e.g. say you want -OE on your concordant opposition (so you have to combine positive with negative but also get opposition ethereal) In this case you would combine

negative opposition ethereal
positive dominion ethereal

opposition (scissors) beats dominion (paper) so you end up with what you want. If you wanted +OE on your concordant opposition then you could go:

negative opposition ethereal
positive opposition ethereal

and just let opposition 'draw' with opposition, at which point we've already seen what happens with existing items: the 'old' elemental dominance rules come into play - where positive always wins.

If you wanted to be 'sure' then you would go:

negative dominion ethereal
positive opposition ethereal

and the opposition beats dominion and you end up with +OE with concordant opposition.

Another more useful example: to get +DM on a mineral II weapon, you would combine +DM with EEM.

Now, this is all very hypothetical, but it can all be proved wrong pretty quickly - by someone just trying to combine two supreme
shards with different gems :)

Note: It has to be rock paper scissors and not just plain gem dominance because otherwise all the combinations aren't made available.

Garth

[Bradik_Losdar]

My screenshots page (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/elements.html) has links to both weapons and items for both air guard and concordant opposition and they both behave as described.

Thanks for the link! That's exactly the screenshot I needed to see.
(sure is nice that both weapons and clothing have the same "protection" to activate the additional HP and SP effect)

Now about your "dominance" theory...

Are you proposing that the Devs should set up a system like this OR that this system is already in effect and it just hasn't been tested yet?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Are you proposing that the Devs should set up a system like this OR that this system is already in effect and it just hasn't been tested yet?

The devs won't change the existing crafting system. I propose that this might already be in the game, but we won't know until someone tries different gem types. I do put the chance of success as pretty low though...

Garth

[Bradik_Losdar]

The devs won't change the existing crafting system. I propose that this might already be in the game, but we won't know until someone tries different gem types. I do put the chance of success as pretty low though...

Garth

Ah, thanks. I will try this (gem dominance theory) with my tier 3 upgrade. Unfortunately I don't have the required gem ingredients - so it's off to the Shroud a few more times to gather more large parts. lol! :rolleyes:

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Ah, thanks. I will try this (gem dominance theory) with my tier 3 upgrade. Unfortunately I don't have the required gem ingredients - so it's off to the Shroud a few more times to gather more large parts. lol! :rolleyes:

Be advised that in the probable event that this doesn't work, then your shards will not combine. With great risk comes great reward. Don't blame me if it doesn't work :) :)

Garth

[tihocan]

But let us know if you try it! I originally had in mind to try the varying essence myself, but gave up on it after hearing someone had tried and it didn't work.
Now, I really don't expect varying gems to work (mostly because varying the essence would have been simpler) although that would be awesome.

[Bradik_Losdar]

Bad news.

I did my Tier 3 upgrade and Positive won out despite the gem types I used (apparently - see below).

Here's my process:

Negative Supreme Shard of Power - Negative, Escalation, Ethereal (+2 Exceptional Intelligence)
Positive Supreme Shard of Power - Positive, Opposition, Ethereal (+4 AC insight - thought in case things went bad the AC would be better than an almost useless +2 Charisma boost for my wizard character)

I placed the Negative shard on the alter first (hoping this might help - it didn't). Following the "Gem theory" stated earlier, Escalation should trump Opposition (Rock > Scissors). Unfortuanately it didn't. So apparently either the gem theory is nonsense or Escalation doesn't beat Opposition (or I somehow screwed something up).

However, looking at other examples I think the Tier 3 dual supreme upgrade system is entirely based on, and only on, Elemental dominance. (The only other "variable" would be an item's affinity, but the Concordant Opposition dagger listed in the link provided earlier has a Negative affinity and yet it was built with the +2 Cha without problem; proving once again that the positive supreme shard will dominate regardless of other factors)

So in the end I got an additional +4 to my AC which is way less useful than the +2 Intelligence would have been for my Wizard (but better than any of the other Positive options). Looking back I should have just gone with the single Shard upgrade for the Intelligence - the 1% chance of gaining 30 SP and/or 30 HP when I get hit is not worth the trade off for the consistent extra SP and spell enhancements the +2 would have given me. My only hope now is that with Mod 7, the crafting deconstruction works on green steel items.

In ending, I still think instead of having an overly complicated "dominace" system in place the devs ought to just make it simpler (and much more flexible!) by making the first shard placed in the altar the one which "dominates".

[tihocan]

Negative Supreme Shard of Power - Negative, Escalation, Ethereal (+2 Exceptional Intelligence)
Positive Supreme Shard of Power - Positive, Opposition, Ethereal (+4 AC insight - thought in case things went bad the AC would be better than an almost useless +2 Charisma boost for my wizard character)

I placed the Negative shard on the alter first (hoping this might help - it didn't). Following the "Gem theory" stated earlier, Escalation should trump Opposition (Rock > Scissors). Unfortuanately it didn't. So apparently either the gem theory is nonsense or Escalation doesn't beat Opposition (or I somehow screwed something up).
Ooh that's extremely interesting, the two shards combined even though the gems were different? And what was the resulting shard's gem exactly?

[Bradik_Losdar]

Lol - you know I don't even think I looked at the title of the final shard (I was just happy I didn't lose anything!)

But I hate to say it, after what you said I am beginning to worry I could have messed up. What I mean is I was so focused on getting the gem (opposition) on the Positive shard to be subserviant to the Negative (escalation) maybe I accidently made both shards with opposition?? I am pretty sure I assembled the right parts for both shards, but I was interrupted several times by friends tells during the process.

Gah! I sure hope I didn't do that, I was trying to be so careful. Now the whole experiment is in doubt in my mind. Crud. :mad:

[Bradik_Losdar]

Another update (not on my item, but thought it would be helpful for other folks):

I helped a guildie out with the creation of a dual shard item he was creating (I donated a few spare large items) and told him to carefully document his process so if he made a mistake or had success he could pass that info along to us. Here's what he was going for:

Tier 3 Goggles Air/Negative for +3 dex skills & +20hp, Trap the Soul (Aspect of Vaccum) effect.

He said he made the two following supreme shards:

Air - Air, Escalation, Material
Negative - Negative, Opposition, Material

He said they did not, repeat did NOT, combine when put in the altar together with a power cell. It looks like when combining dual supreme shards the gems and essences (Escalation, Material) MUST match exactly in each shard and only the elemental parts (air, negative) can be varied.

Oh well, now there's a second person hoping that the "deconstruction" crafting process in Mod 7 works on Shroud items - lol!

(As an aside, I must have screwed up the process (thankfully!) somewhere in my experiment (see above) because I did end up with a combined shard)

[jjflanigan]

He said they did not, repeat did NOT, combine when put in the altar together with a power cell. It looks like when combining dual supreme shards the gems and essences (Escalation, Material) MUST match exactly in each shard and only the elemental parts (air, negative) can be varied.

doh! Yep, unfortunately for him that knowledge has been on the forums for a few weeks now (and I think even all the crafting planners include that logic). :(