WF Hate :(

[Cowdenicus]

I am seeing alot of WF hate recently.

I have created two new WF, a Paladin and a Bard. I just have seen people refusing to heal WF, and some even refuse groups. It makes me sad, especially on my bard.

Signed,
2 Lonely Warforged on Ghallanda.

[Asirin]

I know I've copied your Alts down....

Now I just have to sit and wait for you to request to join....MUAHAHAHAHAHA

:)

No seriously anyone ignorant enuf to refuse a RACE into a group is someone I don't want to group with in the first place.

As far as healing goes I know what I'm up against when I roll a Warforged and am actually surprised when i do get a heal from someone other than myself.

[Impaqt]

You took 2 classes that benefit greatly from Charisma, made em warforged, and youdontunderstand why Pugs would be gunshy?

Seriously dude.. Those are guild builds.....

[MrCow]

Sigh, its really sad to see people being discriminated because they are mostly livewood. It happens and (from what I can infer) it mostly stems from ignorance, bad prior experiences, or healers who feel that you infringe on their divine recuperative ways. I hope you better luck in the future with your groups. After playing Warforged for a year and a half I can empathize with the discrimination issues.

Edit: There was a comment here... but its better that it isn't here.

[Cowdenicus]

You took 2 classes that benefit greatly from Charisma, made em warforged, and youdontunderstand why Pugs would be gunshy?

Seriously dude.. Those are guild builds.....

Oh funny, I thought they were fun builds.

[FluffyCalico]

I am seeing alot of WF hate recently.

I have created two new WF, a Paladin and a Bard. I just have seen people refusing to heal WF, and some even refuse groups. It makes me sad, especially on my bard.

Signed,
2 Lonely Warforged on Ghallanda.

That is because there are a ton of WF that won't take healers friend.

Kinda like if 9 out of 10 dogs bite you on site will you go pet #11?

[Guaire]

I am seeing alot of WF hate recently.

I have created two new WF, a Paladin and a Bard. I just have seen people refusing to heal WF, and some even refuse groups. It makes me sad, especially on my bard.

Signed,
2 Lonely Warforged on Ghallanda.

It was me! Guaire's so gimped that people serverwide run and hide when the Warforged Pallies come calling. Muhahahaha!!

:D

[Delt]

I have 2 warforged (14wiz/2rog and a 9bard/7barb) that were made relatively recently and to be honest, I never felt any hate due to the race...I did get a fair amount of hate due to the class layouts (especially the bardbarian). But strictly speaking, it was probably less hate than a received on my recent two TWF 3-class mutts (drow dex build and a dwarf str build).

PUGs in general are fairly sketchy about running non-optimum groups, especially with poor leaders. Seems to be more an issue of class than race...and if my personal experience is any indication, Thelanis is fairly WF-friendly (so reroll yer WF's there :) )

[studentx]

That is because there are a ton of WF that won't take healers friend.

Kinda like if 9 out of 10 dogs bite you on site will you go pet #11?

Take a caster that will heal the frog, if they don't boot the caster.

[wolfy42]

Um both WF bards and pally's can be quite good and are not gimped builds at all.

WF bards get displacement and the ability to have high AC and DR as well.

Pally's can self heal with lay on hands, can have very high ac and some DR.

Silly to discriminate against them.

Just start your own group if people are acting like that:)

[Ghoste]

I'm fine with people hating WF. I just push the experience through my twisted soul and it comes out as fuel for my fleshling hate.

Keep it coming, meatbags!

[Ghoste]

That is because there are a ton of WF that won't take healers friend.

Kinda like if 9 out of 10 dogs bite you on site will you go pet #11?
So if 9 out of 10 clerics dont heal usual warforged (or heal them less at any rate) because so many warforged dont take healer's friend, then why do 9 out of 10 clerics continually attempt to heal an arcane warforged who has taken improved fortification, ignoring the immune floaty that appears when they do so?

[Lithic]

So if 9 out of 10 clerics dont heal usual warforged (or heal them less at any rate) because so many warforged dont take healer's friend, then why do 9 out of 10 clerics continually attempt to heal an arcane warforged who has taken improved fortification, ignoring the immune floaty that appears when they do so?

Obviously to fuel thier "WF SUCK! and are hard to heal so why bother!" Mentality :D

[Naturelaughslast]

Although you builds are..interesting, I find people who hate WF don't have much experience. Yes at low levels they are a pain to heal for clerics (if there is more then one in group) but if built correctly they tend to take less damage and once clerics get the heal spell later on the maintenance is easy. Also you bard should have no problem with reconstruction scrolls later as my last shroud raid I was healing the WF fighter with them..who also needed less healing against the pit fiend then anyone else. WF are not a bad race, its just newer people to the game looking at your build may find it sketchy, lets face it, already ignorant people aren't to open to builds that aren't "optimum" for a group like Delt mentioned earlier.

[LazarusPossum]

I started out with a Paladin Warforged just for fun, but now I've been tweaking him to be a repairman especially for Warforged. If the squishies won't repair us, why should my WF Pally heal them?

[Nevthial]

I don't mind healing Warforged characters with my Wizard or Paladin. As a matter of fact, my Wizard whom I do mild roleplay with, prefers Warforged over flesh. We don't even have any in our static group, yet he is constantly ready to repair them. In his eyes, THEY are the superior ones. Not bound to pitiful flesh and bone. Not ravaged as easily by the forces of time. Flesh is weak.

[FluffyCalico]

Ever see a WF solo the rust emperor by accident lol.

[Borror0]

You took 2 classes that benefit greatly from Charisma, made em warforged, and youdontunderstand why Pugs would be gunshy?

Paladin: Your cha should not be higher than 12, being WF or Dwarf isn't much of a penalty. (The hit to Wis makes it a little harder but not much.)

Bard: If Warchanter, Cha is pretty much a dump stat. Enough to cast, then move on. So, again, around 11 or 12 base.

[Cowdenicus]

Paladin: Your cha should not be higher than 12, being WF or Dwarf isn't much of a penalty. (The hit to Wis makes it a little harder but not much.)

Bard: If Warchanter, Cha is pretty much a dump stat. Enough to cast, then move on. So, again, around 11 or 12 base.

My Pally Cha base is 12 coincidentally, My WarforgedChanters base Cha was 13.

[kamimitsu]

All my characters have WF love. My WF greataxe-wielder (13Barb/2Ftr) gets plenty of loving from guildies and PUGs alike.　　I make sure to carry lots of wands and pots. I always tell the clerics that I have only 1 rank of Healer's Friend (1 rank isn't that bad an AP cost). I also think it's important to ask the arcanes if they can whip me with a wand (supplied by yours truly) between battles. They almost always say, "Sure, just remind me if I forget" or "No problem, I already have some wands". Also, (and I think this goes a long way for WF/arcane relations) I apologize for making them healers, as I know that wasn't their intention when rolling a caster... and I let them know that I WILL get hit, and probably get hit ALOT, but I have plenty of HP and if I die in battle it's my own fault, just tote me the next available shrine. Between battles wand whipping is all I need. At higher levels, the cleric often steps in with something like "My heals hit for 600hp, I got you little buddy!"

As for my rogues (both halflings, my 10Rog soon replacing the 16Rog with *issues*)... there's nothing better than telling the WF in the party "stand still for a minute" and clicking the old "way of the mechanic". It's awesome when they've never seen it before. I hit a WF cleric yesterday with it, and he was positively glowing the rest of the mission. Sure, at high levels it's not gonna cut it, but in lowbie/midbie land it brings a smile to their nearly expressionless faces.

I'm looking at rolling up a WF wizzie next... beholders beware.

[Borror0]

My Pally Cha base is 12 coincidentally, My WarforgedChanters base Cha was 13.

Yeah, you're ThF so you've got left over points. My dwarf warchanter is TwF, he didn't have the free points for more than 11.:p

[mehlinda]

It's not always hate that people don't want wf in their party. Sometimes it's more inconvienience and much of the time it's ignorance of their capabilities. I play a cleric alot of the time and I never complain about healing wf but when I run Shrouds or groups that include wf I do try to make sure the group can handle the responsibility of ,say, a wf barbarian by asking the casters if they mind memming or reconstruct or using scrolls ( or wands and lesser spells in lesser quests ). A complaint I do have just as a player about wf in general is that many join parties and just assume that they will be taken care of and don't have small necessities that help insure their survival or offer to provide wands and or scrolls to those who can and are willing to use them. I think it's wrong to assume a sorc is going to load wands and remember to watch your bar or that a wizzie is going to unmem a spell they might like to use and then become a cleric for the time being. It's this inconsiderate behavior that leads to people not wanting wf in their groups.

That being said, I often group with wf and many are in my guild ( IFV). I have heard a wf say I don't have plat for pots or wands or scrolls and not realize that this translates into me or whoever having to use my own resources to provide the same thing. How can that be right? So here comes the OP with two toons that are not the norm and even though people might be narrow-minded in their assumptions, he has created two characters who appear to have the capability to be a drain to the party. I know the OP is a knowledgable player and frequent poster, but that does not change the way people who do not think outside the box think about builds and can easily lead to wf discrimination. So now the Op has to be an educator and assume the mantle for creating these two fun builds.

In the meantime, players of wf need to realize that what they know or feel about their toons is not as relevant to groups as how they are percieved by the groups. Others perceptions are what is true to them and wf will have to overcome the stigma of being not this or not that by being considerate of the little things that a few might take for granted.

The biggest complaint people have is of course the healing tax. You overcome this by supplying the wands and scrolls and being considerate to ask those you need to have employ their use. The second is the inconvienience of the healers role of a caster who has to adjust his play style to be the wf's cleric. Realize that he is changing his play style to accomodate you and perhaps he will not mind.

Of course many wf are totally self-sufficient and will take care of other wf... these are the ones who will also lead by example..


my 2 cents

[Cambo]

I have a WF Wizard with about 100 HP (8th Level) and he only plays in PUG's
I usually let it drop to half before using repair crit...but often the cleric has already healed me...
maybe I am lucky but its never been a problem..

[Kris_P._Letus]

I am seeing alot of WF hate recently.

I have created two new WF, a Paladin and a Bard. I just have seen people refusing to heal WF, and some even refuse groups. It makes me sad, especially on my bard.

Signed,
2 Lonely Warforged on Ghallanda.

cow, i couldnt care less what a players build is. if you see thudul (lvl 12 wf barb)with a lfm up, look to join. or, if you see him on, shoot me a tell. i also have a lvl 3 wf fighter, and a lvl 3 wf wizzy (though i dont like him, cuz hes a wizzy, and i have no experience with wizzys....making me n00b wizzy thinking hes useles...i made him to be a toaster mechanic, and a haste bot. that is all.)

anyway, like i said. builds dont mean squat to me. if you want to play, play. join my group (unless your on my "do not party with" list...). ive had "useless mutt builds" be more productive then pure builds. zerging pure sorcs??? non-healing lvl 12 clerics?? wt.f??

so....thudul, willl or noror will play with ya, whoever you are.

(btw..i am from ghallanda, which is why i posted this for ya....)

[Gunga]

Oh funny, I thought they were fun builds.

Delete the bard right now. You will never be too powerful, but with a wf sorc you may someday be pretty darn powerful.

[Gunga]

That is because there are a ton of WF that won't take healers friend.

Kinda like if 9 out of 10 dogs bite you on site will you go pet #11?

Healer's friend is way overrated. At end game, a full heal brings a wf up the same as any other class.

[mehlinda]

My good friend Stash who names all his toons, gimps that they are, as some form of Stash such as Stashibot, Stashy, Stashee, etc has many wf including a sorc, a barb, and a warchanter bard who happens to be a 2hf and he is a beast. He does require a dedicated healer for high end situations but is a very valuable piece of the pie in any party..

[Gunga]

My good friend Stash who names all his toons, gimps that they are, as some form of Stash such as Stashibot, Stashy, Stashee, etc has many wf including a sorc, a barb, and a warchanter bard who happens to be a 2hf and he is a beast. He does require a dedicated healer for high end situations but is a very valuable piece of the pie in any party..

He may be valuable in your party. I had a wf warchanter, got him to 15, deleted his sorry dying-all-the-time buttocks and built a top notch wf sorc. Warchanter Battle Bards have huge expectations and look great on paper...they do not stand up in melee at end game. Period. They wind up running for their lives then hanging back singing and buffing, but they don't even do that as good as a bard who is bard specc'd (high cha rather than high str and con). Reroll a WF Sorc.

[Borror0]

I had a wf warchanter, got him to 15, deleted his sorry dying-all-the-time buttocks and built a top notch wf sorc.

The build didn't suit you, good thing you stoppped playing him.


Warchanter Battle Bards have huge expectations and look great on paper...they do not stand up in melee at end game. Period. They wind up running for their lives then hanging back singing and buffing, but they don't even do that as good as a bard who is bard specc'd (high cha rather than high str and con). Reroll a WF Sorc.

Your experience, not mine.

I've payed with Stash a lot (as he's my guildy), he pwns. Warchanters are beasts, if yours was notyou either lacked the gear, build or playstyle to make it good, but that's you. A warforgedchanter is an incredibly powerful build, as long as you know how to play it right. I have yet to see Stash get squished, or running for his life. Same for the other warchanters in my guild.

IMO, Spellsinger < Warchanter, but again, that's my playstyle.

[Gunga]

The build didn't suit you, good thing you stoppped playing him.



Your experience, not mine.

I've payed with Stash a lot (as he's my guildy), he pwns. Warchanters are beasts, if yours was notyou either lacked the gear, build or playstyle to make it good, but that's you. A warforgedchanter is an incredibly powerful build, as long as you know how to play it right. I have yet to see Stash get squished, or running for his life. Same for the other warchanters in my guild.

IMO, Spellsinger < Warchanter, but again, that's my playstyle.

Lot's of talk. I'm not sure what your definition of pwns is, but bards are whoaful meleers.

[Ghoste]

Lot's of talk. I'm not sure what your definition of pwns is, but my bard was a whoaful meleer.
There you go.

[Cowdenicus]

Yeah, you're ThF so you've got left over points. My dwarf warchanter is TwF, he didn't have the free points for more than 11.:p

The irony is I did not elect to take the THF feats. Since I wanted Power Attack anyways, I figured cleave and great cleave would be the better route, although if I have feats left over, I may very well take a THF feat or two.

[Gunga]

There you go.

You're only letting us know who you are my man. Show me a bard that can go in on the pitfiend. THEY DIE. If you really think that bards are great meleers, than I got your number, Jacko.

[Ghoste]

You're only letting us know who you are my man. Show me a bard that can go in on the pitfiend. THEY DIE. If you really think that bards are great meleers, than I got your number, Jacko.
Show you one? I'll get you a screenshot this Sunday.

This is hilarious though. One guy can't make a class work for him and that's it, anyone else who tries is a moron? Get over yourself sport, you're not all that.

[Gunga]

There you go.

My fault...I saw your movie. Very cool stuff, indeed. My idea of fun isn't sneaking everywhere, playing a song and picking off one at a time hoping that the mob doesn't break. You are very good at it though. I still think it's a stretch to say that Bard's a great meleers...Barbarians, fighters, rangers and palis dont have to sneak into a fight hoping to pick off one at a time.

[Cowdenicus]

You're only letting us know who you are my man. Show me a bard that can go in on the pitfiend. THEY DIE. If you really think that bards are great meleers, than I got your number, Jacko.

I have healed a warchanter bard who meleed the pit fiend on elite and never died, without cheese.

[Ghoste]

My fault...I saw your movie. Very cool stuff, indeed. My idea of fun isn't sneaking everywhere, playing a song and picking off one at a time hoping that the mob doesn't break. You are very good at it though. I still think it's a stretch to say that Bard's a great meleers...Barbarians, fighters, rangers and palis dont have to sneak into a fight hoping to pick off one at a time.

So...what? You're saying because I made a vid highlighting one playstyle that it's the only playstyle I'm capable of? No sir, but it does sound like you're saying barb is the only melee playstyle you know. That's what they call "projecting". You are projecting your own shortsighted attitude onto others.

[Gunga]

Show you one? I'll get you a screenshot this Sunday.

This is hilarious though. One guy can't make a class work for him and that's it, anyone else who tries is a moron? Get over yourself sport, you're not all that.

I didn't call anyone a moron, you brought that up. A screen shot of a bard running in to play a song doesn't cut it for me, sport. Maybe you can sneak past the pitfiend, and craft yourself some goggles while the meleers and rangers take him out. You sound like a friend who made up a battlecaster wiz/fighter and called himself a meleer. Have fun, Jacko. It's a game.

[dragnmoon]

I am seeing alot of WF hate recently.

I have created two new WF, a Paladin and a Bard. I just have seen people refusing to heal WF, and some even refuse groups. It makes me sad, especially on my bard.

Signed,
2 Lonely Warforged on Ghallanda.

Well it fits perfect then..!! Helps the immersion into the world of Eberron!!... WF are very discrimanted against in the world of Eberron..:D;)

[Aspenor]

......

[Missing_Minds]

Your experience, not mine.

I've payed with Stash a lot (as he's my guildy), he pwns. Warchanters are beasts, if yours was notyou either lacked the gear, build or playstyle to make it good, but that's you. A warforgedchanter is an incredibly powerful build, as long as you know how to play it right. I have yet to see Stash get squished, or running for his life. Same for the other warchanters in my guild.

IMO, Spellsinger < Warchanter, but again, that's my playstyle.

For the most part I find that the bard players in general never play the class to the full potential ever. I've found only one or two bards really worth a darn in the time I've been here. The class has so much potential but in the hands of people that don't realize this, they just stink. (which is true enough in PnP as well)

Honestly, I've pugged with maybe 6 or 8 warchanters, and frankly, all of them stunk save one and he was mediocre at best. I'm pretty certain I've not ran with a stash yet though, so I'm going to have to keep an eye open for him, to watch and learn to see what my opinion ends up being.

As for the WF hate... doesn't fly with my guild, we treat them as equals.

[Gunga]

So...what? You're saying because I made a vid highlighting one playstyle that it's the only playstyle I'm capable of? No sir, but it does sound like you're saying barb is the only melee playstyle you know. That's what they call "projecting". You are projecting your own shortsighted attitude onto others.

Nah. I suggested the OP let go of the pie-in-the-sky hopes he has for his warchanter and build a wf sorc. They are better suited to do well in a normal questing party (ie not everyone in sneak mode until the bard can fascinate everything). As you can see in my sig, I have an assortment of classes that I haven't had to continuously reroll. But that sneak thing you got down pat man. Grats.

[Ghoste]

I didn't call anyone a moron, you brought that up. A screen shot of a bard running in to play a song doesn't cut it for me, sport. Maybe you can sneak past the pitfiend, and craft yourself some goggles while the meleers and rangers take him out. You sound like a friend who made up a battlecaster wiz/fighter and called himself a meleer. Have fun, Jacko. It's a game.

Exactly! That's what people are trying to tell you through all the nonsense about deleting characters that don't measure up to your glorious standards. And again with you projecting your own inability to use various playstyles onto me! If you think you're making a point with that...well you are. About your own inability to use different playstyles.

[Aspenor]

Lot's of talk. I'm not sure what your definition of pwns is, but bards are whoaful meleers.

If by "woeful" you mean a TWF human bard dual wielding khopesh's that can out DPS 98% of barbarians and 100% of fighters and paladins then, yes....bards are quite woeful at fighting when built properly.

[dragnmoon]

Edited out because Asp did

Asp what Kind of build you got?..... Though I can do Mega Dmg against the Pit Fiend and not get aggro...*got to love subtle BS* His wild swings do not allow me to stay in long because even when he is not directly targeting me I get hit hard!

[Ghoste]

Nah. I suggested the OP let go of the pie-in-the-sky hopes he has for his warchanter and build a wf sorc. They are better suited to do well in a normal questing party (ie not everyone in sneak mode until the bard can fascinate everything). As you can see in my sig, I have an assortment of classes that I haven't had to continuously reroll. But that sneak thing you got down pat man. Grats.
You also suggested I'm incapable of any other playstyle. Don't go jumping around pretending I'm talking about a different post. You know as well as I do what you said and where you said it. Don't hide from your own words.

[Aspenor]

Asp what Kind of build you got?..... Though I can do Mega Dmg against the Pit Fiend and not get aggro...*got to love subtle BS* His wild swings do not allow me to stay in long because even when he is not directly targeting me I get hit hard!

You have to be willing to step out for a second and heal yourself, and not stand in there like the low-INT, chubby ones. My drow rogue has 200 hit points and does just fine.

Oh yeah, stand behind him. Like literally behind him. You'd be amazed how much it helps.

[Missing_Minds]

If by "woeful" you mean a TWF human bard dual wielding khopesh's that can out DPS 98% of barbarians and 100% of fighters and paladins then, yes....bards are quite woeful at fighting when built properly.

sounds tasty.. I assume higher physical stats and lesser mental ones?

[AkromaAoW]

Most times, I care very little what members a party has. As for warforged, I always carry a repair critical wand, just in case ;).

[dragnmoon]

You have to be willing to step out for a second and heal yourself, and not stand in there like the low-INT, chubby ones. My drow rogue has 200 hit points and does just fine.

Oh yeah, stand behind him. Like literally behind him. You'd be amazed how much it helps.


yeah I do that...... And That is what I have been doing....

And no matter how many times I tell the Cleric..Don't heal me and waste your resources.. you will be amazed how many times they still do and yell at me for wasting their resources!!!..ARGH!!!.

I have the same HPs..

[Aspenor]

sounds tasty.. I assume higher physical stats and lesser mental ones?

Yes, essentially low-ish charisma (only there for the SP for self-buffing with displacement, rage and hast), high con, high strength. With bard buffs and spell buffs, he will easily outstrip almost ever melee class in the game (assuming of course the bard can buff himself, and the others cannot, I'm talking self-buffed DPS).

[Gunga]

If by "woeful" you mean a TWF human bard dual wielding khopesh's that can out DPS 98% of barbarians and 100% of fighters and paladins then, yes....bards are quite woeful at fighting when built properly.

Don't make me squelch you again...I just took you off. I didn't say my bard couldn't dps. I said he couldn't melee...more than just dps. Junk saves, ac and hp. There are easier ways to build a great meleer than to go bard...although if you're looking for a challenge there it is. You think you're even gonna come close to my Human TWF Barbarian w/khopeshes? You're entitled to your opinion.

[Aspenor]

yeah I do that...... And That is what I have been doing....

And no matter how many times I tell the Cleric..Don't heal me and waste your resources.. you will be amazed how many times they still do and yell at me for wasting their resources!!!..ARGH!!!.

I have the same HPs..

Then probably you get torn up by the blade swarms, I made sure to get out early to avoid the blade swarms and devote those times to helping keep the beefy dwarves standing.

[Gunga]

You also suggested I'm incapable of any other playstyle. Don't go jumping around pretending I'm talking about a different post. You know as well as I do what you said and where you said it. Don't hide from your own words.

You suggested playstyle, not me. You mentioned morons, not me. You think bards are great meleers, not me. Have fun, Bud.

[Aspenor]

Don't make me squelch you again...I just took you off. I didn't say my bard couldn't dps. I said he couldn't melee...more than just dps. Junk saves, ac and hp. There are easier ways to build a great meleer than to go bard...although if you're looking for a challenge there it is. You think you're even gonna come close to my Human TWF Barbarian w/khopeshes? You're entitled to your opinion.

Ooooo I'm shakin in my boots....

Easy? Maybe. Easy builds are for the weak of heart and the weak of imagination.

[Ghoste]

So what...suddenly barbs DO have great AC? I'll take a perma displaced, perma stone skinned, perma hasted, self healing bard over a barb any day. Barbs aren't complete without a cleric to babysit them. Bards can fill the same role without the cleric.

[dragnmoon]

Then probably you get torn up by the blade swarms, I made sure to get out early to avoid the blade swarms and devote those times to helping keep the beefy dwarves standing.

No that is not a problem... I get out before that...

What I am saying.. When I do go in... I tell all the clerics not to heal me..I can handle myself... And there is always one that still does and then yells at me for using up their resources...

[Gunga]

Ooooo I'm shakin in my boots....

Easy? Maybe. Easy builds are for the weak of heart and the weak of imagination.

Ok. You're squelched again. There's no need to insult anyone here, we're just discussing a topic that you're very worked up over. I'll give you another chance in a couple weeks.

[Ghoste]

You suggested playstyle, not me. You mentioned morons, not me. You think bards are great meleers, not me. Have fun, Bud.
Champ, go back to the post YOU MADE about my vid and the inferences you made from that. What a short memory you have...

I know I used the actual word "morons" first. Read that post again, then read your previous ones. I was referring to your condescending approach you have held for those who can't see as clearly as you what builds are worth keeping and which ones aren't. My point was that the people you are talking to aren't morons and don't need you to tell them which builds they're allowed to keep, and which ones they need to delete. By telling them that kind of garbage, one might getthe impression you think they're too much of a moron to make those decisions for themselves.

Get it now?

[Aspenor]

Since I don't really believe that I'm squelched, I'll take this time to point out I'm not worked up at all. I just find it amusing that people think that just because they can't get something to work doesn't mean another person can.

I melee the pit fiend with an 9sorc/4pali/2rog.

[Borror0]

There are easier ways to build a great meleer than to go bard...although if you're looking for a challenge there it is.

Really? Don't see why...

[Ghoste]

My fault...I saw your movie. Very cool stuff, indeed. My idea of fun isn't sneaking everywhere, playing a song and picking off one at a time hoping that the mob doesn't break. You are very good at it though. I still think it's a stretch to say that Bard's a great meleers...Barbarians, fighters, rangers and palis dont have to sneak into a fight hoping to pick off one at a time.
Right here is what I was referring to.

Somehow, you got the impression that because I CAN play a sneaky character, that I think the only way to play a melee is to be sneaky. Like I said, that is you projecting your own shortsightedness onto me.

And again, please don't hide from your own words. You know what you said, don't pretend it wasn't you.

[Gunga]

Champ, go back to the post YOU MADE about my vid and the inferences you made from that. What a short memory you have...

I know I used the actual word "morons" first. Read that post again, then read your previous ones. I was referring to your condescending approach you have held for those who can't see as clearly as you what builds are worth keeping and which ones aren't. My point was that the people you are talking to aren't morons and don't need you to tell them which builds they're allowed to keep, and which ones they need to delete. By telling them that kind of garbage, one might getthe impression you think they're too much of a moron to make those decisions for themselves.

Get it now?

Nah. You said all that, Bucky. I told a guy I've run with many many many times to save himself the time with the bard and roll a wf sorc instead. He'll likely take my post with a grain of salt, and do whatever he feels like doing. He's a big boy, understands the game, and feels like experimenting. Which making a battlebard is...experimenting. I kinda like when you call me champ.

[Ghoste]

Since I don't really believe that I'm squelched, I'll take this time to point out I'm not worked up at all. I just find it amusing that people think that just because they can't get something to work doesn't mean another person can.

I melee the pit fiend with an 8sorc/4pali/2rog.
No you don't. After all, Gunga couldn't do it, so how could Asp possibly pull it off?

[Gunga]

Right here is what I was referring to.

Somehow, you got the impression that because I CAN play a sneaky character, that I think the only way to play a melee is to be sneaky. Like I said, that is you projecting your own shortsightedness onto me.

And again, please don't hide from your own words. You know what you said, don't pretend it wasn't you.

Nah. I just said you were good at it, Bucky. Don't know if you're good at anything else...I haven't seen those movies.

[Laith]

please, we all just need to stop arguing with Gunga about builds.

A few weeks ago, i got involved when he was arguing that clerics couldn't melee. Not he's moved on to bards.
He's clearly playing a different game than most of us are... let him enjoy that one while we're enjoying this one.

[Ghoste]

Nah. You said all that, Bucky. I told I guy I've run with many many many times to save himself the time with the bard and roll a wf sorc instead. He'll likely take my post with a grain of salt, and do whatever he feels like doing. He's a big boy, understands the game, and feels like experimenting. Which making a battlebard is...experimenting. I kinda like when you call me champ.
I'll say it again, chief. He's not a moron. He knows what's working for him. He'll delete his character if he choses to.

That build didn't work for you. The fact you equate that with can't work for anyone else is a real joke.

[Gunga]

No you don't. After all, Gunga couldn't do it, so how could Asp possibly pull it off?

Thanks for posting this, ghoste, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to read what asp said. I love that build man...I've never seen such a thing. Very, very creative.

[Ghoste]

Nah. I just said you were good at it, Bucky. Don't know if you're good at anything else...I haven't seen those movies.

Like I said, don't hide from your own words. If you're going to say something, own up to what you said.
Barbarians, fighters, rangers and palis dont have to sneak into a fight hoping to pick off one at a time.I never said they do. That is the line where you were inferring that would be my way of playing a melee. That was shortsighted.

As far as other play styles I have played: I have played enough melees to know that a battle bard can work. If you couldn't get it to work, all that says is YOU couldn't get it to work. Too bad for poor little you.

[Aspenor]

please, we all just need to stop arguing with Gunga about builds.

A few weeks ago, i got involved when he was arguing that clerics couldn't melee. Not he's moved on to bards.
He's clearly playing a different game than most of us are... let him enjoy that one while we're enjoying this one.

LOL

I know battle cleris and melee-arcane casters that are superior melee than 97% of barbarians, and barbarians are the "easiest" melee class to build (max str, max con, everything else is gravy).

[Borror0]

He's a big boy, understands the game, and feels like experimenting. Which making a battlebard is...experimenting.

Wrong, making a battle bard is making the most uber archetype in the whole game.

With the right gear and build:

Over 400 HP
TwF DPS in par with other melee builds (Plus DPS added by songs to the other melees.)
High UMD
PermaDisplacement
PermaStoneskin
Capable of using Fire Shield scrolls versus the Pit Fiend.
DR song
Decent saves

What do you want more?

[Gunga]

please, we all just need to stop arguing with Gunga about builds.

A few weeks ago, i got involved when he was arguing that clerics couldn't melee. Not he's moved on to bards.
He's clearly playing a different game than most of us are... let him enjoy that one while we're enjoying this one.

Nah. I just said that a cleric was meant to heal. Everything else is secondary. You brought up the other stuff...obviuosly you should give up arguing anything until you can get your facts together. You're starting to sound like Ghoste.

[Gunga]

Wrong, making a battle bard is making the most uber archetype in the whole game.

With the right gear and build:

Over 400 HP
TwF DPS in par with other melee builds (Plus DPS added by songs to the other melees.)
High UMD
PermaDisplacement
PermaStoneskin
Capable of using Fire Shield scrolls versus the Pit Fiend.
DR song
Decent saves

What do you want more?

Looks like a dwarven build to me. I think the op and I were talking about wf...

[Laith]

Nah. I just said that a cleric was meant to heal. yep, that's why they have a 3/4 BaB, heavy armor, and a ****-ton of spells that do things aside from mending wounds (a few of which are self-only melee buffs).

saying a cleric is meant to heal is like saying a fighter is meant to wear a tower shield.

oops... got pulled in for a second. my mistake.
aussie accent: clever-girl.

[Gunga]

Like I said, don't hide from your own words. If you're going to say something, own up to what you said. I never said they do. That is the line where you were inferring that would be my way of playing a melee. That was shortsighted.

As far as other play styles I have played: I have played enough melees to know that a battle bard can work. If you couldn't get it to work, all that says is YOU couldn't get it to work. Too bad for poor little you.

I'm not hiding from the words you say I said, even though I didn't say them. You assumed, and you get what you deserve. In your own sig, you say that you keep deleting toons and rerolling them. In my sig, I have a bunch of capped toons. I know what works, I have the experience to know bards play four riffs really well.

[Ghoste]

Nah. I just said that a cleric was meant to heal. Everything else is secondary. You brought up the other stuff...obviuosly you should give up arguing anything until you can get your facts together. You're starting to sound like Ghoste.That coming from a guy who can't even keep straight what he's said in THIS thread? That's rich...

[Borror0]

What do you want more?

Fascinate.:D

[Gunga]

yep, that's why they have a 3/4 BaB, heavy armor, and a ****-ton of spells that do things aside from mending wounds (a few of which are self-only melee buffs).

saying a cleric is meant to heal is like saying a fighter is meant to wear a towershield. Afterall, they ARE in a rare set of classes to get the Tower Shield proficiency for free, right?

oops... got pulled in for a second. my mistake.
aussie accent: clever-girl.

Nice. There you go again.

[Borror0]

Looks like a dwarven build to me. I think the op and I were talking about wf...

HP? The WF can reach it.
Saves? The WF can reach it... I see no issue here.

[Gunga]

HP? The WF can reach it.
Saves? The WF can reach it... I see no issue here.

Maybe, Borr. I haven't done the math on it again since I deleted that guy. WF don't have the toughness line of enhancements though, so how do you think they could be the same?

[Ghoste]

Maybe, Borr. I haven't done the math on it again since I deleted that guy. WF don't have the toughness line of enhancements though, so how do you think they could be the same?
He never made the comparison between dwarf and wf, you did. He was never arguing they were the same. You're the one who started arguing they weren't...so what?

[Borror0]

WF for a 14b/2f warchanter:

104 Base
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
30 Greater False Life
23 Minos Legend
45 (Shroud)
18 Toughness
144 Consitution
394 HP

Not 400, but not so far. Anything over 350 HP is very respectable to me when you've got Stoneskin and Displacement always on (and you can Heal/Recontruct yourself).

[Aspenor]

Not 400, but not so far. Anything around 250 hit points is very acceptable to me when you've got Stoneskin and Displacement always on and can cast full heals/reconstructs on yourself..

fixed? maybe?

[Borror0]

fixed? maybe?

Yeah, the full heals and reconstructs are what I meant, as for 250... well I have not the experience of that low HP to speak.

[Cowdenicus]

As i recall my wf bard started with a 16 con

[dragnmoon]

As i recall my wf bard started with a 16 con

I am still trying to get pass the idea that you made something other then a cleric....:eek:

:D:p;)

[Aspenor]

Yeah, the full heals and reconstructs are what I meant, as for 250... well I have not the experience of that low HP to speak.

it's not *optimal* but it is definitely very feasible and not all that much of a strain. My rogue has 206 and melees the pit fiend just fine, she just tumbles out and casts a full heal on herself and tumbles back in until the blades are too close.

[Borror0]

As i recall my wf bard started with a 16 con

16 base + 2 Rage + 2 Enhancement +6 Item + 2 Tome = 28

So yeah, 144 Con HP;)

[Gunga]

WF for a 14b/2f warchanter:

104 Base
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
30 Greater False Life
23 Minos Legend
45 (Shroud)
18 Toughness
144 Consitution
394 HP

Not 400, but not so far. Anything over 350 HP is very respectable to me when you've got Stoneskin and Displacement always on (and you can Heal/Recontruct yourself).

Gotcha...those hps look great. Some of those numbers look off to me...maybe asp fixed them. I didn't find myself having endless mana with a low cha, and I didn't have that many hps. Another problem I ran into was I couldnt heal myself very well...If i failed a reconstruct scroll I was outta luck.

[Cowdenicus]

Gotcha...those hps look great. Some of those numbers look off to me...maybe asp fixed them. I didn't find myself having endless mana with a low cha, and I didn't have that many hps. Another problem I ran into was I couldnt heal myself very well...If i failed a reconstruct scroll I was outta luck.

True but one could make the neg pos pos/neg sp goggles. On getting hit you have a chance to regen sp, +6 wis, +300 sp, and +5 umd.

[Borror0]

I didn't find myself having endless mana with a low cha

Really?

IVe never ran out of SP, ever. I keep Displacing myself all the time without any issue.

[Gunga]

Really?

IVe never ran out of SP, ever. I keep Displacing myself all the time without any issue.

Nice. I deleted him before Warchanters were sought after in the new raid...never even got to the greensteel items with him. I forget what my cha was, but it was really low because I dumped stat pts into str and con with a splash into dex (total waste). I had a 30 str and could do lots of damage, but I also took way too much damage. This is really what kept me from putting more time into him.

[Gunga]

True but one could make the neg pos pos/neg sp goggles. On getting hit you have a chance to regen sp, +6 wis, +300 sp, and +5 umd.

Yep, true. Sounds like borr has a nice build...he may have some pointers for you. All I can say is it's not so obvious a build...it takes some careful planning to make it viable at high level. GL withit though if you decide to level him, man.

[Delt]

LoL @ portions of this thread...

"I'm not your friend, buddy!"

"I'm not your buddy, guy!"

"I'm not your guy, friend!"


Nice. I deleted him before Warchanters were sought after in the new raid...never even got to the greensteel items with him. I forget what my cha was, but it was really low because I dumped stat pts into str and con with a splash into dex (total waste). I had a 30 str and could do lots of damage, but I also took way too much damage. This is really what kept me from putting more time into him.

I did the same thing (gimply threw some extra points into DEX to maximize Mithril Body, both of which were **** poor ideas. Feat was swapped out, dex was cried over...but at least I have the option of TWF later when I snag a +3 dex tome)..but I never found I took much damage perma-displaced. Granted, things that wouldn't hit my other melee's except on a 1 hit my WF bard more often (which annoyed me), but in elite end game content it all evens out. I'm also a tad surprised you couldn't hit 40 UMD easily for 100% reconstruct...GH and a few easily obtainable items (optional feat if you have bad luck with raid loot), and a WF bard with 19 ranks can hit 40 even when dumping CHA.

I think you underestimate the viability of WC melee. It can be done and it needs to be played a little smarter than your average barb/fighter (that relies on outside healing). I've said before that the main failing of most battlebard attempts is low HP - I'd bet that was your main issue. My bard can hit 450+/550+ raged (and if I didn't go WF for flavor and went Dwarf instead, it would be sick), but people tell me it's cheating because I have a heavy barbarian splash...fair enough, but it's still HP that defines the ability to frontline melee/tank in DDO's current end game.

For the record, I agree with you that battlebards simply aren't optimal party players. They'll never reach the DPS output of a well built TWF barbarian with equal buffs. They'll never have equal durability and HP of that barbarian either. But remember, it takes 3 classes to make that barbarian excel...48 levels of benefit vs 16. It's not a fair comparison. Even if that battlebard is ~80% effectiveness in all 3 roles (DPS, tank, buffer/healer), you have to appreciate that kinda of versatility and what it adds to a party.

[Hvymetal]

Now before we got talking about Warchanters and then the thread got really interesting I believe the subject war Warforged hate Cow has recently been running into?

My theory is returing players. There seems to be many many returning players lately & those sort of attitudes vrs. Warforged were rampant back then. I have been playing Warforged off and on since headstart & times were very tough and it's taken a lot of hard work and dedicated Warforged players to turn some of that around.

Unfortunatly I get the feeling that some of the returning players haven't caught on yet.

[alchilito]

WF rule Cowdenicus

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff95/Alchilito/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00113.jpg

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff95/Alchilito/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00094.jpg

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff95/Alchilito/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00085.jpg

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff95/Alchilito/?action=view&current=ScreenShot00084.jpg

:)