Low level toons piggybacking in raids.

[Quanefel]

I was recently in a pug raid this past week and experienced something I never really saw before. We are all inside buffing and the leader announces that a friend of his who was in group was only 2-4th level, that he would be joining us in the raid. It caught everyone by surprise and most were asking polite questions like how is he flagged, etc. I was going to ask questions but I thought, whats the use. We left it at that and went in. The low level toon died within minutes and hung out in the dead room the whole quest. Rezzed once raid was done, collected his loot and left. Not sure he got a raid item but thats not the point. My point is this, why is anyone doing this in a pug group in the first place? Sure, if you are with all guild mates or all friends I can see that. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with a pug raid group leader springing it on us at the last minute, when we are already buffing and itching to get the raid started. Why do the rest of the raid party have to pick up his slack when he contributed nothing to the raid at all. Why do we have to do all the work just so he can walk up and collect raid loot?

Now, I am sure some will say that there are plenty of times level appropriate toons do not pull their weight in a raid too. That is true but it is rare. Each time I have been in a raid, everyone wants to do their part. Everyone wants to help out the best they can for any of a number of reasons. To prove their skills to other players, because they are overjoyed to be apart of something big like a raid, etc. We each have our own reasons but we all want to help the best we can. Yet if you go into a raid knowing full well you will not contribute any help at all AND fully expect everyone else to do your work for you for your raid loot. Sorry folks, that does not feel right at all.

Understand though like I wrote above, if everyone in the raid are friends or guild mates not many would care at all. If you want to pull the weight of your friend's or guild mates, go for it. But expecting complete strangers to look the other way and to have them pick up the slack for what is in essence piggybacking on the part of this low level toon, is simply wrong. How can anyone think this is ok to do?

Now I won't complain or be rude to anyone if I was to be in this situation again. For the simple fact I will just politely bow out of the raid and wish them all luck. I will not preach to them how wrong it is nor talk trash of the ones pulling this on pug raids. If you want to be a part of it or see nothing wrong with it, good for you. As for me, I will find something else to do. Not a problem with me.

What do others feel about this?

[Wildseed]

Sounds like the leader was a selfish guy. Friend him put a (selfish) next to his name, don't join his raid again. I understand your frustration and you're right IMHO, at the very least he should have mentioned it from the beginning of the PUG to make sure everyone was okay with the 12th member not being able to contribute.

[Frodo_Lives]

I was in a Reaver raid where there was a lvl 9 paladin. He said that he was flagged and I could see how you could be flagged by having relics handed down to you and running the 4 quests only on normal. But still I thought it was a huge waste. He did not contribute anything, and like in the OP party he died pretty quickly.

What kind of ticked me off is that the Madstone Sheild dropped and instead of being used by the person who pulled it or being put up for a roll it was handed off to the level 9 guy! He wasn't in the same guild as the person who pulled it, I have a suspicion that he sent a tell and bought the sheild. I mean he couldn't even use it for another four levels.

Now I am a big believer that if something drops for you it's yours. You can trade it, keep it, put it up for a roll. Whatever, but this instance it kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm not even sure why other than the fact that it seemed slimey for some reason.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Yeah, nah. I wouldnt have stayed in that group. No way.

Like you said, keep that stuff between friends/guildies...dont bring it to PuG's.

[Citymorg]

/signed

IHMO, this is trying to get a +3 tome for a specific build and is exploiting the game. There is no raid that was designed for level 2-4 players, even if they are flagged. Therefore, it should be reported as such.

/report for gameplay violations FTW

[Beherit_Baphomar]

/signed

IHMO, this is trying to get a +3 tome for a specific build and is exploiting the game. There is no raid that was designed for level 2-4 players, even if they are flagged. Therefore, it should be reported as such.

/report for gameplay violations FTW

Shouldnt even be able to log into the prereqs never mind the raid.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I suppose it's the ultimate in twinking. Having bound raid items waiting for you when you level up. :( That garbage doesn't fly with me. Everyone in the group could have said item already and it STILL shouldn't go to the lowbie.

[bringjoy]

Completely agree that this should NOT happen! Never saw this last year but this year i've seen it on rare occasions, although nothing as flagrant as the OPs situation, wow...talk about a loser looking for easy loot on a PUGs shoulders:(

[Oran_Lathor]

I don't know, I don't see the big deal to be honest. Maybe this would be a valid complaint in shroud run on hard or elite or something, but for the Reaver? Come on, the quest can be done just as easily with 2 people as 12. If you wanna complain about a lowbie tagging along and not 'contributing' then you'd better complain about every non-cleric, non-caster in just about every group you ever take in there.

[Xaearth]

I was recently in a pug raid this past week and experienced something I never really saw before. We are all inside buffing and the leader announces that a friend of his who was in group was only 2-4th level, that he would be joining us in the raid. It caught everyone by surprise and most were asking polite questions like how is he flagged, etc.
...
I have a problem with a pug raid group leader springing it on us at the last minute, when we are already buffing and itching to get the raid started. Why do the rest of the raid party have to pick up his slack when he contributed nothing to the raid at all. Why do we have to do all the work just so he can walk up and collect raid loot?


Well, based on what you're saying here... Seems to me your group was about to start Reaver low-manned, which, while fairly common, brings up a very big point you're missing here:
Perhaps he was just trying to fill the hole?

It's been said many times that the difficulty level of the Reaver does not require a full party to complete. This key fact lessens the "pulling your own weight" argument. In other raids, I'd see a problem with it, but in a raid so often run pugging out the group just to fill up the holes, it doesn't seem as big of a deal. Now, if the leader purposely turned down someone who could offer more to the success of the raid, that's a problem and he/she should have told the group beforehand. If, however, the lfm sat up there till just before everyone was about to trigger the Reaver, that's a slightly different story with a bit of mitigating circumstance methinks.

I suppose if as some other posters have said the lowbie tried to trade/roll for someone else's loot, it might not seem too fair, but if they are just looking to get a few more completions under their belt... *shrug*

[Rickpa]

Well, based on what you're saying here... Seems to me your group was about to start Reaver low-manned, which, while fairly common, brings up a very big point you're missing here:
Perhaps he was just trying to fill the hole?


What hole? Is there some specific benefit having someone's ghost in the Reaver's waiting room until the quest is completed?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

eh, I've seen people do it (although not quite THAT low level). If there is a spot open and we are about to start while short manned I don't have any problem with it. I have for example had friends drag their mules through house K quests when we would have otherwise shortmanned to get additional bank slots.

[Elleron]

Something I like or dislike depending on my level is:

To get into the orchard you have to level 10 -can't even get in the door - so yes you could click on the raid door which is not in the orchard but you can't flag for it. The Vale is for level 12 - so those raids can't be run by low levels. So it looks like the devs have taken care of this for the new areas.

I reserve the right to be wrong about everything. It's consistency that matters.

[Krazed]

This is entirely a problem brought up by the new loot mechanic that Turbine implemented. Let's face it, you don't need 12 people to beat the Dragon/Reaver/Titan/DQ raid. In most cases you need less than 6. So what do you do for those other 6 spots. Well you could invite 6 other PUGs to the raid, which was the point of the loot change as far as I can tell, to promote PUGs in otherwise short-manned raids that were still capable of beating it. However, if you have access to the resources, why not dual-box it with another one of your toons or bring along lowbie guildies. It gives you a better chance at raid loot and you lose nothing in terms of your chances to beat the raid.

I don't have a problem with people bringing in lower toons or friends into raids that may not be able to contribute much as long as there are sufficient resources to complete the raid before inviting them. I've dual-boxed Dragon/Reaver/Titan raids myself purely to give my guild an additional body in hopes of getting more raid loot. To me this is nothing more than taking advantage of the change in the loot system that Turbine implemented, and I see nothing wrong with it. If you have a problem with a raid leader or guild taking advantage of the loot system in this way, then you should remove yourself from the raid. If you participate in the raid than you are doing nothing more than helping them in their endeavor, and are just as culpable in terms of blame for doing so.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Something I like or dislike depending on my level is:

To get into the orchard you have to level 10 -can't even get in the door - so yes you could click on the raid door which is not in the orchard but you can't flag for it. The Vale is for level 12 - so those raids can't be run by low levels. So it looks like the devs have taken care of this for the new areas.

I reserve the right to be wrong about everything. It's consistency that matters.

I believe if yer all level 4 characters trying to get into the orchard then no, you wont be able to. But if you are level 4 in
a group of level 16's you can get in.

[Zenako]

Something I like or dislike depending on my level is:

To get into the orchard you have to level 10 -can't even get in the door - so yes you could click on the raid door which is not in the orchard but you can't flag for it. The Vale is for level 12 - so those raids can't be run by low levels. So it looks like the devs have taken care of this for the new areas.

I reserve the right to be wrong about everything. It's consistency that matters.

I believe if someone else in the group can open it, then you can enter, unless things have changed. You would not be able to open on your own if you are not high enough level.

It also begs the question, to get into the Reaver Raid, you have to have run all the prereqs, Madstone, Crucible and PotP and get blooded on the Tor....that is a lot of hand holding and I am not sure what the point would be. Unless it was to give another crack at certain raid loot to be handed over to others in the quest, but that seems like a lot of work on a lowbie for that. Just level someone up.

[Angelus_dead]

I have a problem with a pug raid group leader springing it on us at the last minute, when we are already buffing and itching to get the raid started. Why do the rest of the raid party have to pick up his slack when he contributed nothing to the raid at all. Why do we have to do all the work just so he can walk up and collect raid loot?
You're not talking about "a raid".

You're talking about Reaver's Fate.

Newsflash: Reaver's Fate is a quest where all but 2-4 of the 12 players just walk up and collect the loot. It takes just about 3 guys to win. Maybe the rest of the guys try to help, or maybe they don't- it really doesn't matter. If 9/12ths of the raid party spontaneously died as soon as they zoned in, the quest would still be won just as easily as ever, so long as the right 3 player characters are left to complete it.

A level 2 wizard in there is only a little more useless than a level 16 fighter: neither has an important function in completing the quest.

[Angelus_dead]

This is entirely a problem brought up by the new loot mechanic that Turbine implemented. Let's face it, you don't need 12 people to beat the Dragon/Reaver/Titan/DQ raid. In most cases you need less than 6. So what do you do for those other 6 spots. Well you could invite 6 other PUGs to the raid, which was the point of the loot change as far as I can tell, to promote PUGs in otherwise short-manned raids that were still capable of beating it. However, if you have access to the resources, why not dual-box it with another one of your toons or bring along lowbie guildies.
That's mostly true.

You see, what happened is Turbine's initial raid loot drops were 2 per raid group, regardless of if you had 1 or 12 players. They had an idea that this would come out to 1 per 6 players, because raid groups would be full 12, or close to it.

However, they were completely wrong. The game design of the raid encounters was such that there was never a need to bring more than 6 players. Usually, there was no need for more than 3.
Dragon: 3 pillars, 3 guys
Titan: 1 chopper + 1 button + 1 puller = 3 guys
Laliat: 1 shooter + 1 tank + 1 healer = 3 guys
Reaver: 1 tank + 1 nuker + 1 healer = 3 guys
You could do some of those raids with less, or even solo, but with 3-4 people is the point where you felt there was no player working hard and trying to divide his time between doing two jobs at once. One person, one task. Straightforward and simple.

Normally, having 12 players in an instance that only had jobs for 3 players would be a big problem. It would make the raid fairly boring for most of the players. And in fact, that is exactly what happened, as was especially visible in the VON Dragon raid. It was absolutely normal for 10/12 of the players to stand around and go AFK waiting at the door for the first 10-15 minutes of the raid, while 2 players worked on clearing the pillars. Then a 3rd player would wake up and those guys break the pillars, at which point the others can help fight for the last 2 minutes (although they're not needed, because any pair of cleric + tank can do it themselves).

However, the accidental saving grace was that because there were exactly 2 loot drops per raid, there was no real incentive to bring anywhere close to 12 players to the raid. Once players learned what was going on, they'd only bring 12 for social reasons- to have them killing time in a chat room. Raids generally were run with 3-6, which was a good result, even if unintentional, because it meant that a much lower proportion of the raid group was left standing around with nothing to do.

But it seems Turbine didn't recognize the benefits of that interaction. So when a change to their chest code allowed them to drop raid loots at 1/6th per player instead of 2/group, they switched it over. This caused a loot incentive to pack the raid up to 12 players, simply to output the maximum amount of loot. The additional players weren't recruited to help win the raid- they were brought to help take from the chest. It's like you say: people with dual-boxes and lootbot mules would have no reason to invite PUG members to the raid at all. The PUGs are only brought to multiply chest drops.

[RichD]

It does seem a little on the ridiculous end of things. Of course, if he pulled raid loot not useable by his class and offered it to the rest of the party then he would be providing a benefit for having been dragged along.

[Krazed]

It does seem a little on the ridiculous end of things. Of course, if he pulled raid loot not useable by his class and offered it to the rest of the party then he would be providing a benefit for having been dragged along.

If he pulled raid loot that wasn't usable to him or the people who invited him to the raid, you mean. After all, you're not going to invite a level 4 to a reaver raid and then not expect him to give you the +3 int tome he pulls when you're a wizard. This might anger alot of people in the raid, but unless you're very naive, you knew that was the deal going in. Again, however, you only have yourself to blame. Drop the raid if you don't like the situation, whether it be a lowbie running it or someone dual-boxing it, but don't go complaining that they didn't let the raid roll on the +3 tome when you knew that would be the situation ahead of time.

[GlassCannon]

We used to do crazy things like this before the Powerlevel system(which is harming the community now that the ranges are so large). The lowbie would typically gain a full level or two from it, but I don't see a problem as long as the raid completes without a hitch.

Your(indirect connotation) arguments seem to be "The little guy did not help ME. I think this is wrong."

Entirely egocentric, and somewhat psychotic.


As for a lowbie killing time in a chatroom due to the requirements of said raid completion due to a well planned and prepared strategy is no different than a capped player doing the same. Good point.

Running with a full raid due to the new drop tables, regardless of the character's level/class/etc is preferable to running with a short raid party(10 or so, or less) and having less of a chance at the wizard getting the 3 INT tome he has been after for over 9 months.

[krud]

Pretty lame imo, but really it's not much different than inviting any other useless guildie/friend along just to boost loot drops, regardless of level. Passing loot to only a friend/guildie could be done just as easily with any capped toon. Actually, I think it was awfully nice of him to let you know, so you could decide for yourself whether to stay or not. He could have easily said nothing and you'd never know, or possibly only find out after zoning in.

However, to those arguing that he was filling up a vacant spot in an otherwise shortmanned reaver, you can't be serious. How many open Reaver lfms go unfilled for any length of time? Open up the lfm to all classes and you are pretty much guaranteed to get a hit in only a few minutes. You can even start the raid and have the latecomer play with the ele's behind the barrier as part of the latecomer rite of passage.

[Quanefel]

We used to do crazy things like this before the Powerlevel system(which is harming the community now that the ranges are so large). The lowbie would typically gain a full level or two from it, but I don't see a problem as long as the raid completes without a hitch.

Your(indirect connotation) arguments seem to be "The little guy did not help ME. I think this is wrong."

Entirely egocentric, and somewhat psychotic.


As for a lowbie killing time in a chatroom due to the requirements of said raid completion due to a well planned and prepared strategy is no different than a capped player doing the same. Good point.

Running with a full raid due to the new drop tables, regardless of the character's level/class/etc is preferable to running with a short raid party(10 or so, or less) and having less of a chance at the wizard getting the 3 INT tome he has been after for over 9 months.


If you fully believe what you are writing here there would be no need to make baseless personal attacks against me. I am sure you doing this anomously on your part is for a reason.

[darkrhavyn]

Only think I thought of was this senerio: what if the lowbie was the leaders child,nephew, babysitting job etc, and he brought them along just to show the little one what the raid was like --I know my step kids arent content to just watch me play DDO - they want to play, but they also dont really know how to play well.....granted, Ill admit with reaver thats a bit far fetched given the relic requirements, but I can see letting a baby toon tag along thru the VONs pretty easily - Im mean, we all run the silly quests with half grops and in about 2 hours tops to finish all the first 4.

But yeah in general I agree, that sort of thing should be kept in a guild or friends only run.

[Bladededge123]

I could see this working just fine in a few conditions.

First, if its a guild run. This is the most likely scenario when the low characters who get brought are newer players who don't have high enough characters to be of much use in the raid, but would either like to learn the raid (I'd love to go into 'any' of the raids outside of TS (the only one I've done) without having the big fear that my not knowing them will cost the group the success of said raid, and this seems like a fairly good way to learn the raid with the party expecting to need to compensate for my newbieness.

It seems alright as well if the person starting the pug is open with what they plan on doing. Honesty up front seems important too me. If you really can beat the reaver for example with all of 3 poeple then the other 9 slots might as well be filled up. So long as expecations on division of raid loot if it comes up or ect are set ahead of time (see, honesty again) I don't see a big problem.

As for the raid-loot system. I personally love the change. As a casual player my chances of 'ever' getting raid loot were next to nothing. I certainly remember being highly turned off when the dragon raid was added, the idea of having to run that series of quests 4-6 times before really getting an expecation of a chance at any of the cool new items was extremely daunting given it would take me from when it was released too the release of the next module too have enough time to do so.

I've gotten the impression the loot for some of the old raids I've never done are useless to more power-gamer style players, yet I am sure there are a number of great items in there that I would find really cool to get my hands on. If there really is such a complaint with the new system, why not go half-way. The newest raids should be the old way, while some of the older ones should be the way they all are now, as such raids become more casual gamer friendly it makes sense for the raid-loot system to reflect that.

[boldarblood]

eh doesnt bother me at all. To each his own. As long as raid finished I could care less who is in it, including lowbies. As most of the raids do not need more than 3-6 people.

[Nevthial]

I've tagged along on Tempest runs before with a level 4-6 character in the distant past. Velah was the only other raid at the time. Following folks through Tempest on a lowbee is an entirely different thing. I don't know if I would have dropped group in your scenario, but I would have been suspicious of what was going on.


I don't know Q. I don't know. I'm like you though, skeptical of why they were there.

**Edit** It has been stated they were there for comic relief. That's O.K. , as long as they were burned/greased/beaten to death, ect. for the amusement of others. :)

[Qzipoun]

Was there a rogue in the party? Was the rogue any more useful than the level 4?

I say that because other than casters, clerics and 1 tank, no one in that party was contributing in a significant way, just like the level 4.

[The10man]

I thought a very low level toon would skew the loot table in quests/raids is that not true?, or not in this case because...? Sounds like someone two boxing or two pcing to have twice the chance at raid loot wonder what woulda happened if he was a fighter type and pulled the napkin. This and many other scenerios could be looked at. I would be hot if the lowbie got the one item I was still looking for and didn't put it up. Keep this nonsense to the guild runs or short mans OR better yet announce it in your LFM.

[Aranticus]

the question is not whether that level 4 is there to boost the loot chance or since only 3 people are needed so even a L4 can join.

what i see here is simply guile and manipulation by the raid leader. most of the raids are listed 13-16 or 12-16 (if the leader is around that level). should i be a L4 AND i'm NOT a friend of his/hers, i'm not likely to be accepted as he/she knows i'm not going to make a significant contribution. if the leader is going to invite a L4 friend, then in the lfm, list it as 1-16. allow other lowbies to join.

if this had happened to me, i would not mind if i'm told way ahead in advance. reaver goups during certain times can be hard to fill up. most people are not going to sit there while the group fills then leave. if i do not want a L4 in the group tell me as i join the group, so i can have the option of dropping the group BEFORE i've spent 30 min waiting for the group to filll then the surprise is sprung.

yes, the raids in ddo do not need tons of players to make it a success. but this does not mean players should sit back and relax. take the reaver for example, the other melees can get a charge then use wounders to make it easier to banish, pk, destruct, fod the elementals. most melees are also on the earth elementals in the puzzle room.

at velah, yes there can only be 3 players on the pillars. but dependant on the number of healers in the party, more than one "heros" can be sent out. in fact for each healer you have, you can send out 1 melee, if more than 2 healers, you can even send out all while the healers mass heal. a 5 min fight becomes 1 min.

any and everyone can make a contribution in any quest. the questions are: ARE you willing to make a contribution, WHEN are you making the contribution? :rolleyes:

PS: i've accepted toons lower than what i specified in my lfm, but only after i asked the party, if they are ok with it, i'll invite. if not i decline. and no, hes not a guildie or a friend, just a pugger :)

[Zenako]

Let me just ask, can any character even enter the Reaver Raid without being blooded? Which also means having been in PotP, Crucible, and Madstone. Could someone be a pocket soulstone participant in those three, sure, could they also get handed 60 relics, sure, but this seems like a lot of work to "let someone see the raid" scenario to have any merit. Since I know I have been on short man runs on all of those (except for the Dragons in the Tor, although sometimes it felt like we were short a person or two) it would be possible, but the only reason I can see is to get an extra chance at raid loot, with the entire expectation that the lowbie will get it to the high level "friend" / character.

[Angelus_dead]

at velah, yes there can only be 3 players on the pillars. but dependant on the number of healers in the party, more than one "heros" can be sent out. in fact for each healer you have, you can send out 1 melee, if more than 2 healers, you can even send out all while the healers mass heal. a 5 min fight becomes 1 min.

any and everyone can make a contribution in any quest. the questions are: ARE you willing to make a contribution, WHEN are you making the contribution? :rolleyes:
Scraping off 4 minutes from the completion time doesn't count as a meaningful contribution. It would mean we finish the quest at 8:15 instead of 8:19. Considering that it's on top of 60+ minutes to get to that point, and then 50+ hours before the timer is over until we can do it again, 4 minutes doesn't matter at all.

Time to fight Velah isn't the limiting factor, not even close.

[Strakeln]

It seems to me that a lot of you are looking at this the wrong way.

Low level characters are excellent mascots for raid groups. They get into all sorts of trouble, in the silliest of locations. Of course, you should always give them important assignments, and send them in first to every fight... make them work for their twink loot!

Finally, need I remind everyone that low level characters are easily greased?

Edit: on further contemplation, has Tija been gone so long that former Riedrans have forgotten about Safety Net?

[Karr]

That's mostly true.

You see, what happened is Turbine's initial raid loot drops were 2 per raid group, regardless of if you had 1 or 12 players. They had an idea that this would come out to 1 per 6 players, because raid groups would be full 12, or close to it.

However, they were completely wrong. The game design of the raid encounters was such that there was never a need to bring more than 6 players. Usually, there was no need for more than 3.
Dragon: 3 pillars, 3 guys
Titan: 1 chopper + 1 button + 1 puller = 3 guys
Laliat: 1 shooter + 1 tank + 1 healer = 3 guys
Reaver: 1 tank + 1 nuker + 1 healer = 3 guys
You could do some of those raids with less, or even solo, but with 3-4 people is the point where you felt there was no player working hard and trying to divide his time between doing two jobs at once. One person, one task. Straightforward and simple.

Normally, having 12 players in an instance that only had jobs for 3 players would be a big problem. It would make the raid fairly boring for most of the players. And in fact, that is exactly what happened, as was especially visible in the VON Dragon raid. It was absolutely normal for 10/12 of the players to stand around and go AFK waiting at the door for the first 10-15 minutes of the raid, while 2 players worked on clearing the pillars. Then a 3rd player would wake up and those guys break the pillars, at which point the others can help fight for the last 2 minutes (although they're not needed, because any pair of cleric + tank can do it themselves).

However, the accidental saving grace was that because there were exactly 2 loot drops per raid, there was no real incentive to bring anywhere close to 12 players to the raid. Once players learned what was going on, they'd only bring 12 for social reasons- to have them killing time in a chat room. Raids generally were run with 3-6, which was a good result, even if unintentional, because it meant that a much lower proportion of the raid group was left standing around with nothing to do.

But it seems Turbine didn't recognize the benefits of that interaction. So when a change to their chest code allowed them to drop raid loots at 1/6th per player instead of 2/group, they switched it over. This caused a loot incentive to pack the raid up to 12 players, simply to output the maximum amount of loot. The additional players weren't recruited to help win the raid- they were brought to help take from the chest. It's like you say: people with dual-boxes and lootbot mules would have no reason to invite PUG members to the raid at all. The PUGs are only brought to multiply chest drops.


Maybe it works that way for you, but look at it from another point of view.

I've been in Reaver raids that failed. I have YET, in 10 tries, been in a group to beat Velah. Some moron blows it every time, and yeah its a shame, but it happens. Given that, I tend to be a little less than patient when people want to short-man a raid insisting they've done it hundreds of times and always win, or they bring along people who have no clue what they are doing and risk blowing it for the rest of us, or like in this case, they bring along someone who cannot contribute at all. I'm sorry I'm not as jaded as you are, but I want to BEAT the dang raid, and actually get something for my efforts. Not just a "dang, nice try guys, we'll try again in a couple of days."

BS!!!

If you are part of the group, you should be expected to contribute, even if you are superfluous. Things may happen during the execution of the quest that are unforseen and totally excusable, but when you begin every member should be present and prepared to do their best. Period.

[blaylock_avalone]

Quanefel, has it ever occured to you that maybe that lowbie is just testing how far he or she can go at that level. It's no different from trying to solo a Reaver raid or running TS naked or running all bard Dragon Raid - just to break the notion that It can't be done. If you're a useless level 16 in the raid, then you're no better than a lowbie in the raid. It was done in good fun and if people feel annoyed over this matter, they should just drop group. Why stayed on? So you can cry about it on the forums? You could have dropped and leave it at that. Next time, don't join.

[Capp]

Get over it...go pick on lvl 4's in pvp...;P

[AlariaTheAngry]

*cracks nuckles* Ok ready.... GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ! guys ok i get the drift but just an fyi here...ddo = game, game= fun, lvl four getting toasted by dragon/titan/reaver = hilariously funny. No said toon did not recieve raid loot, said toon did conribute as far as im concerned, i laughed, i laughed some more then I laughed so hard i cried ;P. Whats wrong with a lvl 4 in reaver? did it hurt anyone? CMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've four manned the reaver for crying out loud! get over it. Your un happy i understand why to a point....But let me ask this for those who know "nameless lvl 4 reaver running toon owner". Has said owner not helped us all in raids before? have you never benefitted from one of said owners raids? Have you never ran a quest said owne helped through? Said owner has all raid loots, said owner has almost highest favor you can have on at least four toons...Let the said owner have some dang fun for crying out loud. And op remeber if you throw down the gauntlet at a certain said owner for a joke and a non violation since said owner was not going for raid loot but for comedic relief that you should take a big step back look in a mirror and realize said owners not the killjoy or the bad guy.....just the smart one for remembering ITS JUST A FLIPPIN GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beerthirty]

Was there a rogue in the party? Was the rogue any more useful than the level 4?

I say that because other than casters, clerics and 1 tank, no one in that party was contributing in a significant way, just like the level 4.

Where was that level 4 helping out picking locks on Madstone or doing the Crucible swim?

[Angelus_dead]

I've been in Reaver raids that failed. I have YET, in 10 tries, been in a group to beat Velah. Some moron blows it every time, and yeah its a shame, but it happens. Given that, I tend to be a little less than patient when people want to short-man a raid
Stop and think about what you're saying.

You said you always fail dragon runs because of "some moron" doing something stupid. Maybe if you had fewer people, you'd also have fewer morons.


I'm sorry I'm not as jaded as you are, but I want to BEAT the dang raid, and actually get something for my efforts.
Bringing a lot of people doesn't really increase your chance of winning. All you need are 3-6 capable people. If your current raid members are incapable, then adding more people increases the chance you'll have a good player with you, so it helps in that regard. But it's a matter of you needing them, not them needing you.

[Quanefel]

*cracks nuckles* Ok ready.... GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ! guys ok i get the drift but just an fyi here...ddo = game, game= fun, lvl four getting toasted by dragon/titan/reaver = hilariously funny. No said toon did not recieve raid loot, said toon did conribute as far as im concerned, i laughed, i laughed some more then I laughed so hard i cried ;P. Whats wrong with a lvl 4 in reaver? did it hurt anyone? CMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've four manned the reaver for crying out loud! get over it. Your un happy i understand why to a point....But let me ask this for those who know "nameless lvl 4 reaver running toon owner". Has said owner not helped us all in raids before? have you never benefitted from one of said owners raids? Have you never ran a quest said owne helped through? Said owner has all raid loots, said owner has almost highest favor you can have on at least four toons...Let the said owner have some dang fun for crying out loud. And op remeber if you throw down the gauntlet at a certain said owner for a joke and a non violation since said owner was not going for raid loot but for comedic relief that you should take a big step back look in a mirror and realize said owners not the killjoy or the bad guy.....just the smart one for remembering ITS JUST A FLIPPIN GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is possible that this person only did it for the comic effect of dying a minute into the quest. Them spending all that time to flag for the Raid, complete all 3 quests, run the pre-raid, turn in relics was simply for comic relief for a moment in time and not anything to do with twinking out a low level toon with raid items or +3 tomes. I am sure you are right, that it would not be the case of their greed getting the better of them at all. As far as throwing down the gaunlet at said person, please point to where I mentioned the persons name, their guild name or name of the raid leader? Oh, because I never did nor will ever do. People want to get defensive about their poor personal behavior such as I wrote about speaks clearly of what kind of person they really are. Even now that I know who the person is, does it matter? No. Yet if people want to blacklist me or talk trash about me or any of my guildmates for speaking my mind and expressing my thoughts openingly, so be it. It does not make me a bad person, it makes those who do it the bad players.

[AlariaTheAngry]

no your right, you didnt mention any names.... can anyone reading this tell me a second lvl 4 running raids besides the obvious? i'll back down on that point if so............ Did not at any point mention blacklisting if I remember correctly, see blacklisting is a funny thing, you have to actually worry about accidently running with that person to black list. I tend to READ lfms before i join, and if memory serves me right most times (and ive been in nearly all on some toon or another) the mentioned lvl 4 runs raids they are in first two/three people to join including being leader of at least one i can remember...kinda obvious theres a lvl 4 in group dontcha think?reading lfms might help a bit :) And let me ask you why in the world would i black list/insult/gossip ect about your guild because i disagreed with your short sighted veiws on humor? BTW that lvl 4 has survived many a raid, not dying in the first three minutes , not even in the first twenty minutes. Also hsa the ability knowldge whatever ya want to call it to run, organize and complete all raids in game without hints, exploits or pointers. So personally since said lvl 4 can complete the reaver puzzle blindfolded and hand tied behind back i would guess there was a healthy comtribution 80% of the time. minus the one insta death you speak of just incase i missed it as not on 24 hours a day...I cant complete that puzzle personally, so maybe my veiw is a bit twisted on that raid. I kinda like having the ability to complete. And how is not taking any raid loot, not even rolling on it, for greed or twinking? besides the fact between said lvl 4 and guildmates the twinking for any cost is pretty much covered so no need to get raid loot till later lvls that is....any answer? Stll disagree about the funny though, i think even an insta death can be hilarious if in the right situation....and have you never ever in the history of you playing ran a raid with less that 12? if not bravo...good for you...yippee hip hip horray. But if you've ever even ran with 11 then why the he double hockey sticks is this even a big deal......... let me recap:
1. you did not fail raid
2. you did not loose raid loot to a lvl 4
3. you did not have a wipe/ death/ loss/ injury due to a lvl 4 (who supposedly died imediately therefore removing toon from even being able to hurt party in anyway)
hmmmmmm no bad point yet.....
4. you didnt laugh, oh well guess thats the one drawback..... darn guess you win.... pfffffft!

[Frodo_Lives]

Actually the OP says that they were inside buffing when the lvl 4 guy joined the group as the last or one of the last members of the raid.

It has nothing to do with reading the LFM before joining.

Despite all the chest pounding about how the Reaver can be done in any PuG with 3 people and how it's next to impossible to fail, that if you are not a caster you are useless as a level 4 blah blah blah. Which in the average PuG is far from true. Most of the time, sure, but lots of times you end up with 4 or 5 dead characters or the runs turns to garbage for one reason or another. Either way I agree that the lvl 4 was probably not replacing a needed or valuable member of a raid party, but rather just filling a spot.

But the point being is that a lvl 4 should never be sprung on a PuG raid as last man joining. If I know that there is a lvl 4 in the group when I join and I'm good with that then hey no problem. Having him join up as the last member makes it a little tough to believe that it was a coincidence. The player behind the keyboard may be awesome, but there is no way that he belongs in a PuG Reaver raid at level 4. I don't think it's funny that someone is sneaking an extreme lowbie on a raid, and even if the raid goes off without a hitch, it still was springing something on the rest of the raid party that IMO was weasily.

[Strakeln]

If he pulled raid loot that wasn't usable to him or the people who invited him to the raid, you mean. After all, you're not going to invite a level 4 to a reaver raid and then not expect him to give you the +3 int tome he pulls when you're a wizard. This might anger alot of people in the raid, but unless you're very naive, you knew that was the deal going in. Again, however, you only have yourself to blame. Drop the raid if you don't like the situation, whether it be a lowbie running it or someone dual-boxing it, but don't go complaining that they didn't let the raid roll on the +3 tome when you knew that would be the situation ahead of time.In my opinion, that +3 int tome would be the only reason to do this. Everything else is all the same whether you use it at level 1 or 16, but int tomes make significant differences the earlier they are used (cough give us skill respec, dammit!)

[Krazed]

In my opinion, that +3 int tome would be the only reason to do this. Everything else is all the same whether you use it at level 1 or 16, but int tomes make significant differences the earlier they are used (cough give us skill respec, dammit!)


Actually, my point was that the lowbie was more likely there to give his raid items to the person/people who invited him, rather than keep them himself. Considering they would have a much lesser effect on him than on level appropriate people. That and to get 1 completion closer to 20, which if you can do by the time you're level 10 or less, is very nice.

[Quanefel]

no your right, you didnt mention any names.... can anyone reading this tell me a second lvl 4 running raids besides the obvious? i'll back down on that point if so............ Did not at any point mention blacklisting if I remember correctly, see blacklisting is a funny thing, you have to actually worry about accidently running with that person to black list. I tend to READ lfms before i join, and if memory serves me right most times (and ive been in nearly all on some toon or another) the mentioned lvl 4 runs raids they are in first two/three people to join including being leader of at least one i can remember...kinda obvious theres a lvl 4 in group dontcha think?reading lfms might help a bit :) And let me ask you why in the world would i black list/insult/gossip ect about your guild because i disagreed with your short sighted veiws on humor? BTW that lvl 4 has survived many a raid, not dying in the first three minutes , not even in the first twenty minutes. Also hsa the ability knowldge whatever ya want to call it to run, organize and complete all raids in game without hints, exploits or pointers. So personally since said lvl 4 can complete the reaver puzzle blindfolded and hand tied behind back i would guess there was a healthy comtribution 80% of the time. minus the one insta death you speak of just incase i missed it as not on 24 hours a day...I cant complete that puzzle personally, so maybe my veiw is a bit twisted on that raid. I kinda like having the ability to complete. And how is not taking any raid loot, not even rolling on it, for greed or twinking? besides the fact between said lvl 4 and guildmates the twinking for any cost is pretty much covered so no need to get raid loot till later lvls that is....any answer? Stll disagree about the funny though, i think even an insta death can be hilarious if in the right situation....and have you never ever in the history of you playing ran a raid with less that 12? if not bravo...good for you...yippee hip hip horray. But if you've ever even ran with 11 then why the he double hockey sticks is this even a big deal......... let me recap:
1. you did not fail raid
2. you did not loose raid loot to a lvl 4
3. you did not have a wipe/ death/ loss/ injury due to a lvl 4 (who supposedly died imediately therefore removing toon from even being able to hurt party in anyway)
hmmmmmm no bad point yet.....
4. you didnt laugh, oh well guess thats the one drawback..... darn guess you win.... pfffffft!

Thanks for acknowledging I did not list names. As far as any other 4th lvl toon in raids, how the heck would I know? I do not go on raids much nor have I seen someone so low a level such as the lvl 4 this last week in that raid, ever. If I and the others who were part of a raid did not see the level 4 in the group, maybe because most people assume that everyone in the raid is of appropriate level to begin with? If I remember correctly, many of the people in the raid when it was announced there was a 4th lvl toon tagging along were a bit surprised to say the least. They were asking questions about it or at least thinking the same thing. Reading the lfm's? Well, there was no mention in the lfm about any 4th lvl toon coming along and it was listed as something like Level 14-16. I am sure anyone who have double checked if it was listed as a 4-16 raid. So please don't act like we are all idiots for seeing an lfm that was not there to begin with.

Blacklisting. My point about that is yes, its a funny thing. It does not always work the way it was intended because alot of times people or guilds being blacklisted, are blacklisted for all the wrong reasons. Such as this person who was clearly upset about me posting this not having all the facts and pretty much made me feel they got it from second-hand knowledge such as someone else telling them. Now with that said, I can see how easy it would be for this upset person telling a friend or a guildmate their misinformed information as fact when it clearly is only half the story. These friends or guildmates might want to come to this persons defense intended or unintended and blacklist another person or group of people based off feelings, not facts. Even people reading this in the forums might blacklist one side or the other in this argument, for their own reasons. Now it might stand to reason why I did not list the name of the toon, or the guild that was involved to save them the trouble of being mocked or blacklisted by people who view a 4th lvl toon in a raid as simply....cheating. Even now that I know the person, I still like the person and would not announce who they were to anyone. This person wants to think this is all about them when in fact, it is not. It is about the idea that a low level toon would be in a raid.

What you view as funny or humorous is not always something other people would find funny. We are all individuals and have our own sense of humor, it is arrogance for one person to ASSUME their idea of what is humorous is humorous to everyone. You will find not many people will see any "humor" in a level 4 toon in any pug raid, especially when it is obvious that this player on the 4th lvl toon loves raids and raid loot in particular. Trying to convince others it was purely for "humor" and not about twinking out a low level toon using pugs in a raid to accomplish this is, a bit insulting to say the least. Now if this person loves raids, loves raids loot or wants to brag about how elite they are when it comes to raid loot, good for them. Of course it is all completely beside the point, in fact it has nothing to do with a 4th level toon in a pug raid at all. I can brag about my accomplishments but what does it have to do with this subject anyways? Nothing at all. It is almost like a person wants to brag as though making excuses for bad behavior. Just because one person wants to be all uber or elite does not give any one person free reign to do ANYTHING they please. People in general tend to have a negative view of people who think they are above rules we all live by or people have a dim view of others they see as...cheating.

1. you did not fail raid-------------> Not the point.
2. you did not loose raid loot to a lvl 4----------------->Not the point.
3. you did not have a wipe/ death/ loss/ injury due to a lvl 4 (who supposedly died imediately therefore removing toon from even being able to hurt party in anyway)---------------->Again, not the point.
hmmmmmm no bad point yet.....
4. you didnt laugh, oh well guess thats the one drawback..... darn guess you win.... pfffffft!---------------> People tend to laugh when they find something funny, if this person was laughing about it, fine. But I am almost positive I heard no one else laughing about it.

One final thing to consider, if this toon was not there for raid loot, explain to everyone why they even bothered to walk to the raid chest afterwords and grab their loot? If it was all for humor and not for any loot at all, why even bother to look inside the chest? If it was for only humor, they would have released when they died or left the quest once it was over. Walking over to grab loot that is being claimed was not why they were in their seems a bit dishonest to some people. Sure, maybe this time there was not raid loot for that person in the chest, but how many times before was there a raid item for that toon in a chest? Like I wrote before, if people want to do these things within an all guild raid or all friends raid, go for it. Subjecting random pug players to it is not right. Keep these things to yourselves, please.

[Strakeln]

I was in a raid where a level 4 bard popped in at the last minute a few days ago. Might even be the same raid, as I ran a reaver with Quanefel around the same time. My only problem with it is that we didn't make him tank the reaver. Woulda been fun to try to keep the lil guy alive!

[blaylock_avalone]

From the silly level 4 doing reaver raid:

Oh I think this is gonna get even more interesting when we put a name to that mysterious level 4 .Look at that...it was me lol. I just thought it would be funny to have my lowbie do reaver. Didn't mean to cause any problems;). When it comes to looting the chests come on it is there it says my name on it how is that cheating, right?

Lets get to the night when that happend. I saw an LFM for reaver and asked the leader if I could join. He didn't seem to have any problem with it. They already had a good amount of casters,clerics and could have finished raid with or without me. When I joined somebody asked me if I am really a level 4 or they are bugged lol and I said that I am. Interesting nobody seemed to have a problem with it.I mean if you were that unhappy with it you would say something wouldn't you? So what did I do to help the group? Well, whatever a silly level 4 bard can do hahaha played my uber songs lol tossed some healing, not that you can really see it when I can only heal so much. Well the reverse gravity comes and I exploded on the ceiling big deal lol. And lets see what the owner of this post did to help the party? Did he kill any elementals............not really .............did he pull lever, not really. Did he do anything to help ............well again not really. So kind of like what was the diference of me and him being there? well he stayed alive and I didn't. We had the sorc/WF tank the reaver, so don't know the OP's major contribution.

But come on lets face it you proly have heard people soloing the reaver or even done it yourself. So basically you need 1-3 people to complete the quest.But how would you know that???By experimenting and having experience. I am not trying to brag about this but I have done the raid over 400 times successfully and I have seen all kind of scenarios.I have led maybe 75% of those raids. And it doesn't always go smooth I can't lie but come on it doesn't take 12 people to do it! It is just a fact that I wanted to put out for people that don't know me. And for people that do, they know that I have given alot of raid items and such. So come on what is the big deal? And then again why didn't you say anything at the time right? Well there is another fact that I would like to state, some people have never led a raid (not sure if OP has) because they don't know how to - They don't even know where the levers are in the reaver or how to do the puzzle. I do not have a problem with people not knowing or be new at something and I have been taking alot of people to my raids even if they say they are new to quest.But if you're not gonna be able to help with something don't cry about stuff.

Bottom line is we are all here because we love the game and the people and we like to have fun wouldn't you rather spend your time playing instead of complaining lol. I really do not visit forums but for real this was a very silly posting. Anyhow we stil won.

Don't forget the main reason you play:HAVE FUN:)

Aussie, Aussiee, Rockstarr, Smilley, Marylen, Yami, Revolution, Songblast and famous level 4 Lapdance hahaha

[Rog]

back in the day when DQ1 elite loots runs was hot during a +1 loot weekend i randsacked all my toon except my level 2 mule(hordlootmule):) so i said what the hell might as well bring in my mule being the only toon i had left and i pulled my first disrupter with him i was so happy only had to ransack 5 toons but it paid off level 12 was the cap and undead ruled the day dam i wish we had quick and easy loot runs like that still

[Lorien_the_First_One]

From the silly level 4 doing reaver raid:

...snip...

Don't forget the main reason you play:HAVE FUN:)

I like your outlook, you're welcome at my next Reaver Raid. Or how about the Abbot? We'll all die there anyway so you can contribute as much as the L16s :D

[Strakeln]

back in the day when DQ1 elite loots runs was hot during a +1 loot weekend i randsacked all my toon except my level 2 mule(hordlootmule):) so i said what the hell might as well bring in my mule being the only toon i had left and i pulled my first disrupter with him i was so happy only had to ransack 5 toons but it paid off level 12 was the cap and undead ruled the day dam i wish we had quick and easy loot runs like that stillAh, the good ole days when Qwijy was a pocketbard. The one I took out of my pocket whenever I wanted a buff... or needed a hand pulling all the loot out of a chest from DQ1 elite :D

[bobbryan2]

Wow, there are a lot of people who apparantly get offended.

1) If you didn't like it, you coulda left.
2) That level 4 paid his relics, ran the 4 pre quests (and knowing that he's trying to insanely twink his guy out... he probably contributed more than half the pug people I ever group with)
3) You didn't fail the raid
4) He didn't hurt your chances for your 1/6 loot


In conclusion... it didn't affect you in the slightest. Not even a tiny, miniscule, iddy, biddy bit. Why people get so up in arms about things that don't even effect them, I'll never know. So many people argue and complain "on the principle of the matter" that I think they have just forgotten how to let things go.

[Blagrak]

Lets get to the night when that happend. I saw an LFM for reaver and asked the leader if I could join. *SNIP*

Just curious - you would have had to have run Crucible, Madstone, Prison, turned in 20 of each relic (which I'm sure you had plenty of), and then get blooded in the tor. So you didn't just decide one night to do the Reaver. This has obviously been planned. So what is the purpose of having him/her reaver ready so soon? Did you go through all those quests as a stone in somebody's pocket? Are you just dual-boxing a character up with friends? Do they all do this?

I could care less that a L4 is in the reaver, but I'd sure like to hear you say why he/she is.

[Cinwulf]

I was recently in a pug raid this past week and experienced something I never really saw before. We are all inside buffing and the leader announces that a friend of his who was in group was only 2-4th level, that he would be joining us in the raid. It caught everyone by surprise and most were asking polite questions like how is he flagged, etc. I was going to ask questions but I thought, whats the use. We left it at that and went in. The low level toon died within minutes and hung out in the dead room the whole quest. Rezzed once raid was done, collected his loot and left. Not sure he got a raid item but thats not the point. My point is this, why is anyone doing this in a pug group in the first place? Sure, if you are with all guild mates or all friends I can see that. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with a pug raid group leader springing it on us at the last minute, when we are already buffing and itching to get the raid started. Why do the rest of the raid party have to pick up his slack when he contributed nothing to the raid at all. Why do we have to do all the work just so he can walk up and collect raid loot?

Now, I am sure some will say that there are plenty of times level appropriate toons do not pull their weight in a raid too. That is true but it is rare. Each time I have been in a raid, everyone wants to do their part. Everyone wants to help out the best they can for any of a number of reasons. To prove their skills to other players, because they are overjoyed to be apart of something big like a raid, etc. We each have our own reasons but we all want to help the best we can. Yet if you go into a raid knowing full well you will not contribute any help at all AND fully expect everyone else to do your work for you for your raid loot. Sorry folks, that does not feel right at all.

Understand though like I wrote above, if everyone in the raid are friends or guild mates not many would care at all. If you want to pull the weight of your friend's or guild mates, go for it. But expecting complete strangers to look the other way and to have them pick up the slack for what is in essence piggybacking on the part of this low level toon, is simply wrong. How can anyone think this is ok to do?

Now I won't complain or be rude to anyone if I was to be in this situation again. For the simple fact I will just politely bow out of the raid and wish them all luck. I will not preach to them how wrong it is nor talk trash of the ones pulling this on pug raids. If you want to be a part of it or see nothing wrong with it, good for you. As for me, I will find something else to do. Not a problem with me.

What do others feel about this?

Sounds suspiciously like someone was two boxing the raid, and no I wouldn't like it at all. I'd avoid any further raids with this raid leader.

Even if he wasn't two boxing I'd still not like the idea of having someone along who can't contribute, just to pull loot.

[ccheath776]

I was recently in a pug raid this past week and experienced something I never really saw before. We are all inside buffing and the leader announces that a friend of his who was in group was only 2-4th level, that he would be joining us in the raid. It caught everyone by surprise and most were asking polite questions like how is he flagged, etc. I was going to ask questions but I thought, whats the use. We left it at that and went in. The low level toon died within minutes and hung out in the dead room the whole quest. Rezzed once raid was done, collected his loot and left. Not sure he got a raid item but thats not the point. My point is this, why is anyone doing this in a pug group in the first place? Sure, if you are with all guild mates or all friends I can see that. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with a pug raid group leader springing it on us at the last minute, when we are already buffing and itching to get the raid started. Why do the rest of the raid party have to pick up his slack when he contributed nothing to the raid at all. Why do we have to do all the work just so he can walk up and collect raid loot?

Now, I am sure some will say that there are plenty of times level appropriate toons do not pull their weight in a raid too. That is true but it is rare. Each time I have been in a raid, everyone wants to do their part. Everyone wants to help out the best they can for any of a number of reasons. To prove their skills to other players, because they are overjoyed to be apart of something big like a raid, etc. We each have our own reasons but we all want to help the best we can. Yet if you go into a raid knowing full well you will not contribute any help at all AND fully expect everyone else to do your work for you for your raid loot. Sorry folks, that does not feel right at all.

Understand though like I wrote above, if everyone in the raid are friends or guild mates not many would care at all. If you want to pull the weight of your friend's or guild mates, go for it. But expecting complete strangers to look the other way and to have them pick up the slack for what is in essence piggybacking on the part of this low level toon, is simply wrong. How can anyone think this is ok to do?

Now I won't complain or be rude to anyone if I was to be in this situation again. For the simple fact I will just politely bow out of the raid and wish them all luck. I will not preach to them how wrong it is nor talk trash of the ones pulling this on pug raids. If you want to be a part of it or see nothing wrong with it, good for you. As for me, I will find something else to do. Not a problem with me.

What do others feel about this?

Well that would be a dumb move on the level 4's part. Since they would not get any xp for starters.
Secondly, chests are level appropriate which means the highest level loot he can attain is a level 4. In essence he would never get raid loot unless someone assigned it to him.
Ehh it was probably a gold farmer and you just got farmed.

[bobbryan2]

Well that would be a dumb move on the level 4's part. Since they would not get any xp for starters.
Secondly, chests are level appropriate which means the highest level loot he can attain is a level 4. In essence he would never get raid loot unless someone assigned it to him.
Ehh it was probably a gold farmer and you just got farmed.

That's not how I think it works. Chests aren't level appropriate. If you are significantly under the level of the quest, the loot generated will be from a lower table to avoid situations where level ones ransack on BTG.

However, I haven't heard that that keeps you from getting raid loot. I would think you still have the same 1 in 6 chance as everyone else.

And it obviously wasn't a farmer. Why would a farmer farm raid quests at level 4 to get bound raid loot? That doesn't even make sense.

[ShadowHand2]

I was told about this and had to read it all for myself....WOW. I heard the "it was for comic relief" line a few times. I guess the joke was the other players who had not died in the first minute who got the joke played on them. I am thinking I know who this person is and from the stand point this person mostly does raids( pre-raids as well). That is well within his/her right to do so. It to me, shows that the person has this notion that DDO offers merit badges to the player who collects the most raid loot. So, what real reason was a lv 4 going on a raid and then die within mins? Someone had to have known who you are to let you jump into that raid. Besides the fact that you would have had to flag for the raid and also do Tor. Must have some mighty like minded friends to allow you to catch a free ride. Was that the first time you ran the reaver then with that lv 4? Must have been funny to first time for you if you did it any more then that. I also see greed in a player doing this. Sure, they can down play it all they wish. They can say it was for good humor for them or whoever it was for. However, I am sure those who did not know you were not laugh much. Say you did get a tome or raid loot......would you pass it off to all who could have used it in that raid? Or would I be safe to assume it would have been tossed to friends/guild mates without a blink? Sounds to me that this was done to insure raid loot was distributed to pre-agreed on person/s. Sounds like a well thought out plan and designed to make the odds better for those involved.

Comic releif...lol...oh it is funny alright.

[ccheath776]

That's not how I think it works. Chests aren't level appropriate. If you are significantly under the level of the quest, the loot generated will be from a lower table to avoid situations where level ones ransack on BTG.

However, I haven't heard that that keeps you from getting raid loot. I would think you still have the same 1 in 6 chance as everyone else.

And it obviously wasn't a farmer. Why would a farmer farm raid quests at level 4 to get bound raid loot? That doesn't even make sense.

Not what I heard. If your a level 4 going into a level 12 quest, you get loot that is level appropriate. Otherwise you would have mad dashes of farmers going for the reaver raid. A level 1 - 4 would never be able to get level 12 - 16 loot even if they went into a level 12 - 16 quest.
Although not confirmed I am pretty sure there is a safeguard in the raid tables that doesn't allow significantly low level toons to get raid loot for just the reason of this scenario.
If not, it should be put in.

[smatt]

Hmm, well I dont' see any reasonable way for an experianced player to use this situation as an short-cut. Perhaps it started as a challenge.... IE: "I bet I can get a level 4 toon through Madstone, Crucible ect alive with a party LOL..." ORRRRRRRRRRRR, perhaps it was a poorly thought-out attempt to test a theory that a guild could drag a bunch of lowbies through the pre-reqs... Then do Reavor's guild only with short man level appropriate toons, adding in however many lowbie toons to spike the loot drop up for thier high level guild ttons, thereby increasing the amount of +3 tomes drops for their high level toons. In other words, they use say a bunch of pack toons they created pre-server merge, toons they never really meant to level up. I'm not saying that's what the plans were, but really that's the only logical way to game the system with such a thing...... Either it's poorly thought out humour or poorly implemented e*****t testing, who knows....

[Gunga]

Hmm, well I dont' see any reasonable way for an experianced player to use this situation as an short-cut. Perhaps it started as a challenge.... IE: "I bet I can get a level 4 toon through Madstone, Crucible ect alive with a party LOL..." ORRRRRRRRRRRR, perhaps it was a poorly thought-out attempt to test a theory that a guild could drag a bunch of lowbies through the pre-reqs... Then do Reavor's guild only with short man level appropriate toons, adding in however many lowbie toons to spike the loot drop up for thier high level guild ttons, thereby increasing the amount of +3 tomes drops for their high level toons. In other words, they use say a bunch of pack toons they created pre-server merge, toons they never really meant to level up. I'm not saying that's what the plans were, but really that's the only logical way to game the system with such a thing...... Either it's poorly thought out humour or poorly implemented e*****t testing, who knows....

/signed.

and who cares?

[reefhut]

I suppose it's the ultimate in twinking. Having bound raid items waiting for you when you level up. :( That garbage doesn't fly with me. Everyone in the group could have said item already and it STILL shouldn't go to the lowbie.

/signed , and good point. F 'em!

[smatt]

/signed.

and who cares?


Well exactly..... Let em do it if it makes them feel so L333T

[smatt]

Well that would be a dumb move on the level 4's part. Since they would not get any xp for starters.
Secondly, chests are level appropriate which means the highest level loot he can attain is a level 4. In essence he would never get raid loot unless someone assigned it to him.
Ehh it was probably a gold farmer and you just got farmed.


Hmm, yes for regular loot... BUT do we all know that bound raid loot is set the same way... PERHAPS, this was part of the testing.... And perhaps not.....

[Oreg]

Could care less if this happens. Reaver raids occur multiple times per hour so nobody is missing out because he was on the raid. If he wants to flag his guy by level 4 I don't see how it affects me in the least in that Raid.

[Strakeln]

For those of us coming into the thread late, the "culprit" has outed himself in a post.

I might add that he did have a valid point... his contribution was more or less on the same level of the OP's (to be clear, I was in this raid as well). The OP brought his fighter in and was not tanking the reaver. So he stood and waited for his loot, much like the lowbie bard (and the other ~7 or so bored group members).

And, since I was in the raid, I can indeed verify that someone (me) got a chuckle out of seeing that little level 4 bard. Quanefel did not cause me to chuckle. So... did the bard contribute more? :D

[ShadowHand2]

For those of us coming into the thread late, the "culprit" has outed himself in a post.

I might add that he did have a valid point... his contribution was more or less on the same level of the OP's (to be clear, I was in this raid as well). The OP brought his fighter in and was not tanking the reaver. So he stood and waited for his loot, much like the lowbie bard (and the other ~7 or so bored group members).

And, since I was in the raid, I can indeed verify that someone (me) got a chuckle out of seeing that little level 4 bard. Quanefel did not cause me to chuckle. So... did the bard contribute more? :D

I am sure your statements at the time was well thought out and sounded good inside.....to bad it has nothing to do with anything with what the OP was talking about or asking. It does not seem very genuine to reverse the blame on the OP for not contributing in said raid. His and others part in the raid involved them putting some effort be it little but some. Now, I am sure you did get some chuckle from said 4th bard.......are you now speak for the rest in the raid then? I see what you and a few others might be done with this whole thing. Defending something that seems and is wrong by downplaying the whole thing or making it less in hopes it is ignored. I would hedge to bet the opinions shared against the OP are in fact friends/guildmemebers which is subject to bias for simple self-preservation. Do I know the OP...sure. Do I every agree with everything he says or writes....not at all. I do however see when he tries to point to a moral hiccup in players in the game and somehow a few seem to add they see nothing wrong.

You can have 1.5 millions excuses why you would have brought a 4th lv bard, that changes nothing. The flagging a 4th lv to join raids still stays out there as not right. Greed, imo, seems the only driving force for said reason. If it was for mere humor as suggested then the 4th bard would have no issue with leaving loot in chest then right? After all humor should be free right?

[Strakeln]

I am sure your statements at the time was well thought out and sounded good inside.....to bad it has nothing to do with anything with what the OP was talking about or asking. It does not seem very genuine to reverse the blame on the OP for not contributing in said raid. His and others part in the raid involved them putting some effort be it little but some. Now, I am sure you did get some chuckle from said 4th bard.......are you now speak for the rest in the raid then? I see what you and a few others might be done with this whole thing. Defending something that seems and is wrong by downplaying the whole thing or making it less in hopes it is ignored. I would hedge to bet the opinions shared against the OP are in fact friends/guildmemebers which is subject to bias for simple self-preservation. Do I know the OP...sure. Do I every agree with everything he says or writes....not at all. I do however see when he tries to point to a moral hiccup in players in the game and somehow a few seem to add they see nothing wrong.

You can have 1.5 millions excuses why you would have brought a 4th lv bard, that changes nothing. The flagging a 4th lv to join raids still stays out there as not right. Greed, imo, seems the only driving force for said reason. If it was for mere humor as suggested then the 4th bard would have no issue with leaving loot in chest then right? After all humor should be free right?Actually, I "knew" no one in the raid, except perhaps by association (such as OP, since he was on his char that shares the same name as his forum account). You can verify this yourself if necessary, my character names are all listed below, and the bard in question has his listed. We aren't in any guilds together, and I don't run with him unless we fall into a pug together. So by your standards, my opinions are clearly unbiased.

Note that I have never put forth the argument that said bard did this for humor's sake. I've suggested fun things to do with level 4's, such as making them tank or greasing them. I've stated that I got a kick out of seeing him in there... the point being, to show that at least someone enjoyed his company and thought it was pretty funny.

I'm not sure why you think the motive is unclear to anyone. Obviously it was done for "greed", the humor is just a wonderful byproduct.

One thing you're way off on... what I'm defending. To put it plainly, it's getting really old hearing people on this forum talk about morals in a video game where you run around murdering anything that looks at you funny. People play games as a form of escape, where they have the freedom to do things they wouldn't even consider doing in real life. Heck, that's the basic element of fun in PnP... doing things and acting differently than you would in real life!

Seriously, every week Quan comes on here and crits on a wall of text about how somebody did this or that and he didn't like it and will be blacklisting their guild or leaving party or some other poo. Like people have told him countless times, in this thread and others... just leave the party. Enough with the hall monitor morals police already! Let people be, they're here to have fun and enjoy the game as they see fit. If they're doing something you don't like: leave, use /ignore, and forget about it. If that doesn't work, well, I heard they were coming out with a new game, Churches and Choirs...

[Quanefel]

For those of us coming into the thread late, the "culprit" has outed himself in a post.

I might add that he did have a valid point... his contribution was more or less on the same level of the OP's (to be clear, I was in this raid as well). The OP brought his fighter in and was not tanking the reaver. So he stood and waited for his loot, much like the lowbie bard (and the other ~7 or so bored group members). <-------This statement is factually untrue.

And, since I was in the raid, I can indeed verify that someone (me) got a chuckle out of seeing that little level 4 bard. Quanefel did not cause me to chuckle. So... did the bard contribute more? :D

I do not have anything against you but I do not care for someone to obviously lie about me, at all. If you want to defend this person playing that 4th level toon, so be it. Yet when someone lies in a discussion, it shows that person who is making false statements IS in the wrong and the other side who is NOT making false statements is clearly in the right. Defending a friend is one thing, making up lies to defend a friend is a whole different thing altogether. To make the claims that a 4th lvl toon is contributing the same as a capped out 16th lvl fighter is absurd.

So I stood there and waited for my loot, much like the lowbie bard? Really, you want to come on the forums and make such an absurd statement? Are you going to next claim everyone else just "stood there waiting for their loot" too? No, why was I singled out as JUST standing there waiting for loot? Maybe because those other people would not take kindly at being insulted as I am by you claiming I stood around? Or maybe you wanted to try to get people reading this thread to have a negative opinion of me or my post in hopes they would ignore the poor gaming behavior of the person playing that 4th lvl toon in a raid?

See, the problem with people spreading misinformation is they assume others are simply so stupid as to not question the misinformation. Do you have such a low opinion of other players who might read this and might agree with me? How shameful. Really, shameful.

If people want to defend a friends actions, I am one who will not disagree with that. I do however feel uncomfortable having flat out lies being said in order to make an attempt at making look like a lair or invalidate what I write. If people want to defend themselves, do it with honor, with truthfulness and respect. Because you do it without those, you basically admit you were in the wrong. If this "person" was honest, they would do as they claimed they would do. This "person" talked to me privately the other night in-game, ranting at me about my post AND when I asked if they planned to come to the forums and defend themselves, they claimed they were going to. Not only that, this "person" claimed they were going to list ALL their toons, guild name and server name. Since this person failed to do as they said, speaks volumes of the faith she had in what others would think of their actions that I am talking about. This person fully believes they did nothing wrong, thinks that listing all their names that the rest of the players would on their side. Hardly is the case here, is it?

I even told this person that I was taking screen shots of the whole conversation. The reason why, is this right here. I had every reason to believe they would not be honest in telling others what they in fact did. This person proved me right, if it was not for the screen shots I would not have the much confidence in still talking about it right now. It would be my word against this other person. It is not for blackmail or to rat them out. It is for my safety in backing up what I have claimed. I have nothing against his person, their guild mates or friends. Yet, I do not appreciate my guild mates, my guild or me being personally attacked, mocked or made fun of for ME standing up for what I think is bad behavior. Everyone including this person wants to make it all about THEM when it is about THE behavior. Not that particular person. Why get so defensive over something they feel is not wrong? If others want to take this person's side out of blind loyalty, thats all on you. When all is said and done, I am STILL right in making this thread and how I went about it. If I wanted to, I could be a jerk and name names. Have I? Will I? No, because that is not my point. I think people need to seriously reread my Original post and understand what I am saying in it.

If people want to do this raid behavior, do it privately. Amongst like-minded friends or guild mates. It has NO place in a pug raid. How hard is that to understand, really? If people out there feel they do not need this hassle with making a pug raid, having people question poor behavior such as this, how about this idea? If you think you do not need us pugs, DONT MAKE PUG RAIDS?! You can go about with your friends/guild only raids and leave us to do our own thing. Ok? Thanks.

[Quanefel]

Actually, I "knew" no one in the raid, except perhaps by association (such as OP, since he was on his char that shares the same name as his forum account). You can verify this yourself if necessary, my character names are all listed below, and the bard in question has his listed. We aren't in any guilds together, and I don't run with him unless we fall into a pug together. So by your standards, my opinions are clearly unbiased.

Note that I have never put forth the argument that said bard did this for humor's sake. I've suggested fun things to do with level 4's, such as making them tank or greasing them. I've stated that I got a kick out of seeing him in there... the point being, to show that at least someone enjoyed his company and thought it was pretty funny.

I'm not sure why you think the motive is unclear to anyone. Obviously it was done for "greed", the humor is just a wonderful byproduct.

One thing you're way off on... what I'm defending. To put it plainly, it's getting really old hearing people on this forum talk about morals in a video game where you run around murdering anything that looks at you funny. People play games as a form of escape, where they have the freedom to do things they wouldn't even consider doing in real life. Heck, that's the basic element of fun in PnP... doing things and acting differently than you would in real life!

Seriously, every week Quan comes on here and crits on a wall of text about how somebody did this or that and he didn't like it and will be blacklisting their guild or leaving party or some other poo. Like people have told him countless times, in this thread and others... just leave the party. Enough with the hall monitor morals police already! Let people be, they're here to have fun and enjoy the game as they see fit. If they're doing something you don't like: leave, use /ignore, and forget about it. If that doesn't work, well, I heard they were coming out with a new game, Churches and Choirs...

Actually the bard in question STILL does not have all their toons, guild or server named listed anywhere in this thread. It was a nice attempt for someone else to pretend to be this person but I know otherwise. Honestly, I am not very surprised with their hiding. Even after this person told me what they were going to do, they still have yet to do it. This person ranting at me in-game seemed to be so confident in themselves, they believe by listing all their toon names, guild and server names that once everyone saw those names...everyone would be on their side basically. It has yet to happen.

You want to talk about how I or others come on the forums talking about ethics, morals or standards with-in the game as though it is the most horrible idea in the world. Yes, it is true people come to an on-line game to escape real life. Yet, real life ethics, morals and standards all still apply. If you or others like it or not, being in an on-line game does not give anyone the right to "Do as they please". There are lines we do not cross or things none of us should ever do. In-game or real life. To suggest those lines do not exist even in a game is absurd. I or others are not "hall monitoring" when we come on here to speak of poor behavior. It is more of people who lack morals, ethics or any sort of standards not liking others pointing that out within this game. We all want to have a great experience in-game. All of us. If some of us, like me want to spend a few minutes writing out in the forums about others behaving poorly, what does it matter to you or anyone else? If you do not behave poorly in the game, it does not apply to you. Forgive us for wanting others in game to simply respect other players and have a wonderful time in game like the rest of us want. Is that SO horrible?

Here is a moral question for you, see how you respond. If you had a friend who was a girl in game getting sexual, perverted tells from some random player, would you tell that friend to shut up and suck it up because like others have suggested, "Its just a game!". Would you suggest that real life morals or ethics do not apply? Would you tell this friend to not be so upset because....Its just a game. That person sending the nasty tells is simply having fun! How dare you take his fun away from him! Well, I think I know the answer and most people know what the answer would be.

What if you had your kids in the same room as you were playing and someone over voice chat was yelling, screaming and cussing like a Russian sailor. Would you stand there and find it acceptable behavior? Its just a game, that person is only having "fun", right? Morals, ethics and simple standards in real life do not apply. Anything is acceptable because, well...its just a game! Right? Anything goes because its not real life and the others playing with you are not "real" people.

People with poor people skills STILL think it is acceptable to treat other people in-game or over the Internet entirely, poorly. They justify it by saying, its the internet....nothing is real. Anything goes! Mindless the fact that other people are on, other people will read what you type, hear what you say over voice chat or witness your poor behavior as being real and coming from a real person, somewhere in the world. Because some people in the world lack morals, ethics or any kind of standards should never assume everyone else lacks those same qualities.

Does this mean those like me are all holier than thou and perfect? No, by no means are we. We are all human and make mistakes like anyone else. The difference is, we STRIVE to be better people. For our own sake, not for others. If we speak out against something that is wrong, that is a right we all share and can agree on. If we seem all preachy or whatnot, that is only one person's opinion. Not a fact. Yet to dismiss outright another person's view or feelings about a subject based off how you think of them, does not get us anywhere.

Even people I do not agree with on the forums, I talk to in-game with no hard feelings at all. These others and I agree that the forums are a place to vent and speak our minds, we do not take it into the game. You would be suprised at the people who others might think hate me or I hate them in the forums who I talk to respectfully within the game, even now. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts. I for one want people to say how they feel and honestly do NOT want everyone to agree with 100&#37; of what I say. How freaking boring would that be?

[Eudimio]

Guys, grab a backbone and drop group if the leader invites someone you don't want in your group.

Why are you trying to make something that is so easy so complicated?

[maddmatt70]

O.k. if the 4th level person ran this that one time, but I thnk she has run it more then once with her 4th level toon which although none of my business seems like it is about more then fun. I mean how much fun is it to run a 4th level char in a quest when it will die and not doing anything constructive or who knows maybe she will not like the 4th level toon later and delete it. There was a novelty notion but that inevitably wears off.. Just saying..

[Strakeln]

I do not have anything against you but I do not care for someone to obviously lie about me, at all. If you want to defend this person playing that 4th level toon, so be it. Yet when someone lies in a discussion, it shows that person who is making false statements IS in the wrong and the other side who is NOT making false statements is clearly in the right. Defending a friend is one thing, making up lies to defend a friend is a whole different thing altogether. To make the claims that a 4th lvl toon is contributing the same as a capped out 16th lvl fighter is absurd.

So I stood there and waited for my loot, much like the lowbie bard? Really, you want to come on the forums and make such an absurd statement? Are you going to next claim everyone else just "stood there waiting for their loot" too? No, why was I singled out as JUST standing there waiting for loot? Maybe because those other people would not take kindly at being insulted as I am by you claiming I stood around? Or maybe you wanted to try to get people reading this thread to have a negative opinion of me or my post in hopes they would ignore the poor gaming behavior of the person playing that 4th lvl toon in a raid?You're a piece of work. Everyone who has run the reaver knows that there's only a few people doing the work in there: the main tank, the cleric(s), and the caster(s). Everyone else spends most of their time standing about, possibly trying to curse an ele here or there. You were in on your tank, and not the main tank as I recall. So that leaves you doing what?

As to your second paragraph... did you actually read the text you quoted? I singled you out? Well, okay, let's take a look at what I actually typed... again, this is from the text you quoted but did not read: "So he stood and waited for his loot, much like the lowbie bard (and the other ~7 or so bored group members)." Oh yeah, I singled you out alright.

You're so quick to be offended that you don't even take the time to think about what you're quoting. I'm not saying you are there freeloading... like half or more of the people in the raid, if you don't have a job, your job is to stay out of the way and out of trouble. Hey, I was in there on my bard, which means my job was to cast balls and stay out of trouble... hardly a worthy contribution there either.


See, the problem with people spreading misinformation is they assume others are simply so stupid as to not question the misinformation. Well I guess it's a good thing I cleared up the misinformation you're trying to spread with your response, isn't it.


If people want to do this raid behavior, do it privately. Amongst like-minded friends or guild mates. It has NO place in a pug raid. How hard is that to understand, really? If people out there feel they do not need this hassle with making a pug raid, having people question poor behavior such as this, how about this idea? If you think you do not need us pugs, DONT MAKE PUG RAIDS?! You can go about with your friends/guild only raids and leave us to do our own thing. Ok? Thanks.How about this: you don't join groups that bother you, and leave groups that add party members that rub you the wrong way. Myself and the rest of the server will continue to form groups as we see fit. You are free to not join/leave as you see fit. Instead of trying to tell others what to do, work on telling yourself what to do.

[Strakeln]

Actually the bard in question STILL does not have all their toons, guild or server named listed anywhere in this thread. It was a nice attempt for someone else to pretend to be this person but I know otherwise. Honestly, I am not very surprised with their hiding. Even after this person told me what they were going to do, they still have yet to do it. This person ranting at me in-game seemed to be so confident in themselves, they believe by listing all their toon names, guild and server names that once everyone saw those names...everyone would be on their side basically. It has yet to happen.Well, I guess that is further proof that I don't know the guy, as I thought the person posting above was the bard in question.

That said, you act surprised that this person doesn't want to come on the forums and bother with this? Some of us may have fun arguing on teh intarwebs (guilty), but others recognize the collosal waste of time it actually is. That saying that arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics (you're still ********) is remarkably true. Not to mention that your invitation is essentially "come on over to your blacklisting party!" Regardless of who is right or wrong, there's nothing to gain but spots on ignore lists by doing so (for both sides, I'm sure).


You want to talk about how I or others come on the forums talking about ethics, morals or standards with-in the game as though it is the most horrible idea in the world. Yes, it is true people come to an on-line game to escape real life. Yet, real life ethics, morals and standards all still apply. If you or others like it or not, being in an on-line game does not give anyone the right to "Do as they please". There are lines we do not cross or things none of us should ever do. In-game or real life. To suggest those lines do not exist even in a game is absurd. I or others are not "hall monitoring" when we come on here to speak of poor behavior. It is more of people who lack morals, ethics or any sort of standards not liking others pointing that out within this game. We all want to have a great experience in-game. All of us. If some of us, like me want to spend a few minutes writing out in the forums about others behaving poorly, what does it matter to you or anyone else? If you do not behave poorly in the game, it does not apply to you. Forgive us for wanting others in game to simply respect other players and have a wonderful time in game like the rest of us want. Is that SO horrible?You're right, there are some lines you don't cross. For example, threatening someone's life over voice chat might result in a visit from your local friendly police service. Now, thinking critically for a second, one should be able to see the difference here: you can threaten a person's character's life, but not the person's life... why is that? It's something I'd consider obvious: you're crossing the line between game and real life.

The simple fact of the matter is, ethics, morals, and standards are different for in-game activities. You'd think the suicide rate in Stormreach would make that rather obvious...


Here is a moral question for you, see how you respond. If you had a friend who was a girl in game getting sexual, perverted tells from some random player, would you tell that friend to shut up and suck it up because like others have suggested, "Its just a game!". Would you suggest that real life morals or ethics do not apply? Would you tell this friend to not be so upset because....Its just a game. That person sending the nasty tells is simply having fun! How dare you take his fun away from him! Well, I think I know the answer and most people know what the answer would be.Like my example above, this is crossing the line between game and real life. Now, would I tell said female friend to "suck it up"? No, I would tell her to not party with that person, use /ignore, and report if necessary. Which is pretty much the same advice I've given to you.


What if you had your kids in the same room as you were playing and someone over voice chat was yelling, screaming and cussing like a Russian sailor. Would you stand there and find it acceptable behavior? Its just a game, that person is only having "fun", right? Morals, ethics and simple standards in real life do not apply. Anything is acceptable because, well...its just a game! Right? Anything goes because its not real life and the others playing with you are not "real" people. I'd lower the voice chat, put on headphones, or leave the party. Kids on my end are my responsibility, not the guy I've never met on the other end of the internet who doesn't even know that said kids exist. Even if he does know me, the ears on my end fall under my responsibility, not his.


People with poor people skills STILL think it is acceptable to treat other people in-game or over the Internet entirely, poorly. They justify it by saying, its the internet....nothing is real. Anything goes! Mindless the fact that other people are on, other people will read what you type, hear what you say over voice chat or witness your poor behavior as being real and coming from a real person, somewhere in the world. Because some people in the world lack morals, ethics or any kind of standards should never assume everyone else lacks those same qualities.I thought this was a nice spot to point out that it is actually impossible to lack morals, ethics, or standards (sorta like Aetheism is considered a form of religion). What you're really saying can be summed up as follows: "there are people out there in the world who don't follow MY moral/ethical code". Which is sorta what I'm getting at here: stop trying to push your morals/ethics/standards on others. It's not your place, and it's actually pretty annoying... both in-game and in real life.


Does this mean those like me are all holier than thou and perfect? No, by no means are we. We are all human and make mistakes like anyone else. The difference is, we STRIVE to be better people. For our own sake, not for others. If we speak out against something that is wrong, that is a right we all share and can agree on. If we seem all preachy or whatnot, that is only one person's opinion. Not a fact. Yet to dismiss outright another person's view or feelings about a subject based off how you think of them, does not get us anywhere. My issue with your threads like this is that you're not just sharing your thoughts and opinions... you're running a thinly veiled attempt at blacklisting. Oh, sure, you didn't mention any names... but tell me, what exactly do you plan to do with those screenshots you took? Oh, right, they were for your desktop background, right? You even mention in one of your posts that you told the guy you were taking screenies of the conversation... now, what might that imply? That if he didn't show up on the forums, you'd out him. So you're trying to blackmail someone into attending their own blacklisting party...

A far cry from simply sharing your thoughts and ideas, Quan.


Even people I do not agree with on the forums, I talk to in-game with no hard feelings at all. These others and I agree that the forums are a place to vent and speak our minds, we do not take it into the game. You would be suprised at the people who others might think hate me or I hate them in the forums who I talk to respectfully within the game, even now. We all have our own opinions and our own thoughts. I for one want people to say how they feel and honestly do NOT want everyone to agree with 100% of what I say. How freaking boring would that be?Here is where you and I more or less agree (this may be a first). I encourage you to share your thoughts and opinions on these forums, but your blacklisting party threads are growing a bit long in tooth.

[ShadowHand2]

You're a piece of work. Everyone who has run the reaver knows that there's only a few people doing the work in there: the main tank, the cleric(s), and the caster(s). Everyone else spends most of their time standing about, possibly trying to curse an ele here or there. You were in on your tank, and not the main tank as I recall. So that leaves you doing what?

As to your second paragraph... did you actually read the text you quoted? I singled you out? Well, okay, let's take a look at what I actually typed... again, this is from the text you quoted but did not read: "So he stood and waited for his loot, much like the lowbie bard (and the other ~7 or so bored group members)." Oh yeah, I singled you out alright.

You're so quick to be offended that you don't even take the time to think about what you're quoting. I'm not saying you are there freeloading... like half or more of the people in the raid, if you don't have a job, your job is to stay out of the way and out of trouble. Hey, I was in there on my bard, which meany my job was to cast balls and stay out of trouble... hardly a worthy contribution there either.

Well I guess it's a good thing I cleared up the misinformation you're trying to spread with your response, isn't it.

How about this: you don't join groups that bother you, and leave groups that add party members that rub you the wrong way. Myself and the rest of the server will continue to form groups as we see fit. You are free to not join/leave as you see fit. Instead of trying to tell others what to do, work on telling yourself what to do.

You offer a few suggestions for Q on what he should do or not do......where is the same notion extended to the 4th lv bard? Any thought I changing thier behavior or actions? Not once have you mentioned what the 4th lv bard should do....only what Q should have done.
"Instead of trying to tell others what to do, work on telling yourself what to do."

You have no problem before this statement in fact offering a few suggestions(telling) Q ? So, which is it? We are all allow free-will and choices or we are allowed BUT Q? I think your missing the plot mate that Q has the right like all others on the forum to voice thier concerns as well as questions others game morality. True, it is only a game.....does not excuse you or anyone else from acting human and mature enough to have that same courtesy extend to you/others? It is a game, but our actions reflect the ugliness people act when no one is watching or is filtered. The unfiltered escuse people ues of that this is a game and as such are not bound by normal social standards. Someone acts like a jerk in the game or what not, still is no reason to continue to act like they do. That is an example not implied to just this thread but in general in that players need to treat others like they wish to be treated, plain and simple.
It is funny how when you question others in general, the morality or like subject....that even if it is a general observation.....you get people getting very offended on something that is not about them per say. It is the guilt that they hide that makes them react in this manner. People do bad things and hope the internet can cover thier actions by using it as an excuse. In the dark, it is you who has to live with being vile or amoral, sugarcoat others all you want. You have to live with yourself in the end.

[Strakeln]

You offer a few suggestions for Q on what he should do or not do......where is the same notion extended to the 4th lv bard? Any thought I changing thier behavior or actions? Not once have you mentioned what the 4th lv bard should do....only what Q should have done.
"Instead of trying to tell others what to do, work on telling yourself what to do."

You have no problem before this statement in fact offering a few suggestions(telling) Q ? So, which is it? We are all allow free-will and choices or we are allowed BUT Q? I think your missing the plot mate that Q has the right like all others on the forum to voice thier concerns as well as questions others game morality. True, it is only a game.....does not excuse you or anyone else from acting human and mature enough to have that same courtesy extend to you/others? It is a game, but our actions reflect the ugliness people act when no one is watching or is filtered. The unfiltered escuse people ues of that this is a game and as such are not bound by normal social standards. Someone acts like a jerk in the game or what not, still is no reason to continue to act like they do. That is an example not implied to just this thread but in general in that players need to treat others like they wish to be treated, plain and simple.
It is funny how when you question others in general, the morality or like subject....that even if it is a general observation.....you get people getting very offended on something that is not about them per say. It is the guilt that they hide that makes them react in this manner. People do bad things and hope the internet can cover thier actions by using it as an excuse. In the dark, it is you who has to live with being vile or amoral, sugarcoat others all you want. You have to live with yourself in the end.Relax. It's a game.

Regarding Quan, let me sum up the argument for you:

Quan: Run your pugs my way
Me: Mind your own business

I'm sorry you can't understand the drastic difference between a fantasy game and real life, and the associated differences in ethics/morals/standards. Like mentioned above... suicide is clearly a moral/ethical issue (assisted suicide, anyone?), yet most of us kill our own characters 2-3 times a night. Obviously, there must be a difference here.

I'm guessing that the 4th level bard isn't losing any sleep over his actions.

[blaylock_avalone]

Ok here comes the silly level 4 again (now 6). I am not hiding and I have responded to the post. All of my alts are there...................maybe some people just don't see good??? My post is on page 3 you can see it there.

Wanted to answer some questions people ask lol. Somebody said maybe I just tagged along in the pre-flag quests on normal and didn't do anything blah blah blah. You weren't there, it didn't affect you in any way. I did the quest on elite.....................maybe had most kills on 3 of all 4 but that doesn't really matter................I am not a plat farmer, and they don't bother me eigther heh if somebody wants to buy plat I can't do anything about it. Do what makes you happy. People say that I am greedy, well maybe I am, but who cares? Am I stealing from somebody? Don't tell me you never looted a chest till you ransacked it, don't tell me you don't do loot runs 'cause I will laugh at your face. Then somebody said that I haven't done it just one time and your
point is what? Did it affect you in any way? Did I ask for the raid item that dropped? Maybe I just wanna get to 20 proly sometime? Same person said that I might not like my toon and delete her.............well so what if I do so? Don't tell me you never deleted a toon or even a capped one with raid loots??? Should we go after you lol???

So maybe the only thing I would admit I am guilty of is joining a pug and do the raid. Oh well kill me hahah. They saw my level. Nobody complained about it. But why if you are so unhappy with it maybe you should stand and say something instead of wasting time in forums:) If anybody had said something I would have left .But nobody did so :) It is too late now isnt it:)

And after all there will be always 2 sides. Some people won't care and some people will. Nothing can make everybody happy. So after all I am stil having fun reading all the posts going over and over at the same thing hahah. We should learn to let it go and have FUN.

Don't forget why you play:Have fun:)

Aussie, Aussiee,R ockstarr, Marylen, Smilley, Revolution, Songblast and cute ex level 4 Lapdance (yes I leveled up for a big surprise to some people and no I am not gonna delete her any time soon:)

[ShadowHand2]

Relax. It's a game.

Regarding Quan, let me sum up the argument for you:

Quan: Run your pugs my way
Me: Mind your own business

I'm sorry you can't understand the drastic difference between a fantasy game and real life, and the associated differences in ethics/morals/standards. Like mentioned above... suicide is clearly a moral/ethical issue (assisted suicide, anyone?), yet most of us kill our own characters 2-3 times a night. Obviously, there must be a difference here.

I'm guessing that the 4th level bard isn't losing any sleep over his actions.

HAHA
Nice, the relax side statement....as if the person (myself) is getting crazy...out of hand.....workedup....lame-o statement. Now you are the comic relief. Please point to any statement where I have zero clue I am playing, that somehow I am unable to NOT tell the difference between real world and fantasy game world? I know full well I play a fantasy world game....you however seem to dwell in junior high school with the silly snide remarks. I never asked you to sum any argument up for me, thanks all the same:) Besides, your summing up part had nothing to do with anything other then to take more pop shots to reduce the OP as someone just being silly or whatever "point" your un-informed mind was getting at. The ploy you used to make it appear I have mixed the concepts of ethics/morals/standards looks a bit far reaching on your part. Did you even look that you compared suicide (and the morality of it) with the game? Who has lost the plot now mate? Your now mixing the real world with a fake fantasy death as if the 2 are on the same level. Why even are you going in that direction at all? Oh, but I understand this tactic. You have nothing to add as what the OP was alluding to and more so your redirecting this thread to child-like tactics.

I will sum this up for you so perhaps some of it lingers in the mind longer then a goldfish:

People, no matter real world or not need to see that acting dirty, sneaky, deceitful, etc..is ugly. We may not be able to see each other face to face, but how you act, what you say or try to convey is seen or experienced by others who have no real choice when people act badly. Sure, people can drop group or whatever. However, people do not act this way right off the bat and even if they do most of tend to give them perhaps a 2nd or 3rd chance in the quest, sometimes less then that. Bad behavior is not something that can be taking back. Acting badly to others can not be returned to sender. We can pick to ignore them in the future, but seeing players have more then one toon to play on. Odds are you will run with the village idiot more then once and not even know it.

However, we all know that when we as players hid behind a persona of our avatar, the bad seeds think that this is a free ticket to act like noobs to others and that it seems ok by them. For, who is going to call them into check? Maturity goes a long way, look into it.:)

[ShadowHand2]

Ok here comes the silly level 4 again (now 6). I am not hiding and I have responded to the post. All of my alts are there...................maybe some people just don't see good??? My post is on page 3 you can see it there.

Wanted to answer some questions people ask lol. Somebody said maybe I just tagged along in the pre-flag quests on normal and didn't do anything blah blah blah. You weren't there, it didn't affect you in any way. I did the quest on elite.....................maybe had most kills on 3 of all 4 but that doesn't really matter................I am not a plat farmer, and they don't bother me eigther heh if somebody wants to buy plat I can't do anything about it. Do what makes you happy. People say that I am greedy, well maybe I am, but who cares? Am I stealing from somebody? Don't tell me you never looted a chest till you ransacked it, don't tell me you don't do loot runs 'cause I will laugh at your face. Then somebody said that I haven't done it just one time and your
point is what? Did it affect you in any way? Did I ask for the raid item that dropped? Maybe I just wanna get to 20 proly sometime? Same person said that I might not like my toon and delete her.............well so what if I do so? Don't tell me you never deleted a toon or even a capped one with raid loots??? Should we go after you lol???

So maybe the only thing I would admit I am guilty of is joining a pug and do the raid. Oh well kill me hahah. They saw my level. Nobody complained about it. But why if you are so unhappy with it maybe you should stand and say something instead of wasting time in forums:) If anybody had said something I would have left .But nobody did so :) It is too late now isnt it:)

And after all there will be always 2 sides. Some people won't care and some people will. Nothing can make everybody happy. So after all I am stil having fun reading all the posts going over and over at the same thing hahah. We should learn to let it go and have FUN.

Don't forget why you play:Have fun:)

Aussie, Aussiee,R ockstarr, Marylen, Smilley, Revolution, Songblast and cute ex level 4 Lapdance (yes I leveled up for a big surprise to some people and no I am not gonna delete her any time soon:)

Nice,
You pose your own version of questions in way so as to not really answer them at all.

For instance: "Somebody said maybe I just tagged along in the pre-flag quests on normal and didn't do anything blah blah blah"

In response: "You weren't there, it didn't affect you in any way. I did the quest on elite.....................maybe had most kills on 3 of all 4 but that doesn't really matter?"

This continuous throughout your post and not adding one point other then you do not care, do what makes YOU happy (regardless of others) or they saw you but NO ONE COMPLIAN?.....really? You can sit here and type out this with a straight face and say you know personally the others in the raid did not question or complain the deal? You can say with 100% certainty that no one cared and that all knew you was 4th? Why did anyone make the effort to state after the buffs that you were 4th lv? If everyone knew then that would not have been needed right? Just because the others you ran the raid with did not send you a tell personally does not mean that it is implied that that means no one cared. That is in fact abit ego-centric to think that.

How do I dare ask are you comparing ransacks on normal quests to raids? Apples and oranges, as far as I recall normal quest do not tend to drop raid loot and such...hence the term RAID loot.

Listen, I understand this greed factor that seems to be radiating from you seems to stem from the fact that I am pretty sure all you do is raids. A few quests here and there perhaps to flag for the raids, but overall odds are you mostly do raids. That is your choice, do whatever you wish as far as I am concerned. Do not however say no one cared what you did so it must have been ok to do. Your under the illusion since you do not care about anything anyways as nothing bothers you if it does not effect you personal is a bit selfish.

Your projecting your care-free attitude on others who group with you as if they should live by your standards as well. Did you ask them about it? Was it posted in the LFM of such matter as to be seen clear as day? Please do not tell me they should have know either. When people look at an lfm that was posted I am sure the lvs for raid was set at appropriate levels why would they take a closer look at the fact that a 4th lv( and 9th level from what I am told) was in group or was coming to the group? You have no right to put the burden on others for not knowing before hand you was in or was coming into group. Making it on others for not knowing when they had no reason to think a 4th lv was coming or in group is again selfish.

"We should learn to let it go and have FUN." .....problem solved then I guess, flick of the wrists and matter/discussion over with?
Joy, I am glad I do not go on raids much.....your type is one of the many reasons I do not raid much. I would rather help new players out, help others with favor or have fun doing normal quests because I like the small numbers and teamwork of it all. That is me though, selfish to the end:)

[AlariaTheAngry]

Here is a moral question for you, see how you respond. If you had a friend who was a girl in game getting sexual, perverted tells from some random player, would you tell that friend to shut up and suck it up because like others have suggested, "Its just a game!". Would you suggest that real life morals or ethics do not apply? Would you tell this friend to not be so upset because....Its just a game. That person sending the nasty tells is simply having fun! How dare you take his fun away from him! Well, I think I know the answer and most people know what the answer would be.

What if you had your kids in the same room as you were playing and someone over voice chat was yelling, screaming and cussing like a Russian sailor. Would you stand there and find it acceptable behavior? Its just a game, that person is only having "fun", right? Morals, ethics and simple standards in real life do not apply. Anything is acceptable because, well...its just a game! Right? Anything goes because its not real life and the others playing with you are not "real" people.

Reply to Situation# 1:
Sorry your offened and mistreated, report his name to turbine as well as any alts you have gotten tells from, /squelch add (name) to any you remember off hand, and always do this if anyone crosses this or other such lines. there is no reason for you to feel uncomfortable in a game, so lets take care of it in the right channels :)

p.s have actually had this conv with a friend before, giving almost identical answer +/- a few friend like comforting things that were added to try and help ease the stress.

Reply to situation#2: Sorry guys, got kids in room/easily offended house mate ect, gonna be off voice chat please type to me :) thanks alot. :)

p.s or theres still that handy dandy little function /squelch the offensive person. No offense to any of the kid having folks out there, have young ones as well as easily offended people in my home from time to time as well, but you cant actually expect someone else to handle this for you. Its inconcievalbe to expect a cusser/adult humor/inuendo using person in their 20's-50's and even higher to change long time behavior simply because you want to have speakers on or headset too loud. I have had to turn down, mute, squelch temporarily and even leave groups that were too fully composed of these people to be responsible for my rea life and protect the people on MY side of the screen from being harmed or insulted. Its not someone elses job to keep your friends/family/kids safe and protected....Would you hand your toddler to a stranger in the grocery store and say " Hey i need to run to aisle nine can ya watch her for a sec?" and expect them to keep your child safe and protected would you? then why expect strangers to do it in game :/ sorry if that offends anyone, not meant to, really just trying putting mho out there so ya understand if ya run with me i wont be constantly reprimanding a full grown adult for saying bad words or having an off sense of humor. Public is public, cant change that in game anymore than you can change a person in the post office saying a bad word two feet ahead of you and your child in line....its just a fact of life :/
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________


(#1)I am sure anyone who have double checked if it was listed as a 4-16 raid. So please don't act like we are all idiots for seeing an lfm that was not there to begin with.

(#2)What you view as funny or humorous is not always something other people would find funny. We are all individuals and have our own sense of humor, it is arrogance for one person to ASSUME their idea of what is humorous is humorous to everyone.

(#3)One final thing to consider, if this toon was not there for raid loot, explain to everyone why they even bothered to walk to the raid chest afterwords and grab their loot? If it was all for humor and not for any loot at all, why even bother to look inside the chest? If it was for only humor, they would have released when they died or left the quest once it was over. Walking over to grab loot that is being claimed was not why they were in their seems a bit dishonest to some people.


reply to #1:
Did not at any point mention blacklisting if I remember correctly, see blacklisting is a funny thing, you have to actually worry about accidently running with that person to black list. I tend to READ lfms before i join, and if memory serves me right most times (and ive been in nearly all on some toon or another) the mentioned lvl 4 runs raids they are in first two/three people to join including being leader of at least one i can remember...kinda obvious theres a lvl 4 in group dontcha think? reading lfms might help a bit :)

i see this happen alot, have even done it myself a few times not realizing i was cutting out parts of the convo thats was need to fully understand it. Never at any point did I say you or anyone else was an idiot for not reading lvls in lfm, i simply said reading lfms might help a bit in this situation....smilley and all with no wink or smart alecness attached... And my comment was actually about blacklisting if you read the first sentence. Was saying i read lfms for that exact reason, to avoid running with people/lvls/guild ect that i choose to avoid at that time. I read the lfms closely before joining to make sure not only will I not be insulted/anoyed/put off and generally have my game play ruined during that brief time but so i dont group with people i know have an aversion to running with me (they might possibly accept one of my alts by accident so on and so forth) to also keep their game play from being hindered and/or ruined. Still not seeing how you pulled calling people idiots from what i posted but apparently its somehow implied, to any i made feel i was calling them stupid/iliterate I apologize and can only hope you now understand that is in no way what I was trying to do.

Reply to #2:
Stll disagree about the funny though, i think even an insta death can be hilarious if in the right situation....

Did not in anyway say everyone was laughing, did not in any way say YOU MUST AGREE WITH MY SENSE OF HUMOR! did not see arrogance in my post on that topic at least....however you did so please understand i didnt say your sense of humor is wrong and mine is the only right one...simple stated i disagreed. thought disagreeing was ok, considering we all have "different opinions" therfore disagreeing is natual but guess im wrong, sorry for the arrogance then.....


Reply to #3: Ok yea she looted the three chests.... who doesnt loot a chest from a quest they have done? How is looting a chest for sellable/ giftable loot such a bad thing? dont we all do it? yea ok so she was lvl 4 and got what max lvl 8 chest? even getting a max lvl 16 chest she can do that all on her own with any of the multitude of toons she has, but why just completely skip a vendor foder chest if its there...heck i still loot chests in favor runs for +1 gear and +2 stat items...it all helps the scroll cost no matter how small. SO why is this toon wrong for looting gear that had their name on it? is it wrong when I loot a chest in reaver if i die three minutes into after he does his stupid three blasts in a row thing? should I then leave and recall out, skip chests and xp simply because I died? because if thats the rule were working on implementing half the server will be broke in a month from repairs/wand/scroll/pots bill including me if we cant loot to sell if we die in a quest...i die, big deal...im not a perma death toon, never will be because i know i die...but darn skippy i loot my chests, and i see no reason not to. once again just so no further confusion like on last few replies this is not me in anyway saying your wrong if you think it shouldnt be looted, your wrong if you disagree with me....this is simply my own opinion. hopefully that covered any slander/insults/arrogance but if not sorry yet again.... *sigh*

[Quanefel]

Well, I guess that is further proof that I don't know the guy, as I thought the person posting above was the bard in question.

That said, you act surprised that this person doesn't want to come on the forums and bother with this? Some of us may have fun arguing on teh intarwebs (guilty), but others recognize the collosal waste of time it actually is. That saying that arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics (you're still ********) is remarkably true. Not to mention that your invitation is essentially "come on over to your blacklisting party!" Regardless of who is right or wrong, there's nothing to gain but spots on ignore lists by doing so (for both sides, I'm sure).

You're right, there are some lines you don't cross. For example, threatening someone's life over voice chat might result in a visit from your local friendly police service. Now, thinking critically for a second, one should be able to see the difference here: you can threaten a person's character's life, but not the person's life... why is that? It's something I'd consider obvious: you're crossing the line between game and real life.

The simple fact of the matter is, ethics, morals, and standards are different for in-game activities. You'd think the suicide rate in Stormreach would make that rather obvious...

Like my example above, this is crossing the line between game and real life. Now, would I tell said female friend to "suck it up"? No, I would tell her to not party with that person, use /ignore, and report if necessary. Which is pretty much the same advice I've given to you.

I'd lower the voice chat, put on headphones, or leave the party. Kids on my end are my responsibility, not the guy I've never met on the other end of the internet who doesn't even know that said kids exist. Even if he does know me, the ears on my end fall under my responsibility, not his.

I thought this was a nice spot to point out that it is actually impossible to lack morals, ethics, or standards (sorta like Aetheism is considered a form of religion). What you're really saying can be summed up as follows: "there are people out there in the world who don't follow MY moral/ethical code". Which is sorta what I'm getting at here: stop trying to push your morals/ethics/standards on others. It's not your place, and it's actually pretty annoying... both in-game and in real life.

My issue with your threads like this is that you're not just sharing your thoughts and opinions... you're running a thinly veiled attempt at blacklisting. Oh, sure, you didn't mention any names... but tell me, what exactly do you plan to do with those screenshots you took? Oh, right, they were for your desktop background, right? You even mention in one of your posts that you told the guy you were taking screenies of the conversation... now, what might that imply? That if he didn't show up on the forums, you'd out him. So you're trying to blackmail someone into attending their own blacklisting party...

A far cry from simply sharing your thoughts and ideas, Quan.

Here is where you and I more or less agree (this may be a first). I encourage you to share your thoughts and opinions on these forums, but your blacklisting party threads are growing a bit long in tooth.

Well, I'd love to respond to all of this and this and other posts you made but sad fact is, you can not be honest or truthful. Twisting everything I write around to make it something it is not, does not work for me. Maybe others tolerate you doing that, not me. Later.

[bobbryan2]

So Q, you keep saying that this kind of behavoir has no place in a pug. Maybe it has no place in YOUR pug, but there's no reason it couldn't have a place in any other pug.

If you don't like how someone else runs their pugs, please run their own. Don't come on the forums and try to tell the rest of us how to play the game. Taking a lvl 4 into the quest is NOT a big deal. Just get over and accept that some people feel differently about things than you.

[Aspenor]

Usually I am a champion of good behavior in DDO, and well...I only have this to say on this topic....

Why does this matter?

[Strakeln]

Did you even look that you compared suicide (and the morality of it) with the game? Who has lost the plot now mate? Your now mixing the real world with a fake fantasy death as if the 2 are on the same level. I'm glad to see you got my point that they are not on the same level. Now if you expand that a bit, you would understand that the same exact thing applies to other so-called moral or ethical issues... they are not on the same level as RL, and therefore are different.


I will sum this up for you so perhaps some of it lingers in the mind longer then a goldfish:

People, no matter real world or not need to see that acting dirty, sneaky, deceitful, etc..is ugly. We may not be able to see each other face to face, but how you act, what you say or try to convey is seen or experienced by others who have no real choice when people act badly. Sure, people can drop group or whatever. However, people do not act this way right off the bat and even if they do most of tend to give them perhaps a 2nd or 3rd chance in the quest, sometimes less then that. Bad behavior is not something that can be taking back. Acting badly to others can not be returned to sender. We can pick to ignore them in the future, but seeing players have more then one toon to play on. Odds are you will run with the village idiot more then once and not even know it.You do realize that /ignore or /squelch is account-wide, right? You ignore one toon, you ignore all toons on that account.


However, we all know that when we as players hid behind a persona of our avatar, the bad seeds think that this is a free ticket to act like noobs to others and that it seems ok by them. For, who is going to call them into check? Maturity goes a long way, look into it.:)Last I checked, the only people who thought that insults regarding maturity had any effect were those of the age to be concerned about their own maturity.

Really, Shadow, we're not talking about complicated topics here. A quick philosophy 101 class might enlighten you on the reality of ethics and morals... more specifically, their source and application.

[Strakeln]

Well, I'd love to respond to all of this and this and other posts you made but sad fact is, you can not be honest or truthful. Twisting everything I write around to make it something it is not, does not work for me. Maybe others tolerate you doing that, not me. Later.Instead of calling me a liar over and over, why don't you actually explain where I am lying? My guess is that you're saying you contributed to the raid in some way, which I don't doubt. Are you trying to say you were the main tank? It's possible, if I'm not on my cleric I don't pay careful attention to who is near the reaver. If I have a fact wrong, correct me, and I will admit to my confusion.

Anyone who knows me will tell you this: I am an honest individual, at times brutally so. However, if your only response to people who disagree with you is "liar!", then you are correct: we have nothing left to discuss.

[Fanabeam]

Usually I am a champion of good behavior in DDO, and well...I only have this to say on this topic....

Why does this matter?

QFT

[Mindspat]

This seems like a classic text book exploit.

Does this mean there's going to be a lvl requirement to access quests in the future or just for the Reaver?

[rimble]

Usually I am a champion of good behavior in DDO, and well...I only have this to say on this topic....

Why does this matter?

Right. If a fellow Level 16 pulls something they won't give to me or a Level 2 pulls something they won't give to me it's all the same to me. I grab my stupid mnemonic pot out of the warded chest (seriously, last night, Elite Reaver, mnemonic pot and plat) and try again in 3 days. I'd prefer if the spots were full of level 14+ characters that could use what they pull, but if those spots won't fill, so what.

[ArkoHighStar]

This seems like a classic text book exploit.

Does this mean there's going to be a lvl requirement to access quests in the future or just for the Reaver?

Exploit not really, any raid loot gained is useless till lvl13-14 so they gain nothing by doing the quest so early, we really have no proof either way that the adjusting of the loot table for level affects raid loot, and until someone provides a screenshot we won't know. So really the only reason would be trying to get a +3 tome either by looting it or buying it from someone who pulled one, which just seems like a waste of time, because if you can't successfully level your character without one, then you need to reroll. In reality the only tome that has side benefits by being used early is an int tome for extra skill points as you level, all other tomes have the same benefit at end game whether you used it at lvl 1 or lvl 16


The only thing I find annoying is the last minute inclusion by the raid leader, after people have expended resources etc. buffing. It's simply bad manners and it smacks of something planned by the raid leader. While it is true that most people stand around in the reaver, the simple fact is they can at least take over for one of the appointed roles if something happens, a lvl 4 anything is simply dead weight and is basically getting a free shot at loot.

[Quanefel]

So Q, you keep saying that this kind of behavoir has no place in a pug. Maybe it has no place in YOUR pug, but there's no reason it couldn't have a place in any other pug.

If you don't like how someone else runs their pugs, please run their own. Don't come on the forums and try to tell the rest of us how to play the game. Taking a lvl 4 into the quest is NOT a big deal. Just get over and accept that some people feel differently about things than you.

It is a bit hypocritical to suggest that I accept what other people feel yet within your same statement, go on to tell ME what to do or how I am not allowed to express my feelings on the matter. I always find it amusing for those who talk about people having the right to have an opinion, only feel that way if everyone has THEIR opinion.

[suitepotato]

Some things to do to prevent lowbies tagging along without adversely affecting the outcome:
Institute a secondary spell-failure chance for healing and especially rez'ing based on number of levels of difference between cleric and the patient. A level 16 cleric at the shroud would be totally effective against a level 16 fighter. Totally ineffective helping a level 4 rogue.
Require a limit on number of deaths and subsequent resurrections before the quest completes based on number of levels of difference between cleric and the patient. Since the max difference is fifteen, make sixteen the maximum times a cleric can rez a level sixteen cohort. One less time per level of difference. At level one lowbie, they lose fifteen times so the level 16 cleric can rez the level 1 hanger on only once. The higher the level you are, the more you can be rez'd. This only makes sense as by 16 your toon should have a lot of experience with dying and getting rez'd.
Instate XP reward loss based on deaths and resurrections and again make it based on the difference between clerics and the patients. Every time you get rez'd, you get 2.5&#37; less XP on completion per level of difference between you and the cleric who rez'd you if you weren't already getting zero due to the power level system.

OR
Instate XP loss like the old death penalty but only if you get rez'd and not by coming back to life at a shrine. Make it 2.5% of total XP from completion per level of difference.There's a lot of ways to make it counterproductive to pull this kind of thing. It should NOT be done in pugs and were my own guildies to run a pug that way I'd have a few words about it with them. It should ONLY be done in an all-guildie run when everyone knows that it is being done up front. Worse than a pug, would be an inter-guild event as the guild that does it makes themselves look very rude in the eyes of the other one.

Levelling on a casual play basis can still be done inside of a month and then you can run level appropriate raids all you want. For crying out loud, people of level six regularly beat Stormcleave's boss on elite without destroying mephits or the elemental.

[blaylock_avalone]

Nice,
You pose your own version of questions in way so as to not really answer them at all.

For instance: "Somebody said maybe I just tagged along in the pre-flag quests on normal and didn't do anything blah blah blah"

In response: "You weren't there, it didn't affect you in any way. I did the quest on elite.....................maybe had most kills on 3 of all 4 but that doesn't really matter?"

This continuous throughout your post and not adding one point other then you do not care, do what makes YOU happy (regardless of others) or they saw you but NO ONE COMPLIAN?.....really? You can sit here and type out this with a straight face and say you know personally the others in the raid did not question or complain the deal? You can say with 100% certainty that no one cared and that all knew you was 4th? Why did anyone make the effort to state after the buffs that you were 4th lv? If everyone knew then that would not have been needed right? Just because the others you ran the raid with did not send you a tell personally does not mean that it is implied that that means no one cared. That is in fact abit ego-centric to think that.


Well yes that did make me happy, how does that make me selfish? I have no idea. I did not make anybody to join against their own will and after all why would they tag along not for one quest but for 3? Hmm I must have been very bad for people to stick to the group..............And then if you really read my post I said that nobody complained when I joined. Which is a fact you can check your screenshots lol. Obviously leader didn't mind since he took me. And really if you cared why didn't you say something in party no need to send tells........................I do not have any skill points spend in mind reading yet............Maybe in the future. I also said if somebody would have said something I would have left. Does that make me selfish hm I guess so if this is what you say!



Actually the bard in question STILL does not have all their toons, guild or server named listed anywhere in this thread. It was a nice attempt for someone else to pretend to be this person but I know otherwise. Honestly, I am not very surprised with their hiding. Even after this person told me what they were going to do, they still have yet to do it. This person ranting at me in-game seemed to be so confident in themselves, they believe by listing all their toon names, guild and server names that once everyone saw those names...everyone would be on their side basically. It has yet to happen.

Why send me a private message saying, and I quote "Ugh! Why did you list all your alts? I told *** to tell you it would NOT be a good idea. Yes, defend yourself if you want. But listing it all opens you up to possible attacks on the forums. Trust me, it does. They are viscious if you do not agree with some of them. Very few people on there actually like the idea of freedom of speech...unless you agree with them. Then they love you.... "

First, you tell me I am hiding when in fact I listed my alts. And when I listed my alts, you tell me that it's not a good idea? You sound like you are protecting me when you are the very first person to attack me. Another thing, about these people that are "vicious if you do not agree with some of them", are you referring to yourself???

Hm go figure out people talking about morals and such things ...

[bobbryan2]

It is a bit hypocritical to suggest that I accept what other people feel yet within your same statement, go on to tell ME what to do or how I am not allowed to express my feelings on the matter. I always find it amusing for those who talk about people having the right to have an opinion, only feel that way if everyone has THEIR opinion.

It's not hypocritical at all. You can have every opinion you want to have. You can even start your own group, be its leader, make its rules and set them up exactly like you want. Coming on the forums and complaining and moaning because the leader allowed so and so to join just comes off as overly whiney. If it bothered you so much, you didn't have to be a part of it.

And telling you your options isn't telling you what to do. I was merely saying you don't have much of a crutch to stand upon to complain about what one raid group leader does when you had every opportunity to drop and form your own group.

[bobbryan2]

Instate XP loss like the old death penalty but only if you get rez'd and not by coming back to life at a shrine. Make it 2.5% of total XP from completion per level of difference.[/LIST]There's a lot of ways to make it counterproductive to pull this kind of thing. It should NOT be done in pugs and were my own guildies to run a pug that way I'd have a few words about it with them. It should ONLY be done in an all-guildie run when everyone knows that it is being done up front. Worse than a pug, would be an inter-guild event as the guild that does it makes themselves look very rude in the eyes of the other one.

Those solutions all sound horrid and like they would do nothing but harm for the game.

Maybe i missed this.. but WHY is it rude for someone to fill the last spot with a warm body.

Fact) They were inside buffing
Extrapolation) They were ready to go with an empty spot

Now.. Is that level 4 (who immediately died) doing less than an empty spot? Really?

What if that Level 4 was more useful than 2 of the level 16s? You'd probably never admit that an awesome player with a level 4 could do some things that a bad level 16 couldn't, but there are things out there.

I bet I could pretty easily make a level 4 that could do plenty of jobs in various raids, like running crystals or firing the gun in the titan, or kiting mobs in the dragon. I've done plenty of those jobs with level 7 characters, and level 4 isn't all that much worse with a few classes.

What would you say if someone came on the forums complaining and moaning because some guild leader allowed a really bad level 16 into the group. "I told the guildleader he was worthless, but he invited him anyway, and he died immediately!" "Then he waited around till the end, grabbed the loot, and left" Most people would have simply told him to run his groups his own way, and if he didn't like people getting loot that didn't contribute, to go run it with 3-4 people.

There is absolutely nothing wrong or rude with allowing lower level characters to come along if the raid leader doesn't mind. No one has yet to give a single reason why having that level 4 along was more rude than running with an empty spot.

[Fixx]

I was recently in a pug raid this past week and experienced something I never really saw before. We are all inside buffing and the leader announces that a friend of his who was in group was only 2-4th level, that he would be joining us in the raid. It caught everyone by surprise and most were asking polite questions like how is he flagged, etc. I was going to ask questions but I thought, whats the use. We left it at that and went in. The low level toon died within minutes and hung out in the dead room the whole quest. Rezzed once raid was done, collected his loot and left. Not sure he got a raid item but thats not the point. My point is this, why is anyone doing this in a pug group in the first place? Sure, if you are with all guild mates or all friends I can see that. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with a pug raid group leader springing it on us at the last minute, when we are already buffing and itching to get the raid started. Why do the rest of the raid party have to pick up his slack when he contributed nothing to the raid at all. Why do we have to do all the work just so he can walk up and collect raid loot?

Now, I am sure some will say that there are plenty of times level appropriate toons do not pull their weight in a raid too. That is true but it is rare. Each time I have been in a raid, everyone wants to do their part. Everyone wants to help out the best they can for any of a number of reasons. To prove their skills to other players, because they are overjoyed to be apart of something big like a raid, etc. We each have our own reasons but we all want to help the best we can. Yet if you go into a raid knowing full well you will not contribute any help at all AND fully expect everyone else to do your work for you for your raid loot. Sorry folks, that does not feel right at all.

Understand though like I wrote above, if everyone in the raid are friends or guild mates not many would care at all. If you want to pull the weight of your friend's or guild mates, go for it. But expecting complete strangers to look the other way and to have them pick up the slack for what is in essence piggybacking on the part of this low level toon, is simply wrong. How can anyone think this is ok to do?

Now I won't complain or be rude to anyone if I was to be in this situation again. For the simple fact I will just politely bow out of the raid and wish them all luck. I will not preach to them how wrong it is nor talk trash of the ones pulling this on pug raids. If you want to be a part of it or see nothing wrong with it, good for you. As for me, I will find something else to do. Not a problem with me.

What do others feel about this?

If you felt so strongly why were you even there by the time he collected his loot ?? Right or Wrong YOU stayed and helped him "piggyback".

[Stonebread]

Usually I am a champion of good behavior in DDO, and well...I only have this to say on this topic....

Why does this matter?

It doesn't, and it does.

I have run all of one raid (Dragon) in the entire 2 years I've been playing DDO, so I cannot comment on the raid specific parts of this (like how easy the raid is and how most people just stand around and collect loot).

But I can say that I avoid PUGs with obviously underpowered characters. So I would be irritated if the leader invited a lowbie friend at the last minute...
or kicks a player so they can invite their friend...
or bails after the party is full so they run with their guild...
or changes the quest we're going to run...
or any number of other things that I consider rude.

I think it's more a matter of setting people's expectations and common courtesy than anything else. If you're going to invite a lowbie friend, say so in the LFM.

[Angelus_dead]

If you felt so strongly why were you even there by the time he collected his loot ?? Right or Wrong YOU stayed and helped him "piggyback".
No, he did not help in any way.

As has been explained, players beyond the 3rd or 4th do NOT help win Reaver's Fate in any way.

[bobbryan2]

But I can say that I avoid PUGs with obviously underpowered characters. So I would be irritated if the leader invited a lowbie friend at the last minute...

I hear you there. It annoys me when leaders invite dex based rogues into their party.

:D