Post Mod-6 Shaman: Dwarven BattleCleric

[Grenfell]

Mod5 started the shift, and Mod6 completes the changes the paradigm for the warrior priests of DDO. Even up to Gianthold, I felt that the sword or axe wielding clerics were comfortably superior to other builds in terms of efficiency and effectiveness. Mod5 brought us the undead quests where feats such as Improved Crit: Slash were not near as effective. With Mod6, we have extremely inflated mob HP, very serious DR on mobs, enormous attack bonuses on mob To Hit, and other mechanics (like teleporting devils) that makes raw DPS via weapons far less appealing for the battle cleric.

At the same time, cleric spellcasting is at an all time high in utility. Blade Barrier is probably the best DPS spell in the game right now; Destruction and Banishment are both extraordinarily useful (if you can blast through the SR), and healing is truly at a premium in places like The Shroud or Running With Devils elite.

Nonetheless, there is still very much a place for the fighting priest -- and this is the build I would run (and will be, as soon as my Fred timers are up on all the feat swapping I have to do) post Mod6.

The Shaman: Post Mod-6
Level 16 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(1 Paladin / 15 Cleric)

Strength 14 +6 item = 20 (+5)
Dexterity 8
Constitution 18 +2 enh +6 item = 26 (+8)
Intelligence 8 (1 skill pt/lvl)
Wisdom 18 +4 lvls +3 enh +1 tome +6 item = 32 (+11)
Charisma 6

You may put your +2 favor tome into either Str or Con, depending on your preference.

HP:
030 Heroic + Draconic
010 Pal 1
120 Clr 15
128 Con bonus
018 Toughness
050 Dwarven Toughness
018 Minos Legens
030 Greater False Life
---------------------
404 HP

SP:
080 Magical Training
675 Cleric 15
264 Wis bonus, cleric
110 Wis bonus, paladin
110 EotZ IV
015 Dwarven Faith I
150 Wiz VI
-------------
1404 SP

Skills: 1 pt/lvl, so put enough to tumble in armor, and rest into Jump. With Quicken, you won't be needing Concentration skill.

Feats:
1 Empower Healing
3 Extend <-- this could change to Empower once you're high enough level and don't care to extend things.
6 Toughness
9 Quicken
12 Maximize
15 Improved Crit: Piercing

Enhancements:
[dwarf] - Constitution (Dwarven) I (2)
[dwarf] - Constitution (Dwarven) II (4)
[dwarf] - Faith I (1)
[dwarf] - Spell Defense I (1)
[dwarf] - Spell Defense II (2)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) I (1)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) II (2)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) III (3)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) IV (4)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot I (1)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot II (2)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot III (3)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot IV (4)
[cleric] - Life Magic I (1)
[cleric] - Life Magic II (2)
[cleric] - Life Magic III (3)
[cleric] - Life Magic IV (4)
[cleric] - Prayer of Life I (1)
[cleric] - Prayer of Life II (2)
[cleric] - Prayer of Life III (3)
[cleric] - Wand Mastery I (1)
[cleric] - Wand Mastery II (2)
[cleric] - Wand Mastery III (3)
[cleric] - Wisdom I (2)
[cleric] - Wisdom II (4)
[cleric] - Wisdom III (6)

Possible Gear Loadout: (Going with what I have and can get; YMMV)
Head: Minos Legens
Eyes: Greensteel Goggles (pos/neg -- Wiz VI, Poison/fear Immunity, Wisdom 6)
Neck: Con 6
Trinket: Head of GF/Featherfall
Cloak: Stormreaver Napkin
Body: Fearsome FP (Blue Dragonscale is ideal)
Bracer: Str 6
Gloves: Gauntlets of Eternity
Belt: GFL
Boots: Striding/Boots of Innocent
Ring1: Dex 6 (not that important -- if you can get Greater Dev VI in here, that'd be great)
Ring2: OPEN SLOT (Resist +4 would be ideal)

To Hit:
12 BAB
05 Str bonus
03 Divine Favor
04 Divine Power BAB adjustment
05 Weapon
04 Greater Hero
----------------
+33 on first swing

However, you are likely to be using something like a +3 puncturing rapier, so figure on +30 or so on the first swing. Of course, you can use Dwarven Axes, Greataxes, etc. as well if the situation calls for them.

AC is unimportant at the high end, but during levelling up, between Fullplate, Shield, Shield of Faith, etc., you should be fine. For example, say around lvl 6:

10 Base
12 Armor (+4 FP)
1 Dex (with House P buffs)
06 Shield (+4 HSS)
03 Shield of Faith
03 Barkskin potion
01 Paladin base aura
--------------------
36 AC

That's pretty solid at lvl 6. At 9, can go with Chaosguarde and +5 armors for 40ish AC.

Notes:

The Shaman is built for relevancy throughout its career. In the early game, the level of paladin allows for all martial weapon usage, making the early levels a breeze. In the midgame, the rocksolid heals, the offensive casting (Greater Command FTW) combined with reasonable beatdown ability (Divine Power @ lvl 8) creates a formidable battlecleric. In the endgame, the max Wisdom, Maximized Blade Barriers, etc. create an excellent casting/healing cleric platform -- that can still wade into the fighting game, but using puncturing rapiers, banishers, smiters, and vorpals.

The #1 variation I could see is to skip the level of Paladin -- you lose the usage of martial weapons, but become a stronger casting cleric. In such a case, IC: Piercing should be replaced by Empower Spell. I would advise against it only because some of the vale mobs have truly amazing SR, and without spell pen feats and enhancements, I believe it is more cost-effective to use things like banishing rapiers/ss/daggers (if you own them, of course).

The bias against battleclerics is wholly unwarranted, and frankly unreasonable. Avoid such groups, avoid such people, and show 'em who's boss.

Again, as always, playing this sort of cleric requires skill and focus -- but you really can do it all.

/gren

[Impaqt]

The #1 variation I could see is to skip the level of Paladin -- you lose the usage of martial weapons, but become a stronger casting cleric. In such a case, IC: Piercing should be replaced by Empower Spell. I would advise against it only because some of the vale mobs have truly amazing SR, and without spell pen feats and enhancements, I believe it is more cost-effective to use things like banishing rapiers/ss/daggers (if you own them, of course).

The bias against battleclerics is wholly unwarranted, and frankly unreasonable. Avoid such groups, avoid such people, and show 'em who's boss.

Again, as always, playing this sort of cleric requires skill and focus -- but you really can do it all.

/gren

There arent many mobs in the vale (ok... there arent ANY is probobly more accuracte) that will survive more than a couple passes through a Maximized/Empowered/Superior Potencied Blade Barrier.

[Nick_RC]

Hey gren nice build - you and I are thinkin along the same lines again with regard to the changing roll of the cleric. I had similar thoughts but went 2wf for extra melee clout w/ dual vorpals/ w/p/banishers. Took the bard level to give me weapon proficiencies and umd. Now if i could only figure out how to raise my hp...he has more offensive melle capability than urs but no where near as many hp so id ave to be v careflu with him. If you get a chance can you look it over and lemme knw what ya think.

N

[Lyletuba]

I'm working on a different Cleric build myself but always helpful to read a Grenfell build post.
One thing I see repeated often is this:

With Quicken, you won't be needing Concentration skill.

But Quicken doesn't work on Scrolls (Wands don't get interrupted, I assume) and it adds to the cost of casting.
Do you plan on having Quicken 'on' all the time and not casting off scrolls except out-of-combat?
Do you have enough SP so that you won't need to rely on scrolls during combat?

[Grenfell]

I'm working on a different Cleric build myself but always helpful to read a Grenfell build post.
One thing I see repeated often is this:


But Quicken doesn't work on Scrolls (Wands don't get interrupted, I assume) and it adds to the cost of casting.
Do you plan on having Quicken 'on' all the time and not casting off scrolls except out-of-combat?
Do you have enough SP so that you won't need to rely on scrolls during combat?

What I've been finding on my current cleric (like i said, this variant won't be in place for a couple of weeks, due to all the feat swapping) is that if I have to use a scroll, I need to get out of combat or not be in combat in the first place. If I'm in a healbot mode (e.g., Shroud part 4), then quicken may or may not be necessary.

Plus... what I'm finding is that Concentration almost doesn't seem to matter. I think I have something north of 30 Concentration on my Dwarf; if I get hit by some Orthon or some such, I'm getting interrupted. So even with maxed Concentration, I'm finding that Quicken is necessary in many key quests (Shroud part 2, Vale quests, etc.).

I do plan on having Quicken on all the time, yes (except when buffing I guess), when fighting/healing.

/gren

[Impaqt]

With Paly AUras getting better (+3,6,9 COncentration with +3 Available to a 1 Lewvel Paly splash)), +15 Items getting more Common, and High Con on Dwarfs, Concentration is becoming quite effective.


My Dwarf Build

19 Ranks
15 Item
7 CON
3 AUra
---
44 Con
2 Head of GOod Fortune
4 Greater Heroism
---
50

Not to mention if I'm StoneSkinned that dR Counts twoards reducing damage....

I can reguarlly get hit got 60+ Points of damage and not get my conentration broken.

[CrimsonEagle]

With Paly AUras getting better (+3,6,9 COncentration with +3 Available to a 1 Lewvel Paly splash)), +15 Items getting more Common, and High Con on Dwarfs, Concentration is becoming quite effective.


My Dwarf Build

19 Ranks
15 Item
7 CON
3 AUra
---
44 Con
2 Head of GOod Fortune
4 Greater Heroism
---
50

Not to mention if I'm StoneSkinned that dR Counts twoards reducing damage....

I can reguarlly get hit got 60+ Points of damage and not get my conentration broken.

Difference in opinion possibly, but I will never again put a point into concentration even if I could get it up to the point of my spells not getting interupted.

When I took quicken, before I really knew how it worked, I was thinking I would use it on rare occasions, in big fights. Now, I am addicted to the faster casting and unless buffing, it never comes off.

Do you have to have it? Well....seeing what you have shown, (never even tried to max it out), I guess you dont.....unless you are like me and have become a faster casting junky:)

[Strykersz]

Is there any reason not to swap emp. healing and toughness? Emp. healing doesn't become cost effective until higher level and toughness is most effective at low level(when it makes up a larger % of your hp).

[Impaqt]

Difference in opinion possibly, but I will never again put a point into concentration even if I could get it up to the point of my spells not getting interupted.

When I took quicken, before I really knew how it worked, I was thinking I would use it on rare occasions, in big fights. Now, I am addicted to the faster casting and unless buffing, it never comes off.

Do you have to have it? Well....seeing what you have shown, (never even tried to max it out), I guess you dont.....unless you are like me and have become a faster casting junky:)

I Absolutely have Quicken on all My CLerics. WOuldnt build one without it.

But with all the complaining clerics do about money, why would you want to risk the chance of having your Heal and Raise dead scrolls constantly interupted?

[CrimsonEagle]

I Absolutely have Quicken on all My CLerics. WOuldnt build one without it.

But with all the complaining clerics do about money, why would you want to risk the chance of having your Heal and Raise dead scrolls constantly interupted?


Bah!!!! If they would heal themselves......but thats another topic.

Now....JUMP....JUMP is where I will put it!!!! I hate not being able to jump!!!

LOL.

[Impaqt]

Bah!!!! If they would heal themselves......but thats another topic.

Now....JUMP....JUMP is where I will put it!!!! I hate not being able to jump!!!

LOL.

jump.... Useless.... Stop wearing reduculosly heavy armor that does you no good, get a pair of Jump boots, a Clicky, and dont gimp your STR.....

My clerics can get toa 30 or so Jump without putting a Single point into it.

Balance..... Now theres a Skill that I could agree with.. But still, with a Balance Item, Your getting up pretty quick and not gettin thrown around inthe titan.

[Blazer]

Now....JUMP....JUMP is where I will put it!!!! I hate not being able to jump!!!

LOL.

LOL, yeah, that's why when I rebuilt my human cleric as a 32pts, I went with 10 INT. Max ranks in Concentration, Balance, and Jump. Balance and Jump are at half ranks, obviously, but they're both at a comfortable level (with Gyro Boots and a Jump ring -yummy). Makes life nice for when I'm boucing around mobs flinging spells.

[Blazer]

jump.... Useless.... Stop wearing reduculosly heavy armor that does you no good, get a pair of Jump boots, a Clicky, and dont gimp your STR.....

My clerics can get toa 30 or so Jump without putting a Single point into it.

Balance..... Now theres a Skill that I could agree with.. But still, with a Balance Item, Your getting up pretty quick and not gettin thrown around inthe titan.

Agreed with the caveat "if you're not going human". The extra skill point humans get lends itself nicely to helping out a poor balance or jump skill. My cleric hits 30 Jump in heavy armor and still has a +20 to balance (thanks Gyroscopic Boots!).

[D'rin]

Nice work Gren. Interesting changes. When I made my cleric I took the shaman template and altered it thinking of what changes might come. It was the most foresight I have ever had in this game. My cleric looks almost exactly like yours. Except I don't have improved crit piercing.

The build was fun to play from level one all the way through. I could solo alot when low level and also run with groups when i wanted. I could always get a group and actually only had one run in with someone complaining about needing a heal. It was of course a sorcerer that was at half health and no mobs around, but that is another rant all together.

I do find that in the vale part one and two you can still do just fine with greater bane weapons and buffs if you want to lay the smack down on some trash mobs. Just vorpal the orthons or just wound them if your str/damage is high enough. Now that I have the greensteel goggles with +6 wis and the sp buff I may swap some feats but not sure yet. I may swap extend for empower just to make blade barriers that much more amazing.

I don't think you gain a lot from going pure cleric actually. Your +1 dc does not make that much differance with the SR mob have. You would need the spell pen feats to really make a differance. And having the martial weapons early on is really nice to be able to solo early on and also to show up all the fighters at low level. :D

[Grenfell]

Is there any reason not to swap emp. healing and toughness? Emp. healing doesn't become cost effective until higher level and toughness is most effective at low level(when it makes up a larger % of your hp).

No, not really. I'm just used to putting in Emp Healing @ lvl 1 for cleric builds, but the order you take the feats is pretty flexible. I just don't bother with Maximize until I get Blade Barrier @ 12, but that's flexible too. :)

/gren

[Grenfell]

Nice work Gren. Interesting changes. When I made my cleric I took the shaman template and altered it thinking of what changes might come. It was the most foresight I have ever had in this game. My cleric looks almost exactly like yours. Except I don't have improved crit piercing.

The build was fun to play from level one all the way through. I could solo alot when low level and also run with groups when i wanted. I could always get a group and actually only had one run in with someone complaining about needing a heal. It was of course a sorcerer that was at half health and no mobs around, but that is another rant all together.

I do find that in the vale part one and two you can still do just fine with greater bane weapons and buffs if you want to lay the smack down on some trash mobs. Just vorpal the orthons or just wound them if your str/damage is high enough. Now that I have the greensteel goggles with +6 wis and the sp buff I may swap some feats but not sure yet. I may swap extend for empower just to make blade barriers that much more amazing.

I don't think you gain a lot from going pure cleric actually. Your +1 dc does not make that much differance with the SR mob have. You would need the spell pen feats to really make a differance. And having the martial weapons early on is really nice to be able to solo early on and also to show up all the fighters at low level. :D

Yeah; I think the Extend --> Empower trade makes sense. I no longer extend that much -- really, only Blade Barrier gets extended on a regular basis. And Empower means you do'nt have to extend BB.

But I would recommend going with IC: Piercing. :) You can still vorpal with IC: Pierce, after all, but now you get puncturing, banishing and all that yumminess. I just need another 9 W/P weapons and I'll be set on my melees, including this cleric. LOL.

/gren

[D'rin]

I just need another 9 W/P weapons and I'll be set on my melees, including this cleric. LOL.

/gren

My problem exactly. Between all of my TWF rangers I need a ton of w/p weapons. Time to farm 1-3 shroud on elite I guess. :rolleyes:

[demosthenes]

Gren,

How would you lay out this build with only 28 pt or drow available?

[Strykersz]

How would you lay out this build with only 28 pt or drow available?

I can't imagine the answer will be anything other than 16 con.

[Grenfell]

Gren,

How would you lay out this build with only 28 pt or drow available?

I'd just reduce Con on the base Dwarf platform. With a 28pter, you can get 14/16/18 Str/Con/Wis.

18 hp isn't gonna change the build.

This does not work with Drow; you just don't have the HP's to be a battlecleric post Mod6.

/gren

[Rkik_Dnec]

I am playing a very similar build to this at the moment. Same starting stats (only 16 CON since it's a 28pt build), but I left off Empower Healing and have Mental Toughness and IMT. I've also been taking more of the Faith enhancements. He's level 9, and I'm loving it. I love smacking things around, but at the same time, offensive spellcasting is a lot of fun too. How much SP is lost by dropping MT and IMT? I doubt I would do it now, but possibly later in his career I may drop IMT for Maximize or Quicken (I plan on taking one of those at 12, most likely Maximize, since I've been maxing my Concentration). As for Concentration, I've been maxing it at this point. Is there any point to change that for something else, or I should I just stick with it?

Last question, about spell penetration, how exactly is that calculated? Is it possible, or sensible to try and boost it without sacrificing too much? I'd like to try and use spells like Destruction and Banishment, but I don't know if it would be worth it.

[demosthenes]

What level do you recommend snagging Paladin? Obviously not level 1, given your feat selection...

[Grenfell]

What level do you recommend snagging Paladin? Obviously not level 1, given your feat selection...

I'd personally grab it at lvl 2 to make the earlygoing much, much easier. I like to solo as much as possible through lvl 1-8, so the martial weapons can be very nice indeed.

Otherwise, at lvl 4, after you have Extended Bull's Strength.

The later you go, the less you want to take the paladin level.

/gren

[demosthenes]

I went ahead and made this fellow last night on Ghallanda for when my barbarian I'm working on gets tiresome. I am level 2, almost 3, and still completely cleric...haven't had any trouble hitting things, and my +1 heavy mace (hey, I'm level 2!) seems to do just as well as about anything else I could grab hold of at this point. Granted, I'm a fan of using a good dwarven axe, which is tossed out the window at this point (incidentally, that is just downright silly...cleric or not, I'm still a dwarf darn it!)

My thought is to hold off on pal until I feel like I want it to use a spiffy weapon I pull/buy. In the meantime with low end stuff, the blunt maces and the like seem to be just as good.

The real driver for holding off on paladin though has nothing to do with utility...its the stigma. If I stick all cleric, I know I get the praise an adoration for being a 'real cleric' as far as people can tell, despite the fact that they might notice me whacking on some kobolds on occasion. If I grab that paladin level, the dire doom of being a 'battle cleric' is a concern...it wouldn't in the slightest change my ability to heal (well, I'd be one level behind on acquiring spells...but really...) but there seems to be some sort of massive distaste for the battle cleric in groups.

Am I overly concerned? Is it going to cause as much of an issue as I fear to grab that paladin level, or should I just bite the bullet and go for it?

Though frankly, in either case, it seems like the best time to take that paladin level is 'when it will seem helpful'...as it is right now, I don't think it would do a thing for my survivability or my ability to whack on things.

[orcbanian]

Thank you for posting this. I am working on a Dwarf Cleric that has already deviated from this a little, but not enough to make it a problem. This build has given me a good idea of how to take it from now on.

Good stuff!

[bobbryan2]

Ok, I'll ask.

Why paladin? Are you planning on taking Paladin 2 at some point? Because with a 6 charisma, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the bonus for all the work it would take in getting your charisma as high as a 16. And if you're not planning on Paladin 2, wouldn't you be better off grabbing the extra feat with fighter, a favored enemy with ranger, or even faster running with the barbarian?

Basically.. I'd take any class over paladin right there. Kinda curious why you're taking it.

[Rkik_Dnec]

Ok, I'll ask.

Why paladin? Are you planning on taking Paladin 2 at some point? Because with a 6 charisma, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the bonus for all the work it would take in getting your charisma as high as a 16. And if you're not planning on Paladin 2, wouldn't you be better off grabbing the extra feat with fighter, a favored enemy with ranger, or even faster running with the barbarian?

Basically.. I'd take any class over paladin right there. Kinda curious why you're taking it.

Paladin is +1 AC, all the martial weapons and you still get all the SP. With fighter or Barb you would lose that SP. Ranger may not be a horrible idea,, since you would still have that SP. Also, at level 2 when you'd want to be taking that level of Pali, there aren't a lot of fighter feats that will be hugely beneficial in the long run. It would almost be better taking a level of fighter later, then.

[Tobiase]

There arent many mobs in the vale (ok... there arent ANY is probobly more accuracte) that will survive more than a couple passes through a Maximized/Empowered/Superior Potencied Blade Barrier.

agreed

[bobbryan2]

Paladin is +1 AC, all the martial weapons and you still get all the SP. With fighter or Barb you would lose that SP. Ranger may not be a horrible idea,, since you would still have that SP. Also, at level 2 when you'd want to be taking that level of Pali, there aren't a lot of fighter feats that will be hugely beneficial in the long run. It would almost be better taking a level of fighter later, then.

What SP are you gaining from Ranger or Paladin? They don't get SP until level 4.

And the +1 AC is negligible at high levels. This build really won't have the AC for it to really matter in elite level content anyway, so you're basically sacrificing a free feat or faster running for a +1 to AC (meaningless) and a +1 concentration (which he isn't even putting skill points into anyway)

[Grenfell]

Ok, I'll ask.

Why paladin? Are you planning on taking Paladin 2 at some point? Because with a 6 charisma, it doesn't seem like it would be worth the bonus for all the work it would take in getting your charisma as high as a 16. And if you're not planning on Paladin 2, wouldn't you be better off grabbing the extra feat with fighter, a favored enemy with ranger, or even faster running with the barbarian?

Basically.. I'd take any class over paladin right there. Kinda curious why you're taking it.

Paladin gives you extra SP's, especially at the high end. I think my resource indicates 110 sp at 30/32 Wis at lvl 16 from the splash level of Paladin.

The +1 AC and especially +1 Saves doesn't hurt. I will not take paladin 2, especially on this build, with 6 Cha. :)

Ranger is also decent, but not sure that Bow Strength and even 1 FE is worth it compared to +1 to all saves.

The main benefit is picking up all Martial Weapons proficiency as a Dwarf. It's ridiculous how much easier melee is in the Vale with various specialty rapiers, then pulling out the vorpal Dwarven Axe.

The Fighter also works; the extra feat is certainly handy. It's just a little lower HP and one fewer on saves.

/gren

[Rkik_Dnec]

What SP are you gaining from Ranger or Paladin? They don't get SP until level 4.

And the +1 AC is negligible at high levels. This build really won't have the AC for it to really matter in elite level content anyway, so you're basically sacrificing a free feat or faster running for a +1 to AC (meaningless) and a +1 concentration (which he isn't even putting skill points into anyway)

Paladins don't get SP until they are able to cast divine spells, and by taking cleric at the first level you get the spells and you will get a boost in spell points when you take that paladin level. If you take a level of fighter at level 2, you will have the same number of SP as you did at level 1.

[samho]

Paladins don't get SP until they are able to cast divine spells, and by taking cleric at the first level you get the spells and you will get a boost in spell points when you take that paladin level. If you take a level of fighter at level 2, you will have the same number of SP as you did at level 1.

Just a minor head-up, while your base sp / bonus sp base on your caster level, Mental Toughness / Improved Mental Toughness base on your character level -- so if you are cleric 1 with mental toughness and take fighter class as your next level, then you still gain 5 sp (from mental toughness)

And for the sp gaining from paladin level: you receive

(9 + YOUR_PALADIN_LEVEL ) * YOUR_WISDOM_MOD, so a PAL1/CLE15 with Wisdom 32 (+11 mod) receive 110 sp from his paladin level.

[Grenfell]

There arent many mobs in the vale (ok... there arent ANY is probobly more accuracte) that will survive more than a couple passes through a Maximized/Empowered/Superior Potencied Blade Barrier.

A comment on this, based on recently experience with a very similar dwarven cleric (I adapted an existing 1ftr/14clr to this template for testing).

Was running Ritual, and... well, you know, there are times when you really don't want to spend the 90sp or so for a Max/Emp'ed Blade Barrier. In my case, it was a couple of earth elementals. I knew they couldn't really hurt me -- I have FoM and self-healing. It was much quicker to whip out the puncturing rapier and whack them a few times, and cheaper on SP: one Heal for around 50sp vs. the BB.

That's the nice thing about this build -- you can fight. You can melee. The piercing-spec is huge for Vale (and frankly, for lower level stuff too like GH). And you have the choice between dealing out massive BB damage, or Destructing, or just whipping out the rapiers or vorpal Dwarven Axes and going to town.

My other cleric build -- focused much more on casting -- really couldn't do that as well. For him, facing two earth elementals, it's either drop a BB, try Destruction/Banish, or run around and wait for someone else to kill mobs. Different playstyle, but I think the Shaman is a touch better on SP conservation.

/gren

[Samadhi]

Paladin gives you extra SP's, especially at the high end. I think my resource indicates 110 sp at 30/32 Wis at lvl 16 from the splash level of Paladin.

The +1 AC and especially +1 Saves doesn't hurt. I will not take paladin 2, especially on this build, with 6 Cha. :)

Ranger is also decent, but not sure that Bow Strength and even 1 FE is worth it compared to +1 to all saves.

The main benefit is picking up all Martial Weapons proficiency as a Dwarf. It's ridiculous how much easier melee is in the Vale with various specialty rapiers, then pulling out the vorpal Dwarven Axe.

The Fighter also works; the extra feat is certainly handy. It's just a little lower HP and one fewer on saves.

/gren

Here's why ranger - 1 AP for ranger sprint boost - best addition I could see by far; plus rangers get better base saves at lvl 1 than pali's (particularly for their reflex save - where this build and many other clerics are hurting the worst).

[Grenfell]

Here's why ranger - 1 AP for ranger sprint boost - best addition I could see by far; plus rangers get better base saves at lvl 1 than pali's (particularly for their reflex save - where this build and many other clerics are hurting the worst).

I can see that. As long as you get +1BAB, martial weapons, and so on, the rest is gravy.

/gren

[Anthios888]

Grenfell, what extra feat did you take with your fighter/cleric version of this? Do you ever fall back on tower shields?

[Grenfell]

Grenfell, what extra feat did you take with your fighter/cleric version of this? Do you ever fall back on tower shields?

I took Power Attack at lvl 2 with my Fighter feat. It comes in handy in some places (chopping pillars in VON6, portal bashing, etc.) but otherwise, I don't think about it that often.

If I had taken Fighter level at 12, then I could have both Empower AND Improved Crit. As it is, I have some decisions to make.

As for shields... yeah, I can use tower shields natively, but I use the Stormreaver shield like every other cleric (it seems) if I use one at all. With 8 base dex, there's no real point in trying to max my AC out; nor is there a reason to with 400 hp and 427 pt uninterruptible Heals.

/gren

[schroebj13]

How would this build look on a halfling? I have a +5 Mith FP of stability rr half, that I want to build around. Would it completely gimp this build to go halfling and use this armor? Just wondering. Otherwise I will sell the armor and follow this build, it looks GREAT!!! Thanks

Duliet

[Grenfell]

How would this build look on a halfling? I have a +5 Mith FP of stability rr half, that I want to build around. Would it completely gimp this build to go halfling and use this armor? Just wondering. Otherwise I will sell the armor and follow this build, it looks GREAT!!! Thanks

Duliet

I won't say completely gimp... but you lose something like 70 hp's... I wouldn't take Toughness on any non-dwarven cleric.

I'd just build a halfling barbarian, and find a plain vanilla +5 FP for this build.

/gren

[schroebj13]

Your right, I lose the HP and if I try to pump the dex up to take advantage of the Mith FP, then I lose sp or str. I would also have to go fighter and that has been fully discussed previously.

That settles it. The Shaman as posted and a different build to take care of the Mith FP.

Thanks Gren

Duliet