Wearing a Buckler while weilding a Bow, why cant we?

[Dracolich]

I was curious as to why we cannot wear a buckler while weilding a bow. After all isnt the buckler designed to wear while stille being able to weild something in your offhand. I can see the logistical difficulties but in PnP you can wear one and shoot a bow. You only get the AC bonus from the shield if you have not fired your bow that roundm In DDO perhaps we could get the AC bonus fro mthe shield only when we activly block with it, thus negating being able to fire while getting the AC bonus.

Just some random thoughts while at work.

[rpasell]

I was curious as to why we cannot wear a buckler while weilding a bow. After all isnt the buckler designed to wear while stille being able to weild something in your offhand. I can see the logistical difficulties but in PnP you can wear one and shoot a bow. You only get the AC bonus from the shield if you have not fired your bow that roundm In DDO perhaps we could get the AC bonus fro mthe shield only when we activly block with it, thus negating being able to fire while getting the AC bonus.

Just some random thoughts while at work.

/signed

A buckler on each arm no less.

[JacknCoke]

/signed

A buckler on each arm no less.

and on each foot, knee and one on the bum each with a +463702478348364837 bazillitrilazonez of AC THAT STACKS!

[Mad_Bombardier]

I like your buckler AC and DR when blocking only idea. It fits with live action gameplay in DDO. :) Perhaps the same can apply to TWF!

[rpasell]

one on the bum

A Bumckler?

[Invalid_86]

/signed

A buckler on each arm no less.


What's the point of that? Shield bonuses don't stack.

[JKJudgeX]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler

A buckler, while often worn on the forearm for carrying purposes, is ACTUALLY supposed to be gripped in the fist during combat. You can probably find some SCA vids on youtube where people use them, they are fairly popular therein.

I believe the buckler requires a hand in D&D because whoever made the rules was thinking that the fist gripped buckler would be the only way it could be used and justify a +1 AC bonus.

Also, if you can use a buckler on one hand and a bow, (Which requires two hands), I should be able to use a buckler and a sword and a round shield all at once, and, people never really fought that way in history, so, that's probably why that's out.

[rpasell]

What's the point of that? Shield bonuses don't stack.

Much like the bumckler for the "coolness" factor.

[Karr]

I'm sorry, but this is one of those things where common sense applies. How is a buckler adding to your AC if you are wielding a bow? It's only actively supporting your AC if you are using it as a shield to block an incoming blow.

Whether you could physically use a bow while wearing a buckler is irrellevant. How many people do you know that could swim (underwater breathing aside) in full plate armor with a sword and shield in their hands? I think they have more important things to worry about than if you can visually have a buckler equipped on your hand while using something else.

[JKJudgeX]

The urge of power-gamers to continually min-max and add little +1's all over their character sheets often steps on the feet of realism. It's a big problem with MMOs and PnP games.

Sadly, looks like 4e will be contributing to this problem rather than stifling it.

[roadkill525]

I believe in PNP you could wear a buckler while TWF but took a negative due to the extra weight and awkwardness. I don;t remember if you could shoot while wearing a buckler, but if you could I'm sure it provided more negatives. only thing I could see not providing a negative is crossbows, sence most of those were said to be weildable in 1 hand but required 2 hands to load.

[Jilliane]

The urge of power-gamers to continually min-max and add little +1's all over their character sheets often steps on the feet of realism. It's a big problem with MMOs and PnP games.

Sadly, looks like 4e will be contributing to this problem rather than stifling it.

I always expect to see the words 'power gamers' and 'min-maxers' starred out like curse words on this forum. Power gamers play a whole lot and pay the bills. Min-Maxing is what happens in MMO's. Pnp has a few rules that prevent it, if you follow the rules as written.

I min-max in DDO....and I probably fall under the definition of a power-gamer. My suggestion is, if you hate min-maxing...don't do it. We all get to play this game how we want to, within the rules.

[QuantumFX]

I'm sorry, but this is one of those things where common sense applies. How is a buckler adding to your AC if you are wielding a bow? It's only actively supporting your AC if you are using it as a shield to block an incoming blow.

That's where the applying bonuses while blocking comes in. Currently it's a gigantic pain in the butt to switch between melee and ranged weapons it's much easier to hit the shift key and have my AC/DR go up for the cost of a -1 to hit.

[Nyp]

I know this is a fantasy game (having played PnP for 30 years) but as a DM I stressed "Realisim" in my worlds. The rules allow it but have you ever worn a buckler and shot a bow? A previous post mentioned the SCA. This is a midevial recreation group. I was an active member for over 20 years and as such fought in real armor & helmet and carried a shield, shot a bow in combat and fought with many different weapon forms. Even with your exceptional strength please try an pull a 100lb longbow while wearing a 10lb buckler strapped to your arm. Then aim it accuratly, over and over again. Not happening. Even for Conan.

[Nyp]

Yopu cant just strap a bucker to your arm, it has to be held unless it was really small and then its not providing any real protection anyway. Thats called a vanbrace.

[Mad_Bombardier]

A Bumckler?Bumcklers are also good for sledding. :D

[JKJudgeX]

"I min-max in DDO....and I probably fall under the definition of a power-gamer. My suggestion is, if you hate min-maxing...don't do it. We all get to play this game how we want to, within the rules."

I min-max as well, after making a couple characters and NOT min-maxxing, and facing the fact that the game is balanced around min-maxxing, it's the only way to play most MMOs.

I wasn't saying you were doing anything wrong by doing so, I was saying the systems are wrong for making it the only way to really enjoy the game in many cases.

How do they stop that? Make it so that diplomacy/bluff skill comes in handy a LOT more often than it does, create challenges and rewards for more than just fighting, and enough of them that fighting becomes a little less necessary. A good way to help also is to cut back on itemization and keep classes more closely balanced, such that RUINING a character build isn't so easily done.

Things like that, not groundbreaking things. Min-max away under the current ruleset. I'm not the kind of guy to tell you not to choose M. Bison in Street Fighter 2 because in the early versions his footsweep roundhouse could be exploited for an auto-KO with no way out other than never being hit. I'm more the type to take that one up with the developers until they release a new version (which they did, but, DDO? Hmm... kinda slow on fixing some of this junk.)

[Shaamis]

The difference between a small shield and a buckler (other than size) is one is strapped to the arm with no steadiness support of the hand, the other is held in place using the hand, and strapped across your forearm.

In PnP, you can use a weapon in the arm a buckler is strapped to, but you do not benefi from teh defense of the buckler while attacking with that weapon, unless you have a special feat (one of the complete books I believe). I believe this feat also encompasses the use of a bow or crossbow.

In DDO, since there is no forearm slot, where a buckler would go (bracers would have a similar, but seperate slot I believe) the bracer falls to the weapon/shield/hand slot.

So dual-wielding swash bucklers (get it?) kinda get hosed, but they do get a feat they can use (dual weapon defense?) that kinda helps.....

[Ranmaru2]

How do they stop that? Make it so that diplomacy/bluff skill comes in handy a LOT more often than it does, create challenges and rewards for more than just fighting, and enough of them that fighting becomes a little less necessary. A good way to help also is to cut back on itemization and keep classes more closely balanced, such that RUINING a character build isn't so easily done.

Diplomacy is very useful for getting aggro OFF of you, and is especially useful as a cleric....just a thought...

[Mercules]

Power gamers play a whole lot and pay the bills.

Yeah, because increased bandwidth doesn't cost more and we don't all pay the same amount no matter how often log into the game and how long we are on it. It's the, "I have an account but rarely log in." players they make the most money off of. They need less content and less bandwidth for the same monthly fee.

[Dracolich]

First off I didnt say anything about getting the AC bonus while weilding the weapon. I said the AC bonus for the shield would only apply while activly blocking.
Second, the only reason I mentiond it is thats its alloud in PnP period. Not because I want to be a power gamer or a minmaxer or whatever. Simply to strive to become closer to PnP that is all.

As for realism have you tried to swing a bastard sword one handed in real life? Its **** near impossible too trust me I have one that is combat certified. So please unless your going to hold everything to the "Realism" factor dont pick and choose simply because it fits your image of reality.

I also neglected to add in the TWF for use with the buckler and am sorry for that since they are allowed to wear them in PnP.

[roadkill525]

First off I didnt say anything about getting the AC bonus while weilding the weapon. I said the AC bonus for the shield would only apply while activly blocking.
Second, the only reason I mentiond it is thats its alloud in PnP period. Not because I want to be a power gamer or a minmaxer or whatever. Simply to strive to become closer to PnP that is all.

As for realism have you tried to swing a bastard sword one handed in real life? Its **** near impossible too trust me I have one that is combat certified. So please unless your going to hold everything to the "Realism" factor dont pick and choose simply because it fits your image of reality.

I also neglected to add in the TWF for use with the buckler and am sorry for that since they are allowed to wear them in PnP.

aye iy might be hard to swing a bastard sword one handed. but by D&D standards ya prolly at average strength? maybe alittle above average? now the char with 20+ strength swinging that bastard sword would prolly be a condender for the strong man compatitions, am sure that guy who can pull a semi would have little trouble swinging a bastard sword one handed once he lernt the motion. thats the kinda stuff I have a problem with, I think of how impossable it is to do something, with out actualy relizing just how strong or how quick some of these chars would be if real people

[Ranmaru2]

Since when has realism been something that D&D sticks to in the first place? Come on! You can have two great swords in each hand swinging them like TWF!! You show me someone capable of swinging two 80 lb flamberges like they're rapiers!! :eek:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Ya gotta love it when someone wants to tell you how things work in the real world and how they should work in a fantasy world.....dragons and fireballs.

right now, a buckler is a light shield with a different name....not the way it should be.

I signed up to play DDO. Dungeons and Dragons Online. I expected to follow D&D rules.

Make Bucklers like they are in D&D is the right answer.

The D&D of rule books....preferably core rule books.....not your buddies house rules 3.9 edition Super Duper Fighter Handbook.

[Invalid_86]

Much like the bumckler for the "coolness" factor.

Or for the "I just dropped the soap" factor....!
:eek:

[oronisi]

Just make a buckler-like trinket that adds the little buckler graphic to our arm and call it a day.

[JKJudgeX]

"Ya gotta love it when someone wants to tell you how things work in the real world and how they should work in a fantasy world.....dragons and fireballs."

Of course... but, you can't have people in a fantasy world using bucklers the way they aren't really used and gaining some crazy benefit from it...

Things have to be realistic to a certain degree, otherwise you're just playing strange imagination games.

That ends up with a walking airplane vs. an airborne whirlpool fighting with loaded tube socks in an asteroid belt preeeeetty darn quick if you're where I'm from.

[Alavatar]

Since when has realism been something that D&D sticks to in the first place? Come on! You can have two great swords in each hand swinging them like TWF!! You show me someone capable of swinging two 80 lb flamberges like they're rapiers!! :eek:

I don't know where you get your material, but Flamberges and Scottish Claymores and other large swords were not 80lbs. More like 6-12lbs at most. In fact, most of your one-handed weapons weighed around 3-4 lbs (blunt ones heavier obviously)

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm


Also, D&D allows you to wield a Large Longsword in one hand if you have the feat Monkey Grip. Greatswords must always use two hands.

[Ranmaru2]

I don't know where you get your material, but Flamberges and Scottish Claymores and other large swords were not 80lbs. More like 6-12lbs at most. In fact, most of your one-handed weapons weighed around 3-4 lbs (blunt ones heavier obviously)

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm


Also, D&D allows you to wield a Large Longsword in one hand if you have the feat Monkey Grip. Greatswords must always use two hands.

The exaggerated weight value was meant to convey the awkward appearance/distortion this kind of sword-usage would have compared to real life. Yes, the heaviest great sword was up to 10 lbs, as they were the replacement of spears/lances in areas where there wasn't a lot of wood. Some were light, while others were heavier to maintain their roll as anti-cavalry. Now, dual wielding Bastard Swords is awkward, as the swords are too long to make it convenient and practical to wield them as such. That was what I was trying to convey.

My post was meant for a D&D character like a Half-Orc who with Monkey Grip, if I understand the feat correctly, might be able to use a great sword with 1h. Unless my understanding of the feat is off a little.

[GwenJynx]

From my understanding Monkey grip allows you to use a weapon I "Weapon Size" larger then normal, not 1 "Weapon Size Catagory" then normal. Ill explain

Weapon Size is similar to Character size, as in a halfing is a small character so they use weapons of the small size. Humans are mediums so they use medium weapons, and Ogres are large so they use large weapons.

Weapon Size Catagories are Light, 1 Handed, 2 handed, and I think Ranged has its own catagory too. These tell how a weapon works with things like two weapon fighting, power attack, weapon finese, and things of like that.

So the Monkey Grip feat lets you use a weapon 1 size catagory larger then you. This means a Halfling can use a Human sized longsword, and the Human can use an Ogre sized longsword but it doesnt let you use a 2 handed weapon as if it was a 1 handed weapon.

[Primalhowl]

ven with your exceptional strength please try an pull a 100lb longbow while wearing a 10lb buckler strapped to your arm.

If your "buckler" weighed 10 pounds, it was clearly not a buckler. Bucklers were small and light weight, intended to deflect rather than catch and hold a sword blow.

In historical fact, fighting with a buckler was more akin to fighting with a weapon in each hand than it was to using a shield. Even as far back as MS I.33 (one of the earliest surviving European fechbuchs known to exist... dated somewhere in the late 13th to early 14th century depending on the source), the buckler was treated as less of a protection for the body and more as a covering for the hands and a tool to strike at the face and hands of an opponent.

That said, it is absurd to attempt to relate D&D-based weapon and armor names to actual real-world counterparts. They just don't line up. Case and point... the longsword.

Historically, the longsword had a hilt long enough for 1.5 to 2 hands, and both hands were typically used on the hilt, one for control and one for power (ah, the wonders of fulcrums and leverage). The term "bastard sword" was a colloquial term (from the French) applied to a sub-category of longswords that had hilts shorter than a normal longsword.

The D&D version of a "longsword" would more properly be called an arming sword in historical parlance... a single handed edged sword commonly used with a buckler or shield. In fact, to my understanding, the images in I.33 actually depict the use of an arming sword and a buckler in tandem.

Err... whoops! I see the conversation had moved beyond this. Sorry. Go back to the conversation you were having.

[FluffyCalico]

I was curious as to why we cannot wear a buckler while weilding a bow. After all isnt the buckler designed to wear while stille being able to weild something in your offhand. I can see the logistical difficulties but in PnP you can wear one and shoot a bow. You only get the AC bonus from the shield if you have not fired your bow that roundm In DDO perhaps we could get the AC bonus fro mthe shield only when we activly block with it, thus negating being able to fire while getting the AC bonus.

Just some random thoughts while at work.

Because back in beta DDO developers were told by everyone that bucklers and small shields were not the same thing and they refused to change it.