Yohoho and a Bottle of Rum: a Toast to Ramises

[geezee]

Here's my latest reroll, Yohoho and a Bottle of Rum. I'm dedicating this build to Ramises, for 3 reasons.

1) Ramises is the grandfather of battle bards in DDO. Long before the infamous forum wipe, he posted a bard build which featured 18 STR and low CHA. Everyone thought he was crazy; in those days bards were supposed to stand back with a repeater or use weapon finesse when they weren't busy casting. At that time DEX builds were generally accepted to be far superior to STR builds. My best friend irl and I imitated the build, and began tweaking it. This led to a long series of rerolls, leading me up to this one.

2) When I changed servers to Argo, I ended up duoing Tangleroot at level 3 with a guy named Nick, whose builds are famous on DDO forums. I noticed that he was in the guild Tinted Faces, which I recognized as Ramises' guild from his sig in the forum. Nick liked my zerging style, and invited me into TF. He has since formed his own guild, but I'm in a great guild of foul-mouthed zergers, thanks to those 2 individuals.

3) Ramises gave me a +1 INT tome for this character, without knowing who he was. So I thought it would be fitting to dedicate the build to the original Battle Bard, Ramises.

The objectives of this build are to make a pure bard who is good at melee, cc, has decent durability, and stealth for soloing. Additionally, I wanted to tailor the character to excel at wielding a Dreamspitter, for melee and cc. Because I'm trying to do so much with the build, human is the obvious choice for race. He is a CHA-based warchanter.

Without further ado, here's the build:

Yohoho and a Bottle of Rum
Human bard 16, Warchanter (32 point)
Starting Stats: 14 9 16 13 8 16
+1 INT tome @ level 1, levelups into CHA
Level 16 stats (with +1-3 tomes, +6 stat items, human enhancements): 24 16 26 14 8 32

feats: FOP, PA, WF: blunt, cleave, great cleave, IC: blunt, Spell Pen.
skills: 1 tumble, 14 haggle, max balance, jump, concentration, perform, haggle, diplo, hide, move

essential gear: Dreamsplitter, Mentau goggles, DQ necklace, Minos helm, cartouche, +3 tomes (4), +6 stat items (4), GFL item, others that are easier to get.

I have included +3 tomes in my calculations, as I'm guessing they will be easier to come by in the next mod. I have not included greensteel in my calculations, as I loathe crafting, and I refuse to be bullied into a level of treadmilling which has made me quit several other MMORPGs. If you want to farm greensteel, you can increase the DCs for this character's cc spells.

Can reach 300 hp with a +3 CON tome, +6 CON item and Minos helm. UMD 40 with GH, cartouche and human skill boost of +3.

The idea is to lead with aoe cc spells, and to use cleave and great cleave with Dreamsplitter, to procure the level drain and and wear down melee mobs. Diplo first when in trouble, then fascinate if really in trouble.

Offensive spells: grease, soundburst, fear, disco ball, greater shout, mass suggestion, irresitable. DC's for dancing ball and mass suggestion will be 27 and 28. DC for fear will be 25.
I will take 2 levels of spell pen enhancements, bringing spell pen to 16 +2 feat + 3 DQ necklace +2 enhance = 23.
With PA off, for noncasters, Attack roll at level 16 will be 12 BAB +7 STR +9 songs +5 weapon +1 haste +1 rage +1 WF= 36, not bad.

I am considering taking Heighten instead of Spell Pen. This would reduce my Spell Pen to 23, but increase my DCs for all spells to 29. With the DQ necklace I should be ok for mana. What do the experts think about that?

Thoughts or comments welcome. As he is currently only level 4, it's not to late to reroll or make changes.

Thank you.

[skraus1]

Why the 13 int? You're a human which means you will get 9 skill points a level. Isn't that a bit excessive? You could put those points into str or cha and be better off. There are probably better weapons than the dreamspitter as well

[wiglin]

If we are talking about the grandfather of battlebards,

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ddo.com

You should go back to the pre-release forums, or just after.

I remember a few battlebards who went against the norm that was the kizer crowd control bard.

Varis was posting about soloing with his battlebard the first month the game was out. Not to take anything away from anyone else.

[geezee]

As far as the INT goes, I decided that I wanted 9 skills, and worked backwards. I could trade 2 INT for 1 STR, or 3 for 1 CHA, but it didnt seem to make much sense. To make a dif of 1 mod for STR (2 points of STR), I would have to drop INT by 4, and give up 2 skills. I suppose I could give up haggle and hide, but meh. The hassle of having to transfer items to and from another character, and the hassle of casting invis instead of using the skill isnt really worth +1 to hit and damage. Close call though, and some people might prefer the STR.

As far as the weapon goes, I was planning to use slash until I got the Dreamsplitter. If it turns out that cleave isnt so great on a dreamsplitter, I may change feats back to slash and go for a SOS. That's pretty easy to fix.

[wiglin]

27 and 28 DC's will work, but I have failed spells with a DC32 sorcerer enough to not even want to attempt to live with anything lower. This is why spellsinger is such a nice fit for a casting bard. Remember that you can auto crit anything you can hold as well, so you can still mellee.

I would take heighten over spell penetration and see how it worked out. Though both are important, and with bards lack of conjuration spells being able to bypass sr is very important. I would probably drop IC:Blunt and take heighten. By the time you can really get the dreamsplitter effect to make a difference you probably would have been able to vorpal the mob.

[geezee]

If we are talking about the grandfather of battlebards,

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ddo.com

You should go back to the pre-release forums, or just after.
,
I remember a few battlebards who went against the norm that was the kizer crowd control bard.

Varis was posting about soloing with his battlebard the first month the game was out. Not to take anything away from anyone else.

That link does not work for me. Why should I go back to any old forums? Maybe you should go back to them and report your findings.

My first bard was based on the Kiser cc build, and it was not a battlebard in the current sense of the word, as it really didnt have any melee DPS. Ramises is STR-based, not CHA based like Kiser. I found that Kiser build to be weak and frustrating to play. When I started playing STR based bards, my enthusiasm for the class was renewed.

I dont remember Varis' build. Was it also STR-based and did it really come out before Ramises?

[wiglin]

That link does not work for me. Why should I go back to any old forums? Maybe you should go back to them and report your findings.

My first bard was based on the Kiser cc build, and it was not a battlebard in the current sense of the word, as it really didnt have any melee DPS. Ramises is STR-based, not CHA based like Kiser. I found that Kiser build to be weak and frustrating to play. When I started playing STR based bards, my enthusiasm for the class was renewed.

I dont remember Varis' build. Was it also STR-based and did it really come out before Ramises?

Varis rolled a barb/bard

Rob-Something rolled a bard/barb (aka the Scald) (Pre-release beta forums when we had 1 forum for all the classes.)

I rolled a bard (Jak and Xo) on the Adar founders guild.

Kahbel's Warchanter-A little later though right around mod-3, but his was the closest to the current warchanters that fill the forums. He even used the name before the enhancements were released.

Their were multiple posts about soloing with the battlebard even in the midst of the kizer cc bard, by which I was not telling you to roll...lol, but even that template started with a 14 str to help get through the lower levels, so it had mellee potential with max cha using todays loot. Con was a dump stat back then though because ac was king.

I was just disagreeing with your statement on any one person being the grandfather of a type of build.

If I had to say which was first it would have been the Scald build that was floating around the pre-release beta forums. In fact multiple people complained about losing the information when the the forums made the switch right around release time.

[wiglin]

Back to your build.

40umd and Warchanter songs alone will warrant your party slot in the current end game. Everything else is play style and preference.

[geezee]

Thanks for the blurry history of battlebards. I'm still not sure whether or not I stand corrected... Glad to know I'm not the only one whose memory is growing dim from drink.

I seem to recall Kiser's build being finesse. That was considered battlebard in those days. Of all those you mentioned, Ramises is the only one I still see around.

[wiglin]

Thanks for the blurry history of battlebards. I'm still not sure whether or not I stand corrected... Glad to know I'm not the only one whose memory is growing dim from drink.

I seem to recall Kiser's build being finesse. That was considered battlebard in those days. Of all those you mentioned, Ramises is the only one I still see around.

Not sure what you mean, but my memory is quite clear.

It doesn't really matter who is still around if we are talking about the grandfather of a build, but I am still around, and Varis is still around although I believe he has since retired that build.

Kizer did not go finesse. I had a few conversations with him about his build. I was posting the 1rogue/9bard trapsmith bard at the time, and he we were talking about how it would stand up in the von's.

Gren also came out and helped make the bardbarian concept even more popular right after mod4 was released.

Many have contributed to the battlebards. Too say any one person was the grandfather would not be correct.

[Aspenor]

Ramises is a freakin' thieving cleric!!!!

Nikke was the battle bard, the most well-known bard on Argo.

And Nick is a noob.

Tinted Faces r da roxorz.

That is all.

Oh yeah...IDENTIFY YOURSELF!!!!

[geezee]

Not sure what you mean, but my memory is quite clear.

It doesn't really matter who is still around if we are talking about the grandfather of a build, but I am still around, and Varis is still around although I believe he has since retired that build.

Kizer did not go finesse. I had a few conversations with him about his build. I was posting the 1rogue/9bard trapsmith bard at the time, and he we were talking about how it would stand up in the von's.

Gren also came out and helped make the bardbarian concept even more popular right after mod4 was released.

Many have contributed to the battlebards. Too say any one person was the grandfather would not be correct.

Blurry means we cant really remember who did what at what time. You are diputing my claims but not offering a specific timeline or relevant details of builds. If anyone really posted an 18 STR bard on this forum before Ramises, who was it and when did they post the build? I'm talking way before Mod 4. I started playing the game within the first month of release.

This thread was not intended to be a history of battlebards on DDO forums. In order to avoid complete derailment and the paternity testing of all living battle bards, I will amend my claims. Of the founding battlebards, Ramises is the only character who has not been retired. He is the grandfather of all of my battlebards. You can credit whoever you want for your builds. But thanks for at least attempting to keep the history straight.

BTW, besides crediting Ramises, the other purpose of this thread was to get feedback about this build. I'm hoping we can get back to that.

FYI this is Geezer, non-swimming noob and co-designer of the Icy build.

Have a nice day.

[wiglin]

Blurry means we cant really remember who did what at what time. You are diputing my claims but not offering a specific timeline or relevant details of builds. If anyone really posted an 18 STR bard on this forum before Ramises, who was it and when did they post the build? I'm talking way before Mod 4. I started playing the game within the first month of release.

This thread was not intended to be a history of battlebards on DDO forums. In order to avoid complete derailment and the paternity testing of all living battle bards, I will amend my claims. Of the founding battlebards, Ramises is the only character who has not been retired. He is the grandfather of all of my battlebards. You can credit whoever you want for your builds. But thanks for at least attempting to keep the history straight.

BTW, besides crediting Ramises, the other purpose of this thread was to get feedback about this build. I'm hoping we can get back to that.

FYI this is Geezer, non-swimming noob and co-designer of the Icy build.

Have a nice day.

My thoughts on the build specifically also posted earlier.

27 and 28 DC's will work, but I have failed spells with a DC32 sorcerer enough to not even want to attempt to live with anything lower. This is why spellsinger is such a nice fit for a casting bard. Remember that you can auto crit anything you can hold as well, so you can still mellee.

I would take heighten over spell penetration and see how it worked out. Though both are important, and with bards lack of conjuration spells being able to bypass sr is very important. I would probably drop IC:Blunt and take heighten. By the time you can really get the dreamsplitter effect to make a difference you probably would have been able to vorpal the mob.

40umd and Warchanter songs alone will warrant your party slot in the current end game. Everything else is play style and preference. The build will work fine, and with your sneaking ability you will be able to have fun soloing some of the higher level quests. You could apply Ghosts's solo tactics to this build. and then just dps the named mobs that are needed for quest completion.

[geezee]

Good feedback, Wiglin, thanks. I will prolly take your advice and take heighten instead of IC. As the melee focus of this build is more AOE than DPS, I'm thinking vorpal is prolly a better choice than dreamsplitter. And vorpal is not affected by IC.

The reason why I was thinking warchanter instead of spellsinger is that I hate the duration of the spellsinger songs. At end-game, it will be nigh impossible to keep that song up all the time. Same with the DR warchant song. The usefulness of these songs is limited by their inability to be extended by lingering song. So now I'm basically choosing between 100 mana and 2 UMD versus +1 to hit and +2 damage from my IC, which is a lot easier to keep up for a while. This guy's attack roll is slightly subpar compared to other bards I'm used to playing. But with PA off most of the time (dont need it for vorpal or other effects), he should be ok I guess.

The tough thing on this type of character is finding the right balance of melee and cc. I made a STR-based spellsinger, and I think that the CHA-based warchanter is more effective. Plus that DR song will help me survive a bit longer when I charge in and cleave/great cleave everything that moves. Close call, though, and I havent completely decided on warchanter or spellsinger.

[EinarMal]

I would drop force of personality for heighten. I like having heigthen it opens up a few good casting options from low level spells. Glitterdust is great because it is AOE and has no SR check. Fear is great because it is much faster casting compared to Otto's Sphere. Fear is a great, holy **** spell, when you need some of the mobs to go away immediately.

(This is a little off)
I will take 2 levels of spell pen enhancements, bringing spell pen to 16 +2 feat + 3 DQ necklace +4 enhance = 25.

The enhancement is only +1 per level so
I will take 2 levels of spell pen enhancements, bringing spell pen to 16 +2 feat + 3 DQ necklace +2 enhance = 23.

Anyway if you stick with AOE spells, your DC should be fine, as will your spell penetration.

[geezee]

Thanks for the correction, Einer Mal. I will edit the OP.

I guess I could drop soundburst or heal moderate for glitterdust. I dont have a level 3 healing spell, and I like soundburst because it hits the fort save. I havent played around with greater shout yet, so I dont know if it's a good replacement for soundburst, or if I will be better off with both.

FOP has to stay, for a couple reasons. The secondary reason is the increased will save, which is crucial for soloing. The main reason is that it frees up an equipment slot for all kinds of other goodies instead of a WIS item. Bard is easily the class shortest on equipment slots. I would rather drop IC than FOP on this character. Another option would be to go spellsinger and take heighten instead of WF.

[wiglin]

Good feedback, Wiglin, thanks. I will prolly take your advice and take heighten instead of IC. As the melee focus of this build is more AOE than DPS, I'm thinking vorpal is prolly a better choice than dreamsplitter. And vorpal is not affected by IC.

The reason why I was thinking warchanter instead of spellsinger is that I hate the duration of the spellsinger songs. At end-game, it will be nigh impossible to keep that song up all the time. Same with the DR warchant song. The usefulness of these songs is limited by their inability to be extended by lingering song. So now I'm basically choosing between 100 mana and 2 UMD versus +1 to hit and +2 damage from my IC, which is a lot easier to keep up for a while. This guy's attack roll is slightly subpar compared to other bards I'm used to playing. But with PA off most of the time (dont need it for vorpal or other effects), he should be ok I guess.

The tough thing on this type of character is finding the right balance of melee and cc. I made a STR-based spellsinger, and I think that the CHA-based warchanter is more effective. Plus that DR song will help me survive a bit longer when I charge in and cleave/great cleave everything that moves. Close call, though, and I havent completely decided on warchanter or spellsinger.

Agreed. I know you mentioned you may not be running alot of shroud, but warchanter > spellsinger in the shroud. The additional dps and damage reductions really adds up. Of course spellsinger is still good. I had a 28 point str based battle bard that went spellsinger but I played him during mod4 when I was the only mellee in the group...lol

I also like FoP for the increase saves, but I like to have solid saves.

I agree with Einer on glitterdust, it is a conjuration spell so it bypasses sr and works on the undead. Very underused spell. The mobs will still head towards you like they can see you, but they will miss alot more and the rogues in the party will get sneak attacks on each hit.

[geezee]

Anyone have any thoughts on soundburst versus greater shout? Is greater shout a viable substitute? Or should I just drop the level 2 healing spell for glitterdust and keep soundburst?

[maddmatt70]

It is the usual build with the melee/cc orientation that I have come to expect from some of you guys, but can't do either phenomenally well. The good news is you do have a starting con of 16 and can actually hit 320+ hp with the right raid loot so you are able to go melee (normal shroud part 5 with fireshield) in some places others can't and you do have warchanter songs so you are actually halfway decent in the shroud, hmm. Your cc abilities are questionable, but I suppose if you pick and choose the right mobs you can use them some. I agree with the int attribute comment better to use that in some other attribute...

[maddmatt70]

Anyone have any thoughts on soundburst versus greater shout? Is greater shout a viable substitute? Or should I just drop the level 2 healing spell for glitterdust and keep soundburst?

Yes definitely greater shout is a viable substitute..

[maddmatt70]

Thanks for the correction, Einer Mal. I will edit the OP.

I guess I could drop soundburst or heal moderate for glitterdust. I dont have a level 3 healing spell, and I like soundburst because it hits the fort save. I havent played around with greater shout yet, so I dont know if it's a good replacement for soundburst, or if I will be better off with both.

FOP has to stay, for a couple reasons. The secondary reason is the increased will save, which is crucial for soloing. The main reason is that it frees up an equipment slot for all kinds of other goodies instead of a WIS item. Bard is easily the class shortest on equipment slots. I would rather drop IC than FOP on this character. Another option would be to go spellsinger and take heighten instead of WF.

Well if you start running the shroud some and are willing to make a few items make a neg + pos item which gives you wisdom.. You can make a wizardry 6, +6 wisdom, +1 int skills, +2 charisma skills item without too much trouble/just 2 upgrades...

[geezee]

Ramises is a freakin' thieving cleric!!!!

Nikke was the battle bard, the most well-known bard on Argo.




****, youre right. Never was very good with names. Rameses is the guy on the forums. Oh well. How do I rename the thread? LOL

[geezee]

It is the usual build with the melee/cc orientation that I have come to expect from some of you guys, but can't do either phenomenally well.

Well I'm glad you are finally beginning to understand the concept of the Bard class, Matt. And thanks for the good feedback.

[Delt]

Well I'm glad you are finally beginning to understand the concept of the Bard class, Matt. And thanks for the good feedback.

Sarcastic reply, but he's right...

Stats are spread thin (hurting both melee and casting), feats are melee focused (hurting casting, just so you can try to pull off a aoe stun + dreamsplitter combo, which is all pretty counter-productive if actually think about it). None of it makes alot of sense or ends up with much synergy. Sorry, that's the honest feedback.

I mean, you could simply just focus on the casting side, put those feats to good use, just Hold your targets AND still wield a dreamsplitter...it's the same outcome, just more optimized.

Also, Blunt is cool to be different (and the more people actually using them, the more people will complain and make Turbine get off their butt and fix em)...but it's sub optimal. Staffs are further hurt by not functioning as proper two-handed weapons.

Finally, I think you'll find that even with a +3 CON tome, ML helm, favor, GFL ring and, hell, even a shroud item - AOE Stun/Cleave/G. Cleave combo is going to have you gaining aggro you can't handle end game, UNLESS you have another melee there taking it back with the same C/GC combo (or GTHF w/ nice twitch skills or intimidate). You are already building yourself into a tight niche as it is...now you are going to be in the position where you NEED a specific tank to support your playstyle. Very few pure bards can pull off the tank role in group...this isn't one of them. 6 CR20+ things ****ed off at you is gonna = your stone in a backpack more than you like. /shrug

[Delt]

Yes definitely greater shout is a viable substitute..

Not as far as I remember. He wants a stun effect and as far as I know, G. Shout is just a pretend stun (I assume it's broken and not intended).