a monks role...

[teapotdome]

usually this is the post about paladins:
as a pen and paper player with a buddy who is monk obsessed, i still don't see where they will fit in a standard ddo party. usually a six man party is:
cleric - healer
wiz/sorc - sizzle and cc, warforged healing
rogue - pesky traps and locks, caster control
2-3 tanks - dps and walls, agro management, intimidate

i'd take 3 fighter, 3 paladins, 3 rangers etc in most quests.....but 3 monks? um....
i sub some out depending on the quest (i.e. bard if there will be beholders) but who do you lose to make room for a monk. i know a lot of it depends on the secondary characteristics (rogues still fight, rangers and bards help heal etc), but in high level content its usually all about the vorpals, paralyzers, banishers, disruptors, etc.

a monk getting elemental damage doesn't seem the same. (no, you don't all have vorpal monk weapons waiting in the bank, they don't work on the boss anyway)

i dont know how the secondary characteristics in ddo will stack up but are the just gonna rock for solo play? or with their dex are they all gonna end up with a rogue splash?

would i take a monk to madstone? doubt it. the pit? sure. stk? yup. running with the devils? not so much.
so im looking for your opinions about where as a monk you think people will grab you up.

in what quests do you guys think a monk would be a first choice asset (and who would they replace) and what quest do the just not have a place or are b-string at best?

[sigtrent]

Well... in D&D monks have either a high survival rate or a very low one. They tend to be punished for getting too brave because they don't run high HP or AC at low levels.

At high levels they can actualy be quite hard to kill with good AC, great saves, and lots of immunities to this and that.

They are solid damage dealers but rarely the prime DPS. They tend to do best in a roll of the mobile combatant able to slip past heavy hitters and take out casters and the like.

In DDO that isn't quite so essential. I think monks are going to be off tank DPS characters, much like a rogue, ranger or paladin who isn't specced out for nothing but damage. I imagine high DPS monks are possible but like high DPS rogues they will be vulnerable unless built as dwarves wtih toughness and all that good stuff.

At high levels in DDO I don't usualy notice huge differences between different DPS melee classes. Each has an edge here or there but overall they fill a common roll. Monks will be in there with the rest of them, its just that they will play and equip very differently. Their actual function won't change much. As a specialyt they are still good anti caster combatants able to take agro on casters and fight in area damage effects without batting an eyelash.

[Invalid_86]

Well it all depends on how they are implemented and what is implemented with them.

[captain1z]

I would fit them in the ranger/ pali slot. A secondary tank that has DPS comparable to a rogue with many of the same restrictions.

[teapotdome]

my concern there is that the dps is mitigated by being typed.....no special attacks like paralyze etc....
a rogue is way more likely to have w/p and such due to access to so many more weapons types.

[ghale]

usually this is the post about paladins:
as a pen and paper player with a buddy who is monk obsessed, i still don't see where they will fit in a standard ddo party. usually a six man party is:
cleric - healer
wiz/sorc - sizzle and cc, warforged healing
rogue - pesky traps and locks, caster control
2-3 tanks - dps and walls, agro management, intimidate

i'd take 3 fighter, 3 paladins, 3 rangers etc in most quests.....but 3 monks? um....
i sub some out depending on the quest (i.e. bard if there will be beholders) but who do you lose to make room for a monk. i know a lot of it depends on the secondary characteristics (rogues still fight, rangers and bards help heal etc), but in high level content its usually all about the vorpals, paralyzers, banishers, disruptors, etc.
[/COLOR]

This already shows how limited your current perspective of the game is. A rogue for just traps/locks? If you have 1 tank with intimdate filling the other melee with rogues will get you the most DPS in your group.

You would take 3 paladins but not 3 monks? Haven't you seen all the "oh woe is me" Paladin threads? Obviously paladins don't feel they bring much so why you would want to bring 3 is beyond me.

Vorpals, paralyzers, disruptors, etc. come on Kamas which monks can use, I think they only lose out on banishing except for maybe a quarterstaff (for weapons they're proficient with). Not to mention most of these weapons have relatively little to do with class as any character can use them with the exact same potential.

Open up your groups to more variation and you'll find that the world is a lot bigger, with plenty of room for monks.

[captain1z]

monks will be able to use kamas/q-staff/ shuriken and any weapon variation that comes with that

Their hand attacks are fast and lawfully aligned with a chance to stun on every attack... some sort of weighted feat

enhancements are possible to increase damage / stun percentage and possible add damage types to their attacks

(admantine fist/silver fist..... maybe even

Hand of the master - the monk has studied many techniques to deafeat the varied opponents he may face and has learned to bypass many DR types. Hands have a transmuting affect. (totally ficticious btw)

The damage will be in the crits .. special abilities may support this with stat debuffs


just my theory.. mostly unsupported

[Vormaerin]

If they are going for stat damage or paralysis, they have weapons options so that's not a really big problem though I suppose w/p specifically is out if they want to use flurry of blows.

The basic thing that monks have is a wide range of special attacks (stunning blow, trip, etc). That, and a lack of enslavement to equipment in p&p. The latter is heavily diluted in DDO (because everyone has uber gear, so the monk still needs some to keep up) and the former isn't very in vogue these days. If they address the issues making trip, stunning blow, etc less than exciting then monks will have that role pretty covered.

They are apparently getting a variety of other special attacks, so we'll just have to see what they can actually do. But off tank is the most likely role for them.

[teapotdome]

This already shows how limited your current perspective of the game is. A rogue for just traps/locks? If you have 1 tank with intimdate filling the other melee with rogues will get you the most DPS in your group.

im generalizing to illustrate an approach to party forming. most of my toons are rogues. i know them well. don't be specific (hard to be when the class is just speculation), be vague. if you want i can leave out the classes if its confusing for you. let's say it this way "monks won't be healers or ranged, probably not high ac tanks, obviously not casters or buffers. so supporting tank?" a ranger can do that and range and heal. a paladin can do that and heal with area buffs. a rogue can do that and traps and umd buffs/heals. a bard can do that and heal and buff. and you chose to ignore the part about caster control.

You would take 3 paladins but not 3 monks? Haven't you seen all the "oh woe is me" Paladin threads? Obviously paladins don't feel they bring much so why you would want to bring 3 is beyond me.
i play a paladin too...so i know those threads are junk. its play style. i support and backup heal/buff. but the monk is a guess since neither of us are playing them in ddo right now. it may come down to play style in the end....like it is most of the time. and i didnt say id not take 3 monks, i asked where you would. be specific please.

Vorpals, paralyzers, disruptors, etc. come on Kamas which monks can use, I think they only lose out on banishing except for maybe a quarterstaff (for weapons they're proficient with). Not to mention most of these weapons have relatively little to do with class as any character can use them with the exact same potential.

Open up your groups to more variation and you'll find that the world is a lot bigger, with plenty of room for monks.

captain1z and vormaerin are on the right track. with that said, what quests would you want them for, and which not? if you want them for all, just say "all". im not even asking why. just curious what all the new monks can expect lfm wise....will they have a hard time finding a party, will somebody else be out of a job, or will monks be the must have of the season?

[Jondallar]

I am definately taking Monks on Old Sully's Grog, Goodblaades and Lowroad

[Yuhjn]

The guys I play with who are really good players, I dont care what they bring. They can bring a 6 sorc 6 fighter 2 cleric if they want, their skill at the game more than makes up for whatever toon they have in the group.

A poor player comes in, and it doesnt matter what kind of build he has, he's a liability.

The good players can play monks in my groups anytime... or any class for that matter.

The toon doesnt matter, it's the player behind it.

[Snoggy]

usually this is the post about paladins:
as a pen and paper player with a buddy who is monk obsessed, i still don't see where they will fit in a standard ddo party. usually a six man party is:
cleric - healer
wiz/sorc - sizzle and cc, warforged healing
rogue - pesky traps and locks, caster control
2-3 tanks - dps and walls, agro management, intimidate

Monks will fill the role of DPS just like any other DPS class.

If you have an intimitank in the group doing the aggro management, then the other two "tank" slots can go to anyone who does DPS. Anyone. That could be a battlebard. A rogue. A ranger. A barbarian. A monk.

And even then, it only matters in difficult or higher level quest situations.

And even then, it only matters a little bit since skill can overcome most of those potholes.

Monks are fine.


running with the devils? not so much.

That quest seems tailor-made for monks, being that monks are supposed to be specialists in taking on enemy spellcasters, which that quest is chock full of.

[amysrevenge]

The guys I play with who are really good players, I dont care what they bring. They can bring a 6 sorc 6 fighter 2 cleric if they want, their skill at the game more than makes up for whatever toon they have in the group.


What that guy said.

To answer the OP's question though, I'd imagine that once the shine has worn off, most LFMs will put Monk in the same role as Pal/Rgr - secondary DPS. The sort of groups that don't include Rogue when they want DPS will probably also not include Monk. The actual quest matters a lot less than the preconceptions of the party leader.

However, not having seen Monks in action yet, we could all be very very wrong about how they will fit in.

Big Mike

[Hambo]

This already shows how limited your current perspective of the game is. A rogue for just traps/locks? If you have 1 tank with intimdate filling the other melee with rogues will get you the most DPS in your group.

You would take 3 paladins but not 3 monks? Haven't you seen all the "oh woe is me" Paladin threads? Obviously paladins don't feel they bring much so why you would want to bring 3 is beyond me.

Vorpals, paralyzers, disruptors, etc. come on Kamas which monks can use, I think they only lose out on banishing except for maybe a quarterstaff (for weapons they're proficient with). Not to mention most of these weapons have relatively little to do with class as any character can use them with the exact same potential.

Open up your groups to more variation and you'll find that the world is a lot bigger, with plenty of room for monks.

Except that Monks will use them with Flurry of Fists, giving them many more chances to hit per "round".

[Kraki]

Monks are proficient with daggers as well as clubs which can have banish on them. They simply won't be able to use flurry of blows with them as they do not qualify as special monk weapons.

Kraki

Edit: Unless the rules are bent for DDO that is. I'm not expecting that much deviation though.

[flynnsane]

Well, I'm hoping they'll allow daggers to be used w/FoB in the place of the Sai. Seems reasonable to me since it's unlikely they'll add the Sai.

[Kraki]

Yes, it would be nice to have a flurry piercing weapon. In the case that we don't get one, I have a couple transmuting kamas ready if we need to bypass piercing damage that bad. :)

Kraki

[BlueLightBandit]

Well, that would certainly qualify as "the point" for the op... then again, some of us are just here to have fun, regardless of what character class is in the group.

[dameron]

Well, in PnP they're absolutely murder on casters. I don't think we'll have any problem finding spots for them, and some multiclass builds look to put up disgusting DPS while keeping a high to very high AC.

[query]

I go nuts playing a monk (and the 2 years with no monks in DDO has been hard for me even when I was not playing.)

Quite easily, monks are the tactical fighters the same way (to use a PnP reference as per the OP's theme) the swashbuckler is.
Or, think of the non babarian damager. To paraphrase Kate, monks will do the same about of damage the fighter does, just in many small hits rather than one big one in about the same amount of time. This means the focus should be on attacks/enhancements/weapons that hurt or debuff per hit and/or getting that confirmed crit/lowering your crit chance. Kamas are very weapon finessable and quite fast compared to that GA or GS swing. Monks also will have a Ki ability to sort of build up energy until at a certain point (think Final Fantasy's Limit Break) then release it for more damage. They can enter a sort of concentration state to do so, so they may "build up a charge."


So with the fury of blows, stunning blow, improved trip, cleave, great cleave (all for free BTW) the monks will get the enemies flat on their butts, killed, and the new ones already attacked while slow and dps-y is on their second or third swing.

Oh, and the're going to be able to self heal like a paladin's LOH for themselves, be immune to many things, and just Shou-Lin badass.

But after a lot of discussion we have decided and the answer to your question is:

Kaiser.

[MerlinSylver]

Unless they have changed the class considerably, a high level monk should consistently throw more damage than anyone but a Barb in rage with 2 handed weapins and Power Attack. And forget weapons!

In PnP, by the time a Monk reaches 16th level, his bare hands deal d12 damage, with a crit of 19 (naturally!). This is better than a great-axe, simply for the expanded crit range. If this characer has a level or two of fighter to give some more feats, the hand to hand damage can be even further increased. The only way in which a monk is not as capable is in their lower base attack, which they make up for with high saves. Splash a few monk levels in with cleric to get a nice AC boost. Mix it up with some ranger, and get dual wield for your hand to hand attacks, along with FoB. And elemental damage isn't the only thing they can add to their attacks. When the level cap gets raised to 18, how about Hand of Death? Can any other class just TOUCH a creature/construct and kill it? Sure, the Sorc/Wizards get the spell... but in PnP, the Death Hand ability is not a spell, nor is it even usable occasionally... every strike can be a Death's Hand.

I love every class of D&D, and have played at least ten of each class over my 25 years of gaming. I can say that if you build that monk right, he will kill far more than the fighters, and save clerics a lot of mana on heals.

[flynnsane]

Unless I'm mistaken, Merlin, Unarmed Strike is Crit on a 20 and x2 according to the SRD.

Also, by 16 a monk will be doin 2d8 with his hands, not d12.

Also, Monks get Quivering Palm at 15, not 18. The save is Fortitude: 10 + 1/2 Monk Lvl + Wis modifier. I *thought* it had limited uses per day, but couldn't find that in the SRD.

I think it very unlikely a monk will out damage *everyone* but a 2HF Barb. Many Fighters, 2WF Barbs, battle bards, and Rangers will match or exceed a monk's dmg.

Not saying this as a knock on Monks as I've been eagerly awaiting them since day 1, but wanted to correct some misinformation.

[MerlinSylver]

Thanks for your corrections... I sometimes get my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5th editions mixed up :). Not to mention all the optional and house rules that Dragon magazine has published concnerning the monk. After having checked out my book, the damage is right. But my 3.0 handbook indicates that monks increase their crit range at 12th level from 20 to 19, but that was 3.0, not 3.5...

Also, bear in mind that I did state that if build was right, the monk would out-damage most other classes, not that it would be a standard. Adding in a handful of figher levels would make that monk outrageously powerful with his bare hands. Not to mention that most monks don't wear armor, or wear light armor, they will be an inexpensive class to play.

[Reisz]

My only concern is that Monks will obsolete Fighters (not the high DPS barbarians). In PnP that would never be the case. But unless Turbine balances the enhancement system for Monks, they will get out of balance really quick.

Think about it for a moment. Most of the Monk special abilities will be gained as class feats. What does that leave for enhancements?... Better unarmed strikes, improved Monk AC, etc... At the end of the day DDO might have Monks who fight as well as a fighter, have high AC, high saves, good skills. Who needs a fighter any more?

*please note this is F.U.D. and not Fact*

Comments?

[MerlinSylver]

Fighters will still be around because Monks, as awesome as they can be in combat, cannot tank effectively. Monks have more important stats than any other class. Dex needs to be high for AC, Str for damage and hitting, Wisdom for AC and some monk powers, and even Charisma comes into play for a monk in the higher levels. Fighters can focus on one, maybe two stats to be effective, whereas most monks will need to go the route of moderation, or focus totally on one aspect of being a Monk.

[Reisz]

But le'ts recap my statement. Monks with have mid-high damage, high AC (possibly the highest in the game), better saves, evasion, and more skill points to spend in intimidate than a fighter. How does that not make a better tank?

[Reisz]

bump

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'll take any six players into any quest, and do just fine.

A Monk is not a healer, buffer, caster, or trap monkey. He may have a high Wisdom, so maybe no more waiting for Clerics to do VON5.

A monk fights with melee or ranged.

A low lvl monk is weak IMO. A high lvl one is very survivable, and with the right equipment could be an awesome combatant....maybe more so in DDO than P&P, but I won't know for sure till I see them in action.

Evasion is the best feat in the game.

I'm sure there will be many bad monks......but I'm also sure there will be many good ones.

People need to open their minds about group dynamics......

I hate forming my own groups, cause someone always says "we need another........""we can't do this with out a......"
Makes me want to boot the first guy who says something like that.

Yes we can....if you're not stupid....and maybe bring some pots.

Most fun quests I've ever done with with some really off the wall class combos. That's when you see some creativity in this game.

It may also be that the people who will try things without the so called perfect party, have a better atitude and are more fun to group with......maybe they're just more compatible with my play style....

But I for one am looking forward to that first all monk adventure.

[elraido]

And here I thought a Monks roll was to punch things. :p

[MerlinSylver]

Monks do have impressive AC, but hardly the best. A fighter with the right feats outshines a Monk in AC. For that matter, if you build your fighter with a focus, that fighter will be a far deadlier beast than the Monk... the Monk cannot take the place of a figher for lots of reasons, lower HP and potentially lower Constution does not make a good meatshield. My contention was that a monk, with the righ build, could deal more damage blow for blow than a figher, but the figher will hit, blow for blow, more often. Monks can make use of weapons if they want to sacrifice the bountiful damage, meaning that all those nice weapon effects will be taken in sacrifice of damage potential, whereas the fighter doesnt have to worry about that. You can build a good figher by maxing Str, nearly maxing Con and leaving the rest to rot, but a Monk built this way will not be a horrible toon to play, but nowhere near as good as the figher with the same stats. In order for the monk to work, at least three stats will need to be at least 14, at a minimum, whereas the figher only needs one major stat, depending on his build. Add in the fact that Monks don't get Weapon Specialization, and you come to a class that would be great to play (and MAY outshine a figter, depending on builds), but will never replace the fighter.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think some multi-class combos have potential. Wep Spec Budgeon works with unarmed strikes.....and Improved crit bludgeon.

furry Of Blows with Shuriken is something I really want to try out.

Can a WF Monk take admantine body? He might lose evasion and his ac bonus........but what about a high Str WF with an uber quaterstaff and Power Attack?

Just some things to check out.

Ftr/Monks might be able to get some good feats that would go well with a monk......but IMO a pure monk at high lvl is where they really shine.

[Reisz]

Monks do have impressive AC, but hardly the best. A fighter with the right feats outshines a Monk in AC. For that matter, if you build your fighter with a focus, that fighter will be a far deadlier beast than the Monk... the Monk cannot take the place of a figher for lots of reasons, lower HP and potentially lower Constution does not make a good meatshield. My contention was that a monk, with the righ build, could deal more damage blow for blow than a figher, but the figher will hit, blow for blow, more often. Monks can make use of weapons if they want to sacrifice the bountiful damage, meaning that all those nice weapon effects will be taken in sacrifice of damage potential, whereas the fighter doesnt have to worry about that. You can build a good figher by maxing Str, nearly maxing Con and leaving the rest to rot, but a Monk built this way will not be a horrible toon to play, but nowhere near as good as the figher with the same stats. In order for the monk to work, at least three stats will need to be at least 14, at a minimum, whereas the figher only needs one major stat, depending on his build. Add in the fact that Monks don't get Weapon Specialization, and you come to a class that would be great to play (and MAY outshine a figter, depending on builds), but will never replace the fighter.

I totally agree with you. I just wanted to point out the dangers if Turbine over powers a monk with enhancements. Think about it.

Monk enhancement (note this are just imaginary)
elemental Chi X (add elemental damage to unarmed attack)
improved monk AC (obvious)
unarmed attack bonus
unarmed damage bonus
skill boost

Right now, only a lower HP seems to be the balancing factor.

[MerlinSylver]

Maybe I am missing something about the Monks that will be in DDO... everyone keeps talking about using weapons. Why? My 15th level monk (PnP) hasn't used a weapon since he was 4th level, because nothing else he COULD use matches his damage potential without a weapon....

Is DDO going to expand the Monk's unarmed damage to the weapons they use?

[MerlinSylver]

Oh, I could easily see how ill-thought out enhancements could let the class get way out of control, which may be one of the reasons Turbine hasn't had Monks yet. The team at Turbine has been at it for a couple of years now, so I expect them to know how to balance things by now. Be sure of this: If Turbine DOES overpower the monk, I will be one happy man.

[Reisz]

Maybe I am missing something about the Monks that will be in DDO... everyone keeps talking about using weapons. Why? My 15th level monk (PnP) hasn't used a weapon since he was 4th level, because nothing else he COULD use matches his damage potential without a weapon....

Is DDO going to expand the Monk's unarmed damage to the weapons they use?

That's just it. How far will Turbine deviate from 3.5 and what are the final enhancements. I think the speculation comes from this article:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?SETVIEW=features&GAMEID=163&LOADFEATURE=1841&bhcp=1

Here is a quote if you don't want to use the link. "This class is a balance between a Shaolin monk and the traditional monk class from the tabletop Dungeons and Dragons game."

Maybe I am ignorant but the Shaolin monk reference makes me think of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon."

[Reisz]

Oh, I could easily see how ill-thought out enhancements could let the class get way out of control, which may be one of the reasons Turbine hasn't had Monks yet. The team at Turbine has been at it for a couple of years now, so I expect them to know how to balance things by now. Be sure of this: If Turbine DOES overpower the monk, I will be one happy man.

Perhaps I am not giving Turbine enough credit. I just think of the whole drow release. They were so over powered Turbine had to respond with 32pt builds.

But you are right. Two years of experience and the chance to learn from past mistakes should make a difference

[MerlinSylver]

As well it should.... however I don't see any appreciable difference between the Shaolin Kung Fu, and the class played in D&D. There are trappings that are different, of course... but I always saw the Monk class as being largely based on the characters from old Kung Fu movies (and the TV Show, starring the always ineffable David Carradine)... which 90% of the action is either a bastardized form of Do, or variations on Shaolin Kung Fu.

Dragonball (any incarnation)? That's epic Monks for ya.

[sigtrent]

But le'ts recap my statement. Monks with have mid-high damage, high AC (possibly the highest in the game), better saves, evasion, and more skill points to spend in intimidate than a fighter. How does that not make a better tank?

These are the down sides on monk...

Limited weapon selection
High AC comes at a cost in other build areas and only develops at high level
Lowish HP and no toughness enhancment (??). Only dwarven monks are going to have significant HP.

[Reisz]

High AC (or high enough to matter) is an extreme cost for any class/build. Weapon selection may not matter depending on enhancement or new equipment. (ever play NWN?)

HP is where you got me though. Totally agree.

[Ricter]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about Monks. First off, Quivering Palm is once a week in PnP, not every attack.

Second, a Monk is going to be as effective as his bankroll, moreso than any other character. They're really quite a terrible class in PnP optimizing.

Due to MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency), 3/4 BAB, and limited weapon selection / synergy, their combat ability is often poor. While other classes prefer multiple high scores, the Monk practically needs a high STR, DEX, CON and WIS. This is because of many of the monk abilities relying directly on these stats, rather than being absolutes. They need STR to get through DR and attack bonus, since they don't have any real source of extra damage and no way to really boost their attack by themselves. Since they have no armor, they're even more reliant on DEX than normal. WIS introduces the same problem, and on top of that it's required for a lot of their abilities. Since Monk AC's are usually quite terrible (Since they're running 4 stats instead of 2) and they have a pathetic d8 hit die, they also need a higher CON than most other melees.

But wait! They have increased unarmed damage! Except for their attack bonus is terrible, since they don't have the +enhancement bonus, and they're already behind because of 3/4 BAB and a lower STR. Monk weapons? Congratulations, you're now attacking as a Rogue without sneak attack and a lower attack ability score! Flurry of Blows? Welcome to TWF's forgotten cousin. Please leave it like that.

But they're great caster killers! They have great saves and tactical... stuff! Well, their most effective tactical move (grappling) doesn't even exist, and their runner up (tripping) isn't as good as it is in PnP. Saves? Sure, their bases are nice, but because they're running a bunch of stats high, they'll have lower saves than any build with Paladin 2. With all the items they have to be running, they'll be lucky to get in a resistance item.

This would all be fine, except most of the later abilities they get are really garbage. Most of them are easily replicated by cheap spells, potions, and items.

And yes, I realize these are all fixable by magic items. But then we're playing "who's bankroll is more effective" rather than which character is actually effective. Even so, monks have many more holes to fill with magic items than other classes.

In the end, one of the most passionate optimizers of Monks summed it up the best in, "The best Monk is the one that takes the fewest levels of Monk." The class is great for a few levels, but really craps out after a good start.

Now of course, this is assuming the Monk closely follows PnP, and that enhancements aren't particularly stronger for Monks than they are other classes.

WTB Druids (Or any other decent class, thanks.)

[Aspenor]

Perhaps I am not giving Turbine enough credit. I just think of the whole drow release. They were so over powered Turbine had to respond with 32pt builds.

But you are right. Two years of experience and the chance to learn from past mistakes should make a difference

Just to play devils advocate...

Have you considered Turbine may have planned it that way? That perhaps 32 pt builds were progressive and not reactive?

The fact that they were released the way they were could easily be interpreted as a progressive plan rather than an "oops we messed up."

Just saying....

[MerlinSylver]

Monks DO get enhancement bonuses to their unarmed attacks as they get higher in levels... also there are many nice items geared just for Monks that I am sure the Devs are going to introduce. I am disappointed that they wont offer some sort of grapple maneuver... but this is hardly where the monk shines. I've seen monks in my games take down golems before the fighters did, just because of their increased damage potential. Con is not that important for a monk, so it's only 3 base stats that need to be worked on (which is still rough).

Monks do make awesome caster killers, and not just because of the high saves. Every level a monk gains, he gets a new ability or more than one, and some of those abilities are things like immunity to charm, immunity to poison, self healing and others. Additionally, a caster cannot cast spells from the ground, and though that Trip option isnt as nice as grappling in PnP, I am sure that trip will have basically the same effect... especially if Turbine wants the Monks to be playable.

Flurry of Blows is a lot more akin to Cleave than it is TWF... especially considering that they stack (at least in PnP, they do). Poor attack progression? Not as good as the Fighter and deriviatives, but they still have a Cleric's progression, which is better than a rogue's. No sneak attack? Take a couple of levels of rogue, if that extra d6 stacked on the 2d8 damage they will be doing makes you feel better.

Yes, you can get a necklace that makes you immune to disease... but if you are already immune to disease, then that necklace slot can be used for something else. Sure, you might be wearing a ring that gives you a +4 to save against enchantments... but the Monk's Diamond Soul ability makes the Monk next to unenchantable.

The person who said that the best monk is the one with the least monk levels has never played a high level monk... or at least not correctly.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Maybe I am missing something about the Monks that will be in DDO... everyone keeps talking about using weapons. Why? My 15th level monk (PnP) hasn't used a weapon since he was 4th level, because nothing else he COULD use matches his damage potential without a weapon....

Is DDO going to expand the Monk's unarmed damage to the weapons they use?

Well, I try to talk in general about all lvls of play....not just capped.

But a monk's hands do not have a +5 to hit, do not do fire damage to a troll, are not cold iron, silver, ghost touch or good.

And at lvl one.....are about as good as a dagger.

[Snoggy]

Mix it up with some ranger, and get dual wield for your hand to hand attacks

?

The animations on the video interviews that we've already seen show the monk swings his second hand.

[ccheath776]

usually this is the post about paladins:
as a pen and paper player with a buddy who is monk obsessed, i still don't see where they will fit in a standard ddo party. usually a six man party is:
cleric - healer
wiz/sorc - sizzle and cc, warforged healing
rogue - pesky traps and locks, caster control
2-3 tanks - dps and walls, agro management, intimidate

i'd take 3 fighter, 3 paladins, 3 rangers etc in most quests.....but 3 monks? um....
i sub some out depending on the quest (i.e. bard if there will be beholders) but who do you lose to make room for a monk. i know a lot of it depends on the secondary characteristics (rogues still fight, rangers and bards help heal etc), but in high level content its usually all about the vorpals, paralyzers, banishers, disruptors, etc.

a monk getting elemental damage doesn't seem the same. (no, you don't all have vorpal monk weapons waiting in the bank, they don't work on the boss anyway)

i dont know how the secondary characteristics in ddo will stack up but are the just gonna rock for solo play? or with their dex are they all gonna end up with a rogue splash?

would i take a monk to madstone? doubt it. the pit? sure. stk? yup. running with the devils? not so much.
so im looking for your opinions about where as a monk you think people will grab you up.

in what quests do you guys think a monk would be a first choice asset (and who would they replace) and what quest do the just not have a place or are b-string at best?

"usually a six man party is..."
You just invalidated your whole statement. What rule or standard said 6 man parties must be 2 fighters a cleric and a caster, a rogue and ranger? I've been here since launch and for some reason this myth lingers.


Monks role
Extremely high AC, Good to hit, fast movement, and all the benefits of a paladin ( immunities ) and a rougue ( improved evasion ). I would say a tank.

[MerlinSylver]

A short sword, actually.... or rather, a light mace. Additionally, yes, when a Monk gets higher in the levels, his hands start to hit as if they did have these magical enhancements on them. Also, there are several monk variations out there that DO get elemental damage with their bare hands. It's going to be the W/P, Transmuting, and other nice effects they will lack, and only those. Again, this is if Turbine follows through the Monk from the books. If they are not, and basically just coming up with stuff out of whole cloth for the class, I will be very disappointed.

Note, I did say that he hadn't used a weapon since 4th level.... that's not high level at all. The only reason I was even using the +2 silver mace was becuase he was less than 4th level, with a +2 mace!!! In DDO, thats not much to talk about, but in a PnP, that's big news! As soon as my hands outshone my weapons, though, I gave up on weapons altogether.

[MerlinSylver]

?

The animations on the video interviews that we've already seen show the monk swings his second hand.

Perhaps, but that's probably flurry of blows at work there. In the PnP, a monk never takes off hand penalties (ever), and can attack with any part of his body (foot, knee, elbow, hand, headbutt, etc.). A monk with TWF gets to make one additional attack per round with some other part of his body than the hand he just used... and flurry of blows doesn't have any such restrictions. A flurry of blows could be a punch and a kick, two kicks, two punches, or a headbut and an elbow strike. Actually... it would be better to say that TWF is Flurry of Blow's younger cousin, since it ONLY allows an additional attack with your 'off-hand', whereas FoB allows two attacks with any part of your body, or combination thereof.

[Snoggy]

Maybe I am ignorant but the Shaolin monk reference makes me think of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon."

It shouldn't. Those aren't even monks in that movie. Li Mu Bai is a warrior, for example.

You want a movie with shaolin monks using kung-fu stick to a Shaw Brothers flick. Like Eight Diagram Pole Fighter or Master Killer.

[Snoggy]

Perhaps, but that's probably flurry of blows at work there.

Nope. It was just Kate demonstrating the monk attack chain. The second hand swings.

[MerlinSylver]

Um... you didn't get what I was saying.....

Yes, the second hand swings, that is because the Monk does not have an 'off-hand'. A monk's second, third, etc. attack with FoB can be made with any part of their body, not just the hand that has already hit. The FoB does not give the monk an extra attack per round with his main weapon... it just gives him an extra attack per round. Add TWF to the mix, and you have a monk that can strike twice with any part of his body, and once with some other part of his body. The graphics are probably more for ease of design than to indicate that he is using TWF, as it would be very labor-intensive to come up with animations for kicks, headbutts, punches, elbow strikes, knee jabs and body blocks. FoB is very much like TWF, in that it imposes a penalty to hit in order to gain extra attacks... but those attacks need not be with the same weapon/hand.

[MerlinSylver]

It shouldn't. Those aren't even monks in that movie. Li Mu Bai is a warrior, for example.

You want a movie with shaolin monks using kung-fu stick to a Shaw Brothers flick. Like Eight Diagram Pole Fighter or Master Killer.


Ah yes... the usual mistake concerning martial arts. All martial arts began as a meditative device meant to bring mind and body together into a single functioning unit. There are historic theories that state that all martial arts, whether it be Shaolin Kung Fu or Brazillian Capoeria stems from the brotherhoods of monks seeking one-ness through controled violence.

Besides which... Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon are both Shaolin styles of fighting... even if you're not a monk.

[Eldun]

Won't monks be getting a proficiency with daggers as per 3.5 DnD rules? At least after burning a feat they will get crits on 17 for banishers.

I don't think monks will have decent roles in parties at all. They will have the most limited weapons arsenol which will put them at a disadvantage to their grouping counterparts ... the rogues and rangers. They will be close to the worst in HP's of the melee bunch ... tied with rogues.

[Snoggy]

Besides which... Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon are both Shaolin styles of fighting... even if you're not a monk.

Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh's characters are definitely not monks. They're both warriors. And much of the martial arts they show in that movie are using weapons that DnD monks can't use (like swords and spears).

Ziyi Zhang's character is a thief and a warrior. Who, IIRC, only uses unarmed combat in one of the more funny scenes (out in the desert before she collapses she kind of flurry-smacks the bandit leader, but I wouldn't call that martial arts since I've seen 3rd graders use the same tactics in the schoolyard, lol).

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a wonderful movie. Lots of fun. Great visuals. But not really a good representative of a martial arts monk or a Dungeons and Dragons monk. For that, we all need to return. Return to the 36 chambers.

[Snoggy]

with FoB

She demonstrated the normal attack chain. Then a bunch of various feats, like Cleave and Whirlwind. And then a chi attack. That's all we've seen thus far on what monks can do. As well as a cursory glance at the elemental stances and some of their other feats.

[Gornin]

Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh's characters are definitely not monks. They're both warriors. And much of the martial arts they show in that movie are using weapons that DnD monks can't use (like swords and spears).

While I agree they were not monks, they both used techniques and basic styles derived from Shaolin. Many Shaolin styles use swords, usually specially designed for the style and not a straight sword, and spears are quite common as they are only a minor step up from the staff, and much of the technique is the same.

Tai Chi Chuan uses a specific sword in its higher levels of training, in fact it is called a Tai Chi sword, and is similar to a scimitar. Wing chun uses the dual wielded short sword commonly called butterfly swords, and Choy Li Fut uses a set of funky swords called Phoenix eye swords. They have a hooked end, a crescent hand guard and a dagger point sticking out of the hilt and commonly have scarves tied to them to confuse the opponent, and are also usually double wielded, even though they are the length of a long sword.

So while they were not monks (otherwise Li would have resisted the poison), their combat styles are based on Shaolin.

And a monks role is a striker/skirmisher according to how they are presented in DnD.

[Ricter]

@MerlinSylver: Do you play by a different set of rules than the 3.5 PnP Monk? Almost all of your comments about Monk abilities are flat out wrong. If you do, you should familiarize yourself with the 3.5 PnP Monk, it's a lot weaker than you think it is.

Now again, these comments are assuming the DDO Monk is close to the D&D 3.5 Monk. If they give the DDO Monk instant-super-mega vorpal at level 1, obviously it's going to be a lot better than this.


Monks DO get enhancement bonuses to their unarmed attacks as they get higher in levels... also there are many nice items geared just for Monks that I am sure the Devs are going to introduce. I am disappointed that they wont offer some sort of grapple maneuver... but this is hardly where the monk shines. I've seen monks in my games take down golems before the fighters did, just because of their increased damage potential. Con is not that important for a monk, so it's only 3 base stats that need to be worked on (which is still rough).

Increased damage potential? From what? Unarmed strike scales worse than weapon damage, not to mention its problems with DR. Let's actually see some numbers if you're going to make this claim. And yes, grapple happens to be where the Monk shines... they don't compete with a Barbarian in straight up damage numbers. 2d8 + STR is garbage compared to 1d12 + 2d6 (damage types) + 1.5 STR, especially when the barbarian's STR is going to be much better.

Doesn't need Con? Are you kidding me? How the hell does less ac and a smaller hit die mean you need less con? Not to mention your fort save is also tied to it, meaning you need a high con to maintain the claim of a high fort save. Even Paladin builds consider Con important, and they run much better saves, so don't even try that route.


Monks do make awesome caster killers, and not just because of the high saves. Every level a monk gains, he gets a new ability or more than one, and some of those abilities are things like immunity to charm, immunity to poison, self healing and others. Additionally, a caster cannot cast spells from the ground, and though that Trip option isnt as nice as grappling in PnP, I am sure that trip will have basically the same effect... especially if Turbine wants the Monks to be playable.

Immunity to charm? They get +2 to the save. That's it. Unless DDO is radically changing this, that's nothing really to write home about. Immunity to poison? Neutralize poison. Proof against poison items. Warforged. Etc. Most people are immune already. Self healing? Besides being a crappy amount of healing (2x Monk level in PnP), in a game where healing potions are so prevalent and cheap, this is practically a none issue.

Even if all of that *were* true, none of those really help against casters in the first place. Most of the time it's other kinds of spells. And sure, you can trip the caster, but so can any fighter or barbarian, and they can do it better than you! Especially considering to keep your saves high, you're not going to keep your strength as high. Also, most of the Monk tripping feats don't exist in DDO.


Flurry of Blows is a lot more akin to Cleave than it is TWF... especially considering that they stack (at least in PnP, they do). Poor attack progression? Not as good as the Fighter and deriviatives, but they still have a Cleric's progression, which is better than a rogue's. No sneak attack? Take a couple of levels of rogue, if that extra d6 stacked on the 2d8 damage they will be doing makes you feel better.

How the hell is it anything like cleave? Flurry of Blows gives an extra attack at a -2 penalty. What does TWF do? An extra attack at a -2 penalty. Yeah, you're right, those sound nothing alike :rolleyes:. Cleave is nothing like Flurry of Blows. Yes, they do stack in PnP at least. So now, not only is your attack bonus short because of a lower STR and the lower BAB, but you're -4 between TWF and Flurry of Blows. Hope you're running a vorpal, because that's the only time you're going to hit anyways.

Do you even know what the Cleric's BAB progression is? It's identical to the Rogue's. Identical. 3/4 BAB does not make a great melee attack bonus, especially when you have to skimp on your primary attack bonus ability score to cover the 3 other major ability scores to your class.

Taking levels of Rogue is exactly my point. The more levels of Monk you skip, the better the build becomes. All the way down to 2-3 Monk.


Yes, you can get a necklace that makes you immune to disease... but if you are already immune to disease, then that necklace slot can be used for something else. Sure, you might be wearing a ring that gives you a +4 to save against enchantments... but the Monk's Diamond Soul ability makes the Monk next to unenchantable.

Yeah, sure, you're immune to disease. Congratulations. Instead, you need to run 4 stat items, compared to the normal 2-3 and you're carrying extra clickies and potions just so you can actually hit stuff. You're also going to be running those +save items, because your lower ability scores and reliance on those saves being top notch means you're going to need all the help you can get. Next to unenchantable? Higher level mobs tend to have high caster levels, and the Monk's SR is nothing impressive. Also, what are you going to do for the first 12 levels? Not to mention if you dip, you're delaying that SR more, and the SR decreases.


The person who said that the best monk is the one with the least monk levels has never played a high level monk... or at least not correctly.

Correctly? I'd love to see one of these amazing monk builds from PnP... because so far you've just made up a bunch of arbitrary situations, most of them based on abilities the Monk doesn't actually have. That person wrote one of the definitive guides about PnP monks, so let's see this uber build you have that he didn't figure out. It sounds like your other melee characters were just terrible.

[RazorrX]

Ahhh Master Killer and Return to the 36th Chamber. Great Kung Fu movies. Iron Wire at the beginning of Master killer was great. Me, I am partial to the Sammo Hung Wing Chun movies, but still those two (Master Killer and return) should be in any martial arts library, along with Enter the Dragon, Chinese Connection and Fist of Legend (Jet Li's remake of Chinese Connection).

Crouching Tiger was more Wu Tang than Shaolin.

[RazorrX]

While I agree they were not monks, they both used techniques and basic styles derived from Shaolin. Many Shaolin styles use swords, usually specially designed for the style and not a straight sword, and spears are quite common as they are only a minor step up from the staff, and much of the technique is the same.

Tai Chi Chuan uses a specific sword in its higher levels of training, in fact it is called a Tai Chi sword, and is similar to a scimitar. Wing chun uses the dual wielded short sword commonly called butterfly swords, and Choy Li Fut uses a set of funky swords called Phoenix eye swords. They have a hooked end, a crescent hand guard and a dagger point sticking out of the hilt and commonly have scarves tied to them to confuse the opponent, and are also usually double wielded, even though they are the length of a long sword.

So while they were not monks (otherwise Li would have resisted the poison), their combat styles are based on Shaolin.

And a monks role is a striker/skirmisher according to how they are presented in DnD.

Tai Chi Chuan is not Shaolin. Wing Chun was developed (some say) to fight Shaolin, but shows obvious Hakka Roots. Choy Li Fut does come from Shaolin though.

Crouching Tiger was based heavily on Wu Tang arts.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, they do stack in PnP at least. So now, not only is your attack bonus short because of a lower STR and the lower BAB, but you're -4 between TWF and Flurry of Blows. Hope you're running a vorpal, because that's the only time you're going to hit anyways.
Sorry no, that is not how vorpal works.


Do you even know what the Cleric's BAB progression is? It's identical to the Rogue's. Identical. 3/4 BAB does not make a great melee attack
Sorry no, clerics have 1:1 BAB.

[Kronik]

Why I like to play a Monk,

by Kronik

Chapter 1:

Max Dex AC, Wis modifier added to AC, Combat Expertise added to AC.

Chapter 2:

Furry of blows dual wielding Vorpal sickles.

Chapter 3:

Did I mention that monks can heal themselves.

The End!

[Kaldais]

While I agree they were not monks, they both used techniques and basic styles derived from Shaolin. Many Shaolin styles use swords, usually specially designed for the style and not a straight sword, and spears are quite common as they are only a minor step up from the staff, and much of the technique is the same.

The techniques and styles from the main characters are from Wu Tang, as both Li and Michele's character are disciples from WuTang. The thief stole the fighting stye from WuTang, so Zhang's character read the book and taught herself the styles from WuTang.

Difference between WuTang and Shaolin is one is a daoist temple, the other is a bhuddist temple. Apples and oranges.



Tai Chi Chuan uses a specific sword in its higher levels of training, in fact it is called a Tai Chi sword, and is similar to a scimitar. Wing chun uses the dual wielded short sword commonly called butterfly swords, and Choy Li Fut uses a set of funky swords called Phoenix eye swords. They have a hooked end, a crescent hand guard and a dagger point sticking out of the hilt and commonly have scarves tied to them to confuse the opponent, and are also usually double wielded, even though they are the length of a long sword.

TaiJi Chuan is a fist fighting style, TaiJi Jian is a sword fighting style. There is no Tai Chi Chuan, only Tai Chi, which is a meditation routine, much like Yoga. TaiJi is a chinese term used commonly for pushing an attack away, redirecting an offense. The style is developed by WuTang's founding master in Ming Dynasty. It has nothing to do with Shaolin temple, as more often Shaolin style is considered as hard style of the Martial Arts, where TaiJi is considered to be the Soft style of the Martial Arts.


So while they were not monks (otherwise Li would have resisted the poison), their combat styles are based on Shaolin.

Again, there is no one uses Shaolin style in that movie, they uses WuTang style. I will label the characters in the movie to be fighters, and rogues, but not monks.

[ccheath776]

@MerlinSylver: Do you play by a different set of rules than the 3.5 PnP Monk? Almost all of your comments about Monk abilities are flat out wrong. If you do, you should familiarize yourself with the 3.5 PnP Monk, it's a lot weaker than you think it is.

Now again, these comments are assuming the DDO Monk is close to the D&D 3.5 Monk. If they give the DDO Monk instant-super-mega vorpal at level 1, obviously it's going to be a lot better than this.



Increased damage potential? From what? Unarmed strike scales worse than weapon damage, not to mention its problems with DR. Let's actually see some numbers if you're going to make this claim. And yes, grapple happens to be where the Monk shines... they don't compete with a Barbarian in straight up damage numbers. 2d8 + STR is garbage compared to 1d12 + 2d6 (damage types) + 1.5 STR, especially when the barbarian's STR is going to be much better.

Doesn't need Con? Are you kidding me? How the hell does less ac and a smaller hit die mean you need less con? Not to mention your fort save is also tied to it, meaning you need a high con to maintain the claim of a high fort save. Even Paladin builds consider Con important, and they run much better saves, so don't even try that route.



Immunity to charm? They get +2 to the save. That's it. Unless DDO is radically changing this, that's nothing really to write home about. Immunity to poison? Neutralize poison. Proof against poison items. Warforged. Etc. Most people are immune already. Self healing? Besides being a crappy amount of healing (2x Monk level in PnP), in a game where healing potions are so prevalent and cheap, this is practically a none issue.

Even if all of that *were* true, none of those really help against casters in the first place. Most of the time it's other kinds of spells. And sure, you can trip the caster, but so can any fighter or barbarian, and they can do it better than you! Especially considering to keep your saves high, you're not going to keep your strength as high. Also, most of the Monk tripping feats don't exist in DDO.



How the hell is it anything like cleave? Flurry of Blows gives an extra attack at a -2 penalty. What does TWF do? An extra attack at a -2 penalty. Yeah, you're right, those sound nothing alike :rolleyes:. Cleave is nothing like Flurry of Blows. Yes, they do stack in PnP at least. So now, not only is your attack bonus short because of a lower STR and the lower BAB, but you're -4 between TWF and Flurry of Blows. Hope you're running a vorpal, because that's the only time you're going to hit anyways.

Do you even know what the Cleric's BAB progression is? It's identical to the Rogue's. Identical. 3/4 BAB does not make a great melee attack bonus, especially when you have to skimp on your primary attack bonus ability score to cover the 3 other major ability scores to your class.

Taking levels of Rogue is exactly my point. The more levels of Monk you skip, the better the build becomes. All the way down to 2-3 Monk.



Yeah, sure, you're immune to disease. Congratulations. Instead, you need to run 4 stat items, compared to the normal 2-3 and you're carrying extra clickies and potions just so you can actually hit stuff. You're also going to be running those +save items, because your lower ability scores and reliance on those saves being top notch means you're going to need all the help you can get. Next to unenchantable? Higher level mobs tend to have high caster levels, and the Monk's SR is nothing impressive. Also, what are you going to do for the first 12 levels? Not to mention if you dip, you're delaying that SR more, and the SR decreases.



Correctly? I'd love to see one of these amazing monk builds from PnP... because so far you've just made up a bunch of arbitrary situations, most of them based on abilities the Monk doesn't actually have. That person wrote one of the definitive guides about PnP monks, so let's see this uber build you have that he didn't figure out. It sounds like your other melee characters were just terrible.

Then dont play a monk.
It will be one less person in the harbor who does.
Basically, whats your point. Your opinion is that monks in DDO will be gimped.
Thats your opinion. Built properly a monk will rule the day and have a 60+ ac.
In addition to several plusses they get that more than make up for the loss of BAB.
As far as DPS. Are you kidding?
1d12 at the higher levels, with plusses for elemental, plusses since their hands become lawful magical weapons, plusses for many others.
Its like a fighter that wields a +5 flaming burst, icy burst, transmuting, true law, ghost touch greatsword of greater evil outsider bane.
AND THEY get fast movement with that along with evasion, immunities, and higher saves than a paladin.
So explain this to me again please.
All that stuff on a generic fighter would take up so many clicky spots its mind numbing.

I wish they would implement the warforged feat battlefist which ups the damage progression so instead of the their fists doing 1d8 at first level they now do 1d10 and top out at 1d20.

[Kraki]

Sorry no, that is not how vorpal works.


Sorry no, clerics have 1:1 BAB.
You are incorrect.

Lets use a cut 'n paste from the new wiki for the cleric
Level BAB
1 +0
2 +1
3 +2
4 +3
5 +3
6 +4
7 +5
8 +6 / +1
9 +6 / +1
10 +7 / +2
11 +8 / +3
12 +9 / +4
13 +9 / +4
14 +10 / +5
15 +11 / +6 / +1
16 +12 / +7 / +2

As you can see, this is 3/4 BAB.
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Cleric

[MerlinSylver]

I've already stated that my knowledge of Monks comes from a variety of sources, not just 3.5... and that I sometimes get the eight sets of rules intermixed. Along with that statement was a thanks to the person who had corrected where I was wrong concerning the 3.5 rules. My contention that monks can and will be excellent characters remains intact, despite my (admittedly) fractured knowledge.

[KristovK]

Uh...wow...

First off..Cleric's BAB..3/4, straight from the 3.5 SRD, same as the Rogue, Bard and Monk, and various other base classes in various add on books and various PrC classes as well. ONLY the Fighter and it's subtypes get a straight 1/1 BAB. Clerics can mimic that with spells, but their BAB is 3/4.

Monks in PnP can be truely awesome DPS machines, if you think otherwise, well..either you've never seen one played well or haven't actually played PnP at all. Yes, 3/4 BAB...but in PnP that's actually not the drawback it might seem, and seeing players at 16th level run around with +5 weapons with multiple elemental/alignment damage types...NOT what is common outside of Monty Haul campaigns. Want a good idea of what players should actually be using at any given level in PnP, check the modules out and see the rewards, doesn't look anything like DDO's rewards.

Monks need 2, TWO, stats to be effective, Dex and Wis. Their AC is based on those, their combat is based on those, not to mention their ability/feat save DCs are based on those, in PnP. You don't need high Str to be an effective DPS Monk in PnP, take Weapon Finesse, simple as that, the base damage bare hands do takes care of the rest, especially when combined with the Ki feat, which turns the hands into Magic weapons at first, then into Lawful and Adamantine..which stacks btw, so by 16th level, bare hands are Magic/Lawful/Adamantine weapons for purposes of DR, and that's without expending any coin or feats. Gets better at Epic levels, you can take feats to get your hands to overcome more DR types, either Monk based OR General, take your pick.

Damage wise..well..at 16th level the Monk does 2d8 per blow and has 5 attacks per round, and no other class outside of casters can match that DPS from this point on in PnP. 'But what about elemental/alignment/effect damages!' you say...what about them? PnP allows all of that for Unarmed combatants, gloves, handwraps, bracers, necklaces, helmets...all of these items can be enchanted to help the Unarmed combatant, after all Monk isn't the ONLY Unarmed combatant class in D&D ya know. Brawler is a Base Class in PnP, doesn't use weapons, does more base unarmed damage then normal(but never equals the Monk) and wears armor, fun class to play, great RP options...big bad bruisers who never learned to use a weapon besides their own fists. So..no reason at all for the Monk(and anyone ELSE who fights Unarmed) to not be able to keep up with the elemental/alignment/effect damage types, it IS part of the game and has been for a long time(this stuff existed in 1st Ed and since). And Monks have Epic feats that allow them to make their Unarmed damage Slash instead of Bludgeon(and they can decide which to use at any time!) and another Epic feat turns their Unarmed strikes into Vorpal strikes..so Monks can cover almost every single damage type/effect in the game..except Puncture...but there's Monk variant rules that make their strikes do Pierce damage..also Slash..and those are pre-Epic, so... Keep in mind, in PnP, Fighter and it's subtypes max out at 4 attacks per round, barring TWF builds, while the Monk maxes out at 5. Fighter types will max out at 1d12 or 2d6 per blow, Greataxe/Greatsword, Monks max out at 1d20 per blow. TWF going 2 Dwarven Axes or Bastard Swords can do 1d10 per blow and get more then 5 blows per round, up to 8, but it's still less base DPS then the Monk. Oh..and the Monk has no negs associated with FoB starting at level 9, while the TWF builds have negs to their attacks AND to their damages(0.5 Str bonus while TWF, FoB doesn't incur this).

Now..what we'll get in DDO...not certain, we've only seen the pre-Alpha Monk, can't even make one at 1st level in the build we've been shown. FoB is an always-on feat, we can see Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow as feats despite those being the same thing in PnP, there's the entire Chi bit...we don't know, but we did see the Monk kicking some ass pretty handily in the video and that was with NOTHING to boost To Hit and Damage, so it doesn't look like the Monk will be worthless in the DPS department. Monk's part in a party...well...that'll depend on the build and the player won't it, same as it does for EVERY class we have in the game right now. I've seen Barbarians that were better off left at the tavern when we entered a quest and I've seen Wizards that didn't have a clue about what spells should be used at all, Rogues who couldn't pick a lock, find a trap or disable one when someone ELSE found it for them, Paladins and Rangers who never EVER used healing wands or their own spells for that matter, and Fighters who couldn't hit the ground if they dropped their sword. It really is the player more then the build that makes a character useful or useless, you can have the best build and gear and STILL be worthless...

[MerlinSylver]

Thank you, Kristov... you were able to say just what I've been meaning to say... with lots of bunny trails and misinformation along the way.

[Angelus_dead]

You are incorrect.

Lets use a cut 'n paste from the new wiki for the cleric
No, I am correct, and you guys are wrong. Anyone who thinks a cleric's BAB is determined by his BAB chart is in trouble. Have you ever played in combat and gone to the character sheet to see your BAB?

Try it. You'll see a big fat 16.

[KristovK]

No, I am correct, and you guys are wrong. Anyone who thinks a cleric's BAB is determined by his BAB chart is in trouble. Have you ever played in combat and gone to the character sheet to see your BAB?

Try it. You'll see a big fat 16.

As I pointed out Angelus, a SPELL doesn't equal the BAB, it simply allows the Cleric to MIMIC the BAB of the Fighter and it's subtypes. Clerics in PnP AND in DDO follow the 3/4 BAB, check your character sheet when you are NOT using that spell and you'll see it quite clearly. You know this, not sure why you are posting this other then to be antognistic, please stop.

[Angelus_dead]

Keep in mind, in PnP, Fighter and it's subtypes max out at 4 attacks per round, barring TWF builds, while the Monk maxes out at 5. Fighter types will max out at 1d12 or 2d6 per blow, Greataxe/Greatsword, Monks max out at 1d20 per blow. TWF going 2 Dwarven Axes or Bastard Swords can do 1d10 per blow and get more then 5 blows per round, up to 8, but it's still less base DPS then the Monk.
Is that some kind of joke? Fighters doing 2d6 per hit? Ha ha...?

Try more like 2d6 + 4 + 4 + 9 + 10.

[Angelus_dead]

As I pointed out Angelus, a SPELL doesn't equal the BAB, it simply allows the Cleric to MIMIC the BAB of the Fighter and it's subtypes.
That isn't true. The spell doesn't "mimic" BAB.. it is BAB. It's not an illusion that makes you pretend to have BAB when you really don't. You DO have the BAB. It is real.

Trying to judge classes on the basis of clerics having 3/4th BAB is starting from an invalid premise. The list of situations where clerics cannot cast Divine Power is much shorter than that which they can. It's like judging Barbarians by assuming they're not raged.

[Reisz]

Just to help clarify the issue. Clerics as a class have a BAB of 3:4. With that spell, their BAB becomes 1:1. I think that Angelus's point is that this is not just a simple to hit bonus, but an actual BAB adjustment for the duration of the spell. That is to say they would receive addition attacks, etc...

[KristovK]

That isn't true. The spell doesn't "mimic" BAB.. it is BAB. It's not an illusion that makes you pretend to have BAB when you really don't. You DO have the BAB. It is real.

Trying to judge classes on the basis of clerics having 3/4th BAB is starting from an invalid premise. The list of situations where clerics cannot cast Divine Power is much shorter than that which they can. It's like judging Barbarians by assuming they're not raged.

Any Cleric can be dispelled at any time, therefore their spell MIMICS the BAB of a Fighter, it is not equal to it, not to mention that no sp = no Divine Power = 3/4 BAB.

As for the damage of a Fighter using gs/ga, yes, it's 2d6/1d12, any bonuses are subjective, Monks can attain many of the same bonuses, depends on build, buffs, and gear. Everyone just assumes that Monks can do X damage and that's IT..but that's not true, as I said, any bonuses you can put on a melee weapon, you can have for a Monk with unarmed combat, so you have to use the base damage and that's it, otherwise you can go all day saying 'but what about X or Y or..' it's a never ending line of what if's. In PnP, quite simply, the Monk has the highest DPS after level 16 that any melee character can attain, number of attacks and base damage simply can't be exceeded by any other melee class. I've seen PnP Monks that were Str builds, I've seen Dex and I've seen Wis and all combinations thereof, especially when monstrous races are allowed as PCs. I've NEVER seen any non-Monk melee character in PnP that could out DPS a Monk at higher levels, just doesn't happen. PnP works differently though, 3/4 BAB isn't the big problem in combat that it is in DDO, mobs aren't running around with 5000hp at 16th level with an AC in the 50s, so the Monk can hit them consistantly and do more damage in a round then the raging Barb or spec'd out Fighter.

We only have what we've seen in the recent interviews from Connect 08...pre-Alpha build of the Monk information, nothing else, and it's not set in stone yet, it's pre-Alpha. And even with that, we saw the Monk dealing with mobs in the desert with ease, no items to boost to hit or damage, still mowed them down quite quickly and quite easily, so the Monk would appear to be a good DPS build already.

[Angelus_dead]

Monks need 2, TWO, stats to be effective, Dex and Wis. Their AC is based on those, their combat is based on those, not to mention their ability/feat save DCs are based on those, in PnP. You don't need high Str to be an effective DPS Monk in PnP, take Weapon Finesse, simple as that, the base damage bare hands do takes care of the rest
You do need high strength to do real melee damage. One, that +6 damage per hit would be a nice combo with flurrying for 5 hits per round. -30 damage per round sucks. Two, you need Power Attack to do real melee damage. The only viable core D&D melee damage without PA is Rogue Sneak Attack. And to qualify for PA, you must have strength.


Damage wise..well..at 16th level the Monk does 2d8 per blow and has 5 attacks per round, and no other class outside of casters can match that DPS from this point on in PnP.
Looking at weapon base damage as if it really mattered is a novice mistake. It's the same thinking that leads some DDO players to waste a feat on Bastard Swords.

Furthermore, looking at full attacks as if they represent typical D&D combat is another mistake. There are two general situations when a monster will allow you to take a full attack:
1. The monster is brainless, such as a zombie.
2. The monster thinks his own full attack is more dangerous than yours, such as a dragon.

If the monk's full-attack flurry is actually a threat to the monsters, then the monster can simply move 10 feet to get outside of the monk's reach. On his next turn, the monk will need to move+attack (charge) to reach the monster again, which allows him only 1 hit, and denies the benefits of flurry. The super-high movement speed of the monk doesn't help in this regard- so what he only had to move 10 feet and he has 80 feet of movement left? The fact that you moved at all means no flurry for you.

D&D combat rarely involves full attacks, if the players are good (where "good" means using the tactical rules to their advantage). It is likely that a lot of DMs play monsters as if they are idiots who stand there allowing monks to kick him in the face all day long... but the rules give no reason for that to work.


'But what about elemental/alignment/effect damages!' you say...what about them? PnP allows all of that for Unarmed combatants, gloves, handwraps, bracers, necklaces, helmets...all of these items can be enchanted to help the Unarmed combatant, after all Monk isn't the ONLY Unarmed combatant class in D&D ya know.
No. Those magic items are not allowed by the PnP rules in the DMG, aside from the single Helm of Brilliance item, which is overpriced to use solely as a melee buff.

A DM may certainly decide to allow the creation of such items, but that would be inventing new rules... similar to how Turbine is inventing new rules by giving monks the Ki bar for powers.


Brawler is a Base Class in PnP, doesn't use weapons, does more base unarmed damage then normal(but never equals the Monk) and wears armor, fun class to play, great RP options...big bad bruisers who never learned to use a weapon besides their own fists.
There is no class called "brawler" in any of the 175 classes in PnP. There is also no base class focused on unarmed damage, aside from the monk. Read the list:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/class


we don't know, but we did see the Monk kicking some ass pretty handily in the video and that was with NOTHING to boost To Hit and Damage, so it doesn't look like the Monk will be worthless in the DPS department.
Um, the video of the monk running in the desert fighting gnolls?

That guy did not have DPS. He was a level 16 character fighting CR 8 monsters (too weak to give him any XP). A barbarian fighting those gnolls uses an average of 1.8 swings to kill one... with a 25% chance of one-shotting the gnoll on his first swing.

[Gornin]

My various sifu/sensei/semonyims usually agreed that Wing Chun was developed by a nun. It was later modified by adding the Wu Tang elements and also incorporated into Jeet Kune Do. Not arguing, just telling you what I have been taught.

I am currently under instruction for Pai Lum (White Dragon) and Tai Chi. The lower forms of Tai Chi are definately soft/mental and have basis in Shaolin from what I can tell of my various education. The higher forms start using weapons and harder strikes more in line with the Wu Tang forms, so it seems it to was modified at the higher levels.

My base is in Choy Li Fut, but I have taken instruction for fair periods of time in Penjak silat, Kuk Sul Won, Judo, Aikido, Kenjutsu, and that Isreali combat form that I can never remember, something like Baga Magaw. That one is brutal. Choy definately starts out very soft as expected of a Shaolin style, but it progresses into a much more harder form as you gain ranks and has many wep forms, and it is also the victim of the Wu Tang influence, due to it being a "young" long fist style.

I guess my point is, I agree they were fighters and rogues, and I had forgotton that they specifically stated they had learned from the Wu Tang, but most of the modern Kung Fu has been so integrated now that it is difficult to tell what some of them originated from. I definately see Shaolin influences in both Chows' and Lees' forms, but that may be due to the multiple styles they have learned, and it looks good on screen. My point does stand that a fair portion of the Shaolin styles did incorporate more common weapons, usually at the later ranks. Probably due to the influence of the Wu Tang styles.

That was always one of my gripes with monks in PnP. The beginning monk is very much the white belt, but I always found it difficult to incorporate the special moves like Great push, great shout, crushing claw, etc. with out giving up too much or gaining too much. At least I found it difficult to give my monks a "Style" without unbalancing them. Maybe others found a way, but my best attempt was in 2 ed when they were clerics and I created kits based on styles. It limited spell access to gain special manouvres depending on the styles. I love what they did for monks in 3/3.5, but I still feel they are very generic. Still love to play them when I get the stat rolls.

[Tallyn]

and that Isreali combat form that I can never remember, something like Baga Magaw. That one is brutal.

Krav Maga :)

[Tallyn]

That's just it. How far will Turbine deviate from 3.5 and what are the final enhancements. I think the speculation comes from this article:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?SETVIEW=features&GAMEID=163&LOADFEATURE=1841&bhcp=1

Here is a quote if you don't want to use the link. "This class is a balance between a Shaolin monk and the traditional monk class from the tabletop Dungeons and Dragons game."

Maybe I am ignorant but the Shaolin monk reference makes me think of "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon."

I know it's been brought up several times in the thread, but think more of real life Shaolin kung fu. :)

[Tallyn]

@MerlinSylver: Do you play by a different set of rules than the 3.5 PnP Monk? Almost all of your comments about Monk abilities are flat out wrong. If you do, you should familiarize yourself with the 3.5 PnP Monk, it's a lot weaker than you think it is.

Now again, these comments are assuming the DDO Monk is close to the D&D 3.5 Monk. If they give the DDO Monk instant-super-mega vorpal at level 1, obviously it's going to be a lot better than this.



Increased damage potential? From what? Unarmed strike scales worse than weapon damage, not to mention its problems with DR. Let's actually see some numbers if you're going to make this claim. And yes, grapple happens to be where the Monk shines... they don't compete with a Barbarian in straight up damage numbers. 2d8 + STR is garbage compared to 1d12 + 2d6 (damage types) + 1.5 STR, especially when the barbarian's STR is going to be much better.

Doesn't need Con? Are you kidding me? How the hell does less ac and a smaller hit die mean you need less con? Not to mention your fort save is also tied to it, meaning you need a high con to maintain the claim of a high fort save. Even Paladin builds consider Con important, and they run much better saves, so don't even try that route.



Immunity to charm? They get +2 to the save. That's it. Unless DDO is radically changing this, that's nothing really to write home about. Immunity to poison? Neutralize poison. Proof against poison items. Warforged. Etc. Most people are immune already. Self healing? Besides being a crappy amount of healing (2x Monk level in PnP), in a game where healing potions are so prevalent and cheap, this is practically a none issue.

Even if all of that *were* true, none of those really help against casters in the first place. Most of the time it's other kinds of spells. And sure, you can trip the caster, but so can any fighter or barbarian, and they can do it better than you! Especially considering to keep your saves high, you're not going to keep your strength as high. Also, most of the Monk tripping feats don't exist in DDO.



How the hell is it anything like cleave? Flurry of Blows gives an extra attack at a -2 penalty. What does TWF do? An extra attack at a -2 penalty. Yeah, you're right, those sound nothing alike :rolleyes:. Cleave is nothing like Flurry of Blows. Yes, they do stack in PnP at least. So now, not only is your attack bonus short because of a lower STR and the lower BAB, but you're -4 between TWF and Flurry of Blows. Hope you're running a vorpal, because that's the only time you're going to hit anyways.

Do you even know what the Cleric's BAB progression is? It's identical to the Rogue's. Identical. 3/4 BAB does not make a great melee attack bonus, especially when you have to skimp on your primary attack bonus ability score to cover the 3 other major ability scores to your class.

Taking levels of Rogue is exactly my point. The more levels of Monk you skip, the better the build becomes. All the way down to 2-3 Monk.



Yeah, sure, you're immune to disease. Congratulations. Instead, you need to run 4 stat items, compared to the normal 2-3 and you're carrying extra clickies and potions just so you can actually hit stuff. You're also going to be running those +save items, because your lower ability scores and reliance on those saves being top notch means you're going to need all the help you can get. Next to unenchantable? Higher level mobs tend to have high caster levels, and the Monk's SR is nothing impressive. Also, what are you going to do for the first 12 levels? Not to mention if you dip, you're delaying that SR more, and the SR decreases.



Correctly? I'd love to see one of these amazing monk builds from PnP... because so far you've just made up a bunch of arbitrary situations, most of them based on abilities the Monk doesn't actually have. That person wrote one of the definitive guides about PnP monks, so let's see this uber build you have that he didn't figure out. It sounds like your other melee characters were just terrible.

Ok, now it sounds like you're ranting and spreading misinformation. I will attempt to clarify some things here.

First off, the unarmed damage scaling is a wash in my opinion. 1d6 1-3, 1d8 4-7, 1d10 8-11, 2d6 12-15, 2d8 16-19, 2d10 20. Base damage is not bad, although with the addition of green steel items, you can get a Greatsword for 3d6 or a Maul for 2d8.

A monk will be immune to charm person at level 20 due to being considered an outsider. Admittedly, this wont be in the game 'til the end of the year, AND it won't effect spells like charm monster, but it should stop hold person. (Not hold monster)

A monk should receive Improved Trip as a free feat. A Barbarian would need to spend a feat on it, as would a fighter. (Straight barbarians are already feat starved, although the fighter can take it no problem)

Flurry of blows works differently than you describe it. At first it's a -2 to hit for an extra attack. When you get to 5th level the penalty lessens to -1. When you get to 9th level, there is no penalty to hit for flurry of blows. When you get to 11th level, you now get another additional attack on top of the first one, making two AND there is still no penalty for flurry of blows. By the way, in PnP you CAN stack TWF and Flurry of blows for a large amount of attacks. (There is a Sage Advice article out there if you search for it)

BAB is 3/4 like you say. However, many classes can make due with 3/4 BAB without much difficulty.

A monk's SR is nothing impressive? If correctly implemented they should have SR of 10 + their monk level starting at level 13. That would be 23 SR, up to 26 at the current level cap we have. I'm not saying it's great, since it doesnt affect damage spells, but I think it's definitely not bad.

Ok, list of monks abilities at level 16 Straight monk:

Unarmed Damage 2d8, 20/x2, Adamantine, Lawful and Magic
Evasion and Improved Evasion
SR 26
Immunity to Disease
Immunity to Poison
Greater Flurry of Blows
Wholeness of Body (Self Heal, should be more HP healed in DDO, like Paladins LoH doing more than in PnP)
Abundant Step (Dimension Door 1/day)
Stunning Fist/Improved Grapple
Deflect Arrows/Combat Reflexes
Improved Disarm/Improved Trip
Fast Movement
+2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment
Slow Fall 80 Ft. (Bleh ok, this isnt that great for DDO)
Quivering Palm (Death Attack, Fort Save DC 10 + 1/2 Monk level + Wis Modifier)
Wisdom Bonus to AC
+3 Inherent Monk bonus to AC
+10 Base to all saves


So, why are they good versus casters? Good all around saves. Improved Evasion. 26 SR. Immunity to Poison/Disease. Fast movement. High Touch AC (Yes this is more for PnP). Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple.


Ok, now for the alternate arguments (so I dont sound like a monk fanboy). Monk in PnP are rarely what I would consider top of the line DPS. A well designed Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger will often outdps the monk. There are situations when the monk will shine, but damage usually is not one of them. However, they will be incredibly survivable, possibly more so than just a straight Paladin. Although I am probably going to make a Paladin/Monk mix of some sort :)

Oh and btw, I would think that Turbine is almost certainly going to add some of the items for monks into the game. I.e. Amulet of Mighty Fists, and some other items to make up for the lack of enhancement bonus to attack/damage and lack of prefix/suffix abilities that weapons can normally get. It would be sort of shortsighted not to. But, I guess we will wait and see. I am looking forward to it, just to add some more variety to the game.

Another thought I had, is with all the immunities/abilities you will have, it may clear up some inventory slots that you would otherwise use on Poison or Disease Immunity. So hopefully that will help the M.A.D. a little bit :)

[Tharris]

I play a ranger, and always have in PnP.

I have an animal companion, Track, Endurance, and all sorts of feats that are not in DDO.

TO make up for these in DDO, I have Bow strength, Rams Might, and both Bow and TWF feats for nothing.

I would guess that turbine will give Monks something for where they got to choose grappling as a feat line. I am sure many other things may appear we have not thougth of, making the monk attractive to play.

Where will they fit in Parties???? Wherever the party needs them to fit to get the job done. Primarliy in the area of killing, but either by making it easier for other to kill, (maybe they can paralyse with bare fists).....or pure DPS ( I can see monk belts being like Docents for WF, making the fists do more damage, or elemental damage, or even banishers or disruptors ( just swap belts as needed)).....

[Kronik]

They haven even released the Monk yet and there are already fights and arguments
about them. Gotta love the positivity around here!

Nice...

[KristovK]

AD..have you ever actually played the game outside of DDO? Seriously, I'm asking you a straight question and requesting a straight answer.

You've made numerous comments in numerous posts that lead me to believe you never have played PnP, and this is yet another one, compounded by a link to a listing of classes, 175, that is actually about half that many classes due to the duplications and NPC TITLES and doesn't include classes LISTED in the core manuals(where's the Arcane Archer, Mystic Theurge, Assassin?), yet you use it as proof that the Brawler doesn't exist? Not to mention that you keep using using DDO measures and implying that they are the same in PnP, they aren't. Full attack sequences in PnP are common, moving provokes AoOs, not a good thing, and Monks aren't exactly easy to move away from anyway, typically have init, typically have the target on the ground or grappled...yeah...moving away from a Monk in combat in PnP isn't actually a common thing. My own Monk usually grabs the first target if there are multiple and THROWS it into the next one or group, makes sure no one is running away from him in the middle of an attack sequence, not to mention it really hampers their own attacks and defense. Again..have you ever actually played PnP?

What we see in DDO is NOT a very good representation of a PnP game, the loot is WAY overpowered, the characters are WAY overpowered and the mobs..forget it, they are NOTHING like you see in PnP, 5000hp and ACs in the 50s..no, not until you are in Epic levels, NOT what you encounter at 10th level..short of a visit by a diety or dragon..ancient wyrm type, NOT what you normally run into at 10th level.

As for that Monk in the video...CR8 mobs in the desert, yes they shouldn't be much of a problem for a 16th level DDO character, since said character is going to have weapons with massive bonuses and damages, and all the other goodies that are a given in DDO. But that Monk only had SOME stat boosting items, that's it, nothing for attack and damage, and CR8 is actually a good challenge for a 16th level solo character..you SHOULD know that AD, anyone who's actually played PnP and even spent much time playing DDO knows how CR works. CR8 mob should be a challenge for 4 8th level characters to defeat. Not easy, not a walk over, it should actually put up a fight and make them work a bit...4 8th level characters. Good fight for a 16th, especially a melee base without magically enhanced weapons. But you think it was a joke that a single 16th level without any magical weapons, no spells, only stat boosting items, not even AC boosting robes, was doing it. Take your cleric out there, sans magic weapons, sans spells, sans magic armor..see if you can replicate it, same BAB after all, should be a joke for your cleric right?

[RazorrX]

My various sifu/sensei/semonyims usually agreed that Wing Chun was developed by a nun. It was later modified by adding the Wu Tang elements and also incorporated into Jeet Kune Do. Not arguing, just telling you what I have been taught.

The nun story is generally accepted as a myth. What is known for certain is that wing chun came from the red junk boats during the Ching Dynasty. The outcasts from various kung fu clans were hiding on the junk boats, often in opera troupes. It was there that the system of Wing Chun is said to have been created. Wing Chun (at least the one that most are familiar with) shares most of its theories, and power generation with hakka systems and not Shaolin. Baat cham do (the butterfly sword set) is thought by some to be a hidden hand set. If not it still has very little in common with other butterfly sword sets (such as the one in Hung Gar). There is no real Wudong influence in Wing Chun. Bruce Lee originally studied Wing Chun under Sifu Yip Man (and never finished the system). He later took what he knew and it was the core of his JKD. Not all JKD uses a core of WingChun anymore.

(Please note that I have nothing but respect and admiration for Bruce Lee, the man was awesome. I am just stating fact that he did not finish the Wing Chun system. One could say that he did not need to, he found his own way)

My point was that the arts you listed were not shaolin. Wing Chun especially is not shaolin. There exists a shaolin wingchun, but I am not sure if it originated in shaolin or came to shaolin after the red junk boats (in many places it varies greatly from other wing chun systems that I have seen/practised). Shaolin does not use the snapping spine that hakka systems do, and wing chun does.



I am currently under instruction for Pai Lum (White Dragon) and Tai Chi. The lower forms of Tai Chi are definately soft/mental and have basis in Shaolin from what I can tell of my various education. The higher forms start using weapons and harder strikes more in line with the Wu Tang forms, so it seems it to was modified at the higher levels.

Pai Lum - I knew some people here who learned that from Christopher Casey/ Jim Cravens, are you in that same family?

Taiji (Tai Chi) was developed independantly of Shaolin. It is a mostly internal art, where Shaolin is mostly a harder art with internal aspects. I have had the opportunity to meet and discuss Taijiquan with several masters in the art and the general reply I have gotten from them is that it does not share a history with Shaolin, but was developed independantly. There are different systems of Taiji such as Sun Style, Yang, Chen, etc. and each one is a tad different than others. Sun is very . . . energetic.


My base is in Choy Li Fut, but I have taken instruction for fair periods of time in Penjak silat, Kuk Sul Won, Judo, Aikido, Kenjutsu, and that Isreali combat form that I can never remember, something like Baga Magaw. That one is brutal. Choy definately starts out very soft as expected of a Shaolin style, but it progresses into a much more harder form as you gain ranks and has many wep forms, and it is also the victim of the Wu Tang influence, due to it being a "young" long fist style.

Never knew a practitioner of Shaolin say it started out soft. I spent HOURS doing nothing but grueling stance work when I started Hung Gar (a shaolin system). During some more rigorous training I had blood pouring from the pores of my arms. Dit da jow was a constant training partner. Choi Li Fut is very much a Shaolin derived system. I believe it even shares history with Hung Gar.

Been in martial arts most of my life, have studied (and taught some of them): Plum Blossom Preying Mantis, 7 star preying mantis, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Wing Tsun (leung ting's version), Pei Mei (Bak Mei, or white eyebrow), Taiji and Escrima. I have met and studied with other masters in other arts as time and money allowed, including Southern Mantis (originally southern Dragon and a hakka system) and Kenpo, and have messed around with practitioners of other arts such as jiu jitsu, akido, Baqua and Hsing I (which has a lot in common with Wing Chun in some aspects it seems).


I guess my point is, I agree they were fighters and rogues, and I had forgotton that they specifically stated they had learned from the Wu Tang, but most of the modern Kung Fu has been so integrated now that it is difficult to tell what some of them originated from. I definately see Shaolin influences in both Chows' and Lees' forms, but that may be due to the multiple styles they have learned, and it looks good on screen. My point does stand that a fair portion of the Shaolin styles did incorporate more common weapons, usually at the later ranks. Probably due to the influence of the Wu Tang styles.

I agree that Shaolin uses common weapons. Darn Do (broadsword), monks spade, 3 section staff, 2 section staff, trident (Bak Mei teacher I trained under had one that was a MONSTER), etc. From what I have read though the last few movies to hit the US (Crouching Tiger, Hero, House of Flying Daggers) were tributes to the old Wudong (Wu Tang) movies. And thus why I was quick to reply that I do not see a fear of seeing too much of that influence in the DDO Monk, as they specifically mentioned Shaolin and not Wudong. OF course they may not know the difference either . . .

The best movies to get a feel for Shaolin are the early shaw brothers stuff such as Master Killer and the later stuff like Iron Monkey. For pure entertainment not much beats Kung Fu Hustle (not just shaolin, but wudong as well as darn funny).


That was always one of my gripes with monks in PnP. The beginning monk is very much the white belt, but I always found it difficult to incorporate the special moves like Great push, great shout, crushing claw, etc. with out giving up too much or gaining too much. At least I found it difficult to give my monks a "Style" without unbalancing them. Maybe others found a way, but my best attempt was in 2 ed when they were clerics and I created kits based on styles. It limited spell access to gain special manouvres depending on the styles. I love what they did for monks in 3/3.5, but I still feel they are very generic. Still love to play them when I get the stat rolls.


D&D makes it hard to have a true Shaolin feel for a monk, true, but it does not derive the monk from Wutang. The monk video we saw (with the execption of the bad whirlwind attack) looked pretty much like a kung fu movie adaptation of shaolin. I can be happy with that (and am actually).

My hope is that eventally we will get either enhancements or items that will allow the use of empty hands to do either elemental or have transmuting ability. Transmuting hand wraps would be sweet.

I have been playing Monks since the small paperback supplement called "Blackmoor".

[query]

Dervish, TWF weilding scimitars, especially if one is of speed, I did out DPS th monk damage. Same reason as the monk too: he had way more attacks than anybody. And whe he finally got that A Thousand Cuts with his Dervish dance the number of attacks and hits he did on the big bad that even made the expecting it GM to be amazingly shocked at his damage from the hits he did.


So yeah, dervish kicks butt with "wimpy d6" (and I got it down to a pre epic 11 crit threat x3 crit multiplier) scimitars.


I've NEVER seen any non-Monk melee character in PnP that could out DPS a Monk at higher levels, just doesn't happen. PnP works differently though, 3/4 BAB isn't the big problem in combat that it is in DDO, mobs aren't running around with 5000hp at 16th level with an AC in the 50s, so the Monk can hit them consistantly and do more damage in a round then the raging Barb or spec'd out Fighter.

We only have what we've seen in the recent interviews from Connect 08...pre-Alpha build of the Monk information, nothing else, and it's not set in stone yet, it's pre-Alpha. And even with that, we saw the Monk dealing with mobs in the desert with ease, no items to boost to hit or damage, still mowed them down quite quickly and quite easily, so the Monk would appear to be a good DPS build already.

[KristovK]

Dervish, TWF weilding scimitars, especially if one is of speed, I did out DPS th monk damage. Same reason as the monk too: he had way more attacks than anybody. And whe he finally got that A Thousand Cuts with his Dervish dance the number of attacks and hits he did on the big bad that even made the expecting it GM to be amazingly shocked at his damage from the hits he did.


So yeah, dervish kicks butt with "wimpy d6" (and I got it down to a pre epic 11 crit threat x3 crit multiplier) scimitars.

Was that with 3.0 rules or 3.5, no stacking keen/imp crit in 3.5, so those crit threats don't drop as low anymore...which I miss, Weaponmaster Half Orc duel weilding keen kukris :) Looked funny as hells, but the damage was just outrageous, especially when I hit epic levels and got Dev Crit :)

[Ricter]

First off, the unarmed damage scaling is a wash in my opinion. 1d6 1-3, 1d8 4-7, 1d10 8-11, 2d6 12-15, 2d8 16-19, 2d10 20. Base damage is not bad, although with the addition of green steel items, you can get a Greatsword for 3d6 or a Maul for 2d8.

Sure, base damage. But you can't get that up with bonus damage, and your STR is likely going to be lower as well. Not to mention you only get through a couple of DR's, and not until much later.


A monk will be immune to charm person at level 20 due to being considered an outsider. Admittedly, this wont be in the game 'til the end of the year, AND it won't effect spells like charm monster, but it should stop hold person. (Not hold monster)

That's really kind of a weak argument, but okay.


A monk should receive Improved Trip as a free feat. A Barbarian would need to spend a feat on it, as would a fighter. (Straight barbarians are already feat starved, although the fighter can take it no problem)

Okay...? Like I said, monks are good at tripping. Not sure why you mention this.


Flurry of blows works differently than you describe it. At first it's a -2 to hit for an extra attack. When you get to 5th level the penalty lessens to -1. When you get to 9th level, there is no penalty to hit for flurry of blows. When you get to 11th level, you now get another additional attack on top of the first one, making two AND there is still no penalty for flurry of blows. By the way, in PnP you CAN stack TWF and Flurry of blows for a large amount of attacks. (There is a Sage Advice article out there if you search for it)

Sorry for the confusion, I was thinking 3.0 flurry of blows. Accusing me of spreading misinformation for something that was only partially incorrect is a bit harsh, but I was still wrong. And yes, I am aware that the two stack... but for a class that already has hitting issues, it's not always the best of ideas.


BAB is 3/4 like you say. However, many classes can make due with 3/4 BAB without much difficulty.

Sure, but with the other disadvantages (likely lower attack ability score, lower damage, etc) it really starts to hurt the melee damage.


A monk's SR is nothing impressive? If correctly implemented they should have SR of 10 + their monk level starting at level 13. That would be 23 SR, up to 26 at the current level cap we have. I'm not saying it's great, since it doesnt affect damage spells, but I think it's definitely not bad.

I've never considered 23 impressive. While it looks good on paper, the quests that you care about doing well at are likely elites... at that level, you're likely to run into casters with 15+ caster level, making the SR not as important. That's also assuming they don't credit NPC's with spell penetration feats. Sure, it does help out against lower level casters, but those are ones you're going to beat anyways. The SR at this point is really of a "win more" ability.


So, why are they good versus casters? Good all around saves. Improved Evasion. 26 SR. Immunity to Poison/Disease. Fast movement. High Touch AC (Yes this is more for PnP). Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple.

Saves are good, but then likely your damage is lower. Monks are good against casters, admittedly. My point was rather that it wasn't for the reasons stated previously.


Ok, now for the alternate arguments (so I dont sound like a monk fanboy). Monk in PnP are rarely what I would consider top of the line DPS. A well designed Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger will often outdps the monk. There are situations when the monk will shine, but damage usually is not one of them. However, they will be incredibly survivable, possibly more so than just a straight Paladin. Although I am probably going to make a Paladin/Monk mix of some sort :)

The problem isn't that a well designed dps will outdamage an average monk. The problem is that a well designed dps will outdamage just about any monk. I don't really buy the "incredibly survivable" argument. Sure, you can get high AC, or high saves, or a mix of multiples. First off, you can't really squeeze saves, AC, and HP into the same monk build. If you do, it's almost always because you only take 3-4 levels of monk, and I don't really count that as a monk build anymore (neither does DDO, for that matter). And even if you do manage to get all of those high, you usually sacrifice all ability to do any real damage, and then you're not really any use to a party.


Oh and btw, I would think that Turbine is almost certainly going to add some of the items for monks into the game. I.e. Amulet of Mighty Fists, and some other items to make up for the lack of enhancement bonus to attack/damage and lack of prefix/suffix abilities that weapons can normally get. It would be sort of shortsighted not to. But, I guess we will wait and see. I am looking forward to it, just to add some more variety to the game.

Sure, but I don't like counting on items that haven't dropped for me yet. Seems like a bad way to go.


Another thought I had, is with all the immunities/abilities you will have, it may clear up some inventory slots that you would otherwise use on Poison or Disease Immunity. So hopefully that will help the M.A.D. a little bit :)

The consumables isn't the problem, it's the additional items they'd have to wear to keep up. You can replicate a poison immunity with spells, for example, but you can't get +6 CON. Also, the poison immunity is only a temporary need, while you'd always need the stat bonus. On top of all that, you'll probably have to run an amulet of mighty fists just to keep up, losing you another needed item slot.

And yes, I am ranting. I can already see the problem with how attached people are to their PnP counterparts. Sure, you can play what you want and have fun, just realize what you're getting in to.

[query]

Oriental Adventures.

Which BTW is where many of the DDO monk themes are coming from.

Heck I have all but given up on real life corrections from pronounciation changing spelling alone (Peeking to Bejing...and oops yeah it's Shaolin, not like the English spelling is as important as how it's emphasized anyway.) So I look forward to Oriental Adventures in DDO and for those who want a potential what a monk can do with elemental fists, see either the Complete Divine's Sacred Fist or the complete Arcane's Enlightened Fist (which has more pull here as they are quite prevalient in Khorvaire and even more popular in Aundair.)

Now remember, they get that while STAYING a pure monk and can choose one or MORE elemental paths being as strong, weak or as balanced as they WISH in those paths JUST from EP spending.

And with those vorp and CS and other major debuff goodness just waiting in the bank and other kamas from L 1 up, I'll have no "weapon substitution" problem indeed folks :)

So go go fantasy Shaolin balanced w D&D and DDO monk power
(and there better be a monk belt waiting for me! :) )


Was that with 3.0 rules or 3.5, no stacking keen/imp crit in 3.5, so those crit threats don't drop as low anymore...which I miss, Weaponmaster Half Orc duel weilding keen kukris :) Looked funny as hells, but the damage was just outrageous, especially when I hit epic levels and got Dev Crit :)

[KristovK]

Oriental Adventures.

Which BTW is where many of the DDO monk themes are coming from.

Heck I have all but given up on real life corrections from pronounciation changing spelling alone (Peeking to Bejing...and oops yeah it's Shaolin, not like the English spelling is as important as how it's emphasized anyway.) So I look forward to Oriental Adventures in DDO and for those who want a potential what a monk can do with elemental fists, see either the Complete Divine's Sacred Fist or the complete Arcane's Enlightened Fist (which has more pull here as they are quite prevalient in Khorvaire and even more popular in Aundair.)

Now remember, they get that while STAYING a pure monk and can choose one or MORE elemental paths being as strong, weak or as balanced as they WISH in those paths JUST from EP spending.

And with those vorp and CS and other major debuff goodness just waiting in the bank and other kamas from L 1 up, I'll have no "weapon substitution" problem indeed folks :)

So go go fantasy Shaolin balanced w D&D and DDO monk power
(and there better be a monk belt waiting for me! :) )

WM was removed from 3.5..toooooo overpowered...which is what made em so fun :) Course my DM would just toss some constructs and undead at me and watch me cringe...pretty pointless to have these dual weapons that crit on a 10 when the mobs are immune to crits..left me doing 1d4 damage plus feat/str gonuses..which was impressive, but without those crits every roll...*sigh*

We'll just have to see what they do with the Monks, should be seeing them on Risia soon I hope, so we'll have a better idea..and hopefully time to give some good feedback and get issues fixed. AND make sure we use the ingame feedback on Risia to request Monk items! Kate made mention that there were none in the works at Connect 08, we've gotta do something about that, otherwise Monks WILL be the redheaded stepchildren of DDO.

[query]

and good point! I shall be vocal for my belt and other monk-y goodness.

But if you listen, the monk is having a whole "gear set" built for them. Starts at 2:00 of the video. And in the end of the video she said (doing the South Park N Korean leader's voice) E-gul craw! WOOT!
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/29040

And going to the OA WM, it wasn't my fault the DM allowed them in PnP 3.5 and was dumb enough to have the big bad crittable :)
yeah, the word said was never, so there! :p
Seriously, that's what burst or similar damage is for, DDO included (with Gr x bane of course) for "uncrittable" baddies.
And you can guess the fun I had in PnP :D



WM was removed from 3.5..toooooo overpowered...which is what made em so fun :) Course my DM would just toss some constructs and undead at me and watch me cringe...pretty pointless to have these dual weapons that crit on a 10 when the mobs are immune to crits..left me doing 1d4 damage plus feat/str gonuses..which was impressive, but without those crits every roll...*sigh*

We'll just have to see what they do with the Monks, should be seeing them on Risia soon I hope, so we'll have a better idea..and hopefully time to give some good feedback and get issues fixed. AND make sure we use the ingame feedback on Risia to request Monk items! Kate made mention that there were none in the works at Connect 08, we've gotta do something about that, otherwise Monks WILL be the redheaded stepchildren of DDO.

[Tallyn]

And yes, I am ranting. I can already see the problem with how attached people are to their PnP counterparts. Sure, you can play what you want and have fun, just realize what you're getting in to.

I don't disagree with all your points.. I did want to point out a few of the strengths, and you'll notice in my last paragraph that I say they probably wont be great dpsers.

For survivability I dont think you can beat them. 16 Monk will have 26 SR, even on elite, while maybe not 50%, you'll still probaly see enemy casters fail a decent portion of the time. Add that in with really good saves, evasion, potentially great AC and what not, and I think they could be a solid class.

But you are right, the builds I have in mind utilizing monk, are only taking a level or two in both cases, hehe.

Anyways, we'll have to wait to see how turbine actually implements them. We may not be able to do what we want with the monk, if they deviate from pnp too much.

[Roxie]

one ac really does not mader at high lvls my barb has a 24 ac but 610 hit points if monks want to be good they should not focus on as but hit points. But monks also get a spell that doubles there hit points in P&P so the monk will do just fine they can also use kamas and attack faster then any other class.


I don't disagree with all your points.. I did want to point out a few of the strengths, and you'll notice in my last paragraph that I say they probably wont be great dpsers.

For survivability I dont think you can beat them. 16 Monk will have 26 SR, even on elite, while maybe not 50%, you'll still probaly see enemy casters fail a decent portion of the time. Add that in with really good saves, evasion, potentially great AC and what not, and I think they could be a solid class.

But you are right, the builds I have in mind utilizing monk, are only taking a level or two in both cases, hehe.

Anyways, we'll have to wait to see how turbine actually implements them. We may not be able to do what we want with the monk, if they deviate from pnp too much.

[Tallyn]

one ac really does not mader at high lvls my barb has a 24 ac but 610 hit points if monks want to be good they should not focus on as but hit points. But monks also get a spell that doubles there hit points in P&P so the monk will do just fine they can also use kamas and attack faster then any other class.

AC does matter at higher levels, it's just that high HP are usually better. My Rogue has hit 76 AC before, and stood there toe to toe with the pit fiend, while watching Barbarians die.

And monks don't get spells in 3.5 P&P. Unless you are talking about some kind of variant class or prestige class monk.

[Angelus_dead]

For survivability I dont think you can beat them. 16 Monk will have 26 SR, even on elite, while maybe not 50%, you'll still probaly see enemy casters fail a decent portion of the time. Add that in with really good saves, evasion, potentially great AC and what not, and I think they could be a solid class.
Apparently you missed that DDO monks don't get SR, for some strange reason.

I don't understand it... the class feature isn't really better than a cleric casting it on you.

[Eladrin]

Apparently you missed that DDO monks don't get SR, for some strange reason.
They don't? I missed that too. Mine's got Diamond Soul.

The WDA's aren't completely all-inclusive, especially when it comes to the Monk.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

They don't? I missed that too. Mine's got Diamond Soul.

The WDA's aren't completely all-inclusive, especially when it comes to the Monk.

Eladrin,

Yer a smart arse,

You'd fit well with our guild...

[Angelus_dead]

They don't? I missed that too. Mine's got Diamond Soul.

The WDA's aren't completely all-inclusive, especially when it comes to the Monk.
+Coal, the Ranger1/Monk15 demonstrated by Kate Paiz, has both Diamond Soul and Spell Resistance 0. Maybe something has changed since then.

PS. The text from that monk's character sheet was posted in this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=140895).

[EspyLacopa]

They don't? I missed that too. Mine's got Diamond Soul.

The WDA's aren't completely all-inclusive, especially when it comes to the Monk.
I even noticed that feat in the video that was posted somewheres on these forums. Right next to Diamond Body on the feat list.

[KristovK]

I was going to say, the feat is shown in the video, so it's obviously there. Can't comment on the SR not showing on the character sheet, but I've noticed that sometimes that happens with feat/enhancement, you HAVE them but they don't show on the sheet.

And..sorry, but an innate ability is always better then one cast on you, it can't be dispelled, and yes SR from the spell can be dispelled. It's one of those little things that make the Monk such a caster destroyer, evasion and imp evasion to avoid the damage spells and SR to avoid the mind control and insta-death spells...the little things.

[EspyLacopa]

I was going to say, the feat is shown in the video, so it's obviously there. Can't comment on the SR not showing on the character sheet, but I've noticed that sometimes that happens with feat/enhancement, you HAVE them but they don't show on the sheet.

And..sorry, but an innate ability is always better then one cast on you, it can't be dispelled, and yes SR from the spell can be dispelled. It's one of those little things that make the Monk such a caster destroyer, evasion and imp evasion to avoid the damage spells and SR to avoid the mind control and insta-death spells...the little things.
And high base saves for everything else.

[lolwagon]

Monks get the highest AC. Period. You add your wisdom mod to your dex and other ac.
Monks also get the most damage through the most attacks per round.
If you build a monk right, he is kind of like a slightly more fighterish ranger with more saves but no spell casting presence.
He makes up for this with spell resistance based on level, immunity to almost everything that can adversely effect a toon, and an extra attack per round. In pnp they also gain movement speed based on level.







usually this is the post about paladins:
as a pen and paper player with a buddy who is monk obsessed, i still don't see where they will fit in a standard ddo party. usually a six man party is:
cleric - healer
wiz/sorc - sizzle and cc, warforged healing
rogue - pesky traps and locks, caster control
2-3 tanks - dps and walls, agro management, intimidate

i'd take 3 fighter, 3 paladins, 3 rangers etc in most quests.....but 3 monks? um....
i sub some out depending on the quest (i.e. bard if there will be beholders) but who do you lose to make room for a monk. i know a lot of it depends on the secondary characteristics (rogues still fight, rangers and bards help heal etc), but in high level content its usually all about the vorpals, paralyzers, banishers, disruptors, etc.

a monk getting elemental damage doesn't seem the same. (no, you don't all have vorpal monk weapons waiting in the bank, they don't work on the boss anyway)

i dont know how the secondary characteristics in ddo will stack up but are the just gonna rock for solo play? or with their dex are they all gonna end up with a rogue splash?

would i take a monk to madstone? doubt it. the pit? sure. stk? yup. running with the devils? not so much.
so im looking for your opinions about where as a monk you think people will grab you up.

in what quests do you guys think a monk would be a first choice asset (and who would they replace) and what quest do the just not have a place or are b-string at best?

[Angelus_dead]

And..sorry, but an innate ability is always better then one cast on you
Innate SR 26 is only very rarely superior to cast SR 28. Bigger numbers are better numbers.

[EspyLacopa]

Innate SR 26 is only very rarely superior to cast SR 28. Bigger numbers are better numbers.
Until the 28 SR gets dispelled while the 26 SR doesn't. . .

[Naso24]

I don't understand why wearing 4 stat items would be an issue. My ranger wears +6 STR, +6 DEX, +6 CON, and +5 WIS items. I also manage to squeeze in a minos helm, +5 protection, a robe, GFL, +4 resistance, and AC bracers. You can cover all the necessary bases with some thought.

While monks may not benefit from greensteel weapons (other than kama), they can really take advantage of greensteel items (existential stalemate, Bolas + tempered, etc.)

AC wise, I expect monks will have AC like rangers, with the added benefit of getting a wisdom AC bonus and able to add barkskin from potions or items or from a ranger spell.

While a monk at level 16 has 5 (vs 4) attacks with 12 BAB, what about a monk at level 16 with a divine power clicky? And flurry of blows? And TWF, ITWF, GTWF while wielding kamas and a DP clickie? It would be even sicker if they get attack speed enhancement as a boost. My fighter with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, a haste, and 30% enhancement boost lays down a ton of damage 20 seconds at a time. Monks, if they have as many attacks as we are expecting, and add 25% haste +30% more will get a ton of swings.

The only limiting factor I see is for on crit effect (banish, smite). But they will be unbeatable for vorpals and disruptors (kamas).

[Hvymetal]

I don't understand why wearing 4 stat items would be an issue. My ranger wears +6 STR, +6 DEX, +6 CON, and +5 WIS items. I also manage to squeeze in a minos helm, +5 protection, a robe, GFL, +4 resistance, and AC bracers. You can cover all the necessary bases with some thought.+ some luck or enough cash to get just all the right items for all the right slots ;)

[amysrevenge]

I used to be proud of my paladin's "survivability".

Then I realized that the main reason for it was that I did so little damage that I usually didn't get aggro until everyone else was dead. :P Made me look at survivability differently (and totally respec/reprioritize my pally).

I'm concerned that the monk's survivability will be of a similar sort. Unless it departs pretty radically from the PnP Monk, there will be problems - the PnP monk (in my experience) is balanced as a magic-item-lite counterpart to non-Monty Haul fighters. Since we are most definitely playing a Monty Haul game here, the straight-up Monk will not be properly balanced.

However, this will have been immediately clear to the developers, and thus I am sure that the Monk, perhaps more than any other class, will be very far removed from its PnP counterpart.

Big Mike

[Hvymetal]

I used to be proud of my paladin's "survivability".

Then I realized that the main reason for it was that I did so little damage that I usually didn't get aggro until everyone else was dead. :P Made me look at survivability differently (and totally respec/reprioritize my pally).

I'm concerned that the monk's survivability will be of a similar sort. Unless it departs pretty radically from the PnP Monk, there will be problems - the PnP monk (in my experience) is balanced as a magic-item-lite counterpart to non-Monty Haul fighters. Since we are most definitely playing a Monty Haul game here, the straight-up Monk will not be properly balanced.

However, this will have been immediately clear to the developers, and thus I am sure that the Monk, perhaps more than any other class, will be very far removed from its PnP counterpart.

Big MikeKinda what I am hoping is they will add gloves with effects similar to what they had in NWN.

[MysticTheurge]

Innate SR 26 is only very rarely superior to cast SR 28. Bigger numbers are better numbers.

In DDO, at the very least, it'll be helpful against beholder's enervation. (And other eye beams, but at least they have saves.)

It shouldn't be the case, but it probably will be.

[Mercules]

Solution:

Throw out the mindset you need certain classes to do X and suddenly it doesn't matter what you take into the quest.

Point in fact.

Rogue 6 - Halfling with Dragon marks for Healing and WotMechanic made for traps and carrying a Light Repeater
Wizard 6 - WF
We Duo'd a bunch of level 6 quest. No Cleric & no "tanks". We both could self-heal. We could trade around agro and shed it if needed. So if we decided to do a level 7-9 quest what would we take? Whatever we wanted because you don't need a particular party build for the majority of the content in the game.:p