Scimitar and Khopesh Finesse?

[orcbanian]

Just wondering what the possibilities of having the Scimitar and Khopesh stack with the Weapon Finesse feat?

[Aspenor]

Just wondering what the possibilities of having the Scimitar and Khopesh stack with the Weapon Finesse feat?

Never gonna happen.

Although I heard there was an elf ability that allowed longswords to be finesseable, not sure if it applies in Eberron, or even if maybe somebody made it up.

[Illuminati]

Wep Finesse only applies to 'light' weapons.

Light Hammer, Rapier (lucky you get this one), short sword, light mace, sickle, kukri

[dameron]

Wep Finesse only applies to 'light' weapons.

Light Hammer, Rapier (lucky you get this one), short sword, light mace, sickle, kukri

+Dagger & light pick.

[Razvan]

Maybe if those weapons were mithral...that would make them light, right?

[Aodh]

Maybe if those weapons were mithral...that would make them light, right?

Hmmmmm... interesting!

[Albel]

Maybe if those weapons were mithral...that would make them light, right?

No, the categories are light, 1 handed and 2 handed, it has nothing to do with the weight of the weapon but rather the physical size and way the weapon is used. Mithral will change a weapons weight, but not it's size.

[Zuldar]

I believe it's the complete warrior that has some special elven made type longswords that can be finessed.

[Zaodon]

Don't forget the Drow Longknife!

Too bad that's not in DDO, that would rock. :)

[Rickpa]

There is a precedent of sorts. A finesse bastard sword called "Sun Blade."

I think there is a greater possibility of there being finesse khopeshes than all khopeshes being finessable

[Cinwulf]

Like the two handed sickle weapon from the titan: Shining Crescents. Classified as light weapon, 2 handed and finessable iirc.

[QuantumFX]

Never gonna happen.

Although I heard there was an elf ability that allowed longswords to be finesseable, not sure if it applies in Eberron, or even if maybe somebody made it up.

You might be thinking of the Champion of Corellion PrC from Races of the Wild. An Elf with 2 levels (I think) of this PrC can apply his STR and DEX modifiers to damage with Longswords/Rapiers/Scimitars. The bonus damage is limited to foes that can be sneak attacked.

[orcbanian]

Sorry, the reason I think this should work is BECAUSE they include rapier in the list. I understand the statistical advantage of Slashing over Piercing, but the difference doesn't seem enough to justify the lack of stacking. It'd be like a feat that applies to the dagger and kukri, but not the sickle.

Its basically just an annoyance for me. My favorite PnP character was a TWF Dex-based Ranger that used Scimitar and Kukri with Weapon Finesse. I wanted to recreate this character on DDO, but I have to either switch weapons or go Str-based. Not a big deal, but it would be truly awesome if they changed this feat to include Scimitar and Khopesh (Or even Falchion, thus making a 2-hander for dex-based toons! Hehehehe...)

[Vormaerin]

There's also a bunch of half baked elf only weapons in the Complete Fairy Wish List or whatever the book is called. There's a finesse able long sword, a sword that can be used with either long sword or short sword proficiency, and some kind of funky two handed sword. All based on the idea that elves are wusses who can't handle real weapons and need special assistance.

This despite the fact that 3.5e wood elves are as strong as half orcs... *rolls eyes*

[MysticTheurge]

My favorite PnP character was a TWF Dex-based Ranger that used Scimitar and Kukri with Weapon Finesse. I wanted to recreate this character on DDO, but I have to either switch weapons or go Str-based.

So, since you house ruled something, you want DDO to change the rules of the game?

[roadkill525]

So, since you house ruled something, you want DDO to change the rules of the game?

aye scimatar was never finessable in any of the PnP things I played.
there was a slightly larger list though, whips and spiked chains were finessable. and while rapier is a 1 hand weapons its made to be a light quick blade thats why its finessable, and why you take a negative for useing it in yer offhand(or should atleast) with out the oversized two weapon fighting.

one thing I did in PnP that I would like to recreate here was a rogue/bard halfling that would fight by juggleing(dual weilding) 5-6 returning throwing daggers. DM made me do a perform chjeck every round to see if I could keep juggleing instead of the daggers dropign to the ground like they was saposta.

[orcbanian]

So, since you house ruled something, you want DDO to change the rules of the game?
I'm not demanding that they do it, I am simply asking if it is something they're already considering. I have no illusions that my monthly payment is enough to make them change game structure. :)

[DSL]

I'm not demanding that they do it, I am simply asking if it is something they're already considering. I have no illusions that my monthly payment is enough to make them change game structure. :)


The thing is, limiting which weapons this feat applies to is an important balancing factor. If it applied to all weapons, this would allow a single feat to grant far too great an advantage. They have put limits on the weapons allowed which are not simply arbitrary - there is a clear logic involved as to why nearly all non-light weapons are excluded, namely the quickness with which they can be wielded. Admittedly, one might consider a scimitar to be borderline, but the PnP rules have made it clear which side of the border the weapon falls on. A khopesh is another matter though, as this is an extremely unwieldy weapon (it's very "front-heavy" and much more limited in the ways it can effectively inflict damage).

I would not expect these limits to change anytime soon, so you might just be better sevred sticking to kukris if you want an 18-20/x2 crit slashing finesse weapon, and not worry about the average 1 point difference in dice damage.

[Tanka]

The Elven longsword everyone refers to is called the Thinblade.

Basically, it's a rapier with an edge instead of a point. It's about as silly as letting a morningstar do slashing damage.

Mithral materials only change the classification of armor, not of weapons, so making a mithral longsword will not suddenly make it a light weapon.

A more proper use of the terminology would be "small" weapons (plus rapier) as the finessable ones. Longsword et al fall under "medium" weapons. Unfortunately, WotC decided to use small/medium descriptors for race sizes rather than allowing them to apply to many things.

[MysticTheurge]

A more proper use of the terminology would be "small" weapons (plus rapier) as the finessable ones. Longsword et al fall under "medium" weapons. Unfortunately, WotC decided to use small/medium descriptors for race sizes rather than allowing them to apply to many things.

That's because D&D weapons also have sizes. There is such a thing as a Small Greatsword and a Large Dagger.

The small greatsword is still a Two-Handed weapon and the large dagger is still a Light weapon.

[Tanka]

That's because D&D weapons also have sizes. There is such a thing as a Small Greatsword and a Large Dagger.

The small greatsword is still a Two-Handed weapon and the large dagger is still a Light weapon.
True, but the categorization is still rather pathetic when it comes down to it.

Light weapons are not considered light because of their size -- they're light because of their finessability and their lack of offhand penalty.

(Which, yes, means they get the "light" category, but the current form of categorization is long due for a complete overhaul anyway.)

[bandyman1]

The Elven longsword everyone refers to is called the Thinblade.

Basically, it's a rapier with an edge instead of a point. It's about as silly as letting a morningstar do slashing damage.

Mithral materials only change the classification of armor, not of weapons, so making a mithral longsword will not suddenly make it a light weapon.

A more proper use of the terminology would be "small" weapons (plus rapier) as the finessable ones. Longsword et al fall under "medium" weapons. Unfortunately, WotC decided to use small/medium descriptors for race sizes rather than allowing them to apply to many things.

??? :confused: Umm....have you ever SEEN a rapier? IRL?

ALL rapiers have an edged blade. Although the blade is thin, and was clearly designed for a period when swordmanship favored thrusting attacks, you've got another thing coming if you think they wouldn't lay someone open from collerbone to hip with a slashing attack.

Foils are used in fencing matches, and are non-edged weapons with a point.

[Auran82]

Last I checked, don't Morningstars actually do Blunt and Pierce damage in PnP?

[honkuimushi]

The Dervish PrC allows you to finesse Scimitars.

[Griphon]

Yes it is possible to have a Finesse Kopesh or Finesse Scimitar.

Here's why.. listen up..

There is a magic ability add on that is already in DDO to allow for such a thing.. The name is Finesse? Or something. You'll have to excuse that part of it as I can't remember. It has some nice flavor text about an air elemental being bound inside...

Game effect is that it allows the weapon to be used as a Finesse weapon and grants a +2 dex bonus.

I've had a few of the items drop with this enhancement.. And it's SO MUCH better than Deception, huh? Anyway. I've never seen a Finesse Kopesh or Scimitar, but it is in theory possible.

[Hvymetal]

??? :confused: Umm....have you ever SEEN a rapier? IRL?

ALL rapiers have an edged blade. Although the blade is thin, and was clearly designed for a period when swordmanship favored thrusting attacks, you've got another thing coming if you think they wouldn't lay someone open from collerbone to hip with a slashing attack.

Foils are used in fencing matches, and are non-edged weapons with a point.Exactly, I always crack up when people assume a Rapier can only be used for thrusting, now granted it doesn't have a lot of weight behind it for slicing but it still can.

(Warning off-topic) and in reality thrusting is a lot more effective, it is more economical in movement and generally takes less exertion, while if placed well is more devestating to internal organs and more likely to cripple or kill in 1 hit.

[MysticTheurge]

There is a magic ability add on that is already in DDO to allow for such a thing.. The name is Finesse? Or something. You'll have to excuse that part of it as I can't remember. It has some nice flavor text about an air elemental being bound inside...

Game effect is that it allows the weapon to be used as a Finesse weapon and grants a +2 dex bonus.

It can also only be applied to light weapons and rapiers.

[Griphon]

Okay, MT.

I remember this one being in the Ebberon books themselves. Part of that whole Gnomish inquisition on Elementals... (Nobody expects the Gnomish Inquisition!)

Is that a DDO only thing? Or is from the PnP games?
Uh.. Because...that'd really restrict the usefulness of the enchantment.

[Glenalth]

Yes it is possible to have a Finesse Kopesh or Finesse Scimitar.

Here's why.. listen up..

There is a magic ability add on that is already in DDO to allow for such a thing.. The name is Finesse? Or something. You'll have to excuse that part of it as I can't remember. It has some nice flavor text about an air elemental being bound inside...

Game effect is that it allows the weapon to be used as a Finesse weapon and grants a +2 dex bonus.

I've had a few of the items drop with this enhancement.. And it's SO MUCH better than Deception, huh? Anyway. I've never seen a Finesse Kopesh or Scimitar, but it is in theory possible.

Almost. It doesn't make the weapon a finessable weapon, it grants the weapon finesse feat. Even if it were on a scimitar or khopesh it would do no good besides granting a +2 dex bonus.

[MysticTheurge]

Is that a DDO only thing? Or is from the PnP games?
Uh.. Because...that'd really restrict the usefulness of the enchantment.

It's right out of the ECS. It's a result of binding a small air elemental into the weapon.

But it's only effective on weapons that could otherwise be finessed. The benefit comes from not having to have the feat. (Which is more of a benefit in D&D than it is in min/max-y DDO.)

[Kraegor]

Rapier = Long thin straight blade that does have an edge and a point, but is balanced and structured for piercing and light slashing.

Fencing Foil = Long thin blade that doesn't have an edge, and is balanced and structured for piercing.

Sabre = Long, slightly curved blade that has an edge and a point, but is balanced and structured for slashing and light piercing.

The Foil is also called an Épée (although a true Épée is longer and heavier).

The 2 blades that are elven and finessable are:

Elven Thinblade (A longsword, made a little tougher than rapier for slashing mainly) -- d8 18-20(x2)
Elven Courtblade (A 2handed greatsword that is thinner slashing weapon) -- d10 18-20(x2)

Both are finessable, both need exotic weapon proficiencies.

[Deaths_ward]

Rapier = Long thin straight blade that does have an edge and a point, but is balanced and structured for piercing and light slashing.

Fencing Foil = Long thin blade that doesn't have an edge, and is balanced and structured for piercing.

Sabre = Long, slightly curved blade that has an edge and a point, but is balanced and structured for slashing and light piercing.

The Foil is also called an Épée (although a true Épée is longer and heavier).

The 2 blades that are elven and finessable are:

Elven Thinblade (A longsword, made a little tougher than rapier for slashing mainly) -- d8 18-20(x2)
Elven Courtblade (A 2handed greatsword that is thinner slashing weapon) -- d10 18-20(x2)

Both are finessable, both need exotic weapon proficiencies.
**Warning /sarcasm on**
It's so fair that elves can't get those weapons as free proficiencies if they have martial weapon proficiency.
**/sarcasm off**
I mean it's not like any other race gets special racial weapon....oh wait dwarves get the Dw.axe, and from what I know. I think there's another race or 2 around that get free exotic proficiencies if they are granted martial weapon proficiencies as a class benefit.

We need more exotic racial weapons like the Dwarven War Axe, that come as freebies so that we can see more that 4 or 5 builds dominating melee character slots.

[TreknaQudane]

**Warning /sarcasm on**
It's so fair that elves can't get those weapons as free proficiencies if they have martial weapon proficiency.
**/sarcasm off**
I mean it's not like any other race gets special racial weapon....oh wait dwarves get the Dw.axe, and from what I know. I think there's another race or 2 around that get free exotic proficiencies if they are granted martial weapon proficiencies as a class benefit.

We need more exotic racial weapons like the Dwarven War Axe, that come as freebies so that we can see more that 4 or 5 builds dominating melee character slots.

Only Dwarf Rangers, Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins gain Dwarven War Axe for free. For any other to get it they need spend the feat or multiclass.

Elf Clerics, Wizards, Rogues, Bards, Sorcerers, Paladins, Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers get Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow and Longbow for free. Some classes have it already, but you will never meet an Elf that could not use one if they had the strength or dex for one of those four weapons.

[Deaths_ward]

Only Dwarf Rangers, Fighters, Barbarians, and Paladins gain Dwarven War Axe for free. For any other to get it they need spend the feat or multiclass.

Elf Clerics, Wizards, Rogues, Bards, Sorcerers, Paladins, Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers get Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow and Longbow for free. Some classes have it already, but you will never meet an Elf that could not use one if they had the strength or dex for one of those four weapons.

That's kind of what I was getting at.

Make it so it works like the Dwarven War Axe, and only classed that receive Martial Weapon proficiency get it as a bonus, and I'm not just after those weapons. I'd like to see Drow Long Knives, and halfling 'skipping' stones (can't remember where it comes from but is a sharpened throwing stone). There are others I've read about, but I don't have the books handy. Yes elves get a bunch of freebies, but to at least 2 of those classes don't actually make much use of those free proficiencies.

[Emili]

In DDO the idea of Scimitars and/or Khopesh would seem a tad overpowering on finesse dex based fighter... 2 feats IC pierce and IC slash and the character in a min/max environment would own all but red/purple nameds in a heartbeat as you just opened two more very powerful weapons... w/p, banishers, smiter, disruptors piercing weapons + two more vorpal slashing weapon choice options - high crit based weapons which provide high crit based damages... everyone would be a bloodly high dex'd elf/drow/halfling... as it stands my elven ranger can top at a 38 dex and a 24str (28 with rams + rage)... her standing to-hit with a rapier is 2 points higher than any other race can get for a standing to-hit... buffed up and she'd maintian the barbs raged to-hits for a longer period... only the double raged + barbs will equal it. Human melee will fall down the scale as they must make up for the differences via feats... I think this idea would spawn a lot of min/max'd dex melee elfs/drow and haflings running around stormreach.

[Angelus_dead]

In DDO the idea of Scimitars and/or Khopesh would seem a tad overpowering on finesse dex based fighter... 2 feats IC pierce and IC slash and the character in a min/max environment would own all but red/purple nameds in a heartbeat as you just opened two more very powerful weapons...
It would be attractive, and it would be silly, but it would not be overpowered. In D&D there is no weapon with better criticals than the finessable rapier. Scimitars are identical to the rapier, and khopeshes are inferior. When DDO's devs decided to boost the khopesh to a 3x crit mult, they gave a large damage boost to strength-based fighters, but without allowing dex-fighters anything similar.

So making khopesh finesse would be goofy looking, but not unfair.


w/p, banishers, smiter, disruptors piercing weapons + two more vorpal slashing weapon choice options - high crit based weapons which provide high crit based damages... everyone would be a bloodly high dex'd elf/drow/halfling...
No they wouldn't be... not if they actually wanted to kill monsters, because you need a strength bonus to do that well.

A part of the reason high dex finesse fighters are weak in DDO is because hitting a monster's AC is rarely a problem, but beating down it's mega hitpoints is a problem.

[Emili]

It would be attractive, and it would be silly, but it would not be overpowered. In D&D there is no weapon with better criticals than the finessable rapier. Scimitars are identical to the rapier, and khopeshes are inferior. When DDO's devs decided to boost the khopesh to a 3x crit mult, they gave a large damage boost to strength-based fighters, but without allowing dex-fighters anything similar.

So making khopesh finesse would be goofy looking, but not unfair.


No they wouldn't be... not if they actually wanted to kill monsters, because you need a strength bonus to do that well.

A part of the reason high dex finesse fighters are weak in DDO is because hitting a monster's AC is rarely a problem, but beating down it's mega hitpoints is a problem.



The scimitar is the same crit and damage as the rapier... that would place both in finesseable hands. Also I might add the elven/drow enhancement lines balance out the Rapier to the Khopesh via AP's now look +1 mod of dex over str is the average then add in +2/+2 to-hit/damage. There are many threads covering this and the rapier wins as the mob AC increases even though the Khopesh is x3. To-Hit comes into play in elite settings go try beating on some cr29 orthans and you'll note the differences... the high dex build keeps the to-hit at 95% far longer then the str built as the mob ac increases. ie.) Elite fire giant champ = AC46 - dex 36 based Elf with +5 rapier and full elven melee enhancements = +37 to-hit unbuffed - buffed +41 yields swings 1 and 2 hit on roll of 5+. Thus the 1st two swings of any dex based finesse character always lands 5-10% more then the current strength builds whenever mob ac counts.

Shear damage output in hp is a strength thing as it's always been even in PnP... the differences in finesse however come from the stat-draining side ie.) W/P ... you put a W/P in a finesse build hands and the strength built character no longer keeps up... mind you reds and purples are immune but every trash mob will be won by the finesse build over the comparable str built on average.

[honkuimushi]

**Warning /sarcasm on**
It's so fair that elves can't get those weapons as free proficiencies if they have martial weapon proficiency.
**/sarcasm off**
I mean it's not like any other race gets special racial weapon....oh wait dwarves get the Dw.axe, and from what I know. I think there's another race or 2 around that get free exotic proficiencies if they are granted martial weapon proficiencies as a class benefit.

We need more exotic racial weapons like the Dwarven War Axe, that come as freebies so that we can see more that 4 or 5 builds dominating melee character slots.

There is a feat called Improved Weapon Familiarity that will make all racial exotic weapons martial weapons. For elves, that would make all Elven exotic weapons, including the thinblade, the courtblade and the lightblade, a shortsword with the crit range of a rapier, martial.

Now right now there may not be enough resources to add these, but I think they would be worthwile additions. The courtblade in particular would require some new art, but the lightblade and thinblade could probably use the short sword and rapier models respectively. This would also give high elves a boost since these weapons do not really fit in with Eberron drow.

If they were added to the elven weapon enhancements it would eliminate any claim that the dwarves enhancement is better. Yes, the dwarves get one exotic for free and a throwing weapon, but the elves would get both piercing and slashing, better crit ranges, light, it adds a two handed weapon and most of the weapons are finessable, which goes nicely with the elven bonus to dex.

[MysticTheurge]

Elf Clerics, Wizards, Rogues, Bards, Sorcerers, Paladins, Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers get Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow and Longbow for free. Some classes have it already...

And there's the main difference.

That racial ability is of absolutely no use to Paladins, Fighters, Barbarians and Rangers. And only of limited use to Rogues and Bards.

The racial enhancements make a difference, sure. But the racial proficiency, not so much.

[Alavatar]

That's kind of what I was getting at.

Make it so it works like the Dwarven War Axe, and only classed that receive Martial Weapon proficiency get it as a bonus, and I'm not just after those weapons. I'd like to see Drow Long Knives, and halfling 'skipping' stones (can't remember where it comes from but is a sharpened throwing stone). There are others I've read about, but I don't have the books handy. Yes elves get a bunch of freebies, but to at least 2 of those classes don't actually make much use of those free proficiencies.

So, should all bastard children get the bastard sword as a martial weapon proficiency instead of an exotic weapon proficiency?