monks - am i seeing this correctly?

[galoor]

ok hi everyone, you may call me an old phart but i love monk, lol, i have always played on in PnP, so when i see MoD 7 its actually arriving i am extremely pleased :)

So i think to myself, i will start planning it with the information i have available (lets face it who hasnt, lol)
I start planning the distribution of stats and think 'hmm thats about right', happy with my points i start calculating all the crud that goes with it, you know AC/HP/BAB etc.....
Now thats where i see a problem, a big problem.......with my distribution of stats this guy aint going to hit/survive top end content as it is now. So i start min maxxing the stats, and now i see that things are not good........

All calculations are based on level 16 with +1 tomes in every stat
Start with AC.
If i max wisdom and dex (providing turbine allows dex for AC, pnp didnt), also note i have based on dwarf because of toughness enhancement which a monk should not have available as its not a martial class.

So base is 10
max dex and wis gives + 14 (assuming +6 items)
monk level bonus 3
dodge 1
AC bracers 7
Protection item 5
barkskin (pot) 3
Chattering ring 3
total 46

Not too bad i suppose, low but turbine wants this class to be hit or to hit to build Qi. (forget CE, look at the to hit calculation for why)

But then i look at BAB and HP's for this build, because of the need for max dex and wis there are only enough points to put con and str at 12.
Max HP's using GFL/dwarven toughness/draconic Vit/starting bonus/+6 con item/toughness feat
328

not great especially since you need to be hit to build Qi

To hit using BAB/STR/+5 weapon (unless +5 unarmed weapons appear you will need this)
21

hmm you aint going to hit much with that, and flurry isnt going to connect much either.

Ok i think, so iam never going to be a tank, how about doing the barbarian approach, max con/str and let AC slip.

AC is now 41 with only 12 dex/wis, so iam going to be hit quite alot

HP's with 20 base con 384 not very good really, you are going to need constant attention with heals because of AC

To hit 24 ok you are not going to be very useful in the shroud, lol, but you will hit trash mobs ok


I have played around with all the different variations of race/weapon finesse and just about every combo i can think of, and nothing shouts out 'ok this will work in the shroud' which i am using as a baseline, every combo is gimped in at least 2 of the 3 main areas AC/HP/To hit.

So my question is "have i missed something so obvious that i deserve the title 'numpty of the week', or is this going to be a painfull class to get groups with?"

[Impaqt]

your Calculations are Way off... i cant point out which ones because you didnt post any of your To hit Calculations.....

monk I sa 3/4 BAB Class.

Assuming 30 Str/Dex your at +25 First attack Before anyone throws a Single buff on ya....

[galoor]

To hit calculations are all based on level 16 monk, 12 base + str +weapon

[Zenako]

Well also keep in mind that Monk's many of us remember were back when you had to be rather lucky and roll a very above average set of stats to even qualify for the class. A lot monks that people played back then would have been something like a 38 or 40 point matrix in a buy system.

Monks can still work, but they will not be instantly uber like they used to be in early D&D campaigns, albeit with weak HP usually.

[Impaqt]

To hit calculations are all based on level 16 monk, 12 base + str +weapon

Yeah, but What STR Score? 12? 14? That woudl Gimp ANY melee character.....

12 BAB
3 Average Weapon
10 30 STR/Dex
---
+25 First Swing.

thats +22 Unarmed..... Unbuffed... I dont understand where your making these numebrs up from.

[galoor]

Impaqt, i read alot of your replies on the forums, and most are well thought out and informative, this isnt one of them......
If you read the thread you will see that all the information is in there.

[galoor]

oh btw, i know i missed off the 4 ability points you get, but quite frankly +2 AC or +32HP's or +2 to hit aint going to alter things much.

[Rameses]

Not entirely sure why your coming up so short on your AC with all that fancy (un-obtained yet) raid loot. But I figured my Halfling Pure Monk to have the following AC.

Guess-timated AC @ 16
10 Base
+1 Halfling Size Bonus
+10 Dex Stat
+6 Wis Stat
+3 Monk AC Bonus
+7 Armor Bracers
+5 Combat Expertise
+1 Dodge Feat
+3 Natural (barkskin pots)
+5 Deflection
+1 Haste Potion
52 Self-Buffed AC

Of course I add in all that Fancy-sch-mancy raid loot... and my monk would have.... and since I am stretching I am going to add a 16 Ranger and a Paladin just for kicks. Because every party has these included, right?

+3 adding levels of Ranger to my Barkskin
+3 Paladin Aura. (I think this is accurate.)
+3 Chattering Ring
+3 Seal of the Earth
64 Buffed AC with some rare raid loot and a ranger and paladin in my bum... (I am teasing of course, please take no offense.)

I am, Rameses!

*edit* I'd also like to know how you plan on wearing both the AC bracers and the Chaos Guards. Please enlighten.

[galoor]

lol ok, you got me, drop AC by 2 on my calculations :(

you obviously are going weapon finesse with all that dex.......so my question Rameses is with you AC calculations, what is your HP and to hit going to be?

[Rameses]

lol ok, you got me, drop AC by 2 on my calculations :(

you obviously are going weapon finesse with all that dex.......so my question Rameses is with you AC calculations, what is your HP and to hit going to be?

Please read Halfling Monk Potential ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=139131)

[Aspenor]

+3 Paladin Aura. (I think this is accurate.)


In mod 7 a fully aura specced pure pally will give +4 AC, and the reduced AP cost will make this a common choice among paladins.

And I'm not even sure you have to be pure.

Additionally the Seal of Earth will not stack with the ranger barkskin, unless I'm mistaken of course....

[SneakThief]

+3 adding levels of Ranger to my Barkskin
+3 Paladin Aura. (I think this is accurate.)
+3 Chattering Ring
+3 Seal of the Earth
64 Buffed AC with some rare raid loot and a ranger and paladin in my bum... (I am teasing of course, please take no offense.)

I am, Rameses!


Doesnt ranger bark max out at 5? And Pally Aura can go to 4. So that evens out. But seal of earth is natural AC so wouldnt stack with your barkskin... ;)

Just sayin :D :D :D :D

edit: Bah ... I dont type faster than Asp ...

[Illuminati]

Unless they do something spectacular for gear/enhancements, monks will only be really viable as a splash class. The best right now is Ranger/Monk/Pally for huge saves, mid 60's AC and great DPS.

I hope we see handwraps, etc. but as it stands with no touch AC in game, etc. monks look to be a lesser support melee.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Monks are going to have a similar problem to pallies....not enough ability points to build them the way we all want.

I know my first one will be dex/finesse build....I'm thinking halfling.
But I may also build a drow and a WF.

I'd like to do a Str based one, but it seems his AC will lack severely.

I think weapons will be a must at high lvls.....

And since I almost never build a toon with less than a 10 in a stat, it will be especially hard for me to build a monk I like. :(

[Rameses]

Unless they do something spectacular for gear/enhancements, monks will only be really viable as a splash class. The best right now is Ranger/Monk/Pally for huge saves, mid 60's AC and great DPS.

I hope we see handwraps, etc. but as it stands with no touch AC in game, etc. monks look to be a lesser support melee.

Doubtful. But I agree, some nice gear like hand wraps would be nice.

[Rameses]

In mod 7 a fully aura specced pure pally will give +4 AC, and the reduced AP cost will make this a common choice among paladins.

And I'm not even sure you have to be pure.

Additionally the Seal of Earth will not stack with the ranger barkskin, unless I'm mistaken of course....

I have no idea. I never run the DQ quest. Can't hardly call it a Raid since it's no challenge.
and I was guessing on Ranger barkskin.

[KoboldKiller]

I will reserve all comments, speculation, ideas and dreams until we actually have Monk's and I am able to play with some builds to see what the reality will be.

[galoor]

not bad rameses, my only comment would be with that build your standing to hit is only :-

12 base
10 dex (assuming finesse)
+5 weapon
-5 CE
so 22

this is not a great number in the shroud

[EinarMal]

To me if you can use flurry of blows with TWF that would be the way to go, so almost like a Tempest style Ranger build but even more attacks for puncturing, vorpraling etc...

I was thinking Drow Monk 13/Pally 3, so you get improved flurry of blows, evasion, and great saves. At end game you are dual wielding vorpral kamas and the like...

Stats:
Str 10 (16)
Dex 16 (32)
Con 14 (22)
Int 10 (10)
Wis 14 (20)
Cha 14 (20)

Feats:
1-Weapon Finesse
3-TWF
6-Toughness
9-ITWF
12-IC Piercing
15-GTWF

HP:
134 +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +96(Con) +18(Minos) +18(Tough) +5(Enh.)=331

Not the greatest hit points, but you should have a pretty solid AC while TWF, and you have evasion and excellent saves. Unless they give monks toughness enhancements that is going to be the weakest link.

[Illuminati]

I goofed with a few hundred builds (no kidding) on paper so far. There are only two that seem to work and that is because CE coupled with half BaB is horrid. So both of the ones I favor at the moment are monk splashes.

Winchester 30/30 (Ranger 12/Fighter2/Monk2)
Elf
15 (8 pts) (6item, 2tome, 2 spell, 4 level, 1 enh) = 30
17 (8 pts) (6 item, 5 Enh, 2tome) = 30
12 (6 pts) (6item) = 18
12 (4 pts) (1tome) = 13
14 (5 pts) (6 Item, 1 Enh) = 21
8

1) Dodge 3) Mobility 4FTR1)Spring Attack 6) Toughness 8FTR2) IC: Pierce 9) OTWF 12) Toughnesss 15) Combat Expertise 15Monk1) Power Attack 16Monk2) *Some other feat they let monks have

HP:
120 Ranger/Monk
20 Fighter
30 GFL
10 Favor
80 Con
36 Toughness x2
18 Toughness Helm
5 Enhancement
319


The other is Dex based with Pally 3 / Monk 1 / Rgr 12 that rocks around a 69 AC fully geared.

Anyway, I am pretty excited about them.

[Impaqt]

not bad rameses, my only comment would be with that build your standing to hit is only :-

12 base
10 dex (assuming finesse)
+5 weapon
-5 CE
so 22

this is not a great number in the shroud


Again, Your not counting all too common Buffs.

Yes, I fyou build a Monk with Little Str, hes going to be bad. Yes, If you dump a Lot of points into Dex and Dont take Weapon FInesse hes going to be bad.

Even withthis breakdown, your way low on your average to hit calculations...

12 Base
10 Dex (W/ FInese)
+5 Weapon
+2 (We will almost certainly see an Enhancment for Quarterstaves/Kamas)
+4 Greater Heroism (Get a Gird if you like to runthe shround with no caster:confused:)
---
+31
-5 CE
---
+26 First Swing for a 26/26/ 26/26 31/31 31/31 36/36 Fury

Now lets add some more Common buffs...
+26
4 Divine Power Clicky
3 Warchanter In the Group (+4 from GH goes to +7 fromthe song)
2 Recitation (+2 To Hit, AC and Saves)
---
+34 First Swing for a +34/+34 +34/+34 +39/+39 +39/+39 +44/+44 Flury

Seems like a Pretty Solid Flury of Blows to me. Even if you SUbtract 5-6 Attack Bonus if you Gimp your Monks Str or Dex.

[Rameses]

not bad rameses, my only comment would be with that build your standing to hit is only :-

12 base
10 dex (assuming finesse)
+5 weapon
-5 CE
so 22

this is not a great number in the shroud

ROFL! Not everything is gonna REVOLVE around the shroud.

[galoor]

Rameses, I know not everything is going to revolve around the shroud, but your figures for AC means you have a to hit of a caster class and i dont think i would want to party with a meleeing caster, lol, ok you have a few more hp's but i know casters with mid 40's AC and over 200 hp's.
I am not knocking your build, just equating it to my own conclusion of at least 1 thing been gimped.

ok so from what iam seeing i was correct, the best figures average to AC is around mid to high 40's, hp's low to mid 300's and to hit (standing) 27 ish. This isnt too far from my rogue and i consider him squishy and definately not a character i WANT to get hit.

Guess i will have to wait and see, but iam not going to be impressed if its only function turns out to be a splash class.

[Rameses]

ok so from what iam seeing i was correct, the best figures average to AC is around mid to high 40's, hp's low to mid 300's and to hit (standing) 27 ish. This isnt too far from my rogue and i consider him squishy and definately not a character i WANT to get hit.

Guess i will have to wait and see, but iam not going to be impressed if its only function turns out to be a splash class.

only extreme min/maxxer powergamers they will see Monks as only a splash class. But don't fret a High AC and decent stats wont be hard to achieve.

[Taerdra]

I goofed with a few hundred builds (no kidding) on paper so far. There are only two that seem to work and that is because CE coupled with half BaB is horrid. So both of the ones I favor at the moment are monk splashes.

Winchester 30/30 (Ranger 12/Fighter2/Monk2)
Elf
15 (8 pts) (6item, 2tome, 2 spell, 4 level, 1 enh) = 30
17 (8 pts) (6 item, 5 Enh, 2tome) = 30
12 (6 pts) (6item) = 18
12 (4 pts) (1tome) = 13
14 (5 pts) (6 Item, 1 Enh) = 21
8

1) Dodge 3) Mobility 4FTR1)Spring Attack 6) Toughness 8FTR2) IC: Pierce 9) OTWF 12) Toughnesss 15) Combat Expertise 15Monk1) Power Attack 16Monk2) *Some other feat they let monks have

HP:
120 Ranger/Monk
20 Fighter
30 GFL
10 Favor
80 Con
36 Toughness x2
18 Toughness Helm
5 Enhancement
319


The other is Dex based with Pally 3 / Monk 1 / Rgr 12 that rocks around a 69 AC fully geared.

Anyway, I am pretty excited about them.

Depending on implementation, Monk 11 > Ranger 11 imo especially if you're looking to lvl 20 at Monk 11/Ranger 7/Pally 2 and go the DEX route. Enhancements will make a huge difference as well. It is just too early to tell to be honest... especially given that they seem to be talking about a broader feat set, Qi, etc.

Don't get me wrong... these are both very good builds though and imho the best given what we know atm.

Let the speculation continue! :)

[Aspenor]

Rameses, I know not everything is going to revolve around the shroud, but your figures for AC means you have a to hit of a caster class and i dont think i would want to party with a meleeing caster, lol, ok you have a few more hp's but i know casters with mid 40's AC and over 200 hp's.
I am not knocking your build, just equating it to my own conclusion of at least 1 thing been gimped.

ok so from what iam seeing i was correct, the best figures average to AC is around mid to high 40's, hp's low to mid 300's and to hit (standing) 27 ish. This isnt too far from my rogue and i consider him squishy and definately not a character i WANT to get hit.

Guess i will have to wait and see, but iam not going to be impressed if its only function turns out to be a splash class.

You've obviously not ever partied with a well-equipped and well-played melee-caster. They are among the most surviveable of characters out there.

[Rameses]

You've obviously not ever partied with a well-equipped and well-played melee-caster. They are among the most surviveable of characters out there.

I'd agree with this statement.

[galoor]

No i cant say i have played with many meleeing casters to make an opinion, i prefer pure class builds.

I just thought of a way they may use to make this better, inate (hefty) DR available through enhancements, after all bruce lee could take a pounding before becoming incapped, lol......ok just a thought, no need to reply :)

[Shaamis]

My drunken style dwarven monk

Name: Shaamis "Kegtapper" BloodAxe- 32 point build

S; 14 stat item (+6) tome (+2) 22
D; 16 level incr.(+3), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 27
C; 14 race incr. (+2), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 24
I; 10 10
W; 16 level inc.(+1), monk enh.incr. (+3), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 28
Ch; 8 (race decr.(-2) 8

if I min/maxed for primo dex/wis stats:

S; 8 stat item (+6) tome (+2) 16 (loss of 6)
D; 18 level incr.(+3), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 29 (gain of 2)
C; 8 race incr. (+2), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 18 (loss of 6)
I; 8 8 (loss of 2)
W; 18 level inc.(+1), monk enh.incr. (+3), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 30 (gain of 2)
Ch; 8 (race decr.(-2) 8 (no gain/loss)


If i split the difference:


S; 11 stat item (+6) tome (+2) 19 (loss of 3)
D; 17 level incr.(+3), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 28 (gain of 1)
C; 11 race incr. (+2), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 21 (loss of 3)
I; 8 10 (loss of 2)
W; 17 level inc.(+1), monk enh.incr. (+3), stat item (+6) tome (+2) 29 (gain of 1)
Ch; 8 (race decr.(-2) 8 (no gain/loss)

truly does split the difference, but still, the difference all three of these builds could be made up with spells, buffs, feats, or enhancements.

I'm going with the first option, for survivability.

22 str (+6 damage) +2d8 base damage (monk unarmed attack)+ weapon spec. (up to +4) = 19 damage avg. /attack (x5) before flurry of blows, or any enhancements.
27 dex (+8 to hit (finess)) + weapon focus/gr. focus (up to +2) +0 - +5 (weapon or HtH, avg +3) = +15/+20/+25/+25/+25 before flurry of blows, flanking, or any enhancements
24 con (+7 HP/level * 16 = 112) + (16 levels * 8hp/level = 128) + (20 hp (for 1st level)) + (dwarven toughness I-IV enh.= 50) + toughness feat =18) = 328

AC
10 (base) + 3 (monk lvl bump) + 8 (dex) + 9 (wis) +7 (bracers) + 1 (dodge feat) +3 (chattering ring dodge bonus) +3 (barkskin pot) +5 (deflection item)= 49 give or take.....

From the SRD:
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10 Ki strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#kiStrike) (adamantine), slow fall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#slowFall) 80 ft. +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 2d8 +3 +50 ft.
It will be AWESOME when the monks are zipping around at 100%+ faster run rate than everyone else.

[sigtrent]

Usualy monks using flurry get a full bab progression towards the higher levels even though they have a 3/4 basic bab. Same for monk weapons.

I kind of doubt we will see TWF and Flurry combined even though you can do that in D&D. Its a rarely used rule and we all know how the animations work in the game, aka every type of weapon has a single type of animation. Unarmed flurry from the video seems to have a particular animation set so it will likely be its own animal.

I'm guessing for pure monk we will see two or three basic strategies....

#1. The evasion dex monk, likely halfling using agro reduction and AC for defense with sneak attack and monk base damage providing the kick. A lot like a ranger build. (Splash a level of palladin and rogue perhaps.)

#2. The pure strentgh based tactics monk using stunning fist or what have you as CC and featuring HP over AC. Dwarf is going to be popular no doubt due to toughness and the con bonus and cha being a dump stat for monks.

#3. The balanced monk, just about any race. A mix of stats going for a balance of the two approaches above. Very much like a generic paladin when all is said and done. A mid range dps character who has strong survivability but tending more to tactics than a paladin and a bit less to tanking.

Lots of multi class potential! I especialy like a level of cleric for self healing and early game buffs to easy you through those low levels. Using monk as an evasion splash instead of rogue for dex based classes builds could well be quite popular.

[heimdallii]

Wondering if shield clickies/scrolls/etc play into AC for the Monk correct? That said, I can't recall if theres anything in loot table higher than caster level 1 for such items? Anyone remember having seen a higher level wand perhaps? +4 shield bonus to AC would be nice to add in....

Thanks!

[Taerdra]

I kind of doubt we will see TWF and Flurry combined even though you can do that in D&D. Its a rarely used rule and we all know how the animations work in the game, aka every type of weapon has a single type of animation. Unarmed flurry from the video seems to have a particular animation set so it will likely be its own animal.


Hadn't thought about the animation issue... that puts a fly in the proverbial ointment. I would agree with your assessment of the options for full monks as well.

Anyone who has optimized a monk for PnP has "used" the TWF/FoB ruling and it appeared in both NWNs, so I think it's hard to say the rule is rare. In NWN, you could use it with Kamas, but couldn't get the double benefit on unarmed attacks. Maybe we'll get lucky... I'm not going to hold my breath though.

[Pellegro]

I had assumed that the various Monk Poses (or styles or whatever they're calling them) would provide substantial benefits.

So if you're in the defense style, that mediocre AC you're seeing here would suddenly be pretty darn nice.

Or the attack style (Fire?), the to-hit & damage will get a big bonus.

Just my assumption ....