Mob To-Hit Bonus

[Kaldaka]

I know the AC threads have been discussed thoroughly in the last couple weeks, but I wanted to try and figure something out.

The problem is that the Mobs we face continue to have seemingly never-ending ever-increasing to-hit bonuses (say that three times fast :D). But my question is, WHY DON'T WE???? A tanks to-hit bonus has not gone up much with the level cap increase from 14 to 16 (only +2 from BAB ). As it stands now: No +7 STR items, there isn't a fourth stackable rage clickie :D, +5 is still the highest weapon bonus (there is righteousness, but that was available at level 14), no +4 tomes dropping outta the raids, the only non-BAB increase might be from the +1 stat increase at 16 (but that makes most tanks STR odd ;)). So why exactly do Mobs not follow in this same logic???

As stated by Bor in an earlier thread, the mobs seem to be adding +20 to their to-hit rolls in MOD 6, to me that just seems utterly rediculous.

[Kamboe]

See how we are beating these quest? If we got the same to-hit bonus the mobs did, we would pwn these quest w/o anyone taking a scratch...

When we beat down the new raid 5 days after it comes out, I'd say they are perfect with the to-hit system atm

[Kaldaka]

If we got the same to-hit bonus the mobs did, we would pwn these quest w/o anyone taking a scratch...


Hmm . . . my though was not that we should get the same to-hit bonus as them, or even that they get the same to-hit bonuses as us. I'm just pointing out that herein lies the issue with AC builds and why they are about to go the way of the dinosaur.


See how we are beating these quest?

We are beating the quest because clerics are GULPING down mana pots, buying heal scrolls by the 100s and basically spending every last copper piece to keep the barbarians healed up. Talk about killing the game economy. I know a lot of people who had a whole lotta plat, who are now totally broke because of the Shroud.

[Kamboe]

We are beating the quest because clerics are GULPING down mana pots, buying heal scrolls by the 100s and basically spending every last copper piece to keep the barbarians healed up. Talk about killing the game economy. I know a lot of people who had a whole lotta plat, who are now totally broke because of the Shroud.

You have to drink mana pots in what quest? Part 4 and 5 of the raid are the only ones i have to dirnk mana pots in, sometime i dont even have to drink em, i just use heal scrolls constantly. I use maybe 200-300 heal scrolls per raid completion if we dont summon a Rest Shrine via cake

[Kaldaka]

You have to drink mana pots in what quest? Part 4 and 5 of the raid are the only ones i have to dirnk mana pots in, sometime i dont even have to drink em, i just use heal scrolls constantly. I use maybe 200-300 heal scrolls per raid completion if we dont summon a Rest Shrine via cake

Yes I was referring to the shroud:


who are now totally broke because of the Shroud.

You do admit to drinking the pots and using hundreds of heal scrolls for completion, which IMO has become a REQUIREMENT for completion. You do mention those cake shrines, but what happens when the cakes run out? Hell, what happens when the plat for the scrolls/pots runs out? I know people who don't cleric the shroud anymore because they are broke from running it too many times. It is absurd to me that the Shroud has become such a huge plat sink for clerics.

If this is a sign of things to come, the Devs obviously have NO Cleric love whatsoever

[Deriaz]

I know people who don't cleric the shroud anymore because they are broke from running it too many times. It is absurd to me that the Shroud has become such a huge plat sink for clerics.

If this is a sign of things to come, the Devs obviously have NO Cleric love whatsoever

I haven't been in the Shroud personally, as I can't get raid ready for it (Darn you, Warforged haters! *Shakes fist menacingly.*). But I've heard the same thing.

I dunno how the fight with the Pit Fiend goes, but if he's got as much HP as they say. . . If I was a Dev, I'd at least, for a start, make the fight a little more. . . "SP-friendly." Maybe have the Pit Fiend disappear at 66% health, and 33% health for about 30 seconds. At that time, a rest shrine or something would spawn. That way, it's not all down to those hundreds of scrolls when you're out of SP.

I know, it's probably a stupid idea. Probably make the fight incredibly easy. But it's the first thing that came to my head.

Also, as for the To-Hit logic. . . I've heard a theory that the To-Hit is so high to make up for how easy it is to get AC for the players. I mean, when you're running around with 70 AC, obviously, the Devs have to do something to make you non-invincible. The only problem there is that. . . The lower AC players, like those of us that are around maybe 30-40 (If we're lucky) get nailed like we're standing in front of the enemy, just begging for a club in the face.

As for that problem. . . I wish I had an idea. :x

-D

[Mhykke]

I mean, when you're running around with 70 AC, obviously, the Devs have to do something to make you non-invincible.

That's what the 200+ hit point delayed blast fireballs are for....

And it's not all that easy to get AC. Much easier to get damage/specialty weapons, than to achieve that AC. Much.

[Deriaz]

That's what the 200+ hit point delayed blast fireballs are for....

And it's not all that easy to get AC. Much easier to get damage/specialty weapons, than to achieve that AC. Much.

Is that the Pit Fiend that throws those? If so, didn't know about those. Yeah, those would be good at plowing through someone, I'm sure. XD

But as for AC, I know it's not easy to get. I can't get above 42, and that's with a whole line of buffs for my Fighter, so for those that do have the 60, 70s. . . Even high 50s, it's impressive. But with builds and guides and things like that floating around that are readily available, it isn't hard to take one and build a character to get that AC. Granted, you need the gear to match, but that's just a matter of how much money you have, or how much time you're willing to put in to loot run until you can get that item.

But going back to the guide thing, I've been encountering more and more characters that are "AC-specced". It still brings up the point that even normal monsters have to have the To-Hit to get through that, while the lesser AC characters then just get bulldozed.

-D

[Kaldaka]

characters that are "AC-specced". It still brings up the point that even normal monsters have to have the To-Hit to get through that, while the lesser AC characters then just get bulldozed.

And that brings back the point that Clerics get HOSED on this deal

[Deriaz]

And that brings back the point that Clerics get HOSED on this deal

*Nods.* I won't argue that. I've been hesitant to level my own Cleric, because of all of the plat I've heard people sink on that raid, and on some of the higher level stuff. Makes me a little annoyed, too--last game I played, I was a healer. I loved it, mostly because I didn't need to be rich to do it. Here, though, I wish I could play a healer, but I don't know if I'll be able to any time soon, due to To-Hits, costs (or I should say "costs that people expect you to use") to play a Cleric, etc.

-D

[Mhykke]

Is that the Pit Fiend that throws those? If so, didn't know about those. Yeah, those would be good at plowing through someone, I'm sure. XD

But as for AC, I know it's not easy to get. I can't get above 42, and that's with a whole line of buffs for my Fighter, so for those that do have the 60, 70s. . . Even high 50s, it's impressive. But with builds and guides and things like that floating around that are readily available, it isn't hard to take one and build a character to get that AC. Granted, you need the gear to match, but that's just a matter of how much money you have, or how much time you're willing to put in to loot run until you can get that item.

But going back to the guide thing, I've been encountering more and more characters that are "AC-specced". It still brings up the point that even normal monsters have to have the To-Hit to get through that, while the lesser AC characters then just get bulldozed.

-D

Well that's the big debate isn't it?

Is it right that a character has an easier time going max DPS, which is effective at the highest lvls of content, where someone has to go through many more pains to get very high AC, which is almost meaningless at the highest lvls of content?

[Selinius]

*Nods.* I won't argue that. I've been hesitant to level my own Cleric, because of all of the plat I've heard people sink on that raid, and on some of the higher level stuff. Makes me a little annoyed, too--last game I played, I was a healer. I loved it, mostly because I didn't need to be rich to do it. Here, though, I wish I could play a healer, but I don't know if I'll be able to any time soon, due to To-Hits, costs (or I should say "costs that people expect you to use") to play a Cleric, etc.

-D

Umm, stupid question here, but why aren't the clerics running the shroud showing up and saying, "I have 100 heal scrolls and a csw wand. You want more healing than that, you buy it and I will use it." If all the "uber" barbs and fighters want that I.V. hook-up from the cleric, they can **** well pay for it. I have a cleric that is shroud ready, and he has only been in their twice, both completions. Haven't been bankrupted yet, but then I didn't run my cleric much when the necro came out due to my not wanting to dump plat on healing people. Clerics will continue to be broke till they all grow a pair and tell the melees to start paying for the healing they recieve. I am not saying that melees need to buy every single heal scroll that a cleric uses, but they can buy a stack or 2 to help out and dole them out as needed.

On a side note, I am seeing more people who run clerics have a high level bard to help offset the "costs" of running their cleric.

[Emili]

Well that's the big debate isn't it?

Is it right that a character has an easier time going max DPS, which is effective at the highest lvls of content, where someone has to go through many more pains to get very high AC, which is almost meaningless at the highest lvls of content?


There are a lot more variables involved then this... AC, Saves, HP, spell casting, and healing potential all come into play. It's not surprising AC took a back seat when some classes breach 400hp and some classes save require a 2 and a caster can cast 2000hp damage spells and a cleric can heal crit for 1000hp and pick up enogh heal scrolls to shower a party of 12... It's more like they're giving the mob a chance. It's truely a heck of a balancing act to try to get by. Plus it stems from pigeon-holing classes to extremes. If the highest AC, Saves, HP, spell casting, DPS are over 100% more then the average obtainable by a pure any-other-class then you get this breakdown. ie.) 600+hp Barbarian vs 200+hp rogue, 70ac+ tank vs 35ac+ barb, 40+save pally vs 20+save fighter... under these circumstances since we're dealing with a d20's and d100's there is little room for balancing to the average class character because the character/class extreme is far above the the average of another class.

Basically I'm saying it cannot be balanced at all because the ac possible for a tank is at least twice then the average AC attainable by the sorc... the highest HP of a barb is at least three times the average HP of a sorc... the highest damage output of a DPS is at least twice-ten times the average dps of a non- DPS character... saves follow suit...

This all stems from the MMO aspect of the game... and the non-MMO aspect of the underlying ruleset - DnD - where the game was based. The minute people said Barbarian means DPS, Sorc means cannon, Cleric means Heal, Fighter means AC, The versitility which were once part of the classes goes out the window... and something has to give in the balance... In order for the Tank's AC to matter in this case would mean to lower the to-hit of the mob... then not only does the Tank's AC become meaningfull but so does the BArbarians to some extent... thus we'd have to back off on the barb's DPS, And the Casters DPS, etc... to give the mob a fighting chance again.

So you tell me... how do the devs manage to balance this all out without giving someone an insta-win ticket.

[Deriaz]

Umm, stupid question here, but why aren't the clerics running the shroud showing up and saying, "I have 100 heal scrolls and a csw wand. You want more healing than that, you buy it and I will use it." If all the "uber" barbs and fighters want that I.V. hook-up from the cleric, they can **** well pay for it. I have a cleric that is shroud ready, and he has only been in their twice, both completions. Haven't been bankrupted yet, but then I didn't run my cleric much when the necro came out due to my not wanting to dump plat on healing people. Clerics will continue to be broke till they all grow a pair and tell the melees to start paying for the healing they recieve. I am not saying that melees need to buy every single heal scroll that a cleric uses, but they can buy a stack or 2 to help out and dole them out as needed.

On a side note, I am seeing more people who run clerics have a high level bard to help offset the "costs" of running their cleric.

See, maybe I'm just spoiled by the other game. But I don't like the idea of needing to pay to be an efficient healer. Your SP bar should be good enough. Anything else like scrolls are just extra. But more and more, with people going to DPS and less AC, due to To-Hits, it's like you need to spend more and more to keep them alive and keep the party going. I don't like that prospect.

I like watching red bars (Crazy, I know.). I don't like watching wallets, inventories, and vendors for deals. >>

-D

[BlueLightBandit]

Even high AC characters need healing too. It's not like characters with low ac cost the clerics more... especially considering that a majority of the damage done at higher levels comes from magic (a lot of mobs attacks are considered magical IIRC) and thus bypass any and all AC.

Further, if you sacrifice HP for a higher AC... then the cleric spends just as much mana raising you, as he does healing others.

AC is really not a smart tactic at the highest levels. That's not an opinion... that's a fact. It's just not a sound investment, much like a bards perform skill or a rogues evasion against traps... maybe they're not working as intended, but that's the way the game is.

[Borror0]

In order for the Tank's AC to matter in this case would mean to lower the to-hit of the mob... then not only does the Tank's AC become meaningfull but so does the BArbarians to some extent... thus we'd have to back off on the barb's DPS, And the Casters DPS, etc... to give the mob a fighting chance again.

So you tell me... how do the devs manage to balance this all out without giving someone an insta-win ticket.

The one that will tell me that the barbarians need more DPS will get alughed at. Sorcerers cannot blow through a quest like they used to last module, but that's a good thing. they still remain quite useful and very powerful. Neither of them would need an increase of DPS. I think that everyone will agree on that.

By lowering the mobs' to-hit, you will make lower AC matter, but how much? Unless they go and make 35-40 AC worth it, I doubt you'll see any barb going for AC. And even if they do, more power to them: it's not easy getting more AC. Or at least, not as easy as it is to get high DPS.

Lately, I entered the Shroud on Normal, Hard and Elite. On normal, 55 AC was not getting at all... well, like 20% tops! (I'll go back for more accurate numbers as soon as I get off timer) On Hard, I was getting hit 63,2% of the time with a 57 AC. And on elite... I was getting hit 95% of the time... 57 AC!!! Versus the Elite Orthon, I was getting sliced through like butter! Then, don't get me started on the red named in part 2 or even less the pit fiend!! This is riddiculous. My friend reported that a 66 AC wasn't doing much good versus the named Orthon in part 2... and he could barely hit the guy... with a +3 of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane. To hit him, he had to turn CE off... but there his AC dropped to 61...

However, I'll agree on one point, though. It is very hard to balance within a d20... and to consider all the buffs possible. But neither shoudl they consider all the possible buff.

So, they added a +4 Insight wweapon? Well, I don't own one yet. Neither will I be able to weild it all the time. what if I need a Curespewer? (Yes, I try to curse red names) Or a Vorpal? Or a Banisher? What if I'd like to use a Paralyzer? Will I'll get one, I might not use it all the time... or if I will, I'll loose a lot from it. Did they forget that? AC is not free, it's lots of efforts to get and has a costs in inventory slot!

So, bards got Inspire Heroics? You guys know how often I run into bards in a PuG? Do you know how much of them cast it? First, they got to be at least 15 bard, so that excludes to 14 bard/2 fighter builds, two 14 bard/2 rogue builds and the kind. Also excludes the non-capped splashed builds... or those that are still level 14! Then, you got to think of those that don't know what's for, or those that don't feel like buffing you with it every 7 minutes. Because, yes, that is a single target buff that only affects one party member at a time. So, if you want to buff everyone in the party with it, it'll cost 6 songs... or 12 in a raid... and you'll have to sing again, every 7 minutes.. or less. Not that easy to get that 4 AC. And I'll repeat it again, I don't have a Bard in my group all the time!

Oh, then, there are paladin! Well, as a start almost every AC build has 2 or 3 paladin levels. So, a paladin has a maximum of +3 to +2 AC most of the time. that is if he paid for it. It might get more common post-module 7, but right now, I haven't seen a paladin with Bulwark of Good IV. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I played with a paladin. Most of them aren't played anymore, because they had AC as their main asset... and now they need a lot for it to work... and they can't make it reach it that high. And of the few paladin I encounter, very little have Bulwark of Good III, most stop at II...

Oh, now you got rangers' Barkskin! But that's a +2, max... when you got a ranger. That's not all the time.

There is also Recitation, but most cleric don't cast it because "AC is dead" and it lasts not very long.

Sure, with all of that my tank goes up from 58 AC Hasted to 75 AC! But how often is that going to happen? Oh, while you're at it you could also factor in debuff... but let's keep that for red named... for the rare instances where casters actually debuff..

Now, what's my point? Well, sure you can get crazy high AC! But it's hard, and getting 75 AC is very rare! With al the perfect buff I vary from 17 points? So? How often is thaqt going to happen. If you got that party, more power to you. Getting 58 AC by yourself takes already lots of efforts. That's a +5 MFP, +5 MTS, Chattering Ring, Chaosgarde, +5 Protection a whole pile of Barkskin potions and you got to stay out of the god **** Rage that people cast just to mess up your AC without any warning!!! It's been said that Turbien should not plan for the powergamers, so why do I need such a high AC. I understand it's Elite, but Elite means it's harder... not that barbs totally pwns the fighters.

[Borror0]

AC is really not a smart tactic at the highest levels. That's not an opinion... that's a fact. It's just not a sound investment, much like a bards perform skill or a rogues evasion against traps... maybe they're not working as intended, but that's the way the game is.

You do realise that a bard's perform skill enables him to sing his songs? A bard with 0 perform as no songs... You also do know that Evasion doesn't work only versus trap but also versus every damaging spells? Thoseyou said are the biggest source of damage at high levels?:D

then, maybe AC isn't the "most efficient" but it is still quite good. I'd be dump to say DPS isn't ruling the end game, but that doesn't mean AC can contribute. We don't all play the most efficient tons, otherwise there would have only Barbarians, sorcerers and cleric in our group, back in module 4... oh, and warchanters when they got popular.

Fact is, an intimitank is tons of Fun to play. It's quite effective... except on Elite Shroud.

[Kaldaka]

Fact is, an intimitank is tons of Fun to play. It's quite effective... except on Elite Shroud.


And obviously this is just a sign of things to come with the next cap increase. If things continue the way they are going, AC will become ABSOLUTELY meaningless, and Clerics will become totally broke, anybody who doesn't have a Cleric now aint gonna roll one, NO FREAKING WAY. Anybody who has a lowbie Cleric is prolly gonna stop leveling him unless something is done. Hell, I see the day coming where all the Clerics are gonna go on strike, and this game will absolutely grind to a HALT. I can only assume this is what the Devs want?? Because it is coming.

[Borror0]

I can only assume this is what the Devs want?? Because it is coming.

I'm wondering that too, not in the way you're presenting it, but I wonder if the Devs do desire AC to be thrown at the garbage, for good.

However, I disagree with clerics getting broke and the sort. Honeslty, if you got enough DPS in a party, there is less healing needed. The problem is those AC guys without intimidate that get their aggro stolen by the barbarian's glancing blows. I mean, if you got AC, make the whole party take advantage of it. Otherwise, you're lowering the overall DPS and even though you're cheaper to heal, you're maknig the barbarian more expensive to heal.

[BlueLightBandit]

You do realise that a bard's perform skill enables him to sing his songs? A bard with 0 perform as no songs... You also do know that Evasion doesn't work only versus trap but also versus every damaging spells? Thoseyou said are the biggest source of damage at high levels?:D

then, maybe AC isn't the "most efficient" but it is still quite good. I'd be dump to say DPS isn't ruling the end game, but that doesn't mean AC can contribute. We don't all play the most efficient tons, otherwise there would have only Barbarians, sorcerers and cleric in our group, back in module 4... oh, and warchanters when they got popular.

Fact is, an intimitank is tons of Fun to play. It's quite effective... except on Elite Shroud.

Certainly... but once he/she/it reaches 12 ranks (is it 12 or 15, I forget) they're done... it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING after that.

Which is precisely why I said there are a lot of instances where certain in game features are simply useless. A bards perform skill is the same at 15 as it is at 712. A rogues evasion is useless against traps. And a tanks AC is worthless in the highest level content.

My point was that while these things have their use... a high dps, high hit point character is useful more often, even more so at the highest level content.

Borr, you're a champion for AC... and you've got my respect for that. But AC only takes you so far in this game.

[Swordalot]

A rogues evasion is useless against traps.

What?!
Not when you actually make the saves.
Buddy of mine's Batman only has regular evasion and can *walk* through the Litany Force trap on elite. I imagine that with a +40 to her reflex, there's little she can't do.

[Kaldaka]

What?!
Not when you actually make the saves.
Buddy of mine's Batman only has regular evasion and can *walk* through the Litany Force trap on elite. I imagine that with a +40 to her reflex, there's little she can't do.

Nice...but those pesky 1s :D

[Kamboe]

Umm, stupid question here, but why aren't the clerics running the shroud showing up and saying, "I have 100 heal scrolls and a csw wand. You want more healing than that, you buy it and I will use it."

bc then you sound like an @$$


The Shroud may cost alot of money, but if your running low stop running it!

And when your recovering for 2 days 18 hours from completions, go do some old school loot runs....do the new devil assult quest elite and get some Shroud lvl loot, a 5 min Trial elite run, or heck even some Fire Giant Caves :P

[Swordalot]

Nice...but those pesky 1s :D

Simple solution is to implement the feat that lets you count any natural 1 as a natural 20.
Can't remember the name, or ifit's from some prestige class. But it exists.

[Emili]

The one that will tell me that the barbarians need more DPS will get alughed at. Sorcerers cannot blow through a quest like they used to last module, but that's a good thing. they still remain quite useful and very powerful. Neither of them would need an increase of DPS. I think that everyone will agree on that.

By lowering the mobs' to-hit, you will make lower AC matter, but how much? Unless they go and make 35-40 AC worth it, I doubt you'll see any barb going for AC. And even if they do, more power to them: it's not easy getting more AC. Or at least, not as easy as it is to get high DPS.

Lately, I entered the Shroud on Normal, Hard and Elite. On normal, 55 AC was not getting at all... well, like 20% tops! (I'll go back for more accurate numbers as soon as I get off timer) On Hard, I was getting hit 63,2% of the time with a 57 AC. And on elite... I was getting hit 95% of the time... 57 AC!!! Versus the Elite Orthon, I was getting sliced through like butter! Then, don't get me started on the red named in part 2 or even less the pit fiend!! This is riddiculous. My friend reported that a 66 AC wasn't doing much good versus the named Orthon in part 2... and he could barely hit the guy... with a +3 of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane. To hit him, he had to turn CE off... but there his AC dropped to 61...

However, I'll agree on one point, though. It is very hard to balance within a d20... and to consider all the buffs possible. But neither shoudl they consider all the possible buff.

So, they added a +4 Insight wweapon? Well, I don't own one yet. Neither will I be able to weild it all the time. what if I need a Curespewer? (Yes, I try to curse red names) Or a Vorpal? Or a Banisher? What if I'd like to use a Paralyzer? Will I'll get one, I might not use it all the time... or if I will, I'll loose a lot from it. Did they forget that? AC is not free, it's lots of efforts to get and has a costs in inventory slot!

So, bards got Inspire Heroics? You guys know how often I run into bards in a PuG? Do you know how much of them cast it? First, they got to be at least 15 bard, so that excludes to 14 bard/2 fighter builds, two 14 bard/2 rogue builds and the kind. Also excludes the non-capped splashed builds... or those that are still level 14! Then, you got to think of those that don't know what's for, or those that don't feel like buffing you with it every 7 minutes. Because, yes, that is a single target buff that only affects one party member at a time. So, if you want to buff everyone in the party with it, it'll cost 6 songs... or 12 in a raid... and you'll have to sing again, every 7 minutes.. or less. Not that easy to get that 4 AC. And I'll repeat it again, I don't have a Bard in my group all the time!

Oh, then, there are paladin! Well, as a start almost every AC build has 2 or 3 paladin levels. So, a paladin has a maximum of +3 to +2 AC most of the time. that is if he paid for it. It might get more common post-module 7, but right now, I haven't seen a paladin with Bulwark of Good IV. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I played with a paladin. Most of them aren't played anymore, because they had AC as their main asset... and now they need a lot for it to work... and they can't make it reach it that high. And of the few paladin I encounter, very little have Bulwark of Good III, most stop at II...

Oh, now you got rangers' Barkskin! But that's a +2, max... when you got a ranger. That's not all the time.

There is also Recitation, but most cleric don't cast it because "AC is dead" and it lasts not very long.

Sure, with all of that my tank goes up from 58 AC Hasted to 75 AC! But how often is that going to happen? Oh, while you're at it you could also factor in debuff... but let's keep that for red named... for the rare instances where casters actually debuff..

Now, what's my point? Well, sure you can get crazy high AC! But it's hard, and getting 75 AC is very rare! With al the perfect buff I vary from 17 points? So? How often is thaqt going to happen. If you got that party, more power to you. Getting 58 AC by yourself takes already lots of efforts. That's a +5 MFP, +5 MTS, Chattering Ring, Chaosgarde, +5 Protection a whole pile of Barkskin potions and you got to stay out of the god **** Rage that people cast just to mess up your AC without any warning!!! It's been said that Turbien should not plan for the powergamers, so why do I need such a high AC. I understand it's Elite, but Elite means it's harder... not that barbs totally pwns the fighters.


The point I was making though is AC is broken because the mob has high to-hit ... The mob has high to-hit ... because it needs it to do more damage and more often ... It has to do more damage and more often ... because characters have a ton of hp and do more damage, more often and to top it off heal more and more often due to sp and a supply of healing limited only by the amount of plat plus access to a ton of resistances and other things... This all stems from the extreme function or role one can create a character into - thus something ends up giving way... If they lower the mob's to-hit then not only will AC become usable, but it also makes the BARBS HP more potent... thus making the barbs DPS more potent... thus making the sorc's DPS more potent and the healers mana bar more potent. To fix the mob to-hit right now would require reducing the rest of the variables within the system. This has been why I had been against the crazy idea that characters should fall into extreme roles... BArb's never should have been deemed as DPS, neither should casters have had such high output, neither should melee have had toughness enhancement lines, neither should clerics have had life magic and prayer of life... etc... They blew the system out of the water with these pressing classes into doing one or two things 100% or more better in one area then the other... The game this was based on did not have the wide margins between classes which DDO has thus these systems, although not really balanced, were still within reach of one another.

[EspyLacopa]

The point I was making though is AC is broken because the mob has high to-hit ... The mob has high to-hit ... because it needs it to do more damage and more often ... It has to do more damage and more often ... because characters have a ton of hp and do more damage, more often and to top it off heal more and more often due to sp and a supply of healing limited only by the amount of plat plus access to a ton of resistances and other things... This all stems from the extreme function or role one can create a character into - thus something ends up giving way... If they lower the mob's to-hit then not only will AC become usable, but it also makes the BARBS HP more potent... thus making the barbs DPS more potent... thus making the sorc's DPS more potent and the healers mana bar more potent. To fix the mob to-hit right now would require reducing the rest of the variables within the system. This has been why I had been against the crazy idea that characters should fall into extreme roles... BArb's never should have been deemed as DPS, neither should casters have had such high output, neither should melee have had toughness enhancement lines, neither should clerics have had life magic and prayer of life... etc... They blew the system out of the water with these pressing classes into doing one or two things 100% or more better in one area then the other... The game this was based on did not have the wide margins between classes which DDO has thus these systems, although not really balanced, were still within reach of one another.



So. . .come right down to it. . .It's all due to change of the game from Turn Based to Real Time, and then to allow combat to last longer than a few seconds.

[Emili]

So. . .come right down to it. . .It's all due to change of the game from Turn Based to Real Time, and then to allow combat to last longer than a few seconds.


No it's not what I said... It's the fact that when you look at what the enhancements do towards the areas of focus... It could have been well real-time and have a long combat but it's the fact of focusing classes into hard extreme roles which brought out more inblance of the underlying rule-set.

There are as many as 3 enhancements in the dps of classes providing more dps, ie. wizard = Elemental Manipulation IV + Lineage of Elements III + Lineage of Deadly Elements III ...or... barbarian = Power Rage IV + Power Attack III + Critical Rage II, Then there are the toughness enhancements which everyone agrees does not scale well 5+10+15+20 hp stacking at IV it's equal to getting 2.5 times the feat? Then the cleric healing lines Life Magic IV + Prayer of Life III + Prayer of Incredible Life III... By comparison Fighter Armor Mastery III and Bulwark of Good III (eventual IV) does not put any fantastic support behind AC lines as the DPS, HP or Healing lines do... ask many an intimidating tank out there the bulk of thier ac lies in more of 2 sets of criteria 1.) CE and 2.) the items they carry. While I'm not saying an SoS or a Deathnip is not important to a DPS barb - they do have more of a foundation within character build itself to make it formidable. To top that off ... the fighter class and pally pally classes are spread thin in enhancencements not focus'd in one direction but a hodge-podge of many... to make the fact that concentrating so hard into something like AC runs them thiner in the other areas. I was here when they took CE enhancements away... I was here when they broke down fighter tactics and broke down a few other things... Everyone here will tell you to get a decent AC these days you're relying on stat, and two feats and some enhancement but most of it is coming from item.

Thus as I stated dessignated specific rolls of some classes and while applicable but less so non-role for some other classes (viewed to be more versitile) is what breaks this down.

Think about it... at this point if all turbine had to do was lower the To-Hit (BaB, str or dex) of a mob making AC meaningful at let's say 50... it would also mean the mob is hitting the Barb for less... every character for less thus the Barb's DPS and the Cleric's healing SP and the Sorc's nuke all become more potent also. Adjusting the mob's to-hit affects every aspect of the game not just AC.

[Invalid_86]

I know the AC threads have been discussed thoroughly in the last couple weeks, but I wanted to try and figure something out.

The problem is that the Mobs we face continue to have seemingly never-ending ever-increasing to-hit bonuses (say that three times fast :D). But my question is, WHY DON'T WE???? A tanks to-hit bonus has not gone up much with the level cap increase from 14 to 16 (only +2 from BAB ). As it stands now: No +7 STR items, there isn't a fourth stackable rage clickie :D, +5 is still the highest weapon bonus (there is righteousness, but that was available at level 14), no +4 tomes dropping outta the raids, the only non-BAB increase might be from the +1 stat increase at 16 (but that makes most tanks STR odd ;)). So why exactly do Mobs not follow in this same logic???

As stated by Bor in an earlier thread, the mobs seem to be adding +20 to their to-hit rolls in MOD 6, to me that just seems utterly rediculous.

Fix the BaB and multiple attacks and you fix that problem. It's that simple.

[Hvymetal]

I think I kinda see Emili's point. It really boils down to the over specialization allowed by the enhancement system and it's current set up. As adjustments are made to take into account charcaters that may be overly specialized in one role, this then puts more pressure on people to specialize in order to remain effective at all.

Really this issue is much larger than DPS vrs. AC, we have seen it's effects on other roles as well, such as the recent DC increase on Elite trap saves, it was causing riddculous over specialization and great gear in order to remain competitive on Elite quests. So explained that way in reality the problem is much more widespread than AC vrs DPS.

[Emili]

What?!
Not when you actually make the saves.
Buddy of mine's Batman only has regular evasion and can *walk* through the Litany Force trap on elite. I imagine that with a +40 to her reflex, there's little she can't do.


Oh because it's a batman and most likely pulling down reflex from the pally side in it...

Tonight I listened to a friend complain... we were in wiz-king elite aye, I know just the two of us but he went in cause he wanted the favor... now we had np duoing this quest before on elite on other characters at level of the quest in fact. In the middle of the night. A 16th level fighter and a 16th level ranger. Well we're doing fine until we get to the switch room where it tells you who you're fighting ... you know the trapped floor switch. Mind you he's a pure ranger with a 35 dex and evasion and it is on elite, plus his GH wore off... and without word he pulls the switch

(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:sonic. You roll a 4 (+22): save failure!

and of course before he has a chance to jump out of the way...
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:sonic. You roll a 18 (+22): save failure!

He took 159 damage off the 1st and 180+ damage on the 2nd save failure...

So then he's in a bad mood ... very bad. I take his stone down to the shrine. and he buffs me up and tells me go ahead, he's quitting... and how it's all about changing the rules under our feet to make us keep rebuilding and grinding away... about how this is the furthest thing from DnD that has come down the pike and about how extremes have made it so it never will play anything like it's namesake and about how it's no different than WOW or Diablo or any other MMO he's ever played. he lay's in how the devs just mess with everything and attempt to toss things out ... just to toss things out, about how rogue's whinned to get some attention in the trap area... about how people should be careful in what they wish for.

All through this I am trying to calm him down... his temper is flaring, maybe he had a rough day? I do not know... even so he's supposively here to relax not get angry. I try to tell him, well it is elite and is suppose to be a challenge and in the next mod the dev's are planning on lowering the elite trap DC's and he's going on about - Well a 35 dex + his resist item should give him a decent reflax save - how is it a roll of 18 is a fail, etc... and about how the devs are a bounch of .... as they're only programmers who toss things out and then take 3-12 months to fix thier silly blunders and about how he should not bother helping to pay thier salaries anymore, and he's out of here.... etc...

The conversation goes on the buffs he's given me wear off... he rebuffs me and logs off his ranger onto his bard. I invite him to group and ask what's going on? His answer, He's done! He's mailing all his stuff to guildies and he's out... Say's he's not uber and never plans to be and that he thinks he should hang up the game now as it's not right of him to b&*(% at me - a pregnant woman - about the shear little ^&*% of a broken game... a game he no longer cares for because he's tired of the changes being put in with no forethought, he's tired of the rules changing under his feat on a whim, and that it's just like every other MMO out there. Then tells me to e-mail him should the dev's ever get thier ^&*% back together and make a game based on DnD.

So... tonight, while some of you may think - Hey, so deal with it. I'll have you all know come tomorow I may be missing a friend I've met in DDO and played DDO with for over two years.:(

[Snoggy]

Maybe have the Pit Fiend disappear at 66% health, and 33% health for about 30 seconds.

The Pit Fiend is on a timer and at regular intervals he does actually 'disappear' and takes flight. He flies overhead. He shoots some fireballs in certain spots (easy to stand aside of). So you do get some downtime. A few tics before other mobs reappear and you have to take them out. Then the Pit Fiend lands again and the fight resumes.

A shrine doesn't appear in these intervals, though, so SP remains a finite resources unless you bring mana potions.

[brshelton]

The Pit Fiend is on a timer and at regular intervals he does actually 'disappear' and takes flight. He flies overhead. He shoots some fireballs in certain spots (easy to stand aside of). So you do get some downtime. A few tics before other mobs reappear and you have to take them out. Then the Pit Fiend lands again and the fight resumes.

A shrine doesn't appear in these intervals, though, so SP remains a finite resources unless you bring mana potions.

theres this thing....its called GASP!!!! PART 5!!! and GASP COMPLETION!!!!

[FluffyCalico]

There are a lot more variables involved then this... AC, Saves, HP, spell casting, and healing potential all come into play. It's not surprising AC took a back seat when some classes breach 400hp and some classes save require a 2 and a caster can cast 2000hp damage spells and a cleric can heal crit for 1000hp and pick up enogh heal scrolls to shower a party of 12... It's more like they're giving the mob a chance. It's truely a heck of a balancing act to try to get by. Plus it stems from pigeon-holing classes to extremes. If the highest AC, Saves, HP, spell casting, DPS are over 100% more then the average obtainable by a pure any-other-class then you get this breakdown. ie.) 600+hp Barbarian vs 200+hp rogue, 70ac+ tank vs 35ac+ barb, 40+save pally vs 20+save fighter... under these circumstances since we're dealing with a d20's and d100's there is little room for balancing to the average class character because the character/class extreme is far above the the average of another class.

Basically I'm saying it cannot be balanced at all because the ac possible for a tank is at least twice then the average AC attainable by the sorc... the highest HP of a barb is at least three times the average HP of a sorc... the highest damage output of a DPS is at least twice-ten times the average dps of a non- DPS character... saves follow suit...

This all stems from the MMO aspect of the game... and the non-MMO aspect of the underlying ruleset - DnD - where the game was based. The minute people said Barbarian means DPS, Sorc means cannon, Cleric means Heal, Fighter means AC, The versitility which were once part of the classes goes out the window... and something has to give in the balance... In order for the Tank's AC to matter in this case would mean to lower the to-hit of the mob... then not only does the Tank's AC become meaningfull but so does the BArbarians to some extent... thus we'd have to back off on the barb's DPS, And the Casters DPS, etc... to give the mob a fighting chance again.

So you tell me... how do the devs manage to balance this all out without giving someone an insta-win ticket.


NO this is not due to MMO, this is due to stupid enhancements and gear

[Emili]

NO this is not due to MMO, this is due to stupid enhancements and gear


In a sense it is... and not is. The enhancements and gear are totally the MMO part of the rules - Barbarian does not deal much more DPS then a fighter or pally in DnD - It's the Enhancements that make it so. Clerics are not as great at healing in DnD... it's the enhancements which make it so... Sorc while powerful in DnD are not as powerful as they are in DDO... it's the enhancements which make it so. Turbine with player base decided this... there really was no reason to take on racial enhancements for a +2 to a stat here and there, there was really no reason to tack on Fighter armour mastery, there was no reason to tack on critical rage... the classes were already defined and the players and Turbine decided - "Each class will excell at a role". that is part of the MMO as designed - the enhancements were put in place as part of the MMO because people said Barb means DPS, Cleric means Heal, Sorc means Cannon, Pally means defense and save, etc... When you start pushing ectreme roles like this you cannot attribute for those which fall between - jack of trades - for too long before the entire thing unravels and starts falling to pieces... then you have to decide if you're going to patch it up and run the risk of upsetting the variables once again.

[FluffyCalico]

In a sense it is... and not is. The enhancements and gear are totally the MMO part of the rules - Barbarian does not deal much more DPS then a fighter or pally in DnD - It's the Enhancements that make it so. Clerics are not as great at healing in DnD... it's the enhancements which make it so... Sorc while powerful in DnD are not as powerful as they are in DDO... it's the enhancements which make it so. Turbine with player base decided this... there really was no reason to take on racial enhancements for a +2 to a stat here and there, there was really no reason to tack on Fighter armour mastery, there was no reason to tack on critical rage... the classes were already defined and the players and Turbine decided - "Each class will excell at a role". that is part of the MMO as designed - the enhancements were put in place as part of the MMO because people said Barb means DPS, Cleric means Heal, Sorc means Cannon, Pally means defense and save, etc... When you start pushing ectreme roles like this you cannot attribute for those which fall between - jack of trades - for too long before the entire thing unravels and starts falling to pieces... then you have to decide if you're going to patch it up and run the risk of upsetting the variables once again.


The #2 complaint opening month was that enhancements took away the dnd aspect makeing characters way too strong. This was when you could have only 4. There were tons of posts asking them to rid the game of them. I see they responded by letting you have like 30 enhancements at the same time instead. And people wonder why now the classes are even futher overpowered

[LOUDRampart]

My level 16 cleric is quite wealthy. Of course I only run him with my guild (well mostly that is) and I never do raids with him. I've decided the cost v. benefit of me running my cleric in raids is not worth it. (Edit: I do the StormReaver with my cleric sometimes if I'm really board).

[EspyLacopa]

In a sense it is... and not is. The enhancements and gear are totally the MMO part of the rules - Barbarian does not deal much more DPS then a fighter or pally in DnD - It's the Enhancements that make it so. Clerics are not as great at healing in DnD... it's the enhancements which make it so... Sorc while powerful in DnD are not as powerful as they are in DDO... it's the enhancements which make it so. Turbine with player base decided this... there really was no reason to take on racial enhancements for a +2 to a stat here and there, there was really no reason to tack on Fighter armour mastery, there was no reason to tack on critical rage... the classes were already defined and the players and Turbine decided - "Each class will excell at a role". that is part of the MMO as designed - the enhancements were put in place as part of the MMO because people said Barb means DPS, Cleric means Heal, Sorc means Cannon, Pally means defense and save, etc... When you start pushing ectreme roles like this you cannot attribute for those which fall between - jack of trades - for too long before the entire thing unravels and starts falling to pieces... then you have to decide if you're going to patch it up and run the risk of upsetting the variables once again.


Original set up in the game, back during it was either Beta or Alpha, was rather similar to D&D. No Heroic Vitality (that +20 HP we all get at first level), and enemies had far less HP.

So, dev's are watching how game runs, and they notice two key things:

Everyone with d4 and d6 (Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogues, and Bards) died very quickly due to frequently having only 4-7 HP at level 1
Monsters would die upon impact with the Fighters and Barbarians due to having only 5 HP vs the melee's large weapons dealing 1d12+6 damage.They fixed that up by giving Players the extra 20 HP, and then boosted Monster HP so that they lasted a bit longer. Now, this wouldn't have been much of a problem at higher levels. . .if it weren't for the next part.

With only 10 Levels, how do they appease the beancounters who say Players won't stand for such a tiny achievement compared to World of Warcraft and their 60+ Levels?And so, they added in Action Points and Enhancements. As has been pointed out. . .Enhancements allow character to specialize far more than a regular D&D character could. And they didn't really look forward(in terms of higher levels) that much. Remember Fighters Action Boost IV back near the start of the game?

So. . .Who do they (the Devs) balance quests for, the Specialist, or the Base-line Character?

[Emili]

Original set up in the game, back during it was either Beta or Alpha, was rather similar to D&D. No Heroic Vitality (that +20 HP we all get at first level), and enemies had far less HP.

So, dev's are watching how game runs, and they notice two key things:

Everyone with d4 and d6 (Wizards, Sorcerers, Rogues, and Bards) died very quickly due to frequently having only 4-7 HP at level 1
Monsters would die upon impact with the Fighters and Barbarians due to having only 5 HP vs the melee's large weapons dealing 1d12+6 damage.They fixed that up by giving Players the extra 20 HP, and then boosted Monster HP so that they lasted a bit longer. Now, this wouldn't have been much of a problem at higher levels. . .if it weren't for the next part.

With only 10 Levels, how do they appease the beancounters who say Players won't stand for such a tiny achievement compared to World of Warcraft and their 60+ Levels?And so, they added in Action Points and Enhancements. As has been pointed out. . .Enhancements allow character to specialize far more than a regular D&D character could. And they didn't really look forward(in terms of higher levels) that much. Remember Fighters Action Boost IV back near the start of the game?

So. . .Who do they (the Devs) balance quests for, the Specialist, or the Base-line Character?


I know I was there... and the devs claim that they have always balanced for the middle of the road... they still do insist they do. The only problem is the middle of the road is not easily determined, sometimes... One thing they did though when they opened up the enhancements come mod 4 was place a lot of stress on the system by reinforcing some classes into strict rolls while giving others more or less some versitility - the problem here is the max of some classes specialties are far over the mean the other classes can achieve in certain areas.

[Josh]

You have to drink mana pots in what quest? Part 4 and 5 of the raid are the only ones i have to dirnk mana pots in, sometime i dont even have to drink em, i just use heal scrolls constantly. I use maybe 200-300 heal scrolls per raid completion if we dont summon a Rest Shrine via cake

Lol

Am I the only one who can see the inherent information contained in this statement?