So whats the word on the Abbott raid?

[KiwiJoe]

Why is this raid STILL not 'fixed'?

With the lack of high end content I would of thought making the most out of whats already on the table would have been top priority.

IMO it was fine as it was 1st released (apart from the range exploit). A challenge, but doable with a good group. Currently I don't know of anyone that attempts to run it - there are certainly NEVER any LFM's up for it.

I'm down to running the Shroud (repeatedly) for large ingreds and Reaver runs. How about 'adjusting' the Abbott so people can actually run it with some sort of chance of success?

Thanks. :D

[Jack_No.7]

soem changes are coming, but most is not being changed atm
check WDA

[suitepotato]

At the very least, do up the undead in clown outfits and makeup to make the place less depressing.

[Pittminion]

Put back the ability to muscle through it without HAVING to do the 80s arcade.

[deathtouch]

Put back the ability to muscle through it without HAVING to do the 80s arcade.


Or at least have the music in the 80's game parts to Grandmaster Flash!

[Strykersz]

soem changes are coming, but most is not being changed atm
check WDA

You go ahead and post the changes that will have an impact on someone's ability to do the Abbot. The beginnings of a fix for the goggle bug, do not the Abbot beatable make.

[Angelus_dead]

Put back the ability to muscle through it without HAVING to do the 80s arcade.
Nope. If using skills similar to 80s arcade games were sufficient to win, even occasionally win, it would be fine. The problem is not with the minigames in concept, but the fact that their execution does not work.

* The ice challenge is fine (although the ice wands in the main room are not quite fine).

* The asteroid challenge should be easy for someone with my dexterity and ping, but since it's buggy it's not, and the only way someone can win is with exploits that bear no resembelance to arcade games.

* The chasm challenge, even if it worked right, would be nothing like any historic game. It's a new kind of challenge. And since it does not work right, and winning it means long periods of memorizing 15x4x15 tile changes hoping to find a path you can convey to the other player, that's nothing at all like the spirit of arcades.

Playing games based on arcade-level reaction times is perfectly possible with today's computers and internet. Turbine failed in their attempt, but that doesn't mean it was inherently impossible.

[Eladrin]

winning it means long periods of memorizing 15x4x15 tile changes hoping to find a path you can convey to the other player, that's nothing at all like the spirit of arcades.
That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.

[GeneralDiomedes]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.

*pulls out roll of quarters*

[Angelus_dead]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.
The method I described is the only technique that has been publicly reported to work by any player (aside from having both players in the same room). It's what those Japanese guys did, and it's something I've personally used to get across one chasm (not both).

I am afraid you're trying to say the easier way is for the runner to stand in place and have the guide tell him instructions such as "Up, Up, Left, Up, Up, Stop, Ok, Up, Up, Up, Right, Wait, Up, UP, RUN to the end". But that's a sad joke.

Comparing the speed of tile change to the latency of the chat just doesn't work out. The tiles last for 10 seconds each, it takes nearly 2 sec to run across one, and the total delay from the time the guide sees a change to the time the runner hears the guide report it is over 3 seconds.

Or maybe you mean the "mirror" technique, in which the runner strafes sideways looking at the guide, following his position. That is a somewhat faster way to communicate directions, but only works on one axis. And to use that method you first must intently study the pattern so you know which of the four columns to use (which is what I meant above)

Maybe if the players were using some kind of faster chat system outside of the game, they could have a response delay low enough for a verbal technique to work without arduous pre-planning.

If you devs are able to beat that chasm from your home PCs, the players would like to know it. (Bearing in mind that you're probably closer to the server than 95% of the customers)

PS. Smite sux

[Dimz]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.

I call shenanigans. I have spent hours on hours on hours in there. Do not say theres a easier way. Because, that my lovely dev is a LIE! I think this is a hoax so you can ninja something in a patch! :p

[Angelus_dead]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.
Another technique I've used is for the runner to guide himself, by throwing daggers ahead to test if the floor is there or not. It can work, but still relies on concentrated study by the guide to set him in a good starting position.

[Pellegro]

oh wouldnt it be sweet if the abbott raid was just like titan in that until you figure it out, its a PITA, but once you "get it", its routine? pedestrian? even easy???

here's to wishing.

[Angelus_dead]

oh wouldnt it be sweet if the abbott raid was just like titan in that until you figure it out, its a PITA, but once you "get it", its routine? pedestrian? even easy???
The titan is not like that, and was never like that.

[Pellegro]

The titan is not like that, and was never like that.


ORLY?

I'd say the titan and the reaver were like that. but I'm kinda a nub so ...

Regardless ... lets pretend it was ... and then pretend thats how the abbott is too. Ahh, to dream the impossible dream ...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.

Considering no one seems to be able to complete it by your "easier methods" either there are no easier methods or its time you gave a hint....

Your comment reminds me of a DM I had in jr high... he created an impossible trap and got mad when we didn't think up the most idiodic method of bypassing it that he thought up. I mean to think of his method you would have to know what the method was first and even then you'd think it was stupid.

[gpk]

Another technique I've used is for the runner to guide himself, by throwing daggers ahead to test if the floor is there or not. It can work, but still relies on concentrated study by the guide to set him in a good starting position.

And praying for a friendly pattern of tiles to popup. Too bad there's no lever to re-seed the randomized chasm pattern.

[noneou]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.


Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A? :D

(Well that worked for Contra anyway)

[Hendrik]

That's one way to do it.

There are much easier methods to get across the chasm.

There sure are.

Personally, I just line up my runner on the best straight-line run across, and go. No 'left', 'right', 'forward', 'back', voice lag excuses. Maybe a 'jump' or two is all.

The 'hard' part comes when the first runner needs to guide his/her partner across - due to lack of experience for that person.

[Strakeln]

Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A? :D

(Well that worked for Contra anyway)WHat, no select/start? :D

[Hendrik]

Considering no one seems to be able to complete it by your "easier methods" either there are no easier methods or its time you gave a hint....

Your comment reminds me of a DM I had in jr high... he created an impossible trap and got mad when we didn't think up the most idiodic method of bypassing it that he thought up. I mean to think of his method you would have to know what the method was first and even then you'd think it was stupid.

Well, except for the people that have completed it.

[Angelus_dead]

Personally, I just line up my runner on the best straight-line run across, and go. No 'left', 'right', 'forward', 'back', voice lag excuses. Maybe a 'jump' or two is all.
How do you know which is the best straight line crossing?

Remember that you are claiming you did NOT spend a long time studying the tile searching for an easy way to cross. So how do you know which is the easiest column, without taking time to look for it?

[Hendrik]

How do you know which is the best straight line crossing?

Remember that you are claiming you did NOT spend a long time studying the tile searching for an easy way to cross. So how do you know which is the easiest column, without taking time to look for it?

Where have I said such a thing?

[Angelus_dead]

Where have I said such a thing?
Pay attention?

First I said "The problem with chasm is that you must spend a long time studying the tiles to find the best path"
Then Eladrin said "No, there's easier ways"
Then you said "Yeah, I simply have the runner go straight"

So... how do you find the best path, but not spend time looking for it?

[sda3]

I dont know about that, but I still cant find a freakin right pincer.

[Aspenor]

From what I hear all you need is a rogue. :eek:

[Hendrik]

From what I hear all you need is a rogue. :eek:

Lol, Asp.

It's a Bard. All about the Bard....

;)

[BlueLightBandit]

So whats the word on the Abbott raid?

I'll give you a few to choose:

Sux0r

Br0ken

St00pid

Usel3ss

B000000ring

[Desteria]

So whats the word on the Abbott raid?

I'll give you a few to choose:

Sux0r

Br0ken

St00pid

Usel3ss

B000000ring



I'll take all 5 :)

I personaly dont see what was wrong with the first vertion short of the exploit option fix that part and it was tough but doable ... I seam to rember dev's sayign way back befor it released that the puzzles would be optional to make completion easyer with the state of those puzzles much liek how part 3 of shroud is would be best you get somethign for doign them ie the goggles/ice wand(wich i would never want to risk the whole raid onevenif i had it)/rocks.

/shrug time will tell i'm sure they are able to pull sever stats flr how often the raideven get attempted compred to other content, and if it is not getting use will make some change down the line to get value for the dev time spend building it.

[Bradik_Losdar]

/shrug time will tell i'm sure they are able to pull sever stats for how often the raid even get attempted compred to other content, and if it is not getting use will make some change down the line to get value for the dev time spend building it.

Haha! If they did they would only see the same 20 people (across all 5 servers mind you) trying it over and again. These are the same 20 people who come here and say "it just takes practice". LOL! - well when these people can say their 50+ hours of practice starts yeilding a CONSISTENT beat of the raid, then they will have a valid point (besides do the devs really think 99.99% of the player base have that kind of time to devote to a raid no one really enjoys running anyway???) Right now, even the so called experts only beat it if they get lucky - and that by definition means this raid is borked to high heaven.

[Yuhjn]

It really rubs me the wrong way that a Dev would come into this thread and say something cryptic like "there are easier ways".

The Abbot raid is garbage in it's current form, EVERYONE knows it aside from one or two fanbois, and we've been BEGGING the devs to fix it for months.

So what do the devs do? Do they fix it? Do they say they are going to fix it? NOPE. They just come in here and post somehting cryptic which is to me the equivelent of thumbing their noses at us.

No response at all would have been better than what we got in this thread.

Sometimes Devs can be very rude.

FIX THE ABBOT!

[Hendrik]

It really rubs me the wrong way that a Dev would come into this thread and say something cryptic like "there are easier ways".

The Abbot raid is garbage in it's current form, EVERYONE knows it aside from one or two fanbois, and we've been BEGGING the devs to fix it for months.

So what do the devs do? Do they fix it? Do they say they are going to fix it? NOPE. They just come in here and post somehting cryptic which is to me the equivelent of thumbing their noses at us.

No response at all would have been better than what we got in this thread.

Sometimes Devs can be very rude.

FIX THE ABBOT!

A lot less then the posting playerbase as it would seem.

[Eladrin]

Pay attention?

First I said "The problem with chasm is that you must spend a long time studying the tiles to find the best path"
Then Eladrin said "No, there's easier ways"
Then you said "Yeah, I simply have the runner go straight"

So... how do you find the best path, but not spend time looking for it?
I took "memorizing 15x4x15 tile changes hoping to find a path" to imply that you wanted to memorize a twisty path through the chasm room, hence my "there are easier ways" comment - a straight line run, guided by a "mirror" showing you how far to get, and using returning throwing weapons to "safety check" tiles ahead of you are how I'd do it.

It is wise for the mirror to watch the tile cycle a little bit to see which column is easiest, but I didn't say that I expected you to charge blindly into the abyss - just that you don't need to memorize the entire path to identify a viable one.

Currently on normal difficulty, roughly 2/3 of the tiles are "up" at any time. That will become the "hard" difficulty in M7, with "normal" changing to 80% up at any time.

[Ustice]

Strategy, FTW. :)

So, El, any word on the asteroids? I think that they come in a little fast (especially with lag/latency, and targeting issues), but maybe I am missing something.

[Dimz]

Currently on normal difficulty, roughly 2/3 of the tiles are "up" at any time. That will become the "hard" difficulty in M7, with "normal" changing to 80% up at any time.


This makes me very happy to hear. Why not sooner though? Like a Patch?

[Yuhjn]

That will become the "hard" difficulty in M7, with "normal" changing to 80% up at any time.


THANK YOU!

This tells us that there are modifications going into M7 for the Abbot. That's exactly what we need, and what we needed to hear.

Thank you Eladrin.

[Eladrin]

So, El, any word on the asteroids? I think that they come in a little fast (especially with lag/latency, and targeting issues), but maybe I am missing something.
There are some issues with too many simultaneous asteroids being triggered that I'm looking to clear up as well.

[Yuhjn]

This makes me very happy to hear. Why not sooner though? Like a Patch?

They only hotfix for gamebreaking bugs and exploits. "Tuning", which is what they would call this, is done during major updates only.

There are many reasons for this, but the main one is time required to do a hotfix. You have your whole pipeline involved for one single game change, which is a major waste. It's like doing a load of laundry with only 1 pair of socks in it.


*EDIT* Personally I can be patient for M7. I'm not worried about getting the Abbot fixed so I can run it tonight. (although that would be great). I'm happy the developers are listening to and acting on our feedback.

Things take time, which is fine, as long as thing get done about it when major quests are broken.

[moorewr]

Moments ago I e-mailed my Abbot questions off to "Ask the Devs" and poof! Here are the answers. You guys are good.

:rolleyes:

[Yuhjn]

Ok so the bridges are going to be improved, and the asteroids are going to be improved... that leave one outstanding issue.



Is anything being done about the Goggle bug?

[jakeelala]

There are some issues with too many simultaneous asteroids being triggered that I'm looking to clear up as well.

You're awesome. I was out of the game for a few months when this was compelteable by exploiting. I'm really looking forward to getting to run it for the first time

[gpk]

There are some issues with too many simultaneous asteroids being triggered that I'm looking to clear up as well.

How about projectile deflection caused by other player an/or other asteroids? Are those issues going to be factored into the equation as well?

[Yuhjn]

You're awesome. I was out of the game for a few months when this was compelteable by exploiting. I'm really looking forward to getting to run it for the first time


Yeah I agree. It always makes me happy when the devs listen to us and do the right thing :) Sometimes it takes awhile, and sometimes we have to scream really loudly, and sometimes we even have to get a little bit mean about it.... but they usually come around at some point and help us out.

Just this week I've seen the devs do 2 major backpedals and fix things we really need fixed:

Abbot raid
More Hotbars

These were 2 major issues that were draining on the game's playability and enjoyment factor (a major raid that no one plays is very depressing, even though there is a lot of other good content that people run). Both were issues the devs apparently didnt think were important. But we kept creating threads and kept complaining and explaining why it needed fixed. And lo-and-behold, the devs have responded.

Mod7 is going to be epic... Monks running the Abbot (with more than 10 hotbars)... sweet!

[gpk]

I took "memorizing 15x4x15 tile changes hoping to find a path" to imply that you wanted to memorize a twisty path through the chasm room, hence my "there are easier ways" comment - a straight line run, guided by a "mirror" showing you how far to get, and using returning throwing weapons to "safety check" tiles ahead of you are how I'd do it.

It is wise for the mirror to watch the tile cycle a little bit to see which column is easiest, but I didn't say that I expected you to charge blindly into the abyss - just that you don't need to memorize the entire path to identify a viable one.

Currently on normal difficulty, roughly 2/3 of the tiles are "up" at any time. That will become the "hard" difficulty in M7, with "normal" changing to 80% up at any time.

Many of us are already familiar with the mirror method and using returners and it's hasnt been very helpful, it's nice that more tiles are going to be on at any given time.
My questions though:

-Is having more lit tiles on at one time enough to compensate for the visual delay/lag between spotter and runner?
-Why change the number of tiles lit on hard and elite?
-What about the draw distance when runner is on 3rd and 4th column parallel to the spotter?

Maybe a lever that can re-randomize the tile pattern or shift the columns closer to the spotter can be added?

[Gadget2775]

This makes me very happy to hear. Why not sooner though? Like a Patch?

It's incredibly easy for new code to have unintended effects. To hot-fix they have to make sure the code plays nicely with everything that's currently in play...Doesn't sound like to big a deal, except that after the hot fix they have to go back through all of the code again to make sure that it doesn't break/isn't broken by the code being added for the next big mod or patch. It's consumes less resources (IE Time) to validate everything in one big push than in does to add individual line items.

It's very much the butterfly effect...Hard to predict what affect one tiny action will have. Did you turn left? Bummer, cause that's where the car jacker is. :mad: How bout turning around? Wow, didn't expect to get hit by a falling building. :eek: I know we'll go forward! NOOOO! A busted gas main exploded. :( What if we don't go anywhere? Crud, lost our job cause we missed work.

It isn't always that nasty, but I was aiming for dramatic effect :D

[oronisi]

I think what the invisible tile puzzle really needs are visible tiles or guidelines for the runner. Make ALL tiles visible for the runner or something. It's hard to know how far you should run or where you should stop if you are told to stop. If the runner can see the frame of the floor puzzle, he/she will know where to stop if told 'move 2'. That would help immensely.

And while we have you here devs (hopefully), I think the asteroids puzzle needs some sort of visual queue so that the 2 throwers can split the work in half. You know, you take left, I'll take right. Except there are no visual clues to help you do that. Small pillars on the north and south ends of the platform would work. Then just restrict the asteroids from coming in at all angles so the throwers don't have to constantly spin around looking in every direction of a 3D space.

Easy fixes, then people will only have bugs with the ice wands to complain about.

[Hendrik]

I took "memorizing 15x4x15 tile changes hoping to find a path" to imply that you wanted to memorize a twisty path through the chasm room, hence my "there are easier ways" comment - a straight line run, guided by a "mirror" showing you how far to get, and using returning throwing weapons to "safety check" tiles ahead of you are how I'd do it.

It is wise for the mirror to watch the tile cycle a little bit to see which column is easiest, but I didn't say that I expected you to charge blindly into the abyss - just that you don't need to memorize the entire path to identify a viable one.

Currently on normal difficulty, roughly 2/3 of the tiles are "up" at any time. That will become the "hard" difficulty in M7, with "normal" changing to 80% up at any time.

Thinking outside the box FTW!

;)

[gpk]

Thinking outside the box FTW!

;)

LMAO are you joking? We already knew the mirroring spotter and returning weapon tricks.

[Ustice]

Eladrin,

That's GREAT to hear! Thanks a lot! I would also suggest some extra charges on the ice ball wand on normal. We can do it as is, but that would help some people who don't have a good jump skill.

[KiwiJoe]

woot! maybe the price of greater undead bane weapons will climb again...

[Dimz]

LMAO are you joking? We already knew the mirroring spotter and returning weapon tricks.

We did?! I just went in there, jumped off and called it a day, and started complaining on the forums about it saying it was too hard.. Go figure you have to be guided! DOH.

[Angelus_dead]

I think what the invisible tile puzzle really needs are visible tiles or guidelines for the runner. Make ALL tiles visible for the runner or something. It's hard to know how far you should run or where you should stop if you are told to stop. If the runner can see the frame of the floor puzzle, he/she will know where to stop if told 'move 2'. That would help immensely.
Yes, that would be a good change. It's something that was suggested by players within a week of Module 5's release.

That information is important because as-is, there are two pieces of data the runner is missing:
1. Which tiles are on or off
2. Where the boundaries between the tiles are

It takes the combination of those data to tell how far you should run. With the inconsistent latency of DDO's chat, it is somewhat reasonable to ask the guide to provide one of those data streams- but not both. With luck, a typical guide player can keep the runner informed on which tile to move to next, but he can't do that and tell him how close he is to the edges of the tile he's already on.

The within-tile position would be much harder to communicate, since it is measured in smaller units, so latency dominates the accuracy of the message.

Side note: For anyone with technical knowledge of computer networking, ask yourself why ethernet needs to use NRZ. A very applicable analogy!

[query]

Gadget, I suggest moving out of that city. It's just too dangerous with all those criminal carjacking building exploding, gas main blowing traffic jam causing people in your city.


Then somehow with the entire local Millitary following them, they duck into ONE garage and vanish.


And the horrible rise in women assulted for money...it's just tragic. Not even the mayor and the entire city council who have been seen driving these nice women around have any idea how they always seem to have so much money on them....and all of the official's cars seem to have poor shocks with those cars bouncing up and down every time they stop.


It's incredibly easy for new code to have unintended effects. To hot-fix they have to make sure the code plays nicely with everything that's currently in play...Doesn't sound like to big a deal, except that after the hot fix they have to go back through all of the code again to make sure that it doesn't break/isn't broken by the code being added for the next big mod or patch. It's consumes less resources (IE Time) to validate everything in one big push than in does to add individual line items.

It's very much the butterfly effect...Hard to predict what affect one tiny action will have. Did you turn left? Bummer, cause that's where the car jacker is. :mad: How bout turning around? Wow, didn't expect to get hit by a falling building. :eek: I know we'll go forward! NOOOO! A busted gas main exploded. :( What if we don't go anywhere? Crud, lost our job cause we missed work.

It isn't always that nasty, but I was aiming for dramatic effect :D

[Angelus_dead]

There are some issues with too many simultaneous asteroids being triggered that I'm looking to clear up as well.
What about the issue where cast/thrown trajectories don't go where you are aiming, and instead modify that direction based on obstructions in the world? (Not just terrain, but characters and asteroids)

It's well illustrated in this jpg, although the web host was down earlier today
http://imageduck.com/v/headdeflect.jpg

[Knightrose]

I got no issues with the Abbot.

I got issues with the players who think the Abbot is broken.

It's the only interesting challenge left in the game and so many are only focused on turning it into pre-school so they can wiz through it.

Lame.

[Mhykke]

I got no issues with the Abbot.

I got issues with the players who think the Abbot is broken.

It's the only interesting challenge left in the game and so many are only focused on turning it into pre-school so they can wiz through it.

Lame.

Lol. The abbot is broken.

Quests should have something to do with, oh I don't know, the characters that you're playing maybe? It doesn't matter if our characters are lvl 16 or lvl 1000, they would still be facing the same issues with this raid. This means it has nothing to do with our actual characters in the game, not their gear, not their hit points, not their sp, not their feats nor enhancements, etc.


You don't think that's a minor flaw in quest design?

Edit: And if you're looking for a challenge in the game, go beat the shroud on elite without consuming a single resource (no heal scrolls or mana pots.) Perfect a strategy so you don't simply throw plat at the quest to complete. Be so good at it that clerics only need mana bars to beat part 5 on elite w/o bugs. I'm sure all the clerics out there on your server would find that an interesting and worthwhile challenge.

[Angelus_dead]

I got issues with the players who think the Abbot is broken.

It's the only interesting challenge left in the game and so many are only focused on turning it into pre-school so they can wiz through it.
It's an interesting challenge! Yes, good to hear!

Tell us, what makes it interesting??

[Mhykke]

Tell us, what makes it interesting??

Trying to find a group that's actually willing to run it.

[Draiden]

soem changes are coming, but most is not being changed atm
check WDA

Yeah, you have to give these things time. There is not doubt in my mind that the developers understand the fatal flaws in this raid... finally, after all the threads and lack of instance play time. They are trying to make adjustments for these mistakes, and they may need to overhaul it completely- back to the designing board, so to speak.

Be patient. Nobody likes their hard work being ignored. It'll get fixed.

[Knightrose]

No, I completely disagree with most of you.

I define a challenge as something that requires me to have some skill as a player. When the task relies on what my class can do, and not what I can do, then we enter World of Warcraft mode. And that is extremely un-interesting and boring to me.

D&D is about ingenuity and being rewarded for it. Not requiring a certain type of healer or a certain type of Barbarian. That's class specific.

The Abbot is the only thing left in DDO that requires some mastery to accomplish. I like knowing theres at least one quest that only those I play best with are able to accomplish. It is rewarding and interesting to have a challenge completable by few but fully mastered.

Most of you likely want the Abbot to become another Reaver. I think that's lame. The Abbot is actually a very short raid.

[Torosar]

No, I completely disagree with most of you.

I define a challenge as something that requires me to have some skill as a player. When the task relies on what my class can do, and not what I can do, then we enter World of Warcraft mode. And that is extremely un-interesting and boring to me.

D&D is about ingenuity and being rewarded for it. Not requiring a certain type of healer or a certain type of Barbarian. That's class specific.

The Abbot is the only thing left in DDO that requires some mastery to accomplish. I like knowing theres at least one quest that only those I play best with are able to accomplish. It is rewarding and interesting to have a challenge completable by few but fully mastered.

Most of you likely want the Abbot to become another Reaver. I think that's lame. The Abbot is actually a very short raid.

That's why the Elite difficulty has been unchanged and will likely remain unchanged. If changes are made to this raid and normal mode becomes completeable and you don't like that and prefer it how it is now, okay.. you can run it on elite mode and have fun there.

No one wants the Abbot to be like the Reaver, notice the only complaints/ concerns / suggestions focus around the puzzles. Apart from the ice puzzle, the other 2 puzzles are not completable (well, unless you get immense crazy luck in 1 of them, and use an exploit in the other).. and people want that fixed. There is a difference between something being hard to do, and something being just about impossible.

[Hendrik]

So...

Any bets on how long the whining will start after the changes that Hard/Elite is to hard?

;)

Not long is my bet. Heck, I fully expect complaints that is still to hard after the changes.

Let the rush begin to complete the pre-nerf carebear Abbott!

Again.

:cool:

[Knightrose]

That's why the Elite difficulty has been unchanged and will likely remain unchanged. If changes are made to this raid and normal mode becomes completeable and you don't like that and prefer it how it is now, okay.. you can run it on elite mode and have fun there.

No one wants the Abbot to be like the Reaver, notice the only complaints/ concerns / suggestions focus around the puzzles. Apart from the ice puzzle, the other 2 puzzles are not completable (well, unless you get immense crazy luck in 1 of them, and use an exploit in the other).. and people want that fixed. There is a difference between something being hard to do, and something being just about impossible.


I've completed all three puzzles more then once. Want to know what tool I used?

Voice chat

Obviously, I wasn't alone when I completed them.

[gpk]

So...

Any bets on how long the whining will start after the changes that Hard/Elite is to hard?

;)

Not long is my bet. Heck, I fully expect complaints that is still to hard after the changes.

Let the rush begin to complete the pre-nerf carebear Abbott!

Again.

:cool:


Don't worry I'm sure the next time theres a raid that's clearly broken you will come and remind us that all we need is more practice and less "whining".
After all the Titan raid was never patched, all it took was more practice, right?

But you raise an valid point, the changes to the puzzles should be looked at logn and hard on ALL difficulties.

[gpk]

I've completed all three puzzles more then once. Want to know what tool I used?

Voice chat

Obviously, I wasn't alone when I completed them.

Care to elaborate?

[Mhykke]

Yep, who needs another raid like the reaver?

I mean, a popular raid, w/ a successful mod, that everyone likes to run, parties are formed easily, and good times are had.

Hopefully, we'll get lucky, and all the raids from here on out will not be run by 99.9% of the population, like the abbot now, people get turned off, nobody will care to run the prereqs, and only that .1% is left. DDO will truly be great then. Sure, there may only be 50 players left in the game, but at least they'll be able to say there's true challenge left in an MMO. :rolleyes:

[Pellegro]

Yep, who needs another raid like the reaver?

I mean, a popular raid, w/ a successful mod, that everyone likes to run, parties are formed easily, and good times are had.

Hopefully, we'll get lucky, and all the raids from here on out will not be run by 99.9% of the population, like the abbot now, people get turned off, nobody will care to run the prereqs, and only that .1% is left. DDO will truly be great then. Sure, there may only be 50 players left in the game, but at least they'll be able to say there's true challenge left in an MMO. :rolleyes:

This is a very good point and underscores that what players want are loot runs where 3 or 4 people do all the work adn everyone else stands around.

I say give the people what they want. Please, more Reaver raids.

[maddmatt70]

Yep, who needs another raid like the reaver?

I mean, a popular raid, w/ a successful mod, that everyone likes to run, parties are formed easily, and good times are had.

Hopefully, we'll get lucky, and all the raids from here on out will not be run by 99.9% of the population, like the abbot now, people get turned off, nobody will care to run the prereqs, and only that .1% is left. DDO will truly be great then. Sure, there may only be 50 players left in the game, but at least they'll be able to say there's true challenge left in an MMO. :rolleyes:

The reaver is so boring it is like pulling teeth.

[Mhykke]

This is a very good point and underscores that what players want are loot runs where 3 or 4 people do all the work


I wouldn't be so sure about this, considering the shroud is very popular, and there's not much standing around in this raid by anyone. It' popular, very challenging on elite (especially if you're trying to minimize resources).

[Angelus_dead]

The reaver is so boring it is like pulling teeth.
The reaver is exciting if you do it with 1-3 people. That's why the new raid loot system was such a bad change- it removed the loot incentive to use a small group where everyone has a function, and instead rewards us for packing the group to the maximum size possible, just to have more pulls from the chest.

A simple fix Reaver's Fate would be to unraid it, so that the number of people who absolutely have no need to even move is reduced from 8 to 2.

[Angelus_dead]

I've completed all three puzzles more then once. Want to know what tool I used?
Voice chat
Obviously, I wasn't alone when I completed them.
Where's the screenshot? More to the point, where's the screenshot of your group decked out in Silver Flame armor?

PS. That bit about using "voice chat" as your tool? You did not beat asteroids with chat.

PPS. Even if it were true that "voice chat" let you win, that is an unacceptable limitation on player capabilities.

[Mhykke]

The reaver is so boring it is like pulling teeth.

Was talking about the actual groups you do it with. It's fine to get a regular group to go in there, knock it out, switching characters, doing it again, bs'ing the whole time (maybe throwing some firewalls, hypnotic spheres, and incendiary clouds on the puzzle doer, to really **** him off :D).

It's popular and accessable. It doesn't mean that all raids should follow the exact same formula. The shroud is another example. Raids like these keep players interested. You can't have raids like the abbot and expect players to stick around. Barely anyone runs the abbot. I can't remember the last time I saw an LFM for the abbot. And yes, a few of us get together every once in a while talking about going back in there...but it never materializes. It's a terrible raid, I guess a fitting ending to a terrible series of quests.


The devs have noted how dead the abbot is and are changing it. I'm guessing these aren't going to be the last changes we'll see to that raid.

[Torosar]

I've completed all three puzzles more then once. Want to know what tool I used?

Voice chat

Obviously, I wasn't alone when I completed them.

You don't need voice chat at all to win the puzzles really. Ice puzzle all you need to do is determine who goes first which can be typed. Tile puzzle you need to determine where the person starts from along the platform (can be typed) and then if you do it the Japanese way (which is most successful known method, though others may work), all they need to do is stay in line with the other player. Asteroid puzzle doesn't require any voice at all, i mean assuming you are beating it legitimately its not like you need to say "Oh look out behind you, an asteroid! I'll get it!" Though i doubt the other methods require much voice either.

Both the first ever ice puzzle and tile puzzle wins (before any puzzle was ever changed) were completed by people with no voice chat, and those people involved in those wins are posters in this thread.

Beat all 3 puzzles? So do you want to publically share with us how it is you beat asteroid puzzle? Or might the forum moderators frown upon that?

[Knightrose]

Yeah dont take voice chat out of context here. i simply use voice to explain the tests. not to guide the others through them.

[Torosar]

Well you shouldn't try totally dismissing my post by going and saying you've beaten all 3 puzzles when you know that the method you are using to beat 1 of those puzzles isn't something you'd talk about on the forums and that voice chat is all you use to beat them.

Players can beat the Tile puzzle (albeit rarely), as you have.. i have beaten it more than once myself. The thing is, it's not a reasonable challenge as it is now for so many reasons listed countless times i'm not discussing it at any length here. Look at the ice puzzle, you can beat that like at least 75% of the time right? Compare that to your percentage winning the tile puzzle and that's what the problem is. Surely if you have run it enough you would agree. I am very curious to see how Eladrins change will affect the puzzle.

[nakedfatguy]

Yep, the puzzles are beatable, but not consitently. Its not because of a lack of skill either. it takes one tiny lag spike and you fail the quest. The whole raid is over because of one tiny thing thats out of your control. Asteroids are comming at you, you aim and fire, next thing you know your nocked off. there were no asteroids anywhere around you a second ago, but that one second spike and your done. Same with the other puzzles. You basically have to have all the planets aligned perfectly to complete the quest. No mistakes, no lag, having everything go perfect. So i guess technically it is possible.
But is it fun? Is it fun having the whole raid need to go perfectly. even things beyond your control? Not in my book it isnt. just boils down to luck of the draw and that aint no fun, just frustrating.

[maddmatt70]

Was talking about the actual groups you do it with. It's fine to get a regular group to go in there, knock it out, switching characters, doing it again, bs'ing the whole time (maybe throwing some firewalls, hypnotic spheres, and incendiary clouds on the puzzle doer, to really **** him off :D).

It's popular and accessable. It doesn't mean that all raids should follow the exact same formula. The shroud is another example. Raids like these keep players interested. You can't have raids like the abbot and expect players to stick around. Barely anyone runs the abbot. I can't remember the last time I saw an LFM for the abbot. And yes, a few of us get together every once in a while talking about going back in there...but it never materializes. It's a terrible raid, I guess a fitting ending to a terrible series of quests.


The devs have noted how dead the abbot is and are changing it. I'm guessing these aren't going to be the last changes we'll see to that raid.

I actually liked alot of the orchard quests. The orchard quests are not rainbow in the dark level which in my mind is a masterpiece - thanks for the good work devs on that quest, but still enjoyable. About the Abbot Raid I dislike the fast twitch puzzles in general which makes what I say somewhat biased, but I will tell you beating down the abbot in the old days before the puzzles were mandatory was a great challenge and alot of fun for me. I just don't enjoy the journey - when a quest is like boring excruciating work then its officially not worth it. The shroud is simply the best raid ever put out by ddo - it could be improved of course, but it is still really fun. The reaver's popularity is in large part due to two factors: 1. it takes 15-20 minutes of time and 2: it has +3 tomes and other relevant loot. It has no challenge even when it used to be 3-4 manned back in the days when the cap was level 14 - now its afk central especially for those who are not the lead tank/cleric/arcanes...

[oronisi]

No, I completely disagree with most of you.

I define a challenge as something that requires me to have some skill as a player. When the task relies on what my class can do, and not what I can do, then we enter World of Warcraft mode. And that is extremely un-interesting and boring to me.

D&D is about ingenuity and being rewarded for it. Not requiring a certain type of healer or a certain type of Barbarian. That's class specific.

The Abbot is the only thing left in DDO that requires some mastery to accomplish. I like knowing theres at least one quest that only those I play best with are able to accomplish. It is rewarding and interesting to have a challenge completable by few but fully mastered.

Most of you likely want the Abbot to become another Reaver. I think that's lame. The Abbot is actually a very short raid.

What D&D campaign has you doing the same puzzles and battle over and over again, failing every time until you master it? Is there some sort of 'Groundhog's Day' D&D campaign I'm unaware of?

Really, DDO is not D&D. D&D rewards ingenuity, but DDO does not. DDO constantly has ingenuity patched up to not be possible because it offers a shortcut that was either not intended or shortens the quest too much.

I don't know a single person that has asked for the Abbot to be altered on hard. People just want usable content. As it is, the Abbot raid was a waste of over hundreds of man hours that could have been used to create playable quests. I'm glad you and 6 other people enjoy it (though I doubt you even do that quest regularly as I've only heard of 2 different groups beating this quest once), but MMO developers don't develop content for 7 people, they develop content for thousands. And I won't even get into the effort/reward part of it....If you want the Abbot to remain as-is, it is still a broken quest. You would need to put in items that are so powerful people come in and run that quest despite it's horrible state.

[moorewr]

This is a very good point and underscores that what players want are loot runs where 3 or 4 people do all the work adn everyone else stands around.

I say give the people what they want. Please, more Reaver raids.

The Reaver *IS* boring. A couple players DO do all the work. When I run my tank I hang around in hopes of getting flying practice.

It's also the one thing a guild can get together and do when people don't have a lot of time.. I'd love to see more quests or raids that could be done in the time it takes to organize and run the Reaver..

I guess the first part of the Shroud sort of fits the bill. Everyone has to work, true, and there's the crafting altar, and you're done it a reasonable amount of time... and no one is making you keep going.. our Guild is getting into the habit of running parts 1-3 on Normal or Hard when we don't try for completion, but even that will eat up all the time I have on a work night.

So yes! Short high-level quests. A flag-once, 30 minute raid, but one where everyone has to think or fight. More reavers.

.

[bobbryan2]

Thinking outside the box FTW!

;)

Considering the playerbase mentioned all those things before a dev posted them...

Reading the thread FTW!

;)

[Angelus_dead]

What D&D campaign has you doing the same puzzles and battle over and over again, failing every time until you master it? Is there some sort of 'Groundhog's Day' D&D campaign I'm unaware of?
Tee hee, there's Tomb of Horrors. Its exactly like you said, really. Beating that puzzle-dungeon on your first try is so unlikely, the metric for victory is to minimize the number of new characters you roll to get through.

[Hendrik]

Considering the playerbase mentioned all those things before a dev posted them...

Reading the thread FTW!

;)

Care to share those posts?

And it only has been a small handful of players sharing tactics or information concerning the Abbott. Even those people have stopped due to the fact they have been accused of cheating, exploiting, or whatnot because they have done what most consider 'impossible'. Even after screenshots they accusations still fly. No wonder people do not care to share when met with such BS.

The lowest common denominator Abbott will be here soon enough and the complaints of that being to hard can begin.

:cool:

[bobbryan2]

Care to share those posts?

And it only has been a small handful of players sharing tactics or information concerning the Abbott. Even those people have stopped due to the fact they have been accused of cheating, exploiting, or whatnot because they have done what most consider 'impossible'. Even after screenshots they accusations still fly. No wonder people do not care to share when met with such BS.

The lowest common denominator Abbott will be here soon enough and the complaints of that being to hard can begin.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1626928&postcount=10

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1626942&postcount=12

How about all 3 of those techniques earlier in this thread. Most people that are complaining already know a lot of tactics, it doesn't change the fact that the raid is broken.

[gpk]

Care to share those posts?

And it only has been a small handful of players sharing tactics or information concerning the Abbott. Even those people have stopped due to the fact they have been accused of cheating, exploiting, or whatnot because they have done what most consider 'impossible'. Even after screenshots they accusations still fly.

I call BS on your statement, when people are pressed for details and answers they pretend to get all offended and "zomg you guys are mean I'm leaving".

Look at this thread, just recently someone came in with the same type of "I beat it post" but when pressed for details all we hear are crickets chirping, kinda hard not to draw conclusions from that silence after a while.

Can you please link us to the screenshots and detailed posts of legit sustainable "wins" for chasm and asteroids? I'm sure a little summary would do this thread good.

[query]

my main FINALLY gets a full sigil, wow.


Now I bet util the update I got bupkis for the pre raid runs let alone somebody actually pugging for the raid proper?

At least I finally got those boots of the innocent.


I don't even want to go into details about the total number of base orchard runs I did yet only have sheild peices 1 and 2.

The AH and the plat laundering like prices around 500K per peice is not an option.

[Cordelia]

Fix the Abott? Heck no, remove the Abott.

This quest combines all the lessons learned by developers on what not to do when designing quests. Referring to the 3 arduous, meaningless, random tasks as "puzzles" is an insult to puzzles everywhere. Puzzles imply a level of thought, of deduction. Not random chance. They cant be "solved" in any way, shape or form. Sure, you can get past them, but it has nothing to do with your brain, or even your character abilities.

This quest is a stain on this game that I'm sure everyone involved with the design would love to forget. If Turbine had any sense, they would remove this raid from the game entirely. Perhaps replace it with a standard "fight" with the Abott, with inflated HP and 3 times as many fodder mobs. Why they do not can only be compared to a childish sense of pride and stubbornness on the part of someone at the end of a boardroom table somewhere. Big on em, I suppose.

Any attempt to 'fix' this raid in it's current form is pointless, and can be compared to the makeup artists' job at a funeral home. If anything positive comes from this dark chapter in DDO's history, It's the lesson learned by turbine in how NOT to design a raid.

Cord

PS. Stop calling them "puzzles"!

[Jondallar]

Fix the Abott? Heck no, remove the Abott.

This quest combines all the lessons learned by developers on what not to do when designing quests. Referring to the 3 arduous, meaningless, random tasks as "puzzles" is an insult to puzzles everywhere. Puzzles imply a level of thought, of deduction. Not random chance. They cant be "solved" in any way, shape or form. Sure, you can get past them, but it has nothing to do with your brain, or even your character abilities.

This quest is a stain on this game that I'm sure everyone involved with the design would love to forget. If Turbine had any sense, they would remove this raid from the game entirely. Perhaps replace it with a standard "fight" with the Abott, with inflated HP and 3 times as many fodder mobs. Why they do not can only be compared to a childish sense of pride and stubbornness on the part of someone at the end of a boardroom table somewhere. Big on em, I suppose.

Any attempt to 'fix' this raid in it's current form is pointless, and can be compared to the makeup artists' job at a funeral home. If anything positive comes from this dark chapter in DDO's history, It's the lesson learned by turbine in how NOT to design a raid.

Cord

PS. Stop calling them "puzzles"!
QFT

[Luthen]

I took "memorizing 15x4x15 tile changes hoping to find a path" to imply that you wanted to memorize a twisty path through the chasm room, hence my "there are easier ways" comment - a straight line run, guided by a "mirror" showing you how far to get, and using returning throwing weapons to "safety check" tiles ahead of you are how I'd do it.

It is wise for the mirror to watch the tile cycle a little bit to see which column is easiest, but I didn't say that I expected you to charge blindly into the abyss - just that you don't need to memorize the entire path to identify a viable one.

Currently on normal difficulty, roughly 2/3 of the tiles are "up" at any time. That will become the "hard" difficulty in M7, with "normal" changing to 80% up at any time.

Any chance that this will get some serious REAL player testing before you guys send yet ANOTHER poorly designed system live again?!?!

Please excuse my frustrated tone here but we're talking 2 mods after release of a raid before it can be run consistantly by most groups/guilds? Most folks I know learn from mistakes and try their best not to repeat them. Now you may claim you guys are doing that but your actions, or lack there of, contradict such a claim. I really want to run the Abbot weekly but the risk vs reward of this raid is so pitiful it isn't worth it, as it currently is, when much better items can be earned, customized and built in the Shroud (Awsome work there BTW guys).

[jkm]

eladrin, it isn't that 66% are up or 80% are up at any one time its the pure luck of having them up at the right time. dimz and i must have run those tile 50 times. i can count on one hand the number of times that we had a puzzle that didn't involve some kind of quick twitch jumping or shifting in mid air to another tile that you can't see. the one time we thought we had it, i jumped and got rubber band pulled to my death even though the stupid tile was solid.

when i think about this raid, i keep going back to one of your earliest statements - don't die. yet, you designed a raid with no savings throw death EVERYWHERE. no one is going to run this raid without a major redesign because its going to cost them 10's of thousands of plat a run. there is also no ability to use any strategy on party makeup because of randomly getting teleported to puzzle rooms. what players in general want is control over how to make decisions and this random teleport business annoys people to no end (just like in the shroud).

goggles puzzle - make this a static maze, add 4 more rows to it. on normal, there is a solid path through it. on hard, it requires a jump or 2. on elite, a series of jumps. instead of a 1% or less success rate, you'll be looking at 40%, 20%, 10%. still hard as ****, but at least the playerbase knows there is a solution.

asteroids, why can't you toss them into a den of mummies or wheeps or flesh golems or cinderspawns or something that goes along with the theme of the preraid? i seriously do not remember asteroids anywhere out in the necropolis.

the ice balls - meh, i think the wand recharge times need to be lowered because of the shot to the ceiling issues, but this one is at a 60% success rate.

[juniorpfactors]

send the goggle guy with the blind helen keller guy....and maybe I will waist my time on the raid...sticking goggle boy on the other side of the chasm is just a pain in the butt....heck 80% of the player base probably still cant follow the goggle boy if he was in the chasm room with helen keller boy..... so seems logical and i am sure plenty of failure would still occur

jr

[Venar]

Venar's secret cheesy way to beat asteroids finally revealed:

1. Upon porting, cast quickly 3 scrolls of create undead. Pick Ghouls to get a total of 9 undeads. Most be scrolls, they currently dont have a timer (unlike the spell).
2. Stand in the middle. Use break enchantement to free them all at once.
3. Block
4. You are stuck in the middle of mobs and cant be knocked off.
5. Have a nice day.

[Aspenor]

Why free them?

And btw, doesn't sound "cheesy" to me. Sounds like thinking outside the box. Ftw.

[Hendrik]

Venar's secret cheesy way to beat asteroids finally revealed:

1. Upon porting, cast quickly 3 scrolls of create undead. Pick Ghouls to get a total of 9 undeads. Most be scrolls, they currently dont have a timer (unlike the spell).
2. Stand in the middle. Use break enchantement to free them all at once.
3. Block
4. You are stuck in the middle of mobs and cant be knocked off.
5. Have a nice day.

Thats putting the ole grey matter to use!

[Aeneas]

Ummm, wow? Nice thinking venar. If only you could also summon an earth ele to earth grab you and lock you into place ;).

[bobbryan2]

Why free them?

And btw, doesn't sound "cheesy" to me. Sounds like thinking outside the box. Ftw.

Since you can go through party members, apparantly asteroids can. But hostile targets server as a barrier between you and asteroids.

[Aspenor]

Since you can go through party members, apparantly asteroids can. But hostile targets server as a barrier between you and asteroids.

Well this is a bit silly. If asteroids can hit ME, then why can't they hit the monsters on my team?? Stupid....

[moorewr]

Well this is a bit silly. If asteroids can hit ME, then why can't they hit the monsters on my team?? Stupid....

They are hitting the monsters.. who you have freed and turned into enemies...

[Aspenor]

They are hitting the monsters.. who you have freed and turned into enemies...

I know but you missed the point!!! They should hit the monsters while they're still on my team....

Physics....you know...lol

[moorewr]

I know but you missed the point!!! They should hit the monsters while they're still on my team....

Physics....you know...lol

Heh. Total agreement. I misread your post to express that you+ghouls ought to be swept away by the asteroids... I fail at Internets. :)

Now, randomly getting a caster with cr. undead scrolls into the right puzzle? That's not physics anymore, that's statistics.

[Aspenor]

Heh. Total agreement. I misread your post to express that you+ghouls ought to be swept away by the asteroids... I fail at Internets. :)

Now, randomly getting a caster with cr. undead scrolls into the right puzzle? That's not physics anymore, that's statistics.

UMD ftw??

Everybody knows if your barbarian doesnt have AT LEAST a 25 UMD you're gimped!!! :p

[Venar]

The point is not to avoid the asteroid. It is the fact that you wont be pushed off because the mobs will, if you want, shield wall YOU. And yes, you can put an earth elemental, or any other mobs. Anything you summon can be freed with a simple Dispel Magic wand.

[bobbryan2]

The point is not to avoid the asteroid. It is the fact that you wont be pushed off because the mobs will, if you want, shield wall YOU. And yes, you can put an earth elemental, or any other mobs. Anything you summon can be freed with a simple Dispel Magic wand.

Which I found out last night isn't true. Apparantly celestial dogs don't uncharm. Dunno if that's a bug or if it's due to their celestial nature (and the fact they wouldn't necessarily attack us if they were dispelled.)

Just food for thought.

[Venar]

Just tested on a troll. It works.

[ghale]

What is the word on the abbott raid?


.
.
.
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Lame

[Strakeln]

What is the word on the abbott raid?


.
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LameIsn't this the third "almost a year since the last post" thread that you've resurrected today? This is all outdated news.

[Deuce]

Holy Necro, Batman...

[Angelus_dead]

Isn't this the third "almost a year since the last post" thread that you've resurrected today? This is all outdated news.
Yes, it is. So what?

Tolero invited players to bump threads that they'd like to survive the deletion. Maybe he wants to look back on it someday after the Abbot raid is changed.