Shroud Misunderstanding

[Sanadil]

I didn't want to derail the guild list thread anymore than it already has been, so I'll start up a new on here:


Well I am not accustom to posting on forums but a recent shroud raid really erked me. My spouse and I had joined a shroud raid filled with I.n.f.er.us Sus. While getting ready to enter I stepped away from the keyboard, and had a quick smoke (typed afk ) and when I got back to the screen had a message saying they wanted me to drop for a guildie. I thought fine what the hell I'll go, but I noticed one of the casters had dropped instead, so I thought cool I'm good. So I entered. Not even 2 minutes later during buffs the shroud leader says we have to drop and reform. So I drop and thinking okay maybe someone messed up or something. I waited with my spouse for a reinvite, and to no avail didn't receive one. I received a half hearted sorry need your spot for guildie. I thought I would just post my thoughts and see what everyone had to say.

Thanks

This is what transpired:

(Tell): You tell ***, 'Just wanted to say sorry, we tried to ask for volunteers since nobody accepted it was in the best interest to just reform the whole party and start the lfm procedure over again. Again we appologize its nothing personal'
(Tell): *** tells you, 'so no invite'
(Tell): *** tells you, 'guess not huh'
(Tell): You tell ***, 'No, not this time around. I hate doing that, but the leader over extended invites...a guildie was switchign toons and he didn't notice'
(Tell): *** tells you, 'will be adding it to the forms then, later'
(Tell): You tell ***, 'Sorry to hear that, honestly it was nothing personal, and we are truly sorry'

We had not seen you type AFK. Even so, we asked two times for volunteer's, nobody responded, so as I said then, I'll say now, we are sorry for the misuderstanding, it was nothing personal against you. We keep pugs all the time, but in this circumstance, the guildie was switching toons, and already had the spot. We made the mistake of bringing another in.

[Impaqt]

Dont worry about it. I've run with you guys plenty and know your solid Smart players. If a Guild lost their respect every time some annonymous person claimed they were terrible there wouldnt be a single good guild on any server.

[Clay]

Don't sweat it.

Its not like there aren't enough shroud runs going on...

Perhaps someone was a little tired, and overreacted. definitely not cool of them to name the guild in the post without FIRST speaking with your guild leader.

[Phalkhan]

First ..They posted that in the Guild listings ? LOL what..being mad at one guild wasn't enough ....or maybe trying to just make it hard on all guilds ..? more n likely though, just confused.

OK from the standpoint of a constant PUGger..this can be infuriating...being told to leave party for a guildy ( which personally unless there is a reaon besieds they are a guildy is as bad as dropping a party for a guild run IMHO)... But remember folks those in a guild have givin thier alliegence to that guild...so basically ..it isn't that you do not count ..it is just thier guild, counts for more in thier gaming experiance ( which falls into the 'diffrent styles of play, get over it' catagory, as far as I can tell)

Now if you are running a guild quest/raid ( or whatever) and you ask somebody to drop cause your guild buddy just logged on ...thats is pretty rude IMHO ( as stated above)... that was not the case here though this time it was a miscomm. Now I could go into all the reasons why somebody was having a bad day ( but we all know those..cause we all have lives too ) but to show up and name, names, in a flame post just isn't cool .. heck even Scars refrains from such, and he is a selfproclaimed troll. ( this isn't a flame post BTW..and Scars is cool in my book...so please do not yell at me for doing it also)

Next time something like this happens..maybe you could offer em some sorta "Rain Check"? like ... "sorry we have to leave ya high and dry ..but we are gonna be doing this one again in 2 days ..we will hold 2 spots for ya, for being a good sport" ..... or.. "hey toss me on your friends list ..if you ever need a favor... " these kinda curtisies go a long way in RL..so why not here. Also do not be offended, if they do get mad tell ya to stuff it ..and call your mother a dog..and you the son of...! just remember instead.. All of us have an anus...just some folks fart more then others

And has been said many times here... good, polite, and informative guilds are the norm here besides without guilds these forums would be really boring.. I mean look at the posters ..98% are in guilds...that speaks volumes by itself.

and besides this is all about the shroud raid right ?....sheesh, they prolly spent more time complaining ..then looking for a shroud raid... cause those are going ALL the time....

Darn I wish my new desktop would get here..so I can shut off this laptop and play again ... sigh..

[Eldun]

Seems to me two seperate griefs:

1. Got booted from the raid
2. Situation handled poorly

If you are a PUG fill in on a guild raid you are a fill in. A bench warmer. A consolation prize. Be appreciative that, for the most part, you are going to be included on a smooth running group with a team that works and fights well together. A group that knows each other's strengths and weaknesses. For the most part just do as you are told and it is a no brainer. You get a completion, get your xp, and get your loot. Yeah it does have it's benefits to the hosting guild ... sometimes ... but often it is nothing more than shaving a minute or two off a completion or a third line of defense if a few people take a fireball to the face unexpectedly.

As for how dropping you was handled ... well, sounds like more class was needed based on your side of the story. I've been in plenty of Legion raids where a guildy wanted in last minute and we had to kick a PUGGER, much as happened to you. I know that we all felt bad, at least it sounds that way in Ventrillo, but it is a perk of being in the guild. Legion officers will typically say something like "Sorry, we feel badly but the guild members always come first. We'll try to get you in on another run".

If you are a Pugger try out a guild. I know from the times I've run guildless it was hard going and lonely.

[Ministry]

Well stated.

[Shyver]

Once you throw the LFM up you've already depleted your guild roster. If you fill the spots through the LFM and then realize your mistake of leaving out one of the guildies. Then you tell your guildy sorry but we filled and you move on with the group that you ended with through the LFM. To me this is almost as bad as dropping group in the middle of a quest because "guild is calling".

[Jaywade]

these things will happen, however we should all strive to make sure they don;t ....these things are really bad for the game, what's happens here is two things unguilded player thinks he's been slighted casue he's not good enough (doesn't matter if that is even the case if he thinks that's the reason) 2 you get a guild that has the feelings that if your not on eof them or run it that way you are a lesser player....

biggest problems the "elite" guilds have is they don't pug enough, and the game and how to and not to play get narrowed down to their own view of the handfull of players that deceide when where and how the guild plays and with whom.....

IMO if you open a LFM to fill some spots then you need to treat those players like you would treat anyone else, I mean if you had 3 spots open and 4 guildies not in your grp some one going to be let off right? and you wouldn;t ask one of those guildies to leave if 5 mins later another guildie logged on that had better equip or stats, or builds or was just a better player would you???? if the answer to that question is yes.... I feel for ya and I hope you guild is strong enough to live through all the drama that kind of thinking will produce......


btw I have been a guild officer(dark exile) a guild co founder(XoO) a guildie that was told nope your not a fit for us(better left unsaid) , a unguilded player (for about 3 months recently) and been active members or 2 guilds (brotherhood of blood, dead blades) and am currently in a guild (dead blades) so I don;t have anything against guilds, however I've seen plenty of problems with them , and for no real good reasons either

[Scarsgaard]

LOL...

If I join a run and a bit later I get a message such as "He Scars... we have a Guildy joining... sorry man but yer outta here"... I'm like "you dirty rotten piece o'dog doo"!... nah.. just joking.. I bail... go into my bedroom, stare at m,y box of dull razor blades and think... "hmmm, no friends, no ice cream... no good goat porn on the net... well... today is as good a day as any"... and I go cut some garlic. (or onions cuz then no one knows I'm crying):(:D

[Arlith]

LOL...

no good goat porn on the net...(:D

Spitting diet coke out your nose hurts.

[Strakeln]

It's to this point yet, but perhaps we should move this to the Khyber forums? :D:p

[Westerner]

Next time something like this happens..maybe you could offer em some sorta "Rain Check"? like ... "sorry we have to leave ya high and dry ..but we are gonna be doing this one again in 2 days ..we will hold 2 spots for ya, for being a good sport" ..... or.. "hey toss me on your friends list ..if you ever need a favor... " these kinda curtisies go a long way in RL..so why not here.


these things will happen, however we should all strive to make sure they don;t ....these things are really bad for the game, what's happens here is two things unguilded player thinks he's been slighted casue he's not good enough (doesn't matter if that is even the case if he thinks that's the reason) 2 you get a guild that has the feelings that if your not on eof them or run it that way you are a lesser player....
QFT, both of yez. :)

If this happened to me, I'd feel bad at being left out... but if I got a "sorry, but thanks for being a good sport on this, please accept a rain check" that would change a negative into a positive. Which reminds me...

It happened to me once on a VoN5 guild raid (don't remember what guild), the leader wanted to hold up the quest at the Arach Knight for 20 mins so their late arriving guildies could hop on, all the while babbling to each other in voice chat about non quest related stuff. Well, this struck me as pretty lame, :mad: but I was new, so kept silent and spent my time flirting with the elf sorceress.

Anyhoo, the guildies eventually joined up, and I'm feeling pretty annoyed by this time, when the leader says "appreciate your patience on this guys." Cool. :) We get down to business, pillars go down smoothly, and regroup by the dragon, and the leader says "Torgomund, since you were such a good sport, we'd like you to Hero the dragon." I'd never done it before, but with his help, I did. Very cool. :cool: I'd run with that dude anytime, only I can't remember his name... only the elf's...

[Scarsgaard]

Spitting diet coke out your nose hurts.

There are worse places to have it come out:eek:

www.mojoflix.com/Video/Squirt-Milk-Through-Eyes.html

[Durack]

Well you gotta love what people say & do..

here's the definition and kind of says it all.....
guild –noun 1. an organization of persons with related interests, goals, etc., esp. one formed for mutual aid or protection.


First off I was the party leader and let me explain this . I did notice sir, that you had a guild tag and maybe you run your guild a weee bit differently than others. As for mine.... IT's a family, they come first period.... That's the great thing bout a guild you spend hours together levelling characters, loot running, laughing , and forming a bond with one another that makes this game great.This concept may elude you but it does exist.. I can't speak for you but my guild is like a brotherhood period,,, and that means they come first but in NO way were you EVER treated unfairly nor was the information not forthcoming from me about the overextension. It happens all the time with hotel reservations in the real world. Shoot I even got a great trip to D.C. once just for that same kind of thing .
So that being said here is the FACTS of the incident.

1. I said in party chat over the voice "Hey guys I'm really sorry but we overextended the pick up spots by one so there are 3 pick up persons and I have a guildy that would like to join & since we have not even entered would anyone care to volunteer to allow us to pick up the guildy." NO RESPONSE!!

2. I also typed this just in case you did not have voice chat on. guess what NO RESPONSE!!!!..... Rather, I watched you zone into the mission and go AFK........ (Fact),.... Now maybe this is the embellishment that you would have others on the forums & server believe to support your claim at being treated unfairly but it simply is a falsehood. Honestly fellow Thelianians I ask you, If you requested polietly what I had stated above and were met not with a response, but rather someone (the poster in this thread) zoning into the mission without even acknowledging you how would you feel...????? What you your course of action be? Would this be a predicate to the subjects ability to follow directions in a raid? and would that be the same individual you would want to bring with you????

So fact #3 yes, based on your own actions and refusal to acknowledge the tells & verbal requests I sent I chose to make the determination. I veiwed your refusal to even reply to me I would simply reform and pick my fellow Inferus Sus brother up for the run as I hope one of your guildy's would do. Since no one but you had even entered the Shroud raid and NO time and resources were expended by you. . If you are going to sling accusations please back them up with FACTS and not embelishments. I have been on this server for 2 years and I dont recall seeing your guild here for very long. Here's a thought when you form a raid and I am a GUEST, I know I am a guest at will and conduct myself accordingly . But apparently you seem to be somewhat impressioned otherwise and felt slighted for an overinflated response to a simple request. *Sigh*

Durrack - Infersus Officer and Shroud leader during this event..
Maybe you need to live up to your own guild tag "Remember Honor" and try practicing what your tag preaches :p

[Kraak]

Durrack - obviously you're steamed. I'll tell you from my guilds experience, its better to let these things ride. Many will bow up to become water cooler lawyers, citing this and that about how you were wrong/right. In the end, it doesn't matter. If this guy is stewing, let him stew. Most of the folks you're going to want to run with, won't say a thing. They'll read this and say to themselves "hmmm butterflies", and that's about it. (well maybe "hmmm goat porn") Others will fan the flames of their boredom with a bunch of idle yammering. If people don't have the sense or discretion to take up their beef's in private, then they're *******. Having seen this tear up a fellow guildie/guild officer, and sour his attitude about the game for months. I'd say let it drop. You've got better things to do. Like look at goat porn all day long. Cheerz.

[Purgatory]

Why do people think everyone OWES them something......

[mehlinda]

Why do people think everyone OWES them something......

" I blame Stash"

[Westerner]

posted in error

[Durack]

3,2,1- Phew okay that was a long countdown backwards from 1,000,000,000 to 0. and now I'm done, much better now... Thank all you you for the words of support.. See you in game. <----- Still LFM friendly by the way:D:D:D

[Wrigley]

"Durrack - Infersus Officer and Shroud leader during this event..
Maybe you need to live up to your own guild tag "Remember Honor" and try practicing what your tag preaches"

First, obviously this was just a very poorly handled situation. If it had been handled properly there wouldnt be an issue.

Normally I shut up and just play the game, but because of Durracks personal attack thought I'd chime in. I would be hesitant admonishing someone about honor Durrack when just a few nights ago you told a guildie of mine that he should put a +3 str tome up for roll in a reaver raid because he was playing a caster, and your guildie could use it to better purpose. He did so (and I might note he has doen so 4 or 5 other times previous to this event). The next run you pulled a +3 cha tome which you promptly ate on your character that had a 6 cha dwarf , and no use at all for the tome instead of giving the casters a chance at it.

Now your loot in our raids is your loot, but I'd give more thought to your own rep than that of others.

[Kraak]

Mud flies from left field......long held beef comes out sideways.....flamebait dropped in the water.

Per my recent and unfortunate education of our "forum standards" after catching up on some forum history, I believe this would qualify as flamebait Wrig's. Per our outstanding and adult guidance, now would be the time to tattle. Instead, I'll just say. One event has nothing to do with the other. If you've got a beef with Durrack - try sending him a PM and work it out. I'm not saying that you're not justified in your heated tone. I'm just saying that no one cares. Talk to the people you have a problem with and work out like an adult. Or just let it ride. Peace.

[Wrigley]

My intent was certainly not to in any way start a flame war, and actually did not even mean to come off as heated. I see now it does come off that way, and I apologize. There is nothing for me to speak to Durrack about. He is aware of how we felt about it at that point. It is over and done with, and only got posted because of the words he had for the OP about lack of honor. However, I agree it was not directly part of that post, and will be careful not to make that mistake again.

[Purgatory]

Normally I shut up and just play the game,

But slinging poo like the monkeys do on the discovery channel is so much more fun?

maybe you should just do what you normally do


Normally I shut up and just play the game,

[Durack]

ok again ..I like to deal in FACTS not embelishments to try and sway people to my own viewpoint. So here are the facts surrounding your accusation.
1. You and I were in a pug Reaver (low man ) raid with some mutual friends from a guild that I will omit from this post out of respect for not dragging them into this.
2. There were NEVER any stipulations about raid items nor loot. (Please feel free to retort and claim that there was)
3. Yes 2 +3 tomes dropped in the chest which I assume that is the ONLY reason you and I surley still run the Stormreaver raid is to farm for these rare & helpful items.
4. In the end chest someone & I don't remember if it was you, or a friend of yours (playing a wizard, "mentioned only for historical accuracy" and not as a means to say that the class shouldn't have taken the str tome) pulled a +3 str tome. You generoulsy offered to put it up for a roll. and yes a guildy of mine rolled, and won that roll. (Look facts.. these go along way when accurately reporting an incident)
5. My guildy knows the drill in here & expected nothing from you but he was very appericiative for your generousity.
6. A +3 str tome dropped for me and yes there was a bard and a sorcerer present.
7. thats bard also happens to have a bard in my guild as well... (Fact) so techicially I was playing with another fellow guildy only he was under a different tag.
8. Yes my cleric has a 6 cha. so here's where the issue comes into play. I have several clerics all multiclassed with 2 levels of pally for saves. The particular cleric I was on only has 1 level of pally as it was not rolled with cha in mind due to point distribution (but that is a post for build design and not meant for here). So I was pondering wether or not I was going to put the tome up for a roll or at level increase going my second level of pally and taking enhancements to attain a 10 cha. That with a +6 item gives me 16 and effectively a +3 to all my saves (huge increase). Now I dont have to justify my build design to you in this post but as I mention before I deal in facts. So the FACT of the matter is that tome (wether in your opinion or not) will help my build end game with level 20 in mind. Period.
9. The fact that it took me some time to calculate wether or not this tome was going to help my character lead to the delay in me pulling it from the chest and I suppose this time delay is when your scheming began. The fact that I even considered to take the time to consider putting it out for a roll should speak for itself and I said "hey guys I'm going to keep my loot as it will help my build end game". Now you can have your opinion about a base 6 cha all you want but with that tome which I pulled and enhancements is in MY opinion justification enough to loot it and place it onto my own character.
10. Fact - I run this raid 2 times a week for the sole purpose of farming tomes and I have you complaining about not giving it up based on your opinion....

11. Final fact I also spoke with the bard (guildy) who didn't have a problem at all with it and totally agreed and said "it's your loot".

Now I ask you fellow DDO'rs do I work for the C.I.A. and have the ability to conduct mind control experiments and tell his friend to put his tome up for a roll. Am I a Jedi? No.. FACT you or your friend put the tome up for a roll as a token of generosity as you didn't need the tome and I distinctly remember hearing you say that you already had a +3 str tome on your wizard. So I ask you I wonder if you got a post about your wizard loot a +3 str tome when you pulled it, and why are you persecuting me for placing a tome into a stat which will only help me in the long run...
Please operate on logic and reason as emotion and opinion only leads to a path which is best left untravelled...

[theblaz]

Duack seems to have an answer for all of his behaviors.

Nice how that sort of thing works out for him.

[Durack]

yep I do .....

[Purgatory]

Duack seems to have an answer for all of his behaviors.

Nice how that sort of thing works out for him.

How come you don't have a answers for any of your behaviors?

[Jaywade]

this thing is a train wreak...it reeks of thread closeure...... but what we do have here is a good snap shot of the the server's you got guilds that think the most important thing is to make sure their own guildie's on on raid(even if the raid's already formed), you have other guild's that clearly feel "your lucky if we have to pug out a spot or 2 casue we're the best and rest of you far below us(feeling that way is one thing, but saying it here might not be wise), you got people that get upset when I give but you don't (biggest reasons I try to join grps that I know someone in the party, cause man do I see a lot of this)..thing is a mess...good news is there are lots of grps

last night need a shard and I can craft everthing is mixed just need that shard, jump into a 1-3 run (a grp where I don;t know a soul) we go okay (bit of a hicup on part 2 but we recover) part 3 a shard drops (for soemone taht doesn't need it) I'm the only one that says hey I need that ?I can craft right now, a min or 2 goes by he says okay I'll switch it over to you then someone else says I could use another one if up for roll, so it's put up for roll I lose no one crafts I could of...I drop grp

now wasn't my shard, so nothing is owned to me, but I thought the whole thing was in bad tast eso I drop grpp (they were going again) jump in other shroud run (w/ at least 6 people I know and enjoy playing with not guildies btw) 2 people say hey I need 1 first shard I speak up about needing 2nd , I pull sahrd out of first part switch it over, part 3 2 different people give me a shard so I swirch the xtra one over to someone that needed/wanted a second one...tottal different experience, casue it was people I knew

moral of the story try to grp w/ those you know casue less crazy things tend to happen..

[Oreg]

It's to this point yet, but perhaps we should move this to the Khyber forums? :D:p

You da man:D

[Durack]

i wish they would close this thread as it begins to reek of overinflated self value and opinion...:D:D:eek:http://http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2658/beatdeadhorseja4.gif

[RandomToon]

Disclaimer: I am a member of Inferus SUS

I feel that I can honestly comment on the PUG raid situation. I was a pugger since I started. Some of you have probably pugged with me. Never joined a guild until recently. The whole "you need to leave for a guildie" thing was just par for the course. I never took it personally. Did that for about a year and a half, and it has ALWAYS been that way. Guildies would come first, unless it meant that the quest would become ineffecient (i.e. they would kick my cleric for a third skillmonkey rogue or something). And you know what? Sometimes my cleric was kicked for a third trapmonkey rogue...and it was cool, cause it's what guilds do...

If the person complaining had left the raid at the start and said "hey, my guild is doing this run and needs me to fill a spot" it would have been no big deal - cause that is what guilds do. The impression I get is that this person was ticked off because he was not inclined to organize the raid himself (thus ensuring he wouldn't get kicked) but he had to find a raid with TWO slots, and that is not always easy to do depending on classes needed. So I think the problem here is really that...

Yes, it sucks when you don't get included. But the fact is, it happens. Yes, it is nice to offer a "rain check" but the fact is, if there wans't room for you now, why would you think there would be room a second time? It just opens the door to be kicked for a guildie twice, and making promises that you know you won't be able to keep is not cool. Better to be honest, and say "hey, it didn't work out this time - I am sorry, good luck". Especially when you are needing to give out two rain checks...

As for looting a +3 tome...I have not been in that situation enough times independantly to give an honest comment, so I won't say either way, because my opinion will obviously be skewed towards Durrak...

[sigtrent]

My personal policy is thus...

1. Ask the non guildy privately if they would be kind enough to drop group for a late arrival (although never after the quest starts!)
2. If they say they want to stay, cool, if they are willing to drop, thank them profuselly for thier understanding.

I wouldn't kick someone. The leader should be responsible for thier mistakes to everyone.

Still, I've never asked someone to make room for a guild member and had them refuse. They pretty much always have a very good attitude and understand the situation.