Twenty Shroud Improvements

[Angelus_dead]

Hi devs, here's a collection of advice that could have made The Shroud (Thirteenth Eclipse) into a better quest. Only the first three entries are changes you really need to make- the others would possibly take more time than they're worth, and you should just keep them in mind when building future quests. Aside from the two serious exploits, the Shroud is immeasurably better than the Ascension Chamber raid, and the latter is a higher priority to fix. But since Shroud is the only way to get green steel loot, it's going to be a high traffic quest for a long time, and could deserve some adjustment.

Necessary Changes
1. Fix the exploits in part 2.

2. Fix the exploits in part 4. Also, the next time you build a raid, test if this exploit works before releasing it.

3. Fix Sagrata. The monster Sagrata (Bearded Devil) uses game bugs against the players, meaning he is essentially exploiting. Either fix the game so that bug doesn't exist, or change his behavior so he doesn't benefit from it. It would be a bad idea to fix the pro-player exploits in part3 without also fixing this anti-player exploit.

His behavior: regardless of damage inflicted or intimidation, Sagrata will frequently decide to attack some random player, and he may either teleport there or run there.
The bug: melee attack collision regions are not moved according to the velocity of the attacker. So, if you are chasing directly behind a monster and attacking into his back, you won't get attack rolls. However, if you got in front of the monster and attacked empty space before he reaches it, you may get an attack roll.

This means when Sagrata decides to run around, he is making himself nigh-invincible to most players. This wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have a deadline to kill him, but we do. Here's a schematic illustration. Sagrata S has decided to run towards Cleric C, and Fighter F wants to hit him. At first, Fighter is attacking from behind and gets no rolls, even though on his screen he's hitting. Then Fighter runs faster and gets ahead of Sagrata, and keeps swinging and actually hits.

http://imageduck.com/i/ddochaser_th.jpg (http://imageduck.com/v/ddochaser.jpg)

There are two ways Turbine can solve this problem. The first is to simply change Sagrata's AI to not run towards random players. The better method would be to fix DDO's collision regions for moving melee combat, so that the velocity of the attacker is taken into account when positioning the attack volume. Basically, process it as an attack roll if the monster is inside either the swing area from known player position, or the swing area from velocity-extrapolated player position.

If this is not fixed, then there will be the situation where phase 2 raid sections involving Sagrata are 10-20 times harder than those without him. It would be wrong for the threat of the various Shavarath Lieutenants to be so unbalanced.


Optional Changes
Phase 1
4. Make phase 1 more engaging. The minimal definition of "engaging" used here is that players must pay some attention if they want to succeed. I know your design goal was to ensure that even very weak groups could beat phase 1. But really, that wasn't a great goal, and the result isn't good for gameplay. Phase 1 is a snoozer- for 10/12 of the players, you can really just autoattack for 60 seconds on each portal while you alt-tab and surf the web. The modified Portal Keepers were an attempt to make it engaging, but it failed (at best, only one player is engaged by them).

If you look at it from a high level, phase 1 is a really bad time sink. Basically an enforced 15 minute delay before you can actually start the raid- but what's much worse, is every 60 seconds during that delay you're required to "check in" and move your character to the next portal. It's mandated sleepwalking.

5. Make phase 1 more divided. The best way to complete it involves 11 or 12 characters moving together as one blob. Not only is this tactically uninteresting, but the density of player artwork overloads some of the lower-end player computers.

There are many, many ways to address points 4 and 5. Here's a few
a. Randomize the spawning order of the portals, so players can't travel the same route each time. They'll actually have to look around and decide where to go next.

b. When there are multiple portals spawning at the same time, add a mechanic so that the players must split up and destroy them concurrently. The simplest way to do that would be to set them so they cannot be damaged unless all portals have been hit in the last 20 seconds. A better approach would be for each portal to have a set of 5-10 mobs associated with it, and whenever one of those mobs dies the portal
immediately respawns it, unless the portal has been damaged within 20 seconds. The mobs spawned from those portals should be on patrol routes taking them to the other portals. That way, players need to split up and damage all the portals at once, or they'll be hit with excessive waves of mobs. If the portals are linked in this way, their hitpoints should be divided amoung the portals in a set.

c. In phase 1 only, activate the PvP system that prevents player characters from walking through each other. This would prevent too many players from stacking up to attack one portal.

Phase 2
6. Restore some kind of anti-rez effect to phase 2. Originally, Raise Dead was impossible until the phase was complete, but now it is unrestricted. As a compromise, the soulstones of any dead players could immediately be sucked to the center of the maze. That would allow them to be rezzed, but not instantly- and it would correspond to the way that the enemies get rezzed by reaching the center.

7. Do not aggro the phase 2 bosses until you have a conversation with them (similar to how you aggro Queen Laliat). The current system (aggro them on crossing an invisible line in the floor) is unnecessarily punitive to newbies.

8. Re-evaluate the walking speed of the dead version of Anur-shub.

Phase 3
9. When adding puzzle obstacles in the future, do not make them as amenable towards solving with an external program / web page as the "Lights Out" puzzles in phase 3 are. As a rule of thumb, use simpler puzzles but deny the player the luxury of full concentration because monsters are attacking as he tries to solve it. Or, make the puzzle a dynamic one so its conditions are constantly changing and players don't have time to punch it into alternate programs. There's no easy way to apply those changes to The Shroud, but keep them in mind for the next puzzle minigame.

10. Add Silver (and Cold Iron) ammunition to the Marrenoloth's vendor list. The guy is a powerful evil outsider, in a region full of evil outsiders. It does not make sense for him to craft or carry arrows ineffective against the DR of local outsiders. While you're at it, give him potions of Neut Poison, Prot Fire, Lesser Resto, and CSW/RSW... possibly at a +50% price premium, in exchange for the convenience.

Phase 4
11. Give Arraetrikos the iconic Blasphemy attack used by all D&D pit fiends. However, for game balance a saving throw should be added (and non-good characters get a +4 save bonus). Grahpically, Blashpemy can look like a stronger form of Unholy Blight. In addition, non-good DDO clerics should have Blasphemy added to their spell lists (along with Holy Word and all that).

12. Increase the threat of Meteor Swarm. It's ironic that this supposedly powerful spell is actually a non-issue to any player who has fire resist 30 (which is every player in here). The reason is that the damage from Meteor Swarm is divided into four hits, so your fire resist has quadruple effect. To solve this, add some of the other benefits of the D&D Meteor Swarm spell: (a) no saving throw if the meteor hits
you directly, (b) bludgeon damage. To compensate for stronger Meteor Swarms, reduce the DBF damage somewhat.

13. Make Arraetrikos's flying animation actually relevant. Currently it doesn't engage the players at all, because once you learn not to stand under one of the two paths he can fly, you are perfectly safe. There's no reason to look up- so the Pit Fiend may as well not even have a flying animation. Also if by some chance you step in the flight corridor and get hit, it's just a Meteor Swarm, which is weak.
To fix this, modify the flight path so that instead of flying directly across, he flies 25% of the way across, picks a random player, flies directly over that player, then flies to the nearest door and leaves. In this way, the players could not know a priori that some locations are safe from aerial bombardment.

14. While Arraetrikos is flying, allow him to use his Teleport attack to pull occasional players up to him. This is just fun to watch, and they'll fall back down immediately.

15. While Arraetrikos is flying, allow ranged attacks to damage his actual hitpoints. This just makes sense.

16. In Phase 4, give Arraetrikos a version of the Summon Devil ability possessed by D&D pit fiends. Each time his hitpoints reach the 75%, 50%, 25%, and 10% thresholds, one of the 4 portals will randomly spawn an orthon/bezerika/barbazue/thaumateurge. To compensate for this increased power, minorly reduce Arraetriko's hitpoint total. The addition of more monsters will make the tactical environment more complex and engaging. Plus, it is uncharacteristic for a Pit Fiend (who is described as a "general") to fight alone.

Phase 5
17. In Phase 5, give Arraetrikos the summon ability described above. In addition, when his hitpoints reach the 85%, 60%, 35%, and 20% thresholds, randomly pick one of his four lieutenants to return to life. Clearly, this will make the battle more complex and interesting, especially if the lieutenant buffs Arraetrikos with an aura. To compensate for this serious increase in threat, reduce Arreatriko's hitpoints moderately.

18. Add The Thirteenth Eclipse to the list of raid counters in /quest completions.

19. Improve the ingredient balance between the various sizes. The simplest way to achieve this is to add an arcane NPC to Meridia who will exchange shroud ingredients for those of lesser size. For 1 Medium Arrowhead you can have 1 Small Arrowhead, or for 3 Medium you can have 2 Small. He could also exchange Shards of Power for Shards of a lower size.

20. Improve the ingredient balance between the various items. The simplest way to achieve this is to add another arcane NPC to Meridia who will exchange 3 of anything for 1 of anything else (in the same size). There's already a gianthold NPC who does this with the ancient relics.

Note that the reason there is a problem with ingredient balance is that the demand for ingredients in recipes is unequal. Every single recipe for a tier upgrade MUST have 2 arrowheads, 2 devil scales, and 1 sulfurous stone. But the other requirements are variable, and sometimes can be less. The problem is exacerbated because some recipes are far more popular than others, and the result can be seen by the glut of Infernal Chains on the auction house, to the exclusion of most everything else.

Also, this same NPC could exchange a Splintered Horn for another ingredient on a 1:1 basis, fixing that earlier screw up.

[TwoHeals]

In part 5 I'd like to see spawns coming out of the portals like in part 1, portal keepers and all :D

[xealot7]

Good post. Well thought out.

I agree with the main points.

/signed

[Impaqt]

It takes yoru groups 60 Seconds to beat down a Portal?

[MysticTheurge]

I like these ideas.

I honestly didn't even know the Pit Fiend was flying anywhere the first three or four times I did Shroud 4.

[Yaga_Nub]

16. In Phase 4, give Arraetrikos a version of the Summon Devil ability possessed by D&D pit fiends. Each time his hitpoints reach the 75%, 50%, 25%, and 10% thresholds, one of the 4 portals will randomly spawn an orthon/bezerika/barbazue/thaumateurge. To compensate for this increased power, minorly reduce Arraetriko's hitpoint total. The addition of more monsters will make the tactical environment more complex and engaging. Plus, it is uncharacteristic for a Pit Fiend (who is described as a "general") to fight alone.

Phase 5
17. In Phase 5, give Arraetrikos the summon ability described above. In addition, when his hitpoints reach the 85%, 60%, 35%, and 20% thresholds, randomly pick one of his four lieutenants to return to life. Clearly, this will make the battle more complex and interesting, especially if the lieutenant buffs Arraetrikos with an aura. To compensate for this serious increase in threat, reduce Arreatriko's hitpoints moderately.


This is how every DDO boss battle should be. True we, for the most part, are smarter than the AI but the devs should compensate for that fact by using mobs not immunities or hyper-inflated hit points.

Take SC for example. The general has 4 henchmen and then 10 or so elementals/memphits behind locked doors. I would make it so that when you aggro ANY of the giants in there, they call all the others including the general. I would keep the memphits locked up but when the general is at 50% hp, he drops the barriers so that you now have another 10 critters attacking you while he heals himself up or whatever.

Now back to the Shroud. The Pit Fiend shouldn't have 500000000000000000 hp. He should have an army available to him at a moments notice. He should be able to summon not just his dead lts. but also waves of bearded devils and orthons. I agree that at a certain point like 5% of hp he shouldn't be able to summon any longer but he should start cycling through a progression of spells that includes heals on himself as well as damaging spells.

This game could be so much more fun without the use of immunities and inflated hp if only more mobs were used to change end battles from a 1 v group to a group v group fight more often.

[Serpent]

It takes yoru groups 60 Seconds to beat down a Portal?

I believe its more of a generalization for an average group. There are what 16 portals, and it takes about 16 mins for an average group, give or take, to complete. Works out to be 1 min per portal.

Also fantastic ideas, I do think that ingreds should drop across phases.

1-2 small ingreds
2-3 med ingreds
3-4 large ingreds
5 larges only

taking this into considerations, no person should never not get an ingred. Also remove the horns or let us trade them in.

[aldan]

Very well stated. I like it. Not a big fan of the part 1 suggestions but something has to be done to make it fun. Right now its run to portal A, dancing ball, beat on portal, run to portal B.

Other than that, I think the part 4 suggestions should make it random and fun instead of sooo scripted and static.

[sirgog]

Like these suggestions.

[Josh]

I think the Abbot should be fixed before one erg of energy is used to do anything to this quest.

[Raithe]

The bug: melee attack collision regions are not moved according to the velocity of the attacker.

This is not the "bug." Velocity is not the only factor that adds to the position disparity between client and server, as client latency and server load also factor into the equation. "Fixing" it would probably require playing part of the game on the client, which is just asking for hacks to appear. I'd rather they not "fix" this.

Had a run of "Running with the Devils" where the sorceror and I (on my rogue/wiz/ranger) were taking down the end bosses easily and consistently with magic missile and force missile. Perturbed that he wasn't the star of the show, the barbarian leader of the party ordered that we all stand together so that he could get a melee swing at the bearded devil boss. Twenty seconds later the cleric, mage, fighter, and my character were dead due to cleave attacks interrupting our abilities to do anything while the barbarians luckily finished off what little remained to the bearded devil while retaining only a sliver of health themselves.

The sorceror in the party didn't speak a word after that little fiasco, so I knew he was somewhat less amused about it than I.

Morale of the story: quit trying so hard to hit running creatures in the back and let a ranged combatant do what they do.

[Angelus_dead]

This is not the "bug." Velocity is not the only factor that adds to the position disparity between client and server, as client latency and server load also factor into the equation. "Fixing" it would probably require playing part of the game on the client, which is just asking for hacks to appear.
You are wrong. I'm not going to go into a big dissertation on server side prediction, but suffice it to say this has been a solved problem in the network programming literature since the mid eighties.

If players wanted to hack their DDO clients to get an advantage in melee combat, they could already be doing that now.

Of course, it is entirely possible Turbine lacks the resources to fix this bug properly. It's likely that the network programmer for DDO was reassigned to other projects years ago, and nobody currently involved is able to safely edit the code. If that is the case, fixing the bug is off the menu, and they should instead modify the monster's behaviors to not take advantage of the bug.

[Raithe]

You are completely wrong. I'm not going to go into a big dissertation on server side prediction, but suffice it to say this has been a solved problem in the network programming literature since the mid eighties.

No, I am not completely wrong.

I was imagining what kind of server-side prediction I would use when I came up with my statement of "it would probably require playing part of the game on the client." The answer, obviously, is that I wouldn't. Server-side prediction is exactly that... a prediction, and prone to error. Rather than create a game that is prone to error anyway, I would simply give up and attempt to secure the client in some manner.

Predictions are best left in the hands of players. Swing ahead of the moving mob, or is that too hard?

[Angelus_dead]

Rather than create a game that is prone to error anyway, I would simply give up and attempt to secure the client in some manner.
The game IS in error right now. Swinging an axe through a monster's body and not receiving an attack roll is an error.


Predictions are best left in the hands of players. Swing ahead of the moving mob, or is that too hard?
Yes, it is in fact too hard. Why do you ask?

[MysticTheurge]

I hate to get into the middle of this Server vs. Client debate, but...

Attacking running enemies used to work.

[Sandpredator]

Amaras....you're my hero!!!I would of said the same thing but you beat me to it. WTG

[Yaga_Nub]

I hate to get into the middle of this Server vs. Client debate, but...

Attacking running enemies used to work.

Yup.

[Amaras]

Amaras....you're my hero!!!I would of said the same thing but you beat me to it. WTG

Wow, and I thought I was going to be yelled at by most people due to adding in "The harsh reality". Thank you ^_^

[Ringos]

I believe its more of a generalization for an average group. There are what 16 portals, and it takes about 16 mins for an average group, give or take, to complete. Works out to be 1 min per portal.

Just as an FYI, the last few runs it has taken us about 30-35 seconds or so per portal with a decent group and nearly a minute for one group that wasn't the best portal-killin' makeup. At 35 seconds per, it takes about 16 minutes to complete the quest (due to running to the next portal with the choppy lag! :) )

[Snoggy]

13. Make Arraetrikos's flying animation actually relevant. Currently it doesn't engage the players at all, because once you learn not to stand under one of the two paths he can fly, you are perfectly safe. There's no reason to look up- so the Pit Fiend may as well not even have a flying animation. Also if by some chance you step in the flight corridor and get hit, it's just a Meteor Swarm, which is weak.
To fix this, modify the flight path so that instead of flying directly across, he flies 25% of the way across, picks a random player, flies directly over that player, then flies to the nearest door and leaves. In this way, the players could not know a priori that some locations are safe from aerial bombardment.

14. While Arraetrikos is flying, allow him to use his Teleport attack to pull occasional players up to him. This is just fun to watch, and they'll fall back down immediately.

15. While Arraetrikos is flying, allow ranged attacks to damage his actual hitpoints. This just makes sense.

16. In Phase 4, give Arraetrikos a version of the Summon Devil ability possessed by D&D pit fiends. Each time his hitpoints reach the 75%, 50%, 25%, and 10% thresholds, one of the 4 portals will randomly spawn an orthon/bezerika/barbazue/thaumateurge. To compensate for this increased power, minorly reduce Arraetriko's hitpoint total. The addition of more monsters will make the tactical environment more complex and engaging. Plus, it is uncharacteristic for a Pit Fiend (who is described as a "general") to fight alone.

These ideas above turn the encounter from something unique to DDO into something that's really just a rehash of WoW's Onyxia fight. That's pretty boring.

[Amaras]

These ideas above turn the encounter from something unique to DDO into something that's really just a rehash of WoW's Onyxia fight. That's pretty boring.

In all honesty, I have to agree with Snoggy here. Bringing in concepts from other games (WoW) just makes this game much more ununique and less "epic" then it already has been. (Personally I despise WoW and how they manage their game, It is a skill less and could have been done so much better. )

[Angelus_dead]

These ideas above turn the encounter from something unique to DDO into something that's really just a rehash of WoW's Onyxia fight. That's pretty boring.
That's not remotely true. To say that demonstrates unfamiliarity with Onyxia, Arraetrikos, or both.

The claim that making something more complex also makes it more boring is absurd on its face.

[Raithe]

Attacking running enemies used to work.

I've been playing since the end of February in 2006. Perhaps you could shed some light on when this big negative change occurred?

Personally, I think your observation is merely an illusion created by an increase in monster movement rates, changes in AI, an increase in the use of fearsome and fear spells, and perhaps a slight degradation in overall internet latency worldwide (due to increased usage).

EDIT: Oh, and I personally have very little trouble attacking moving mobs now.

[Angelus_dead]

Personally, I think your observation is merely an illusion created by an increase in monster movement rates, changed in AI, an increase in the use of fearsome and fear spells, and perhaps a slight degradation in overall internet latency worldwide (due to increased usage).
That is correct. Well, the internet has not become more crowded. But the reason people think the bug didn't always exist is because there wasn't any monster AI that would cause them to move away from player characters at full speed for an extended time.

[Aspenor]

Let's see.....

Make all these unnecessary changes to make 1 person happy...

or...

new content....

:cool:

[MysticTheurge]

I've been playing since the end of February in 2006. Perhaps you could shed some light on when this big negative change occurred?

Module 4.

[Draclaud]

I think the Abbot should be fixed before one erg of energy is used to do anything to this quest.

100% agree with this statement.

[Angelus_dead]

Let's see.....
Make all these unnecessary changes to make 1 person happy...
or...
new content....

What part of "take more time than they're worth, and you should just keep them in mind when building future quests" do you not understand?

[Angelus_dead]

I think the Abbot should be fixed before one erg of energy is used to do anything to this quest.
Yes. That is why the original post contains the line: "the Shroud is immeasurably better than the Ascension Chamber raid, and the latter is a higher priority to fix"

[Snoggy]

That's not remotely true. To say that demonstrates unfamiliarity with Onyxia, Arraetrikos, or both.

Typical Angelus responses of being dead wrong and/or not remotely true. However, anyone who's done Onyxia enough times to craft enough cloaks for two separate guilds (that would be me, back in the day, one of the few crafters with the stupid recipes) ... can say with certainty that your ideas to turn the Pit Fiend's flying about into a situation where it flies about shooting fiery attacks at the raid, certainly does turn it into Phase 2 Onyxia. Which always has been nothing but yawn inducing as people move from spot to spot, trying to avoid fireballs (and breath attacks) while still maintaining ranged DPS on her.

And adding in little buddies for the Pit Fiend is eerily similar to whelp adds.

Sounds to me like you're the one unfamiliar with Onyxia. Not me.

[DagazUlf]

Very nicely done, with good points and options presented. :)

I would just like to add that although I do think fixing the Abbot should be a pretty high priority, the one bug you point out below occurs throughout the game world and affects players of all levels. I would really like to see this one resolved more than any one other thing in the game:



The bug: melee attack collision regions are not moved according to the velocity of the attacker. So, if you are chasing directly behind a monster and attacking into his back, you won't get attack rolls. However, if you got in front of the monster and attacked empty space before he reaches it, you may get an attack roll.

[Angelus_dead]

Typical Angelus responses of being dead wrong and/or not remotely true. However, anyone who's done Onyxia enough times to craft enough cloaks for two separate guilds (that would be me, back in the day, one of the few crafters with the stupid recipes) ... can say with certainty that your ideas to turn the Pit Fiend's flying about into a situation where it flies about shooting fiery attacks at the raid, certainly does turn it into Phase 2 Onyxia.
Oh for crying out loud.

The whole POINT of Onyxia is long-term aggro control. That is THE key consideration when fighting that raid. You have your MT using his aggro powers and holding the dragon facing one way so nobody else gets hit, and all the hitters do their DPS while being careful not to exceed his aggro level. Complicating factors are Onyxia's special anti-aggro attacks and CC stuff, plus the need to not pull adds from outside.

DDO's Arraetrikos is IMMUNE to long-term aggro. Unlike most DDO monsters, he does not accumulate hate.

It is foolish to look at one encounter which is based on aggro management and another in which aggro management is impossible and then claim they are similar.


And adding in little buddies for the Pit Fiend is eerily similar to whelp adds.
In reality, it's not similar at all.


Sounds to me like you're the one unfamiliar with Onyxia. Not me.
It does not sound like that even minorly.

[Amaras]

I play WoW

Let us all now shun him. :D

[gpk]

I've been playing since the end of February in 2006. Perhaps you could shed some light on when this big negative change occurred?
Personally, I think your observation is merely an illusion created by an increase in monster movement rates, changes in AI, an increase in the use of fearsome and fear spells, and perhaps a slight degradation in overall internet latency worldwide (due to increased usage).


Nope it's a real bug introduced in Mod4's AI tweak update iirc, do a search in the forums for "Phantom Attack", the term coined after the town hall meeting where it was brought up.



EDIT: Oh, and I personally have very little trouble attacking moving mobs now.


Go out into the vale and chase some Rakshasa around and report to us your observations please.

[gpk]

Let's see.....

Make all these unnecessary changes to make 1 person happy...

or...

new content....

:cool:

1 person? The vast majority of the people I've seen would agree with the OP.

[Angelus_dead]

Let us all now shun him. :D
Does the phrase "More DOTS more DOTS" ring a bell? What about "I need you to DPS wery wery slowly?"

[Yaga_Nub]

I've been playing since the end of February in 2006. Perhaps you could shed some light on when this big negative change occurred?

Personally, I think your observation is merely an illusion created by an increase in monster movement rates, changes in AI, an increase in the use of fearsome and fear spells, and perhaps a slight degradation in overall internet latency worldwide (due to increased usage).

EDIT: Oh, and I personally have very little trouble attacking moving mobs now.


That is correct. Well, the internet has not become more crowded. But the reason people think the bug didn't always exist is because there wasn't any monster AI that would cause them to move away from player characters at full speed for an extended time.

The day Mod 4 went live is the day this started happening. It's a verifiable fact. Something that was introduced into the code on that update broke a LOT of stuff.

[Aspenor]

1 person? The vast majority of the people I've seen would agree with the OP.

All the people you see while behind your computer???

Just like last time the "vast majority" of people didn't want a new death penalty???

No offense, I just take your "vast majority" quotes with a grain of salt.

[gpk]

All the people you see while behind your computer???

Just like last time the "vast majority" of people didn't want a new death penalty???

No offense, I just take your "vast majority" quotes with a grain of salt.

You can take em anyway you want, as I do yours. Assuming you play an appreciable amount in both guild and pug runs, ask around. The OPs arguments are more universally agreed upon than you choose to believe.

[Amaras]

Does the phrase "More DOTS more DOTS" ring a bell?

Just because some over enthusiastic "raid" leader decided to go ballistic on people doesn't mean I'm not allowed to shun you for knowing far too much about WoW. :D

[Angelus_dead]

You can take em anyway you want, as I do yours. Assuming you play an appreciable amount in both guild and pug runs, ask around. These OPs arguments are more universally agreed upon than you choose to believe.
I'm not sure I'd really call it "universal" gpk.

You see, unfortunately there are a lot of players who only care about loot. They don't want quests to be interesting or challenging... they'd be happy to just sleepwalk through something as long as they get their two large ingredients. In fact, sometimes those players are even so bold as to attack the idea of removing blatant exploits from the game.

[MysticTheurge]

If Module 4 didn't introduce the hitbox phantom-attack-on-running-NPCs problem, then why did it never come up before Mod 4?

I understand that the AI tweaks in Mod 4 made it so that archers and casters run away from you, and so you think maybe it's just become apparent at that point since people weren't chasing stuff before.

But do you honestly think that people weren't chasing stuff before? What about stuff aggro'd on kiting archers? Or chasing after kiting casters?

Stuff did run before Module 4, and there were presumably people trying to hit the things. And we didn't get reports of a problem.

[Aspenor]

You can take em anyway you want, as I do yours. Assuming you play an appreciable amount in both guild and pug runs, ask around. These OPs arguments are more universally agreed upon than you choose to believe.

The "vast majority" of people I play with are too busy beating quests, looting, and crafting to bother with caring about any of these unimportant issues.

[Amaras]

I don't think you could shun me when I was already shunning you.

Well, considering you still havn't responded to my first comment on this. I'll assume all my points are valid and correct ^_^

[Angelus_dead]

Just because some over enthusiastic "raid" leader decided to go ballistic on people doesn't mean I'm not allowed to shun you for knowing far too much about WoW. :D
I don't think you could shun me when I was already shunning you.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, considering you still havn't responded to my first comment on this. I'll assume all my points are valid and correct ^_^
There is nothing I'd like more than to reply to that comment. Unfortunately, it would be against the rules of the forum.

[gpk]

The "vast majority" of people I play with are too busy beating quests, looting, and crafting to bother with caring about any of these unimportant issues.

Unimportant is it? Is it unimportant to turn an often dreary repetitive raid into a ~fun one with a few simple modifications?
People run and will continue to run this raid many many times; must it be such a yawn-fest?

I guess you wouldn't care either if you were in a big gray cube where you would just run from 1 corner to the next beating down on some static gray object and crafting at the end. Crafting a nice item that you can use in the next gray monotonous cube of a quest. Yep unimportant.
Think of all the "new content" we can have, huge gray areas with gray shapes to beat on, fun!

[Amaras]

There is nothing I'd like more than to reply to that comment. Unfortunately, it would be against the rules of the forum.

I humbly invite you to a PM session then. If you wish to talk about it logically. If its a "I want this and your a poo poo head" rant no thanks.

[Turial]

If Module 4 didn't introduce the hitbox phantom-attack-on-running-NPCs problem, then why did it never come up before Mod 4?

I understand that the AI tweaks in Mod 4 made it so that archers and casters run away from you, and so you think maybe it's just become apparent at that point since people weren't chasing stuff before.

But do you honestly think that people weren't chasing stuff before? What about stuff aggro'd on kiting archers? Or chasing after kiting casters?

Stuff did run before Module 4, and there were presumably people trying to hit the things. And we didn't get reports of a problem.

Maybe people just assumed it was the fault of the ranger or caster for running away rather then holding their ground and getting killed.'

But yeah it seems to be linked to the mod 4 AI changes.

[oronisi]

Wow I can't believe you went into so much detail in this game bug that has existed since launch but called it an exploit for 1 specific mob in the game. It's not an exploit, its a limitation of the game engine, and it's been here forever.

That said, you don't need to change the Devil, just change your tactics. If he picks someone at random, and keeps coming after that person, switch up your teams. Or alternatively, you could split up into 3 teams and whoop the other 3 bosses, then each team can attack the devil when he spawns on that group.

[gpk]

Wow I can't believe you went into so much detail in this game bug that has existed since launch but called it an exploit for 1 specific mob in the game. It's not an exploit, its a limitation of the game engine, and it's been here forever.

I think you may be thinking of a different exploit; this exploit also works on other raid bosses though it's often not desirable to use it in some other raids.

[Angelus_dead]

That said, you don't need to change the Devil, just change your tactics. If he picks someone at random, and keeps coming after that person, switch up your teams. Or alternatively, you could split up into 3 teams and whoop the other 3 bosses, then each team can attack the devil when he spawns on that group.
Yes, I can and do beat it. That's not the issue.

The problem is that because of his taking benefit from the bug, Sagrata can be around ten times as challenging as the other possible bosses (depending on your group makeup). It is clearly a mistake for 1 of the 10 to be that much tougher than all the others. Currently that is rarely a problem, because players generally use exploits in this phase anyhow.

Once those exploits are removed, the problem presented by Sagrata will become more apparent. People doing an elite Shroud run will go into phase 2, look at the bosses, and if Sagrata is there... they'll just recall and reform the group to start again. He increases the challenge so much that it'll take less time and resources to repeat phase 1.

[Angelus_dead]

Wow I can't believe you went into so much detail in this game bug that has existed since launch but called it an exploit for 1 specific mob in the game. It's not an exploit, its a limitation of the game engine, and it's been here forever.
I call it an exploit here because this is the first monster who
1. Has an AI script which exhibits the bug very frequently
2. Has a quest-objective script such that the bug can halt your progress

In some other places where that bug can be prominent, such as Cochtilua in Prison of the Planes, the monsters are not healing and rezzing themselves, so the fact that an error causes you to defeat them slower than you're entitled isn't very important. But if you're trying to kill Sagrata before Anur-shub (the Power-walking Cinderspawn) makes it back to his base, then it is a real problem.

[MysticTheurge]

People doing an elite Shroud run will go into phase 2, look at the bosses, and if Sagrata is there... they'll just recall and reform the group to start again. He increases the challenge so much that it'll take less time and resources to repeat phase 1.

I've already been in Shroud runs (on Normal) that have done that.

Sometimes it's because we wipe thanks to Sagrata and so we have to restart.

Sometimes it's because people just agree that it'll be easier to redo part I than deal with Sagrata. And it'll have more rewards.

[brshelton]

Yes, I can and do beat it. That's not the issue.

The problem is that because of his taking benefit from the bug, Sagrata can be around ten times as challenging as the other possible bosses (depending on your group makeup). It is clearly a mistake for 1 of the 10 to be that much tougher than all the others. Currently that is rarely a problem, because players generally use exploits in this phase anyhow.

Once those exploits are removed, the problem presented by Sagrata will become more apparent. People doing an elite Shroud run will go into phase 2, look at the bosses, and if Sagrata is there... they'll just recall and reform the group to start again. He increases the challenge so much that it'll take less time and resources to repeat phase 1.

we did that since the first elite run in the game....

[Riorik]

Phase 1 is a snoozer- for 10/12 of the players, you can really just autoattack for 60 seconds on each portal while you alt-tab and surf the web. The modified Portal Keepers were an attempt to make it engaging, but it failed (at best, only one player is engaged by them).



No, don't take away my browsing time!

[Locathus]

Very nice, OP. Devs, maybe you should have him test out the next Raid before release? :)

[Chelsa]

Sagrata is one of the easier bosses to kill on elite, then again the groups I run with don't recall out because they don't like a certain draw. We just do it and polish our techniques.

Also, we seem to be getting allot of these lately, nobody on the forums can state that anything is universally agreed upon, there are zero facts to support such claims. I don't mind a opinions and a good argument, but let try to be accurate when doing it.

[Grond]

You are wrong. I'm not going to go into a big dissertation on server side prediction, but suffice it to say this has been a solved problem in the network programming literature since the mid eighties.



What MMOs were you programming on in the mid 80's?

[Aspenor]

Okay this is what I'm wondering...

You could make a list like this for the any raid in the game. Why pick on the shroud? It's not the devs fault that you don't get enjoyment out of the quest. It's a ton of fun for a lot of players, myself included. Just because something you think is boring (i.e. meleeing the pit fiend in part 5, or being an arcane in part 4) doesn't mean everybody else does. I happen to take immense pleasure out of playing my role in the Shroud from all angles, whether it be maintaining stoneskin and displacement on the tanks while helping with healing, killing things, or CC'ing things.

[smatt]

Interesting Ideas really, but mostly not really neccesary..... The quest needs to be left so that at least decent PUGS can make it through, and therefore it's in good shape now.

What they really need to fix and should've BEFORE or very soon are all the bugs the socalled "l33ts" used to learn the quest and are still using to this day to beat it....... AND to start banning the pricks that're are constatnly STILL using the exploits everyday on every server.

[MysticTheurge]

You could make a list like this for the any raid in the game. Why pick on the shroud?

He wasn't exactly "picking on it."

This was, if you ask me, pretty constructive feedback. In the OP's typically gruff style sure (though not even exceedingly so), but constructive none-the-less. And I'm not sure why it's gotten such a defensive reaction from some people.

[Aspenor]

He wasn't exactly "picking on it."

This was, if you ask me, pretty constructive feedback. In the OP's typically gruff style sure (though not even exceedingly so), but constructive none-the-less. And I'm not sure why it's gotten such a defensive reaction from some people.

Well, I'm fine with the constructive feedback, but not everybody agrees with this feedback. This quest was one of the most fun wild times I've had the first times through the quest, just because it's a little repetitive I don't feel that it needs to be criticized as in-depth as it has been here. Fix the exploits, definitely, and I understand that a big part of the post was focused on that.

But all the other stuff....I just don't see how these things would be important. Randomized locations, summoned armies, all the fluff...it's just too much. It's like asking for a revamp to Velah and have her actually use her ability to fly against us.

I'm also aware that it was meant as a future reference tool, more than anything, now. However, the OP's tone and method of communication tends to arise the defenses in everybody. There are a lot of people that LOVE this quest, and to take the point of view that your perspective is better than everybody else's is going to cause them to defend their point of view.

I guess my point is that if all the heavy-handed emphatic statements of being right or wrong are the primary issue with why people have responded thus. Points of view are subjective and really, with exceptions made for the exploits, all these points are subjective as to whether they would really add ANYTHING to the raid or not.

I don't really feel like it would add anything.

[oronisi]

Yes, I can and do beat it. That's not the issue.

The problem is that because of his taking benefit from the bug, Sagrata can be around ten times as challenging as the other possible bosses (depending on your group makeup). It is clearly a mistake for 1 of the 10 to be that much tougher than all the others. Currently that is rarely a problem, because players generally use exploits in this phase anyhow.

Once those exploits are removed, the problem presented by Sagrata will become more apparent. People doing an elite Shroud run will go into phase 2, look at the bosses, and if Sagrata is there... they'll just recall and reform the group to start again. He increases the challenge so much that it'll take less time and resources to repeat phase 1.

Wow I did not know so many people were exploiting the raid....nor did I know exploiting was needed to beat ANY of the part 2 boss combos. My guild does the shoud all the time, much like everyone right now, and we don't have to exploit the bosses to get the job done. Nor do we particularly have an issue with the devil. Sure he's harder than others, but if you adjust your tactics to the bosses, its not 10x harder at all.

[Yaga_Nub]

He wasn't exactly "picking on it."

This was, if you ask me, pretty constructive feedback. In the OP's typically gruff style sure (though not even exceedingly so), but constructive none-the-less. And I'm not sure why it's gotten such a defensive reaction from some people.

I highlighted why so many people automatically go into a more defensive mode before actually reading any of his posts. It's a shame because this one actually has some good ideas and feedback but even as I was reading the OP and thinking how good it was, I kept waiting for the string of follow on posts that would cause people to ignore the good parts.

[Dirac]

I think the Abbot should be fixed before one erg of energy is used to do anything to this quest.

I agree, though I think they might be able to spare one Hartree of energy, or if resources are not available, one eV.

[gpk]

Okay this is what I'm wondering...

You could make a list like this for the any raid in the game. Why pick on the shroud? It's not the devs fault that you don't get enjoyment out of the quest. It's a ton of fun for a lot of players, myself included. Just because something you think is boring (i.e. meleeing the pit fiend in part 5, or being an arcane in part 4) doesn't mean everybody else does. I happen to take immense pleasure out of playing my role in the Shroud from all angles, whether it be maintaining stoneskin and displacement on the tanks while helping with healing, killing things, or CC'ing things.

You're not suggesting displacement for the Pit Fiend are you?

The shroud deserves more attention mainly because it is run SO OFTEN. Typically you don't run it once every 3 days per character, you run it multiple times before going on a timer. Those boring bits, phase 1 and phase fight imo can be easily improved on.

And as for you getting "immense pleasure" from the shroud ask yourself a) how long will that pleasure last? b) would you ever not get anything but "immense pleasure" from any DDO quest/raid?

My wife gets "immense pleasure" from button mashing in Soul Calibur also...

[gpk]

Wow I did not know so many people were exploiting the raid....nor did I know exploiting was needed to beat ANY of the part 2 boss combos. My guild does the shoud all the time, much like everyone right now, and we don't have to exploit the bosses to get the job done. Nor do we particularly have an issue with the devil. Sure he's harder than others, but if you adjust your tactics to the bosses, its not 10x harder at all.

I think you'd be surprised how many pugs exploited phase 2 before the last patch, still do using other tricks (not that important but oh well).

The main exploits come in phase 4 and 5; I was wondering a few weeks back why the number of completion LFMs skyrocketed all of a sudden, well it didn't take me long to realize why.

I think with a few smart modifications the very often repeated raid can be made more fun while simultaneously be more of a real challenge for a typical group rather than a boring slugfest which may require some groups expending more resources than they should.

[Hakushi]

18. Add The Thirteenth Eclipse to the list of raid counters in /quest completions.
Its already there, I'm guessing you never completed the quest, It's not in your "favor window" but you still recieve credit for it.I have included my commented in Red.

I'm not sure who really completed the raid, but it's NOT in the "/quest completions" list but the timer is in the "/quest" list. It's in the favor list sometimes, but a lot of times, it dosn't show up in the list and whatever it is in the list or not, it dosn't give any favor. When it's in the list, if you highlight it, there's no pop-up windows with the information of the quest like any other quest in the list.

[Snoggy]

Oh for crying out loud.

The whole POINT of Onyxia is long-term aggro control. That is THE key consideration when fighting that raid. You have your MT using his aggro powers and holding the dragon facing one way so nobody else gets hit, and all the hitters do their DPS while being careful not to exceed his aggro level. Complicating factors are Onyxia's special anti-aggro attacks and CC stuff, plus the need to not pull adds from outside.

DDO's Arraetrikos is IMMUNE to long-term aggro. Unlike most DDO monsters, he does not accumulate hate.

Oh for crying out loud.

The whole POINT of your suggestions is to turn The Pit Fiend's flying about into a mirror image of Onyxia Phase 2. That is THE key consideration when looking at the suggestions of yours I quoted. You have your Pit Fiend flying around in a much larger path shooting attacks at everyone in the raid, forcing them to move around more and expend more resources and allowing them to attack the Pit Fiend in Flight. This is exactly what happens in Phase 2 Onyxia.


It is foolish to look at one encounter which is based on aggro management and another in which aggro management is impossible and then claim they are similar.

It is foolish to misquote and misread peoples' comments when you consider that my critique of your idea was spot on when comparing it to Onyxia Phase 2.


In reality, it's not similar at all.

In MMORPG virtual reality, it's quite similar.


It does not sound like that even minorly.

IMO, your commentary on Onyxia and other commentary on Warcraft raiding shows you have some holes in your grasp of the nuances of that game.

[Snoggy]

I highlighted why so many people automatically go into a more defensive mode before actually reading any of his posts.

Well in all fairness that poster sometimes jumps the gun and doesn't always read the posts that poster quotes and responds to. For instance this one time, I made a post commenting about healers and healing skill. And the poster flamed me for not understanding anything about clerics. Mind you my post didn't use the word cleric in it at all. Not a single time. So, I mean, you have to realize, if that consistently keeps happening when you interact with that person on these forums, you do find yourself at a point where you kind of do the same thing and not actually read what they have to say either.

What's fair is fair, right?

[Serpent]

Oh for crying out loud.

The whole POINT of your suggestions is to turn The Pit Fiend's flying about into a mirror image of Onyxia...

Well as for how I understand Onyxia to work, the OPs suggestion would create a similar aspect in that you have to range the dragon for a 1/3 of his hps to bring him back down as compared to we having the ability to range the Devil when he is flying for that short period of time. So in other words not that much of the same. The Devil changing his flight pattern to a random person just seems to make that 30 secs a little more interesting.

It just seems that you are trolling for a response from the OP instead of actually reading what he wrote. How he wrote it may offend you for some unknown reason but the fact that he took the time and proposed some good questions seems to show his understanding and wanting of improved raids.

[Snoggy]

It just seems that you are trolling for a response from the OP instead of actually reading what he wrote.

It may seem that way. But that's not the case. I looked at his suggestions. I did indeed read them. And my critique of those particular suggestions of his that I quoted (only the part 4 specific ones mind you) ... my critique is that those suggestions don't improve the shroud raid, and tend to make the encounter work more like a warcraft raid; a specific warcraft raid at that.

I, and I bet a few other DDO players, don't find making any DDO encounters more like a warcraft raid particularly appealing.

It's a critique. That's all. It's most certainly NOT trolling.

The poster doesn't offend me at all. He sometimes disappoints me with his canned responses (he has a tendency to tell everyone else that they are wrong or incorrect and just dismiss things outright). But that's certainly not offensive. Just disappointing when taken in context. For instance in one thread that poster says Psionics are a waste of developer time and effort because the game already has spells and psionics work just like spells ... and yet in a different thread suggests a long list of classes to add to the game that he prefers to monks because these classes would just build off of elements that already exist in the game (like Samurai).

I mean, taken in context, it's bad to waste time on psionics because spells do the same thing. But it's ok to waste time on Samurai even though there's already multiple viable tanking classes in the game.

That's just plain old disappointment.

[smatt]

I think you'd be surprised how many pugs exploited phase 2 before the last patch, still do using other tricks (not that important but oh well).

The main exploits come in phase 4 and 5; I was wondering a few weeks back why the number of completion LFMs skyrocketed all of a sudden, well it didn't take me long to realize why. [/qoute]

Yep, and they're exploiting the hell out of it everyday over and over again..... I left a group yesterday because of it.... I'm sure many long time Lhazzaar, as well as Ghallandra people don't like the fact I speak out so much that people are ALLOWED by Turbine to exploit the raids and a few choice quests over and over. But I simply feel it's cheating the game as well as all the non-exploiters for the so called, but mostly self-titled leet players to exploit with no fear. I'd be willing to bet for thsoe not in the know, that they'd be suprised at how many suppossedly respectful players exploit...... Sad... It's not "LEET" it's "Cheat" cheapens everything for the all the people who really complete quests....... Just as with that old colored thing, the new ones are being VERY commonly used :(

[quote]I think with a few smart modifications the very often repeated raid can be made more fun while simultaneously be more of a real challenge for a typical group rather than a boring slugfest which may require some groups expending more resources than they should.


I agree, but it should still be withinthe realm of beign able to be beat by a decent PUG group.

[BLITHELY]

So what u want is for all parties instead of spending a fair amount of resources for completion, when the inevitable bug fixes arrive, u wnat everyone to expend ludicrous amount of resources and fail 90% of the time. Well thought out sir. The Abbott raid is interesting in the way u would like to make the shroud. No ty. Bug and exploit fixes I have no issue with. Making it more interesting as per your suggestions my reply to those would get me banned. Design to the average not the absurd.

[Angelus_dead]

So what u want is for all parties instead of spending a fair amount of resources for completion, when the inevitable bug fixes arrive, u wnat everyone to expend ludicrous amount of resources and fail 90% of the time. Well thought out sir.
What part of "reducing Arraetriko's hitpoints" makes you think the raid would consume more resources?

The only way my suggestions could make the raid more costly is if you count the places were I asked for the removal of an obvious exploit. Guess what? Those exploits will be removed anyhow, no matter what players say. It's only a matter of time.

[Eudimio]

So what u want is for all parties instead of spending a fair amount of resources for completion, when the inevitable bug fixes arrive, u wnat everyone to expend ludicrous amount of resources and fail 90% of the time. Well thought out sir. The Abbott raid is interesting in the way u would like to make the shroud. No ty. Bug and exploit fixes I have no issue with. Making it more interesting as per your suggestions my reply to those would get me banned. Design to the average not the absurd.

90% fail rate on the Abbot? You're joking, right? It's very near 100%. And I'm guessing that it is exactly 100% if you don't cheat.

[Burradin]

It is a game.

All games have bugs/issues, you can buy guides on how to beat them.

Leet Players: Those who can finish a quest in the most efficient manner. They use whatever the game allows for them to accomplish this. They spend more time in the games than the average player. A number of the suggested changes may make it so only these players will be able to complete the Shroud, which is probably opposite of your intentions. This raid has actually brought back PUG raiding, but making it much more difficult will destroy that again. PUG Reaver does not count, because they just want full groups to increase loot odds.

It is pretty simple really, if you don't like the tactics a group is using, then excuse yourself NICELY from group and find another. It would be best to ask before the quest starts so that it can be done amicably. There has been discussions on if Turbine intended this or that. If Turbine finds it to be a design/program flaw, I am sure they will look to correct it.

I can't say there is any quest in the whole game that I could not find improvements to, but I would rather get new content, new classes, new races, guild housing, new etc, than to play the old stuff with a few new minor twists.

[suitepotato]

If you make it as hard as the suggestions contained in this thread, you will need to increase group size from 12 to 36 or 48 easily. You're talking about turning a raid into an all out war. Which is one of the reasons MOST serious pnp dnd dms DON'T use pit fiends and their associated bosses of Hell WITHOUT giving complex rp based outs for the party.

I've been in massive campaigns where the players like generals led armies against devils and demons. I've been in tight small party and intrigue and tricks and deceit stories. DDO is not conducive to these things at all and that's why escalation to a pit fiend is one step from putting an arch devil or demon lord into the game or demigod or even god.

Don't believe me? Here's a simple change that might convince you. Give all the devils the ability to gate in reinforcements. Each reinforcement themselves has the ability to gate more. And those can gate more. You'd essentially have five seconds to nuke any devil that appears or fail by default by virtue of being immediately overwhelmed. If the shroud part one on normal was regularly failed in 30 seconds because the devils grew in number to several hundred and whomped everyone out of existence, you'd change your tune.

Remember, enemy monsters cast by virtue of the code doing it when the program "decides" to. Players need to click mouse or keyboard which takes time and accuracy. Monsters have no mana limit. Players do. Monsters attack by code execution. Players have to click and move. Give them just gating alone, nevermind the insane number of really powerful spells they have in the books, and you're talking about less than sixty seconds to fail.

In DDO, you can't trick one arch devil into conflict with another and sneak away to the treasure room and then hot foot it away for dear life or summon 20,000 paladins and 5,000 clerics to go to war with an enemy that when it wants to can lay waste to whole nations and whose commanders are only just barely afraid of gods.

[FluffyCalico]

"The bug: melee attack collision regions are not moved according to the velocity of the attacker. So, if you are chasing directly behind a monster and attacking into his back, you won't get attack rolls. However, if you got in front of the monster and attacked empty space before he reaches it, you may get an attack roll."

:eek: NOW LAG IS A BUG? :eek:

[gpk]

"The bug: melee attack collision regions are not moved according to the velocity of the attacker. So, if you are chasing directly behind a monster and attacking into his back, you won't get attack rolls. However, if you got in front of the monster and attacked empty space before he reaches it, you may get an attack roll."

:eek: NOW LAG IS A BUG? :eek:

That's not lag, this was a bug introduced with the AI/netcode tweak updates in mid-mod4.

[TechNoFear]

That said, you don't need to change the Devil, just change your tactics. If he picks someone at random, and keeps coming after that person, switch up your teams. Or alternatively, you could split up into 3 teams and whoop the other 3 bosses, then each team can attack the devil when he spawns on that group.

Splitting into multiple groups makes it worse. The devil periodically moves/teleports from group to group, healing himself and the other bosses as he goes.
The more groups -> the greater the time/frequency the devil is moving/teleporting -> the less time you have to hit the devil (as you can not hit the devil as he moves away from you).

I have attempted the Shroud on elite 3 only times (all in PUGs). Each time the Devil has spawned.

Best effort is to prep (reduce to <10% health) the other 3 bosses [easy] and get the devil to ~25% before we ran out of resources. I do not think the devil will be unbeatable (on elite) after the next lvl cap raise but he is very hard ATM.

The devil is made MUCH harder because we can not hit him if he is moving away from us, which IMO is a bug confined to players (as scorpions etc appear to have no trouble hitting my slow characters as they try to sprint across the Vale).

[Angelus_dead]

If you make it as hard as the suggestions contained in this thread, you will need to increase group size from 12 to 36 or 48 easily. You're talking about turning a raid into an all out war. Which is one of the reasons MOST serious pnp dnd dms DON'T use pit fiends and their associated bosses of Hell WITHOUT giving complex rp based outs for the party.
Lol, apparently you are replying to the wrong thread. Apparently you meant to respond to some other board.

PS. Devil gating in D&D works nothing like you think. Devils summoned by another CANNOT use their own summon ability.

[Angelus_dead]

Best effort is to prep (reduce to <10% health) the other 3 bosses [easy] and get the devil to ~25% before we ran out of resources. I do not think the devil will be unbeatable (on elite) after the next lvl cap raise but he is very hard ATM.
It's easy to win that devil on elite right now... IF you use some exploits to make the other bosses easier. Once those errors are fixed, it will be hard.

[TechNoFear]

It's easy to win that devil on elite right now... IF you use some exploits to make the other bosses easier. Once those errors are fixed, it will be hard.

I did not think I had to qualify it as 'without exploits', in which I include the ones mentioned here, even those some dispute are exploits.

[Issip]

All around the shroud raid is by far the best raid DDO has come up with. When I look at the other raids they have created leading up to the shroud I have to say they did a great job making a good fun raid. I could imagine a more perfect shroud raid, but I wouldn't encourage the developers to tinker much with this one as it's actually fun.

Before Mod6 was released I posted a long rant about how all of their raids pretty much suck. Raids and especially raid boss encounters have not been DDO's strong point, but I think they hit much closer to the mark with this one, and I would prefer we encourage them.

For fun let's look at the other Raid boss encounters:
Velah: Charge!!! (unless you're working one of the many exploits that raid has seen through the years) Not a lot of fun after runing Von1-5 for a 30 second fight.
Titan: I couldn't think up, much less program a more boring raid. You bring the crystal, everyone else stand here, now stand here, now stand here...
Queen: My favorite pre-Mod6 raid for sure, but then they cranked up the cleave so bad that no melee can get in range so it's a game of keeping her in the middle while the casters nuke her, and over in 5 minutes on elite.
Reaver: Casters were soloing this so bad they had to take away the warded chest. No wonder a group of 12 sleepwalks through this, and killing the reaver once the switch is pulled is a joke, there are CR12 mobs in the game that are scarier. Great for free loot when you only have <30 mins to play, or if you have been recently lobotomized and still want to play ddo.
Abbot: King of the broken puzzle game. The Abbot is a complete wimp, but since the puzzles are bugged and near impossible it doesn't much matter, this may be the least fun thing I've ever done in DDO, including those horrible tomb quests that no-one ever does unless they are desperate for favor.

The shroud raid is a huge improvement over the raids that existed before it. A few minor adjustments and exploit fixes could help, but I'd consider those very low priority contrasted against other development efforts.

[DasLurch]

In part 5 I'd like to see spawns coming out of the portals like in part 1, portal keepers and all :D

Twoheals = sadist :)

[Angelus_dead]

16. In Phase 4, give Arraetrikos a version of the Summon Devil ability possessed by D&D pit fiends. Each time his hitpoints reach the 75%, 50%, 25%, and 10% thresholds, one of the 4 portals will randomly spawn an orthon/bezerika/barbazue/thaumateurge.
Funny that the Suulomades raid includes a feature similar to this...


90% fail rate on the Abbot? You're joking, right? It's very near 100%. And I'm guessing that it is exactly 100% if you don't cheat.
Wow, been like that for forever huh.

[eyepuppy]

Funny that the Suulomades raid includes a feature similar to this...

90% fail rate on the Abbot? You're joking, right? It's very near 100%. And I'm guessing that it is exactly 100% if you don't cheat.
Wow, been like that for forever huh.

Abbot is beatable if you want to learn HOW to beat him. We normally do it in 2 runs on normal. Might take a few more on elite.

[Angelus_dead]

Abbot is beatable if you want to learn HOW to beat him. We normally do it in 2 runs on normal. Might take a few more on elite.
The key words being "if you don't cheat".