TWF and Cleave

[The_Phenx]

Dev's a little clarification (if possible) on whether this is working as intended or is broken and in need of fixing.

Single weapon and tower shield cleave takes lets say 350 ms to complete the animation and strikes with the main hand weapon.

Two handed weapon and cleave takes approximately 1 sec to complete and the strike obviously is with the one weapon your holding. Moves slower due to the larger weapon and greater weight presumably.

Two weapon cleave takes the same time to complete as two handed (approx 1 sec) and the strike is with the main hand only.
This I dont understand. Its a small weapon doing the cleaving, so in relation is the offhand weapon soo much heavier than a tower sheild (chuckle) that it should slow the strike down THAT much.... or are you supposed to be cleaving with both weapons, in which case the feat is broken.

A little clarification would be a beaut... :D

Thanks...

[Yaga_Nub]

A little clarification would be a beaut... :D

Thanks...

What's "a beaut?"

[Hvymetal]

What's "a beaut?"I was gonna say it's a Cannuk thing but I don;t think he's Canadian :D

[Lorien_the_First_One]

They have said before that the animation timing is based on esthetics and very little else. In other words, the guy who did the original art work designed what he thought was a cool looking cleave and he didn't care how long it took or what that did to balance.

[Missing_Minds]

They have said before that the animation timing is based on esthetics and very little else. In other words, the guy who did the original art work designed what he thought was a cool looking cleave and he didn't care how long it took or what that did to balance.

esthetic... yes, i want my fighter in full plate to look all pansy, ballerina, and SHOW OFF just what attack I'm about to do for a full second before actually doing something. I might as well be considered helpless for the wind up.

Cleave and great cleave should have only one timing for any weapon style.

I've seen women softball and professional bowlers move faster on their "attacks" than our PCs with 2h/2w cleaves.

[The_Phenx]

I was gonna say it's a Cannuk thing but I don;t think he's Canadian :D

Nah not canadian... but i was talking with a canadian I think it rubbed off .... (running home to shower now)

[The_Phenx]

professional bowels

Umm evacuating your bowels is now a sport? Is this on fox :D

And Id be fine with the slowness if i cleaved with both weaps... cmon dev's a lil love here...or at least a firendly "were aware of the problem we will fix it if when we get the time." Im not greedy.

Oh wait yes I am ...

[Missing_Minds]

Umm evacuating your bowels is now a sport? Is this on fox :D


oops.. better fix that.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Umm evacuating your bowels is now a sport? Is this on fox :DI was going to say ESPN5, but Fox works, too. :D

[Turial]

The thing is cleave allows an additional attack in pnp if you drop a creature and only against one within 5 ft.

To represent this as an AOE type melee ability they are only allowing you to strike with your main hand (one attack per mtarget) rather then both weapons (two attacks per target affected).

The speeds, however, should be the same for all combat styles. Sadly animation work seems to costs the most and requires a lot of time so they are unlikely to go back and fix it anytime soon.

[Zuldar]

It's fine being only one attack, cleave really shouldn't be a replacement for whirlwind attack anyway.

[tihocan]

There's something I'm 99% sure of but I'm waiting to be 100% to bug report it:
If you cleave with 1 weapon and no shield, it's slow (on a WF male).
If you cleave with 1 weapon and a shield, it's fast.
How does having a shield make me cleave faster? :confused:

[Missing_Minds]

There's something I'm 99% sure of but I'm waiting to be 100% to bug report it:
If you cleave with 1 weapon and no shield, it's slow (on a WF male).
If you cleave with 1 weapon and a shield, it's fast.
How does having a shield make me cleave faster? :confused:

correct. Having something that generates lots of resistance speeds you up. Go figure.

[Mad_Bombardier]

How does having a shield make me cleave faster? :confused:Favorable winds in the direction of your cleave spin? :D

[The_Phenx]

There's something I'm 99% sure of but I'm waiting to be 100% to bug report it:
If you cleave with 1 weapon and no shield, it's slow (on a WF male).
If you cleave with 1 weapon and a shield, it's fast.
How does having a shield make me cleave faster? :confused:

Correct

1 weapon no sheild slow
1 weapon shield super fast
2 weapons slow and strikes only with main hand.
1 th weapon slow

It's broken I remember why I dumped the feat now... although its really fun when you vorpal a room lol.

[SidBadguy]

Umm evacuating your bowels is now a sport? Is this on fox :D


It's on ESPN 8 "the Ocho"

[negative]

It's fine being only one attack, cleave really shouldn't be a replacement for whirlwind attack anyway.

Doesn't whirlwind only hit with the main hand as well?

[MrWizard]

What's "a beaut?"

why does this make me think of my cousin vinnie?

the two yutes..

what?

what?

what did you say?
what?

the two whats?
what?

did you say yutes?

sorry your honor...the two YOUTHSSS.

[KatanAztar]

Dev's a little clarification (if possible) on whether this is working as intended or is broken and in need of fixing.

Single weapon and tower shield cleave takes lets say 350 ms to complete the animation and strikes with the main hand weapon.

Two handed weapon and cleave takes approximately 1 sec to complete and the strike obviously is with the one weapon your holding. Moves slower due to the larger weapon and greater weight presumably.

Two weapon cleave takes the same time to complete as two handed (approx 1 sec) and the strike is with the main hand only.
This I dont understand. Its a small weapon doing the cleaving, so in relation is the offhand weapon soo much heavier than a tower sheild (chuckle) that it should slow the strike down THAT much.... or are you supposed to be cleaving with both weapons, in which case the feat is broken.

A little clarification would be a beaut... :D

Thanks...


Be thankful you dont play a human male with cleave. Even with sword and board, you cleave much slower than everyone else.

Fix this turbine.

Female human melee > Male human melee (silly, isnt it?)

[Zuldar]

Doesn't whirlwind only hit with the main hand as well?

Correct. The difference is cleave is supposed to be a single attack against a nearby creature after you drop a creature.

Seeing as the correct implementation would likely be difficult to code, the creative implementation they've used will have to do. As such whirlwind attack really needs to be reevaluated. Otherwise, why bother going for whirlwind attack with it's 3 relatively useless prerequisite feats when "cleave" performs the same way with less of a cooldown.

[Emili]

Be thankful you dont play a human male with cleave. Even with sword and board, you cleave much slower than everyone else.

Fix this turbine.

Female human melee > Male human melee (silly, isnt it?)


Because us women are graceful :p




Correct

1 weapon no sheild slow
1 weapon shield super fast
2 weapons slow and strikes only with main hand.
1 th weapon slow

It's broken I remember why I dumped the feat now... although its really fun when you vorpal a room lol.


I bug reported that way back in beta, maybe just after release...

I was just looking at it tonight though, and asking a friend to tell me what he thought... funny thing was he said from his perspective watching me spin cleave, greater cleave and whirlwind, the sword-n-board looked slower then the non-shield or so he claims... while to me the SnB was clearly a lot faster then non-shield, twf or 2hf, So now I'm not quite sure if the perspective matters? Why would there be a difference between his client and mine - as far as I can tell it goes out to the server a few milli-seconds latter.

The largest question is execution within the combat log... registered hit and pickup of the following swings. from what I can see is I can start a cleave even before my whirlwind or greater cleave animation finished... and it registers hits from the second before the animation is into it. Which brings me to the question of what we see vs what really happens?

[Angelus_dead]

Seeing as the correct implementation would likely be difficult to code, the creative implementation they've used will have to do.
It's not a question of difficulty programming it... it's the fact that D&D rules cleave would be worthless in the realtime environment of DDO. D&D fighters defeat monsters with a hugely higher percentage of their hits than DDO fighters do, meaning that DDO fighters must be able to trigger cleave on more than just kills for it to have a similar benefit to character power.


As such whirlwind attack really needs to be reevaluated. Otherwise, why bother going for whirlwind attack with it's 3 relatively useless prerequisite feats when "cleave" performs the same way with less of a cooldown.
The best way to start fixing Whirlwind would be to fix the prereqs so that Mobility and Spring Attack are valuable feats on their own.

[Emili]

It's not a question of difficulty programming it... it's the fact that D&D rules cleave would be worthless in the realtime environment of DDO. D&D fighters defeat monsters with a hugely higher percentage of their hits than DDO fighters do, meaning that DDO fighters must be able to trigger cleave on more than just kills for it to have a similar benefit to character power.


The best way to start fixing Whirlwind would be to fix the prereqs so that Mobility and Spring Attack are valuable feats on their own.


Exactly, Cleave and greater cleave per PNP are based on turn feats... you bring a monster to 0 so you can attack the next. In realtime it has no bering.

SA was a good feat before mod 3 and had gotten worse in mod 4... reason being I think is beacause they slowed down the swinging sequences... prior to that you could actually chase a mob down and attack from behind and actually land the hits. When they modified the attack to prevent twitch fighting and slowed speed of the 1-2 sequences it affected landing the hits from behind as the server thinks the mob is further away thus the blind swings.

It used to be... you could twitch (side-step back and forth) and thus increase the speed of attacking... this of course was frowned upon by players who didn't twitch and of course turbine as it was like having haste without the spell:)... another thing some players would do was the weapon switch click (toolbar keyed the same weapon pressing in unison) while clicking the attack button... it would fire off swings at blinding speeds.

It are these things which they fixed... which put SA at it's almost useless postion. Although it still has it's uses in mobile jump meleeing - which of course helps prevent you from getting hit while meleeing and of course spin flanking.

Mobility of course has no use whatso-ever unless you're completely turtling.