Noob melee Bard

[Varis]

Hey all

Put a bard together I felt would do ok at melee.

16 dwarf bard

16 str
10 dex
18 con
8 int
8 wis
14 cha

skills: the usual... umd, perform, jump, diplo... the rest in "stuff"

feats: 1st-toughness, 3nd-extend, 6rd-toughness, 9th-power attack, 12th-toughness,
15th-toughness

spells: ???? not sure at all. I could really use some input with that. For sure all buff spells, utility and
offensive spells that require no save. (ottos irresitable dance)
I'm not sure anymore what spells stack with what song abilities.
Again, I'll need some help with the spell department



Summary:
I used to play a bard and found that for CC a well timed fascinate will do better then any other spell
I also found that you can't make a top spellcasting bard that is also good at melee so subsituting spell CC
with song CC works enough for me. =)

I'll end up with 438 hp (96bard, 144 con, 16 rage, 20heroic, 10dragon, 30false life, 72 toughness,
50 dwarven toughness) which is probably required having a mediocre AC.

my saves will be pretty average but I'm hoping greater heroism stacks with that new +4 save song.

AC ... well.. 10+13ac+5deflect+3nat.a+7shield umm +4 song, +1 haste, +2chaos guarde...
bleh.. look it will be average... I just didn't see a Bard as a means to get great AC anyways so why
invest in it too much =)


Melee with greataxe (cheating through that level 1 spell masters tough)

attack: 12BAB+10str+9song+1haste+5weapon+2dwarf axe= 39 ... more like 34 with power attack always being on..

damage: 15str+5weapon+8song+10power attack +2dwarf damage= +40 damage
(dunno if +40 will cut it but it sure beats my sorcs melee he he)


so there it is, please lemme know what I can do with spells and if I made a mistake with feats.

Thanks in advance

[EinarMal]

Taking more than one toughness is not really worth it to me. With displacement and using stoneskin or warchanter(which you don't qualify for would be better).

One thing to be aware of you do not have proficiency in greataxes, although you can use the new spell master's touch to use them.

Personally I would swap your feats into something like...

Toughness
WF Slashing (Required for Warchanter)
Power Attack (Required for Warchanter)
Extend
IC Slashing
??? Pretty open here I might take SF UMD to try to get closer to being able to use heal scrolls

The other thing I would do is drop Con to 16, and get strength to 18. I don't see the need for more than 400 hit points on a Bard with all of the defenses like displacement, stoneskin, iron skin chant etc... but that is just me. You should still hit well north of 300 without 18 starting con and the extra toughness feats.

[Westerner]

I agree with Einar that multiple toughness doesn't buy you much. This build cries out for warchanter.

I took similar starting stats on my 14/2 dorfchanter. You might want to play around with dropping cha/con in order to raise str, since combat will be your bread and butter.

On skills... I'd consider diplo part of the "misc" category. Much of the time you actually want aggro.

Consult any battlebard build for spells... Stick to buffs, heals, and occasional multiple target CC. Stay away from single target CC.

[skraus1]

I second what Einer and Western have said. It's very good advice.

I would give dropping some cha and dex to raid str a second thought. A cha of 12 and a dex of 8 would allow a 18 str. This is probably worth it on this build.

[Varis]

thanks for the input, I didn't know I needed WF to qualify for warchanter

[wiglin]

My opinion:

Str: I do not think it is worth 6points to go from 16 to 18. Thinking of the level 20 it may very well be worth taking 2rogue/2fighter from here on out for feats and evasion. With this in mind the extra dex would be worth it. Plus You can still get AC to a point high enough to matter on non-elite content. The difference from 16 to 18 str is 1 attack and 1.5 damage. I started with 16 str, and I do not have any issues hitting in the shroud on elite.

Cha: It is not needed for spells, but UMD. As a bard if you cannot heal scroll no fail.....REROLL Granted as a warchanter you will rely on greensteel for the no fail. Although with 12 Charisma you can still get to a 39 umd pretty easy. I would leave con where it is and use the 4 points from cha into dex, or if you do not want to take force of personality put them into wis and go stalemate on greensteel with +5 to cha skills. With the dwarven saves bonus you will have solid saves.

I would take 1 toughness feat.

Inspire Heroics does not stack with Greater Heroism as they are both a moral bonus. I also just checked it to make sure, but if you were going for AC you still get the +4 dodge bonus.

[skraus1]

Plus You can still get AC to a point high enough to matter on non-elite content.

Ac is generally not worth it for a bard, especially a thfer. Why would you want to devote almost all of your item slots to be missed an extra 10% of the time on normal?




Cha: It is not needed for spells, but UMD. As a bard if you cannot heal scroll no fail.....REROLL .

Completely false. Many good melee bards never use heal scrolls. This is a bit like saying all sorcs must be able to use heal scrolls without fail or they're gimped. It is a useful ability, but it is optional for a melee bard.




Although with 12 Charisma you can still get to a 39 umd pretty easy.
How exactly? 19ranks +4 gh+5 raid item+2 raid item+1 focusing chant= 31, meaning 8 needs to come from cha once you've gotten 2 raid items. Starting with a 14 cha, wear a +6 item, take all 3 cha enhacement and use a +3 tome...and we come to the "easy" +stat 8 bonus.

Since when did 2 raid items, a +3 tome and 12 enhancement points become "easy"?

IMO, this will lead to decent casting/healing bard, but probably is not a relalistic goal for a "melee" bard that doesn't raid constantly. Especially one that states he doesn't want to cast CC.

For a non-CC bard, 14 bard levels are sufficient, so think about taking some other classes.

If you do want evasion like wiglin suggests, look at my Zhaffy build, and start rogue or you will not develop to your full potential.

[Wu_Jen]

19 Ranks @ lvl 16, +4 GH, +2 Command item, +3 Golden Cartouche = 28 UMD
14 Starting CHA +6 CHA Item +3 CHA AP's +1 CHA tome or Cake :) = 24 CHA or +7
28 +7 = 35 without RAID items and you can SF:UMD for +3 so 38 then Respec out later when you have the raid items.

Just a thought.

Edit: Just remembered +1 Luck from Rabbit or +2 from Head....You could hit 39 without RAID gear and 40 with 1 Raid item.

[Delt]

19 Ranks @ lvl 16, +4 GH, +2 Command item, +3 Golden Cartouche = 28 UMD
14 Starting CHA +6 CHA Item +3 CHA AP's +1 CHA tome or Cake :) = 24 CHA or +7
28 +7 = 35 without RAID items and you can SF:UMD for +3 so 38 then Respec out later when you have the raid items.

Just a thought.

Edit: Just remembered +1 Luck from Rabbit or +2 from Head....You could hit 39 without RAID gear and 40 with 1 Raid item.

Command doesn't stack with cartouche or FF gloves, fyi.

19(ranks)+6(shroud item)+5(Titan Gloves)+2 (Luck)+4(GH)+3(SF:UMD) = Pretty much impossible for any character with UMD as a class skill to not hit 40, nevermind a pure bard, regardless of CHA.

Also, I couldn't disagree more with skraus1, Heal scrolls are a vital part of any good bards inventory. If you can afford it, they are unlimited 100+ heal shots....UMD is grossly overpowered in this game, so it's foolish not to abuse it (imo of course... :) ).

[maddmatt70]

I disagree with alot of you regarding umd because I think of this build as more of a tank then a bard. Yes, umd is nice, but as pointed out it is fairly easy to get a char's umd up anyway. How many of you bard's run in there with 400 - 450 ish hit points? The style of play is very different. The more I play battle bards the more I become convinced that hit points is a very underrated thing. There are just going to be some places such as the shroud where you need hit points to tank and if you don't have them your going to do something you are not built to do. I am not suggesting multiple toughness feats at least not yet - this isn't rogue territory where multiple toughness feats are almost necessary, but the 18 con is not a bad idea. I would go with 17 str 18 con 11 cha myself (note: 18 str, 18 con, 8 cha is not out of the question). Get the shroud charisma skills wiz 6 item and you are set.

[Delt]

Leaving out SF:UMD, you can hit 36 UMD (before CHA bonus and APs) on a bard with fairly easy(certain) to obtain equipment. Ok, maybe the Titan Gloves can be a pain, but Command or Cartouche isn't...so if you want to be really picky, subtract an additional 2 or 3 points. That leaves between 7 and 4 UMD skill points to be made up on a Bard between their CHA bonus (+6 item plus optional APs) or even Spellsinger.

I mean, you could realitistically actually start a WF bard a 6 CHA, add a +6 item and a +2 tome, deeply multiclass fighter or barb levels, put the APs up to CHA II and STILL hit 40 UMD (/w Focus chant or spellsinger). That's insane... Why wouldn't a bard want unlimited self/party healing?

I do agree HP is important (maybe not 3 toughness feats important tho :) ), but unlimited assured healing is at least as desirable, if not even more important, imo. I don't think you disagree, but I can't tell for sure.

If Barb's could cast Heal scrolls with little effort, +99% of them would.

As for the OP, my first thought when looking at the build is "why not just multiclass"? A couple levels of Fighter will free up feats and give you some very handy Enhancements. If you want to play it like a tank, might as well max the potential of the role.

[wiglin]

Ac is generally not worth it for a bard, especially a thfer. Why would you want to devote almost all of your item slots to be missed an extra 10% of the time on normal?




Completely false. Many good bards never use heal scrolls. This is a bit like saying all sorcs must be able to use heal scrolls without fail or they're gimped. It is a useful ability, but it is optional for a melee bard.



How exactly? 19ranks +4 gh+5 raid item+2 raid item+1 focusing chant= 31, meaning 8 needs to come from cha once you've gotten 2 raid items. Starting with a 14 cha, wear a +6 item, take all 3 cha enhacement and use a +3 tome...and we come to the "easy" +stat 8 bonus.

Since when did 2 raid items, a +3 tome and 12 enhancement points become "easy"?

IMO, this will lead to decent casting/healing bard, but probably is not a relalistic goal for a "melee" bard that doesn't raid constantly. Especially one that states he doesn't want to cast CC.

For a non-CC bard, 14 bard levels are sufficient, so think about taking some other classes.

If you do want evasion like wiglin suggests, look at my Zhaffy build, and start rogue or you will not develop to your full potential.

We just differ on opinion. There are plenty of classes in this game who deal damage and nothing else.

I agree on the AC once you get to gianthold. Pre-gianthold you can have enough AC to mitigate most hits with a 14dex +6Item. From there the dex increases your reflex save. When going for evasion it is nice have a good reflex save. I am waying that against +1 to hit when you do not miss very often as it is.

A bard can deal damage have tons of hitpoints and have 40 umd. In my opinion you are not living up to your potential without it.

19 Base
5-6 Cha
3 Skill Focus
3 Item
6 Greensteel
4 GH
1 FC
2 Luck (Raid)

That is alot to wear at once, and the luck could take some time to get, so. lets say 19 base + 5Cha +6Greensteel +3Cartouche +4GH =37 Not heal scroll no fail, but solid. This is without spending any enhancements on Cha. You could start with a 12 Cha and use a +2 Cha tome, which at this point any capped character can get. Part of being a battle bard is the ability to be self reliant and heal yourself. Wands by themselves do not cut it when you have 400hps.

A bard will never out damage a raging barbarian with critical rage II, Even dual wielding the ranger gets favored enemies against the mobs that matter the most, so again the rangers wins. Everything a Bard does to get better, makes the party better as well. That is what is so great about a bard.

I like evasion, but not with the current cap. It can wait for me.

[wiglin]

I disagree with alot of you regarding umd because I think of this build as more of a tank then a bard. Yes, umd is nice, but as pointed out it is fairly easy to get a char's umd up anyway. How many of you bard's run in there with 400 - 450 ish hit points? The style of play is very different. The more I play battle bards the more I become convinced that hit points is a very underrated thing. There are just going to be some places such as the shroud where you need hit points to tank and if you don't have them your going to do something you are not built to do. I am not suggesting multiple toughness feats at least not yet - this isn't rogue territory where multiple toughness feats are almost necessary, but the 18 con is not a bad idea. I would go with 17 str 18 con 11 cha myself (note: 18 str, 18 con, 8 cha is not out of the question). Get the shroud charisma skills wiz 6 item and you are set.

You can have 400ish hitpoints and UMD.

Hitpoints have been important since mod4 when we realized that a high enough ac to really matter on elite unless planned for with raid loot was not possible. 400 hitpoints is a good watermark for someone taking damage. It is possible to hit these watermarks and still be able to use heal scrolls.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=140287

This is my new warchanter and it will end up with 390 standing +35temp. I will also have heal scroll no fail, and if I wanted to max my dps I could drop some feats and take 2hf.

[Westerner]

I'm middle-of-the-road when it comes to melee power vs UMD-Heal on my dorfchanter. I think my ability to play both offense and defense, with great buffs either way, makes me a valuable party member.

DPS is my bread and butter, and I do quite well there, critting for 160 using greataxe. I am working on 100% Heal UMD, but haven't gotten there yet. So far at level 15 I have:

18 ranks
6 CHA (14Base + 6Item +2Enh)
3 Cartouche
4 GH
1 Rabbit Gloves
3 SF:UMD
=========
35 Total = 75% heal

+1 Focusing Chant gets me to 80%, but I find that a pain to keep up.

My goal is 100% Heal with a combination of raid loot, crafting (?), and/or my lvl 16 stat point, but I wouldn't call it "easy". Unless there's another bard in the party and we can skillsong each other. :)

[wiglin]

I'm middle-of-the-road when it comes to melee power vs UMD-Heal on my dorfchanter. I think my ability to play both offense and defense, with great buffs either way, makes me a valuable party member.

DPS is my bread and butter, and I do quite well there, critting for 160 using greataxe. I am working on 100% Heal UMD, but haven't gotten there yet. So far at level 15 I have:

18 ranks
6 CHA (14Base + 6Item +2Enh)
3 Cartouche
4 GH
1 Rabbit Gloves
3 SF:UMD
=========
35 Total = 75% heal

+1 Focusing Chant gets me to 80%, but I find that a pain to keep up.

My goal is 100% Heal with a combination of raid loot, crafting (?), and/or my lvl 16 stat point, but I wouldn't call it "easy". Unless there's another bard in the party and we can skillsong each other. :)

It depends on your guild. If you have a guild that helps everyone with greensteel items then getting tier3 goggles for +6 cha skills is not hard. If you are on your own, then yes it is not easy, but once you get them you can drop the gloves and where the googles for 40 umd without FC. You could also drop the cartouche and still have 38 which is reliably enough for heal scrolls. Then if you get lucky and pull the head of good fortune you will be at 40 again.

[aldan]

thanks for the input, I didn't know I needed WF to qualify for warchanter

You'll need power attack as well. Starting 12 Cha for warchanter is plenty to get the high STR needed for melee. Like another said, with displacement on always, you'll do fine.

[skraus1]

A bard can deal damage have tons of hitpoints and have 40 umd. In my opinion you are not living up to your potential without it.

19 Base
5-6 Cha
3 Skill Focus
3 Item
6 Greensteel
4 GH
1 FC
2 Luck (Raid)

That is alot to wear at once, and the luck could take some time to get, so. lets say 19 base + 5Cha +6Greensteel +3Cartouche +4GH =37 Not heal scroll no fail, but solid. This is without spending any enhancements on Cha. You could start with a 12 Cha and use a +2 Cha tome, which at this point any capped character can get. Part of being a battle bard is the ability to be self reliant and heal yourself. Wands by themselves do not cut it when you have 400hps.


Well this is with spending 1 feat, having 1 raid item, and a tier 3 shroud item, and you're still short of your "mandatory" level of umd. I would still not classify this as easy by any stretch. In my experience, pulling back from combat, buffing a little, switching items around and then rolling a heal scroll, even with a 75% chance of success, you would be almost as well off hitting yourself twice with a cure serious and drinking a pot....in the same amount of time.

Would switching around of items be needed? Prolly given that a cha item, umd item(s), and buffs like focusing chant are optional for true battle bards that don't cast CC. Of course, you can wear them all the time, but your losing out on damage mitagation items like resistance cloaks, save items and such. Any switching takes time, time that could have ben used drinking pots and wand whiping.

UMD is wonderful ability, that if you have access to the right items, you would be a fool not to take and use heal scrolls. However, saying every battle bard must be able to use heal scrolls without fail or they should reroll is just wrong, because the vast majority of them do not have these 3+ features you see as mandatory to make good use out of heal scrolls.

Telling a noob that having a all this loot and the sf:umd feat is mandatory, when the vast majority of battle bard builds don't include this, irks me because it gives them a distorted view.

[wiglin]

Well this is with spending 1 feat, having 1 raid item, and a tier 3 shroud item, and you're still short of your "mandatory" level of umd by a good measure. I would still not classify this as easy by any stretch.

UMD is wonderful ability, that if you have access to the right items, you would be a fool not to take and use heal scrolls. However, saying every battle bard must be able to use heal scrolls without fail or they should reroll is just wrong, because the vast majority of them do not have these 3+ features you see as mandatory.

Telling a noob this, when the vast majority of battle bard builds don't include this, irks me because it gives them a distorted view.

Varis is not a noob. In fact he has been playing since launch at least, possibly beta. If I remember correctly he played a 1barb/9bard when the game was first released and was quite successful in soloing with it.

If you don't want umd on your battle bard that is fine. I think it is a waste not too. It is possible to have a good UMD without raid items. 19base +6Cha +3Cartouche +4GH +1FC +3Feat =36 That is easy for a battle bard. Heal Scrolls are reliably enough. Again when posting a build I talk about max goals with the current cap in mind. This includes greensteel items. I didn't say you had to have everything the build needs as soon as hits level 16. These are the goals that you work towards, and build with these goals in mind.

I do not recommend a battle bard for newcomers anyway. It is an expensive build if you are going to be self reliant. If you are not going to be self-reliant just roll a barb and go for max dps.

If someone is truly a noob to the game I do not expect them UMD anything due to the fact they will not have the plat to do so.

As far as most battle bards not having umd, I would disagree. Most I know do. Again this is based on perception and experience. Neither you nor I can prove this as fact.

Bards will not outdamage a barbarian. Bards will not outdamage rangers with the right favored enemies in the shroud. That means if a bard is going to warrant taking up a mellee spot in the party they need to offer more than dps. The dps is good I agree, but it is not the highest and will not be the highest, because everything a bard does to get batter at mellee he gives to the barb and ranger as well increasing their dps.

A bard that does say a little less damage a swing, but can heal scroll no fail is far more valuable to an elite shroud run than one who just goes all dps, just to be outdamaged by the barbarian.

[EinarMal]

Bards will not outdamage a barbarian. Bards will not outdamage rangers with the right favored enemies in the shroud. That means if a bard is going to warrant taking up a mellee spot in the party they need to offer more than dps. The dps is good I agree, but it is not the highest and will not be the highest, because everything a bard does to get batter at mellee he gives to the barb and ranger as well increasing their dps.



This is where your view is a bit off in my opinion. Lets say you have 5-6 spots for melee DPS, what matters is total DPS output not each individual. Invariably the Battle Bard will ADD MORE TOTAL DPS than adding another Barbarian or Ranger. So, "just DPS" is actually better than brining along another Barbarian or Ranger in total party DPS output which is all that matters.

A tank warchanter should not be expected to use heal scrolls anymore than a Barbarian should have to MC Rogue/Bard to UMD scrolls themselves.

Filling all your spots with Rangers/Barbarians and skipping over a Warchanter Battle Bard because they don't have high UMD would be a bad mistake in terms of overall party DPS and killing speed.

[wiglin]

This is where your view is a bit off in my opinion. Lets say you have 5-6 spots for melee DPS, what matters is total DPS output not each individual. Invariably the Battle Bard will ADD MORE TOTAL DPS than adding another Barbarian or Ranger. So, "just DPS" is actually better than brining alone another Barbarian or Ranger in total party DPS output which is all that matters.

Yes I agree, but ask any party leader on an elite shroud run what they would prefer. The warchanter who does a little more damage, but needs someone to heal him, or the one who can keep himself and the clerics alive while they focus on the tanks. Obviously any warchanter is a solid addition to a shroud run, but why settle for just the songs, when a bard can bring so much more.

[EinarMal]

Yes I agree, but ask any party leader on an elite shroud run what they would prefer. The warchanter who does a little more damage, but needs someone to heal him, or the one who can keep himself and the clerics alive while they focus on the tanks. Obviously any warchanter is a solid addition to a shroud run, but why settle for just the songs, when a bard can bring so much more.

UMD is nice there is no question, but it requires some items to get there. So, to say that a build should re-roll, or be excluded from content because they can't use heal scrolls is I think what we are disagreeing with. You don't HAVE to be able to hit those numbers to be a good addition to the group.

Most all Bards that I have ever seen have enough UMD to raise dead, and can heal via wands at the least. They also can haste themselves as well as others, and do many other things beyond what a typical Barbarian or Ranger might add. So there are other things, which you are ignoring, besides being able to UMD heal scrolls.

[wiglin]

UMD is nice there is no question, but it requires some items to get there. So, to say that a build should re-roll, or be excluded from content because they can't use heal scrolls is I think what we are disagreeing with. You don't HAVE to be able to hit those numbers to be a good addition to the group.

Most all Bards that I have ever seen have enough UMD to raise dead, and can heal via wands at the least. They also can haste themselves as well as others, and do many other things beyond what a typical Barbarian or Ranger might add. So there are other things, which you are ignoring, besides being able to UMD heal scrolls.

Again UMDing heal scrolls is a goal that you work towards. Again I said a warchanter is a solid party member because of their songs, but they are not living up to their potential without umd, and when choosing between the one that can or can't umd well the one with a good umd will find a slot first.

The only thing a bard can do in the shroud that a wizard cannot are songs and umd (usually). The only thing that matters in the shroud vs rangers and barbarians are the songs and umd. You will have to tell me about these many other things.

Granted warchanter songs are huge in the shroud. They add considerable dps, but again my point is don't settle for that when you can have more.

[maddmatt70]

Yes I agree, but ask any party leader on an elite shroud run what they would prefer. The warchanter who does a little more damage, but needs someone to heal him, or the one who can keep himself and the clerics alive while they focus on the tanks. Obviously any warchanter is a solid addition to a shroud run, but why settle for just the songs, when a bard can bring so much more.

On an elite shroud run? I thought we were just talking about shroud runs or the like in general. It depends on elite if there are enough healers then I would prefer this build over some warchanter trying to use heal scrolls who isn't built for it.

You know if the Op is building this char with weekly elite shrouds in mind then multiple toughness feats isn't such a bad idea after all. Take power attack, weapon focus, improved crit and 3 toughness feats. Max out dwarven toughness enhance and dwarven con enhance, eat a +2 con tome, get the greensteel three upgrade hit point item from the new raid, +10 hp for gianthold favor, minos helm, greater false item, and con+6 item. The Op could even take 2 fighter levels use those for weapon focus and power attack hence picking up two more toughness feats. The only way that sort of build makes sense is if the OP is running shroud elite twice a week and regardless who knows what the next mod brings i.e. if the OP would be running the shroud as much with the new mod..

[Varis]

Varis is not a noob. In fact he has been playing since launch at least, possibly beta. If I remember correctly he played a 1barb/9bard when the game was first released and was quite successful in soloing with it.

If you don't want umd on your battle bard that is fine. I think it is a waste not too. It is possible to have a good UMD without raid items. 19base +6Cha +3Cartouche +4GH +1FC +3Feat =36 That is easy for a battle bard. Heal Scrolls are reliably enough. Again when posting a build I talk about max goals with the current cap in mind. This includes greensteel items. I didn't say you had to have everything the build needs as soon as hits level 16. These are the goals that you work towards, and build with these goals in mind.

I do not recommend a battle bard for newcomers anyway. It is an expensive build if you are going to be self reliant. If you are not going to be self-reliant just roll a barb and go for max dps.

If someone is truly a noob to the game I do not expect them UMD anything due to the fact they will not have the plat to do so.

As far as most battle bards not having umd, I would disagree. Most I know do. Again this is based on perception and experience. Neither you nor I can prove this as fact.

Bards will not outdamage a barbarian. Bards will not outdamage rangers with the right favored enemies in the shroud. That means if a bard is going to warrant taking up a mellee spot in the party they need to offer more than dps. The dps is good I agree, but it is not the highest and will not be the highest, because everything a bard does to get batter at mellee he gives to the barb and ranger as well increasing their dps.

A bard that does say a little less damage a swing, but can heal scroll no fail is far more valuable to an elite shroud run than one who just goes all dps, just to be outdamaged by the barbarian.

wow... you have a long memory. You're quite correct.

UMD is not a topic for me because I will get it to 40. How hard that is, is irrelevant.


I am a bit of a noob though with bards today (level 10 cap was... a long time ago). That bards can't outdamage barbs and rangers is not breaking news. Separately we perform pretty close, in practice though they end up with our buffs and outperform the bard easily. I'm not looking for extreme dps though.


I envisioned this build to be a great addition to a raid, a statement in a small group and one of the strongest solo builds possible.

Doing vale stuff solo may be asking much but I am convinced that bards have the potential, that it is more a matter of gear and decent play to pull it off.


My alternative would be a paladin/sorc melee build or a melee cleric. I find though that the bard has more and broader potential.

[skraus1]

UMD is nice there is no question, but it requires some items to get there. So, to say that a build should re-roll, or be excluded from content because they can't use heal scrolls is I think what we are disagreeing with. You don't HAVE to be able to hit those numbers to be a good addition to the group.

Most all Bards that I have ever seen have enough UMD to raise dead, and can heal via wands at the least. They also can haste themselves as well as others, and do many other things beyond what a typical Barbarian or Ranger might add. So there are other things, which you are ignoring, besides being able to UMD heal scrolls.


Exactly, my view. Well put.



Bards will not outdamage a barbarian. Bards will not outdamage rangers with the right favored enemies in the shroud. That means if a bard is going to warrant taking up a mellee spot in the party they need to offer more than dps. The dps is good I agree, but it is not the highest and will not be the highest, because everything a bard does to get batter at mellee he gives to the barb and ranger as well increasing their dps.


Unless you're assuming a multi-warchanter or bard shroud run, I don't follow you. Warchanter songs are better than a spellsinger's or virtuoso's. A warchanter 10 has the same damage on their song as a spellsinger 16. Defensive fighters and pallies are typically also allowed in shroud runs, although their dps is typically lower than a fully specced melee focused warchanter.

In my experience, raid leaders prefer a warchanter over any other type of bard simply to get the additional dps (also conferred through the song) because the shroud is just so much of a dps fest.

[wiglin]

Remember I started my post with the words "My Opnion" I never said fact. Everyone has opinions on what they think is worth it or not. I look at bards as the one class that can bring synergy to the party better than another. UMD is such a vital part to elite content. Raise dead was the watermark for bards when the level cap was 10. Heal Scrolls are the in my opinion the watermark now. It is expensive to run shroud 4-5 on elite. Heal scrolls unfortunately are a vital part to this part of the raid. When turbine decides to fix thier game and make ac worth it again, then mabee not, but right now taking damage and healing it is the so called tanking of this game. Which in itself is a poor design. Tanking should be mitigating damage not reducing hitpoints. Thats a whole nother bag of potatoes. Bards regardless of how they are built can reach these crucial watermarks, it may not happen instantly, but I was able to get to heal scroll no fail in less than a couple of weeks of raiding on my warchanter. I still have close to 400 hitpoints, and have 35 to hit on my first swing doing 50-70 each non-crit.

[wiglin]

Exactly, my view. Well put.



Unless you're assuming a multi-warchanter or bard shroud run, I don't follow you. Warchanter songs are better than a spellsinger's or virtuoso's. A warchanter 10 has the same damage on their song as a spellsinger 16. Defensive fighters and pallies are typically also allowed in shroud runs, although their dps is typically lower than a fully specced melee focused warchanter.

In my experience, raid leaders prefer a warchanter over any other type of bard simply to get the additional dps (also conferred through the song) because the shroud is just so much of a dps fest.

I agree with you. I am just comparing the warchanter who can umd heal scrolls vs the one that can't. Since shroud is the current end game that is where I spend most of my time, so I build towards what is most effective in their on elite, and heal scroll usage is included for a bard in my opinion.

[wiglin]

Varis,

I think vale solo will be possible on my stealth warchanter. The Sorc/Paladin combo has lots of potential, but they don't bring the synergy that the bard brings. I had my dwarven battle mage capped before I deleted him in october, the main issue's are keeping divine power clickies going, and the amount of dispelling that goes on now.

[skraus1]

I agree with you. I am just comparing the warchanter who can umd heal scrolls vs the one that can't. Since shroud is the current end game that is where I spend most of my time, so I build towards what is most effective in their on elite, and heal scroll usage is included for a bard in my opinion.

Then I guess we largely we're reacting to your "reroll" and "mandatory" comments. With the right gear all bards can use heal scrolls without fail, even with melee focused warchanters in which cha is a tertiary importance and without sf:umd. This is from the simple fact than you can get a 37 from ranks (19) and items(13) and self buffs (5)alone....before feats or cha bonus is even taken into account. However, it requires a lot of loot.

[wiglin]

Then I guess we largely we're reacting to your "reroll" and "mandatory" comments. With the right gear all bards can use heal scrolls without fail, even with melee focused warchanters in which cha is a tertiary importance and without sf:umd. However, it requires a lot of loot.

I agree it does require some loot. I am in a great guild. We give all our components to one person who then crafts everything for everyone. In the end every guild member gets what they want. Even with skill focus umd it requires some loot which could take time to get. I never meant that you had to walk around with a standing umd of 40, just that to me it is important to be able to hit that watermark as a bard for when it counts, in my opinion you are not fulfilling your potential without this goal. Its like a warforged wizard asking a cleric to heal him, or a paladin asking for a remove curse. Look to your own abilities before expecting someone else to spend resources on you. In the shroud you will take alot of damage, and being able to dish out warchanter dps and keep your self healed is huge in my opinion.

[wiglin]

I just think its great that we can have these discussions. I remember when the forums were flooded with posts about how bards are suppose to be casters, and if you wield a weapon you are gimped... How things change. Kizers CC Bard use to be all the rage, now everyone loves the warchanter buffs. At least until the next mod when everything is vulnerable to fire, then we will be hearing "we need spellsinger for mana savings"...lol j/k <------Sarcasm

[wiglin]

wow... you have a long memory. You're quite correct.

UMD is not a topic for me because I will get it to 40. How hard that is, is irrelevant.


I am a bit of a noob though with bards today (level 10 cap was... a long time ago). That bards can't outdamage barbs and rangers is not breaking news. Separately we perform pretty close, in practice though they end up with our buffs and outperform the bard easily. I'm not looking for extreme dps though.


I envisioned this build to be a great addition to a raid, a statement in a small group and one of the strongest solo builds possible.

Doing vale stuff solo may be asking much but I am convinced that bards have the potential, that it is more a matter of gear and decent play to pull it off.

My alternative would be a paladin/sorc melee build or a melee cleric. I find though that the bard has more and broader potential.


If you want some solo ability look at my stealth warchanter.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=140287

With stealth and fascinate it would be quite possible to solo quests where you can sneak past most of the mobs, and then beat down the boss.

[maddmatt70]

I just think its great that we can have these discussions. I remember when the forums were flooded with posts about how bards are suppose to be casters, and if you wield a weapon you are gimped... How things change. Kizers CC Bard use to be all the rage, now everyone loves the warchanter buffs. At least until the next mod when everything is vulnerable to fire, then we will be hearing "we need spellsinger for mana savings"...lol j/k <------Sarcasm

I am very intrigued by how the devs will implement warchanter II and spellsinger II which it sounds like was/is slated for mod 7. If warchanter is doubled +4 to damage +2 to hit and 10/dr and spellsinger is doubled 20&#37; mana savings and +2 to dc what will this mean for bards in the game and how bards will be welcomed into parties? For a pit fiend type of fight/shroud raid we could see warchanters being that much more desired but for 6 person quests a spellsinger could rule with the caster augmentation as casters tend to dominate the 6 person quests. I think we would hear more and more frequently when we try to join an lfm are you a spellsinger or warchanter..

Another big question is will mass heal and true resurrection be available on scrolls. If it is umd becomes very important again, but as things are now it is very easy to get a high umd with the current raid loot in game. This is actually disappointing because pure sorcerers can fairly easily get to umd without fail heal scrolls which used to be a big advantage bards had over other classes with umd being a class skill and charisma being the primary stat. If they give us those scrolls then hangover my healing bard is going to try to get her umd as high as possible as will other bards, but currently I don't wear a cartouche (I dont have titan gloves) or even have my greensteel charisma skills item upgraded to the third tier because well there is no reason to (the 100 spell points wouldn't hurt).

[Blind_Skwerl]

For my battle bard, UMD was an afterthought. I put points into it every level, but it wasn't the focus of my build. I Got it up to a decent level (38 buffed I think), but honestly I don't UMD stuff much other than the occasional weapon or reconstruct scroll and a few buffs. If the clerics I run with can't handle the healing duties, there's no way I am going to be able to take over with heal scrolls. I'd be better off trying to rez the cleric(s). In the reaver/shroud that's obviously different because of the penalty box.



I am very intrigued by how the devs will implement warchanter II and spellsinger II which it sounds like was/is slated for mod 7.

Can't wait for this one! :)

[CSFurious]

a base chr of 19 should re-roll & that is a fact

that is all


Varis is not a noob. In fact he has been playing since launch at least, possibly beta. If I remember correctly he played a 1barb/9bard when the game was first released and was quite successful in soloing with it.

If you don't want umd on your battle bard that is fine. I think it is a waste not too. It is possible to have a good UMD without raid items. 19base +6Cha +3Cartouche +4GH +1FC +3Feat =36 That is easy for a battle bard. Heal Scrolls are reliably enough. Again when posting a build I talk about max goals with the current cap in mind. This includes greensteel items. I didn't say you had to have everything the build needs as soon as hits level 16. These are the goals that you work towards, and build with these goals in mind.

I do not recommend a battle bard for newcomers anyway. It is an expensive build if you are going to be self reliant. If you are not going to be self-reliant just roll a barb and go for max dps.

If someone is truly a noob to the game I do not expect them UMD anything due to the fact they will not have the plat to do so.

As far as most battle bards not having umd, I would disagree. Most I know do. Again this is based on perception and experience. Neither you nor I can prove this as fact.

Bards will not outdamage a barbarian. Bards will not outdamage rangers with the right favored enemies in the shroud. That means if a bard is going to warrant taking up a mellee spot in the party they need to offer more than dps. The dps is good I agree, but it is not the highest and will not be the highest, because everything a bard does to get batter at mellee he gives to the barb and ranger as well increasing their dps.

A bard that does say a little less damage a swing, but can heal scroll no fail is far more valuable to an elite shroud run than one who just goes all dps, just to be outdamaged by the barbarian.

[Westerner]

19base +6Cha +3Cartouche +4GH +1FC +3Feat =36


a base chr of 19 should re-roll & that is a fact

I think he was talking about ranks.

[markymarksta]

wow... you have a long memory. You're quite correct.

UMD is not a topic for me because I will get it to 40. How hard that is, is irrelevant.


I am a bit of a noob though with bards today (level 10 cap was... a long time ago). That bards can't outdamage barbs and rangers is not breaking news. Separately we perform pretty close, in practice though they end up with our buffs and outperform the bard easily. I'm not looking for extreme dps though.


I envisioned this build to be a great addition to a raid, a statement in a small group and one of the strongest solo builds possible.

Doing vale stuff solo may be asking much but I am convinced that bards have the potential, that it is more a matter of gear and decent play to pull it off.


My alternative would be a paladin/sorc melee build or a melee cleric. I find though that the bard has more and broader potential.

Hi Varis and all the other bard enthusiasts that have contributed,

Thanks for the great thread and the dicussion it has produced. I'm interested because I'm working on my battlebard at the moment.

I have him up to level 7/1 bard/fighter. I'm surprised at the solo ability this character has once he leveled up enough to get displacement and haste. (Maybe my playing ability has improved as well). But I am soloing stuff that I wouldn't attempt on many other classes at his level. I have currently power attack/weapon focus (for warchanter), toughness and force of personality which I ended choosing to help build up my lousy will saves. He has a WIS base of 8.

I wanted him to be a strong solo build (I'm an international player and play off peak so grouping is challenging) so I ended up choosing Force of Personality. Which also saves a slot by not having to have a WIS item. At the moment his will saves against spells are showing up in the combat log as +17, which is pretty nice.

I'm also considering taking extend as my next feat and at level 10 another level of fighter so I can get (if I'm right) an extra feat; IC:slashing. The rest will be bard levels.

Good luck with the build and thanks to everyone's great advice, builds (esp. Wiglin's stealthy warchanter which looks dynamic) and ideas.

Seeyas in Stormreach

[Varis]

it seems that taking a level of fighter takes away 6th level spells but there is not really much to use for a melee bard.
I would probably be alright going 16 bard / 4 fighter eventually.


so.. 15 bard / 1 fighter


feats:
toughness
wf: slashing
power attack
extend
toughness
improved crit: slashing
toughness


aaaand another question. Does that focusing chant 1st level spell stack with the rest?

[Blind_Skwerl]

Yup, it's a "Circumstance bonus". Stack away!

Just wish it would last longer as you level up.

[markymarksta]

Just throwing another idea out there. 14/2 Bard/Fighter should give you 1 extra feat and access to +1 STR from fighter STR Enhancement.

Mmmm, the wonderful possibilities of a bard!

Have fun.

[markymarksta]

I should have added...Taking the lvl of fighter at level 10 should get get you a Base Attack bonus of +8 and therfore access to Improved Crit earlier.

[Blind_Skwerl]

Just throwing another idea out there. 14/2 Bard/Fighter should give you 1 extra feat and access to +1 STR from fighter STR Enhancement.

Mmmm, the wonderful possibilities of a bard!

Have fun.

I thought about this one too. Giving up the the AC song wasn't worth it, IMO. But I would like to get another fighter level in there before 20.

[Westerner]

I should have added...Taking the lvl of fighter at level 10 should get get you a Base Attack bonus of +8 and therfore access to Improved Crit earlier.


Just throwing another idea out there. 14/2 Bard/Fighter should give you 1 extra feat and access to +1 STR from fighter STR Enhancement.
Yup, that's what I did. :)