Better than Quivers?!

[Bloodyfury]

First, I dunno to which Devs this suggestion might be good for (maybe Silthe?), but here we go...

I do like to play range combat in most games (for various reasons useless to state in this post) so this is something I "tested" in many games as this is usually the first thing I try in most games. I went back to LOTRO last week to have some diversity in my gaming experience like many gamers, so i started to play my good old Hunter (a range DPS) and I had a lot of fun.

In DDO, I'm completely sold to repeaters since launch and put massive efforts to get full sets of light & heavy repeaters for my builds. I also tried an unusual build for a "bow ranger" and it happened to be pretty **** good and fun to play. BUT... ammunitions system is a real PITA in DDO!!

We'll never say it enough I think and it became really obvious when I played LOTRO... When I go on an adventure with my LOTRO Hunter, I don't have to bother at all with regular ammunitions! SO FUN! And this is a HUGE part in the fun we can get some this kind of gameplay. To which points do we have to make things looks "like real life"?

I mean, in a MMO (be it in DDO, LOTRO, WoW, or whatever you can think about), do we have to drink stuff regularly or have chance to die from being thirsty?? Do we have to eat regularly or die from starving?? Do we have to go to the bathroom or we stink?? :p

Our characters handle these automatically because they are natural needs, we don't have to bother with any of this. And I fail to see why it should be different with basic ammunitions. For a range toon, his life is highly tied to his ammunitions. For him, this IS a natural need, there's no way he's gonna say to himself: "Cool I've 200 arrows, I should be good to kill 300 kobolds!" :rolleyes: If he didn't had enough ammos, he would simply refuse to go out questing anywhere don't you think? Cuz for him, this is an essential need as much as drinking or eating! And he's gonna make sure everytime he has enough to slay the whole Nine Hells if he has to :D

When people started to talk about quivers a few months ago and that we learned they would work on that, we were all happy, with reasons! :D This will be a great addition for sure.

But will it be enough? I doubt it.
Will this change the range experience more enjoyable? Maybe.
Will this makes range combat more enjoyable? Pretty sure it won't.

Why? Cuz the same pattern will remain unchanged. Quivers will save us some space, yeah, but we'll still have to lose some time, uselessly and regularly, to buy the ammos.

My suggestion for this issue for DDO?

Make it so we can have permanent ammos for regular ammo only! Not for Deneith ammos or any special & magical ammos, only for regular exactly like in LOTRO and many other games. And continue to use the actual systems for the magical/special ones like it is at the moment. You want to use some Deneith ammos? Cool, but you'll have to buy them to use somes. Want to use some slaying arrows? Great, find somes! You don't feel like wasting your time for any kind of special ammos other than the regular stuff cuz you think you're fine the way you are? Great! Enjoy your playtime like you should be able to and don't bother with ammos like most other games! That would make it SO MUCH more enjoyable... No more stupid message "Error: Out of ammo!".... Out of ammo = unlimited regular ammo!


Recently my brother wanted a repeater build like one of mine so I helped him to start it. It was just funny when I had to explain him about range combats in DDO...

Bro - "So how many bolts do I buy?"

Me - "Well you don't really have the choice, you gotta fill up your inventory with the max ammos you can."

Bro - "Uh? Why so?"

Me - "Cuz ammos are used way too fast. If you don't fill your inventory, you're gonna end up with no ammo in the middle of a quest. And you don't want that :D"

Bro - "Ok, I'll full my inventory then." (minus 2-3 free space for stuff, not much more)

Now, keep in mind that this is my bro's 2nd toon only, he doesn't know each quest real good and the game is still kinda new for him in many ways. Then a few minutes later...

Bro - "Well that sucks, now I can't get my stuff from chests to sell them and I won't make any money at all. I'll just buy less bolts to take stuff from the chests next time."

Me - "You could. But then, after each quest you'll have to refull on bolts to be sure you'll have enough and ppl grouping with you are just gonna be ****ed off to have to wait for you after every single quest cuz otherwise you won't have enough ammos to run 2-3 quests in a row..."

Bro - "Ah, true...".

So now, it kinda ruins the experience for a new player like him cuz the game system compells him to play a way he wouldn't want to play normally. As he's not rich at all, he doesn't necessarily understand that loot at low-mid lvl isn't that great and that it's not with THESE stuff he's gonna make a lot of cash. Admit it, for a new player, getting chests after chests of loot you can't grab is lame, no matter how much it's worth... :rolleyes:

People will say: "Yeah, but it's normal, we don't have as much inv space when low level."

True & false. The more we level, the longer it is to kill the mobs, so you end up with more inv space but do need more ammos than ever cuz you're gonna use more than before.

But the most important fact about a change like this would be... improving the fun we can have from range combat. A lot have been made lately (especially CODOG, tx again!) but wasting time over and over and over again for something as basic as regular ammos that doesn't give any bonus at all just isn't right imho... I think LOTRO vision of range combat is simply awesome and much better than DDO and that changing this would simply improved DDO experience. It could only be positive! :cool:

Waiting for comments

[Stormanne]

While this makes absolute since to some degrees, you have to remember that the core rules upon which this game is built include resource management. In a perfect world (online that is) I'm sure the developers would love to make all that "automatic" stuff player required to bring it inline with D&D pen and paper. Resources required for that on the tech end would be massive though...

[Bloodyfury]

While this makes absolute since to some degrees, you have to remember that the core rules upon which this game is built include resource management. In a perfect world (online that is) I'm sure the developers would love to make all that "automatic" stuff player required to bring it inline with D&D pen and paper. Resources required for that on the tech end would be massive though...

True.

But there's so much thing "not in line with the PnP version" to make it more player friendly in a MMO that this argument barely suits any "improvements" to the game at this point.

Honestly, between you and me... in what is it really a good thing that you have to bother about regular ammos in DDO? I mean, these ammos won't even gives you +1 or +2 or +3 bonus, not even masterwork ones, just regular ones. What bad could it cause?

So far, the only impact it has on the game in general is a negative one. Cuz if you think to buy them, it doesn't give you any other advantage other than being able to play your toon the way he should be played. It'll simply makes you lose some playtime on a regular basis and is kinda a bit too much like in real life imho, in a way where you must CONSTANTLY think about it otherwise you're sc*****! Definitely not the feeling a MMO should gives to any player...

However, what happens if someone didn't realize he was soon gonna be short on ammos? You run out in the middle of a quest.

Outcomes:

1. You then are of no help to the party in this situation.
2. The guy might have to recall and lose some XP to get back in just to buy ammos.
3. Stays in the quest and be somehow less useful for the rest of the quest as he's build mainly for range. (No silly arguments about wpn finesse and carrying melee wpns please lol Everyone knows that! Keep in mind the toon isn't build for melee but range! How often do you see a melee start to range cuz his melee stuff is no longer usable?? Yeah... :rolleyes:)
4. People surely won't appreciate to have to wait for this guy. That's where comments like "range sucks" are kinda hard to refute :p
5. Probly many more things could be add but it is useless as the disadvantages list is already way bigger (4) than the advantages one (0) :o

As for the tech aspect of something like this, I don't think it would be that hard to implement (hope I'm right!)

When a bow is equipped, ammo slot automatically becomes a stack of 100 regular arrows 100% returning. When equipping a crossbow (repeater or regular), ammo slot automatically becomes a stack of 100 regular bolts 100% returning.

Simply ANY stacks of ammos equipped would then overwrites these 100% returning regular stacks. Once "out of ammo", 100% returning regular stacks are createdf and back on. As simple as it can be...

[herzkos]

as a repeater user, I say don't change it.
yes I have run into issues with having the full inventory
message pop up. when i get that message, and there is
something i want in the chest, i simply open up the inventory
screen and dump my partially used stack of bolts. Then reload
with a full set and click the item/items in the chest I want.
In long dungeons, with a rptr, i generally go through bolts fast enough
that i always have 3 or 4 empty slots. now that i have enough D favor
on my rptr build, I only carry about 1000 sturdy bolts.

the only problem is, you can't be a rptr user at this time and be
a pack-rat. you have to sell the stuff you get, or put it in the bank.
otherwise, you will run out of inventory space or bolts.

/sarcasm on, ooh, and while we're at it, lets give all casters unlimited
spell components for the same reasons listed as infinite bolts/arrows

[Gorgarr]

I guess DDO does not think that a ranger is smart enough to swap ammo whne he changes bow types. Anyone else notice this. When i go from my Great X bow to my composite longbow the ammo does not change. If you ask me this is STUPID. I pretty sure if I were hunting with a crossbow and then picked up my longbow I would not try to use a BOLT instead of an arrow.

[Lifespawn]

as a repeater user, I say don't change it.
yes I have run into issues with having the full inventory
message pop up. when i get that message, and there is
something i want in the chest, i simply open up the inventory
screen and dump my partially used stack of bolts. Then reload
with a full set and click the item/items in the chest I want.
In long dungeons, with a rptr, i generally go through bolts fast enough
that i always have 3 or 4 empty slots. now that i have enough D favor
on my rptr build, I only carry about 1000 sturdy bolts.

the only problem is, you can't be a rptr user at this time and be
a pack-rat. you have to sell the stuff you get, or put it in the bank.
otherwise, you will run out of inventory space or bolts.

/sarcasm on, ooh, and while we're at it, lets give all casters unlimited
spell components for the same reasons listed as infinite bolts/arrows

this snarky remark just makes you look stupid as there is no way to go through 4000 spell components in even a week of playing while you can do 4000 bolts or arrows in 1 day atleast when being an arse try to make sure your foot doesn't end up in your mouth.


Set 100% returning regualr arrows is a great idea and would not invalidate anything like the arcane archer or house d arrows it would just ease the pain of questing.

[Bloodyfury]

Btw Herzkos, you kinda missed the whole point of the thread, might want to read again. Sure I'm talking about inv space as it was the major argument to bring quivers in the game soon. But my suggestion is mainly toward the fact that the game compells us to REGULARLY restock on ammos at a pace that is incompatible with enjoyment. And that this is the only type of play in the game that it bothers us that much and that often.

Fyi Herzkos, for a "real" repeater build... I can buy around 30-40 stacks of +3 Sturdy House D bolts and if I play only that toon, I'll have to refill after a few hours (like 3-4 hours max). However on my pure sorc, I don't even remember the last time I bought components... about once per 3-4 months?

The suggestion isn't unbalancing anything in the game, simply preventing players from losing REAL TIME uselessly and regularly on something that only allows us to play a toon, the way it should be...

Edit: Ok I was a bit expeditive, my apologies to Herzkos... :o

[Juni]

There was a suggestion that I made a long while back before there was talk of quivers.

There is one thing that would help out range combat alot

Make arrows/bolts stack in sets of 500 instead of 100 this would allow for more inventory space for looting or carry other needed items.

Arrows/bolts shouldn't be unlimited but there would be one other thing that could help allowing the ranged combat users to attempt to loot arrows/bolts from the bodies of monsters they have fired on or have the arrows/bolts drop to the ground after the monsters die.

But I personally like the idea of arrows/bolts stacking in groups of 500.

[BlueLightBandit]

Hello Horse... sorry to hear that you're dead, but I'm gonna come over in a few minutes and beat you up... just thought you'd like to know.

There's a whole thread about this with Codogs name on it. Might want to look for it.

[herzkos]

[/I][/B]

this snarky remark just makes you look stupid as there is no way to go through 4000 spell components in even a week of playing while you can do 4000 bolts or arrows in 1 day atleast when being an arse try to make sure your foot doesn't end up in your mouth.


Set 100% returning regualr arrows is a great idea and would not invalidate anything like the arcane archer or house d arrows it would just ease the pain of questing.


Any reason for the personal attack? thanks for calling me stupid and an arse. Just because you disagree with a statement, doesn't
give you the right to insult people.
However, if you take the time to examine the OP's point (about running to buy stuff and making the party wait, or recalling out of
a quest and making people wait or even just wasting time by going to buy stuff) the statement (though admittedly snarky) still holds.
Have a nice day, and please try to be civil in disagreement :)

/snip

When accusing someone of doing something, please try to not do exactly what you're accusing them of.

/snip(irrelevant to thread)/
I could use that many bolts (30-40) stacks in 3-4 hours if I were soloing
and kiting but thats about it. Also, at the rate you're using bolts (10 stacks an hour . . . your math not mine) It's not all that
outrageous to swing by house D and buy some more after 4 hours! Or every hour if you only have 10 stacks like me.
/snip (irrelevant to thread)/

p.s. I like the idea of stacks of 500.

[MysticTheurge]

I like this idea.

There's no reason not to allow people to have automatic "arrows" or "bolts."

I mean, you're not even talking masterwork here, right. All it would do is give people something to fall back on if they run out of ammo mid-quest. (Or, I guess, it would allow people to decide whether they want to bother with arrows at all.)

Actually managing your ammunition would give better results (because you can get magical arrows), but you wouldn't have to if you were willing to accept the nonmagical arrows.

[roadkill525]

I came here from lotro and I gotta say the requirement for arrows and bolts is one of the reasons I like this game so much. I'm tired of MMO's being made to cater to the so called casual players. I'm a casual player, I like to group, I like when MMO's take the time to add things like ammo to the game. the more you take out the shallower the game gets, lotro is a huge and very pretty game, but its booring. once ya wore away the newness of it theres really no reason to pay a monthly fee to get the same experiance ya can get from one of the single player games.

quivers are a good idea, let us carry more with out useing up so many slots. I think the game needs componit kits and potion bags too. but if this game did away with ammo completly I might have to go looking for a game to call home again. keeping track of ammo and running out in the middle of a dungeon is part of what makes the game fun. I mean if ya get rid of arrows why should casters need items to carry around stuff to cast there spells. and why should anyone have to carry around potions, they are slowing things down and clogin up my invatory too, nevermind the fact they cost an arm and a leg. why not come up with away that I don need to buy potions anymore I just get an unlimited number of free spells.

once you start removing things to make the game easier, you end up with a game like lotro. its a pretty game and seams slot of people like paying to have everything handed to them. but I enjoy ddo the way it is.

[geoffhanna]

Quivers
Stacks of 500 ammo (or 1000)
Automatic standard arrows/bolts

I vote yes on all three.

p.s. Arcane Archer sort of gives you the third option, if you build your character that way, and use bows.... uhhh nevermind guess that's not really the same at all is it? I do like it on my ranger tho :)

[Razvan]

I like this idea.

There's no reason not to allow people to have automatic "arrows" or "bolts."

I mean, you're not even talking masterwork here, right. All it would do is give people something to fall back on if they run out of ammo mid-quest. (Or, I guess, it would allow people to decide whether they want to bother with arrows at all.)

Actually managing your ammunition would give better results (because you can get magical arrows), but you wouldn't have to if you were willing to accept the nonmagical arrows.

I agree with this idea if it were to be implemented right: First, I DO NOT like the idea of "phantom" arrow, when, like in so many games (including MMOs), your character can pull arrows out of his or her arse and shoot them...that is stupid...it looks stupid, it feels stupid...just like wathcing "The Highlander" series and seeing those immortals pull their swords from god knows where, hinting at the fact that they were carrying with them all the time.

So, rather than making this stupid, implement a low level quest (similar to the one with the dragon marks) which every character can do, and the reward for it would be on 100% BOUND returning arrow (no +1, no anything on it...not even Masterwork just like MT said), with the option of getting a new one if you loose this one, or destroy it or it magically disappears (bugs anyone?)...just like the silver flame trinket.

I would go with that...but again, please...NO PHANTOM ARROWS!

[Missing_Minds]

I've played all the styles of range out there. Bag space was an annoyance at best, and groups that didn't wait a bit to let me pick up some amo inbetween long sets of quests are just annoying pugs.

It is really up to you to restock when you need to, not find a group, then restock.

Even on my repeater builds, I found 1500 bolts more than enough, even on something like waterworks. Graymoon.. emm... maybe, Co6, forget it. Had to restock.

If you have to have that many bolts just to survive one quest you were making it sound, do you EVER keep your finger off the trigger finger or do you just love to annoy the party kiting everything around? Kiting everything is about the only thing I can think of as to why you'd run out so darn fast to be the reason why you'd have to loose so much bag space that you are complaining about.

[TFPAQ]

... But not the personal attacks.

Make stacks of 1000, fine. We know that othe items can be stacked to 1000. Plenty of room then.

"Normal" returning arrows? Sure.... make the game more enjoyable for some players, I'm all for it. The more players the longer the game exists.

Quiver? Fine.


- But I would guess that the devs could drop in a stacking change virtually undetectably without a bunch of problems. If not, do some of u remember how our returners would "add up"? lol

[Emili]

I actually prefer the larger stacking numbers others suggest.


I've played all the styles of range out there. Bag space was an annoyance at best, and groups that didn't wait a bit to let me pick up some amo inbetween long sets of quests are just annoying pugs.

It is really up to you to restock when you need to, not find a group, then restock.

Even on my repeater builds, I found 1500 bolts more than enough, even on something like waterworks. Graymoon.. emm... maybe, Co6, forget it. Had to restock.

If you have to have that many bolts just to survive one quest you were making it sound, do you EVER keep your finger off the trigger finger or do you just love to annoy the party kiting everything around? Kiting everything is about the only thing I can think of as to why you'd run out so darn fast to be the reason why you'd have to loose so much bag space that you are complaining about.

While I probably should not be soloing this at level 6... I do remember running out of arrows in greymoon part 4 on elite, I was level 6 at the time on my ranged base ranger... I brought along 1500 +3 arrows with me prior to entry, however the scorpians in greymoon were/are the true boss of that dungeon, taking no less than 1200 arrows for a level 6 ranger to eliminate. Mind you a level 6 soloing greymoon parts 3 and 4 I supose is a tad off what the dev's and others would agree with... I did so in order to aquire her house D favor 75% returning... I did so because I was fed up with greymoon and trying to build and hold a party's attention long enough to get my bloody ranger through to elite Co6 after days of discontent of rerunning greymoon parts 1-3 over to have people drop and new people come in to start over, and over and over... What's really ridiculas is I did this twice ... once when Ambyre was a drow ranged ranger, and then again after the enhancemnt system opened up and I rerolled her from cap into an elf ranged ranger.

Here is what I do about ammo anymore... I run to house D stock up on 1000-2000 +3 sturdies and put them all in the bank - requires bank space of course... then I restock her again with +3 sturdies... that way I'm not running from necropolis, GH or meridia as often inbetween quests. I can run to the bank should I feel I'm getting low. Typically I only carry about 500-700 arrows on Ambyre... the difference here is that 500-700 75% returning is equal to 875-1225 non-returning ammo.

Another option which although related goes outside the questing aspect... which is more common in DnD is to actually fletch - but that would involve crafting and taking the time to do so... which also possibly leads to another source of income outside the quests - of which am not sure the devs wish to go there... It is another aspect of DnD however.

[Hambo]

I also like the idea of larger stacks of arrows/bolts.

I like the idea of quivers as well.

What I would like to see is the ability to put ammunition on the quickbar... IE sturdy arrows in one slot, +2 frost arrows in the next, etc. In addition, I'd like to change the ammo type by clicking the quickbar, and have autoreloads limited to only the identical type. I for one am tired of autoreloading ammo based on inventory position rather than ammo type, particularly if I'm using, say, a stack of Deneith sturdy arrows that finally runs out and to be reloaded with Masterwork arrows picked up in a chest somewhere. When THEY run out I get the "Out of Ammo" message even though I still have over a thousand Deneith arrows in my pack! This would also prevent wasting "enhanced" ammo on the wrong targets without realizing it.

As far as normal ammo taking up a lot of space, I can easily toss a 1gp stack of arrows to get an item I can sell for 25gp and buy a new stack for 1gp... Net gain: 24gp.

[FluffyDucky]

Quivers
Stacks of 500 ammo (or 1000)
Automatic standard arrows/bolts

I vote yes on all three.



I add my yes vote for all three however stacks of 1000 arrows would greatly reduce the need for unlimited standard ammo.

I also see no big deal with getting rid of standard spell components. If there were smaller stacks and every spell had it's own unique and expensive component it would defiantly change game play and make resource management more 'interesting' for casters but with the current system they may as well be unlimited for all the effect they have. Once a week spending a few gold to buy a 50 lb bag of sand or the jumbo bag of pork rinds has little to no effect and would not be missed (by me) if removed.

Ammo stacking to 1000 would put arrows in the same category as spell components. I think this may be the best solution to satisfy the OP and people like herzkos who like the 'realism' of buying sand so they can throw the jump, grease, or cold ray spells.

[oronisi]

Without having to revamp their ranged ammunition system, all the devs need to do is add a couple new items to the loot table:

+[1,2,3,4,5] [Silver/Adamantine/whatever] Returning [Arrow/Bolt]

None of this 75% returning BS.

[Emili]

Without having to revamp their ranged ammunition system, all the devs need to do is add a couple new items to the loot table:

+[1,2,3,4,5] [Silver/Adamantine/whatever] Returning [Arrow/Bolt]

None of this 75% returning BS.


Except this infringes upon a whole enhancement line of a mimic'd (yet underpowered) PrC they just put in;)



Granted I haven't tried this in a while, but I could have sworn that:

1) You can put ammo on your toolbars and quickly switch ammos by pressing the toolbar buttons.
2) Your ammo does auto-reload giving preference to what you just had equipped, then by location in your inventory if similar ammo can't be found.


Yes it works this way ... unless I think the ammo is mixed locked/unlocked down now.

[oronisi]

I also like the idea of larger stacks of arrows/bolts.

I like the idea of quivers as well.

What I would like to see is the ability to put ammunition on the quickbar... IE sturdy arrows in one slot, +2 frost arrows in the next, etc. In addition, I'd like to change the ammo type by clicking the quickbar, and have autoreloads limited to only the identical type. I for one am tired of autoreloading ammo based on inventory position rather than ammo type, particularly if I'm using, say, a stack of Deneith sturdy arrows that finally runs out and to be reloaded with Masterwork arrows picked up in a chest somewhere. When THEY run out I get the "Out of Ammo" message even though I still have over a thousand Deneith arrows in my pack! This would also prevent wasting "enhanced" ammo on the wrong targets without realizing it.

As far as normal ammo taking up a lot of space, I can easily toss a 1gp stack of arrows to get an item I can sell for 25gp and buy a new stack for 1gp... Net gain: 24gp.

Granted I haven't tried this in a while, but I could have sworn that:

1) You can put ammo on your toolbars and quickly switch ammos by pressing the toolbar buttons.
2) Your ammo does auto-reload giving preference to what you just had equipped, then by location in your inventory if similar ammo can't be found.

[CaptKurt]

I am in favor of mundane ammo being unlimited. Managing mundane ammo add NOTHING to the game. if you want ammo management, then give us more drops of special ammo...make some non-magical, but that adds stuns, damage over time, more precision, etc. Make some that are blunt and slashing dmg types. If you want ammo management, make a point to do. Right now it is just a time sink.

Mundane ammo: make it automatic

Add specialized non-magical ammo to make ammo management worth doing if you wish.

Some suggestions:

Standard Arrows: as they are now, Piercing dmg
Precise: longer range, give them an effect like Precision...still Piercing dmg
Slashing: either a shorter range or a to hit penalty, give them damage over time effect, Slashing dmg
Blunt: either a shorter range or a to hit penalty, give them chance for a Stun, Blunt dmg
etc....

[roadkill525]

well I've seen blunt arrows so I think it would be a good addition to the game, but not sure how ya can get an arrow to slash, even broadhead arrows I hunt with are just made to peirce better. though I could see arrows like that haveing an extra bleed effect on em.

I think arrows should stack to 500, but not being able to pull arrows out of yer rear is one of the reasons I like this game.

[CaptKurt]

well I've seen blunt arrows so I think it would be a good addition to the game, but not sure how ya can get an arrow to slash, even broadhead arrows I hunt with are just made to pierce better. though I could see arrows like that haveing an extra bleed effect on em.

I would argue that the point (no pun intended) of the broadhead is not in fact to pierce, it is to slash open the wound specifically to cause bleeding.

But in any case, lets just assume that they have some longer head and are aimed to glance along the body rather than penetrate, to clip tendons, or slice the jugular, or whatever.

The main point is simply to add additional damage types to the non-magical arrows and give you a reason to do ammo management.

[roadkill525]

eh they make a better hole but I think broadheads are made that way to go deeper and cause more bleeding, I'd still think of that aspiercing, but I had not thought of glancing blows, do the - to hit to make for the fact ya aiming for the edge of the body not the center and ya could get some really realy nasty cuts outta a broadhead.

but I pisctue useing a broadhead on a zombie that ya saposta use slashing on, and it not doing much more dammage then a piercing arrow, but ya right it would cause more, specialy if aimed right.

[Razvan]

Ok, I'm back to play "devil's advocate"...

Why not 100% returning arrows?

Simple: Casters have mana, when they're out they're out...(nevermind pots and such)
Melees have weapons, that, given enough time, will break...
But give someone 100% returning arrow or bolt and they have limitless battle supplies...

Now I think most of us have been in that one quest, wehn all else fails, everyone dies or is about too and your ranger finds a spot from where he can range the final boss without getting hurt or drawing aggro...Now with limitless supplies it's just a matter of time before victory, isn't it?

Anyway, I think for the sake of balance and such bigger stacks and quivers would suffice...stacks of 500 and quivers would be enough...

100% returning would be, in my opinion, too powerful!

[Razvan]

I am in favor of mundane ammo being unlimited. Managing mundane ammo add NOTHING to the game. if you want ammo management, then give us more drops of special ammo...make some non-magical, but that adds stuns, damage over time, more precision, etc. Make some that are blunt and slashing dmg types. If you want ammo management, make a point to do. Right now it is just a time sink.

Mundane ammo: make it automatic

Add specialized non-magical ammo to make ammo management worth doing if you wish.

Some suggestions:

Standard Arrows: as they are now, Piercing dmg
Precise: longer range, give them an effect like Precision...still Piercing dmg
Slashing: either a shorter range or a to hit penalty, give them damage over time effect, Slashing dmg
Blunt: either a shorter range or a to hit penalty, give them chance for a Stun, Blunt dmg
etc....

I personally disagree with more types of damage comig from arrows...let's keep some of the PnP rules sacred, shall we?

I hope that blunt and slashing arrows come with Age of Conan and that everyone will be happy with that because I don't want to see those in DDO.

Otherwise I would like to see piercing and blunt Dwarven Axes as well...right? (that's silly, I know...I hope I don't ever see something like that, but these days, if enough people complain....)

[roadkill525]

I personally disagree with more types of damage comig from arrows...let's keep some of the PnP rules sacred, shall we?

I hope that blunt and slashing arrows come with Age of Conan and that everyone will be happy with that because I don't want to see those in DDO.

Otherwise I would like to see piercing and blunt Dwarven Axes as well...right? (that's silly, I know...I hope I don't ever see something like that, but these days, if enough people complain....)

we had blunt arrows in the PnP session I played a few years ago. then again that world was heavy undead based and with armys of skellys attacking towns and all the people figured out if they made arrows and bolts with out points they were more likely to break abone.

then again they also had that rock launcher crossbow thing that the low folk used back in the day too. those were used more offen then the arrows or the bolts.

[oronisi]

Ok, I'm back to play "devil's advocate"...

Why not 100% returning arrows?

Simple: Casters have mana, when they're out they're out...(nevermind pots and such)
Melees have weapons, that, given enough time, will break...
But give someone 100% returning arrow or bolt and they have limitless battle supplies...

Now I think most of us have been in that one quest, wehn all else fails, everyone dies or is about too and your ranger finds a spot from where he can range the final boss without getting hurt or drawing aggro...Now with limitless supplies it's just a matter of time before victory, isn't it?

Anyway, I think for the sake of balance and such bigger stacks and quivers would suffice...stacks of 500 and quivers would be enough...

100% returning would be, in my opinion, too powerful!


Seeing as returning weapons should be subject to normal weapon wear and tear (they are thrown or launched at the enemy, strike, then fly back like a boomarang), why not just make the returners damageable like melee weapons? Makes sense to me and removes all your arguement for why they are overpowered.

[Razvan]

Seeing as returning weapons should be subject to normal weapon wear and tear (they are thrown or launched at the enemy, strike, then fly back like a boomarang), why not just make the returners damageable like melee weapons? Makes sense to me and removes all your arguement for why they are overpowered.


If they are damageable then I agree completly...although, you have to take into consideration that a returning arrow won't match a maul in hardness and durability, so there might be complaints about that one...

[FluffyDucky]

Ok, I'm back to play "devil's advocate"...

Why not 100% returning arrows?

Simple: Casters have mana, when they're out they're out...(nevermind pots and such)
Melees have weapons, that, given enough time, will break...
But give someone 100% returning arrow or bolt and they have limitless battle supplies...

Now I think most of us have been in that one quest, wehn all else fails, everyone dies or is about too and your ranger finds a spot from where he can range the final boss without getting hurt or drawing aggro...Now with limitless supplies it's just a matter of time before victory, isn't it?

Anyway, I think for the sake of balance and such bigger stacks and quivers would suffice...stacks of 500 and quivers would be enough...

100% returning would be, in my opinion, too powerful!

100% returning weapons already exist. You can do the same thing with a returning ax, dagger, or dart.

[Elthbert]

First, I dunno to which Devs this suggestion might be good for (maybe Silthe?), but here we go...

I do like to play range combat in most games (for various reasons useless to state in this post) so this is something I "tested" in many games as this is usually the first thing I try in most games. I went back to LOTRO last week to have some diversity in my gaming experience like many gamers, so i started to play my good old Hunter (a range DPS) and I had a lot of fun.

In DDO, I'm completely sold to repeaters since launch and put massive efforts to get full sets of light & heavy repeaters for my builds. I also tried an unusual build for a "bow ranger" and it happened to be pretty **** good and fun to play. BUT... ammunitions system is a real PITA in DDO!!

We'll never say it enough I think and it became really obvious when I played LOTRO... When I go on an adventure with my LOTRO Hunter, I don't have to bother at all with regular ammunitions! SO FUN! And this is a HUGE part in the fun we can get some this kind of gameplay. To which points do we have to make things looks "like real life"?

I mean, in a MMO (be it in DDO, LOTRO, WoW, or whatever you can think about), do we have to drink stuff regularly or have chance to die from being thirsty?? Do we have to eat regularly or die from starving?? Do we have to go to the bathroom or we stink?? :p

Our characters handle these automatically because they are natural needs, we don't have to bother with any of this. And I fail to see why it should be different with basic ammunitions. For a range toon, his life is highly tied to his ammunitions. For him, this IS a natural need, there's no way he's gonna say to himself: "Cool I've 200 arrows, I should be good to kill 300 kobolds!" :rolleyes: If he didn't had enough ammos, he would simply refuse to go out questing anywhere don't you think? Cuz for him, this is an essential need as much as drinking or eating! And he's gonna make sure everytime he has enough to slay the whole Nine Hells if he has to :D

When people started to talk about quivers a few months ago and that we learned they would work on that, we were all happy, with reasons! :D This will be a great addition for sure.

But will it be enough? I doubt it.
Will this change the range experience more enjoyable? Maybe.
Will this makes range combat more enjoyable? Pretty sure it won't.

Why? Cuz the same pattern will remain unchanged. Quivers will save us some space, yeah, but we'll still have to lose some time, uselessly and regularly, to buy the ammos.

My suggestion for this issue for DDO?

Make it so we can have permanent ammos for regular ammo only! Not for Deneith ammos or any special & magical ammos, only for regular exactly like in LOTRO and many other games. And continue to use the actual systems for the magical/special ones like it is at the moment. You want to use some Deneith ammos? Cool, but you'll have to buy them to use somes. Want to use some slaying arrows? Great, find somes! You don't feel like wasting your time for any kind of special ammos other than the regular stuff cuz you think you're fine the way you are? Great! Enjoy your playtime like you should be able to and don't bother with ammos like most other games! That would make it SO MUCH more enjoyable... No more stupid message "Error: Out of ammo!".... Out of ammo = unlimited regular ammo!


Recently my brother wanted a repeater build like one of mine so I helped him to start it. It was just funny when I had to explain him about range combats in DDO...

Bro - "So how many bolts do I buy?"

Me - "Well you don't really have the choice, you gotta fill up your inventory with the max ammos you can."

Bro - "Uh? Why so?"

Me - "Cuz ammos are used way too fast. If you don't fill your inventory, you're gonna end up with no ammo in the middle of a quest. And you don't want that :D"

Bro - "Ok, I'll full my inventory then." (minus 2-3 free space for stuff, not much more)

Now, keep in mind that this is my bro's 2nd toon only, he doesn't know each quest real good and the game is still kinda new for him in many ways. Then a few minutes later...

Bro - "Well that sucks, now I can't get my stuff from chests to sell them and I won't make any money at all. I'll just buy less bolts to take stuff from the chests next time."

Me - "You could. But then, after each quest you'll have to refull on bolts to be sure you'll have enough and ppl grouping with you are just gonna be ****ed off to have to wait for you after every single quest cuz otherwise you won't have enough ammos to run 2-3 quests in a row..."

Bro - "Ah, true...".

So now, it kinda ruins the experience for a new player like him cuz the game system compells him to play a way he wouldn't want to play normally. As he's not rich at all, he doesn't necessarily understand that loot at low-mid lvl isn't that great and that it's not with THESE stuff he's gonna make a lot of cash. Admit it, for a new player, getting chests after chests of loot you can't grab is lame, no matter how much it's worth... :rolleyes:

People will say: "Yeah, but it's normal, we don't have as much inv space when low level."

True & false. The more we level, the longer it is to kill the mobs, so you end up with more inv space but do need more ammos than ever cuz you're gonna use more than before.

But the most important fact about a change like this would be... improving the fun we can have from range combat. A lot have been made lately (especially CODOG, tx again!) but wasting time over and over and over again for something as basic as regular ammos that doesn't give any bonus at all just isn't right imho... I think LOTRO vision of range combat is simply awesome and much better than DDO and that changing this would simply improved DDO experience. It could only be positive! :cool:

Waiting for comments

/No sign

The game already allows you to carry hundreds of pounds of arrows, I think unliomited arrows would be stupid and would greatly reduce my enjoyment of the game.

[roadkill525]

If they are damageable then I agree completly...although, you have to take into consideration that a returning arrow won't match a maul in hardness and durability, so there might be complaints about that one...

aye I think I remember something a rule saying if ya rolled a search high enough you could recover 1/3 of the arrows you shot, the rest were lost to two badly dammaged to fly true anymore. and I didn't miss much back then.

throwing weapons are ment to be reused, there built for it, sides from the javalin but we don have those in DDO do we? useing modern bows and arrows you can ruin an arrow by shooting thru cardboard, so I can;t see an olden type wooden arrow being to usefull after hitting armor specialy metal armor.

[Elthbert]

100% returning weapons already exist. You can do the same thing with a returning ax, dagger, or dart.

yes but you are stuck witht he throwing weapon you have, you can't mix and match effects like you could with a 100% returning arrow. I would rather see a named bow which generated arrows magically than a returning arrow that could be put in whatever bow was more advantagous at the time. The ability to deliver nondamage ( paralyzing etc.) effects from range is much more powerful than some people seem to think, a 100% retuning arrow would be overpowered. A bow that created arrows would not necessarly be.

[Lizardgrad89]

Here is what I do about ammo anymore... I run to house D stock up on 1000-2000 +3 sturdies and put them all in the bank - requires bank space of course... then I restock her again with +3 sturdies... that way I'm not running from necropolis, GH or meridia as often inbetween quests. I can run to the bank should I feel I'm getting low. Typically I only carry about 500-700 arrows on Ambyre... the difference here is that 500-700 75% returning is equal to 875-1225 non-returning ammo.


[/QUOTE]

I JUST got the favor for Sturdy Arrows, and I was curious as to how the 75% return rate was calculated.

Can Sturdy Arrows come back more than once? I mean, if you had a quiver of 100 and shot them all, would you end up getting 75 back, which would then get used up, for a total of 175 from each quiver?

Or does each arrow have a 75% chance of returning? If this is the case, I would say that you should get an average of 400 arrows out of a purchase of 100.

100+75+56.25+42.19+31.64+23.73+17.99+13.35+10.01+7 .51+5.63+4.22+3.17+2.38+1.78+1.34+1.00+.75+.56+.42 +.31+.23+.18+.13+.1+.075+.056= 400.01

This is an important point for me, as the Sturdy Arrows are expensive and a pain in the butt to get over to the vendor to buy. At 4-1 I would make the effort, but at 1.75-1, probably not.

[redoubt]

Without having to revamp their ranged ammunition system, all the devs need to do is add a couple new items to the loot table:

+[1,2,3,4,5] [Silver/Adamantine/whatever] Returning [Arrow/Bolt]

None of this 75% returning BS.

Those could be cool, but how do you do many shot with 1 silver arrow? Do you have to wait for it to reach the target before you get to shoot your next shot? I know in the current system, when shooting the pillars in von6, I'll stop shooting and still get 3 or 4 hits from arrows still in the air (that were fired before the one in front of them hit). (Note: this was not meant to be sarcastic, but a no kidding question that I feel would have to be answered to do this.)

Really, it would seem (an assumption is coming, lookout!) that just upping the stack size would be the easiest. I like that you have to manage your resources in this game. (Not that only getting to take my favorite 20 bows, favorite 20 melee weapons, a page of potions, 10 clickies, a dozen scrolls and a 1000 arrows can called resource management.) When I bring up new toons I keep only what they can use right then. Anything for the future is banked or on other characters. I have to heal up, sell, repair and restock after every quest. You just learn where and how to do it quickly. I think its part of the game.

Any argument related to real life is mute. None of us could carry what our characters do, so I suppose it doesn't matter if we have stacks of a 1000 or a magical returning arrow. I'd just like keeping the complication of staying properly equipted. It's no different than getting potions before going on a quest.

[Luthen]

[snip] I mean, in a MMO (be it in DDO, LOTRO, WoW, or whatever you can think about), do we have to drink stuff regularly or have chance to die from being thirsty?? Do we have to eat regularly or die from starving?? Do we have to go to the bathroom or we stink?? :p


Actuallys yes. In Everquests yous musts always haves foods ons yous ors yous wills eventuallys starves. Yous musts alsos haves drinks ons yous ors yous wills eventuallys dehydrates ands dies. Craftings ins thats games allowss fors peoples tos makes specials foods ands drinks thats lasts longers ands evens haves somes effects tos boosts yours stats ors abilities whiles yous haves thems. I kinds ofs always liked thats ands wouldnt minds something similars ins DDOs. Buts whats we haves works fines too as fars as regenerating ins taverns.:p

Joking aside. There is also the ability to craft special arrows in other games and an "enhancement" in Everquest called Endless Quiver. One arrow is all you ever need and can change that arrow out with specialized arrows when you want. We need to look into some creative alternatives for ammunition use and storage.

[MysticTheurge]

Or does each arrow have a 75% chance of returning? If this is the case, I would say that you should get an average of 400 arrows out of a purchase of 100.

Yes, like this.

[Bloodyfury]

First, my apologies to Herzkos, my first reply has been edited.. :o

Second, let's keep the discussion on the original subject please, which is the suggestion about not having to restock endlessly on normal non magical ammos. Not discussing which new types of ammos should be in or not :)


I've played all the styles of range out there. Bag space was an annoyance at best, and groups that didn't wait a bit to let me pick up some amo inbetween long sets of quests are just annoying pugs.

It is really up to you to restock when you need to, not find a group, then restock.

Even on my repeater builds, I found 1500 bolts more than enough, even on something like waterworks. Graymoon.. emm... maybe, Co6, forget it. Had to restock.

If you have to have that many bolts just to survive one quest you were making it sound, do you EVER keep your finger off the trigger finger or do you just love to annoy the party kiting everything around? Kiting everything is about the only thing I can think of as to why you'd run out so darn fast to be the reason why you'd have to loose so much bag space that you are complaining about.

No worries about me my friend :D Kitting...what's that? Cuz I take care of my targets before they even close on me 95% of the time :D So cmon don't imply my play style has something to do with the suggestion please...

Some ppl were trying to compare this to melee cuz their weapons could break, etc... such a bad argument! Range or melee, our equipments can break too! But I would really like to hear... other than stupidly bashing an ooze or a rusty endlessly, when everyone in Stormreach IS equipped for them anyway, point me a quest where you can broke a weapon to the point you won't be able to melee til the end of the quest....?? None.

Let's say I'm more like the Devil's advocate for the occasionnal "rangers" out there or the new players. Like my bro, I also have some rl friends who started to play range too lately and this issue bothers them ALL. Simply annoying. And like someone else stated, having to restock on normal ammos than aren't even marterwork really doesn't add ANYTHING to the game, other than the fact it bothers us and makes us lose time in real life. I would even add, as someone used to play that way and used to restock....even if I'm used to it, yes, it still bothers me a LOT. Always been and will always be annoying to do so...

It would even add some flavor for this House D favor. I mean, lot of ppl probly wouldn't care "all the time" about House D stuff for a simple +2 and would stick with the normal ones. Atm, it would be pretty stupid to not buy them as you've to travel anyway to buy somes, House D or not, so yes you should as well go to House D and but these ones.

It would also gives back some "power" to these +2 or +3 range weapons, which are total **** at the moment. Why would you carry a +3 Holy Burst Heavy Repeater of Pure Good lvl 14? When you can get your hands on a simple +1 lvl 10 that IS gonna be a +3 with the House D anyway and that allows you to have that +3 Holy Burst at lvl 10 instead of lvl 14.

[salmag]

"Phantom Arrows,"

/not signed

Increase to 1000.

/signed

Quivers

/signed

Between each quest every player should be responsible to sell, repair, restock, etc.

[Hafeal]

Quivers
Stacks of 500 ammo (or 1000)
Automatic standard arrows/boltsI vote yes on all three.




I agree with this summary.

[Steejan]

Hello,

Good thread here…

From past my experience with my heavy repeater Ranger, I‘ve found I can typically can go through 7 to 8 stacks of the House- D 75% returning bolts in just one solo run of the entire Vale area and that is pretty much using just my repeaters most of the time.

So, I too see a big need to increase the ammunition stack size. I would love to see the size increase to 500 per back pack slot. It would also be very helpful to have magical quivers introduced into the game too. At a minimum, I think the quivers should have the capacity to hold at least 15 stacks of 100 arrows/bolts of assorted types and the arrows/bolts should have the capability to be hot bar-able right from the quiver.

Personally speaking, I have at least 3 mules that have their bank and back pack slots totally filled with all the different type of arrows/bolts found in this game.

The frustrating part to this is that in trying to have a self sufficient toon “which is in my toon's best interest”, in regards to healing and all the other clickies and potions and weapons that are needed for playing. It leaves my Ranger critically short of inventory space. Many times it’s just not worth taking the time or the effort to transfer over medium to small stack of specialty munitions, since my Ranger will just blow through them in seconds, leaving him short on the 75% returner type.

I really do enjoy playing my Ranger but every new update that comes out, seems to keep adding things to his already small inventory that needs to be carried and its size keeps on shrinking.

I for one, think it is high time that both ammunitions stack size increase and magical quivers make their way into the game.



Good hunting to you all, that is, with your limited ammo. :eek:

Steejan…

[oronisi]

Those could be cool, but how do you do many shot with 1 silver arrow? Do you have to wait for it to reach the target before you get to shoot your next shot? I know in the current system, when shooting the pillars in von6, I'll stop shooting and still get 3 or 4 hits from arrows still in the air (that were fired before the one in front of them hit). (Note: this was not meant to be sarcastic, but a no kidding question that I feel would have to be answered to do this.)

Really, it would seem (an assumption is coming, lookout!) that just upping the stack size would be the easiest. I like that you have to manage your resources in this game. (Not that only getting to take my favorite 20 bows, favorite 20 melee weapons, a page of potions, 10 clickies, a dozen scrolls and a 1000 arrows can called resource management.) When I bring up new toons I keep only what they can use right then. Anything for the future is banked or on other characters. I have to heal up, sell, repair and restock after every quest. You just learn where and how to do it quickly. I think its part of the game.

Any argument related to real life is mute. None of us could carry what our characters do, so I suppose it doesn't matter if we have stacks of a 1000 or a magical returning arrow. I'd just like keeping the complication of staying properly equipted. It's no different than getting potions before going on a quest.


Well in a PnP campaign, I would not allow an archer to shoot multiple simultaneous arrows (or shoot 1 clip from a repeating xbow) with only 1 returning arrow (or bolt). So in the case of manyshot, I would require they use a distinct item for each of the multiple arrows, be it 2,3, or 4. How that would be implemented in DDO, or if they think it would be too complicated to code for the sake of realism, is not for me to decide.

[CaptKurt]

The game already allows you to carry hundreds of pounds of arrows, I think unliomited arrows would be stupid and would greatly reduce my enjoyment of the game.

And what enjoyment does manging mundane ammo give you?

[FluffyDucky]

yes but you are stuck witht he throwing weapon you have, you can't mix and match effects like you could with a 100% returning arrow. I would rather see a named bow which generated arrows magically than a returning arrow that could be put in whatever bow was more advantagous at the time. The ability to deliver nondamage ( paralyzing etc.) effects from range is much more powerful than some people seem to think, a 100% retuning arrow would be overpowered. A bow that created arrows would not necessarly be.

For the scenario you presented (finding a spot where the mob can't get to you and ranging them till they die) the only difference between a 100% returning arrow and a 100% returning dart is the amount of time it will take. In the game players who depend on arrows normally carry enough to insure they will not run out during a quest. In a dungeon the only practical difference between having 1000's of arrows and having a 100% returning arrow is the backpack space consumed. To me that is not overpowered.

What effect would unlimited normal ammo have (in order of importance):
Free up backpack space.
Free up time (no need to run to the vendor between each quest)
Save money (very little, normal ammo is cheap)
Make +2 or +3 bows more useful (See post by Bloodyfury )

What effect would 100% returning magic arrows have (in order of importance):
Free up backpack space.
Free up more time (no need to run a special vendor between each quest)
Save more money (but still not tons)
May make some +2/+3 bows more useful (depending on the + on the magic arrow)

What effect would increased stack size have (in order of importance):
Free up backpack space (but not as much as the other options.)
Free up some time (may not need to visit vendor between every quest)

All three options address the main concern (backpack space). Unlimited ammo or returning ammo have an added benefit of saving restock time/money and generally making inventory management easier. (This is a plus to some and a minus to others.)

I have no problems with any of the options however the nice thing about the 100% returning arrow is it fits with what we already have. It just takes the same magic that is used on daggers, axes, & darts and applies it to arrows. It can be balanced by having arrows be more likely to take damage than other returning weapons so that you may need to carry 2-4 (non stacking) to be sure to make it through a quest.

[roadkill525]

For the scenario you presented (finding a spot where the mob can't get to you and ranging them till they die) the only difference between a 100% returning arrow and a 100% returning dart is the amount of time it will take. In the game players who depend on arrows normally carry enough to insure they will not run out during a quest. In a dungeon the only practical difference between having 1000's of arrows and having a 100% returning arrow is the backpack space consumed. To me that is not overpowered.

What effect would unlimited normal ammo have (in order of importance):
Free up backpack space.
Free up time (no need to run to the vendor between each quest)
Save money (very little, normal ammo is cheap)
Make +2 or +3 bows more useful (See post by Bloodyfury )

What effect would 100% returning magic arrows have (in order of importance):
Free up backpack space.
Free up more time (no need to run a special vendor between each quest)
Save more money (but still not tons)
May make some +2/+3 bows more useful (depending on the + on the magic arrow)

What effect would increased stack size have (in order of importance):
Free up backpack space (but not as much as the other options.)
Free up some time (may not need to visit vendor between every quest)

All three options address the main concern (backpack space). Unlimited ammo or returning ammo have an added benefit of saving restock time/money and generally making inventory management easier. (This is a plus to some and a minus to others.)

I have no problems with any of the options however the nice thing about the 100% returning arrow is it fits with what we already have. It just takes the same magic that is used on daggers, axes, & darts and applies it to arrows. It can be balanced by having arrows be more likely to take damage than other returning weapons so that you may need to carry 2-4 (non stacking) to be sure to make it through a quest.

I'm agenst the 100% returnign arrows, though I would like to see increasing arrows to 500 a stack and adding a quiver that will hold x amount of stacks and up to x amount of total items. kinda like the gem bag and the collectable.

if you put returning arrows durability at 1 or 2 I guess ya then have something that will fit what you want and still fit lore, but then ya gonna be puting the same amount of time and proly more money into repairing the arrows. arrows and bolts have little to no chance of surviving after hitting someone wearing armor. give missed shots a 100% chance of returning, and hit shots 95% chance to break the arrow.

and having non stacking 100% returning bolts will help the guy useing the repeater? I figure it will use the 1 bolt shoot then reload the next stack of 1 bolt then shoot.

I understand backpack space being a problem, specialy for packrats like me. but needing to buy and use arrows is one of the things I been missing in **** near every other game out there these days. I love that this game requires you to think about how many and of what kind of ammo ya carrying.

[FluffyDucky]

I'm agenst the 100% returnign arrows, though I would like to see increasing arrows to 500 a stack and adding a quiver that will hold x amount of stacks and up to x amount of total items. kinda like the gem bag and the collectable.

if you put returning arrows durability at 1 or 2 I guess ya then have something that will fit what you want and still fit lore, but then ya gonna be puting the same amount of time and proly more money into repairing the arrows. arrows and bolts have little to no chance of surviving after hitting someone wearing armor. give missed shots a 100% chance of returning, and hit shots 95% chance to break the arrow.

and having non stacking 100% returning bolts will help the guy useing the repeater? I figure it will use the 1 bolt shoot then reload the next stack of 1 bolt then shoot.

I understand backpack space being a problem, specialy for packrats like me. but needing to buy and use arrows is one of the things I been missing in **** near every other game out there these days. I love that this game requires you to think about how many and of what kind of ammo ya carrying.

I don't see unlimited ammo or even +5 shock 100% returning indestructible arrows as being game breaking. Ranged combat is so weak that it could take a major boost and still be underpowered. My $0.02 and you may disagree.

Resource management seems to be a love it or hate it proposition. For some it adds realism and for others it is just a PITA. Even the resource management lovers seem to think the current system should be made easier. IMO increased stack size needs to be implemented NOW and quivers added as soon as they are available. Unlimited ammo or returning arrows can go on the back burner.

As for returning bolts and repeaters there are many ways around that issue. How about having returning bolts come in bound sets of 3. Or just ignore it and have them just work like magic ;). Returning weapons don't actually return, they just swawn a new one in your hand. If I can have 6 retuning daggers stuck in a wall at once why can't I do the same with 3 bolts? How does it work now if you have one 75% returning bolt?

[roadkill525]

I don't see unlimited ammo or even +5 shock 100% returning indestructible arrows as being game breaking. Ranged combat is so weak that it could take a major boost and still be underpowered. My $0.02 and you may disagree.

Resource management seems to be a love it or hate it proposition. For some it adds realism and for others it is just a PITA. Even the resource management lovers seem to think the current system should be made easier. IMO increased stack size needs to be implemented NOW and quivers added as soon as they are available. Unlimited ammo or returning arrows can go on the back burner.

As for returning bolts and repeaters there are many ways around that issue. How about having returning bolts come in bound sets of 3. Or just ignore it and have them just work like magic ;). Returning weapons don't actually return, they just swawn a new one in your hand. If I can have 6 retuning daggers stuck in a wall at once why can't I do the same with 3 bolts? How does it work now if you have one 75% returning bolt?


aye ranged weapons could use a boost, ranged rogues are always the class I play if I have the option. also you should be able to dual weild throwers, two weapon fighting should not be limited to melee.

and I do agree with they need to increase the stack size and/or add in quivers asap. quivers should come with potion bags, and tool bags(healing repair lockpicks and spell componits). they already got gembags and te other, not sure how much codeing it woudl take to copy and paste those then change the limitations on them.

I think they should do some work giving us bags and pouches to clear space and keep track of where what is, but I don't think unlimited ammo is the answer to the problem.

as for the 100% returning bolt and the repeater, I got no clue how that would work, I was just sayin thats how it seams it would work to me.(still learning this game so alotta my asumptions come from my understanding of D&D 3.5)

again needing to have arrows is one of the gems that is hard to find in games these days.

[Zenako]

as for the "time to restock issue" Simple fix for that, create some remote vendors from House D that live in the various new areas and sell them there. A guy in the Desert, Meridia, and even the Necropolis would eliminate much of that so called PITA part.

however, it would not be that much help to some of us, who already choose to go to House D and K to sell off our loot in order to get the best prices for it anyway. Meaning it is real easy to just swing by the House D ammo dudes and restock anyway. I too use bank space to stockpile some extras (mainly for Meridia action these days).

IF getting 100% returning arrows is that important you can already get them in the game with the new Enhancement Line. Since that whole line is focused on being the best ranged attacker you can be, should be right up the development curve for most archers I would think.

For someone who asked the Sturdy ammo basically gives you about 400 shots for every stack of 100 you start with.

Having a small storage quiver like a small gem bag would be fine. Something 6 slots for stacks of 100 each.

Messing with stacking limits also impacts the whole House D favor tree. I mean who needs to worry about the Sturdy ammo if you can make stacks of 500 or 1000?

[Elthbert]

And what enjoyment does manging mundane ammo give you?

It gives me a sense a verisimilitude in the game. Managing mundane ammo is part of the game, inventory management is part of the game, the game has already broken with many of the aspects of Realism inherent in the table top game, and we already have a Monty Haul treasure system, inflated stats etc. Suddenly having endless ammo would be a serious error. I never even liked FPS games where you had unlimited ammo and thats pretty much what you do in those games, simpply shoot. This Game is supposed to be an MMORPG, it would be nice to keep some aspects of realism to the game.

[Gringo]

Why would you need them if we have transmuting bows?

[Uska]

I use repeaters and I say NO TO UNLIMTED AMMO I like a little immersion in my game I think we can carry to much now but I live with it considering all we have to fight, you can get by with ammo if you get your house d favor and manage things you should never really run out of ammo. I would like to see some kind of quiver maybe but never free ammo.

[Uska]

Btw Herzkos, you kinda missed the whole point of the thread, might want to read again. Sure I'm talking about inv space as it was the major argument to bring quivers in the game soon. But my suggestion is mainly toward the fact that the game compells us to REGULARLY restock on ammos at a pace that is incompatible with enjoyment. And that this is the only type of play in the game that it bothers us that much and that often.

Fyi Herzkos, for a "real" repeater build... I can buy around 30-40 stacks of +3 Sturdy House D bolts and if I play only that toon, I'll have to refill after a few hours (like 3-4 hours max). However on my pure sorc, I don't even remember the last time I bought components... about once per 3-4 months?

The suggestion isn't unbalancing anything in the game, simply preventing players from losing REAL TIME uselessly and regularly on something that only allows us to play a toon, the way it should be...

Edit: Ok I was a bit expeditive, my apologies to Herzkos... :o


Restocking my bolts in no way affects my enjoyment and I have limited time to play as well between work, school and family time. I check my bolt stock before a quest and I always try to restock before I log off my repeater dude. I guess some people just have different ideas of whats needed.

[GlassCannon]

I use repeaters and I say NO TO UNLIMTED AMMO I like a little immersion in my game I think we can carry to much now but I live with it considering all we have to fight, you can get by with ammo if you get your house d favor and manage things you should never really run out of ammo. I would like to see some kind of quiver maybe but never free ammo.


Someone put a sack on hi... heck I'll do it.

*Slips a burlap sack over Uska and carries him off to a dark shady area*

PLEASE IGNORE THAT POST

I like unlimited ammo.

Having to carry 3,000 +3 House D Returning ammo just to do The Shroud, and STILL RUNNING OUT OF AMMUNITION really irritates the hell out of me.

[Uska]

Someone put a sack on hi... heck I'll do it.

*Slips a burlap sack over Uska and carries him off to a dark shady area*

PLEASE IGNORE THAT POST

I like unlimited ammo.

Having to carry 3,000 +3 House D Returning ammo just to do The Shroud, and STILL RUNNING OUT OF AMMUNITION really irritates the hell out of me.

Cuts out of sack.... you like go play lotr its a stupid idea and not dnd

[FluffyCalico]

First, I dunno to which Devs this suggestion might be good for (maybe Silthe?), but here we go...

I do like to play range combat in most games (for various reasons useless to state in this post) so this is something I "tested" in many games as this is usually the first thing I try in most games. I went back to LOTRO last week to have some diversity in my gaming experience like many gamers, so i started to play my good old Hunter (a range DPS) and I had a lot of fun.

In DDO, I'm completely sold to repeaters since launch and put massive efforts to get full sets of light & heavy repeaters for my builds. I also tried an unusual build for a "bow ranger" and it happened to be pretty **** good and fun to play. BUT... ammunitions system is a real PITA in DDO!!

We'll never say it enough I think and it became really obvious when I played LOTRO... When I go on an adventure with my LOTRO Hunter, I don't have to bother at all with regular ammunitions! SO FUN! And this is a HUGE part in the fun we can get some this kind of gameplay. To which points do we have to make things looks "like real life"?

I mean, in a MMO (be it in DDO, LOTRO, WoW, or whatever you can think about), do we have to drink stuff regularly or have chance to die from being thirsty?? Do we have to eat regularly or die from starving?? Do we have to go to the bathroom or we stink?? :p

Our characters handle these automatically because they are natural needs, we don't have to bother with any of this. And I fail to see why it should be different with basic ammunitions. For a range toon, his life is highly tied to his ammunitions. For him, this IS a natural need, there's no way he's gonna say to himself: "Cool I've 200 arrows, I should be good to kill 300 kobolds!" :rolleyes: If he didn't had enough ammos, he would simply refuse to go out questing anywhere don't you think? Cuz for him, this is an essential need as much as drinking or eating! And he's gonna make sure everytime he has enough to slay the whole Nine Hells if he has to :D

When people started to talk about quivers a few months ago and that we learned they would work on that, we were all happy, with reasons! :D This will be a great addition for sure.

But will it be enough? I doubt it.
Will this change the range experience more enjoyable? Maybe.
Will this makes range combat more enjoyable? Pretty sure it won't.

Why? Cuz the same pattern will remain unchanged. Quivers will save us some space, yeah, but we'll still have to lose some time, uselessly and regularly, to buy the ammos.

My suggestion for this issue for DDO?

Make it so we can have permanent ammos for regular ammo only! Not for Deneith ammos or any special & magical ammos, only for regular exactly like in LOTRO and many other games. And continue to use the actual systems for the magical/special ones like it is at the moment. You want to use some Deneith ammos? Cool, but you'll have to buy them to use somes. Want to use some slaying arrows? Great, find somes! You don't feel like wasting your time for any kind of special ammos other than the regular stuff cuz you think you're fine the way you are? Great! Enjoy your playtime like you should be able to and don't bother with ammos like most other games! That would make it SO MUCH more enjoyable... No more stupid message "Error: Out of ammo!".... Out of ammo = unlimited regular ammo!


Recently my brother wanted a repeater build like one of mine so I helped him to start it. It was just funny when I had to explain him about range combats in DDO...

Bro - "So how many bolts do I buy?"

Me - "Well you don't really have the choice, you gotta fill up your inventory with the max ammos you can."

Bro - "Uh? Why so?"

Me - "Cuz ammos are used way too fast. If you don't fill your inventory, you're gonna end up with no ammo in the middle of a quest. And you don't want that :D"

Bro - "Ok, I'll full my inventory then." (minus 2-3 free space for stuff, not much more)

Now, keep in mind that this is my bro's 2nd toon only, he doesn't know each quest real good and the game is still kinda new for him in many ways. Then a few minutes later...

Bro - "Well that sucks, now I can't get my stuff from chests to sell them and I won't make any money at all. I'll just buy less bolts to take stuff from the chests next time."

Me - "You could. But then, after each quest you'll have to refull on bolts to be sure you'll have enough and ppl grouping with you are just gonna be ****ed off to have to wait for you after every single quest cuz otherwise you won't have enough ammos to run 2-3 quests in a row..."

Bro - "Ah, true...".

So now, it kinda ruins the experience for a new player like him cuz the game system compells him to play a way he wouldn't want to play normally. As he's not rich at all, he doesn't necessarily understand that loot at low-mid lvl isn't that great and that it's not with THESE stuff he's gonna make a lot of cash. Admit it, for a new player, getting chests after chests of loot you can't grab is lame, no matter how much it's worth... :rolleyes:

People will say: "Yeah, but it's normal, we don't have as much inv space when low level."

True & false. The more we level, the longer it is to kill the mobs, so you end up with more inv space but do need more ammos than ever cuz you're gonna use more than before.

But the most important fact about a change like this would be... improving the fun we can have from range combat. A lot have been made lately (especially CODOG, tx again!) but wasting time over and over and over again for something as basic as regular ammos that doesn't give any bonus at all just isn't right imho... I think LOTRO vision of range combat is simply awesome and much better than DDO and that changing this would simply improved DDO experience. It could only be positive! :cool:

Waiting for comments

Um you get 2 whole more bags now then you did when the game started and rangers managed then. I mean you have an extra 40 slots now that you used not to have. Should not be a problem.

[GlassCannon]

I love them.

I does.

Please take their most excruciating problem and turn it around? Please?

no srsly... PLEASE?

[GlassCannon]

Um you get 2 whole more bags now then you did when the game started and rangers managed then. I mean you have an extra 40 slots now that you used not to have. Should not be a problem.

You need all those for higher level content, not to mention all the different sets of dualwielding weapons you will carry, your components, wands, and various quest items... Rangers have the toughest time managing their inventories. Rogues come in a close second.

[FluffyCalico]

You need all those for higher level content, not to mention all the different sets of dualwielding weapons you will carry, your components, wands, and various quest items... Rangers have the toughest time managing their inventories. Rogues come in a close second.

Um if you are melee enough to need lots of sets of dual weilding weapons then you should not be using many bolts :eek:
Pick a role ranged or toe to toe

my ranger is level 15 and has never had inventory issues.

hardest lol Yeah no sorc carrys a wand of every spell they don't have, scrolls, healing wands, etc

[Mad_Bombardier]

Why would you need them if we have transmuting bows?Because I'd rather have Transmuting arrows with a Greater Bane bow. :)

[Zenako]

You need all those for higher level content, not to mention all the different sets of dualwielding weapons you will carry, your components, wands, and various quest items... Rangers have the toughest time managing their inventories. Rogues come in a close second.

So try being a high level Ranger/Rogue with nice bows, lots of nice situational sets of TWF gear (dual greater contruct banes make short work of portals...), plus various rogue gear, and spell components and clickies for being self sufficient and wands and .....and.... and... I usualy start most quests with about a half page empty, with about 5 slots filled with extra ammo. Frankly with the new damage system on death, having people run back to town and repair has made it a lot less of an issue to return to town to sell/restock these days since everyone pretty much has a need to do so now.

Now as for 3000 Sturdy arrows in a Shroud Run????:eek::rolleyes: That is effectively 12,000 shots. At 1 shot/second that would be about 60 per minute (add in the manyshot boosts) for another 30 (assuming max level manyshot). Lets say you actually fire off 100 shots a minute. That means you were nonstop shooting for 2 hours straight, doing nothing other than autoattacking 24/7 and hitting manyshot constantly every two minutes.... Sorry but the exageration does not help your case...

[CaptKurt]

Why would you need them if we have transmuting bows?

1.) arrows that provide effects alternative to simple piercing, would/should be available at early levels and would provide a reason for ammo management.

2.) Transmuting is a high end effect that also bypasses DR and other such defenses.

[CaptKurt]

The more that we discuss this, it really just comes does to preference: Peoples personal opinion on whether you should or should no buy ammo.

Lets be clear, that people are talking about mundane ammo here...just plain old arrows or bolts. No MW, no magic of any kind, no special properties.

Near as I can tell, there is no personal enjoyment to be gained by running to the vendor to buy mundane arrows. I certainly derive no pleasure from doing so.

The more that this is discussed, the more that I am not in favor of unlimited basic ammo, although I see no purpose in not making the basic items unlimited (basic spell components, thieves tools, healer/repair kits, ammo, etc), as the management and procurement of such adds nothing to the game, except for frustration when you run out.

However I can totally see how special arrows make ammo management worth doing, and while maybe still a pain in the ass, definitely adds something to the game. So I am totally in favor of special purpose non-magical ammo being made available. Perhaps even apply this to the other basic items in the game.

[Elthbert]

Because I'd rather have Transmuting arrows with a Greater Bane bow. :)


\Which goes to my earlier point about why there should be no 100% returning arrows. I would also say there should be no transmuting arrows, a bow which changes its ammo is one thing, a self changing arrow that can be used in the absolute best bow, not so much.

[Ikuryo]

First I like the idea of quivers, second the arcane archer series gives stacks of 100 because you need 4 arrows to fire a level 16 manyshot. I've also had some of my arcane arrows not come back to me. There is actually blunt and slashing arrows available in one of the standard pnp books, the dmg on them was different from the standard arrow though.

In other odd news my arcane arrows seem to do slashing dmg, i have no idea why. I heard someone say that the tiger guys have dr that can be beaten by piercing weapons and I was wondering why I was getting yellow numbers so I checked my log and found that I was doing just slashing dmg to anything I shot at. It was a bit of a surprise, I'm not sure if its a bug that no one noticed.

Oh one last thing, people often get upset about the amount of stuff we carry but we are assumed to be using bags of holding or portable holes. Try looking up the stats of those items sometime. They reduce the effective weight of everything in them to very low levels without ever bulging by much.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

ok...ok...resorce management...PnP...AD&D...

1.) in the old pnp days...werent we able to MAKE our own arrows?
use resourced...gather suitable wood from brush, trees...feathers from foul...towns got chickens...and we hunted game...and roadkill, (lol)(:p) feathered animals we killed due to the setting-wandering monsters...etc.

on this same line of thinking...I remember gathering/making my own components powdering metals, gems, granite, bat guano from caves, animal hairs....etc...bull dung SHOULD be something you could find around any farming community...not something stocked aroud the general store.

My druid was forced to do the silver bowl and sickle in the light of the full moon....blah blah blah...(I think she just liked to see me try to weasel my way out of i)t...thing by my DM...because using mistletoe pruchased from a vendor was inferior product and its use constituted another spell failure chance...gathering it incorrectly...(didn't it have to be cut from the tree using a silver sickle...then it had to drop into a special bowl...a die roll to see if I hit the bowl..fail and start all over..)
would lead to diaster if I was trying to cast a spell in a hurry...as one slight mistake with bad MIS. would lead to disaster...lol...
evil DM...nah...:rolleyes:


2.) And wasn't there a %chance the arrows would break with use...and the ones that didn't could be retrieved? repaired and reused...searches and die rolls were involves...I could usually get back 25% of what I used...

Or is this another HOUSE rule I am thinking of.

[Zenako]

First I like the idea of quivers, second the arcane archer series gives stacks of 100 because you need 4 arrows to fire a level 16 manyshot. I've also had some of my arcane arrows not come back to me. There is actually blunt and slashing arrows available in one of the standard pnp books, the dmg on them was different from the standard arrow though.

In other odd news my arcane arrows seem to do slashing dmg, i have no idea why. I heard someone say that the tiger guys have dr that can be beaten by piercing weapons and I was wondering why I was getting yellow numbers so I checked my log and found that I was doing just slashing dmg to anything I shot at. It was a bit of a surprise, I'm not sure if its a bug that no one noticed.

Oh one last thing, people often get upset about the amount of stuff we carry but we are assumed to be using bags of holding or portable holes. Try looking up the stats of those items sometime. They reduce the effective weight of everything in them to very low levels without ever bulging by much.

Were you by any chance using a Transmuting Bow? That might chance the damage type to best hurt the target.

[JFeenstra]

I personally disagree with more types of damage comig from arrows...let's keep some of the PnP rules sacred, shall we?

I hope that blunt and slashing arrows come with Age of Conan and that everyone will be happy with that because I don't want to see those in DDO.

Otherwise I would like to see piercing and blunt Dwarven Axes as well...right? (that's silly, I know...I hope I don't ever see something like that, but these days, if enough people complain....)
in various other dnd based games (baulders gate and icewind dale series' come to mind) there are blunt arrows already

its simply an arrow shaft weighted with a steel covering

they're not as aerodynamic as regular arrows (more wind resistance), but they work on the same principles

[studentx]

*snipped*
/sarcasm on, ooh, and while we're at it, lets give all casters unlimited
spell components for the same reasons listed as infinite bolts/arrows

Actually there is an unlimited component mechanic in the game, silly. ;)

[sda3]

With my reapeater build i can carry 2500 bolts in one inventory slot. A wand of flame arrow.