ATDQ1-2 nerfed? [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

toord

03-13-2008, 12:16 PM

Angelus_dead

03-13-2008, 12:39 PM

Last night I ran ATDQ1-2 for the first time since mod6. It felt that both the pre-raid and raid have been somehow nerfed. It just doesn't feel like the epic fight it once was. Dunno, but it seems suspicious to me when you can finish the raid on elite in about a minute and a half (including buffs) with only one cleric, four casters and three bards
Yes, it was nerfed in the module 5 release, just like every other high-level quest.

That was the update which doubled or tripled the firepower of offensive casters, boosting both their DPS and DPR to silly levels. It had not previously been possible for a few casters to kill Laliat with Wall of Fire, but after that, not only was it possible, but it was far easier than any other technique.

Elthbert

03-13-2008, 12:39 PM

Last night I ran ATDQ1-2 for the first time since mod6. It felt that both the pre-raid and raid have been somehow nerfed. It just doesn't feel like the epic fight it once was. Dunno, but it seems suspicious to me when you can finish the raid on elite in about a minute and a half (including buffs) with only one cleric, four casters and three bards :D

Peace.

REALLY! Awesome, maybe I can get my guild to go back and fight that ********** of a Demon.

You do realize you are significantly more powerful as a 16th level character right?

toord

03-13-2008, 12:46 PM

You do realize you are significantly more powerful as a 16th level character right?

That's kind of a moot point since all the spells we used were lvl4 (firewall) and lvl5(CoC and Cloudkill) w/o heighten in my case. Granted my DC and spell pen checks are higher than before but she's supposed a CR 28 (on elite), right?

Peace.

Angelus_dead

03-13-2008, 01:13 PM

That's kind of a moot point since all the spells we used were lvl4 (firewall) and lvl5
By advancing +2 levels you did get more mana to cast your spells, an extra +1d6 on Cone of Cold, and also more APs that possibly went into spell crit enhancements. However, the higher levels had less of an effect than the massively cheaper metamagic pricing.

PS. Cloudkill is totally worthless within that raid.

stockwizard5

03-13-2008, 01:17 PM

Sorry but casters were soloing her (every three days) before mod5/mod6.

Not surpised she went down quickly to a raid party with a plan.

Darth_Sizzle

03-13-2008, 01:28 PM

Yes, as before it was so hard that a Fighter could solo it and not take any damage they have now nerf'd it so that with 4 casters it's fairly easy.

Josh

03-13-2008, 01:53 PM

Yes, as before it was so hard that a Fighter could solo it and not take any damage they have now nerf'd it so that with 4 casters it's fairly easy.

I'm calling 100% BS on this statement.

toord

03-13-2008, 02:19 PM

Yes, as before it was so hard that a Fighter could solo it and not take any damage

LOL! Joke of the day.

nbhs275

03-13-2008, 02:22 PM

I'm calling 100% BS on this statement.

nope, it was perfectly soloable on normal for any class. soloed it on my bard, barbarian, cleric, ranger, and paladin.

Elthbert

03-13-2008, 02:24 PM

nope, it was perfectly soloable on normal for any class. soloed it on my bard, barbarian, cleric, ranger, and paladin.

Without damage? Reread what he said.

And I am still not sure I buy it. Got any screen shots?

Razvan

03-13-2008, 02:26 PM

Just curious, but can you, or was it ever possible, to charm the archers on top of the pillars and let them kill the queen?...or are they, and have always been, red-named?

SilverSong

03-13-2008, 02:31 PM

Just curious, but can you, or was it ever possible, to charm the archers on top of the pillars and let them kill the queen?...or are they, and have always been, red-named?

At one point they were Oragned named and you could cloud kill them. They were changed I think in a patch just before Mod 4 or in mod 4. Never saw anyone try to charm them, but doesn't mean someone didn't try.

SilverSong

03-13-2008, 02:44 PM

I have a dumb question. Do you half to do the 4 desert quest each time before you do the raid (like the Vons) or is it like the reavers raid?

Yes you have to do each of the desert quests before hand, though unlike the Vons you can run the 3 item quests right after you finish the raid, you just have to wait the 3 days to rerun the preraid. You can also bank the items, though you can only have one of each type in your backpack.

Hmm not sure how my posted ended up here. lol This answers a post 2 posts down.

stockwizard5

03-13-2008, 02:46 PM

Razvan Just curious, but can you, or was it ever possible, to charm the archers on top of the pillars and let them kill the queen?...or are they, and have always been, red-named?

They were not originally red-named and the lava was not deep - charm + resist fire ftw

I'm calling 100% BS on this statement.

Sorry but also quite likely - summon + safe spot ftw

emsteiner

03-13-2008, 02:46 PM

I have a dumb question. Do you half to do the 4 desert quest each time before you do the raid (like the Vons) or is it like the reavers raid?

kchaz

03-13-2008, 02:56 PM

I have a dumb question. Do you half to do the 4 desert quest each time before you do the raid (like the Vons) or is it like the reavers raid?

not a dumb ?...but yes, you need to reflag the desert quests like vons to do DQ each time...

nbhs275

03-13-2008, 03:04 PM

Without damage? Reread what he said.

And I am still not sure I buy it. Got any screen shots?

She has short arms, or she did. Lets say that. The archers you could aggro one at a time, and if you jumped they would miss you.

Ranmaru2

03-13-2008, 03:39 PM

Without damage? Reread what he said.

And I am still not sure I buy it. Got any screen shots?

With a certain method, yep...0 dmg. However, I'm not at liberty to speak much more upon this.

toord

03-13-2008, 03:57 PM

With a certain method, yep...0 dmg. However, I'm not at liberty to speak much more upon this.

Safe spot, exploiting a bug eh?

I'm not saying it *was* not soloable back in the day. But it was a bit of a prowess. Kind of similar to running soloing Tor (with 3 dragons) nowadays. Doable, but you're gonna get banged and possibly killed. To say that back in the day you could breeze through ATDQ1-2 solo is definitely an overstatement. Can't wait until ppl start talking about soloing the Reaver (w/o terrain bug exploit) and Shrowd 1-3!

Peace.

Ringos

03-13-2008, 04:07 PM

Yes you have to do each of the desert quests before hand, though unlike the Vons you can run the 3 item quests right after you finish the raid, you just have to wait the 3 days to rerun the preraid. You can also bank the items, though you can only have one of each type in your backpack.

Hmm not sure how my posted ended up here. lol This answers a post 2 posts down.

Hmm...answering questions before they are asked...a gift perhaps?

Ranmaru2

03-13-2008, 04:40 PM

Safe spot, exploiting a bug eh?

I'm not saying it *was* not soloable back in the day. But it was a bit of a prowess. Kind of similar to running soloing Tor (with 3 dragons) nowadays. Doable, but you're gonna get banged and possibly killed. To say that back in the day you could breeze through ATDQ1-2 solo is definitely an overstatement. Can't wait until ppl start talking about soloing the Reaver (w/o terrain bug exploit) and Shrowd 1-3!

Peace.

ADQ 1 is actually quite easy to solo without getting hit. I've done it 3x in the past 2 days. The raid on the other hand...I might be able to if I could manage to get some delvin boots and about 150 mnemonics O_O on my Wizzie :D

Also, the DQ's always been a bit of a push over for a raid boss, up until they gave her the Berserker Barrage attack where she makes any tank that dares step in front of her into minced/shredded meat...I have a few buddies who solo'd her quite easily with evasion builds. Rangers can still do it any day of the weak if they want to.

Elthbert

03-13-2008, 07:41 PM

Sorry but also quite likely - summon + safe spot ftw

Fighters summon?

Tanka

03-13-2008, 08:04 PM

Fighters summon?
Nope, though you could use clickies and boatloads of scrolls if you had the UMD. Pretty silly to do it that way back in the day though.

I was one item away from being able to solo it on Honos before the change went through. Needed a 30pt Elec resist item, and the only spot I could reliably give up for that was necklace. Unfortunately, I never did get the Reaver Amulet.

stockwizard5

03-13-2008, 10:04 PM

Fighters summon?

Nope, though you could use clickies and boatloads of scrolls if you had the UMD. Pretty silly to do it that way back in the day though.

Just needed one ... and not so silly.

tihocan

03-14-2008, 07:05 AM

The raid hasn't been "nerfed", it's always been rather easy, it's just that:
1. We're more powerful
2. With the change to raid loot and safe spots, there is little reason to shortman it anymore

toord

03-14-2008, 09:50 AM

The raid hasn't been "nerfed", it's always been rather easy, it's just that:
1. We're more powerful
2. With the change to raid loot and safe spots, there is little reason to shortman it anymore

Seems to me then, developers and game producers need to invest some time in making raid end bosses considerably harder. They have spent time making casters ridiculously powerful (might be squishy, but who needs hardness when you can throw *one* WoF, for instance, that delivers 200 pts+ of damage per hit), I think it's time they make it so that end bosses are 1)not soloable 2)if your party doesn't have its sh!t together you could get wiped. This applies to all raid end bosses. Stormreaver's CR (on elite) is only 28, if they want to make it challenging they should make him a CR 35 as well as make the air ellies red named and not FoD/PK-able.

I don't know (and haven't heard) of raid loot runs in the PnP version of D&D. Maybe ddo should stick to D&D "standards."

Peace.

nbhs275

03-14-2008, 10:34 AM

Seems to me then, developers and game producers need to invest some time in making raid end bosses considerably harder. They have spent time making casters ridiculously powerful (might be squishy, but who needs hardness when you can throw *one* WoF, for instance, that delivers 200 pts+ of damage per hit), I think it's time they make it so that end bosses are 1)not soloable 2)if your party doesn't have its sh!t together you could get wiped. This applies to all raid end bosses. Stormreaver's CR (on elite) is only 28, if they want to make it challenging they should make him a CR 35 as well as make the air ellies red named and not FoD/PK-able.

I don't know (and haven't heard) of raid loot runs in the PnP version of D&D. Maybe ddo should stick to D&D "standards."

Peace.

for all purposes, the raid is meant for level 12 characters, as is the titan, 10 for dragon. Try running them on elite with the appropriate level and you wont think they are weaksauce anymore.

As far as enhancing their power, that would be a huge poke in the eye to casual players who are starting to do these raids again because they know they have a good chance of completing them. Im not a casual player i guess(what makes someone non-casual? the fact they like to raid) and i even forgo doing DQ alot because of the boring grind for items. It was kinda fun to solo them and have it be kind of challenging, but a level 16 character in a lvl 12 quests always should make you feel omnipotent.

Darth_Sizzle

03-14-2008, 10:43 AM

This is not Pencil and Paper D&D.

I've played quite a bit of the P&P game (have all the books :) & thats the reason I bought this game to begin with). I have never heard of a raid in P&P. Usually you have 1 DM and around 4 PC's.

None of the raids were easy the first X times they were run, after they were run many times we found the most efficent way to beat them. All the raids have received tweaks making them "more difficult," we simply adapt and overcome (the hallmark of a good player).

Strakeln

03-14-2008, 10:51 AM

I'm calling 100% BS on this statement.LOL

Not been around much, eh? I solo'd it with the following, in order of ease:

1) Ranger
2) Barbarian
3) Cleric
4) Sorc

Of course, I used safe spots. The only character I have solo'd the DQ without safe spots is my ranger.

toord

03-14-2008, 11:08 AM

This is not Pencil and Paper D&D.

None of the raids were easy the first X times they were run, after they were run many times we found the most efficent way to beat them. All the raids have received tweaks making them "more difficult," we simply adapt and overcome (the hallmark of a good player).

There's a difference between "overcome" and ridiculously easy. Tweak aren't enough. Perhaps making the end bosses be lvl sensitive could help. Or perhaps disallowing upper lvl players from entering. I mean, I'm all for beating the system, I'm just against the grind raids lend themselves to -- and they're a grind because they're too easy. For instance, have yet to hear groups "farming" the Black Abbot -- even though it's supposed to be a lvl15 raid.

Peace.

nbhs275

03-14-2008, 12:22 PM

There's a difference between "overcome" and ridiculously easy. Tweak aren't enough. Perhaps making the end bosses be lvl sensitive could help. Or perhaps disallowing upper lvl players from entering. I mean, I'm all for beating the system, I'm just against the grind raids lend themselves to -- and they're a grind because they're too easy. For instance, have yet to hear groups "farming" the Black Abbot -- even though it's supposed to be a lvl15 raid.

Peace.

by that logic any low level quest people farm for thier items should still be incredibly hard for higher level character? So anyone who farms xorian should have to fight incredibly boosted undead? Raiding is only a grind if you make it one. If you dont like farming raids, you dont have too. If you want the items, then you run the raids. Thats all there is too it. Increasing the difficulty of the raids just because one group did well isnt a smart move. They made that mistake on abbot, and they also got bad reviews on the changes to DQ. If i was turbine, i would make the decision to not go back and "rebalance" older quests. They are better off focusing resources at new quests, that they can build on lessons learned.

And as far as farming the abbot, its not that the raids fights are difficult, its that the puzzles bug so often, and NEED to be completed. It all adds up to very few ppl running it because of the hassle for what is mostly sub par and rare loot.

toord

03-14-2008, 12:35 PM

by that logic any low level quest people farm for thier items should still be incredibly hard for higher level character? So anyone who farms xorian should have to fight incredibly boosted undead? Raiding is only a grind if you make it one. If you dont like farming raids, you dont have too. If you want the items, then you run the raids. Thats all there is too it. Increasing the difficulty of the raids just because one group did well isnt a smart move. They made that mistake on abbot, and they also got bad reviews on the changes to DQ. If i was turbine, i would make the decision to not go back and "rebalance" older quests. They are better off focusing resources at new quests, that they can build on lessons learned.

Well, if, say, Reaver's napkin or Dreamsplitter or +3 Tomes (for instance) dropped on other non-raid quests, there would be no need to do that raid more than a couple of times. And I personally believe raids should be almost impossible to beat (i.e. ppl would know going in there was a good chance of a wipe) and the point being that the final "unique" loot would have high drop probability. Raids now are so ridiculously easy that there's no sense of accomplishment...they're rather algorithmic and cooking-recipe-like. If turbine ever had a vote about what to do with raids, my vote would go to make them impossibly hard to beat and those who beat them would be handsomely rewarded. But I know I'm in the minority ... so not holding my breath on that :)

Peace.

Josh

03-14-2008, 12:36 PM

LOL

Not been around much, eh? I solo'd it with the following, in order of ease:

1) Ranger
2) Barbarian
3) Cleric
4) Sorc

Of course, I used safe spots. The only character I have solo'd the DQ without safe spots is my ranger.

Actually, I've been here since beta.

So you cheated? Big deal. I'm so impressed. How do you carry around such a huge e-peen? I'm talking about a straight up fight, not using Turbine's inability to code. Anyone can use a safe spot.

And you didn't get hit ONCE, not at all? Not from an arrow, not from BB, nothing eh? I've seen rangers solo the DQ before, back when you could "prep" the gnolls with weakening so they couldn't hit you.

stockwizard5

03-14-2008, 12:44 PM

I'm talking about a straight up fight, not using Turbine's inability to code.

Bit undefined here don't you think?

Charming Archers
Shallow Lava
Telekenesis Cookies

Any of these "cheating"?

Or is Toe-to-Toe Melee the only method allowed?

Strakeln

03-14-2008, 01:07 PM

Actually, I've been here since beta.

So you cheated? Big deal. I'm so impressed. How do you carry around such a huge e-peen? I'm talking about a straight up fight, not using Turbine's inability to code. Anyone can use a safe spot.

And you didn't get hit ONCE, not at all? Not from an arrow, not from BB, nothing eh? I've seen rangers solo the DQ before, back when you could "prep" the gnolls with weakening so they couldn't hit you.I think what you meant to say was "I'm calling 50% BS on this statement", not 100%.

100% BS would mean that no one has solo'd the DQ.
50% BS would mean that people have solo'd the DQ but took damage.

I'm willing to bet that if you had been clear about what you were trying to say, not one person would have responded. There might be a lesson here for you. I mean, really, your big comeback in this thread is "but with no damage?"... c'mon dude, you can do better.

nbhs275

03-14-2008, 01:32 PM