Elminster

[neodranes]

I've been re reading a bunch of old books and have realized something, none of them have any real good content about elminster actually battle casting. Does anyone know of a book or series where he actually acts like the bad ass he is? Not like in making of a mage or the tiddle bit in :In Hell. Something that showcases his ability to take on epic names like manshoon and any red wizard or zhent.

Thanks

Me

[Uska]

I cant remember the books but there were some where elminster would blast those members of that evil race that disguises themselves as humans and elves mulgrym or something like that can really remember as my friend use to talk about them but we have moved many miles apart and dont talk much anymore or I would ask him. Me I dont know for sure as I hate the realms and want to nuke them from orbit just to be sure.

[Ryavin]

There is a trilogy where he does quite a bit of casting. It is in the Shandril saga. I forget the names of all the books but the first on is Spellfire. I get bored very easily with Greenwood and frankly don't see why he gets the recognition he does as an author-there are soooo many better.

[Uska]

There is a trilogy where he does quite a bit of casting. It is in the Shandril saga. I forget the names of all the books but the first on is Spellfire. I get bored very easily with Greenwood and frankly don't see why he gets the recognition he does as an author-there are soooo many better.

It's because he created the Realms and some fans of that and be fanatical, I just dont see the attraction to that world.

[Arleon]

Return of the Archwizards:
1. The Summoning
2. The Siege
3. The Sorcerer
though Elminster is MIA most of the time, for plot reasons you get to see the Chosen battle the Shade Enclave
that's probably something close-ish to what you're looking for in terms of epic spell battles
I haven't read Shandril saga or Shadows of the Avatar set, but I know El's in them so check those

[Deaths_ward]

It's because he created the Realms and some fans of that and be fanatical, I just dont see the attraction to that world.

Because the Realms are cool. Honestly I don't care who created them, I've had more fun playing in the Realms than most other places. Uberron (Known to most as Ebberon) works for DDO, but so much of what came out for it is just way to overpowered in PnP. Darksun was a fun campaign setting, but just wasn't all that interesting after the first couple of campaigns because what was fun was having a different environment to deal with, and that mystique was lost. Planescape, is a fun setting, but has little bearing on any other specific campain setting because it's mostly centered on plane hopping from what I remember, so whatever world you start on, you probably aren't staying on.

[Uska]

Because the Realms are cool. Honestly I don't care who created them, I've had more fun playing in the Realms than most other places. Uberron (Known to most as Ebberon) works for DDO, but so much of what came out for it is just way to overpowered in PnP. Darksun was a fun campaign setting, but just wasn't all that interesting after the first couple of campaigns because what was fun was having a different environment to deal with, and that mystique was lost. Planescape, is a fun setting, but has little bearing on any other specific campain setting because it's mostly centered on plane hopping from what I remember, so whatever world you start on, you probably aren't staying on.

Eberron overpowered compared to the realms you have to be kidding me The realms is the most overpowered piece of fluff since the first monty haul campiagn ever Realms best to nuke them from orbit to stop the mindnumbing powergamer boredom

[Karr]

The Realms was a great place as designed. There were 2 things that made it go downhill.

1. Novels based on D&D were becoming mainstream fantasy, attracting good authors, and taking off in sales.

2. The powers that be decided to make everything that happened in the novels "canon" and struggled to keep up with the weird ways in which authors could twist things. Leaving people asking "how'd they do that"? And of course the setting gurus would then make up an explanation, even if it involved creating a totally new power (Spellfire for example).

I can remember countless hours arguing back and forth over the nature of magic itself, why some spells work in anti-magic fields, how Spellfire works, sources of power for Deific vs Arcane vs Psionic etc. on the FR boards and mailing lists. Even the authors themselves would chime in with their take on "how it works". Which of course made for a great fantasy realm for epic stories, but really sucked for RP.

For my money, the best campaign setting thus far is still Greyhawk (although Eberron is now far more fleshed out and is a very close second, if not a tie).

[Baahb3]

The best books of El in hefty spell battle is the elminster series.

1. Elminster: Making of a Mage
2. Elminster in Myth Drannor
3. The Temptation of Elminster
4. Elminster in Hell

[MerlinSylver]

Are there three Faerun's? I don't remember Faerun being a power-pig world at all... there's only one supplier of magical items in the entirety of the realms, and that is a consortium of merchants working for mages. Sure, other purveyors carry a few items of power here and there, but there are no 'potion stores', 'wand vendors', and getting heals from clerics is not a simple matter of paying up. In every Forgotten Realms boxed set and packed adventure I ever used, the magical rewards were there, but hardly could be called Monty Haul.

Additionally, Eberron is not more fleshed out than Greyhawk, it's just newer. That's like saying that Smallville is more fleshed out than the Superman saga. The first four incarnations of the Dungeons & Dragons rules were based on Greyhawk, and all the information on races and classes were clearly stated as being the races and classes that inhabit the realm of Greyhawk. All of the 'named' spells in D&D (Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Tenser's Transformation, and Otto's Irresistible Dance) were so named after mages of the high sorcery of Greyhawk.

Please understand, I am not trying to start arguments or lord knoweldge. I've loved D&D from the start, and though I often get the rules of the various incarnations confused at times, the individual settings were what really drew me in, and made me into a world-builder myself. Not trying to be contentious, I just don't want to see two places I love maligned.

[MerlinSylver]

Oh, and before anyone jumps on my reference to Smallville, I love the show. I also love the Superman series of comic books. I was not saying that one was inferior or superior to another.

[Nevthial]

I like the Realms campaign setting, but I don't like Elminster. He wasn't even a good mage, he was just lucky. A real Archmage doesn't need the help of gods. Vecna was a true Archmage. He didn't gain the help of a god until he became one himself. ( The Serpent is his god, and the source of all magic in that campaign.)

[Karr]

Additionally, Eberron is not more fleshed out than Greyhawk, it's just newer. That's like saying that Smallville is more fleshed out than the Superman saga. The first four incarnations of the Dungeons & Dragons rules were based on Greyhawk, and all the information on races and classes were clearly stated as being the races and classes that inhabit the realm of Greyhawk. All of the 'named' spells in D&D (Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Tenser's Transformation, and Otto's Irresistible Dance) were so named after mages of the high sorcery of Greyhawk.

Please understand, I am not trying to start arguments or lord knoweldge. I've loved D&D from the start, and though I often get the rules of the various incarnations confused at times, the individual settings were what really drew me in, and made me into a world-builder myself. Not trying to be contentious, I just don't want to see two places I love maligned.

Greyhawk was well done, and if you read my post you'll see I even said its still my favorite. It was richly detailed but still left plenty to the imagination of whoever wanted to place their campaign on Oerth. What it LACKED (and this isnt a bad thing IMO) is the volume of novels that have populated subsequent settings for DnD. This is where I noted that FR got out of hand. Have you looked at how many novels are already set in Eberron? The novels are what I mean by "fleshed out". They provide not just more information on NPC's of the world, and political structures of the various countries, but give insight into how the "average" person reacts to various things around them ( i.e. adventurers). Greyhawk had several novels, but never had the volume of FR or Eberron.

Now I grant you, nothing says you HAVE to use whats in the novels as part of the setting for your games. However, for those who like the ultimate in detail, the powers that be are careful to make each novel and everything that happens in it part of the "canon" timeline. With more information and more detail comes more limits on what YOU can do with this world. When you get into discussions on the nature of magic, it can also change how you play your characters if they happen to be spellcasters.

[Uska]

The Realms was a great place as designed. There were 2 things that made it go downhill.

1. Novels based on D&D were becoming mainstream fantasy, attracting good authors, and taking off in sales.

2. The powers that be decided to make everything that happened in the novels "canon" and struggled to keep up with the weird ways in which authors could twist things. Leaving people asking "how'd they do that"? And of course the setting gurus would then make up an explanation, even if it involved creating a totally new power (Spellfire for example).

I can remember countless hours arguing back and forth over the nature of magic itself, why some spells work in anti-magic fields, how Spellfire works, sources of power for Deific vs Arcane vs Psionic etc. on the FR boards and mailing lists. Even the authors themselves would chime in with their take on "how it works". Which of course made for a great fantasy realm for epic stories, but really sucked for RP.

For my money, the best campaign setting thus far is still Greyhawk (although Eberron is now far more fleshed out and is a very close second, if not a tie).


QFT on greyhawk and Eberron dont like the realms and proably never will

[MerlinSylver]

Greyhawk was well done, and if you read my post you'll see I even said its still my favorite. It was richly detailed but still left plenty to the imagination of whoever wanted to place their campaign on Oerth. What it LACKED (and this isnt a bad thing IMO) is the volume of novels that have populated subsequent settings for DnD. This is where I noted that FR got out of hand. Have you looked at how many novels are already set in Eberron? The novels are what I mean by "fleshed out". They provide not just more information on NPC's of the world, and political structures of the various countries, but give insight into how the "average" person reacts to various things around them ( i.e. adventurers). Greyhawk had several novels, but never had the volume of FR or Eberron.

Now I grant you, nothing says you HAVE to use whats in the novels as part of the setting for your games. However, for those who like the ultimate in detail, the powers that be are careful to make each novel and everything that happens in it part of the "canon" timeline. With more information and more detail comes more limits on what YOU can do with this world. When you get into discussions on the nature of magic, it can also change how you play your characters if they happen to be spellcasters.

I'll admit that I have not read the Eberron books (I hesitate to call them novels, as an author). I flipped through a few of them at my local Hastings, and I was not impressed. The campaign setting itself is great, but the novels, though well written, don't seem all that original or entertaining. I feel this way about most books based on established settings, though, so Eberron is not alone. IMO, the vast majority of books based on movies, shows, and RPG campaign settings are barely more than published fan-fiction (though, I admit a weakness for the Quantum Leap series of novels....)

At any rate, I must have missed the tenor of your post. I agree that Eberron has far more non-rules related material on the market, but I am not altogether sure those books actually count as 'fleshing out' the setting as it does 'box it in'.

[Karr]

I'll admit that I have not read the Eberron books (I hesitate to call them novels, as an author). I flipped through a few of them at my local Hastings, and I was not impressed. The campaign setting itself is great, but the novels, though well written, don't seem all that original or entertaining. I feel this way about most books based on established settings, though, so Eberron is not alone. IMO, the vast majority of books based on movies, shows, and RPG campaign settings are barely more than published fan-fiction (though, I admit a weakness for the Quantum Leap series of novels....)

At any rate, I must have missed the tenor of your post. I agree that Eberron has far more non-rules related material on the market, but I am not altogether sure those books actually count as 'fleshing out' the setting as it does 'box it in'.

I might agree with you had WotC not made a decision with FR to make anything and everything from the novels canon. That was the whole point of my post. My disappointment with FR stems directly from that decision. Whether they choose to continue this in Eberron is unclear at this time, but given previous decisions by the people in charge I'd guess they will. If they do, then it is indeed "fleshed out" beyond what I feel is good for a RPG campaign setting.

On another related note though, have you looked into the Inquisitors series? The books are unrelated except that the main characters are all Inquisitives (detectives) - some professional, some amateur. They give you some excellent background material to work with in PnP campaigns without destroying the landscape or any major NPCs. Besides that they are reasonably well written.

[Merconas]

The Realms was a great place as designed.

At least someone made a good point..

The Realms--as designed for AD&D 1st Edition--was an excellent place to adventure with a good factual base to rely on when creating your adventures and moving about your world map; it was good right into 2nd edition, then was casually destroyed by overwriting. It was the authors--with their free reign of the realms and artisitic license that destroyed it in later 2nd edition; the world became overwritten, overpopulated, and over-ruled. There is now almost no place one can go in the realms that doesn't have a King, Pasha, Emir, Emporer, Dictator, or other lording it over the land; guilds run free and amok throughout the land, and secret societies plot in the dark shadowy corners of every saloon, restaurant, and bar. The level of technology has risen to the point of ludicrous, and six shooters are but a step away; "..it's how the west was won!" Absolute Tripe! I liked the realms when the whole of Undermountain remained unexplored, and some author hadn't riddled Faerun with holes at its deepest depth's; like some swiss cheese world with no more substance than a cored and wormy apple. In short; the Realms have become the epitomy of society overated, and quite unworth the trouble of even a short stop on the way to the dark corner's of the Abyss.

Cheers:eek:

[captain1z]

Elminster in hell.......... nuff said

[hydra_ex]

I don't want to further this more, but aren't you all hijacking the thread talking about campaigns versus what the OP was about? Try making another thread and posting a link instead of replying again here. Its in interesting discussion that deserves its own thread.

[Uska]

I don't want to further this more, but aren't you all hijacking the thread talking about campaigns versus what the OP was about? Try making another thread and posting a link instead of replying again here. Its in interesting discussion that deserves its own thread.

Arent you dragging up a post started months ago and last posted on a month ago?

[Twerpp]

I've been re reading a bunch of old books and have realized something, none of them have any real good content about elminster actually battle casting. Does anyone know of a book or series where he actually acts like the bad ass he is? Not like in making of a mage or the tiddle bit in :In Hell. Something that showcases his ability to take on epic names like manshoon and any red wizard or zhent.

Thanks

Me

I remember something about him wining a Biggest Fireball Contest? Something mentioned about a permanent crater in the ground? i hope Im not mixing my books up it has been a while. Pretty baddass though.

[Aspenor]

I remember something about him wining a Biggest Fireball Contest? Something mentioned about a permanent crater in the ground? i hope Im not mixing my books up it has been a while. Pretty baddass though.

That was a short story by Greenwood. What actually happened was Elminster cast a fireball which ended with several (yes, several) meteor-sized balls of fire descending from the sky and obliterating miles of wildnerness. The other challenger's fireball, comparatively, might as well have been a matchstick.

[shores11]

There is a trilogy where he does quite a bit of casting. It is in the Shandril saga. I forget the names of all the books but the first on is Spellfire. I get bored very easily with Greenwood and frankly don't see why he gets the recognition he does as an author-there are soooo many better.

He is the creator of Elminster also as well as the Forgotten Realms. His popularity is based on the most popular world D&D has ever had. I loved the Forgotten Realms and was initially upset that DDO did not choose FR for its base. I would still have preferred it but Ebberon is ok.

[Aspenor]

Elminster isn't a battle-mage. He's quick, extremely intelligent, and highly innovative. While he may have cast the greatest fireball ever conceived in the Forgotten Realms, he prefers to make his offensive spell casting more subtle.

[SquelchHU]

The trouble with any narrative based on D&D but that is not D&D, especially novels is that the main characters tend to turn into self inserts for the authors. Elminster is not only not an exception, but he is one of the biggest offenders. This is what happens when the rules are not defined but are supposed to be. Novels not based on such strict things do this far less frequently. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find 'Aim for the horn!' style scenarios to be trite, if not offensive. For those unfamiliar with the reference that is what happens when a given tactic is clearly ineffective, but instead of choosing a different tactic that would work better the character instead effectively cheats to make it work anyways. This directly leads to the reader not taking them seriously because they are not able to succeed on their own merits, they need author fiat to get anywhere. Kind of like very poorly made characters in tabletop. As D&D in any campaign setting is highly meritocratic, your character not being effective on their own merits raises a number of uncomfortable questions regarding his or her future as an active participant in the adventure, much less a living participant in the game world.