Top 10 reasons to remain pure (Paladin)

[GeneFrenkle]

Here is my top 10 list for why you should keep your Paladin a pure build instead of multi-classing.
I've given justification for each of these reasons so they should be clear to anyone reading this.

1) Devine Light
With DLIII you can inflict 14d6 damage to surrounding undead if the DC is succesfull = ( 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod)
This is a Paladin's bread and butter against undead.
Throwing this out will inflict damage on several undead and pull aggro on your toon.
When this happens you can alternate between smite,cleave, great cleave to polish off hordes of undead.

2) Smite Evil (If successful increase damage by Paladin Level)
Smite Evil is often usefull once you already have aggro and have made your first hit. Many times after the first two hits,
throwing in a smite evil will complete the kill.

3) LOH (10 + Paladin Level) x Char Mod hit points
With a high Charisma bonus you are going to be quite valuable when it comes to saving lives or destroying undead bosses.
drop 3-4 LOH on a vampire in rapid succession and he's done. In other situations you can pull yourself or other parties members back from death when the casters are not able to keep up with the damage being dolled out.

4) Turn Undead check result based on cleric level or (Paladin Level -3)
This can be further improved upon by taking the improved turning series of enhancements making you as effective as a cleric.
At level 16, A pure Paladin with Improved Turning III and 28 Char should be able to
turn mobs with HD 20 or lower on average.

5) Turn Undead damage based on cleric level or (Paladin Level -3)
This can be further improved upon by taking the improved turning series of enhancements making you as effective as a cleric.
More damage is always better :)

6) Spell Count - at Paladin Level 16 you get 3 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, 2 3rd level spells and 2 4th level spells.

7) Resist Energy duration based on caster level (paladin level)

8) Death Ward duration based on caster level (Paladin level)

9) Enhancement Respec Ability - A paladin gains only a limited number of feats as he progresses and therefore there isn't much room for creativity in that department. Since this is the case it means that a Paladin's functionality is tied mostly to enhancments. You can easily repsec a Paladin for different roles just through enhancements alone. You can easily go from an undead killer to a moderately strong healer just by changing the enhancements selected. This allows you to go from an offensive player to a defensive player if the mood should strike you.

10) Who knows what the futre holds - If you splash levels now, you may end up gimped in the long run.
Why risk gimping the long term potential of your build for short term gratification now?

[Lithic]

Here is my top 10 list for why you should keep your Paladin a pure build instead of multi-classing.
I've given justification for each of these reasons so they should be clear to anyone reading this.

1) Devine Light
With DLIII you can inflict 14d6 damage to surrounding undead if the DC is succesfull = ( 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod)
This is a Paladin's bread and butter against undead.
Throwing this out will inflict damage on several undead and pull aggro on your toon.
When this happens you can alternate between smite,cleave, great cleave to polish off hordes of undead.

Its kind of nice, but meh. DL3 is a lvl 12ish enhancement anyway, so you don't need the extra levels. Not really a reason to stay pure past the level you get it.

2) Smite Evil (If successful increase damage by Paladin Level)
Smite Evil is often usefull once you already have aggro and have made your first hit. Many times after the first two hits,
throwing in a smite evil will complete the kill.

Smite isnt all that usefull right now due to its extremely limited uses. If they turned it into a 10second cooldown ability then it would be much better. In any case, losing a few paladin levels doesnt make this ability much less powerfull (lvl 16 vs lvl 10 for example), therefore I wouldnt consider this a reason to stay pure all the way to 16.

3) LOH (10 + Paladin Level) x Char Mod hit points
With a high Charisma bonus you are going to be quite valuable when it comes to saving lives or destroying undead bosses.
drop 3-4 LOH on a vampire in rapid succession and he's done. In other situations you can pull yourself or other parties members back from death when the casters are not able to keep up with the damage being dolled out.

Another ability that suffers little for the loss of a few paladin levels. The formula for LOH is much more centered on your charisma bonus, which is not related to your paladin level. Sure a lvl 16 paladin will heal more than a lvl 10 paladin, but only by 6x cha mod more. Hardly worth staying pure just for that.

4) Turn Undead check result based on cleric level or (Paladin Level -3)
This can be further improved upon by taking the improved turning series of enhancements making you as effective as a cleric.
At level 16, A pure Paladin with Improved Turning III and 28 Char should be able to
turn mobs with HD 20 or lower on average.

Turn undead is a joke even for undead specced clerics. For a paladin, its like a joke that nobody gets. Staying pure for TU is about the worst reason you could come up with

5) Turn Undead damage based on cleric level or (Paladin Level -3)
This can be further improved upon by taking the improved turning series of enhancements making you as effective as a cleric.
More damage is always better :)
Same as above. TU=Joke.

6) Spell Count - at Paladin Level 16 you get 3 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, 2 3rd level spells and 2 4th level spells.

More spells is always nice. Unfortunately paladins don't get any awesome spells that are unavailable to other classes. Rangers get barkskin. Paladins get... umm angel skin? Meh. If better spells come around, this could be a consideration, but right now I can't see staying pure for the spells.

7) Resist Energy duration based on caster level (paladin level)

No reason to keep getting paladin levels past 11 for resist energy. Lvl 11 makes it a 30pt resist, and it lasts long enough that 1 or 2 casts per shrine is plenty. Unless you are buffing a whole raid, or castig all 5 resists on everyone, you don't need it to last any longer than 11 mins.

8) Death Ward duration based on caster level (Paladin level)

Paladins get deathward at lvl 11ish IIRC. 11mins of deathward is plenty, unless you are buffing your whole party. Even then, the extra few mins is hardly worth taking more paladin levels if that is your only reason.

9) Enhancement Respec Ability - A paladin gains only a limited number of feats as he progresses and therefore there isn't much room for creativity in that department. Since this is the case it means that a Paladin's functionality is tied mostly to enhancments. You can easily repsec a Paladin for different roles just through enhancements alone. You can easily go from an undead killer to a moderately strong healer just by changing the enhancements selected. This allows you to go from an offensive player to a defensive player if the mood should strike you.

Enhancements favor multiclassed characters. This is due to the way the cost increases so much faster than the benefits you gain, with few exceptions. You gain much more (Enhancement-wise) by splashing a few levels of fighter, or cleric, or rogue than you do taking the last 2-4 levels of paladin.

10) Who knows what the futre holds - If you splash levels now, you may end up gimped in the long run.
Why risk gimping the long term potential of your build for short term gratification now?
Building based on the unknown is a bad idea. Things could go either way. You could gimp yourself by losing out on paladin feats/enhancements for the highest levels, or those levels could be bland and uninteresting and you would have lost out on everything that multiclassing could have brought you


Comments in Red.

IMO, your reasons are very poor ones. The only good reason to stay pure paladin is because you WANT to stay pure and think it will lead to a fun character. Unfortunately there are no good powergamer reasons to stay pure paladin.

[Angelus_dead]

IMO, your reasons are very poor ones.
I have to assume he was being sarcastic.


Unfortunately there are no good powergamer reasons to stay pure paladin.
Note that from an in-character perspective, there is nothing wrong with a character trying to maximize his own potential. In fact, if Paladins are dedicated to defeating the forces of evil, then it behooves them to seek training from whatever source would most help defeat fiendish outsiders.

[Slayer918]

Top 10 Reasons to Multiclass your paladin:

1.) Fighter Feats - 1-3 of em and you can still get to 12 paladin

2.) UMD - 1 level of rogue gets you +9 UMD from full ranks

3.) Evasion - self explanitory

4.) Enhancements - Fighter's get a lot of nice level 1-4 enhancements (confirm crit, tower shield mastery, armor mastery)

5.) Divine Vitality - 1 level of cleric and 1 ap and you can give a caster quite a few sps back

6.) More SP - 1 level of cleric or sorceror will net you more sp than that 1 level of paladin

7.) ok thats all I can think of right now... but (atleast for me) any one of 1-3ish are worth more than all of yours combined...

JMO

[Ciaran]

Divine Light isn't that great at all. I tried it out at 14 and ran The Graverobber on elite. I was disappointed with it.

I turn undead on favor runs, and that's about it.

Just voicing my opinion that DL isn't really worth it, not to me, because I haven't found it to be all that useful.

[GeneFrenkle]

Comments in Red.

IMO, your reasons are very poor ones. The only good reason to stay pure paladin is because you WANT to stay pure and think it will lead to a fun character. Unfortunately there are no good powergamer reasons to stay pure paladin.

Really? OK let me address your concerns

Devine Light

Its kind of nice, but meh. DL3 is a lvl 12ish enhancement anyway, so you don't need the extra levels. Not really a reason to stay pure past the level you get it.
It has to do with maximizing your damage potential which is directly tied to Paladin Level in the DC!

Smite Evil
Smite isnt all that usefull right now due to its extremely limited uses. If they turned it into a 10second cooldown ability then it would be much better. In any case, losing a few paladin levels doesnt make this ability much less powerfull (lvl 16 vs lvl 10 for example), therefore I wouldnt consider this a reason to stay pure all the way to 16.

We both know that it could be better but so could any feat for any class right? Besides you told me not to speculate on what might happen in the future. Did you read my post entirely? Smite is very useful if you understand how it works and how to use it properly. If you swing and miss you wasted a smite. Therefore you need to use it when you are sure to hit. In order to maximize effectiveness you should make sure you have aggro already and are facing your enemy while swinging. In those cases it almost always hits and hits hard. Damage is directly tied to your Paladin Level!


LOH
Another ability that suffers little for the loss of a few paladin levels. The formula for LOH is much more centered on your charisma bonus, which is not related to your paladin level. Sure a lvl 16 paladin will heal more than a lvl 10 paladin, but only by 6x cha mod more. Hardly worth staying pure just for that.

Well my Charisma is 32 so I'll do the calculation based on that.
Level 10 Paladin ( 10 +10) x 11 = 220
Level 16 Paladin ( 10+16) x 11 = 286
A 30% increase in Healing/Undead Damage.
If you have Extra LOH III that's 66x4 = 264 extra HP of healing power between rests.


Turn Undead

Turn undead is a joke even for undead specced clerics. For a paladin, its like a joke that nobody gets. Staying pure for TU is about the worst reason you could come up with

Really you believe that? With Improved Turning a Paladin is just as good at Turning as a cleric. If you add sacred items, and high charisma bonus (+11 in my case) then they do start to become quite effective.


Spell Count
More spells is always nice. Unfortunately paladins don't get any awesome spells that are unavailable to other classes. Rangers get barkskin. Paladins get... umm angel skin? Meh. If better spells come around, this could be a consideration, but right now I can't see staying pure for the spells.

OK, sure you can get clickies for just about anything in the game including barkskin etc. However, how many people to you know with Death ward clickies? How many times have you heard someone turn down an Deathward when offered to the party?


Resist Energy

No reason to keep getting paladin levels past 11 for resist energy. Lvl 11 makes it a 30pt resist, and it lasts long enough that 1 or 2 casts per shrine is plenty. Unless you are buffing a whole raid, or castig all 5 resists on everyone, you don't need it to last any longer than 11 mins.

You're joking right? 11 minutes? Ok for lowbie stuff that might suffice, but for raids etc you aren't going to want to stop and rebuff everyone every 10 minutes. It's a pain in ass.

Death Ward
Paladins get deathward at lvl 11ish IIRC. 11mins of deathward is plenty, unless you are buffing your whole party. Even then, the extra few mins is hardly worth taking more paladin levels if that is your only reason.

Same argument as above.

Enhancement Respec Ability

Enhancements favor multiclassed characters. This is due to the way the cost increases so much faster than the benefits you gain, with few exceptions. You gain much more (Enhancement-wise) by splashing a few levels of fighter, or cleric, or rogue than you do taking the last 2-4 levels of paladin.

I'm talking about several Paladin enhancements that reinforce each other for healing or killing undead. Look at the Paladin enhancements offered many of them complement each other nicely. You can really strengthen your Paladin in certain areas just by focusing on specific sets of enhancements.

Who knows what the futre holds
Things could go either way. You could gimp yourself by losing out on paladin feats/enhancements for the highest levels, or those levels could be bland and uninteresting and you would have lost out on everything that multiclassing could have brought you.

There's already a great deal of anticipation for Paladin improvements in upcoming mods so I think it's pretty safe to assume at this point.

[captain1z]

sorry to be a downer ..... thats not usually me but.......

I have a paladin 13 pali/ 2 fighter with 30 charisma


1- divine light = I had it for a while they seem to always make their the damage is not inspiring at 14 -84 (about 50 average if they fail save)
2- Smite evil = nice when it hits and crits..... frustrating when it misses and/ or doesnt crit
3- Lay on hands I admit is nice both offensively and defensively
4- turn undead just doesnt work even at 30 charisma with a sacred item
5- see the above
6- spell count, I wish I could cast deathward. I do regret not being able to..... but I have a clicky (not the same really)
7- past 11th your not missing anything in the resist department
8- again DW ... wish I had it
9- Not sure I fully undestand this perk over another class so I wont comment
10- The future we will see. Not being able to reach 20 in pali may hurt a lot or not at all.

I can agree with some of your 10 at least.
Bear in mind Im not in a good mood thnx to a jerk of a client who needs to be choke slammed........ whats the saying dont post while drunk, sleepy or angry. Im only doing one of the above but wish it were all 3 right now.



*just read your comment above about the 11min buff....... honestly 11 mins is fine. With a paladins limited sp you cant afford to buff more than yourself and 1 other and still SP for later use. You cant really go 11 mins w/o finishing the quest, finding a shrine or being debuffed anyway. Unless you dropped all your SP in the begining you should be able to rebuff at least once more. 11 mins is more than enough* IMO

[RavenStormclaw]

Top 10 Reasons to Multiclass your paladin:

1.) Fighter Feats - 1-3 of em and you can still get to 12 paladin

2.) UMD - 1 level of rogue gets you +9 UMD from full ranks

3.) Evasion - self explanitory

4.) Enhancements - Fighter's get a lot of nice level 1-4 enhancements (confirm crit, tower shield mastery, armor mastery)

5.) Divine Vitality - 1 level of cleric and 1 ap and you can give a caster quite a few sps back

6.) More SP - 1 level of cleric or sorceror will net you more sp than that 1 level of paladin

7.) ok thats all I can think of right now... but (atleast for me) any one of 1-3ish are worth more than all of yours combined...

JMO

Ummm...evasion...yeah right. I guess if your Paladin is wearing light armor and has no AC. Correct if I am wrong (and I'm sure I am not) evasion only works in light armor which most fighters/paladins don't wear. so evasions if very limited.

[GeneFrenkle]

sorry to be a downer ..... thats not usually me but.......

I have a paladin 13 pali/ 2 fighter with 30 charisma


1- divine light = I had it for a while they seem to always make their the damage is not inspiring at 14 -84 (about 50 average if they fail save)

Again the higher your paladin level the less likely they will save. Also that's 50 average per target it's an AOE damage.

2- Smite evil = nice when it hits and crits..... frustrating when it misses and/ or doesnt crit

Read my entire post to see how to use if effectively and not miss. (keep in mind it only works on non-good targets)

4- turn undead just doesnt work even at 30 charisma with a sacred item

Once again the higher your Paladin level the more effective it will be.

7- past 11th your not missing anything in the resist department

It's a duration issue.



Just some things to consider see my comments in red.

[Lifespawn]

Ummm...evasion...yeah right. I guess if your Paladin is wearing light armor and has no AC. Correct if I am wrong (and I'm sure I am not) evasion only works in light armor which most fighters/paladins don't wear. so evasions if very limited.

mithril breatplate is light armor and only 1 ac loss over fullplate so evasion is very viable.

The ONLY things that are bonuses to pallies are resists maxing out at 11 and ofcourse better lay on hands your other examples are not a reason to take 5 more lvls of pally and human pallies are abundant and taking human improved healing boosts loh.

How many pallies have over 400 hp's? any pure pallies over 400?and pure palliesover 400 that can do anything other than have alot of hp's?

Just so you know the answers are not many if any and none and none.

Taking a lvl of wizard for extend would be better than taking 5 more lvls of pally for the duration.

Turn undead is a JOKE period a Cleric having the feats for turn undead and all the enhancments plus the reaver gloves and a 30 cha turns almost nothing i know from experience because i specced my cleric for this only to spit at it in disgust it is pathetic.

[Angelus_dead]

With DLIII you can inflict 14d6 damage to surrounding undead if the DC is succesfull = ( 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod)
This is a Paladin's bread and butter against undead.
Ha ha. You do maybe 50 damage... against undead who have 500-700 hp. Maybe burning all 10 of your turn uses could defeat them... and then you're done.

Besides, the idea of a paladin defeating a mob of undead is laughable. How's he going to kill them before a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric busts out an AOE spell that does 200+ per hit?


Smite Evil is often usefull once you already have aggro and have made your first hit. Many times after the first two hits,
throwing in a smite evil will complete the kill.
Smite evil gives you what, an extra 100 damage on a swing? We're level 16 here. The monsters under discussion are Bezerikas with 600 hp or Pit Fiends with 90,000 hp (and up). Any effect that doesn't give you a bonus on every swing over an extended time period doesn't really count as improving your damage output.


drop 3-4 LOH on a vampire in rapid succession and he's done. In other
If there is a sorcerer in the room, the vampire is done. Automatically and by default. Nothing a paladin (or barbarian, or anyone else) can do will kill that vampire before the sorc gets it.


5) Turn Undead damage based on cleric level or (Paladin Level -3)
Undeads where damage vaguely matters are named things like Doomsphere, Elite Honor Guard, or Black Abbot. Guess what Turning does to those guys?


6) Spell Count - at Paladin Level 16 you get 3 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells, 2 3rd level spells and 2 4th level spells.
This is a very good point. Theoretically the increased spell list would give a reason to keep taking paladin levels... but that would only work if paladins had good spells on their list.

Hopefully someday Turbine will add some good paladin spells, and this reason will start to make sense. But it doesn't yet.


7) Resist Energy duration based on caster level (paladin level)
The 12 minutes you get from paladin12 is more than enough. And its not as if the cleric, wizard, sorcerer, and ranger can't cover resists just as easily.


8) Death Ward duration based on caster level (Paladin level)
Ok, there's this quest called "Splinterskull". You run it, and then you have this thingy called a "Visor of Flesh Render Guards".

Ok also, there's this class called "Cleric". They have three 8th level spell slots, but zero good 8th level spells. So, they all learn Mass Deathward, and they cast it at the drop of a hat, and it hits everybody in the room.



9) Enhancement Respec Ability - A paladin gains only a limited number of feats as he progresses and therefore there isn't much room for creativity in that department. Since this is the case it means that a Paladin's functionality is tied mostly to enhancments. You can easily repsec a Paladin for different roles just through enhancements alone.
All the good paladin enhancements are available at pal12. From then on you continue gaining APs at the same rate regardless of your class, and you can buy more pal enhancements if you choose. Having levels in any other class unlocks a big list of useful minor benefits for cheap AP costs.


10) Who knows what the futre holds - If you splash levels now, you may end up gimped in the long run.
Why risk gimping the long term potential of your build for short term gratification now?
You are quite correct. By far, the most important reason to stay pure paladin is in the hope that someday in the future, Turbine will improve class balance so that paladin levels 12+ give something worthwhile.

[GeneFrenkle]

mithril breatplate is light armor and only 1 ac loss over fullplate so evasion is very viable.

human pallies are abundant and taking human improved healing boosts loh.



How do you figure that, when the formula for LOH is (10+Paladin Level) x Charisma mod.
Healing doesn't factor in at all.

[Lithic]

Im going to address your rebuttal in green. But first, I would like to know if you are saying staying pure is necessary to maximize your paladinish potential, or necessary for an overall paladinish character. There is a large difference. The first is self evident, the second compares a theoretical lvl 16 (at this time) paladin vs a theoretical Xpaladin/Yotherclass. I'm going to assume the latter.


Really? OK let me address your concerns

Devine Light

We both know that it could be better but so could any feat for any class right? Besides you told me not to speculate on what might happen in the future. Did you read my post entirely? Smite is very useful if you understand how it works and how to use it properly. If you swing and miss you wasted a smite. Therefore you need to use it when you are sure to hit. In order to maximize effectiveness you should make sure you have aggro already and are facing your enemy while swinging. In those cases it almost always hits and hits hard. Damage is directly tied to your Paladin Level!


Smite is nice. I never said it wasnt. Ive got 3 levels of paladin on my rogue and I smite every red and orange name I can get in range of. I am saying that smite at lvl 12 for example, is not much worse than smite at lvl 16. Compared to the increased damage of say 4 fighter levels (3 free combat feats), smite just cannot compete. Sure your heavy pick smite crits might be less potent, but you gain so much more from multiclassing to fighter. Taken another way, would a SLIGHT increase in damage to 5 attacks per rest really be worth losing out on all of the potential of splashing?

LOH
Another ability that suffers little for the loss of a few paladin levels. The formula for LOH is much more centered on your charisma bonus, which is not related to your paladin level. Sure a lvl 16 paladin will heal more than a lvl 10 paladin, but only by 6x cha mod more. Hardly worth staying pure just for that.

Well my Charisma is 32 so I'll do the calculation based on that.
Level 10 Paladin ( 10 +10) x 11 = 220
Level 16 Paladin ( 10+16) x 11 = 286
A 30% increase in Healing/Undead Damage.
If you have Extra LOH III that's 66x4 = 264 extra HP of healing power between rests.

264 extra hp between rests is the equivalent of 2 heal scrolls, or 10 shots of cure serious wand from a decently enhanced cleric.. Nice to have, but hardly a significant reason to stay pure. ONE level of cleric would give you another 150 or so spell points for more total healing, not to mention the first tier DV's. One level of sorcerer would give you even more sp for your own CLW/CMW spells. The higher bursting can be nice vs undead mobs, or to heal 700hp barbarians, but a 220pt LOH is just as effective as a 284pt LOH to save someone from being killed with the next monster's attack (The best use of LOH in my experience). In non-immediate-death situations, theres loads of time for your cure wands, potions, or light and mod spells.

Turn Undead

Turn undead is a joke even for undead specced clerics. For a paladin, its like a joke that nobody gets. Staying pure for TU is about the worst reason you could come up with

Really you believe that? With Improved Turning a Paladin is just as good at Turning as a cleric. If you add sacred items, and high charisma bonus (+11 in my case) then they do start to become quite effective.


Paladins CANNOT be as effective at turning as clerics. They get a 3 level penalty, and any feat/enhancement for turning that a paladin can take, a cleric can also take (and possibly a better version at that). As others have mentioned in many threads over on the cleric forums, a fully specced turning cleric has no chance of destroying undead in level appropriate quests, and little chance of turning them. For favor runs 8 levels below you it can be nice (Catacombs elite at lvl 16 for example), but otherwise I wouldnt even put turn undead on my hotbar.

Spell Count
More spells is always nice. Unfortunately paladins don't get any awesome spells that are unavailable to other classes. Rangers get barkskin. Paladins get... umm angel skin? Meh. If better spells come around, this could be a consideration, but right now I can't see staying pure for the spells.

OK, sure you can get clickies for just about anything in the game including barkskin etc. However, how many people to you know with Death ward clickies? How many times have you heard someone turn down an Deathward when offered to the party?


EVERYONE IN MY GUILD HAS DEATHWARD CLICKIES. Its called "Visor of the fleshrender". Most of us have 3-5 of them on a character. 2 of them are the equivalent of 1 lvl 14 cast. There aren't that many quests where you need more deathward than 14 mins per shrine, and in those quests the cleric will almost certainly have the spell. In any case, deathward is not unique to paladins as barkskin is to rangers. That one spell that is real nice, the rest as hardly worth sacrificing 3 more paladin levels for. Once you get that spell, the rest of the levels are available for multiclassing.

Resist Energy

No reason to keep getting paladin levels past 11 for resist energy. Lvl 11 makes it a 30pt resist, and it lasts long enough that 1 or 2 casts per shrine is plenty. Unless you are buffing a whole raid, or castig all 5 resists on everyone, you don't need it to last any longer than 11 mins.

You're joking right? 11 minutes? Ok for lowbie stuff that might suffice, but for raids etc you aren't going to want to stop and rebuff everyone every 10 minutes. It's a pain in ass.

You seriously think rebuffing every 16mins is THAT much better than every 11 mins? What torture lvl 1-8 must be for you. Sure its nice for the buff to last a little longer, but hardly worth sacrificing the potential of multiclassing. You know what would be better than taking 5 more paladin levels? One level of wizard for +150sp, and extend metamagic for 22min resists. Plus you get 2min shield spells, jump spell, magic missile for ranged aggro gathering, and grease fun. One level of wizard makes all your spells last much longer than they could pure.

Death Ward

Paladins get deathward at lvl 11ish IIRC. 11mins of deathward is plenty, unless you are buffing your whole party. Even then, the extra few mins is hardly worth taking more paladin levels if that is your only reason.

Same argument as above.
Same argument as above.

Enhancement Respec Ability

Enhancements favor multiclassed characters. This is due to the way the cost increases so much faster than the benefits you gain, with few exceptions. You gain much more (Enhancement-wise) by splashing a few levels of fighter, or cleric, or rogue than you do taking the last 2-4 levels of paladin.

I'm talking about several Paladin enhancements that reinforce each other for healing or killing undead. Look at the Paladin enhancements offered many of them complement each other nicely. You can really strengthen your Paladin in certain areas just by focusing on specific sets of enhancements.

You dont need to max your paladin level to get access to all those enhancements. Once you get to 14 or so, you have access to all the enhancements (except maybe bulwark 4, which provoked a torrent of anger due to its 8pt cost and almost every poster in the thread said they would never consider it). Multiclassing a level or two will not keep you from taking all the paladin enhancements you want, and you get some of the lowbie enhancements from other classes. 2 levels of fighter get you fighter tactics, str, and toughness enhancements. Caster classes get you spell point enhancements. A cleric level gets you DV's, spell point, and extra turning 1 for more dvs hehe. Multiclassing 2 levels wont prevent you from taking the good paladin enhancements, but it lets you take some of the better low level enhancemnets from other classes. Sounds like a better option to me.

Who knows what the futre holds
Things could go either way. You could gimp yourself by losing out on paladin feats/enhancements for the highest levels, or those levels could be bland and uninteresting and you would have lost out on everything that multiclassing could have brought you.

There's already a great deal of anticipation for Paladin improvements in upcoming mods so I think it's pretty safe to assume at this point.

IF you want to assume that the devs will turn paladins into powerhouses that make barbarians quake in their robes, then there is nothing I can say to dissuade you. Assume away. Building a character on what you hope will come into the game is not something i would ever risk.

[Brutous]

Comments in Red.

IMO, your reasons are very poor ones. The only good reason to stay pure paladin is because you WANT to stay pure and think it will lead to a fun character. Unfortunately there are no good powergamer reasons to stay pure paladin.

Perhaps you should consider what he is trying to sell to people who are thinking about building a paladin?
Personally I find it a challange and I think I will build a pally tonight or tomorow night. So there... :).....

[GeneFrenkle]

Ha ha. You do maybe 50 damage... against undead who have 500-700 hp. Maybe burning all 10 of your turn uses could defeat them... and then you're done.

Besides, the idea of a paladin defeating a mob of undead is laughable. How's he going to kill them before a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric busts out an AOE spell that does 200+ per hit?

I explained exactly how it's done effectively and quickly. It involves using DL combined with Cleave, Great Cleave and Smite Evil.



If there is a sorcerer in the room, the vampire is done. Automatically and by default. Nothing a paladin (or barbarian, or anyone else) can do will kill that vampire before the sorc gets it.


With High Char LOH is more effective on a single vamp than firewall, because you can spam it.

[Angelus_dead]

I explained exactly how it's done effectively and quickly. It involves using DL combined with Cleave, Great Cleave and Smite Evil.
The method you described does not work. It fails at step 1: Pull aggro with Divine Light.


With High Char LOH is more effective on a single vamp than firewall, because you can spam it.
Have you seen a sorcerer?

[GeneFrenkle]

How many pallies have over 400 hp's? any pure pallies over 400?

Even if you only had 250 HP as a Paladin with 4 LOH hitting for over 250, that's like having 1250 HP total, in banks of 250. It just takes the press of a single button to switch banks. So yes in essence there are many pure pallies with over 400 HP.

[captain1z]

sorry to have added to the derailment of this thread.

Im sure the reasons you posted originally were more motivational than arguementive.

that is all.

[JFeenstra]

OK, sure you can get clickies for just about anything in the game including barkskin etc. However, how many people to you know with Death ward clickies? How many times have you heard someone turn down an Deathward when offered to the party?

anyone who's run tangleroot more than, twice, will likely have a deathward clicky


You're joking right? 11 minutes? Ok for lowbie stuff that might suffice, but for raids etc you aren't going to want to stop and rebuff everyone every 10 minutes. It's a pain in ass.most people have items that cover any resists they need, and if they don't 11 mins will be enough to get them through whatever is going to be dealing the elemental damage to them...if longer times are needed a cleric or caster with extend is going to take care of it....in your typical raid on my caster or cleric i hand out MAYBE one resist the whole time.


Same argument as above.mass deathward + extend gives pallys no reason to carry the spell


With High Char LOH is more effective on a single vamp than firewall, because you can spam it.have you ever heard of disintegrate? mine does 600-1200 points of damage and i can spam it and scorching ray for around 1500 damage a second, plus i can throw as many of them as i have sp (2300 @ lvl 16 without a +3 cha tome)...you really think you can out dps a sorc on undead? care to test out that theory? lets go run some orchard quests and see whos got the higher kill count

[GeneFrenkle]

Im going to address your rebuttal in green. But first, I would like to know if you are saying staying pure is necessary to maximize your paladinish potential, or necessary for an overall paladinish character. There is a large difference. The first is self evident, the second compares a theoretical lvl 16 (at this time) paladin vs a theoretical Xpaladin/Yotherclass. I'm going to assume the latter.

I'm not saying it's necessary at all. Anyone is free to do whatever they desire. All I'm doing is giving reasons why someone would want to remain pure from a game play point of view, not RP. All the arguments I've heard against staying pure boil down to either increasing DPS, or increasing SP. My Paladin builds are not designed to maximize DPS. They are intended to be a layer of protection between the MOBs and the squishies. If you read my posts in other threads related to Paladins I've stated that Paladins are not good Front line combatants in DDO. They are excellent backup fighters and life savers.
When it comes to spell points why does a Paladin need more? The first level wizard spells are basically useless anyway. Plus a level of Wiz/Sorc would come at the expense of 1 BAB, not worth it.

[JFeenstra]

I'm not saying it's necessary at all. Anyone is free to do whatever they desire. All I'm doing is giving reasons why someone would want to remain pure from a game play point of view, not RP. All the arguments I've heard against staying pure boil down to either increasing DPS, or increasing SP. My Paladin builds are not designed to maximize DPS. They are intended to be a layer of protection between the MOBs and the squishies. If you read my posts in other threads related to Paladins I've stated that Paladins are not good Front line combatants in DDO. They are excellent backup fighters and life savers.
When it comes to spell points why does a Paladin need more? The first level wizard spells are basically useless anyway. Plus a level of Wiz/Sorc would come at the expense of 1 BAB, not worth it.

jump is one of the most useful spells in the game, and if you need the +1 BAB to hit anything then you need to reroll

[GeneFrenkle]

you really think you can out dps a sorc on undead? care to test out that theory? lets go run some orchard quests and see whos got the higher kill count

Yeah that would be an interesting experiment. It would have to be a two man operation each one working independently for themselves. IE you get no outside help. Well see what happens when you go in the first room and start spamming firewall and aggroing everything in sight.

[JFeenstra]

Yeah that would be an interesting experiment. It would have to be a two man operation each one working independently for themselves. IE you get no outside help. Well see what happens when you go in the first room and start spamming firewall and aggroing everything in sight.

it all dies in approx 35 seconds

you're talking to someone whos sorc can solo every quest outside of the vale that doesnt require more than one person, raids included

[Darken-Rahl]

How many pallies have over 400 hp's? any pure pallies over 400?and pure palliesover 400 that can do anything other than have alot of hp's?

Just so you know the answers are not many if any and none and none.

My Drow Paladin started with a 9 con and now has 369hps. I did take 2 levels of fighter but, that makes absolutely no difference for hps. I have only used a +1con tome. So, its pretty easy to see that a paladin get get alot more than 400 hps.

[bobbryan2]

Yeah that would be an interesting experiment. It would have to be a two man operation each one working independently for themselves. IE you get no outside help. Well see what happens when you go in the first room and start spamming firewall and aggroing everything in sight.

Everything in the quest dies. That's what happens.

If you think the sorc will die, you've run with bad sorcs. There's no way a melee can hold aggro on undead in a firewall.

[JFeenstra]

There's no way a melee can hold aggro.fixed

unless of course the mobs are immune to fire, cold and electricity

elantra doesnt have much in the way of acid spells

[NKspeed]

How many pallies have over 400 hp's? any pure pallies over 400?and pure palliesover 400 that can do anything other than have alot of hp's?


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5164/94902301lk0.jpg

That answer your question? oh and for the record here is my tome usage. Str +1, Dex +3, Con +1, Int +1, Wis +2. Cha +2. Tomorrow night is my 40th reaver so a +3 Con tome would give me even more HP.

I also got 4 LoH, each hits for 236. And just enough mana to buff a whole group, saving clerics and casters plenty of mana

[captain1z]

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5164/94902301lk0.jpg

That answer your question? oh and for the record here is my tome usage. Str +1, Dex +3, Con +1, Int +1, Wis +2. Cha +2. Tomorrow night is my 40th reaver so a +3 Con tome would give me even more HP.

I also got 4 LoH, each hits for 236. And just enough mana to buff a whole group, saving clerics and casters plenty of mana




very nice build. 1st pure pali Ive seen that looks like a match for a fighter. What feats did you take?

[NKspeed]

very nice build. 1st pure pali Ive seen that looks like a match for a fighter. What feats did you take?

Thanks, love this build as i can DPS, have also matched barbs in PvP.

Weapon Focus: Slash (Been wanting to switch this out but game is bugged at it dont appear when i try to exchange feats)
Improved Crit: Slash
Power Crit
Least and Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
Toughness x2

[Mhykke]

I don't find the reasons very convincing to remain pure.

As posted in earlier replies, you get better effects by multiclassing than the OP's reasons posted.

The only valid reason is the thought of unknown paladin love implemented by the devs.

[adamkatt]

mithril breatplate is light armor and only 1 ac loss over fullplate so evasion is very viable.

The ONLY things that are bonuses to pallies are resists maxing out at 11 and ofcourse better lay on hands your other examples are not a reason to take 5 more lvls of pally and human pallies are abundant and taking human improved healing boosts loh.

How many pallies have over 400 hp's? any pure pallies over 400?and pure palliesover 400 that can do anything other than have alot of hp's?

Just so you know the answers are not many if any and none and none.

Taking a lvl of wizard for extend would be better than taking 5 more lvls of pally for the duration.

Turn undead is a JOKE period a Cleric having the feats for turn undead and all the enhancments plus the reaver gloves and a 30 cha turns almost nothing i know from experience because i specced my cleric for this only to spit at it in disgust it is pathetic.


A dwarven paly can eaisly manage over 400 hp a high str 26 - 30, decent saves 22 - 30... as for turn indead... its always been a joke...

Oh my paly is near identical to cathal up there..

[Lithic]

Thanks, love this build as i can DPS, have also matched barbs in PvP.

Weapon Focus: Slash (Been wanting to switch this out but game is bugged at it dont appear when i try to exchange feats)
Improved Crit: Slash
Power Crit
Least and Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
Toughness x2

The reason you cant switch out weapon focus is that it is a prereq for power crit. take out power crit first, and you can switch out weapon focus.

[NKspeed]

If you dont like pure paladins, then keep the thought to yourself. I love playing my pure pali and will continue to keep him pure.

[Tanka]

How do you figure that, when the formula for LOH is (10+Paladin Level) x Charisma mod.
Healing doesn't factor in at all.
It does. Human Improved Recovery improves the amount of damage healed by LoH.


Thanks, love this build as i can DPS, have also matched barbs in PvP.

Weapon Focus: Slash (Been wanting to switch this out but game is bugged at it dont appear when i try to exchange feats)
Improved Crit: Slash
Power Crit
Least and Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
Toughness x2
The Focus doesn't show up because of Power Crit. If you respec Power Crit out, you can then respec the Focus out.

[Mhykke]

If you dont like pure paladins, then keep the thought to yourself. I love playing my pure pali and will continue to keep him pure.

That's great.

People aren't saying they don't like pure paladins. People are just giving thoughts on how to increase incentives to remain a pure paladin, b/c at this point in time, paladin, more than any other class, lacks those incentives to stay pure.

If people have thoughts on how to improve that situation, they should share them.

[Lewcipher]

[QUOTE=GeneFrenkle;1611607]Really? OK let me address your concernstaying pure for the spells.

OK, sure you can get clickies for just about anything in the game including barkskin etc. However, how many people to you know with Death ward clickies? How many times have you heard someone turn down an Deathward when offered to the party?


umm Deathward goggles out of tangleroot maybe? All six of my characters have them.

[Angelus_dead]

All the arguments I've heard against staying pure boil down to either increasing DPS, or increasing SP. My Paladin builds are not designed to maximize DPS. They are intended to be a layer of protection between the MOBs and the squishies.
If that's what you want a paladin to be... a guy who absorbs enemy attacks so they don't kill weaker teammates... then it is important for you to take some levels of Fighter or Rogue to get your Intimidate ranks up.

[Snoggy]

Note that from an in-character perspective, there is nothing wrong with a character trying to maximize his own potential. In fact, if Paladins are dedicated to defeating the forces of evil, then it behooves them to seek training from whatever source would most help defeat fiendish outsiders.

If one were to stay in-character, however, one can make a strong case for Rogue-Paladin Multiclass being rather contradictory. Thief skills on a character that is pigeonholed into strict adherence to the law?

:P

Just saying is all. Evasion being as popular as it is.

[JFeenstra]

If one were to stay in-character, however, one can make a strong case for Rogue-Paladin Multiclass being rather contradictory. Thief skills on a character that is pigeonholed into strict adherence to the law?

:P

Just saying is all. Evasion being as popular as it is.
rogue does not mean thief

plus, a paladin will go to any length to uphold his beliefs, which could include some things considered shady by most, like breaking into 'evil' lairs to retrieve stolen goods in the name of good or finding a way out of a trapped ambush by the foe he's pursuing

opening locks, finding and disarming traps and generally getting out of sticky situations are not inherently unlawful actions, it's the purpose behind the skill usage that determines it's alignment (ie. breaking into someones house and robbing them for your own benefit vs. breaking into a den of evil to smite a cult that's been terrorizing a city)

[Emili]

Thanks, love this build as i can DPS, have also matched barbs in PvP.

Weapon Focus: Slash (Been wanting to switch this out but game is bugged at it dont appear when i try to exchange feats)
Improved Crit: Slash
Power Crit
Least and Lesser Dragonmark of Passage
Toughness x2

You cannot switch out weapon focus of any type unless you switch out Power Crit first. Power Crit's pre-req is weapon focus of some type.

[Emili]

rogue does not mean thief

plus, a paladin will go to any length to uphold his beliefs, which could include some things considered shady by most, like breaking into 'evil' lairs to retrieve stolen goods in the name of good or finding a way out of a trapped ambush by the foe he's pursuing

opening locks, finding and disarming traps and generally getting out of sticky situations are not inherently unlawful actions, it's the purpose behind the skill usage that determines it's alignment (ie. breaking into someones house and robbing them for your own benefit vs. breaking into a den of evil to smite a cult that's been terrorizing a city)


Depends... backstabbing can be viewed very dishonourable, breaking in anything can be viewed as an immoral action... is why police get search warrents or adhere to probable cause you know... yet when they do it, they do it up front, they knock on your door. The confrontation due a paladin is following the alignment restrictions of lawful good - by the law of the betterment of good. The paladin like the knight is a chivarous figure, dirty tricks and deeds do not serve their purpose.

As for the word rogue itself - should you know the meaning of it you can come to the conclusion a thief is a rogue, but a rogue not neccessarily a thief as a rogue litteraly means unpricipled in all forms of it's definition.

Main Entry: 1rogue
Pronunciation: \ˈrōg\
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1561
1 : vagrant, tramp
2 : a dishonest or worthless person : scoundrel
3 : a mischievous person : scamp
4 : a horse inclined to shirk or misbehave
5 : an individual exhibiting a chance and usually inferior biological variation

Entry Word: rogue
Function: noun
Text:
1 a mean, evil, or unprincipled person <a rogue who had nothing but contempt for people who made their living honestly> — see villain
2 an appealingly mischievous person <the little rogue always seems to end up being forgiven for his pranks> — see scamp 1

Thus the ranger/rogue in my sig is amply named misbehaven ;)

[Lifespawn]

yes i know ppl can get over 400 hp's i was saying most pally builds didn't and in no way talking carp about them just that his example of 30 more hp's from loh isn't a reason to stay pure because most pallies aren't over 400.

[NKspeed]

Ok look im gona make this as clear to everyone as I can to stop this dam debate. Yes, splashing pali with other classes would make them better and no pure pali's done get sh!t for enchancments, abilities or feats atm. But staying pure pali is fun as hell and no matter if DDO has has a good or bad future for them ill continue to keep mines pure.

[GeneralDiomedes]

jump is one of the most useful spells in the game, and if you need the +1 BAB to hit anything then you need to reroll

Level 1 Jump is totally useless.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

anyone who's run tangleroot more than, twice, will likely have a deathward clicky

most people have items that cover any resists they need, and if they don't 11 mins will be enough to get them through whatever is going to be dealing the elemental damage to them...if longer times are needed a cleric or caster with extend is going to take care of it....in your typical raid on my caster or cleric i hand out MAYBE one resist the whole time.

mass deathward + extend gives pallys no reason to carry the spell

have you ever heard of disintegrate? mine does 600-1200 points of damage and i can spam it and scorching ray for around 1500 damage a second, plus i can throw as many of them as i have sp (2300 @ lvl 16 without a +3 cha tome)...you really think you can out dps a sorc on undead? care to test out that theory? lets go run some orchard quests and see whos got the higher kill count

Every attempt I've ever made of the shadow quests........no one had death ward. Not even the clerics or palllies. (ok, sometimes the cleric, but he never had extend and he never gave it out more than once)

And the best computer in the world couldn't begin to count the number of requests I hear for resists......including from arcanes and pallies.

Mass death ward is brand new, and only available to clerics that get no xp from most of the quests, I'd like to have it in.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Level 1 Jump is totally useless.

Uhmm.....no it's not.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Uhmm.....no it's not.

Yes, it is.

Buy a pot for 25 GP, save yourself the mana.

Note that I responding to someone who said it was useful as cast by a level 1 Wizard.

[Snoggy]

rogue does not mean thief

plus, a paladin will go to any length to uphold his beliefs, which could include some things considered shady by most, like breaking into 'evil' lairs to retrieve stolen goods in the name of good or finding a way out of a trapped ambush by the foe he's pursuing

opening locks, finding and disarming traps and generally getting out of sticky situations are not inherently unlawful actions, it's the purpose behind the skill usage that determines it's alignment (ie. breaking into someones house and robbing them for your own benefit vs. breaking into a den of evil to smite a cult that's been terrorizing a city)

I do believe I said "thief skills" which rogues have many of. And I do believe I was pretty specific in where the contradiction is ...

Breaking the Law.

That's the contradiction I see. A paladin is all about upholding the law. So much so that in previous versions of the game, they'd be stripped of their paladin-ness for doing things that imo a multiclass Rogue-adin ends up doing frequently.

Like I said, if one is staying in-character, I find it very contradictory that a rogue-paladin multiclass can adhere to the concept of the paladin.

From a pure gamer perspective, it makes complete sense. Evasion is evasion. Duh.

From an in-character perspective, it bends the concept far too much for me to suspend disbelief.

[Cinwulf]

rogue does not mean thief

plus, a paladin will go to any length to uphold his beliefs, which could include some things considered shady by most, like breaking into 'evil' lairs to retrieve stolen goods in the name of good or finding a way out of a trapped ambush by the foe he's pursuing

opening locks, finding and disarming traps and generally getting out of sticky situations are not inherently unlawful actions, it's the purpose behind the skill usage that determines it's alignment (ie. breaking into someones house and robbing them for your own benefit vs. breaking into a den of evil to smite a cult that's been terrorizing a city)


That's an excellent explanation.

[Ciaran]

Ok look im gona make this as clear to everyone as I can to stop this dam debate. Yes, splashing pali with other classes would make them better and no pure pali's done get sh!t for enchancments, abilities or feats atm. But staying pure pali is fun as hell and no matter if DDO has has a good or bad future for them ill continue to keep mines pure.

Speaking as somebody who has a very similar build to your paladin, I wholeheartedly agree.

Here's hoping they add some more incentives and improvements for the class down the road though, eh?

[Qzipoun]

Ummm...evasion...yeah right. I guess if your Paladin is wearing light armor and has no AC. Correct if I am wrong (and I'm sure I am not) evasion only works in light armor which most fighters/paladins don't wear. so evasions if very limited.

Three words: Kundarak Delving Suit


If you're not that lucky, you're just 1 AC less than in heavy armor. Just because it's "light" armor doesn't mean it's "less" armor.

[JFeenstra]

Yes, it is.

Buy a pot for 25 GP, save yourself the mana.

Note that I responding to someone who said it was useful as cast by a level 1 Wizard.
sorc...taking a level of wis with a paladin is stupid...a single sorc level will give you way more sp because pallys are already cha based

and yes, 1 minute of +10 to jump is very useful, or detect secret doors, or sheild (hey now i can kill that thing that's spamming me with magic missles while it has to find another way to attack me) or any of the other limited need level 1 spells

are you going to be able to take on an army of devils with them? no, are they more useful than another level of pally? probably, considering the other things that come along with it (+1 cha from enhancements, over 100 extra spell points, etc)

as for paladins being law followers, that's true, but it doesn't mean that the paladins laws are your laws or the laws of the people, simply the laws set by whichever church the paladin follows...if it's an evil church, the paladin could be a lawful evil alignment

and when it comes to light armor, nothing beats a +5 mithril breastplate for AC with evasion :)

[Angelus_dead]

sorc...taking a level of wis with a paladin is stupid...a single sorc level will give you way more sp because pallys are already cha based
Taking either sorc or wis is generally a mistake. But, the wizard level would give you a bonus feat for Extend, which improves the Divine Favor and Resist Energy spells of the paladin. That's worth a lot more than the sorc's extra mana.


and when it comes to light armor, nothing beats a +5 mithril breastplate for AC with evasion :)
KDS beats it.

[Snoggy]

as for paladins being law followers, that's true, but it doesn't mean that the paladins laws are your laws or the laws of the people, simply the laws set by whichever church the paladin follows...if it's an evil church, the paladin could be a lawful evil alignment

Say what? Lawful Evil? Uh ... Paladins? You lost me.

[elraido]

I love my lvl 16 paladin to death, but in reality there is no reason to stay pure. When the game was released Paladins were so over powered it was silly. Now, they are just a shell of their former selves. The devs have given nothing to the paladin past lvl 11. Nothing special, nothing that makes one go hmmmmmm I want that, nothing to even remotely sway one person....besides you get to say you are a pure build. I was a die hard pure build paladin person too....and each time they raise the lvl cap I realize how much further behind a pure build is getting. yeah in PvP they are amazed at how hard it is to kill me, but that doesn't help me kill them at all.

[elraido]

Say what? Lawful Evil? Uh ... Paladins? You lost me.

dark paladins or evil paladins. They do exist...heck you even fight them in this game. It is just in the god the follow

[JFeenstra]

Say what? Lawful Evil? Uh ... Paladins? You lost me.
in history, the paladin is a high ranking officer of the church

now, in D&D, there are many evil aligned churches (hence evil clerics/priests), so naturally evil paladins are a possibility IF the GM allows it, although the lawful alignment must be maintained as he's still charged with upholding his church's' laws


Later editions brought forward the more generalised concept of the "paladin" just being the pinnacle of combat related to a particular religious organisation. This allowed "paladins" of various gods that were of an alignment other than Lawful Good. All "paladins" had a code or set of rules that must be followed but because of the differences in point of view between the alignments the rules governing behavior changed from order to order. This allowed for one of the more heinous villains in the game setting, the "Anti-Paladin". A complete and utter opposite of a proper paladin he is one of the dark champions of an evil order. Everything about him is a twisted visage of a paladin. Where the paladin is charismatic in a charming or trustworthy way, an anti-paladin's charisma came from being frightening or manipulative. A paladin's abilities were also mocked with the anti-paladin's abilities like "Harm" "Cause Disease" and "Cause Fear". These were never recommended as player characters.

[Snoggy]

in history, the paladin is a high ranking officer of the church

In history? Again, you're confusing me. Which history? D&D history is pretty complex and kind of all over the place. We talking Forgotten Realms?


now, in D&D, there are many evil aligned churches (hence evil clerics/priests), so naturally evil paladins are a possibility IF the GM allows it, although the lawful alignment must be maintained as he's still charged with upholding his church's' laws

I'm pretty sure I remember paladins have an alignment restriction.

Evil Knights ... Black Knights ... Shadowknights ... the "evil" equivalent of a Paladin, in some rulesets were their very own class or specialty. At least that's the history I remember.

Like I said, you're really confusing me talking about evil paladins since paladins have a pretty specific alignment requirement.

EDIT:

I see your wiki quote with some quotes of my own ...

The DDO general character class description for Paladin found on this very site:


As a sworn enemy of evil, the paladin draws her power from the forces of good to protect and inspire companions. The experienced paladin fears nothing, can heal companions, and can turn undead.


The DDO paladin specific class page:


The paladin is a virtuous combination of fighter and cleric. They possess the fighter's combat ability and at higher levels, also gain the ability to cast divine spells and turn undead as a cleric. Their unique abilities include special auras that protect allies and the power to smite evil foes.


Excellent in solo play, especially against evil and undead foes
A good secondary front-line combatant (along with fighters and barbarians)
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons
Can wear all armor and shields, except tower shields
Can cast divine spells at level 4
Can turn undead at level 3
Immune to disease at level 2
Must be lawful good
Recommended Attributes: Charisma, Strength, Wisdom, Constitution

The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few possess the piety and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin's path, but those few are rewarded with the power to protect, to heal, and to smite evil. In a land of evil deeds, unholy cults, backstabbing guilds and inscrutable dragons, the paladin is the last, best hope for the forces of Light.

And since we're talking about wikipedia ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)


In the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, paladin is one of the base character classes. The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster. Paladins are always of the Lawful Good alignment.

In addition, compared to other classes the paladin class has one of the most restrictive codes of conduct in their single-mindedness and utter devotion to good. Paladin characters are expected to demonstrate and embody goodness. It is taboo for a paladin to lie or use poison, and some interpretations say they should only use stealth as a last resort. Other restrictions are sometimes laid on the paladin depending on campaign setting, ranging from restricting the class to the point of making it a comically unplayable character to a class that only differs from other warrior classes in its additional divine powers.

Aasimar have Paladin as their favored class.



So I dunno. Lawful Evil paladins seem to be a concept lost on me, and on DDO.

[Angelus_dead]

now, in D&D, there are many evil aligned churches (hence evil clerics/priests), so naturally evil paladins are a possibility IF the GM allows it
In D&D there are many metals, and also sulfur and bat guano, so naturally players can roll a Craft(metalworking) check and build a machine gun IF the GM allows it.

[Laith]

rogue does not mean thief
remember how the class was originally called "thief"?

the name changed for a reason.

[Emili]

in history, the paladin is a high ranking officer of the church

now, in D&D, there are many evil aligned churches (hence evil clerics/priests), so naturally evil paladins are a possibility IF the GM allows it, although the lawful alignment must be maintained as he's still charged with upholding his church's' laws


We do not have an anti-paladin or blackguard as a playable class in DDO... the premise you suppose would require the pally's alignment reflect such class and also it's abilities... an LE pally does not get things like smite evil, LOH or Remove desease but instead smite good, inflict and other abilities in it's place.

The shear definition of rogue is unruley, unlawful - this is what my point was a few posts back... there are other paladin like characters in DnD not just one lawful holy warrior, The Anti-Paladin CE, The Blackguard, etc... who adhere to other alignments.

One must look at the definition of what lawful-good entails and you come to the conclusion that the alignment preaches chivalrous acts, no cheating for the betterment of good but following the guidelines within fairplay as it pertain to the law and the good.

Law Vs. Chaos
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, "honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality on the lawful-chaotic axis is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few such neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks.

Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.

Lawful Good, "Crusader"
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.

Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

Lawful Evil, "Dominator"
A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

Lawful evil is sometimes called "diabolical," because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.

Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil.

Thus, to me Pally-rogue has always been an opposing character in role-play depending on how the character is role-played... ie.) sometime ago I knew one such in PnP, who insisted on sneaking around and utilizing sneak attacks rather than fighting honourably - The DM made the the call and forced the issues of seeking attonement for the dishourable actions...

[Emili]

remember how the class was originally called "thief"?

the name changed for a reason.

As I stated a thief is a rogue but a rogue not a thief... the deffinition of rogue is unruley, rebellious, inconsistant.

To be blunt and get back on topic however... pally's lack much luster at the higher end due to it being such a front loaded class... what is worse in DDO is the lack of pally spells which exist in DnD and the fact they have no real eye-catching enhancements past lvl 11 such as the Barb's critical rage (which verges on an epic level feat equivalent) to entice remaining pure in the class viable. DnD is bad enough with the class description DDO even moreso.

[Frodo_Lives]

I have a Pure pally that was capped, and almost is again. There was a time where he was a solid addition to any party and handled multiple roles within that party very very well. There was a time where my contributions were more valuable than a barbarian, or fighter.

Once I got past level 11 or 12 this changed. Oh he is still a good character, and can be useful in most, if not all, quests. But his time has passed and most parties would benifit more from a barbarian or a fighter as a front line melee character.

I didn't suddenly become an incompetent player, after all the higher levels my fighter gets the more deadly he becomes. Same with my wizard, bard, cleric(s), barbarian, and rogue. Some more than others, but all are becoming increasingly more effective and dangerous as they gain experience. Unfortunately even though my Paladin is the best equipped (by far) of all my characters he is the one that is having the hardest time keeping up with the Joneses at top end content.

Sure I can heal and my LoH are still impressive, but really my LoH are about as good as a Heal spell and my other healing is rather insignificant compared to the current level of hps that most melees have. My Smite can lay some serious damage, but really isn't that impressive seeing as most of the time it isn't all that much more than a couple of barbarian crits and because of the cooldown as well as the waste when enemies move it isn't anywhere near as realiable as it once was. I do have a couple of good spells, but none of which is overly impressive or a "must have". Divine Favor is always a good little bump, but that is all it is, a little bump. Resists are nice and probably the one spell that makes casting as a paladin worth much at all. But hey, my saves are still really good. On the other hand, they are not leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else due to the fact that good resistance items are so readily available and there are some good feats out there so it's not like other classes really hurt when they compare saves. I used to be the king of the hill when it came to AC, now it seems like every other fighter has just as good or even better AC. Although I can't say that I built him with AC in mind so a lot of the time I'd trade 10 points of AC for a good displacement.

Even still my paladin is the best and can do lots, just none of it exceptionally well. And there is always someone that can do it better, a lot better. Well he is still fun to play.*










*Disclaimer: Tongue planted firmly in cheek here. All the points discussed are slightly exaggerated to make a point. A well built paladin can be a fine addition to most parties. However, they have been losing ground steadily over the past few mods to other classes in terms of usefullness and effectiveness. IMO there is next to no reason to stay pure paladin other than personal preference (which really is all that matters) or the hope that better days are ahead for the paladin class.

[Falco_Easts]

We do not have an anti-paladin or blackguard as a playable class in DDO... the premise you suppose would require the pally's alignment reflect such class and also it's abilities... an LE pally does not get things like smite evil, LOH or Remove desease but instead smite good, inflict and other abilities in it's place.

The shear definition of rogue is unruley, unlawful - this is what my point was a few posts back... there are other paladin like characters in DnD not just one lawful holy warrior, The Anti-Paladin CE, The Blackguard, etc... who adhere to other alignments.

One must look at the definition of what lawful-good entails and you come to the conclusion that the alignment preaches chivalrous acts, no cheating for the betterment of good but following the guidelines within fairplay as it pertain to the law and the good.

/SNIP - Cut to save space




While I do shudder every time I see a palli/rogue there is a flaw in your argument. You are assuming all societies laws and values are the same and as we know this is not true.
One society/culture may have the laws and value set that is do whatever is necessary for the good of the clan. Not to assist the clan (lay down your life in battle, lie to an outsider about a clan secret, steal back a holy relic to aid crop growth etc...) is a sin and makes you unholy. Therefore in theory, a pali could do all these things and still remain lawful good to their own culture

[GeneFrenkle]

But his time has passed and most parties would benifit more from a barbarian or a fighter as a front line melee character.


I'm glad this was said, because as I've stated over and over again a Paladin should not be thought of as a front line combatant for high end content in DDO. A Paladin used in that way will be sub-par. Once you allow that to sink in you can start thinking about what a Paladin really is in this game. There are things a Paladin does better in DDO such as "protection" of casters, healing, and survivability. This limitation on the Paladin class may change in the future, but for now that's the way it stands. That does not mean that you can't make a Pure Paladin who is useful and contributes to the party in ways that a front line combatant cannot. People need to stop having unrealistic expectations of this class given the current implementation. Get over it.

[transtemporal]

OP: To be honest, the only reason I can see thats compelling enough to go pure pally is the big LoH and smite evil numbers, and by 16 they'll be someone way better at damaging or healing than me. Apart from my AC and saves aura buffs, I really don't know what else I'm contributing, except.... dooooooooommmmmm!!! :D

[Laith]

While I do shudder every time I see a palli/rogue there is a flaw in your argument. You are assuming all societies laws and values are the same and as we know this is not true.
Aside from that, the skills a rogue learns are not inherently chaotic or evil. it's all in your REASONS for learning/using them.

In a world where criminals and threats to society wield magic against the innocent and law abiding, while defending themselves with traps and locks: it stands to reason that the lawful and good would learn to deal in traps and magic.

Any major organization of power (including churches) would probably have their own assets to this end.

[Frodo_Lives]

I'm glad this was said, because as I've stated over and over again a Paladin should not be thought of as a front line combatant for high end content in DDO. A Paladin used in that way will be sub-par. Once you allow that to sink in you can start thinking about what a Paladin really is in this game. There are things a Paladin does better in DDO such as "protection" of casters, healing, and survivability. This limitation on the Paladin class may change in the future, but for now that's the way it stands. That does not mean that you can't make a Pure Paladin who is useful and contributes to the party in ways that a front line combatant cannot. People need to stop having unrealistic expectations of this class given the current implementation. Get over it.

And as I stated, a barbarian or fighter is more useful to most groups as a front line melee. My paladins can not effectively replace a good barbarian or fighter in that role, and quite frankly the extras that he does bring (extra healing, slight boost to AC and saves, a few decent buffs) do not make up for it.

I do not have unrealisitic expectations that my paladin should melee as well as a barb or fighter, he really shouldn't considering all the extras that he brings to the party. What I am saying, and what I meant, was that the extras that I bring to the party is not worth having compared to what most other classes can do for a party. Realistically what I hope for a paladin is that they can be as useful to a party as any other class, which at high end is nowhere near the truth. Being a go between to "protect" the squishy classes and being able to cast CSW and toss out the equivilent of a heal scroll occassionally is not being an effective party member, it's simply being an extra body along on the adventure.

The only way a paladin is a useful member of a high level party is if the player sitting at the keyboard is a good player and really knows what they are doing. While it can be said for almost every class I believe that it is exaggerated for a pure paladin simply because the class is weaker than most of the others and as a class brings far less to the table. All I am asking is give the paladin something or make changes to them to make them as good as other classses because right now they are sub par.

[Vormaerin]

in history, the paladin is a high ranking officer of the church



Actually, this is completely untrue. Paladin historically has nothing to do with the church. Its most common application was for a high military official, similar to how Field Marshal later was used. For example, Charlemagne's Twelve Paladins (aka Roland and that ilk). It also came to be used for a champion of a cause, probably because Charlemagne's Paladins and other medieval era equivalents were champions of their ruler's causes. At no point prior to D&D was it explicitly religious (though many causes are, naturally).

The term comes from palatinus, meaning courtier or of the palace. The term palatine, for a noble with royal priviledges or greater than normal sovereignty, comes from the same source. So does palatial, for that matter.

[Vormaerin]

On topic,

I don't think paladins suck if pure (ie can't be productive members of high end parties). However, if your goal is maximal numerical effectiveness, then pure paladin does not stack up. Spellcasters and barbarians are really the only classes that have good incentives to remain pure compared to multiclassing, even in p&p. And if you throw in PrCs, no on has a good case for purity.

Better spell lists and the implementation of various paladin uses for Turn Undead like the divine feats (either as feats or as enhancements) would really be a nice addition to the class. Right now, if you always have a balanced class mix, there will be someone better at whatever the paladin does. All the other classes, except maybe fighter, can lay claim to something they do better than anyone else.

[salmag]

I only have one reason for bringing staying a true pally.

1. Because thats the way you want to play him.

:D:cool:;)

[Grenfell]

I'm glad this was said, because as I've stated over and over again a Paladin should not be thought of as a front line combatant for high end content in DDO. A Paladin used in that way will be sub-par. Once you allow that to sink in you can start thinking about what a Paladin really is in this game. There are things a Paladin does better in DDO such as "protection" of casters, healing, and survivability. This limitation on the Paladin class may change in the future, but for now that's the way it stands. That does not mean that you can't make a Pure Paladin who is useful and contributes to the party in ways that a front line combatant cannot. People need to stop having unrealistic expectations of this class given the current implementation. Get over it.

The trouble with this line of reasoning is that there is nothing that a paladin does that a battlecleric can't do better from a party standpoint. Assuming that you've built a cleric and not a healbot, the "last line of defense for squishies" role really belongs to the cleric. You're not looking to build up kill count, just distract mobs away from the real squishies. Clerics Divine Powered up are plenty good to do that.

Paladins are frontline melee, and they're just not good enough at that job. You're right that a paladin used as a front-line combatant will be subpar. You want to use the paladin as a backline "support melee". Trouble is that if you optimize the paladin, you make your whole party subpar.

You can say get over it all you'd like. But reality is that people are "getting over it" by parking their paladins and not inviting paladins to parties if there are alternatives that can fill the frontline melee role.

Something has to be done.

/gren

[Delt]

Since it's been mentioned so often...what the hell is this "built for protecting the squishies!" role he is going on about? I have 3, ummm, squishies (if 240 to 300+ hp is "squishy")...a sorc, a bard and a wiz/rog WF. All 3 of my characters can use heal/reconstruct, all 3 can cc and 2 can insta kill pretty much anything in the game besides red/purples...

So that said, what Pali is exactly gonna be protecting me? Why do I need protection? This self-inflicted pigeon holed role he feels suited for...where exactly is it applicable? Because honestly, for the life of me - I really have NEVER seen the need since the 10 cap w/ beholders...

And even IF there were one or two scenarios I needed a bodyguard (aside from any warm body in a doorway), why the hell would I want a Pali and not someone with intmidate or a higher HP, two handed monster Barb (etc, etc)?

I don't expect an answer...at least not a logical one. The rest of the 'pro-pali' arguements haven't been logical, why should this be, I guess.

/shrug

[Snoggy]

So that said, what Pali is exactly gonna be protecting me?

Where does the best loot in the game come from?


besides red/purples...

Ah, seems you answered the question for yourself.

[Angelus_dead]

Where does the best loot in the game come from?
From The Shroud, although +3 tomes come from Reaver's Fate.

Neither one has a need for a paladin. Reaver's Fate has no reason for melee at all, so we needn't mention it further. But The Shroud requires some serious melee power to do it well.

And in the Shroud, a barbarian, ranger, fighter, or rogue are all better melee than a paladin. One might expect that at least when fighting evil outsiders, paladins would have an edge- sadly, that's not the case. As a quick first step, Turbine should fix Holy Sword to beat Devil DR, although more is needed.

Note that a paladin with 2 levels of rogue has a useful benefit against Arraetrikos- he is quite safe from DBFs. But that doesn't help pure paladins.

[Snoggy]

And in the Shroud, a barbarian, ranger, fighter, or rogue are all better melee than a paladin.

The person I quote is suggesting his 3 characters, a sorceror, a bard and a wizard-rogue multi-class, are not squishy.

So since we're now talking about the Shroud Raid ...

Do you think his three characters would be SQUISHY or NON-SQUISHY when fighting the pit fiend?

I'm pretty sure Paladins are non-squishy enough to stick around in melee range of the Pit Fiend.

But what about the Sorceror, Bard or Wizard-Rogue? Where are that poster's characters standing during that fight? Where are the "tanks" standing? Why are the tanks standing where they stand? Why are the sorcerors standing where they stand? Even the 240 hit point sorcerors?

I'm sorry to have to post in this manner, it's just the person I quoted was suggesting his 3 toons were tough enough to tank. No matter what the issues with paladins are, they still make better tanks against a Pit Fiend than a sorceror with 240 to 300 hit points. Unless you've discovered something about the Shroud that I have yet to witness.

[Delt]

Where does the best loot in the game come from?



Ah, seems you answered the question for yourself.

Are you as unfamiliar with high end quests as you are the Pali class?

Shroud or the Reaver? You ain't magically pulling air ele aggro or killing them better than me (or saving against knockdown better than other melee's)...so big ??? there. Maybe you are tanking the reaver...but so can almost every other class (including my wiz/rog). Chances are the fighters or barbs have better AC or HP than the Pali, so they ain't required in the slightest.

DPS is the order of the day in the Shroud, and last I checked, even the pro-pali cheerleaders are conceding there. Your whole 5 max major heals don't refresh with fountains or tree's, so you are totally marginalized there since your Pure Pali UMD is too low for scrolls. And I'll be sitting behind the guy with evasion for part 5 and since you are a Pure Pali, that ain't you.

Like I said...didn't expect a single logical answer.

Edit:


But what about the Sorceror, Bard or Wizard-Rogue? Where are that poster's characters standing during that fight? Where are the "tanks" standing? Why are the tanks standing where they stand? Why are the sorcerors standing where they stand? Even the 240 hit point sorcerors?

I'm sorry to have to post in this manner, it's just the person I quoted was suggesting his 3 toons were tough enough to tank. No matter what the issues with paladins are, they still make better tanks against a Pit Fiend than a sorceror with 240 to 300 hit points. Unless you've discovered something about the Shroud that I have yet to witness.

Why would my sorc be tanking the Fiend? You know what, I've already established I didn't expect logical replies, so forget I asked. To answer your question, I'm either getting carpal tunnel syndrome on the fountains, afk behind the guy with evasion (*hint* not you) or buffing people, usually.

My HP is enough of a buffer to not die in Part 5 unless I actively try or get tele'd while afk...which isn't remote a big deal because someone will res me when I get back (again, probably ain't gonna be you). And based on everything you've said, it's a safe bet I DO know more about the shroud than you...

[Snoggy]

Are you as unfamiliar with high end quests as you are the Pali class?

Shroud or the Reaver? You ain't magically pulling air ele aggro or killing them better than me (or saving against knockdown better than other melee's)...so big ??? there. Maybe you are tanking the reaver...but so can almost every other class (including my wiz/rog). Chances are the fighters or barbs have better AC or HP than the Pali, so they ain't required in the slightest.

DPS is the order of the day in the Shroud, and last I checked, even the pro-pali cheerleaders are conceding there. Your whole 5 max major heals don't refresh with fountains or tree's, so you are totally marginalized there since your Pure Pali UMD is too low for scrolls. And I'll be sitting behind the guy with evasion for part 5 and since you are a Pure Pali, that ain't you.

Like I said...didn't expect a single logical answer.


I'll simply answer that I seem to be a bit more familiar with high end quests in DDO than you are with the very words you type.



Since it's been mentioned so often...what the hell is this "built for protecting the squishies!" role he is going on about? I have 3, ummm, squishies (if 240 to 300+ hp is "squishy")...a sorc, a bard and a wiz/rog WF. All 3 of my characters can use heal/reconstruct, all 3 can cc and 2 can insta kill pretty much anything in the game besides red/purples...


You ask a question. The question is "what is this protecting squishies role he is talking about?"

You then mention that you can insta-kill anything in the game ... besides red/purples.

That's the answer to your question. That's the needing protection portion of the game. Your hit points aren't keeping you alive in those portions of the game. Other people are. Your insta-kill DPS isn't keeping you alive in that portion of the game. Other people are.

You answered your own question.

Your hit points on your sorceror might impress you, maybe even some other people. But I don't see you stepping up into cleave range on the Pit Fiend and staying there. Until you do, you are indeed a SQUISHY. And melees (no matter what class they are) are PROTECTING you.

I don't care about the rest of what he or you have to say about paladins specifically. They tank reds and purples better than the three characters you mentioned. That's when they protect you. Other melees can do the same job. And a strong case can be made that those other melees can do the job better. That's not my issue. My issue is you suggest your 240 hit point caster can tank.

It can't.

[Snoggy]

Why would my sorc be tanking the Fiend?

Because you've got 240 hit points homie! And you don't need protection! So obviously you can stand right up in there and take the heat right?


My HP is enough of a buffer to not die in Part 5 unless I actively try or get tele'd while afk...which isn't remote a big deal because someone will res me when I get back (again, probably ain't gonna be you). And based on everything you've said, it's a safe bet I DO know more about the shroud than you...

Your Hit Points aren't enough of a buffer to claim you are not squishy. Your hit points aren't enough of a buffer to stand with the melees. Which means there is indeed an instance where you, my squishy homeslice, may indeed need some protection. Where your 240 hit points and insta-killing spells aren't helping. Heaven forbid. You may actually be squishy.

[Delt]

You say enough silly things that I actually don't have to reply (and no one would fault me). I'm lucky...I wouldn't even know where to start, lol...

[Snoggy]

You say enough silly things that I actually don't have to reply (and no one would fault me). I'm lucky...I wouldn't even know where to start, lol...

It's real simple ... EVEN THE WORST TANKING CLASS (and that may indeed be a paladin) ... is much better at tanking than the three characters you mentioned.

So "ummmm" you are squishy. And there are times where you do need protection. And even a gimp paladin can do it.

Remember, these are your own words:


Since it's been mentioned so often...what the hell is this "built for protecting the squishies!" role he is going on about? I have 3, ummm, squishies (if 240 to 300+ hp is "squishy")...a sorc, a bard and a wiz/rog WF. All 3 of my characters can use heal/reconstruct, all 3 can cc and 2 can insta kill pretty much anything in the game besides red/purples...


You are suggesting your squishy toons aren't squishy. They obviously are squishy, or they could tank better than a gimpy paladin. Obviously, they can't tank better than a gimpy paladin, because you don't tank Pit Fiends with any of them. Something even a gimpy paladin can do.

All those spell points, all that insta-kill power, but the moment a Pit Fiend shows up, a Gimpy Paladin wielding a wet noodle and wearing a dented pot on his head is less squishy than you are.

So who's being silly? The person stating the bleeding obvious (that tanks tank better than non-tanks) ... or the person suggesting his 240 hit point sorceror is so hardcore, he doesn't ever need melee tanking protection?

[JFeenstra]

Your Hit Points aren't enough of a buffer to claim you are not squishy. Your hit points aren't enough of a buffer to stand with the melees. Which means there is indeed an instance where you, my squishy homeslice, may indeed need some protection. Where your 240 hit points and insta-killing spells aren't helping. Heaven forbid. You may actually be squishy.

why would a caster EVER try and tank the way a melee does? that's just dumb....a better strategy to 'tank' would be to run around and spam spells while dodging stuff...the tanks main job is to draw agro and stay alive...if a caster can do this with 20hp and still kill it all, it makes him a better tank than a pally

the only reason tanks can tank half the time is because the caster is there drawing agro with spells or dropping crowd control

also, the easiest way to do part 5 is have two rangers (or someone with ranged and evasion. ie. NOT YOU) on either side of the room firing at him with the rest of the party sitting behind them...it takes a while but doesn't use up any resources..thank the storm lords for that method

[Delt]

I help ya out, because honestly, you are so far away from anything resembling a point - it's depressing.

I called myself "squishy" because the classes I mentioned are considered squishy. So repeating "you are squishy!" as some sort of aha-got-ya! point just makes you look foolish. With those traditional squishy classes breaking the 300 HP mark since the last mod, I'd question whether that adjective should even apply anymore. Putting imaginary words into my mouth to make it become "My sorc can tank the Fiend!", is not only silly, it's downright stupid with everything else I said.

So to answer your question, the person stating the obvious, stating make-believe arguements and practicing hyperbole looks the most foolish...

nite.

[Angelus_dead]

The person I quote is suggesting his 3 characters, a sorceror, a bard and a wizard-rogue multi-class, are not squishy.
Wrong. He did not say that, and he also did not suggest it in some indirect way.

The precise words were "I don't need a paladin to protect me". And that is 100% true. In the context of a place like The Shroud, a paladin does not protect the casters. He goes to help DPS the boss, just like everyone else who can swing a weapon is doing.

[GeneFrenkle]

The precise words were "I don't need a paladin to protect me". And that is 100% true. In the context of a place like The Shroud, a paladin does not protect the casters. He goes to help DPS the boss, just like everyone else who can swing a weapon is doing.

Only because he assumes that the rest of the party is shield blocking the door so that no mobs can get back to where he is. If I ever get a chance to run with him, I'll be sure to stand completely out of his way and let him handle himself.

[Snoggy]

Wrong. He did not say that, and he also did not suggest it in some indirect way.

The precise words were "I don't need a paladin to protect me". And that is 100&#37; true. In the context of a place like The Shroud, a paladin does not protect the casters. He goes to help DPS the boss, just like everyone else who can swing a weapon is doing.

Uh, Angelus ... in his first post he typed:

"(if 240 to 300+ hp is "squishy")"

IF being the key word in that aside. Meaning he's suggesting the squishy is not squishy.

In his latest post he further clarifies:

"With those traditional squishy classes breaking the 300 HP mark since the last mod, I'd question whether that adjective should even apply anymore."

Seems like he's saying his SQUISHY isn't Squishy anymore.

Comments? Further clarification on how I'm wrong even though he keeps typing that he doesn't think he's a squishy?

Any more people want to call me foolish for stating this 240 hit point sorceror needs protection in some content and is indeed a squishy?

Any more claims from him of putting words in his mouth when all I do is keep QUOTING HIM?

[Delt]

Uh, Angelus ... in his first post he typed:

"(if 240 to 300+ hp is "squishy")"

IF being the key word in that aside. Meaning he's suggesting the squishy is not squishy.

In his latest post he further clarifies:

"With those traditional squishy classes breaking the 300 HP mark since the last mod, I'd question whether that adjective should even apply anymore."

Seems like he's saying his SQUISHY isn't Squishy anymore.

Comments? Further clarification on how I'm wrong even though he keeps typing that he doesn't think he's a squishy?

Any more people want to call me foolish for stating this 240 hit point sorceror needs protection in some content and is indeed a squishy?

Any more claims from him of putting words in his mouth when all I do is keep QUOTING HIM?

Saying I don't think various traditional classes should even be called "squishy" anymore as an aside is NOWHERE near claiming "my casters can tank!"...it's not even in the same universe "homie".

After re-reading it, perhaps your confusion lies in the 'what the hell is this "built for protecting the squishies!" role he is going on about?' comment I originally made. I admit, easily confused if some random thoughtless 3rd party like you steps into the thread and totally takes it out of context...so let me clarify for you:

It's been stated multiple times, in this thread and others, that somehow a a Pali fills a 'sit-back-assess-the-situation-and-protect-the-squishy' role better than traditional melee's. My question was:

a) How is a Pali better for that?
b) When is this role supposedly needed?
c) Why do I want a melee pigeoned holed into my own personal bodyguard over any other class, if at all? (because ya, casters CAN solo 90&#37; of the content in game)

Nowhere in there is any mention of me tanking anything...perhaps instead of just jumping into a thread and looking foolish for 1+ pages, you should take the time to read the proceding posts.

/shrug

[Frodo_Lives]

It is a good thing and necessary to protect the less combat able members of your party. It is a respectable and very good way to be a good teammate. However a fighter or barbarian or pretty much any "front line" melee class can protect the squishies just by paying attention. I find it laughable that it should be considered a dedicated role, much less the purpose of an entire class. I don't need or want someone to take that role full time as it is a waste of a party slot.

[Tolero]

Keep the personal attacks and name calling out of the Paladin discussions, or the discussions are getting closed. This is the last warning I will give about it.

- No name calling
- No insults
- No personal attacks

[Draclaud]

10. No one calls you gimp for using a shield

9. Saves make you effective beholder fodder

8. You get to RP you're Sir Lancelot

7. Evi Joss digs a man in full plate

6. You can Dominate the PUG discussion of "who has the higher AC and saves" while the barbarian kills everything

5. You can tell yourself that the mission was a success because your bulwark brought the Barbarians AC fro 14 to 18 helping conserve the cleric's mana.

4. A 200+ Lay hands is really clutch when used on the Cleric

3. You can freely chastise any multi-class Paladin's for not staying true to the PnP design

2. No one thinks you're gimp for getting outkilled by the bow using ranger

and the Number 1 reason to stay pure paladin!

1. Simply not getting killed makes your build considered a successful one!

[Delt]

10. No one calls you gimp for using a shield

9. Saves make you effective beholder fodder

8. You get to RP you're Sir Lancelot

7. Evi Joss digs a man in full plate

6. You can Dominate the PUG discussion of "who has the higher AC and saves" while the barbarian kills everything

5. You can tell yourself that the mission was a success because your bulwark brought the Barbarians AC fro 14 to 18 helping conserve the cleric's mana.

4. A 200+ Lay hands is really clutch when used on the Cleric

3. You can freely chastise any multi-class Paladin's for not staying true to the PnP design

2. No one thinks you're gimp for getting outkilled by the bow using ranger

and the Number 1 reason to stay pure paladin!

1. Simply not getting killed makes your build considered a successful one!


Heh, I'll admit, I chuckled @ 6, 5 and 1.

[GeneFrenkle]

It is a good thing and necessary to protect the less combat able members of your party. It is a respectable and very good way to be a good teammate. However a fighter or barbarian or pretty much any "front line" melee class can protect the squishies just by paying attention. I find it laughable that it should be considered a dedicated role, much less the purpose of an entire class. I don't need or want someone to take that role full time as it is a waste of a party slot.

There are many times when I see the fighter/barb rush ahead of the group swinging away like a kid at a T-ball game just to get the highest kill count. Meanwhile mobs are pouring in from behind attacking the casters. So although it's true they "could" pay attention, in reality the only thing they are paying attention to is their own kill count. When you are playing ask yourself what is it that you are doing to conserve resources for the healers? Every time someone dies and gets raised, or has a heal scroll fired at them it costs resources. What are you doing as a player to help minimize those costs? Some people prefer to just contribute money but most don't. I do my part to help out with the healing and protection to reduce the overall resources spent, and if that is a waste of a party slot so be it. I've never once heard a complaint from a group I was in that I was a "waste of a party slot".

[Frodo_Lives]

The example that you give has far less to do with class concepts as it does play style. If a fighter or barbarian wants to run ahead and leave the rest of the group behind then they are not playing well as a team and it has nothing to do with what a Paladin can or can't do compared to other classes. If a group sticks together then there is no need for a secondary melee to do little but hang back and protect the casters. Playing bodyguard is not as useful a role as actually being an equal contributer to the party.

Casting resists and doing a little back up healing while putting out some DPS may be a good use for a slot in some parties, but in a balanced party a paladin really doesn't bring the same impact at high levels as almost any other class.

I believe that the Paladin class is very nicely balanced for the first 10 or 11 levels. They may not do the damage that other melee classes do, but that's fine they come with other benifits that will help the group.

However, once you hit level 12 - 16 what the Pure Paladin gets as class feats, spells, class abilities are far less then what every other class gains. There is little reason to stay pure after level 11 based on the simple fact that any new abilities/spells/class features are at best, trivial. I'm not saying that the paladin class has to DPS like a raging barb, or be as good a buffer as a bard or whatever. I do firmly believe that the Paladin (at high levels) gains very little by staying pure and their usefullness drops off the higher level you go. This is something that should be looked at, and hopefully will be.

[Mhykke]

I don't know what some are talking about, but I don't know of many casters that need "protection" from anything.

If those advocating this "protection" argument notice, it's these "squishies" that are out soloing most of the new mod's contents on elite.

Oh, and suggesting that anyone is "protecting" anyone else in the shroud against the pit fiend is laughable.

[Jondallar]

Because you've got 240 hit points homie! And you don't need protection! So obviously you can stand right up in there and take the heat right?

Your Hit Points aren't enough of a buffer to claim you are not squishy. Your hit points aren't enough of a buffer to stand with the melees. Which means there is indeed an instance where you, my squishy homeslice, may indeed need some protection. Where your 240 hit points and insta-killing spells aren't helping. Heaven forbid. You may actually be squishy.

Paladins are not protecting anyone from the pit fiend, the Barbs and Fighters are because they have the agro. Sorcs, Wizards and Clerics protect everyone from all non red/purple named Sorcs and WF wizards solo the reaver, Paladins (even splash paladins) do not.

[Jondallar]

I'm not sure how many times i have to post this, but Paladin's are allowed to multiclass in PnP. There is a feat which allows it, also there are Presitige classes which allow it...especially with rogues...its called Shadowbane Inquisitor (PrC) and the feat name escapes me. Also "the Paladin's cant multiclass" was actually the cavalier prestege class of Paladin and it has not always been that way in PnP. So sorry to burst yer bubbles but Paladins can multiclass in PnP, w/o losing their Paladin abilities. Also Rogues do not have a chaotic or evil requirement, to have rogue class skills one can be lawful, it is called rogue, not thief.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26088/Comp...dventurer-v3-5 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/26088/Complete-Adventurer-v3-5) page 65 see Shadowbane Inquisitor

http://www.scribd.com/doc/468580/Ebe...mpaign-Setting (http://www.scribd.com/doc/468580/Eberron-Campaign-Setting) page 56 Knight Training (allows Multiclass between Paladin and another class)

[Jondallar]

Double post oops

[Swordalot]

First of all, I liked my Pure Pally. Till he hit 13, took 2 levels of fighter, and was later made obsolete by my khopesh-wielding Dwarven AC Fighter 14 / Pally 2. *ahem*

Off-topic: In regards to evil paladins, I point you all to the various non-Lawful Good paladin variants: Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures), Paladin of Slaughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofSlaughterClas sFeatures), and Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofTyrannyClassF eatures).

[gpk]

10. No one calls you gimp for using a shield

9. Saves make you effective beholder fodder

8. You get to RP you're Sir Lancelot

7. Evi Joss digs a man in full plate

6. You can Dominate the PUG discussion of "who has the higher AC and saves" while the barbarian kills everything

5. You can tell yourself that the mission was a success because your bulwark brought the Barbarians AC fro 14 to 18 helping conserve the cleric's mana.

4. A 200+ Lay hands is really clutch when used on the Cleric

3. You can freely chastise any multi-class Paladin's for not staying true to the PnP design

2. No one thinks you're gimp for getting outkilled by the bow using ranger

and the Number 1 reason to stay pure paladin!

1. Simply not getting killed makes your build considered a successful one!

LOL Gold!

I'd like reason #1 as my sig with your permission :)

[MrWizard]

women weaken legs.....

- mickey to rocky in rocky 1

best reason to remain 'pure'

[FluffyCalico]

While I agree that as a general rule you should not multi-class anything without a good reason sometimes there are good reasons and you can do something really good.

Example: Casters should not normally multiclass as it lowers their caster level
An exception: I had a 10 sorc 10 dragon diciple and it was one of the strongest level 20s I have ever seen in PnP.
You could make a list of 100 reasons not to do it but it would not change that I have had a level 20 sorc before and this was far more useful to my group this particular time.

So making a list of why noone should is bad as they do not apply to every person even if they apply to you.

[Vormaerin]

uhh, prestige classes are an entirely different issue. In fact, prestige classes make it so that its almost irrational to stay pure classes. In fact, it /is/ absolutely irrational to have a character with more than 10 sorc levels in p&p if you have a wide range of PrCs available. And its not much better for other classes.

Multiclasses a spellcasting class with another base class, however, is generally a highly risky proposition. There are certainly valid reasons, but you have to really think it through to make it work.

[FluffyCalico]

uhh, prestige classes are an entirely different issue. In fact, prestige classes make it so that its almost irrational to stay pure classes. In fact, it /is/ absolutely irrational to have a character with more than 10 sorc levels in p&p if you have a wide range of PrCs available. And its not much better for other classes.

Multiclasses a spellcasting class with another base class, however, is generally a highly risky proposition. There are certainly valid reasons, but you have to really think it through to make it work.

Pretty much agree. The main reason multiclassing came about wasn't variety, it was about 4 people and more than 4 roles to fill with only 3 characters as 1 person was DM. 1 person could multiclass so that they could help out on another role.

Example: Fighter, Cleric, Wizard Doah what about traps and locks. Also I have seen some DMs create a helper character that joins the party but is limited help.