Elite Pit Fiend part 5 is a bit much?

[Riggs]

Cr 38
About 4,000,000 hit points (not really exaggerating)
Ac 51 (not bad, but combined with above hp....)
DR 60 without silver and pure good, which IS a big issue with the above hit points.
Hits for 125 damage per hit(before crits, thats base damage)
Has evasion.

This is at least a level 30 battle. Three and a half hours for part 5 alone, 272 minutes total raid completion.
Epic and was fun and crazy, really nice to beat (and no no cheats/hacks/exploits/bugs were used since someone is bounds to say it by post 3). I will let Vesuvia and Wobert and others post screen shots if they want.

but I have to say.....

Rangers need 100% returning arrows, even if they are plain +1 or even +0. There is no possible way to carry enough arrows to last for a 2-4 hour fight, and I was down to using a borrowed throwing axe that did very little damage, only on crits, and with the ac was only critting like 1 in 50, or 1 in 100 shots at best. I ended up going through 300 slaying arrows of various types at the end just to fire off a couple shots at a time to destruct the pitfiend, and then went back to the crappy throwing axe. (Well it was wounding, but not great for a boss fight).

It took the expendature of many one-time only resources to do (i.e. genie cakes) as well as a large amount of mana pots and scrolls for clerics. There is no 'being careful with mana' when something is hitting melee for 125 damage on 2-3 attacks swings. And after the first hour was critting most of the time. (Dying over and over again breaks gear, and fort items)

AC really doesnt matter for this fight (as opposed to most others where it is possible to matter), but hit points barely matter too. Once you start getting crit for 250, and hit 3 times in 1-2 seconds...having 600 hp is only slightly more of a benefit over having 300. Oh, and of course add in 3.5 hours of dodging whirling blades that you cannot use ac, evasion, or any kind of defence whatsoever on to constantly be damaging people on top of the beatfest.

This is easily a level 30 fight. Took huge amounts of expendatures to beat. And not a single person got a cleansing item. So either the drop rate is crazy low, or only on 20th completion. Which is possible on normal, but crazy long grinding.

It was a great battle to beat, and it was mostly the others (once I ran out of arrows I was pretty much useless, since you cant have 6 people in melee at once, they all die).

However it seems a tad overpowered. What will be the boss in a level 20 raid? a level 50 monster with 20 million hit points and 100 dr? Velah with her dispelling breath, but running around? Not saying it should be a cakewalk by anymeans. Tactics evolved that would make it faster next time. But it will still be a 2+ hour beatfest even being a lot more effective with resources.

Its a great fight no question, and hats off to the devs for making a really epic boss. But maybe its a bit too epic? I shudder at the cost of bringing my cleric in to a 3.5 hour fight, I dont have the cash to buy that many mana pots(scrolls cant keep up with 300 damage a second output).

but it was fun to beat. Once.

[sirgog]

A 100% returning silver arrow would rock.

[aldan]

I went through on norm to completion and it wasnt tooooo bad. Its still a beating you get while tanking but I couldnt even imagine elite in there. Talk about costly, I would imagine the clerics had to have spent 80k plat a piece for that run.

[Glenalth]

Haven't done elite yet, but Transmuting Bow + Arcane Archer enhancement might be needed in that situation. (After using every available inventory space for 2500+ silver arrows through ubah holy bow of course)

[Chelsa]

However it seems a tad overpowered. What will be the boss in a level 20 raid? a level 50 monster with 20 million hit points and 100 dr? Velah with her dispelling breath, but running around? Not saying it should be a cakewalk by anymeans. Tactics evolved that would make it faster next time. But it will still be a 2+ hour beatfest even being a lot more effective with resources.

Its a great fight no question, and hats off to the devs for making a really epic boss. But maybe its a bit too epic? I shudder at the cost of bringing my cleric in to a 3.5 hour fight, I dont have the cash to buy that many mana pots(scrolls cant keep up with 300 damage a second output).

but it was fun to beat. Once.

With the right tactics (no exploits) and players the end fight takes between 10 to 20 mins. As for clerics, if people do not work together, it can be stupid expensive. All it should really take, between UMD users and 3 clerics is around 300 heal scrolls, which if somebody has good haggle, comes out to about 450K gold, or about 38k for each player. So, from a theoretical stand point, there are enough chests to easily pay for the raid and make a good profit.

[smatt]

Ha ha, not sure about the 4 mil HP Riggs..... It was alot whatever it was, some others were trying to do impossible math on it around here according to their damage output/time spent/et etc..... But that method of calcualtion would have so much possible variance they're just spouting out of their balloon heads ;). I might add that we did it the REAL way not the cheesy LEET (CHEAT) way, as probably 95% of the hard and elite completions have been :rolleyes:. We did use some Genie cakes but really those simply cut the time of the fight, it would've just been a bit more resource intensive without them, we were never even close to a wipe. I think after the run last night, in the future there would be far less death and therefore far less broken equipment... I was feeling like even more of a gimp without heavy fort/con/str/umd/ and whatever items then usual ;)

It was a tough and LOOOOONNNNNGGGGGG fight no doubt 271 min total with about 150 min spent in part 5. Very resource intensive, but after doing it once we all learned a lot about the Elite fight and the proper tactics to use. Looking back on it we wasted a lot of time before we got the right tactics down. But I agreee it is very hard to go in with enough resources to make it too the end. It was interesting that after he hit 50% health it seemed his AC started dropping as well as his saves, and then the last 25% went very fast compared to the first 25%, it was looking bleak there for a while.


But as far as the difficulty, I would say they should leave it as is. It should be hard, very hard, and very expensive. Players should have to think, bring the proper items, it should be made so that toons do have to strip any unneeded items to make room for resources etc. I like the challenge, although I don't think it's something I'll be running on elite often, it will certainly make norm completion runs a cake walk ;)

I just wish they'd fix it so that the people who're not REALLY beating it would'nt be able to brag about beating it when all they really did was "cheat" it, as said unmentioned names do oh so often with oh so many suppossed accomplishments :eek: It's not an impossible task, just a hard one a solid party with good leadership, and no zerging idiot hero types can beat it on elite. It's just expensive and time consuming......

Anyway, sorry to disagree with the difficulty factor Riggs, it was fun last night no doubt, a good solid run with a great group :)

[smatt]

With the right tactics (no exploits) and players the end fight takes between 10 to 20 mins. As for clerics, if people do not work together, it can be stupid expensive. All it should really take, between UMD users and 3 clerics is around 300 heal scrolls, which if somebody has good haggle, comes out to about 450K gold, or about 38k for each player. So, from a theoretical stand point, there are enough chests to easily pay for the raid and make a good profit.


Hmmm, are you talking elite? I simply don't see it being that fast on elite..... Surely it took us a long time to figure out the right tactics to use. But 20-30 minutes....... I doubt it really...... There may be something I'm not seeing though....

[Shade]

I think it's too easy.
Elite on the highest level raid is meant to be an incredible challenge. It was tough for our group but there was little chance of us failing in the end, given he does not kill people very fast and we had the dps to do it, and we beat it in our very first attempt. Really par4 is more challenging since it has a death penalty box.

Btw beat it twice now, first run was 123 minuits, 2nd run was slightly less. Resource use was quite reasonable in the first run, and even lower in the 2nd tho someone used that genie shrine (those never existed in our first run) End fight general takes about 30 minuits, which is fine for an epic raid boss battle.

It's not something I'm only gonna do once.. We will do elite probably once every 1-2 months at least, just for the challenge.

Probably the problem is that weaker groups CAN use those genie rest shrines and tons of resources and hours and hours to do it.. When really they shouldn't suceed because its too hard for them, but the pit fiend doesn't really kill party members fast enough to prevent it.

I say make it harder :cool:

[Riggs]

Anyway, sorry to disagree with the difficulty factor Riggs, it was fun last night no doubt, a good solid run with a great group :)

Heh no worries, my cleric is pretty whiney when it comes to healing. Hats off to the clerics in the group.

Yeah once I bring more arrows and better gear, I would be able to do a lot more damage than I did. Not sure about the hit points, but its a lot.

The 125 damage a hit thing is pretty epic....

[smatt]

Heh no worries, my cleric is pretty whiney when it comes to healing. Hats off to the clerics in the group.

Yeah once I bring more arrows and better gear, I would be able to do a lot more damage than I did. Not sure about the hit points, but its a lot.

The 125 damage a hit thing is pretty epic....


Ya it was bro..... Once we started solo tanking it and everybody concentrating on buffing and healing the one tank it got much easier though. I think maybe 2 tanks with the rest of the group split on healing and buffing might just work out well. But again... I'm personally not planning on another elite run at that for a very long time ;)

[query]

Now excuse me while I pick up my dead 240 used to have HP butt that died from the blades since nothing protects you from them....little reward evading or surviving that feind assult....

And if they gave us some way to figure out tactics BEFORE the expendature costs withiut exploiting or reading ahead, I'd agree with you.

But I think my Deepwoods Sniper is hosed unless somehow he can find returning arrows 100% and I DON'T want to respec him an Arcane Archer for that Raid every time on elite....

[smatt]

I think it's too easy.
Elite on the highest level raid is meant to be an incredible challenge. It was tough for our group but there was little chance of us failing in the end, given he does not kill people very fast and we had the dps to do it, and we beat it in our very first attempt. Really par4 is more challenging since it has a death penalty box.

Btw beat it twice now, first run was 123 minuits, 2nd run was slightly less. Resource use was quite reasonable in the first run, and even lower in the 2nd tho someone used that genie shrine (those never existed in our first run) End fight general takes about 30 minuits, which is fine for an epic raid boss battle.

It's not something I'm only gonna do once.. We will do elite probably once every 1-2 months at least, just for the challenge.

Probably the problem is that weaker groups CAN use those genie rest shrines and tons of resources and hours and hours to do it.. When really they shouldn't suceed because its too hard for them, but the pit fiend doesn't really kill party members fast enough to prevent it.

I say make it harder :cool:

Of course yet again Shade ATTEMPTS to find a way to put himself above ALL others with his snide arrogant comments of being the greatest of them all :D Are you this arrogant in real life????? If so I bet you end up with very few who even want to be within ear shot of you ;)

So Shade please provide all of us WEAKER palyers who couldn't even ever come close to your supreme LEETNESS :rolleyes: Exactly what tacitcs are you using, exactly how many resources are you using, show us your group make-up... Details details screen shots, vids, etc..... I accepted your DQ eliete 2 man boasts... I simply hate seeing braggers with no back-up ;) And then a couple other coherts come in as back up when they're FOS themselves. I find about 90% of the bragging that goes on around this joint to be total hot air.

I'm a skeptic and find that by calling people out the often don't have any back-up for their claims ;) Now you may not be FOS, and if you show something, then I'll eat my words otherwise...... :)

[Heladron]

Congrats

I saw some of the pictures that Wobert posted on our guild site.

I'm too cheap to run it right now. I didn't get to be a moderately well off cleric by running Shroud Raids. :)

[query]

I didn't plan on it this was pre ver 6 when people died and for some reason they didn't penalty box but appeared on the wrong side of the force field. I will admit I had to only finish off 95% of his health and I didn't continue so we could all get the credit at the end, but if that dummy of a reaver wants to fight an evading blue docent wearing warforged rogue/wizard whom he JUST gave fly to, guaranteeing his doom with fire specced setup after that last ball went blazing up earlier, go ahead.


And no, sorry no screenshots, since I din't want to brag when others were bugged stuck on the other side of the force field. Nor do I need to do it again nor prove I did it. I was there, the PUG was there; good enough for me...now give me my *&^&*(^*(^ +3 tome allready!

And I REALLY enjoied that "rant," funny smatt!
But to retrack my derailed topic here, yeah, Elite's just too hard without some suggestion of tactics for first time elite goers. We shouldn't have to each pay hundreds of thousands from expendatures and broken stuff from many deaths just to learn how. We should using common sense and resources available to elite players without a "tutorial" failure lesson that costly. Something is wrong when I have to proactively save my cake for this next run until we "perfect" our moves without expolits (and you cheaters can you know what off.)


Of course yet again Shade ATTEMPTS to find a way to put himself above ALL others with his snide arrogant comments of being the greatest of them all :D Are you this arrogant in real life????? If so I bet you end up with anybody who even watns to be within ear shot of you ;)

So Shade please provide all of us WEAKER palyers who couldn't even every come close to your supreme LEETNESS :rolleyes: Exactly what tacitcs are you using, exactly how many resources are you using, show us your group make-up... Details details screen shots vids..... I accepted your DQ eliete 2 man boasts... I simply hate seeing braggers with no back-up ;) And then a couple other coherts come in as back up when they're FOS themselves. I find about 90% of the bragging that goes on around this joint to be total hot air.

I'm a skeptic and find that by calling people out the often dont' ahve any back-up for their claims ;)

[Delt]

I think it's too easy.
Elite on the highest level raid is meant to be an incredible challenge. It was tough for our group but there was little chance of us failing in the end, given he does not kill people very fast and we had the dps to do it, and we beat it in our very first attempt. Really par4 is more challenging since it has a death penalty box.

Btw beat it twice now, first run was 123 minuits, 2nd run was slightly less. Resource use was quite reasonable in the first run, and even lower in the 2nd tho someone used that genie shrine (those never existed in our first run) End fight general takes about 30 minuits, which is fine for an epic raid boss battle.

It's not something I'm only gonna do once.. We will do elite probably once every 1-2 months at least, just for the challenge.

Probably the problem is that weaker groups CAN use those genie rest shrines and tons of resources and hours and hours to do it.. When really they shouldn't suceed because its too hard for them, but the pit fiend doesn't really kill party members fast enough to prevent it.

I say make it harder :cool:

For you, and the other guy who claims it takes 20-30 min on elite, I ask for a screenshot of your completion log. And it's not even that I don't believe it's possible (it probably is), but when you couple it with the claim it doesn't take many resources, I call BS. I've finished the Shroud plenty by now (norm, hard and elite runs), so much I'm burned out and breaking from the game...if you want to make part 5 go quicker, you need to eat mana pots and heavy scroll use, period. Otherwise you do a slow and steady approach and spend nothing.

Regardless, I think the fiend has far too many hitpoints. The end fight is more of a chore than an epic battle.

[Snoggy]

This is at least a level 30 battle. Three and a half hours for part 5 alone, 272 minutes total raid completion.


Welcome to Vex Thal!

;)

[Snoggy]

I think it's too easy. .... I say make it harder :cool:

Welcome to the Council of the Rathe!

;)

[ccheath776]

Elite is supposed to be pretty much nigh impossible.
I dont understand the need to do that unless your just aching for a challenge

[Cinwulf]

Wasn't that bad the first time I beat him on my ranger. We did it without any exploit and it took between 45-60 minutes. I had 5 stacks of returning arrows and a +5 transmuting bow starting in part 4. Used my last returning arrow when he was down to a sliver in part 5. Finished him off with a kill by returning shocking burst throwing hammers. This was on normal difficulty though.

[smatt]

Welcome to the Council of the Rathe!

;)


LOL, seems more Barry Bonds type council to me....... :cool:

Good, but arrogant, overblown, cheating, full of hot air, helium or some other head expanding gas, part of the good old boy network of questionables...... :D


It's easy to do AFTER you've learned it though the Cheese method....... I again ask of some kind of back-up... Oh there isn't any??? Talk is cheap ;)

[Snoggy]

LOL, seems more Barry Bonds type council to me....... :cool:

Yeah, but reading Shade's post I get the feeling he wants the encounter to function like the Council of the Rathe encounter originally functioned in EQ.

Which is my punchline.

You could substitute Rathe for C'thun's first incarnation in World of Warcraft and still get the same punchline.

It's an old gripe many MMO players like to accuse devs of doing. And it's great thread fodder as it chews up page after page of argument about who's the most hardcore raider out there. You see a little bit of that classic discussion in these forums when people agrue about The Abbott raid. But the Rathe Council really I think reflects Shade's post much more clearly.

;)

[maddmatt70]

Of course yet again Shade ATTEMPTS to find a way to put himself above ALL others with his snide arrogant comments of being the greatest of them all :D Are you this arrogant in real life????? If so I bet you end up with very few who even want to be within ear shot of you ;)

So Shade please provide all of us WEAKER palyers who couldn't even ever come close to your supreme LEETNESS :rolleyes: Exactly what tacitcs are you using, exactly how many resources are you using, show us your group make-up... Details details screen shots, vids, etc..... I accepted your DQ eliete 2 man boasts... I simply hate seeing braggers with no back-up ;) And then a couple other coherts come in as back up when they're FOS themselves. I find about 90% of the bragging that goes on around this joint to be total hot air.

I'm a skeptic and find that by calling people out the often don't have any back-up for their claims ;) Now you may not be FOS, and if you show something, then I'll eat my words otherwise...... :)

If you bother looking up in the achievement section our first elite run is still posted with the time, etc. We are due for another elite run in the next week or so and then we could post another I suppose. I agree with Shade in that I would have liked to have seen a little bit less of the focus on elite on a marathon session and more on survival. Some sort of crazy fire attack that the pit fiend shoots out every so often or something of the like.

The craziest thing about our group in my opinion is the moment we got of timer and we went in there we dispatched parts 1-4 on elite with relative ease, but instead of going for part 5 we elected to spend the next day sacking our characters on the raid on normal because it took too long to do 1-4 on elite and then went back in for an elite completion run after we were sacked which we beat on our first try, lol.

Congratulation on your accomplishment beating it on elite..

[smatt]

If you bother looking up in the achievement section our first elite run is still posted with the time, etc. We are due for another elite run in the next week or so and then we could post another I suppose. I agree with Shade in that I would have liked to have seen a little bit less of the focus on elite on a marathon session and more on survival. Some sort of crazy fire attack that the pit fiend shoots out every so often or something of the like.

The craziest thing about our group in my opinion is the moment we got of timer and we went in there we dispatched parts 1-4 on elite with relative ease, but instead of going for part 5 we elected to spend the next day sacking our characters on the raid on normal because it took too long to do 1-4 on elite and then went back in for an elite completion run after we were sacked which we beat on our first try, lol.

Congratulation on your accomplishment beating it on elite..


Well you know I'm always willign to gives props when due and I give you all props on the successes as well. We also had no problem running through 1-4 elite, we've been sacking 1-3 on elite with little problems over the weeks. It was easier than I thought it was going to be and 5, Well it was about what I expected to be honest. And as I said, once we got our tactics down it went rather smoothly reallly. But I do agree that maybe if they made it a bit less resource intensive and a bit harder in the aspect of oh **** the whole party just got wasted because we made a wrong move or were missing an important buff..... Well now that would be a bit more of a challenge in my eyes. As it is now, a good party with a good leader and the proper resources should be able to beat it.

As for my statement to Shade, well you know I see it all to often around here where people make grand claims only to be shown to be a bit on the well shady side :). And Shade, while he may be a very good player, is so over the top on the self-rubbing, that well.... It makes all those grand accomplishments, at least in my eyes to be moot. Another thign I see is players that put themselves on such a high shelf and it turns out really they're not all the much better than a good number of other vet players out there. It's one thing to boast a bit and give yourself and your buddies props.... But oh my..... Give me a break ;) And I'll tell you that at least some of the self-procalimed "leet" players at least on my server, use rather interesting tactics to learn the new quests, then once they know them and those tactical possiblities have been removed from the game by the powers that be, make grand claims of achievement, that were really based on experience garnered from things they learned while using said tactics. That's not "leet"......


So forgive me for my questioning ways...... But in the gaming world just as in many of the worlds I've been around all my life, things tend to get stretched, and manipulated. And those that are the loudest, most boa****l, arrogant, and twit-like, tend to be the ones driving the biggest bulldozer full of cow patties :) Keep in mind I'm not accusing any named person for using such tactics, but I know many did, have and are, and some of them have been boasting around these parts about accomplishments.

I will always give props and respect to those that are deserving, and those that treat others with the same....... But some people just don't deserve them no matter how "leet" they really are. :D

Now aside form all I've said, I respect great players, I make no claims of "leet" for myself. I am wha tI am, I've played for 18 months, am a decent enough player, not the bet not the worst and have no need to stoke myself. Nor do I need my buddies to stroke me either...... There are many many players that are much better than I ever will be. I can also be called an ass at times, I get touchy........ But what I am not is an arrogant idiot..... I also don't get overly excited when disuciing such thigns.... I laugh as I am now..... I laugh at how sad some realyl are and how desperate some are to be important.

I give props to you and your group Matt, for what it's worth from a lesser player :) But Shade can kiss my rosey red ass or simply look in the mirror and kiss what he sees, as it likely looks about the same ;)

[smatt]

Yeah, but reading Shade's post I get the feeling he wants the encounter to function like the Council of the Rathe encounter originally functioned in EQ.

Which is my punchline.

You could substitute Rathe for C'thun's first incarnation in World of Warcraft and still get the same punchline.

It's an old gripe many MMO players like to accuse devs of doing. And it's great thread fodder as it chews up page after page of argument about who's the most hardcore raider out there. You see a little bit of that classic discussion in these forums when people agrue about The Abbott raid. But the Rathe Council really I think reflects Shade's post much more clearly.

;)

Hmmmm OK, well digging through Shade's self stroking arrogance and belittling of all others is rather difficult. So I likely missed, or more likely ignored it ;) Forgive me for acting like the fmily dog thatrolls his eyes and sighs as one walks into the room....... :)

[GlassCannon]

The Pit Fiend is overpowered, overbuffed, and has so much HP it's obscene.

I want a Player that starts with 500 CON and +500% HP like him.

[Vesuvia]

I guess this is to whatever his name was saying he could be in a group to kill him in 10-20 minutes on elite. Your a liar or cheater. One or the other your not legit and your not elite. You want to know what it is? I'll show it to you..

Vesuvia

[suitepotato]

I think that the real rub is that were a pit fiend to make an appearance incarnate outside the Nine Hells, EVERY SINGLE CLERIC AND MAGIC USER, EVERY SINGLE PALADIN AND FIGHTER from every nearby land, would be gearing up for battle to destroy it as quickly as possible, and truly epic casters in AD&D are known for summoning and controlling DEMON LORDS, which are on the same level as a pit fiend. There's a reason Asmodeus uses them as his personal assistants, servants, and guards. Anything that ONLY fears entire pantheons of gods is going to be so powerful by definition that it would have an almost as powerful elite class directly beneath it. A pit fiend therefore risks incurring his master's wrath for all the complications and entanglements and would not actually appear.

Consider that and let it sink in. Asmodeus would go toe to toe in the right situation with Thor, but always fear the involvement of Odin and the others and act in a very circumspect way as a result. However, he is capable of duking it out with a god. A valkyrie would pause before tangling with a pit fiend but would probably be in a position to do it. Twelve little mortals? Impudence, gall, and daring.

So, the devs really need to seriously think before raising the levels to 18 and 20. By 20, we're looking at being able to six man the pit fiend, and that's the kind of near demigodhood that the gods of Eberron cannot ignore or stand for in their midst, as once people become godlike, what do they need the old gods for? It's like daring them to wipe the entire world clean if only to defend their turf from their former minions and worshippers. We're getting into silly power levels now. And yet, a bunch of kobolds in Kobol Assault on elite can still stand a good chance to slaughter a level sixteen fighter on elite. That's... kind of bizarre and disproportionate.

BTW, congratulations to smatt and company. On our server? Oh yeah, do it to it for Ghallanda!

[maddmatt70]

I guess this is to whatever his name was saying he could be in a group to kill him in 10-20 minutes on elite. Your a liar or cheater. One or the other your not legit and your not elite. You want to know what it is? I'll show it to you..

Vesuvia

We killed the pit fiend in 10-20 minutes on elite as well so I guess that makes us liars or cheaters too then. You sir should rethink your strategy or maybe you are not as elite as you thought.

[TwoHeals]

I say make it harder :cool:
I agree.

Part 5 of the Shroud should have spawns coming out of them like part 1 including the blades :D
Include the penalty box in all parts of the raid.

Poor Shade, don’t even tell people you had a group one time that took down each portal in part 1 in under 16 sec or killed the pit fiend in part 4 in the first wave lol

As far as healing in the Shroud, I respecced my clerics for wand and scroll mastery 4 that helps a lot in there when you are out of sp and using scrolls. Most casters I know can reach umd of 38ish so no reason they can’t help heal using heal scrolls.

[edana]

Pit Fiend also have Light Fortification (25%), with dr 60 (elite) and 25% fort, it lower melee's dps, especially if melee use weapons that rely on crit effect, dps is even worse without silver and good (holy or puregood), just my 2 cents

[Vesuvia]

Unless you have a video proving you can kill him 10-20 minutes on elite in part 5 I don't believe you. If there is some proof of this then I'll gladly eat my words until then I reserve my previous statement.

Actually with his HPs I'd be surprised if you could kill him in 10-20 minutes if you had him bugged out standing there and everyone beating on him.

[maddmatt70]

Unless you have a video proving you can kill him 10-20 minutes on elite in part 5 I don't believe you. If there is some proof of this then I'll gladly eat my words until then I reserve my previous statement.

Actually with his HPs I'd be surprised if you could kill him in 10-20 minutes if you had him bugged out standing there and everyone beating on him.


Below is the achievement thread with our first completion time which was 123 minutes and our second completion was faster, but I dont recall what that completion time was. I would estimate in our first completion the time spent at the pit fiend was close to 20 minutes. We don't do cheese or any of that stuff that your referring to because quite frankly what is the point of doing that. Why in the world do you need videotape for everything. Come to khyber and check our group out if you really are so set in not believing and need visual evidence..

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=135837

[Shade]

Unless you have a video proving you can kill him 10-20 minutes on elite in part 5 I don't believe you. If there is some proof of this then I'll gladly eat my words until then I reserve my previous statement.

Actually with his HPs I'd be surprised if you could kill him in 10-20 minutes if you had him bugged out standing there and everyone beating on him.

Yea I wouldn't believe it either.

I'm pretty sure Chelsa was talking about on normal, where sub 10min kills are rather easy.

[Vesuvia]

Maddmat70, Yeah well that's nice and all you have a completion time, but until I actually see him fighting back for 10-20 minutes while he dies..I dont believe it. Yeah we all know for a while when it first came out you could simply 'destruction' him or use summons to 'bug' him. Which I'm sure would keep completion time down...and I'm sure ours was quite low going into that part 5 as 1-4 are easy. Either way..still don't believe you so good job at proving absolutely nothing. I'm not saying the fight has to take hours..but 10-20 minutes? I mean when you get lucky and he rolls a 1 (maybe 2 lol) and your disintegrate crits and you do 1,000+ damage and his bar doesnt move?...makes me doubt it happened.

What makes it even more unbelievable is your parties makeup.

Ok 4 clerics totally understand that's what we used.
1 Bard..yeah us to and he's a battle bard for + dmg
2 Sorcs and 1 Wizard....<- That makes no since..as we used 1 Sorc
You had 2 Barbs, 1 Fighter 1 Ranger...and we had 4 Fighters 2 Rangers..so your dps was lacking.

Yeah I dont believe it happened in 10-20 minutes like you suggest. Yeah I'm sure you beat it as seen by your photo, but to do such so fast without using any 'questionable' method....yeah.

[Knightrose]

While I feel the Shroud raid is easy, the Pit Fiend himself is by far the most uninteresting raid boss to date. It reminds me way too much of WoW. As a melee I feel like a Gnat, gnawing on the skin of an elephant.

While I can still retain some evidence of the game being D&D in other raids. I feel completely like I'm playing a different game when I run the Shroud and fight the Pit Fiend.

It's actually pretty disenchanting. If this is how future raid bosses will be then I will likely quit playing. Way too boring.

[Riggs]

I think it's too easy.
Elite on the highest level raid is meant to be an incredible challenge. It was tough for our group but there was little chance of us failing in the end, given he does not kill people very fast and we had the dps to do it, and we beat it in our very first attempt. Really par4 is more challenging since it has a death penalty box.

Btw beat it twice now, first run was 123 minuits, 2nd run was slightly less. Resource use was quite reasonable in the first run, and even lower in the 2nd tho someone used that genie shrine (those never existed in our first run) End fight general takes about 30 minuits, which is fine for an epic raid boss battle.

It's not something I'm only gonna do once.. We will do elite probably once every 1-2 months at least, just for the challenge.

Probably the problem is that weaker groups CAN use those genie rest shrines and tons of resources and hours and hours to do it.. When really they shouldn't suceed because its too hard for them, but the pit fiend doesn't really kill party members fast enough to prevent it.

I say make it harder :cool:

After reading the description of how you beat the queen with the neutral barb, I can believe that you can back up your claims(and checked out the thread on the win).

As someone posted though, it can become a discussion of how elite do you have to be to raid?

I am far from the fast twitch player needed to do what your barb could do on the queen. And I dont have the ability to turn my existing ftr/melee type into a raging barb. My ranger does well, but I need a lot more arrows to be effective it seems. (The guy who posted he only needed 5 stacks of arrows wasnt doing the main damage clearly. I ran out of 4 stacks of arrows after a couple minutes, thats a couple minutes into a 3 hour fight. Having 1 more stack of arrows wasnt the deal breaker....)

Some people have reffered to other raids in other mmos (which I have never played), and it seems to be a trend that some people expect multi hour uber raids that only the best of the best can do.

I certainly expect a hard fight. But it is a matter of power creep. Why exactly should clerics be needing to use a stack of 100 heal scrolls, 10 wands, dozens of res scrolls, mana pots ect - to complete a mission? If mana potions were sold by someone other than plat farmers maybe that would be ok - but right now they are not. And you cannot heal anyone just with scrolls when something is doing 125-250 damage every 1-2 seconds, considering the timer on a level 6 scroll and how much it heals.

As I mentioned, it is not that it is a hard fight - but that it is a level 30 fight basically. This has been an ongoing thing that as players level up, the big names not only are harder - but are way beyond most players ability to fight straight up - which is one of the main reasons people look for exploits so much - if 99&#37; of the players cannot melee the guy, or fight him normally...then yeah people are going to try to bug bosses out.

So what happens at level 18? level 20? We are already fighting a boss that is pretty far above other level 16 monsters. In old D&D players could fight gods at level 20. The difference was Thor had 399 hit points, armor class -7, and did 2 attacks per round with a hammer that did like d8 +20 damage. That was a 2nd edition god. Live action mmos is of course a different beast.

Part 5 should be a lot harder than part 4. (But the rewards should also match the challenge - and they are very far from that).

People do the queen in way that usually involve ranged in some way, as melee has become pointless (except for a few people...), the thing being that a certain boss is so overpowered in areas that it is next to impossible to fight except in certain select ways.

If the Pit fiend becomes yet another raid where "ok bring your uber high hp barb, or dont come" kind of fights, it will be really disappointing. Sure ranged is effective over time...but that is because for most people melee is impossible unless you have high hp and 3 clerics spamming heals on you.

And just to note - in 2nd edition, players could go toe to toe with gods....and win (well their avatars anyway). Which was its own imbalance - but the point is that a high level fighter type was a force to be reckoned with - and could beat a mass of enemies or a single high level one. Not 'hey its cool that your high level and all, just makes you a two whacker' *splat.

Balance is the goal. Just not for everyone. (ok time to stop rambling)

[captain1z]

Following your Thor 2nd edition logic also remember Thor would be at least level 50 20 fighter/20 cleric/ 10 wizard with no spell failure a ton of immunities and special abilities ................ which was true of all 2nd edition gods. <check your books>


fighting a 20th level group


gods also had the ability to instantly slay 100 HD of combined creatures once every hour.

[Bronko]

We killed the pit fiend in 10-20 minutes on elite as well so I guess that makes us liars or cheaters too then. You sir should rethink your strategy or maybe you are not as elite as you thought.

For crying out loud...

Suitepotato was able to give us a simple pat on the back for beating the hardest raid in the game on the hardest setting. I'm not quite understanding why Shade has to come out with a "ya, but we're still better than you" attitude and anyone on this server would bother taking the same stance.

Quite simply it comes down to this: we beat the friggin' thing fair and square. As Smatt already posted: the Birthday Cake shrines did absolutely nothing to change the tide of the battle. They only shaved off about 20 grueling minutes from our fight time. I know others have beat this thing and kudos to everyone one of them. I'm not about to call anyone a liar. I'm not bothering to take away from my gaming time and post a reply rebutting anyone's claims that they were able to beat this in less time than us without bugging the Pit Fiend or finding some other exploit. It doesn't change that fact that we beat it straight up ourselves using nothing more than our own game-plan and excellent teamwork. :cool:

Speaking of teamwork, I was proud to be in the "Dirty Bling Dragon Knights of THAC0 Inc." as we ended up calling ourselves as a tribute to the six guilds present. Leave it to Wobert to come up with a crazy impromptu name like that for our raid party. :rolleyes:

If anyone thinks any less of our team because we took a whopping 272 minutes to complete things then they can kiss the whitest part of my dragonscale covered butt. It may have been long and grueling run but it was by far the funnest thing I've done since I took on Velah for the first time. I don't think we could have assembled a better team in terms of coming up with a game plan, overcoming adverse DCs and deaths, and being able to flawlessly change tactics on the fly. I'll gladly call on any of the swords and spells from that night without hesitation because not only did we work well together we also had a complete blast. And last time I checked that was what this game was really all about.

Oh by the way, I do think I'm pretty damned elite. And I'll vouch for every single person that was on that run as being the same.

[Ganak]

So what about for a party of 12 rangers I wonder....hmmmm.....

I shall sleep on it.

[smatt]

I agree.

Part 5 of the Shroud should have spawns coming out of them like part 1 including the blades :D
Include the penalty box in all parts of the raid.

Poor Shade, don’t even tell people you had a group one time that took down each portal in part 1 in under 16 sec or killed the pit fiend in part 4 in the first wave lol

As far as healing in the Shroud, I respecced my clerics for wand and scroll mastery 4 that helps a lot in there when you are out of sp and using scrolls. Most casters I know can reach umd of 38ish so no reason they can’t help heal using heal scrolls.


Ahhh more ooozing arrogance, I love it ...... I hate when the real world seeps into the gaming world and the types I leave the real world to get away from show up :) Stroke your buddy, yaaaaa stroke long and hard....... Ya a little to the left a little to the right........ Oh wait the GM's are watching :)

[nakedfatguy]

All i see is, "[eaten by cube] i cant do it so everyone else must be cheating!!!!1". [eaten by cube] find a way to beat it. If it was easy, it'd be no fun.

[Snoggy]

Some people have reffered to other raids in other mmos (which I have never played), and it seems to be a trend that some people expect multi hour uber raids that only the best of the best can do.


Ok. Gonna explain the punchline, only because you didn't play the games, so I kind of feel obligated.

The Rathe Council is an encounter from an Everquest expansion called the Planes of Power. In that expansion you had to move through the various "planes" and fight their "gods" (or avatars). It was all linked into a very specific hierarchy. You had tier 1, tier 2, etc, etc, etc. And you finished in the Plane of Time, where you went back in "time" to fight all of the gods again, and then fight the big mega-boss dragon who was corrupting time.

To accomplish this everyone in your raid party (thus everyone in your guild, which was about 80 to 100 people) had to go through each and every leg to get keyed or "flagged" for each new encounter. Think of it like a turnstile at a subway. You just had to keep getting new tokens and going through new turnstiles to get to new destinations.

That's the cliff's notes version.

The PUNCHLINE is ...

The last fight before the Plane of Time was ... The Council of the Rathe. The big bad boss fight of the elemental plane of earth. There were 12 members of the council. And the fight was impossible.

Literally.

Impossible.

Because the encounter was incomplete. And couldn't be finished. It was released as broken content.

On purpose.

Could not be beaten.

So my punchline is ... Shade wants the Pit Fiend on elite "harder."

Shade wants the Rathe Council. Purposely broken content.

ASIDE: The other punchline ... C'Thun. From World of Warcraft. When they released the patch with AQ, the big raid zone in the desert that was a half-tier in upgrades from Blackwing Lair gear ... the final boss was ...

Broken. Could not be defeated.

On purpose.

Now both the Rathe Council and C'Thun were eventually fixed.

But the punchline remains the same. Because the tone and meat of threads on the issue remains the same. It's all about who's the most hardcore raider. You can see it here. People are now talking about beating the Pit Fiend on Elite in 10-20 minutes. And how it nees to be made harder.

You can find the same style of discussion in threads about the Abbott raid. "Oh it's broken fix it" gets countered with "well soandso can beat it, it's fine, leave it as it is, it's a challenge" etc, etc, etc.

;)

The encounters keep changing, but the fights all seem to eventually land us in the same place ... whacking on a big boss monster with millions of hit points in fights that take over 10 minutes of continuous melee that becomes so boring, all people who conquer it eventually end up doing is arguing with each other about who does more DPS.

:P

[Vormaerin]

The idea that pit fiends are somehow an inappropriate challenge for lvl 17 characters is simply wrong. Pit fiends are nasty, the most powerful devils short of the actual dukes of hell and the archdukes. They are scary. But so are a dozen lvl 16 characters. You talk about all these powerful sorts responding to the threat... well, guess what? That's what happened. The Twelve are those powerful sorts in Ebberon and they gathered up a dozen of the most powerful heroes that they could find to send on the task. If this were p&p, there wouldn't be hundreds of lvl 16s running around Stormreach. Instead, those 12 guys were probably gathered via teleport and other such magics from Twelve operations in multiple cities on multiple continents.

Also, the idea that a raid that is flagged at lvl 18 or 19 on elite might be out of reach of the typical lvl 16 party is hardly unreasonable. If it was only for the best of the best on normal, that would be an issue. But the average group shouldn't be surprised to need another couple levels under their belt to beat the raid.

I saw someone in another thread comment that the titan on elite should have been released able to be beaten by a lvl 10 party. I just don't understand that. Its not a lvl 10 quest on elite.... Eladrin claims elite quests are often more like lvl +5 in difficulty, though I think that is mostly untrue. Didn't the devs say that lvl 15+ base quests have an elite mode that is more of an upgrade over normal than is true elsewhere?

[Ellistran]

Beatn it with shade 3-5 times elite. Takes 2hrs with 10min break between part 4 and 5. Never have we used any of all the cheats that can be used in this raid. Last night we did it with five of the players we normally run with and pugged the other 7spots. I think we did it in 130min or so. We recorded it for you so i hope your hungry :)

[Angelus_dead]

I saw someone in another thread comment that the titan on elite should have been released able to be beaten by a lvl 10 party. I just don't understand that.
You are probably mis-reading whatever comment you're thinking of. When released, the Titan on NORMAL was not practically beatable by anyone at the highest level allowed in the game.

They eventually fixed the Titan so not only could level 10s beat it on normal, they can beat it on elite too.

[Amaras]

This raid honestly isn't that hard, the problems with it I shall now list:
1) Takes way too long on part 5 (Ran it on Hard difficulty with 4 elite rangers 4 clerics 1 bard 2 sorc 1 Barbarian) It took 2 hours of shooting arrows and meleeing (Luckily I was smart and loaded up the flame arrow spell so we could get more ammo)
2) LAG lag lag lag and more lag. It seems as though you have a luck of the draw when opening shroud instances. Part one bugs out some times, a portal keeper will be "Invisable" untill just before he makes you fail the quest, also they will appear at places where there is no portal at all.
3) Lag - After each battle and you approach the chests there is a huge amount of lag
4) part 5, he moves are TOO MUCH, it looks as though he his hasted, has barbarian haste boost feat 4 on constantly. Also it looks as though he missed his riddalin meds today.

[stockwizard5]

We killed the pit fiend in 10-20 minutes on elite as well so I guess that makes us liars or cheaters too then.

Us too I guess ...

1. Verify the gear - Verify BYPASS DR and NOT HIT THROUGH IT - Verify DPS!
2. Have a Bard (Warchanter ideal)
3. Have Supplies - Use Scrolls, Wands, and Potions - Start Fight with Full Mana and Buffs - Learn to "Mana Up" Quickly
4. Fire Resistance, Fire Protection, Fire Absorption 100&#37; of the Time - Stoneskin, Displacement, Haste 100% of the Time
5. Don't fight on Brink of Death or with Death Penalty - Don't Fight Unbuffed
6. Have a Strategy - Have a Plan - Have Everyone KNOW the Strategy/Plan - Follow the Strategy/Plan

We use Ranged and Melee range and melee, Healers heal, and Casters buff/debuff - granted a simple plan but works for us.

End Fight: 3 Melees (75+) or TWF (50+) and 3 Ranged (50+) at constant output for 20 minutes is more than enough.

Note 1: Many groups are substantially over these DPS numbers and hence take less time.
Note 2: A majority of all attacks are both flanked and sneak eligible - there is huge DPS to be had there.
Note 3: Evil Outsider (Lawful) Favored Enemy - huge DPS to be had there.
Note 4: A +5 Greatsword of Greater Evil Outsider Bane is USELESS - DO NOT LISTEN - bypass DR ONLY.

[Angelus_dead]

4. Fire Resistance, Fire Protection, Fire Absorption 100% of the Time - Stoneskin, Displacement, Haste 100% of the Time
Why do you want displacement? And remember that stoneskin is only minorly helpful to barbarians.


We use Ranged and Melee range and melee, Healers heal, and Casters buff - granted a simple plan but works for us.
Casters should also be sure to DEBUFF. And extend them to last over 16 minutes.

[Riggs]

Ok. Gonna explain the punchline, only because you didn't play the games, so I kind of feel obligated.

The Rathe Council is an encounter from an Everquest expansion called the Planes of Power. In that expansion you had to move through the various "planes" and fight their "gods" (or avatars). It was all linked into a very specific hierarchy. You had tier 1, tier 2, etc, etc, etc. And you finished in the Plane of Time, where you went back in "time" to fight all of the gods again, and then fight the big mega-boss dragon who was corrupting time.

To accomplish this everyone in your raid party (thus everyone in your guild, which was about 80 to 100 people) had to go through each and every leg to get keyed or "flagged" for each new encounter. Think of it like a turnstile at a subway. You just had to keep getting new tokens and going through new turnstiles to get to new destinations.

That's the cliff's notes version.

The PUNCHLINE is ...

The last fight before the Plane of Time was ... The Council of the Rathe. The big bad boss fight of the elemental plane of earth. There were 12 members of the council. And the fight was impossible.

Literally.

Impossible.

Because the encounter was incomplete. And couldn't be finished. It was released as broken content.

On purpose.

Could not be beaten.

So my punchline is ... Shade wants the Pit Fiend on elite "harder."

Shade wants the Rathe Council. Purposely broken content.

ASIDE: The other punchline ... C'Thun. From World of Warcraft. When they released the patch with AQ, the big raid zone in the desert that was a half-tier in upgrades from Blackwing Lair gear ... the final boss was ...

Broken. Could not be defeated.

On purpose.

Now both the Rathe Council and C'Thun were eventually fixed.

But the punchline remains the same. Because the tone and meat of threads on the issue remains the same. It's all about who's the most hardcore raider. You can see it here. People are now talking about beating the Pit Fiend on Elite in 10-20 minutes. And how it nees to be made harder.

You can find the same style of discussion in threads about the Abbott raid. "Oh it's broken fix it" gets countered with "well soandso can beat it, it's fine, leave it as it is, it's a challenge" etc, etc, etc.

;)

The encounters keep changing, but the fights all seem to eventually land us in the same place ... whacking on a big boss monster with millions of hit points in fights that take over 10 minutes of continuous melee that becomes so boring, all people who conquer it eventually end up doing is arguing with each other about who does more DPS.

:P


lol - that is pretty whacked. Im glad I play DDO heh. That kind of 'hardcore' can be left to those who enjoy it.

[Vesuvia]

I'm not gonna say we had to take 272 minutes by any means. There was quite some downtime between parts for people going afk and or crafting, but just saying well it took us 130 minutes. Means your probably spent a good hour on the pitfiend as you can do 1-4 in an hour flat.

[Vormaerin]

You are probably mis-reading whatever comment you're thinking of. When released, the Titan on NORMAL was not practically beatable by anyone at the highest level allowed in the game.

They eventually fixed the Titan so not only could level 10s beat it on normal, they can beat it on elite too.

I'm well aware that it was essentially unbeatable. I was around then. I'd have to look for the quote again, but its not really that important. The poster was just expressing the idea that since the lvl cap was 10 and the quest was in the game (even if rated 12), then it was clearly intended that lvl 10s could beat the quest. This idea I don't understand at all.

Similarly, I don't think that just because the Shroud has an elite component that it is necessary that typical groups of lvl 16s be able to beat it in a reasonable fashion. Its several levels over their head. That there are groups that can beat it in a reasonable fashion is fine, but for it to be expected is not. IMHO.

[Angelus_dead]

The poster was just expressing the idea that since the lvl cap was 10 and the quest was in the game (even if rated 12), then it was clearly intended that lvl 10s could beat the quest. This idea I don't understand at all.
That's perfectly true. What don't you understand?

Do you think that somehow the devs thought it was a good idea to put in an unbeatable quest? Of course not. That's a waste of their time, and a waste of their customers' time, and too much of that depletes the customer base.

In DDO (or in D&D in general), there is enough variability in character power that some above-average level 10s can do better at a quest than some average level 12s.

[Vormaerin]

Did you read either of my posts?


That there are groups that can beat it in a reasonable fashion is fine, but for it to be expected is not. IMHO.

Of course there are groups that can do it, either through superior character build/equipment or superior game play skill. But it is not a god given right to be able to complete lvl 12 quests with lvl 10s. The fact that a quest with a rating higher than the level cap is in the game does not mean that the devs expect everyone with capped characters to be running that quest.

But I don't think you and I actually disagree with anything here, Angelus. I was commenting on a suggestion in another thread I felt relevant here because the particular poster I responded to was arguing about appropriate challenges. IMHO, a lvl 12 quest should be an appropriate challenge for lvl 12s. That you may be able to do it earlier than that is a bonus, not something conferred simply because lvl 12 isn't in the game yet. Or, in the case of the shroud elite, lvl 18.

[Strykersz]

Rathe Council was actually beatable on release. The story is much, much worse than that. They emergency patched it once people got close to beating it and made it unbeatable. Why? The final raid zone wasn't ready yet. This was 4ish months after the expansion the zone was released in had been sold. Then, 2-3 months later(once Time was done), they released the patch that made it a beatable encounter(and tuned it downwards in a couple of other patches over the next few weeks). And by beatable, I mean you bring 70+ people, about half of which must be the right classes(they get to stand around for hours at a time while various people do their incredibly boring and repetitive jobs) and the rest can be anything else(pretty much). Boy do I not miss playing EQ/SOE owned games.

[smatt]

We killed the pit fiend in 10-20 minutes on elite as well so I guess that makes us liars or cheaters too then. You sir should rethink your strategy or maybe you are not as elite as you thought.


I hope that vid of your's shows you killing part 5 Pit fiend on elite in 10-20 min.... This I want to see :)

[maddmatt70]

I hope that vid of your's shows you killing part 5 Pit fiend on elite in 10-20 min.... This I want to see :)

It took us 30 min or so this time, but I am not sure. The whole quest was about 2 hours I believe. We pugged out 6 members of our group (4 we run with on occasion and 2 we had never run with). Shade was playing his sorc not his barbarian, Ellistran (main is his wizard) was playing his cleric, I was playing my cleric (my main is norg or maybe my bards), Doktr was playing one of his mains/cleric, cay(main is a ranger was playing his spellsinger bard), and twoheals was playing his barbarian although his main are his clerics.

The reason why it took so long for you guys is people died. This quest is about people not dying. Our goal is to not let people die and we are fairly successful at it. It sounds like other groups are also fairly successful at not letting people die as well.

[smatt]

It took us 30 min or so this time, but I am not sure. The whole quest was about 2 hours I believe. We pugged out 6 members of our group (4 we run with on occasion and 2 we had never run with). Shade was playing his sorc not his barbarian, Ellistran (main is his wizard) was playing his cleric, I was playing my cleric (my main is norg or maybe my bards), Doktr was playing one of his mains/cleric, cay(main is a ranger was playing his spellsinger bard), and twoheals was playing his barbarian although his main are his clerics.

The reason why it took so long for you guys is people died. This quest is about people not dying. Our goal is to not let people die and we are fairly successful at it. It sounds like other groups are also fairly successful at not letting people die as well.


Ahh yes, I understand that dying in there is a bad thing. We also spent about an hour trying to figure out the proper tactic on the MoFo. Once we figured out the proper tactics it moved along nicely. Now this of course was out first elite compeltion run, a couple had doen hard and a few had done normal completion. I persoanlyl had been more busy farming for ingrediants rather than doing completion and had also waited for the proper group to asemble for an elite try. Onve we figured out the proper tactic in part 5 there were only a couple of deaths, but after discussion of adjustments I think a part5 5 elite run with very little or no death is very likely and therefore a much quiker endeavour. Although, I'm still not seeing part 5 elite in 20 minutes, I just don't see how the DPS math would ever work out to that scenario. 30 minutes, ya sure why not. But 10/20 nope don't see it even with the best of the best. Now perhaps that might change with uber crafted weaposn made speciafically for PF damage. I think Riggs orginal post about the insane amount of Hit points this guy has on elite is on the mark, it is a lot, and it is very time consuming. And for a lot of groups it's always going to be a long resource consuming run. But if the "l33t" would stop with the fancy math about what it took and what it cost them :). Tehre's a big differenance between 20 min and 30 min, or NO mana pots and well it was actually 10 mana pots, oh and really it was 190 heal scrolls not 100. You see what I mean, when people brag they tend to leave out the little details or make what they see at the time as slight adjustments or creative estimations. It's kind of like the gas stations and how stores post $9.99 on an item, peopel see the $9.00, and not the .99 that actually makes it $10.

I did some guesstimates on time spent/wasted on our run, and with afk's dc's taken out our time first run elite compeltion as well as first run for completion for several of us would've been about 230 minutes. Remove the hour wasted trying to figure out proper tactics, and it goes down to about 170 minutes. Now with that assupmtion, at least with the exact group we ran we could get it down into the 140 minute range without a problem. It would all depend on how part 5 went, and more precise DPS numbers.


All that being said Matt, again I respect what you have to say and I respect the quality of the players you play with, and I'm sure Shade is a very good player, and would liekly respect him as a player as well. What I don't respect is Shade's personality ;) You on the other hand seem to be a very level headed guy. It's one thing to say hey we did this and this Boo Yah! But another to say Hey we did this and that and everybody else sucks and here kiss my foot because I'm so awesome all the time ;) Also he has a tendancy to perform one feat ALMOST or 1 time and then write as if it's what he accomplishes all the time, let's call it creative embelishment. Well to me that's major downer and really a demoralizing factor among a vast amount of the player base. If so many take his exact words without seeing through this fascade he lifts so highly, well........ It's all fine and dandy to be an elite player, and to talk about your accomplishments. But to constantly ridicule all others while doing so, makes one a little person, and at least in my eyes deserving of net 0 respect ;)


Good luck on the future endeavours and I realyl would like to see this vid you all made of your run ;)

[stoc]

Maddmat70, Yeah well that's nice and all you have a completion time, but until I actually see him fighting back for 10-20 minutes while he dies..I dont believe it. Yeah we all know for a while when it first came out you could simply 'destruction' him or use summons to 'bug' him. Which I'm sure would keep completion time down...and I'm sure ours was quite low going into that part 5 as 1-4 are easy. Either way..still don't believe you so good job at proving absolutely nothing. I'm not saying the fight has to take hours..but 10-20 minutes? I mean when you get lucky and he rolls a 1 (maybe 2 lol) and your disintegrate crits and you do 1,000+ damage and his bar doesnt move?...makes me doubt it happened.

What makes it even more unbelievable is your parties makeup.

Ok 4 clerics totally understand that's what we used.
1 Bard..yeah us to and he's a battle bard for + dmg
2 Sorcs and 1 Wizard....<- That makes no since..as we used 1 Sorc
You had 2 Barbs, 1 Fighter 1 Ranger...and we had 4 Fighters 2 Rangers..so your dps was lacking.

Yeah I dont believe it happened in 10-20 minutes like you suggest. Yeah I'm sure you beat it as seen by your photo, but to do such so fast without using any 'questionable' method....yeah.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~Death will be swift~
Vesuvia Hellfyre - THAC0

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Last edited by Vesuvia : 03-11-2008 at 06:23 PM.


All I can say to this is you have obviously never participated in a party with the fine folks in this screen shot http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2609/screenshot01537bn6.jpg . If you have you would not question this accomplishment. I do get to party with these individuals from time to time and I can attest to the fact that they do make the rather difficult or seemingly impossible seem easy. Try to group up with them sometime and you will never say they are lacking on DPS again. :)

[Angelus_dead]

Although, I'm still not seeing part 5 elite in 20 minutes, I just don't see how the DPS math would ever work out to that scenario. 30 minutes, ya sure why not. But 10/20 nope don't see it even with the best of the best. Now perhaps that might change with uber crafted weaposn made speciafically for PF damage. I think Riggs orginal post about the insane amount of Hit points this guy has on elite is on the mark, it is a lot, and it is very time consuming.
Lol, those guys have better weapons than anything conceivably craftable.
You can't make something equivalent to a +2 Transmuting Greataxe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. There's just no way.

[eyepuppy]

You know, after I relooked at how we did the raid, I think we can really crop the time down to about 45 minutes in part 5. I don't think you can tap it down much more than that though. This was our first time in part 5 on elite. The tactics you use going from normal to elite changes. We had one tank in there, but I think we could have put 2 in there and been ok for the most part.

We really had a good, ohh, 30 minutes where we were waiting on people to not be afk. The Riggs went link dead in part 5 for about 15 minutes. You can through that on the stack for afk if you want. We waited on him for a while until the pit field came down. Also, we wasted about 45 minutes in part 5 figuring out how we were going to beat this guy. He is hard, but he can be beaten. Here are some screenshots of when we beat this guy to prove that we did not bug this guy to win.

This guy went down in 8 runs in part 4 (would have been 6 maybe 7 had our ONLY caster not died like a noob!). Everyone in our group was a good player. We had to switch strategies around multiple times in order to acomidate for fallen heros. This is one thing we did well. In part 4, we did sweat when the caster died. We all knew what to do right away. These guys all have my sword any day of the week.

http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii185/eyepuppy/DDO%20Shroud%20Completion%201/

Also, you said you just made a run in 30 minutes... Where are the freaking screenshots? You keep saying, we did it we did it! Where's the proof? A simple couple of screenshots during part 5 will do. Shesh.

You know, I just soloed the dragon, titan, reaver, abbot, AND the shroud last night by myself. I am so freaking awesome. I don't have a screenshot though, you will just have to take my word on it.

[stockwizard5]

Just did some DPS testing on normal last night in part 5 as a sanity check ...

Barbarian 1: 174.2
Ranger 1: 125.8
Ranger 2: 127.0
Multi TWF: 278.9

10 minutes is clearly sufficient for the actual fight.

[eyepuppy]

Just did some DPS testing on normal last night in part 5 as a sanity check ...

Barbarian 1: 174.2
Ranger 1: 125.8
Ranger 2: 127.0
Multi TWF: 278.9

10 minutes is clearly sufficient for the actual fight.

Note, we are talking about elite runs. 10 minutes will not be enough. You can only have 2 tanks in at a time, else they will just die too fast. My fighter with his items (without rages) has 503 HP and dies in 4 hits with heavy fort on. You can't tell me many rangers will be able to withstand more than 4 hits before they die.

[Cinwulf]

Nevermind :p

edit: I said something that probably didn't need to be brought up as it would just open a new can of worms.

[maddmatt70]

Note, we are talking about elite runs. 10 minutes will not be enough. You can only have 2 tanks in at a time, else they will just die too fast. My fighter with his items (without rages) has 503 HP and dies in 4 hits with heavy fort on. You can't tell me many rangers will be able to withstand more than 4 hits before they die.

You can have more then two tanks in there. Mass healing would probably be very expensive and may not be enough even if you turn on quicken, maximize, empower healing, etc, but one cleric per tank works with the others helping out healing with scrolls and raising the dead. The best group may be the following 5 clerics 5 barbarians 1 war chanting bard and 1 arcane. Rangers are not the only twf fighters, fighters and barbarians are also and they both can get 500+ hp unbuffed without gimping themselves, but regardless the dwarven ranger that was in our group the other day I want to heal next time we go in there as I would like a shot at keeping him up. :)

[stockwizard5]

We actually find 3 melees, 3 ranged, 3 clerics, and 3 buffing/healing arcanes very relaxing ...

[Angelus_dead]

You can have more then two tanks in there. Mass healing would probably be very expensive and may not be enough even if you turn on quicken, maximize, empower healing
For mana healing from a typical cleric, Heal gives 8.14 hp/sp and MCMW gives 1.8 hp/sp. The ratio between those numbers is 4.52, meaning that if you have 5 or more players attacking, they will recover hitpoints more efficiently from mass effects than single healing. (Remember that if you factor in Heal Crits, the Heal spell will usually waste most of the crit, while the MCMW will not). This result can be more obvious on normal mode, where if you've got 11 melees in the party, a single cleric can keep them going until the fight is won.

[maddmatt70]

For mana healing from a typical cleric, Heal gives 8.14 hp/sp and MCMW gives 1.8 hp/sp. The ratio between those numbers is 4.52, meaning that if you have 5 or more players attacking, they will recover hitpoints more efficiently from mass effects than single healing. (Remember that if you factor in Heal Crits, the Heal spell will usually waste most of the crit, while the MCMW will not). This result can be more obvious on normal mode, where if you've got 11 melees in the party, a single cleric can keep them going until the fight is won.

Agreed in general and on normal for sure, but I am referring to the quest on elite with increased damage and human error and the like. Healing isn't a perfect science and when you are interspersing heal scrolls, with the heal spell and other healing spells on occasion with the goal of not using too many resources things get complicated. You could work out some sort of mass healing rotation 2 clerics on 2 clerics off sort of thing, but that again could get too complicated regarding implementation. Keeping the melee alive is the key to part5 because a death is literally 3 deaths with the death penalties associated.

[Issip]

Part 5 may be a bit much, just because it gets to be a grind with little exciting action, I do prefer part 4 for the excitement and it being a more reasonable length of time on elite.

I must say, however that it is in my opinion a huge improvement over some of the raids (e.g. Titan, Abbot, Stormreaver). At least is an epic battle of sorts that requires players to work together and use their character's abilities. By way of contrast the three raids I mention above have bosses that are so pathetically weak compared to a group of 12 level appropriate toons that there is almost no fight at all. Instead of having an epic style boss encounter you have silly puzzles that have to be completed, and once that is done there is no fight because the boss is a total joke.

Those raids leave most people doing close to nothing if not nothing, are extremely boring for just about everyone involved, and depend almost nothing on your characters abilities. I am very grateful that they did not have another paper Abott with impossible lagged out puzzles and no real fight at all.

Part 4 of the shroud is probably the best raid boss encounter DDO has ever produced, and I would like to encourage the devs to work along those lines and abandon the Titan/Abbot style of raids.

As far as part 5 being too much, all I can say you won, on elite, the highest raid in the game, and therefore it is not too much, although I would prefer more danger of killing party members and less reliance on ridiculous high HP - all in all the boss encounters in the shroud are great!

[Angelus_dead]

Part 4 of the shroud is probably the best raid boss encounter DDO has ever produced, and I would like to encourage the devs to work along those lines and abandon the Titan/Abbot style of raids.
It's good in some ways and bad in others, and what may appear to be benefits now could actually be negatives in the long run.

DDO has finally for the first time got a raid boss where you want a large group to actually win the fight, and not just to get more pulls from the chest. From that narrow perspective, it is a good thing. But as time goes by and the level cap goes up a few times, the ability of level 16 characters to pull together a large group for a quest giving worst loot than you could find by running around Xoriat solo... it won't happen. Shroud raids work today because it's the game's highest level quest, so you can find a big volume of players interested in running it on any given day. In the future when it's no longer the highest quest, it will be time-prohibitive to assemble a Shroud raid without major scheduling ahead of time.

Here's a thought experiment:
Suppose Turbine edited The Shroud to be a 6 man quest. What would that require? They'd cut the hp of the portals and monsters by about 50%, and take off maybe 20-25% of the monster DPS. Maybe also reduce the running speed of a few dead looies. That's all it would take for it to be managable with 6 players.

What would the experience of playing Shroud6 be like compared to the existing Shroud12? It would be almost exactly the same, except nobody would get the sicko lag in phase1. And although you'd still have 2-3 players giving orders to everyone else, they'd represent about 30-50% of the party, instead of 15-25% like they do now. When the quest is done, you'd still get the same number of ingredients per person.

One shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking a quest which brings more players into it is automatically more fun than the alternatives.

[smatt]

Lol, those guys have better weapons than anything conceivably craftable.
You can't make something equivalent to a +2 Transmuting Greataxe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. There's just no way.


I scoff at you LOL, why???? Yes, that's a nice axe... You have 5 of them? I hope so.... Still waiting for this mythical Vid of the 20 min part 5 Shroud elite run? Oh wait it took you 30 minutes this itmes or was that 39.99 minutes which it seems by your groups math would be 30 minutes :) I've seen stills of a couple times, big deal.... Like I said, I'm not questiong the fact that your group is obviously gods gift to all MMO's and we should all fall to the ground in total amazement at your true Uber :rolleyes: But I hear a lot of talk...... I do not question some of the times quoted, but some I do... It's easy to assemble the exact group, and perform a specfic task, sure why not, after you've run it a bunch in certainways to figure it all out and hten plan it carefully. But take an imperfect group and then perform it, consistantly. Stop making claims of this and that, and make it sound as if it's the norm, when it MIGHT'VE legitmately happened one time, based on some good play and ALOT of luck. There are many parts to this story being untold, I'm guessing.........

Again, it's easy to cheat the system, get the jump on all the others on tactics etc, and then make claims..... But the least you can do is show a bit of proof of such claims ;)

Show us this mythical L33T :) Sure you may be a good group of players and a good group of folks. But your boorish bragging, your times, your math don't add up. If you're good you don't need to embelish your stories :) It turns a good story into.......

Please take this post for what it is...... A smart assed reply to a ridiculous statement ;)

[smatt]

Just did some DPS testing on normal last night in part 5 as a sanity check ...

Barbarian 1: 174.2
Ranger 1: 125.8
Ranger 2: 127.0
Multi TWF: 278.9

10 minutes is clearly sufficient for the actual fight.

Hmm, show us 10 minutes on elite, part 5 :)

[stockwizard5]

Hmm, show us 10 minutes on elite, part 5 :)

You have seen screen shots, you have been told by multiple people that this happens, I have shown the math that it is reasonable, I have no idea why you are still having so many issues.

Perhaps less time questioning everyone else on the boards and more time learning and practicing the quest for yourself?

I think it really comes down to understanding DPS - its not that a twinked custom Fiend build does 10% or 20% or even 50% more damage - its that they do 200% or 300% or even 400% more damage. A group of characters doing 2x or 3x more DPS than your group would take how long even using your methods? How about with even better methods? How about way better methods?

One other alternative might be to actually run with one of these groups - assuming you have the builds and the gear to hang?

[mgoldb2]

When people say 10 or 20min part 5 elite do they mean

A) kill all 4 named, let the casters get sp back and kill the pit fiend

or

B) starting from first attack on pit fiend how long it take to get his life from 100 to 0 percent.

In the case of A I wont say impossible but extremely difficult. In the case of B I have seen it done in less than 20min with my own eyes so I know that possible.

But maybe the confusion is comming from which of those 2 things people mean when they say how quick they done it.

[nakedfatguy]

You have seen screen shots, you have been told by multiple people that this happens, I have shown the math that it is reasonable, I have no idea why you are still having so many issues.

Perhaps less time questioning everyone else on the boards and more time learning and practicing the quest for yourself?

I think it really comes down to understanding DPS - its not that a twinked custom Fiend build does 10% or 20% or even 50% more damage - its that they do 200% or 300% or even 400% more damage. A group of characters doing 2x or 3x more DPS than your group would take how long even using your methods? How about with even better methods? How about way better methods?

One other alternative might be to actually run with one of these groups - assuming you have the builds and the gear to hang?


good post

[sirgog]

Lol, those guys have better weapons than anything conceivably craftable.
You can't make something equivalent to a +2 Transmuting Greataxe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane. There's just no way.

You most certainly can do better than that.

Against Evil Outsiders, your weapon is a +6 Transmuting Greataxe with +3d6 bonus damage. I'll assume you have Imp. Crit: Slashing.

Compare to:

Perfect Mineral Upgrade (maul)

+5 Impact Transmuting Maul of Holy Acid Bust Acid Blast Slicing

The Impact means you can respec Imp Crit to instead take Weapon Focus: Bludgeon, so it's equivalent (attack bonus wise) to +6. Holy Acid Burst Acid Blast and Slicing average about 16-17 damage.

So this weapon is slightly better in Arrietrikos DPS. Not to mention it's a million times better vs. foes that are not evil outsiders.

[Bronko]

That's perfectly true. What don't you understand?

Do you think that somehow the devs thought it was a good idea to put in an unbeatable quest? Of course not. That's a waste of their time, and a waste of their customers' time, and too much of that depletes the customer base.




Umm... Can you say Black Abbot? ;)

[smatt]

You have seen screen shots, you have been told by multiple people that this happens, I have shown the math that it is reasonable, I have no idea why you are still having so many issues.

Perhaps less time questioning everyone else on the boards and more time learning and practicing the quest for yourself?

I think it really comes down to understanding DPS - its not that a twinked custom Fiend build does 10&#37; or 20% or even 50% more damage - its that they do 200% or 300% or even 400% more damage. A group of characters doing 2x or 3x more DPS than your group would take how long even using your methods? How about with even better methods? How about way better methods?

One other alternative might be to actually run with one of these groups - assuming you have the builds and the gear to hang?


Hmmm, still don't buy the 10 minutes..... I personally don't now, nor have I ever claimed to be so uber as you and your group of special people. But I can do the math. And no, you're not doing 200%-300%-400% more DPS, . I have no problem understanding other methods/better methods/uber methods at all. In fact I like learning new and better ways to do things, that is without exploiting, or even using exploits to enable me to have the resources to test new ways. I also have no problem in admitting that there are better and much better players around then I am now or ever will be. I'm way beyond having to puff my chest out, let alone doing it in a game. I like to have fun and fun isn't going around acting like an idiot, belittleing/degrading other people because they might not be as good as me, as experienced as me, etc etc. I will get testy when people refuse to learn new methods, or new quests from more experianced players, but I don't act liek I'm a fricken god. I have also been amazed by many a great player when they've said "We can do this in this amount of time" and I said "No Way" and then they showed me, and blew me away with a tactic I'd never dreamed of, nor problably never would've :eek:

I see claims of 10 min elite part 5 runs, OK so let's see, 4 bosses.... 2 maybe 3 minutes, get mana back.... So that leaves 8 minutes at most to take down pit fiend (UNBUGGED) 8x10= 80 melee rounds X 5 attacks= 400 total attacks per toon (assuming they hit EVERY time). 400 X 250 (assuming you crit EVERYTIME) = 100,000 dam per toon, assuming you hit everytime, crit every time. Not going to happen unless you're running 8 or 9 totally tweaked Barbs... So is that what you're doing, or are you simply bugging him? Or are you inflating your numbers? OK, so it must be one of those, because 10 minutes just isn't going to happen.... Again, I hear claims of 10-20 minutes, then I read "Oh well it took us 30 on this run and we have a Vid"..... Haven't seen that yet, perhaps it's in the editing room ;)

Yes, I question things, I also make smart assed replys to smart assed statements...... But I think my math is correct... I call BS when I see it.... And I also admit it when I'm wrong and eat s**t :)

I can see 30 minutes NP, perhaps even 20 for the pit fiend alone.. But 10???? Hey I could be completely wrong here....... Mayvbe 1+1 does not equal 2 anymore...... :D

[eyepuppy]

You have seen screen shots, you have been told by multiple people that this happens, I have shown the math that it is reasonable, I have no idea why you are still having so many issues.

Perhaps less time questioning everyone else on the boards and more time learning and practicing the quest for yourself?

I think it really comes down to understanding DPS - its not that a twinked custom Fiend build does 10% or 20% or even 50% more damage - its that they do 200% or 300% or even 400% more damage. A group of characters doing 2x or 3x more DPS than your group would take how long even using your methods? How about with even better methods? How about way better methods?

One other alternative might be to actually run with one of these groups - assuming you have the builds and the gear to hang?

Erm, our whole thing is that all that screenshot proves is that the whole raid was beaten in 2 hours (If I remember right). That in no way proves that the pit fiend was fighting back the whole time. When you say you had 4 people in attacking at one time, I know you are lying. Unless they all have about an 80 AC, then they will be hit every time for about 125 damage. Maybe if they were all barbs built only for HP, but you only had 2 barbs. His cleaves will hit everyone (maybe whirlwind) around you.

The most damage I have taken from this guy is 200 HP. That's almost freaking half my HP in one blow. With his attack speed so fast, he can hit you just a few more times and kill you (even before a heal spell or scroll went off). That's even before you had a chance to back up. So saying you had 4 tanks in there with DPS the whole time, I call BS to that. There is no way. The reason I want proof is because I hear so much, I can do this I can do that blah blah blah. I can solo the abbot with my cleric. A screenshot says you beat it, but does NOT say that you didn't glitch the dang pit fiend. You said you just beat it in 30 minutes... So... erm... did you take more screenshots of when he wasn't bugged?

[smatt]

When people say 10 or 20min part 5 elite do they mean

A) kill all 4 named, let the casters get sp back and kill the pit fiend

or

B) starting from first attack on pit fiend how long it take to get his life from 100 to 0 percent.

In the case of A I wont say impossible but extremely difficult. In the case of B I have seen it done in less than 20min with my own eyes so I know that possible.

But maybe the confusion is comming from which of those 2 things people mean when they say how quick they done it.


Ahh, yes now I can see it possible to do just the PF in 20 minutes. With tweaked toons, and really nice weapons, not just nice but really nice. So in the end I can see sub-30 minute runs, perhaps even 25 minutes. BUT there's a big difference between sub 30 minutes and sub 20 minutes. There's a big difference between 20 minutes and 10 minutes :eek:

[Angelus_dead]

The Impact means you can respec Imp Crit to instead take Weapon Focus: Bludgeon, so it's equivalent (attack bonus wise) to +6. Holy Acid Burst Acid Blast and Slicing average about 16-17 damage.
Acid does zero damage.
Acid Blast does zero damage.
Dwarves don't get a bonus with Mauls.

The axe is equivalent to +8 1d12 with +3d6 bonus dice, and the maul is +5 1d12 2d6+1d4 bonus dice. Axe wins, and heavily.

If there was a way to craft Transmuting on a Green Steel weapon only using damage dice which hurt Pit Fiends (like Holy, Good, or Shock), then it might be better. But Holy Shock won't give you Mineral.

[maddmatt70]

Ahh, yes now I can see it possible to do just the PF in 20 minutes. With tweaked toons, and really nice weapons, not just nice but really nice. So in the end I can see sub-30 minute runs, perhaps even 25 minutes. BUT there's a big difference between sub 30 minutes and sub 20 minutes. There's a big difference between 20 minutes and 10 minutes :eek:

We just did it in under 20 minutes again (about 15 minutes). Total quest time 99 minutes. We had 3 barbarians, 2 fighters, 1 ranged fighter, 2 sorcerer, 1 bard, 3 clerics. Not that you are ever going to believe what I say, but oh well. Mass healing for a part of it and then focused healing for the rest.

[eyepuppy]

We just did it in under 20 minutes again (about 15 minutes). Total quest time 99 minutes. We had 3 barbarians, 2 fighters, 1 ranged fighter, 2 sorcerer, 1 bard, 3 clerics. Not that you are ever going to believe what I say, but oh well. Mass healing for a part of it and then focused healing for the rest.

Sigh... Is it too hard to give proof? I mean, really? Why would you not show proof? Are you trying to hide something? I say I can do a lot of things, but I also give proof that I can do them...

[brshelton]

Sigh... Is it too hard to give proof? I mean, really? Why would you not show proof? Are you trying to hide something? I say I can do a lot of things, but I also give proof that I can do them...

agreed ctrl+p isnt that tough

[smatt]

We just did it in under 20 minutes again (about 15 minutes). Total quest time 99 minutes. We had 3 barbarians, 2 fighters, 1 ranged fighter, 2 sorcerer, 1 bard, 3 clerics. Not that you are ever going to believe what I say, but oh well. Mass healing for a part of it and then focused healing for the rest.


Cool, if you read my last post I said sure I belive that it could be done in sub 30 min, and possibly 20 minutes for just hte fiend and not the whole of part 5. As for just over 15 minutes for all of part 5 elite, of course without the many questionable tactics being used by oh so many at this point :rolleyes: I find that a bit hard to believe Matt. But again, where are the screen shots of the alive and "moving" PF etc etc etc..... I mean you could all surely enlighten us all. I see the DPS #'s there assuming they all had the choice weapons you speak of. But I see your group speaking of vids etc etc yet we never see them? I know I can be somewhat confrontational and unfortunately this is a BBS so you don't get the joking manner at which I speak really. But you knwo I find video game players about as honest as that fisherman who caught that fish that was THIS BIG...... All we've seen is a compeltion picture of a 150 min, nothing showing a moving living PF..... Until I see the picture ;)

[Angelus_dead]

Sigh... Is it too hard to give proof? I mean, really? Why would you not show proof?
Screenshots don't count as proof. For one thing, they don't have internal timestamps so you know how long it took from beginning to end of the fight.

The other reason screenshots aren't proof isn't allowed in this forum.

[dragonofsteel2]

For mana healing from a typical cleric, Heal gives 8.14 hp/sp and MCMW gives 1.8 hp/sp. The ratio between those numbers is 4.52, meaning that if you have 5 or more players attacking, they will recover hitpoints more efficiently from mass effects than single healing. (Remember that if you factor in Heal Crits, the Heal spell will usually waste most of the crit, while the MCMW will not). This result can be more obvious on normal mode, where if you've got 11 melees in the party, a single cleric can keep them going until the fight is won.

See the problem here is assuming everyone needs heals at the sametime all the time and when crit on one with mass did not on the other so still need another mass which is wasted by one and not the other. Mass heals would be the best if counting on every one to go down at the same pace and need heals at sametime all the time. So your more players attacking is counting on perfect damage going out each player. On part 5 does alot damge to lot people real fast, but is not the same on each one. So what happens if just fire off mass heals the people bars become inbalance either some die or u waste spell points fire off more mass heals to keep everyone up. Looking at the simple math does not always give the answer needed. Its easier on spell points without mass heals. Mass heals need to be use only little bit in there. Heal crits on mass heals will not go to the one that needs it all the time relying on random luck there. See if talking aobut everyone taking the same amount of damage all the time then yes do your math mass-heals or better, but with the different damaging going around lot time mass heals healing some that do not need and others not enough.

[stockwizard5]

8x10= 80 melee rounds X 5 attacks= 400 total attacks per toon (assuming they hit EVERY time). 400 X 250 (assuming you crit EVERYTIME) = 100,000 dam per toon, assuming you hit everytime, crit every time.

This is not DDO mechanics - there has been some excellent work on attacks/minute for different types of combat at different BABs. You should spend some time looking through them to understand the math and the relation to DPS. If you would like to post or PM your build and gear - I would be happy to estimate your Fiend DPS for you so we can compare.


agreed ctrl+p isnt that tough

Screenshots don't count as proof.

Apparently it is ...


I know you are lying.

You should be very very careful here ... anymore of this and those of us that have a penchant for helping will ignore you.

Note 1: Our guild is well know for being vehemently anti-exploit.
Note 2: Ranged DPS is very effective, counts as attacking, and requires little if any healing.
Note 3: We typically have few (if any) deaths and melee quite effectively.
Note 4: We generally do not use mass heals.

I would also be interested in how long the "questioners" took last night and their tactics? I didn't notice but Vx told me afterwards when I thought to ask that he had 7 minutes of buffs left on our last run and as I cast the 30 minute version we can assume something less than 23 minutes with 2 PUGs, a DC, and a 1st timer that (not unexpectedly) had some "issues".

[SimonB]

Cool, if you read my last post I said sure I belive that it could be done in sub 30 min, and possibly 20 minutes for just hte fiend and not the whole of part 5. As for just over 15 minutes for all of part 5 elite, of course without the many questionable tactics being used by oh so many at this point :rolleyes: I find that a bit hard to believe Matt. But again, where are the screen shots of the alive and "moving" PF etc etc etc..... I mean you could all surely enlighten us all. I see the DPS #'s there assuming they all had the choice weapons you speak of. But I see your group speaking of vids etc etc yet we never see them? I know I can be somewhat confrontational and unfortunately this is a BBS so you don't get the joking manner at which I speak really. But you knwo I find video game players about as honest as that fisherman who caught that fish that was THIS BIG...... All we've seen is a compeltion picture of a 150 min, nothing showing a moving living PF..... Until I see the picture ;)

Smatt what server are you on? I would just like to echo the sentiments of my guildie Stoc. I have run many times with Ellistran, Axer, Norg and the others (apologies for not mentioning everyone) and their alts. They are extremely good players and make quests which people through their arms up in the air and say are too hard look easy. I have never once been disappointed being in a group with them, and I have never experienced them not being true to their word. I personally haven't run the Shroud yet with any of my toons despite them being ready but I have no problems believing what they are saying because I know they are stand-up guys.

[eyepuppy]

mad, I don't doubt that you can beat it in 25 minutes. I think that is a reasonable time. It was just most of the group's first time in there, and on elite :P That was actually my tank's first time on elite. My caster has been in there on part 5 on normal a few times and hard a few times. I was only saying that you can't do it in 10 minutes, like someone said earlier. There is a big difference between 10-20 minutes and 20-30 minutes (as smatt said). The first 4 parts only take 60 minutes as long as nothing goes wrong and no one goes afk. That being said, 100 minutes is a reasonable time to do the raid. Like I said before, we had people go afk for breaks between parts and we waited for everyone. Once we got rolling on part 5, he went down fairly fast with only one tank on the fiend at a time.

I have a +5 transmuting greataxe of pure good. When I was using a DPS calculator, it said I had crit DPS of 62. With a 32 strength, power attack, and all the weapon focus/specs, I crit for 170, so why the heck does it say I only hit for 62 on a crit? Does someone have a good DPS calculator they use?

[maddmatt70]

mad, I don't doubt that you can beat it in 25 minutes. I think that is a reasonable time. It was just most of the group's first time in there, and on elite :P That was actually my tank's first time on elite. My caster has been in there on part 5 on normal a few times and hard a few times. I was only saying that you can't do it in 10 minutes, like someone said earlier. There is a big difference between 10-20 minutes and 20-30 minutes (as smatt said). The first 4 parts only take 60 minutes as long as nothing goes wrong and no one goes afk. That being said, 100 minutes is a reasonable time to do the raid. Like I said before, we had people go afk for breaks between parts and we waited for everyone. Once we got rolling on part 5, he went down fairly fast with only one tank on the fiend at a time.

I have a +5 transmuting greataxe of pure good. When I was using a DPS calculator, it said I had crit DPS of 62. With a 32 strength, power attack, and all the weapon focus/specs, I crit for 170, so why the heck does it say I only hit for 62 on a crit? Does someone have a good DPS calculator they use?

The point is we don't have one tank on him we had 5 for at least the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the fight and for the second half we had 3. Three tanks didn't die so that was sustained dps on him the whole time. We surround him. On a side note: I was running my archer this time on the quest and since he wasn't moving around my dps was going up as well because apparently when he moves around ranged combat can miss sometimes.

[stockwizard5]

I have a +5 transmuting greataxe of pure good. When I was using a DPS calculator, it said I had crit DPS of 62. With a 32 strength, power attack, and all the weapon focus/specs, I crit for 170, so why the heck does it say I only hit for 62 on a crit? Does someone have a good DPS calculator they use?

Assuming your numbers - your in-game animation DPS (fully buffed) is ~ 125.7.

A better weapon would increase your DPS by as much as 30%.

Tweeked builds/gear can reach from 2x to 2.3x that output.


he went down fairly fast with only one tank on the fiend at a time

A strategy that utilizes more than one tank (say our approach using three; each reaching 2x your DPS) might turn "fairly fast" into "really fast" - yes?

[zyp]

I feel a little obligated to pipe in and back up some of what Shade is saying. That guy and the folks he routinely quests with form a very tight group with every single member coming into the quest exceptionally well-equipped and well-specced. They run the quest often and they run it smarter every time, constantly trying new approaches and improving their game plan. It's always a treat getting into a party with them because they are by far some of the best players on the server. I think the guy comes off a little arrogant on the forum sometimes but he really is one of those players that's in the game to go for the most challenge it can give him. Having run with his group every now and then and having seen some of the tactical approaches, I have no difficulty believing the times indicated. I'm not sure I really want to see the end fight made any harder but I'm also not the least bit surprised Shade wants more challenge.