Gygax a hack?.... Please!

[Brutalirony]

Found this article that made me a little more than upset ....... I know that people have the right to free speech but come on! The guy passed away (RIP) and the way you say that type of **** about a game that you might not have a clue about! ...... Dunno check it out for yourself!

http://www.slate.com/id/2186203/nav/ais/

[Aspenor]

This article convinced me to join that site, simply just to tell the OP what a noob he is.

[Grond]

It reads like the author is a Steve Jackson psychophant. *shrug*

You see this in every area, people take shots at the percieved bigshot. Look at the Apple commercials portraying the IBM as a hopeless geek... Iliad's comic trumpeting Linux over Windows... it happens all over the place. No surprise we see it in the gaming community too.

[Ciaran]

What a reprehensible article by a bitter talking head.

Never get famous my friends; for when you die horrible things will be said about you in an attempt to overshadow whatever fame you enjoyed for whatever reason.

[Dimicron]

Why do orcs and other monsters horde gold when they can't buy anything from the local "shoppes," or share a jug of mead in the tavern, or do anything but gnash their teeth in the darkness and wait for someone to show up and fight them?

This part did make me laugh, but aside from that... This 'article' did not need to be written.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I always wondered when the killing everything outweighed the interaction...
Coulda sworn I got as much EXP from an encounter, buy surviving it...in an unusual way then by just killing everything in sight.
But...I think my DM cheated.
Talking the dragon out of eating us.
Convincing the evil guy that we had not yet completed getting him the horribly powered item he craved...and finding a way to escape and destroy it.
Skirting camps of monsters.
Getting out of the bar fight rather than killing everyone there...and everyone in the town...and everyone in the surrounding towns...

But I remember a lot of killing too.

[Ciaran]

I always wondered when the killing everything outweighed the interaction...
Coulda sworn I got as much EXP from an encounter, buy surviving it...in an unusual way then by just killing everything in sight.
But...I think my DM cheated.
Talking the dragon out of eating us.
Convincing the evil guy that we had not yet completed getting him the horribly powered item he craved...and finding a way to escape and destroy it.
Skirting camps of monsters.
Getting out of the bar fight rather than killing everyone there...and everyone in the town...and everyone in the surrounding towns...

But I remember a lot of killing too.

Yep, it sounds like this @$$hat focused on an incomplete and uneducated perception, made it his pet theory and ran with it, kicking the corpse the entire way.

Good roleplay and finding ways OTHER than fighting has been encouraged for as long as I've been aware of D&D...

[dragnmoon]

Though I agree the article is in Poor taste... He is right about D&D... It is a Crappy RPG and there are Much better RPGs out there.. Real Role playing games.. A game where the Systems are based on the story.. not what you are fighting... Like White Wolfs Storyteller system *Which they are making a MMO after*.

The only reason I play D&D PnP is because that is the only game i can find players for in the military..

I will say this... Gygax'z system may have sucked... but his Modules where awesome!...*For a D&D Module*

[Lowfreq]

So Erick Sofge has to wait until an Icon is deceased to trash talk? What a pathetic coward.

But in the end, Erik's words don't really matter. We, the D&D community, will ensure that Mr. Gygax will be remembered for his fine efforts.

[Grond]

It's not the system that determines how a game runs, it's the group and the game master. If it's all hack and slash and kill thing,s it's because that's how the game is being run. Anyone that's played in multiple systems understands that. Personally, I wasn't a big fan of Steve Jackson games myself, but I don't bash the guy or anyone who is a fan of it. This guy has to throw rocks at Gygax because he doesn't like the way D&D was set up... Imagine that, someone on the Internet bashing the people who made something differently from the way they would have made it themselves, instead of accepting that some people like it that way... sound familiar? :rolleyes:

[Ciaran]

Though I agree the article is in Poor taste... He is right about D&D... It is a Crappy RPG and there are Much better RPGs out there.. Real Role playing games.. A game where the Systems are based on the story.. not what you are fighting... Like White Wolfs Storyteller system *Which they are making a MMO after*.

The only reason I play D&D PnP is because that is the only game i can find players for in the military..

I will say this... Gygax'z system may have sucked... but his Modules where awesome!...*For a D&D Module*

Matter of opinion though, not cold hard fact. It's subjective.

I've always found D&D to be versatile in that regard. You can do a "kick in the door" type adventure or you can do a more story-driven adventure. It offers a lot to different people.

There's always going to be things that people prefer over others, but preference doesn't equate truth.

[Yaga_Nub]

Though I agree the article is in Poor taste... He is right about D&D... It is a Crappy RPG and there are Much better RPGs out there.. Real Role playing games.. A game where the Systems are based on the story.. not what you are fighting... Like White Wolfs Storyteller system *Which they are making a MMO after*.

The only reason I play D&D PnP is because that is the only game i can find players for in the military..

I will say this... Gygax'z system may have sucked... but his Modules where awesome!...*For a D&D Module*

I like DnD's system and always have. Mr. Gygax ALWAYS said it was more about RP/story and that the rule books were just guides. It's the unimaginative DMs and players that started to follow the rules to the absolute Nth degree and forgot about RP and going with what worked for the story/game.

Also, there have always been more ways to gain xp from an encounter besides killing things.

[Yeric]

The article is nothing but in poor taste. Didn't need to be written. A shame it had to show up in slate as an earlier article spoke to the accomplishments of our First Dungeon Master.

[Grond]

Though I agree the article is in Poor taste... He is right about D&D... It is a Crappy RPG and there are Much better RPGs out there.. Real Role playing games.. A game where the Systems are based on the story.. not what you are fighting... Like White Wolfs Storyteller system *Which they are making a MMO after*.

The only reason I play D&D PnP is because that is the only game i can find players for in the military..

I will say this... Gygax'z system may have sucked... but his Modules where awesome!...*For a D&D Module*

That being said, I've been in some truely horrendous White Wolf campaigns, and found the 5 dot system in the original White Wolf somewhat restrictive. The system I liked best for character customization was Rolemaster, which was a nightmare if you had an inexperienced GM. *shrug*

It's all about taste, and not everyone has the same tastes.

[Dracolich]

Who cares. You guys making a big deal out of this guy only spurs people like that on.

How many of us made fun of his voice in Deleras quest? Probably alot more then would like to admit. What is the difference in making fun of somone when they are alive and unable to defend trhemselves and making fun of them when they are dead and not being able to defend themselves.

Note:I am just playing devils advocate since a one sided conversation is boring :).

[Yaga_Nub]

Who cares. You guys making a big deal out of this guy only spurs people like that on.

How many of us made fun of his voice in Deleras quest? Probably alot more then would like to admit. What is the difference in making fun of somone when they are alive and unable to defend trhemselves and making fun of them when they are dead and not being able to defend themselves.

Note:I am just playing devils advocate since a one sided conversation is boring :).

But there's a difference, at least in my eyes. HE DID HAVE A FUNNY VOICE!!! :)

But that article was basically saying that he was a hack and that his system sucked. While it's true that many people don't like DnD's system, it's still the biggest RPG and one of the oldest. 30 years of existence should show the staying power (and marketing power of an early entrant into a field) of DnD. If it was as bad as the author is trying to make it out to be it would have died out years ago.

[Heladron]

One thing the writer failed to mention was the details.

The reason those orcs were sleeping is because they ate a whole party of righteous adventurers and stole all their loot. He didn't mention the floor was covered with the bones and blood of the fallen party. The writer did not mention that the orcs kidnapped the damsel to make half-orcs. That's why the next party of adventurers is there to slay the orcs.

Free criticals on the sleeping orcs. Whoo hoo!

D&D has violence in it for the same reason movies do; entertainment. We don't want to watch Bruce Willis cleverly thwart Hans Gruber. We want him to blow Hans up and shoot 1000s of bullets at Hans' henchmen. D&D gives you XP for the clever stuff if the DM is worth his salt, but we play the game to thwart evil with pure force. We don't let evil survive or it will overpower us and destroy our fair fantasy world.

Sure the author is entitled to his opinion, but I think he really missed the point of why we play these games, and why Gary wasn't just a hack.

[ChaelaAnne]

This article convinced me to join that site, simply just to tell the OP what a noob he is.

Are you the one that posted with a title of "You're a noob" then?


As far as the article. Does this guy not realize that if it weren't for GG his precious "second generation" RPG's wouldn't be around?

[arminius]

Wow. The guy thinks that destroying evil is unfair, and feels sorry for orcs and hobgoblins, and thinks that any game in which one fights evil is morally reprehensible. After all, it is just another lifestyle choice! Who are we to judge?

What a pacifist loser tool. Question: Does/Did he live in:

A. Berkeley, CA
B. Ann Arbor, MI
C. Chapel Hill, NC
D. Burlington, VT
E. Moscow

It's a little hard to believe that he is a writer for Popular Mechanics, which is normally blessed with a very low idiot/writer ratio.

And what is with that pacifist "yearning for an end to glory" slant on Tolkien? Has he even read the books? Perhaps he slept through this quote.....


It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden, and those who have not swords can still die upon them. Would you have the folk of Gondor gather you herbs only, when the Dark Lord gathers armies? And it is not always good to be healed in body. Nor is it always evil to die in battle, even in bitter pain. Were I permitted, in this dark hour I would choose the latter.



_

[Aspenor]

Are you the one that posted with a title of "You're a noob" then?

:D:D:):D:D:eek:

[Mad_Bombardier]

So Erick Sofge has to wait until an Icon is deceased to trash talk? What a pathetic coward.

But in the end, Erik's words don't really matter. We, the D&D community, will ensure that Mr. Gygax will be remembered for his fine efforts.Hear, hear. My favorite 'cart before the horse' line, "[D&D] plays like a video game." Which then goes on about XP and levels. The only type of video game around when D&D released in 1974 was Pong! The writer is such a moron he can't comprehend that video games are based on D&D. :rolleyes: :D

[Shaamis]

I read the article, played GURPS when it came out, and it tried to do what D&D managed to get right ont eh first try:

balance between playability, complex rules, detailed enough for suspension of belief, yet not too detailed to make you want to stab yourself in the eye.

later, when hundreds of other game systems came out, there were better ones, mind you, but everyone knew D&D. EVERYONE.

You could walk into a campus dorm and yell out "I'm a DM, and I want to start a D&D campaign!" and people will come from nowhere with books, dice, paper, pens, and (some) characters already made out, or ready to roll stats.

With any other game, there would be a period of explaining the rules, photocopying of the rules for people to read, character sheets to write, rule details to go over, and hopefully, by the end of the night, you'd be able to play the next time you all could get back together again, usually a week later.

D&D is the universal language of all gamers. THAT's why Gary is the Icon he is. He was the first. Not the best, but the FIRST.

[query]

[Note: This was a literal reposting save some edited or self edited words. fan*** has been a hot button here so I also self edited the "f word" just to be safe no infraction-interpretation was made even though in NO way am I insulting ANYBODY as a so-and-so on this forum, just counter striking the kicker of the downed gamer creator and its community on another site entirely. If somehow I missed something in the realm of inappropriateness, let me know privately and it's gone or this entire post is poofed. I leave this to show my true integrity on this for the sake of the forum rules and community.]

Dear Id10T:
by joshuacr
03/11/2008, 11:55 AM #
Rate this topic Delete Favorites Reply
There once was an episode of the new twilight zone (in the late 80's/90's with music done by the Grateful Dead) about a food critic that so phoned it in, he dumped on a restaraunt before he even went there, then went there to give it a bad experience.


Of course the catch is the magic fortune cookie that made things come true.


But his article was sent to post before he even walked in, dumping in writing what he liked but pre judged and convicted in print, Offering a "retraction" was not enough for the gift he got..So the restaraunt punished his true enjoyment of the place by by having the bad fortune of all gaines lost including his life and his hell was eternal hunger and being forced to forever eat an an infinate row of places never feeling an iota of fullfillment.



Kind of like you.


You decided to post the article the moment Gary died.


You didn't base it on research or opinion collected-beyond your clique of course of whatever you established as "objective."



You decided to write the crappy review in yoiur mind, then I bet you would have no problem just waiting for the day Gary died.



Oh, I'm sorry, is attacking the living not yiour forte' since we bite back?


Yeah I make typos and mistakes in grammar, but I don't expect people to tally all my wrongdoing just waiting for me to kick this coil.



No, Gary was as much a saint as Nixon was sane. He was rude, stubborn, his way or the highway, and many a leaving player of his campaigns had to lose the character in Gary's world unless that matched a d1000 roll (and I met the one person who did, so they may have been lying about that and correct about all other things, but I doubt it.)


Yeah, in a way, he was like those "mouth breathers'" idol Gene Rodedenberry. "Who decides what is Star Trek? [yelled, implying only] I DO!" Gene like Gary was a visionary but yeah, he could be a pain the the behind too.



But we didn't cr** on him when he died, and sci-fi good and bad on TV and movies was done before. Then again- assuming you are allowed to publish for a serious periodical after this insult to things called articles when they should be called op-ed skewed to no reasoned debate-you'll probally insult Lucas for Star Wars being too juvanile and the mouth breathers it created; smash the universe for that flop of Howard the Duck...and completely ignore the Grafitti Americannes' 1 and 2 and that little nobody it had as a supporting supporter...Harrison something....



Gary Gygax created something NOBODY else did.

He also created a system that also gives XP for ROLE PLAYING, PROBLEM SOLVING, BEING CLEVER, and yes, killing too. If I acted witty I was rewarded. If I was a fool, I lost as much as I gained, perhaps my character's life with no chance of returnig. Sometimes the souls were forever lost back then if you knew the risk of system shocks.

And I can like Steve Jackson ALSO. Your Freud drinks ur*** to suport Jung anti Gary pro Steve, rings of a f***** more than a journalist. My apologies to f*****s for that remark.


Gary's game was the FIRST of its kind to literally print that the game master has the right to change the rules as they see fit to make the game work.



But no, we're all just murderers and sociopaths unable to communicate so we do D&D to prepare for our cult real life demonic worship.....and if you believe that nearly 30 year old bull, it seems likely where you get your facts from.



The now non existant Weekly World News where Batboy joined the US forces in Iraq because the alien has been making secret deals with three generations of presidents...



At least that rag was admitting to be full of it.



You hide behind "journalistic integrity" to do nothing more than a blatant character assination. I mean a real person not the PC you think we D&D'ers have no idea is fictional.


But those who cannot create new ideas ofthen try to find fault in the processes that are so they look like they are contributing an "improvement."



Well, even IF I was smarter than most people, that does not make me better than they; just different in that way.


Gamers in their theatrics of role playing and character development that spans several generations laugh at you.


Because to borrow another game that copied our lost bard, you are the Troll in the Tunnel.



(-So says the hacknslash powergamer that can't do more than Krunk kill yet somehow on Dungeons and Dragons Online which I do as WELL as role play at tables of real people [which also pays respect to Gary Gygax when they don't have to do a **** thing] we make ROLE PLAYING characters so high a standard, we even have player annual awards for our backstories in appreciation. Thank you Thelanis server [The Fellowship of the Golden Night] and Merlask/Tolero for starting that. Oh and on that gamew world, we don't get XP for simply killing. We slaughter 1000 orcs, but don't do what our quest giver asks, we get zip including 0 xp and FAIL. Killing or sneaking or searching is all optional and bonus-related, not mandatory. And we all get treasure from the chests like D&D always intended, WOW, what a difference!)

Oh,and the second word above in my subject, means the article's problem was between your keybord and chair...



[Edited in reply from other post quote]

Hear, hear. My favorite 'cart before the horse' line, "[D&D] plays like a video game." Which then goes on about XP and levels. The only type of video game around when D&D released in 1974 was Pong! The writer is such a moron he can't comprehend that video games are based on D&D. :rolleyes: :D

Yeah I miss pong too sometimes...it was also one of the firsts...or technically second behind space wars.
And yes, Gary had an ANNOYING voice to the point of hillarity, but we teased the guy out of love or at least respect what he made. Gene was more looking like an "after" Kirk picture most of his years minus the fake hair but we Trek Fans still love and will always love Star Trek, period.

Same goes to you great bard of the D&D galaxy.....

[Grond]

I read the article, played GURPS when it came out, and it tried to do what D&D managed to get right ont eh first try:

balance between playability, complex rules, detailed enough for suspension of belief, yet not too detailed to make you want to stab yourself in the eye.

later, when hundreds of other game systems came out, there were better ones, mind you, but everyone knew D&D. EVERYONE.

You could walk into a campus dorm and yell out "I'm a DM, and I want to start a D&D campaign!" and people will come from nowhere with books, dice, paper, pens, and (some) characters already made out, or ready to roll stats.

With any other game, there would be a period of explaining the rules, photocopying of the rules for people to read, character sheets to write, rule details to go over, and hopefully, by the end of the night, you'd be able to play the next time you all could get back together again, usually a week later.

D&D is the universal language of all gamers. THAT's why Gary is the Icon he is. He was the first. Not the best, but the FIRST.

Very well put, mtmouse3.

And, for the person talking about making fun of his voice in Delera's, no one is saying that you can't make humor about his games. Heck, I love Order of the Stick and Knights of the Dinner Table, they're hillarious. And yes, they poke fun at some of the things about D&D, and more importantly, the people that play it. But the article that this guy wrote wasn't humorous, it was nasty.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Whatever.
You know, some of us lived through those times, andknow a little about it.

D&D wa first....or at least first to make it big.
Table top gaming was around....and it is where D&D has its roots.
Tabletop gaming is killing.

ALL games I have ever seen has XP or some method if getting better as you progress.
ALL games I have ever seen involve killing something as their goal. (ok, not all games, but you get the idea)

Yes, many creative artists built their own versions of role playing games........many of which people have said for years were better.
And all the WOW players will laugh at DDO too......

But like I said D&D was first......they all owe their existance to D&D, and the author (for lack of a better word) even admitted that D&D was more popular.

All great men have been the target for criticism. If anything it proves that maybe Gary really was a great man, or else he would not have someone trying so hard to knock him off his throne.

This is like complaining that the Wright brothers don't deserve any credit for inventing the airplane.
you coud use all the same arguments (and people have).

Other people were working on better designs at the same time.......some even claim to have flown first.
Their airplane barely flew at all. So many better designs came later.

Yeah, yeah.........go cry in a corner somewhere.

[query]

... But the article that this guy wrote wasn't humorous, it was nasty.

Oh it was so vile, my Deepwoods sniper assassin Erifer would have killed him, gratis. And he is moraless, souless, and nearly pure evil (as much as the DDO alignment system allows :p)

[Brutalirony]

lol I like the last sentence of the article


Quote"In the end, his games are a lot like his legacy: goofy, malformed, and fodder for a self-deprecating joke or two—before being shoved in the closet for good" End Quote

What a nob!

[Aspenor]

What amuses me is that this guy is a writer for Popular Mechanics (read GEARHEAD) that's criticizing a RPG creator.

Forgive Gary for thinking outside the box and not following your "nuts and bolts" point of view on life.

This guy should have his journalism degree shredded.

[Dane_McArdy]

The truth is simple.

We would not be having this dicussion right now, if it DnD was so horrible. It would have died. Nor would WoTC had bought it. They could have said, wow, we can design something better.

And Gary and friends made DnD. It's simple enough to figure out.

Let the guy have his hate. Cause that is all he will have.

[Snoggy]

there are Much better RPGs out there..

True. But GURPS wasn't one of them.

That's about when I realized the article was fluff. When it touted how great GURPS was. Heh. Whatever.

[dungeonrat07]

The article only touch on a low end of D&D! There is creativity as well as role playing and this depends on the group! I think some of DDO is like this NOT ALL OF IT! Any body can come up slaughter feast and killer dungeons but their are some that push their game more than that! Some have already pointed at that in this string!

J.R.R TOLKIEN'S books are not about violence? Sauron was just misunderstood and needed a hug? The Nazgul were just wanting play cards or were just joking! Homer's the Iliad and the Odyssey are not about violence! Also Steve Jackson games are not about violence! What about car wars!

[query]

/SIGNED BROTHER!


Whatever.
You know, some of us lived through those times, andknow a little about it.

D&D wa first....or at least first to make it big.
Table top gaming was around....and it is where D&D has its roots.
Tabletop gaming is killing.

ALL games I have ever seen has XP or some method if getting better as you progress.
ALL games I have ever seen involve killing something as their goal. (ok, not all games, but you get the idea)

Yes, many creative artists built their own versions of role playing games........many of which people have said for years were better.
And all the WOW players will laugh at DDO too......

But like I said D&D was first......they all owe their existance to D&D, and the author (for lack of a better word) even admitted that D&D was more popular.

All great men have been the target for criticism. If anything it proves that maybe Gary really was a great man, or else he would not have someone trying so hard to knock him off his throne.

This is like complaining that the Wright brothers don't deserve any credit for inventing the airplane.
you coud use all the same arguments (and people have).

Other people were working on better designs at the same time.......some even claim to have flown first.
Their airplane barely flew at all. So many better designs came later.

Yeah, yeah.........go cry in a corner somewhere.

[MrWizard]

that guy will never write for my sites, ever. What a dork

write a letter to popular mechanics...let the butt head realize attacking a dead person who is much revered is not worth his job...

make him take it down.

[query]

That sentence alone makes me want to read your material!
Oh and I bet it's good too :D


that guy will never write for my sites, ever. What a dork

[Dane_McArdy]

True. But GURPS wasn't one of them.

That's about when I realized the article was fluff. When it touted how great GURPS was. Heh. Whatever.

Sure. One was called DragonQuest, and had a really interesting system.

All weapons, skills and spells could be raised in ranks. Spells went from rank 0 to 20. Skills from 0-10 and weapons from 0-possibly 10, depending on weapons. For example, the highest rank you could get with a dagger was 7.

Your ability to hit and cast spells was based on your rank, and natural abilities. Same for skills, which were like classes in some aspect.

Stats were Strength, Endurance, Willpower, Agility and Manual Dexterity. You were as intelligent as you could be, and there was an option for Physical Beauty.

The magic system was broken into first schools, Thaumic (enchantments), Elemental, Summoning. Then branches.

So elemental had fire, water, earth, air and celestial. Summoning had True Namers, Conjuring Devils. Thaumic had enchantements, black magic, sorcery.

Just about everything you needed was in a very skeletal frame work of rules, in about 200 some pages. Nothing more, nothing less was needed.

TSR bought them out when SPI went under, and never released it again.

He he he.

[query]

Alas, it was the water running car that the Fords of TSR bought out and silenced....


Sure. One was called DragonQuest, and had a really interesting system.

All weapons, skills and spells could be raised in ranks. Spells went from rank 0 to 20. Skills from 0-10 and weapons from 0-possibly 10, depending on weapons. For example, the highest rank you could get with a dagger was 7.

Your ability to hit and cast spells was based on your rank, and natural abilities. Same for skills, which were like classes in some aspect.

Stats were Strength, Endurance, Willpower, Agility and Manual Dexterity. You were as intelligent as you could be, and there was an option for Physical Beauty.

The magic system was broken into first schools, Thaumic (enchantments), Elemental, Summoning. Then branches.

So elemental had fire, water, earth, air and celestial. Summoning had True Namers, Conjuring Devils. Thaumic had enchantements, black magic, sorcery.

Just about everything you needed was in a very skeletal frame work of rules, in about 200 some pages. Nothing more, nothing less was needed.

TSR bought them out when SPI went under, and never released it again.

He he he.

[MysticTheurge]

Wow, what an uninformed load of bull****.

[Dane_McArdy]

Alas, it was the water running car that the Fords of TSR bought out and silenced....

Yeah. The system was so simple and well balanced. You could make just about any type of character.

Magic had general knowledge spell, and special for those that wanted to go deeper in the lore of that magic. Rituals for making longer lasting magic effects. Summoning powerful demons.

over all, very good game, balance and all.

TSR did try putting out some modules for it. But lets face it, it was in direct opposition of DnD.

[MrWizard]

well, in regards to the SPI dragon quest...it was the reason we started gaming.

The intro to the books was well written and I had bought them in the store in the 70s.
The gang went out to get their own, but all they could find was this blue dungeons and dragons book...ta da..game over, we all did dnd from then on. (and boot hill, traveller, DQ, and a ton of other stuff)

DnD, unlike the newer 3.5 and all other RPGs, to me, had its best role as a brief guideline of rules...with not a lot of technicalities to muck it up.

The history ofhow they slowly went from wargames to Dnd is awesome.

Anyone wanting to write a story/rebuttal essay against that Terd, just PM me and I will post it on my news site. And to heck with popular mechanics from now on...boycott

[query]

Well, I hope Gary is runnig it on whatever plane he is on. He'd find a way to make both work......


Yeah. The system was so simple and well balanced. You could make just about any type of character.

Magic had general knowledge spell, and special for those that wanted to go deeper in the lore of that magic. Rituals for making longer lasting magic effects. Summoning powerful demons.

over all, very good game, balance and all.

TSR did try putting out some modules for it. But lets face it, it was in direct opposition of DnD.

[Dane_McArdy]

Anyone wanting to write a story/rebuttal essay against that Terd, just PM me and I will post it on my news site. And to heck with popular mechanics from now on...boycott

And give him more attention?

[Kerr]

The man is mouth breathing scum, and I only hope the worst for him.

[Dracolich]

I so love the term "Mouth Breather" especially since I have been unable to breath through my nose since I was about 6. When did breathing through your mouth become equal to a numbskull? Maybe we should start calling dumb people dumb, its also shorter then mouth breather too. DOWN TO ALL YOU NOSE BREATHERS!!!! haha


:)

[query]

but his lips are still moving trying to read my last response!

And in reference to my Muck reply in the Muck thread, he is a MAJOR starts with sch....


I so love the term "Mouth Breather" especially since I have been unable to breath through my nose since I was about 6. When did breathing through your mouth become equal to a numbskull? Maybe we should start calling dumb people dumb, its also shorter then mouth breather too. DOWN TO ALL YOU NOSE BREATHERS!!!! haha


:)

[Berryman]

What a tool. Tolero you better close this thread before someone gets stabbed in the face.

[Kalari]

Couldnt get passed the first paragraph sorry choking on bs isnt my idea of fun reading. And not all D&D players sit in widowless basements, im sorry I may love the game but if im not comfy im not a happy caster. And the celibacy thing makes me laugh to, Im still laughing as I look at my 3 yr old. Yeah I was really celibate there...*rolls eyes* Besides really wasnt worth giving the person writting the article the pleasure of giving me a headache and heartburn reading him trash someone who just passed.

And I fully agree with the posters who understand that D&D is what we make of the game. All the campaigns ive run or been apart of encourage character interactions and roleplay. Heck some were enforced and we were warned at the beginning that the dm was looking for a certain atmosphere. Killing stuff is fun, thats why I have DDO. But when im in the mood to fully immerse myself into a character and the landscape thats when PNP comes up. And people can knock it all they want call me nerdy but im the nerd who can afford to play a fun relaxing game, while your struggling to get you bills paid.

Thats what I say to most of the nerd bashers in my family, specially those who need to borrow some money *rolls eyes*

[query]

The ONLY man who can make Leroy Jenkins look smart that's who!


I wasn't sure who the guy was until i wikipedia him this is what I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erick_Sofge

[Necro_Jill]

...

[Westerner]

Thanks for the link.

Erik comes as having some insecurity issues related to gaming. I infer that he harbors resentment against Gygax for hooking him into this "unwashed nerd" pastime and somehow holds him responsible for his "vow of celibacy" and "marathon RPG sessions in windowless basements." Erik's the real nerd, because he denigrates himself for having liked D&D. He's also a troll.

[Berryman]

Thanks for the link.

Erik comes as having some insecurity issues related to gaming. I infer that he harbors resentment against Gygax for hooking him into this "unwashed nerd" pastime and somehow holds him responsible for his "vow of celibacy" and "marathon RPG sessions in windowless basements." Erik's the real nerd, because he denigrates himself for having liked D&D. He's also a troll.

Erik is ****ed off that his lvl 5 Fighter died before hitting lvl 6.

[Mercules]

The article didn't need to be written but it was.

1st Edition D&D was a crappy system. AD&D was crappy, but better than D&D. D20 D&D 3.x is better but still needs some balance issues worked out. Basically, Mr. Gygax's version of D&D was crappy. That much is true. Despite that none of the other systems would have likely been created without some of the ground breaking D&D did. The fledgling Man-to-Man that GURPS was based off of wouldn't have been created so no D&D no GURPS.

I personally like GURPS. It allows a great deal of flexibility within a frame work. It is far from perfect and there are some huge problems in it, just like D&D. White Wolf is getting a clue and their systems are a bit less confining and more universal. Nothing was more annoying than one race book that said that anything any other race could do could not see through this stealth power and then another race book stating it sees through ALL stealth powers. Which rule is right?

D&D and iconographic and I hope 4th Ed. improves it yet further.

I must add, that even if you hate what the man said he has a right to say such things and wile I think he is a troll, I'll defend his right to write.(to use a bad pun)

[arminius]

And to heck with popular mechanics from now on...boycott

The essay isn't in Popular Mechanics, which is otherwise a sound, excellent publication with a full century of high quality work. They took the lead in aggressively refuting the sociopathic claims of the Truther Movement when no one else in the media or political leadership would stand up for reason and common sense, and for that, there is little I can think of they could do that I wouldn't stand by them.

_

[MysticTheurge]

1st Edition D&D was a crappy system. AD&D was crappy, but better than D&D. D20 D&D 3.x is better but still needs some balance issues worked out.

That may be true, but it's not for the reasons that the writer of this article tries to say it is.

This article is just another in a long line of absurd finger pointing that D&D is merely one small part of.

Video Games, D&D and Comic Books have all been blamed for societies ills at one point or another. I mean heck, they used to not teach anyone but white males to read because it might poison their minds. You can clearly tell the author of this article doesn't know what he's talking about as soon as you get to the subtitle: "The reprehensible moral universe of Gary Gygax's Dungeons & Dragons."

Please, what is this, the Mid-80s? I mean, Jack Chick already covered all that (http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/), right?

:rolleyes:

[Hafeal]

I disagree with the article and some of the conclusions it draws. The author seems to go out of his way to discredit Gygax's impact on RPGs. I personally think the style is not effective in relating its true points.

Its effect? Riling up D&D fans? Well, check that off the list, mission accomplished.

Despite that, some of the criticisms have validity, and they continue to have validity in DDO. I agree with the criticism of the "killing everything to gain xp system." I have been stumping for better XP reward systems besides killing everything here in DDO. You have some - xp bonuses for disabled traps for example. But, in my opinion, not enough. I took that to be the writers main criticism as well, and I believe it has validity.

If Gygax had not died, we would not be having this conversation. The event gives a forum for people to discuss the impact of a man's actions. Thus, I think the author is within his rights to make his analysis and elicit responses.

I kept wishing that the author, instead of making personal attacks on Gygax and D&D players (without humor or even a poor attempt at it), would have framed his constructive criticism better and thus the conversation he might have started would have a better impact and perhaps better results.

[query]

I guess this was a Neo-Nazi rights example moment of free speech so to speak...err, post.


The essay isn't in Popular Mechanics, which is otherwise a sound, excellent publication with a full century of high quality work. They took the lead in aggressively refuting the sociopathic claims of the Truther Movement when no one else in the media or political leadership would stand up for reason and common sense, and for that, there is little I can think of they could do that I wouldn't stand by them.

_

[Westerner]

On a more positive note, this Gygax Article on Wired (http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/news/2008/03/ff_gygax?currentPage=1) is a great read. (Sorry if link has already been posted here somewhere.) Extracts below.

(Gygax) had little time for people who played too by-the-book. "They'd write in and ask the publisher of the game what to do," he says. "Whatever they were told, they did. And I said, that's silly — just make it up."

Gygax paired random mythic words like fantasy, adventure, swords, and sorcery until he came to one his 4-year-old daughter Cindy approved of. "Oh, Daddy," she said, "I like Dungeons & Dragons the best!"

Arneson ... over the course of the 1970s saw the effect that D&D had on the gaming audience … "these D&D guys were from the science fiction community. And there were women! No groupies though, darn it…"

Dungeons & Dragons had a way of turning game players into game designers. The rule set was pure potentiality, and the greater the creativity of each dungeon master, the more the players could extract from it. Many young people found their calling while playing D&D.

[Grond]

Please, what is this, the Mid-80s? I mean, Jack Chick already covered all that (http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/), right?

:rolleyes:

TO.o funny... :D

[Drider]

That being said, I've been in some truely horrendous White Wolf campaigns, and found the 5 dot system in the original White Wolf somewhat restrictive. The system I liked best for character customization was Rolemaster, which was a nightmare if you had an inexperienced GM. *shrug*

It's all about taste, and not everyone has the same tastes.


The only reason I played White Wolf is a few of my friends liked it.. I hated that system.

I personally have always enjoyed D&D.

[Uska]

Just another stupid article the printed that proves they are idiots its not the first one the made me think so, but just the latest in a long series of stupid articles, its why I dont go there regularly myself the site it pretty much worthless.

[Uska]

Though I agree the article is in Poor taste... He is right about D&D... It is a Crappy RPG and there are Much better RPGs out there.. Real Role playing games.. A game where the Systems are based on the story.. not what you are fighting... Like White Wolfs Storyteller system *Which they are making a MMO after*.

The only reason I play D&D PnP is because that is the only game i can find players for in the military..

I will say this... Gygax'z system may have sucked... but his Modules where awesome!...*For a D&D Module*

Never really enjoyed any of whitewolfs games, nor gurps either, was a big fan of the HERO system though. I just stick with the game I have played for over 30 years even though it has evolved I still like it more then anyother.

[dragnmoon]

The only reason I played White Wolf is a few of my friends liked it.. I hated that system.

I personally have always enjoyed D&D.

I know not everyone liked it... I Loved it myself... Loved the idea that you get your "Exp" from Role - playing... not killing things... That was just awesome to me.

Also in my personal experience seen much better White-Wolf Storytellers then D&D Dms... I know that is only a personal Experience though.

That said.. I am a Much better White Wolf Storyteller then a D&D Dm *I am a good DM to.. just do better with the storyteller system*..

Back on subject Kind of.. Though I may not enjoy Gygax's rules *or the rules since then*.. like I said.. he wrote great modules!

[query]

But no, we're all just murderers and sociopaths unable to communicate so we do D&D to prepare for our cult real life demonic worship.....



http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/

NOOOOOOOOOO! THEY FOUND US! HELP US AZEMODIOUS! HELP US!


Seriously, I missed that MST3K. When I finished, I needed something to wipe all the tears streaming down my face in laughter. HOT CHICKS in D&D? Heck, any D&D in the windowless basement males would agree to ANY demands by those HOT CHICK FEMALES, so why all the subplot? :p


Jesus saves, Moses invests and Buddha does make incremental backups.

I see why Satan is peeved. the Devil Az got his billing credit in D&D!

[Vaarsuvius]

As far as the article. Does this guy not realize that if it weren't for GG his precious "second generation" RPG's wouldn't be around?

Agreed.

It's not the issue of was he the best, but more like if he didn't make it happen first would there ever have been other RPG's to compete.

[dragnmoon]

Agreed.

It's not the issue of was he the best, but more like if he didn't make it happen first would there ever have been other RPG's to compete.

That I agree on..

In fact..would there be MMOs?... RPG Video Games?...

[Premier]

Mr. Gygax ALWAYS said it was more about RP/story and that the rule books were just guides.

True that! Peace!

-Premier

[Kerr]

I know not everyone liked it... I Loved it myself... Loved the idea that you get your "Exp" from Role - playing... not killing things... That was just awesome to me.

Also in my personal experience seen much better White-Wolf Storytellers then D&D Dms... I know that is only a personal Experience though.

I kind of like the Call of Cthulhu method. If during the game you use a skill, and succeed using that skill, you flag it. After the story is complete you roll against all the flagged skills. If you roll under it, you can increase the skills. So anything you use, goes up, something you dont' ever use, you never get better at.

[KALASHTAR]

I think someone should point out to him that even if D&D is not the best role playing game out there (which is a whole other arguement) still without the contributions of Gary Gygax there simply would not be any role playing games, he invented the idea of a role playing game where players would roll dice checks. Personally I think that D&D is the best for the same reason that Dom is the best champaign, it was the first, it was the one that all the other ones are based on and thank you Gary Gygax for your incredible contribution to the gaming world (which would not even exhist without it) you will really be missed

[Brutous]

For the most part, D&D made it possible for games to have the concept of levels, experience, and other things they take from.
I'm woefully embarrassed as consistant Slate reader that such a unproven article made it that close to national recognition. Fortunately those who matter (actual players, and fans) know the truth. If the writer (for the lack of better words) thinks that his opinion has any weight then I guess he lives in a fantasy world. It is the entertainment value one is offered that makes something worth their time and money. I would assume that he would consider the gaming industry hampered by said attachment to a man who took something and ran with it, that became a cornerstone of a multi-billion dollar way of life industry.

In the end of the day, I think he is jealous of what a man like Mr. Gygax achieved. Love, Respect, and people who will always remeber him for who he really was, A Hero.

[cryptic]

This article convinced me to join that site, simply just to tell the OP what a noob he is.

Same here

[Vistram]

[QUOTE=Grond;1610494]It reads like the author is a Steve Jackson psychophant. *shrug*
QUOTE]

I always preferred Jackson over Gygax for rulesets.

I thought David Hargrave's work was excellent as well, but disorganized/cluttered.

When I played I used a mix of AD&D and Arduin for my ruleset.

That said, I believe Mr. Gygax would have approved of my mixing what I wanted in my campaign, since it was afterall, mine.

Writing articles trashing him and/or the game is kind of pointless as it was all supposed to be a guideline, if the game sucked kick the **** out of your DM, not the author.

[Riorik]

I would argue that on the surface - a cursory look at DnD - he's correct. However, it's all superficial - in an attempt to simplify things and make life easier for DM's, monsters did have those characteristics...generic they're worth X and they have Y. However, like another posted, it all depends on the DM on what you actually get if anything. He presented it a bit like whatever was in the Monster Manual (or other books) is exactly what you MUST get...and not just a guideline.

In my opinion - the article on the Slate is just an attempt to throw out a controversial viewpoint to attract attention, nothing more.

Keep in mind, in a way, I do agree. The AD&D series really wasn't the best game system out on the market - there were MANY more that were vastly superior in content, detail, etc - to me, up to and including 2nd edition, the game was always nostalgic and simple - the game you could easily roll up a character in and get playing quickly. The latter was the actual attraction - it's also why I ended up reading a lot of the AD&D material - Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, SpellJammer, etc.

[winsom]

That author clearly doesn't understand D&D's wargaming roots. If D&D had been made by performance actors it might have been the game he seems to assume D&D is supposed to be, but he apparently doesn't know the D&D's creators and their historical wargaming pastime. It just shows bad taste on his part to speak badly about a person that he did not do very much research on and that type of commentary reflects badly on a lot of his readers. Poorly done.

I wonder if that editorial is actually a trolling attempt to get reactions out of readers rather than an opinion article that might have some value to it?

[Grond]

[QUOTE=Grond;1610494]It reads like the author is a Steve Jackson psychophant. *shrug*
QUOTE]

I always preferred Jackson over Gygax for rulesets.

I thought David Hargrave's work was excellent as well, but disorganized/cluttered.

When I played I used a mix of AD&D and Arduin for my ruleset.

That said, I believe Mr. Gygax would have approved of my mixing what I wanted in my campaign, since it was afterall, mine.

Writing articles trashing him and/or the game is kind of pointless as it was all supposed to be a guideline, if the game sucked kick the **** out of your DM, not the author.

I have no problem if you like SJ. :) And I agree that GG would have approved of you using your own rules for your own game.

The guy that wrote the article, however, most certainly didn't come across that way. He came across like he had a mouthful of sour grapes over the fact taht his favorite game system wasn't the most popular, so he'd throw some rocks at the guy that wrote the most popular one. His decision to do it in rebuttal to the myriad of articles on the death of GG just accentuates how petty he really is.

[Knightrose]

The only basement virgin I know is the guy who wrote that article.

Maybe I missed out on 'nerd culture' but I've always just enjoyed... the things that I enjoy! Including fornication. Dragons and women went hand in hand for me. Apparently not so for Eric Softphallus.

I don't see how anyone can say D&D is a bad roleplaying game. I think the defintion some people give for roleplaying is way to in-depth and creepy. If I'm rolling dice in order to imagine a fictional Barbarian swinging his axe at a bartender. I'm pretty convinced I'm playing a role. Aren't you?

[Vormaerin]

The basic flaw of that kind of article (which I didn't read in full) is that it fails to understand the intent behind D&D. Gary always figured that the DM would JUST MAKE THAT STUFF UP. You didn't need rules for roleplaying. You needed rules for the fighting and such. You don't need rules for the rest. D&D didn't have any skills or meaningful character customization.. the DM was expected to adjudicate that. Other early games were similarly flawed. Traveller, which was awesome, had no xp mechanic whatsoever. There was, effectively, no practical way to improve your character after play started.

I've played plenty of RPGs over the last several decades. D&D has always been cool because it was straightforward to run combats. For me, its always been easy to make cool, wildeye crazy combats in D&D that actually suited the characters I had. Other games not so much. That's really what keeps me in DDO, too. The wild dungeons and crazy combats are far cooler than I've found in other games.

My favorite game to play is actually Ars Magica, but its not a general purpose game. For doing custom fantasy of my own design, D&D has always worked for me. I'm happy to make up all the stuff the rules don't cover. 3e added a bunch of character customization stuff that's pretty cool in small doses, which is nice. But its all about having a ruleset that'll do wild and crazy when you need it and won't get in your way when you don't. IMHO.

[Melthus]

If Gygax is a hack, because D&D is not perfect, then the Wright brothers were hacks, because their plane barely flew a couple hundred yards. Alexander Graham Bell was a hack because his phone didn't even have a numeric keypad...

Plus, that author has NO CLUE what a decent D&D campaign should be run like. Killing is an OPTION. I've participated in campaigns where killing the opponents were an option, but might make you wanted by the local authorities, or perhaps result in a curse on one of your group. On the other hand, tricking the npcs into following half your group on a wild goose chase, while the rogue frees the captured daughter, or steals the magic item, results in many story xp beyond what the killing version gives.

I suspect that this author is too young to remember when D&D was the only thing or when computer games didn't even have graphics (like enchanter, Zork, or the original hitchhiker's guide). The funny thing is, if you google "erik sofge", nearly every site on the web is blasting him for his stupid critiques, from his article on the Wii, to his worst gadgets of 2007 article. He's a complete idiot, no matter what the topic. He just stepped way over the line when he attacked Gary Gygax, right after his death.

Mr. sofge, may you die (eventually, whenever it happens, not wishing death on you) in the obscurity you deserve, and may nobody comment on your passing! Gary Gygax invented a game in the 1970s that was so popular that in 2008 more people know who he is than who is speaker of the US House of Representatives. That will never happen in your case, "err"ik. Enjoy your cheap dig on a dead man who is much better known than you will ever be.

[Melthus]

double post

[MrWizard]

The essay isn't in Popular Mechanics, which is otherwise a sound, excellent publication with a full century of high quality work. They took the lead in aggressively refuting the sociopathic claims of the Truther Movement when no one else in the media or political leadership would stand up for reason and common sense, and for that, there is little I can think of they could do that I wouldn't stand by them.

_

he is the associate editor of popular mechanics...check out the mechanics site...economic sanctions...:)

[Invalid_86]

Gygax was brilliant as an idea man. He did come up with some great stuff, and we should all be thankful for the new view that was put on our world and our ideas of gaming.

That being said......

He was a horrible writer. Embarassingly bad. Look at the actual writing involved in those 1st edition books and modules. Just....ugh.

I look at 1st edition DnD alot like I like at Pong. Relics of a bygone age, popular because that was all we had. Things have progressed since then, games have evolved, computers and rpgs are much better now, yes DnD included. But where would we be without Pong or 1st edition?

There is a reason why when I was fortunate enough to spend time with the man that I didn't talk about gaming. How do you NOT ask if he was on crack when he wrote most of Unearthed Arcana or the stats for Drow? Better to just enjoy the moment and realize you are relaxing with a true mack daddy who helped shape your world.


http://www.humpin.org/mst3kdd/

NOOOOOOOOOO! THEY FOUND US! HELP US AZEMODIOUS! HELP US!


Holy #@$! I used to have that booklet! Me and my gaming buddies used the laugh at it during DnD games!

The funny thing about that is I once wrote a psychology paper on the negative effects of role playing games, especially as viewed by the religious right. One of the statistics I found was more convicted murderers were altar boys (or their equivalent) in their youth than role players. Take from that what you will. Sorry, don't remember the source, I wish I did though!

[Hvymetal]

I kind of like the Call of Cthulhu method. If during the game you use a skill, and succeed using that skill, you flag it. After the story is complete you roll against all the flagged skills. If you roll under it, you can increase the skills. So anything you use, goes up, something you dont' ever use, you never get better at.Providing you actually live or stay sane long enough for a skill to actually raise:) I loved that system but only had one character actually live for any significant amount of time and he was always teetering towards insanity (I think I learned too many spells :) )

Also a similar system used by Cyberpunk

[Attomic]

The article is nothing but in poor taste. Didn't need to be written. A shame it had to show up in slate as an earlier article spoke to the accomplishments of our First Dungeon Master.

Well, according to Good Journalism, it DID "have" to be written - the author, unable to establish his credentials as a good writer, chooses the yellow-journalism route to fame and fortune: bringing down the ones NORMAL people place on a pedestal. That kind of jacka$$ery is pretty standard fare for what passes as "journalism" these days.

[MysticTheurge]

I'm thinking he should actually write a series. I can't wait to see the other articles:

"Boardwalk Nightmare: The Questionable Business Ethics of Charles Darrow's Monopoly."

"Grandma Nut: The Terrifying Dental Health Repercussions of Eleanor Abbott's Candyland."

[Grond]

I'm thinking he should actually write a series. I can't wait to see the other articles:

"Boardwalk Nightmare: The Questionable Business Ethics of Charles Darrow's Monopoly."

"Grandma Nut: The Terrifying Dental Health Repercussions of Eleanor Abbott's Candyland."

"Dodgeball: Ruining our Youth's Psyche Through Competetive Sports"... wait, that's already been done too :(

[Gornin]

That article reeks of the nerd rage of a jilted munchkin.

I have played every system mentioned in this thread plus many others, and while they all had their good points of which I borrowed, my groups always returned to DnD. Maybe because it was first (you never forget your first), or maybe it was less complicated in the right places, or maybe we were just creatures of habit and liked the familiar, it seems to me that it was always the best overall system.

Just more of the usual.

[Steiner-Davion]

Good roleplay and finding ways OTHER than fighting has been encouraged for as long as I've been aware of D&D...

In fact it is mention in almost every rule book published, multiple itmes no less too, that FUN comes first, before the rules and that creativity should be rewarded. But the "author" neglected to remember that during his bitter ramblings.

[Westerner]

Watch Erik Sofge, Gygax Gravecrapper, Get Tasered!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVxp3EI3pw)

Serves him right...

[Westerner]

I'm thinking he should actually write a series. I can't wait to see the other articles:

"Boardwalk Nightmare: The Questionable Business Ethics of Charles Darrow's Monopoly."

"Grandma Nut: The Terrifying Dental Health Repercussions of Eleanor Abbott's Candyland."

LOL!!

[spicasotan]

there are two main reasons a guy writes something like this:

1 - He's trolling and trying to get people like us to visit his site and generate a bunch of ad revenue.

2 - He was stuck playing in a pen and paper group as a little kid with his big brother as the DM. Obviously his brother only let him play be cause his mom told him to under threat of unimaginable tortures. So of course he says "OK bro, you can play...lets make you a character..." After a whole day of character generation, he gets to the first battle. Something like this occurs:

"you enter a 10x10 room with 47 ancient red dragons in it. They eat you. The end."...Mom!!! I'm done playing with him :)

[Staedtler]

Don't let Gygax's death turn him into the sacred cow of RPGs.

The author brings up very good points about DnD ethics being absolutist. It's a spot on assessment that, if all you want is combat from an RPG, then DnD is a horrible choice compared to modern MMOs. He's also right in pointing out that the game is designed for encounters to be solved through violence and general ass-kicking, with alternative resolutions to encounters largely being ad hoc and at the discretion of the DM.

That being said, there is some mitigation in the Eberron setting. Its approach to the interactions between traditional PC and monster races is quite refreshing. It introduces some moral ambiguity that shows a maturation of DnD ethics.

The point the author is trying to make is that Gary Gygax was not the Christ of RPG gaming. His systems were very flawed from both mechanical and ethical standpoints. This shouldn't take away the advancement that he gave to RPG gaming but it warns against turning him into a Mother Teresa figure whereby all of his human flaws are ignored in favor of treating him like a saint.

[Westerner]

Don't let Gygax's death turn him into the sacred cow of RPGs.

The author brings up very good points about DnD ethics

The point the author is trying to make is that Gary Gygax was not the Christ of RPG gaming.
Straw man defense of an (ex-)gamer w/baggage who spewed venom on the fresh corpse of a gaming industry icon.

If Sofge posted his stuff in a forum, it'd be deleted for trolling. The fact that he wrote it on Slate doesn't give it credibility ... just an undeserved audience.

[Josh]

Yep, it sounds like this @$$hat focused on an incomplete and uneducated perception, made it his pet theory and ran with it, kicking the corpse the entire way.

Good roleplay and finding ways OTHER than fighting has been encouraged for as long as I've been aware of D&D...

We used to have a peer awarded "best roleplayer" at the end of each session. The winner would get a poker chip which he could cash in at his / her choosing. The chip allowed you to do something "heroic", like rolling over a failed saving throw or a missed attack ect. You could also use it like a jedi using a dark side point in Star Wars RPG (think Luke giving Vader a beat down in Ep, VI...yeah he totally used a dark side point there).

Point is, there was a definite reward for role-playing (in addition to the xp bonus awarded). The guy that wrote this article is such a chode.

[Staedtler]

Straw man defense of an (ex-)gamer w/baggage who spewed venom on the fresh corpse of a gaming industry icon.

If Sofge posted his stuff in a forum, it'd be deleted for trolling. The fact that he wrote it on Slate doesn't give it credibility ... just an undeserved audience.

I don't think that distilling the author's intent constitutes a straw man defense. I may be wrong, feel free to correct me.

The only trolling I see going on is people registering on slate.com with the sole purpose of slamming the guy. People are getting way too bent out of shape about something written by someone with a mediocre history of writing. The article is an opinion piece and it's important to remember that before setting out on a nerd rage to defend Gary "Christ" Gygax.


Point is, there was a definite reward for role-playing (in addition to the xp bonus awarded). The guy that wrote this article is such a chode.

The author points out that roleplaying awards were added on as an extra layer by DMs in an ad hoc manner. You make the point yourself when you mention the house rule regarding poker chips. The game was not specifically designed with that intent.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Watch Erik Sofge, Gygax Gravecrapper, Get Tasered!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVxp3EI3pw)

Serves him right...hehe! :D (shoulda gone for the full 30 seconds. :p)

[Altarboy]

So Erick Sofge has to wait until an Icon is deceased to trash talk? What a pathetic coward.

But in the end, Erik's words don't really matter. We, the D&D community, will ensure that Mr. Gygax will be remembered for his fine efforts.
Ditto

[Westerner]

I don't think that distilling the author's intent constitutes a straw man defense. I may be wrong, feel free to correct me.
Straw man defense = "Gary was no <insert Messianic figure>".

Distilling the author's intent = Apologist = "Pardon the author's rudeness, what they meant to say was..."
Why can't Sofge's work stand on its own without the need for someone to "distill" it?


People are getting way too bent out of shape about something written by someone with a mediocre history of writing.
Minimizing accountability by minimizing Sofge. Sofge wrote it, he (and his editor) are accountable.


nerd rage to defend Gary "Christ" Gygax.
Name calling, and straw man again. The only one calling Gygax <insert Messianic figure> is you.
And the only nerds are those who call themselves nerds.

[Altarboy]

This article convinced me to join that site, simply just to tell the OP what a noob he is.

Ahhh...That's better...I had 2 threads in a row that I had to be on the same side as you...Thanks
We're at odds again the world makes sense again

[Raithe]

The writer is confusing his experience with D&D with the original spirit and common implementation of the game. Yes, it was simplistic and short-sighted to tie experience points to killing monsters, but the original versions of D&D have to be viewed as steps in evolution from a strategic battle game to a fantasy role-playing game. Later versions of both tabletop and computerized D&D are much more quest-oriented in how experience is delt, and roleplaying/storytelling has been the primary focus of the game for a long time.

[borackus]

sounds to me he is a little jelous that he wasnt the on to come up with it.. becouse his rpg game's he has created has gone no where and probebly wont.. beside's how did he create and RPG and not use the basses that gygax created??? he co-created should i say the fundimentals of the rpg gamming world.. the starting points of all rpg creations.. if it wasnt for his knowlage of how to put togather this system this guy would have no clue to how to start one..why else would wow and never winters night and balders gate and diablo be created with out this basses, true?? in my opinion gygax should not only get credit for the d&d world but get credit for all rpg in general.. sorry about me blowing off a littel steam but this $%##&@ me off.. thanks fo your time.


(RIP) MR. GYGAX and thanks for the gamming world you have started...

[Jhareth_of_house_No]

Critics are usually some of the lowest forms of life. This guy is most likely a failed game designer.

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, but understand it, teach.

Those who can't teach, write criticism columns in rags like Slate.

[Yaga_Nub]

Don't let Gygax's death turn him into the sacred cow of RPGs.

The author brings up very good points about DnD ethics being absolutist. It's a spot on assessment that, if all you want is combat from an RPG, then DnD is a horrible choice compared to modern MMOs. He's also right in pointing out that the game is designed for encounters to be solved through violence and general ass-kicking, with alternative resolutions to encounters largely being ad hoc and at the discretion of the DM.

That being said, there is some mitigation in the Eberron setting. Its approach to the interactions between traditional PC and monster races is quite refreshing. It introduces some moral ambiguity that shows a maturation of DnD ethics.

The point the author is trying to make is that Gary Gygax was not the Christ of RPG gaming. His systems were very flawed from both mechanical and ethical standpoints. This shouldn't take away the advancement that he gave to RPG gaming but it warns against turning him into a Mother Teresa figure whereby all of his human flaws are ignored in favor of treating him like a saint.

Have you every played DnD?

[cdbd3rd]

Watch Erik Sofge, Gygax Gravecrapper, Get Tasered!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVxp3EI3pw)

Serves him right...


Oh, now that we see him, the comment several pages ago about him being a "jilted munchkin" fits perfectly. All he wanted to do was kill, kill, kill.... and probably even tried to pull some whiny rules-lawyering, before the group he was inflicting himself on kicked him to the curb. Not hard enough, i might add.

[Borrigain]

Any clue on how much xp I could get for "offing" the author?

:D

Borr.

[Grond]

The writer is confusing his experience with D&D with the original spirit and common implementation of the game. Yes, it was simplistic and short-sighted to tie experience points to killing monsters, but the original versions of D&D have to be viewed as steps in evolution from a strategic battle game to a fantasy role-playing game. Later versions of both tabletop and computerized D&D are much more quest-oriented in how experience is delt, and roleplaying/storytelling has been the primary focus of the game for a long time.

Well put, Raithe.

[Justicar]

I had a good laugh over this reply to that article

"you are a 12th level Dork"
Posted by jgarth, 03/11/2008 8:51 AM

[Karr]

Gygax was brilliant as an idea man. He did come up with some great stuff, and we should all be thankful for the new view that was put on our world and our ideas of gaming.

That being said......

He was a horrible writer. Embarassingly bad. Look at the actual writing involved in those 1st edition books and modules. Just....ugh.

I look at 1st edition DnD alot like I like at Pong. Relics of a bygone age, popular because that was all we had. Things have progressed since then, games have evolved, computers and rpgs are much better now, yes DnD included. But where would we be without Pong or 1st edition?

There is a reason why when I was fortunate enough to spend time with the man that I didn't talk about gaming. How do you NOT ask if he was on crack when he wrote most of Unearthed Arcana or the stats for Drow? Better to just enjoy the moment and realize you are relaxing with a true mack daddy who helped shape your world.



First off, I really think most of the "writing" he did in the early manuals was meant to be taken at least slightly tongue-in-cheek. He may not have been another Hemmingway, but he was a talented writer when he wished to be. I was addicted to the Gord of Greyhawk novels he wrote, as well as the articles related to the novels he wrote in Dragon.

Beyond that, this guy at Slate makes his living being a wise@55, always has. This article just goes to show he's also a jealous, mean and vindictive man with a very small spirit. I can only pity him.

[Hafeal]

Well said Staedtler.


Don't let Gygax's death turn him into the sacred cow of RPGs.

The author brings up very good points about DnD ethics being absolutist. It's a spot on assessment that, if all you want is combat from an RPG, then DnD is a horrible choice compared to modern MMOs. He's also right in pointing out that the game is designed for encounters to be solved through violence and general ass-kicking, with alternative resolutions to encounters largely being ad hoc and at the discretion of the DM.

That being said, there is some mitigation in the Eberron setting. Its approach to the interactions between traditional PC and monster races is quite refreshing. It introduces some moral ambiguity that shows a maturation of DnD ethics.

The point the author is trying to make is that Gary Gygax was not the Christ of RPG gaming. His systems were very flawed from both mechanical and ethical standpoints. This shouldn't take away the advancement that he gave to RPG gaming but it warns against turning him into a Mother Teresa figure whereby all of his human flaws are ignored in favor of treating him like a saint.

Raithe -

I think you are correct. But although D&D and DDO have made progress in "untying" xp and killing monsters, I think further "evolution" would be welcome. I think DDO, in particular, could do much better job. With the advent of "slayer" quests, it almost seems like a step backward.


The writer is confusing his experience with D&D with the original spirit and common implementation of the game. Yes, it was simplistic and short-sighted to tie experience points to killing monsters, but the original versions of D&D have to be viewed as steps in evolution from a strategic battle game to a fantasy role-playing game. Later versions of both tabletop and computerized D&D are much more quest-oriented in how experience is delt, and roleplaying/storytelling has been the primary focus of the game for a long time.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Any clue on how much xp I could get for "offing" the author? :DNot much. Afterall, he's just a trash mob peon. ;)

[Grond]

Just out of curiosity, I went back to the old D&D red/blue books and the AD&D DMs Guide and read what they had to say about experience. The D&D books come right out and say that monsters don't have to be killed to be counted as defeated for exp purposes, and the AD&D book exands even further, saying that the DM needs to "Weigh the challenge, be it thinking or fighting" before handing out experience. So, apparently the author of the article (and possibly his supporters here?) never actually read the experience section, and just looked at the charts and assumed that the only way to get experience was by killing things, or that's the way their DM ran the game. Once again, the way the game was run, determined by the DM and/or the player group, determines what kind of campaign you get. Not every campaign is all about kill exp; not every campaign is DM vs. players; not every campaign is conflict within the party (PvP); not every campaign was permadeath; not every campaign was Monty Haul. Did those types of games exist, and still exist today? Sure they do, because some people actually enjoy those playstyles. But to blame hack and slash on GG when the rules in his books from the 70's clearly state that it's not all about hack and slash doesn't hold water; blame your GM or your playgroup instead.

[Attomic]

Critics are usually some of the lowest forms of life. This guy is most likely a failed game designer.

Those who can, do.

Those who can, and are also capable of COMMUNICATING it, teach.

Those who can't do either write criticism columns in rags like Slate.

As an aside, fixed it for ya. Carry on. ;)

[mmurphy1968]

Though I agree the article is in Poor taste... He is right about D&D... It is a Crappy RPG and there are Much better RPGs out there.. Real Role playing games.. A game where the Systems are based on the story.. not what you are fighting... Like White Wolfs Storyteller system *Which they are making a MMO after*.

The only reason I play D&D PnP is because that is the only game i can find players for in the military..

I will say this... Gygax'z system may have sucked... but his Modules where awesome!...*For a D&D Module*

You are entitled to your opinion, but D&D is hardly a crappy RPG. If the players and DM are bad or lacking in interest then so is the game, if they are not then the game is not. I have run games using many different systems and if I did my job right as DM (or GM or Storyteller or whatever) then the story is the engaging part of the game and the system is secondary.

A real role playing game allows it's players to take on and play a role as part of a story and D&D does that. Saying it is not a real role playing game is a matter of personal prejudice and opinion, not a statement of fact.

Also, it seem to me that stating the article is in poor taste and then agreeing with would also be in poor taste.

[mmurphy1968]

Don't let Gygax's death turn him into the sacred cow of RPGs.

The author brings up very good points about DnD ethics being absolutist. It's a spot on assessment that, if all you want is combat from an RPG, then DnD is a horrible choice compared to modern MMOs. He's also right in pointing out that the game is designed for encounters to be solved through violence and general ass-kicking, with alternative resolutions to encounters largely being ad hoc and at the discretion of the DM.

That being said, there is some mitigation in the Eberron setting. Its approach to the interactions between traditional PC and monster races is quite refreshing. It introduces some moral ambiguity that shows a maturation of DnD ethics.

The point the author is trying to make is that Gary Gygax was not the Christ of RPG gaming. His systems were very flawed from both mechanical and ethical standpoints. This shouldn't take away the advancement that he gave to RPG gaming but it warns against turning him into a Mother Teresa figure whereby all of his human flaws are ignored in favor of treating him like a saint.

As one of the people who founded RPG's he is one of the sacred cows of the genre. You are correct in saying he is not the Christ of RPG gaming because he is not it's savior, he is it's creator (along with Dave Anderson, I believe).

Gary Gygax helped to create an entirely new form of gaming that brought a lot of enjoyment to many people, that is not something deserving of criticism. Is the game flawed? Maybe, but so are most other things. If someone does not like the game or care for the rule system, that is fine but it is personal opinion and nothing more. Kicking a corpse that has just been laid to rest is an act deserving of criticism and that is why many of the posters here are reacting the way they are to the article.

[the_clockwork]

I shall content my self with the fact that after watching this dude get tazed, I am pretty sure he has never been laid. Still, I think we should do something nasty to him.

A little search on the web ought to yeild up some lovely dirt.

[Kalari]

Ugh should be in bed but read that post about making Gary Gygax A Sacred cow and even though the logical part of my brain says to sleep the illogical is winning.


I just need to address this for a min, to me d&d pnp has always been what the dm and players make of it, the rule books were mostly a guidline but nothing to enforce unless youre a rules lawyer and as someone who dm'ed a few games a person who got bluebolted more then not. To blast a man after he just died is wrong no matter how you slice it, critize the game fine, people have been doing that since it came out. From religious groups to people who nerd bash for it. But to attack the man because of the authors own bad experienced for it is just tacky. How is honoring someone who gave a game that is still running 30+ yrs making him a saint? And how is it that what he did in his own private and personal life has to even be an issue with anyone who did not A. Do buisness with him or B. was related to him? I mean unless he personally ripped you off I cant see how anyone could attack that man. In fact most of the people who have met him at cons have noted how nice of a guy he was. Buisness asside unless you owned stock in his gaming company when stuff stirred up I dont see how anyone could personally attack him and not feel like a heel doing so.

The author of that article should be ashamed of himself, not just because Mr. Gygax had passed, but because he felt the need to spew venom bitterly about a game. If you dont like it fine, but if your gonna blast something have some facts if your gonna knock something make sure that it isnt something that people still love after 3 decades. Point blank withouth Mr. Gygax alot of people would not have gotten in to gaming the way they did, he helped establish a core game that builded not only fantasy but friendships. And it sickens me that anyone could attack him in this way.

Bah my emotions getting riled up just ticks me off that anyone could defend this mans intentions. As an american I can defend his right to write garbage, but I dont agree with his beliefs and think he is a waste of space.

[Zedim]

It seems to me that he never really played the game, but like some of you others have said just had a passing experience with it and came to some pretty ridiculous conclusions that he held onto firmly. That and a Steve Jackson ass kiss. If Gygax and Dave hadn't created D&D, there very likely wouldn't be any SJ games. The writer of that article is merely an exceedingly bitter hack himself.

[Zedim]

Oh, and one more thing. Erik writes:

"This is not Tolkien's Middle-Earth, with its anti-fascist political commentary and yearning for an end to glory and the triumph of peace."

What anti-fascist commentary?? J.R.R. had said on more than one occasion that there were no religious or WWII parallels whatsoever in The Ring Trilogy. Erik is a man chock full of presumption and a histrionic. And yes, he seems to fail to recognize that video games based on gaining experience are based on D&D. Not the other way around. I dare say that this man would make a good propaganda spinner.

[Zedim]

Don't let Gygax's death turn him into the sacred cow of RPGs.

The author brings up very good points about DnD ethics being absolutist. It's a spot on assessment that, if all you want is combat from an RPG, then DnD is a horrible choice compared to modern MMOs. He's also right in pointing out that the game is designed for encounters to be solved through violence and general ass-kicking, with alternative resolutions to encounters largely being ad hoc and at the discretion of the DM.

That being said, there is some mitigation in the Eberron setting. Its approach to the interactions between traditional PC and monster races is quite refreshing. It introduces some moral ambiguity that shows a maturation of DnD ethics.

The point the author is trying to make is that Gary Gygax was not the Christ of RPG gaming. His systems were very flawed from both mechanical and ethical standpoints. This shouldn't take away the advancement that he gave to RPG gaming but it warns against turning him into a Mother Teresa figure whereby all of his human flaws are ignored in favor of treating him like a saint.

You have not, obviously, read the books much, or not at all closely.

[Zedim]

Oh, now that we see him, the comment several pages ago about him being a "jilted munchkin" fits perfectly. All he wanted to do was kill, kill, kill.... and probably even tried to pull some whiny rules-lawyering, before the group he was inflicting himself on kicked him to the curb. Not hard enough, i might add.


Yessir, also known as "Small Man's Complex."

[Westerner]

I shall content my self with the fact that after watching this dude get tazed, I am pretty sure he has never been laid. Still, I think we should do something nasty to him.

A little search on the web ought to yeild up some lovely dirt.
LOL!!

Rock on, bro.

[cdbd3rd]

.... I can only pity him.

Yeah. I pity a dog with rabies, too.


...then I shoot him.:rolleyes::p

[Elsiah]

Wow, what an uninformed load of bull****.

mt, i love you.

i got so enraged that i went off the deep end and posted on thier forum...it's the post by mindless asking about steve jackson's preference for lubricant. be warned, it's harsh.

[Westerner]

Erik writes:

"This is not Tolkien's Middle-Earth, with its anti-fascist political commentary and yearning for an end to glory and the triumph of peace."

What anti-fascist commentary?? J.R.R. had said on more than one occasion that there were no religious or WWII parallels whatsoever in The Ring Trilogy. Erik is a man chock full of presumption and a histrionic ... I dare say that this man would make a good propaganda spinner.
/signed

JRRT explicitly says in the LOTR intro (quoting/paraphrasing from memory) that "as for any allegory or hidden meaning, it has in the intention of the author none". He goes on to specifically exclude WWII and fascism as allegories, explaining that if the (ahem) Westerners were the WWII Allies and Sauron was Hitler and the Ring was atomic weapons, then Gondor would have built its own Ring of Power and used it against Sauron. He aimed for "applicability" rather than allegory... the former having universal and timeless meaning, the latter "the slavish impositions of the author". But Sofge apparently knows better.

The literary set hated LOTR when it came out b/c it wasn't the topical allergory human drama they were used to.

[ccheath776]

Found this article that made me a little more than upset ....... I know that people have the right to free speech but come on! The guy passed away (RIP) and the way you say that type of **** about a game that you might not have a clue about! ...... Dunno check it out for yourself!

http://www.slate.com/id/2186203/nav/ais/

Does this idiot realize that without Gary, steve whatever his name is and the other unknown name he mentioned would not have written their games with out him.
Does he realize that an entire generation of creative artists, game makers, thinkers, writers, moviemakers, and fantasy artists would not exist if not for DND.

he turns me off with his first paragraph.
"playing game (RPG) sessions in windowless basements, our fingers hardened to nacho-cheese-encrusted talons, and our monklike vows of celibacy. Part testament to Gygax, part cathartic confessional, these obituaries are rapidly cementing his position at the head of the geek pantheon."

Is he kidding? This is the same stereotypical BS that Chick tracks spews about us gamers and its just not so. Sure possibly I did that in the early days because I was a young and where else was I supposed to play? We never played in the basements, mostly it was at the hobby stores, my friends living room card table, or even once in a hotel conference room for an entire weekend. Call it what you want, geeky, nerdy, whatever. Did I turn out to be some whacked out long haired wierdo who only drinks mountain dew and eats nachos? Please. I'm married, have one kid, a high paying job and an education. If anything that represents the majority of gamers I know. The few geekizoids out there prolly put a bad image on the whole game, but in the end I dont care who plays DND or what they do with their own time, or how much they enjoy it. Its a free country people can live, act, and play dnd however they please.

Its what this person was missing. He felt that the DND rule book was set in stone and to be taken literally. Well begging his pardon but he has never played PNP dnd then. Because it states very clearly that all rules in any dnd book written are considered guidelines and its up to the DM to play it out. If the DM says you dont get 100 xp for killing 10 kobolds, you dont get it. If the DM hands you 3k xp for finding the ingenius way of getting into the hideout, then you get it.
The DM is not the referee, he OR SHE, is the guide, the Supreme being, and the gosh darn judge jury and executioner.
If the DM says the campaign is played with NO xp and levels are gained by other means, so be it.
Long as your still using the core rules of the D20 system.

"A good role-playing game provides the framework for a unique kind of narrative, a collaborative thought experiment crossed with improvisational theater. But D&D, particularly the first edition that Gygax co-wrote in 1975, makes this sort of creative play an afterthought. "

WHAT?!! Improvisational theatre is what DND is. What the heck game was he playing?

"More importantly, characters in this new system could be fleshed out down to the smallest detail, from a crippling phobia of snakes to a severe food allergy. And when it came to experience points, characters got whatever the "gamemaster" decided. They might earn points for succeeding at a given task or simply for playing their character in a compelling way."

JACKSON BASED GURPS on Gyax's model. Is this writer NUTS!! DND is based on what he just said. Characters get whatever the DM decides. ITs the same in DND, does he not realize that. You get Xp for succeeding at any task or playing in a compelling way. What the heck is he talking about anyway.
Its like calling the creator of baseball terrible because its not like cricket. Games with similar playstyles but different sets of basic rules doesn't mean the creator is an idiot or moron.
By that thinking anything but the basic game of chess is stupid, dumb, and the creators are all geekified doofusses. Or that the creator of the wheel is a moron because this inventor over here created a wheel with rubber on it. It still doesn't take into account that without the original there would not be the latter.
No gyax, no precious Steve Jackson or many many other things.

He has a right to say what he wants, but by the same token I'm allowed to call them an idiot. Id like to say I would need some effort to prove why I think this but his words pretty much do all the explaining needed.
What a moron, and I think he is just speaking to speak and get a reaction, I think honestly this is a farse article meant to get a few laughs but he just instead danced over a great mans grave. Either way,
/ignore

[ccheath776]

/signed

JRRT explicitly says in the LOTR intro (quoting/paraphrasing from memory) that "as for any allegory or hidden meaning, it has in the intention of the author none". He goes on to specifically exclude WWII and fascism as allegories, explaining that if the (ahem) Westerners were the WWII Allies and Sauron was Hitler and the Ring was atomic weapons, then Gondor would have built its own Ring of Power and used it against Sauron. He aimed for "applicability" rather than allegory... the former having universal and timeless meaning, the latter "the slavish impositions of the author". But Sofge apparently knows better.

The literary set hated LOTR when it came out b/c it wasn't the topical allergory human drama they were used to.

Agreed.
LOTR is about as far from having a political meaning as the little red riding hood.
I dont know where people get that from.

I'm sure this dude thinks that DND is based on satanic rituals as well. Pfffft.

[Cjarr]

How many of us made fun of his voice in Deleras quest? Probably alot more then would like to admit. What is the difference in making fun of somone when they are alive and unable to defend trhemselves and making fun of them when they are dead and not being able to defend themselves.

ME!!! I did....laugh at the voice EVERYTIME..... that being said, I would have gladly told him to his face he had a voice that sounded almost as insane ridiculous as my own if I had only had the oppertunity to meet him. Though your point is true, there are many who would prefer to "insult in the dark, smile to the sun".

As for the arguements about the merit of the D&D system compared to others, I have played many and can agree it all comes down to the players and the DM/GM. If it is run hack&slash then thats what you get.....

The one thing I did like about D&D was (at least early on, I go back to early '80's) was the numerious times the books encouraged and at times forced you to make your own "house rules". The point that the books were only a loose guide, a set of suggestions to get you started. I know that as the new editions rolled out it became more and more concrete rules, but that was never the games intent. What it is now I don't know as I haven't actively played PnP since about '97.

The article is just another example of one that has been written numerious times over the years, unneeded and in poor taste, but meaningless.

[Karr]

Yeah. I pity a dog with rabies, too.


...then I shoot him.:rolleyes::p


Well, it IS the only ethical thing to do. :)

[Zedim]

/signed

JRRT explicitly says in the LOTR intro (quoting/paraphrasing from memory) that "as for any allegory or hidden meaning, it has in the intention of the author none". He goes on to specifically exclude WWII and fascism as allegories, explaining that if the (ahem) Westerners were the WWII Allies and Sauron was Hitler and the Ring was atomic weapons, then Gondor would have built its own Ring of Power and used it against Sauron. He aimed for "applicability" rather than allegory... the former having universal and timeless meaning, the latter "the slavish impositions of the author". But Sofge apparently knows better.

The literary set hated LOTR when it came out b/c it wasn't the topical allergory human drama they were used to.

Yessir. That's what I said. :)

[Westerner]

Sofge responds (http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/thread/972210.aspx?ArticleID=2186203) to my Taser thread on Slate.

[Oreg]

*edit*

[Westerner]

*edit*
edited

[Kalari]

LOL Westerner should have known his comeback at ya would be as lame as his article ^_^

That guy is a loser capital "L"

Funny how he mentioned s&m to ya to id watch yourself around him he may have been trying to pick ya up ;)

[Westerner]

Funny how he mentioned s&m to ya to id watch yourself around him he may have been trying to pick ya up ;)
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!! Ah, dude. I'd rather not go there..

[Westerner]

Steve Jackson rebutts Sofge on Slate (http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/thread/987227.aspx?ArticleID=2186203)

[Mad_Bombardier]

Steve Jackson rebutts Sofge on Slate (http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/thread/987227.aspx?ArticleID=2186203)As if CarWars wasn't incentive enough, I ♥ Steve Jackson. :D

[Riorik]

The author points out that roleplaying awards were added on as an extra layer by DMs in an ad hoc manner. You make the point yourself when you mention the house rule regarding poker chips. The game was not specifically designed with that intent.

Baloney - the rules were always a framework. Expecting a rule to exist for every possible conceivable occurence is a bit unreasonable. In fact, I'd argue that the literal explosion of rules, subrules, etc - hurt the game more than it helped it. The reliance on a centralized authority (Wizards) really just played into their marketing business model strategy to separate you from your $$.

In better than 20 years as a gamer, I met FEW that only played a single game. Some did, but learned to enjoy some variety - many would play the simple then the complex as a counterpoint. Neither really met their needs - all combined did.

Even today, my reading and gaming habits vary by my moods.

[baddax]

Not sure that D&D was the first RPG on the market but it was the first one that I ever played. I know there have been many revisions to the D&D rules and many RPG since D&D but in my memory it was the first and best RPG of the day. I have not played many other RPG's, a few but not many. That said i am sure there are better systems out there just like im sure that todays cars computers etc. are better than the cars computers etc. than in 77. But there is something to be said about being a creator for a genera. like i said not sure it was first; but it was first to make pop culture aware of RPG's. I remember to this day a story that 60 minuntes (or 20/20) did on DnD, rock music and satanism, and some statistic that they threw out like like "20% of people who play DnD are satinists, and 20% of kids who listen to rock are satanists". So me and my buddies sat down and figured that there was a 100% that one of us was a satanist! lmao and had a big discussion on who it was LMAO! Turns out we all grew up to be normal non satanic people though! So my point is it my not have been the first and it might not be the best but it was the first that blew up into the national phenomenon that today is RPG's, and there is something to be said for that.

[Zedim]

Not sure that D&D was the first RPG on the market but it was the first one that I ever played. I know there have been many revisions to the D&D rules and many RPG since D&D but in my memory it was the first and best RPG of the day. I have not played many other RPG's, a few but not many. That said i am sure there are better systems out there just like im sure that todays cars computers etc. are better than the cars computers etc. than in 77. But there is something to be said about being a creator for a genera. like i said not sure it was first; but it was first to make pop culture aware of RPG's. I remember to this day a story that 60 minuntes (or 20/20) did on DnD, rock music and satanism, and some statistic that they threw out like like "20% of people who play DnD are satinists, and 20% of kids who listen to rock are satanists". So me and my buddies sat down and figured that there was a 100% that one of us was a satanist! lmao and had a big discussion on who it was LMAO! Turns out we all grew up to be normal non satanic people though! So my point is it my not have been the first and it might not be the best but it was the first that blew up into the national phenomenon that today is RPG's, and there is something to be said for that.

My friend, D&D was the first RPG. The very first. It was totally "outside the box", if you will, when it came out. I still remember being 11 years old and completely blown away by the whole idea. I first read about it in a local paper called Parade, and it would turn out to be one of the few positive non gamer articles to ever be written about it, thanks to Patricia Pulling and 20/20 and other propagandists. D&D was the groundbreaker for all RPG's to come. It had never been done before till then. :)

[Yaga_Nub]

Steve Jackson rebutts Sofge on Slate (http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/thread/987227.aspx?ArticleID=2186203)

That's awesome. I love SJ for writing that post.

[Westerner]

As if CarWars wasn't incentive, enough. I ♥ Steve Jackson. :D


That's awesome. I love SJ for writing that post.

SJ is good people. Had a ton of fun playing Car Wars back in the day... steamrollering subcompacts with a semi ... picking up new gear at Uncle Albert's... good times. I also enjoyed OGRE, too.

[Grond]

Kudos to Steve Jackson. I especially liked the line, "I suppose Erik would mock the Wright Brothers because they didn’t build a jet? Come on." My thoughts exactly.

[Mockduck]

Yeah, that article was annoying and an obvious ploy for attention (by Slate and the author). Pretty disgusting. Steve Jackson, meanwhile, once again shows why he's one of my favorite game creators!

[jarew2you77]

All I can say is this...and I say it as sincerely as I can. The world Gygax created only has what you bring in to it. That being said ...the world is as fantastic as those who lead the gaming session and those who play in it. You can trash talk all you want or worship as much as you want. Ultimately he had a great idea and gave it life. What more can you say about a visionary. I personally think It is an awesome game and I always try to add the extra stuff to make it fun...and yes if you hear me on voice i'll try to do my best crazy dwarf for you in party. Where am i going with this? well it is simple...no game will every truely be perfect because its created by people...take the presidential election for instance...has there ever truely been a perfect candidate? The trick is to find someone or something that makes you warm and fuzzy. The part I liked so much about dungeons and dragons is that if we found something that didn't work we just said...."how can we fix this" and created our own rules. So Gary wherever you are my friend you will be missed. You created my favorite game :)


PS- to that jerkwad who wrote that article...I played football and had more girlfriends than you could ever imagine in your tiny world. You use stereotypes to make yourself feel better or more important and your a tiny person. I hope some day you at least see clearly enough to feel ashamed of trashing a dead person.


In game- Caradoon

[parvo]

Steve Jackson? Like all good nerds, I liked Car Wars but, what is it called...NERPS? C'mon...Steve woulda been panhandling pocketboxes on the corner if it weren't for the foundation of gamers that played D&D. I bet Steve Jackson was quite sad to hear the news and would distance himself from that article.