Devs, Concordant Opposition Bugged????

[edana]

Per Concordant Opposition's description = When the wearer of this item is successfully attacked in melee, there is a chance the item will bestow temporary hit points AND grant spell point to the wearer. that would meant we get temp hp AND sp in one hit right? cos that is not how it works atm, so far all i see is either hp OR sp. is this a bug?

[tihocan]

I suspect it means you get a chance to get HP and a chance to get SP. Because the two are separate you would be unlikely to get both at the same time (though it should be possible with this interpretation).

[Mad_Bombardier]

Hmmm... Chance of HP and chance of SP. So, that would be and/or.

[Shima-ra]

Are you guys lawyers?

[MysticTheurge]

Are you guys [rules] lawyers?

Yes. :D ;)

[Albel]

Yes. :D ;)

Figures you'd claim that...

[DeadlyGazebo]

Per Concordant Opposition's description = When the wearer of this item is successfully attacked in melee, there is a chance the item will bestow temporary hit points AND grant spell point to the wearer. that would meant we get temp hp AND sp in one hit right? cos that is not how it works atm, so far all i see is either hp OR sp. is this a bug?

It's a 1% chance to gain HP, and a separate roll for a 1% chance to gain SP.

So, you do have a 1 in ten thousand chance to get HP+SP on the same hit :)

[Turial]

It's a 1% chance to gain HP, and a separate roll for a 1% chance to gain SP.

So, you do have a 1 in ten thousand chance to get HP+SP on the same hit :)

I'll take those odds.

[totmacher]

1%?! even the torc of raiyum is better than that... for shame

[SneakThief]

1%?! even the torc of raiyum is better than that... for shame

Yeah OUCH!!! ... I would expect for something that takes 24 large ingredients, 10 high energy cells, and 2 supreme shards to be at least 2.5% and 2.5% :D Since everything else at tier 3 has around a 5% chance. (Though I wouldnt complain about 3% and 3%) :D

[jjflanigan]

Doesn't the torc require you to take damage, though? This is just when you are hit, whether it does damage or not.

(I could be completely mistaken, if so, just ignore me as usual)

*EDIT*

How much do the items give back? Is it the same amount?

[edana]

It's a 1% chance to gain HP, and a separate roll for a 1% chance to gain SP.

So, you do have a 1 in ten thousand chance to get HP+SP on the same hit :)

thank you for the reply and clear things up.

As far as %.... hehe. all I can say is I really like the % in actual test result (in pvp, total of 200 hit, 100 hit with concordant opposition and torc, concordant opposition and torc do stack, we can get both sp on the same hit . I was hoping to get temp hp on top of the sp that i got.. i know, i am greedy :D )

SP from concordant opposition is about 15-35 (25 avg)

[Cowdenicus]

It's a 1% chance to gain HP, and a separate roll for a 1% chance to gain SP.

So, you do have a 1 in ten thousand chance to get HP+SP on the same hit :)

Ouch that % seems really low, should probably boost that to around 3-5%

[Eladrin]

Ouch that % seems really low, should probably boost that to around 3-5%
A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

[sirgog]

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

Ouch.

Now to figure out how to get an Essence of Cleansing or seven... All we know is that it is an end reward option.

Eladrin, can you please drop a hint as to whether that comes from Shroud completion end rewards, a collectible turnin (i.e. end reward for the Healing Totems collection quest etc), or something else (would be HILARIOUS if the Devs went and added it to the end rewards for the Black Abbot...)

[BlueLightBandit]

1. "A chance to gain Hit Points and Spell Points" is different than "A chance to gain Hit Points and a chance to gain Spell Points."

2. Turbine is notorious for having the incorrect "wording" in the description, as they seem to employ neither rules lawyers nor logicians. So whatever we conclude in here makes no difference as it will be mod 17 before descriptions are worked on. It's just depressing that a certain percent of the descriptions in game are simply wrong... and there's nothing we can do about it.

3. The 1% chance is only as ridiculous as the inverse of the number of points given. If it's a 1% chance to earn 100 points, then it's probably decent. If it's a 1% chance to earn 5 points... then it's past laughable.

[Cowdenicus]

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

I didnt think they would stack to be quite honest.

[edana]

I dont think there is any question/confusion/argument about Air Guard's description

Air Guard = When the wearer of this item is successfully attacked in melee, this power occasionally come to the surface, knocking enemies over OR speed up the wearer with rushing winds.

Not trying to be picky on wording. but thats why i got questions about concordant opposition.

[SneakThief]

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

So you are really expecting people to have 8 of the same 3rd tier upgrade? Could you, I dont know, up the percentage but make it so that having more than ... two(?) ... didnt help?

As it stands right now ... Thats 1 in 50 for EITHER sp or hp ... after 50 hits, anyone needing sp is pretty much toast :D They stand a much better chance of surviving 20.

[Xaxx]

with the current drop rate of stuff in part 4 (not getting an ingridient for 7 runs in a row besides an unpowered orb really really perturbed me) and the fact that to get an ingridient out of part 5 you have to deal with the lockout, getting just one of these 24 bit upgrades done will take a long while..... to get multiples of the same one..... man the devs must have been smokin something good when th ey thought of that.

I really hope that if this is the thought direction behind the super upgrades that they give another thought to drop rate of part 4

[gpk]

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

As some others have said, wouldn't the effect be non-stacking for more items? Would 5% still be unbalancing from one source?

[MysticTheurge]

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

Giving the item a higher proc rate and making them not stack would be a better solution to this problem.

[sirgog]

with the current drop rate of stuff in part 4 (not getting an ingridient for 7 runs in a row besides an unpowered orb really really perturbed me) and the fact that to get an ingridient out of part 5 you have to deal with the lockout, getting just one of these 24 bit upgrades done will take a long while..... to get multiples of the same one..... man the devs must have been smokin something good when th ey thought of that.

I really hope that if this is the thought direction behind the super upgrades that they give another thought to drop rate of part 4

It's MUCH better than the 25 dragon scales thingy, where they seem to have a drop rate of 25%.

With no trading, that's 10 ransacks of the Tor to make your dragonscale armour.

You can open 12-13 Large Ingredient chests in a week, and probably average 8 ingredients from them. So 3 weeks for an ultimate item, with solid improvements enroute.

[GlassCannon]

Giving the item a higher proc rate and making them not stack would be a better solution to this problem.

Due to its costly investment, a 10% nonstacking bonus would be desirable, and possibly somewhat fair for a 3rd tier upgrade(or beyond).

5% seems a smidge too low. a 1% 4% 9% progression ought to work better(1+3+5).

[Eladrin]

Giving the item a higher proc rate and making them not stack would be a better solution to this problem.
I'm actually not 100% certain on the stacking nature of Concordant Opposition, as Piloto created it, not me.

With a prototype system, we're likely to err on the side of caution at times, especially when it's related to something we normally don't do (like SP healing).

We'll be tracking all the information we receive from it, and are very likely to make adjustments to things we find too weak or excessively powerful.

[woodspider]

Can some one point me to the post with this item in it? I have covered the user written guilde, but might have missed it.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Can some one point me to the post with this item in it? I have covered the user written guilde, but might have missed it.

Don't know the post - but I have a screenshot here (http://will.phase.net/ddo/items/tier%203/Item%20-EE%20+EE%20(+EE%20-EE).jpg).

Garth

[MysticTheurge]

We'll be tracking all the information we receive from it, and are very likely to make adjustments to things we find too weak or excessively powerful.

So you're going to re-examine the Dominion/Ethereal weapons and items then? ;)

[Cowdenicus]

I'm actually not 100% certain on the stacking nature of Concordant Opposition, as Piloto created it, not me.

With a prototype system, we're likely to err on the side of caution at times, especially when it's related to something we normally don't do (like SP healing).

We'll be tracking all the information we receive from it, and are very likely to make adjustments to things we find too weak or excessively powerful.

Well at least you all are open to suggestions and all, and really I cannot ask for more than that......

[Xaxx]

It's MUCH better than the 25 dragon scales thingy, where they seem to have a drop rate of 25%.

With no trading, that's 10 ransacks of the Tor to make your dragonscale armour.

You can open 12-13 Large Ingredient chests in a week, and probably average 8 ingredients from them. So 3 weeks for an ultimate item, with solid improvements enroute.

id be happy with 8 of 12 drop rate but i think its more along the line of 4 of 12 depending on your luck maybe 7 or 12 or 2 of 12

[Delzon]

It's MUCH better than the 25 dragon scales thingy, where they seem to have a drop rate of 25%.

With no trading, that's 10 ransacks of the Tor to make your dragonscale armour.

You can open 12-13 Large Ingredient chests in a week, and probably average 8 ingredients from them. So 3 weeks for an ultimate item, with solid improvements enroute.

I would love it if I pulled 5 large ingredients while sacking my guys. Four is my record so far, however I am not counting energy orbs or horns. I have around 45 medium power cells, and 20 high. Don't get me started on how many worthless horns I have.

[Vhlad]

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5230/threadnecro.gif


A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

Based on this comment, and based on initial testing way back when, myself and others have invested years worth of ingredients and essences to equip multiple characters with multiple conc opp accessories.

Recent testing reveals these accessories do not stack. i.e. the quoted statement by Eladrin false, because if the proc rate was 5% and you wore eight of them, it would still be 5% total, because the other 7 do nothing.


We'll, im testing this with my lvl 12 TR fvs, vhladx, right now, with 3x conc opp accessories.

I'm using the 4 skeleton archers in part 1 delears on casual. With 3 DR and the temp hp procs, I am able to test this solo without healing myself. And I can prep behind the pillar between each test without changing the instance.

standing still (not blocking), with the following items equipped: greater false life belt, minos helm, +5 cha ring, +5 con ring. All other slots empty. No weapons equipped. No torc equipped.

Test 1:
1x conc opp (cloak)
5/1605 mana. 4 archer aggro.
16 mins to refill mana to full

3x conc opp (cloak, goggles, bracers)
5/1605 mana. 4 archer aggro.
15 mins to refill mana to full

Will test more.

Test 2: Just the minos helm equipped this time, same instance
1 conc opp (cloak)
2/1542 mana. 4 archer aggro.
16 mins to refill mana to full

3x conc opp (cloak, goggles, bracers)
2/1542 mana. 4 archer aggro.
14 mins to refill mana to full

**** this ****, I'm doing more tests.

Test 3. New instance. In on normal. Just the minos helm equipped. Looking at seconds this time.
1 conc opp (cloak). 4 archer aggro.
2/1542 mana @ 2:08:20
1542/1542 mana @ 2:24:45
16 mins 25 seconds to refill mana to full

3x conc opp (cloak, goggles, bracers). 4 archer aggro.
1/1542 mana @ 2:27:52
1542/1542 mana @ 2:44:50
16 mins 58 seconds to refill mana to full

When was this nerfed?
Why was it nerfed?
Why wearn't we told it was nerfed?

Are you going to unnerf it?
Are you going to allow us to deconstruct our useless items that we spent years crafting to get our ingredients back?
Are you going to allow us to get our wasted essences back, that we grinded 20 shrouds each and gave up a +3 tome each to obtain?

[Samadhi]

Summation of what Vlad said: Please tell us what is going on before we all murder ourselves ><

[Aspenor]

/wrist

[Lorz]

Summation of what Vlad said: Please tell us what is going on before we all murder ourselves ><

Nice summation...and accurate.

:)

[Roman]

Eladrin also said this....


I'm actually not 100% certain on the stacking nature of Concordant Opposition, as Piloto created it, not me.

With a prototype system, we're likely to err on the side of caution at times, especially when it's related to something we normally don't do (like SP healing).

We'll be tracking all the information we receive from it, and are very likely to make adjustments to things we find too weak or excessively powerful.

So the person to be asking would be Piloto.

There is also a know issue with certain items canceling the effects of each other. Example is ToD ring sets. Ravager and Tempest, and also the ToD ring sets and DT Sovereign effect Destruction. It's possible that Conc Op accessories are intended to stack just like Conc Op weapons, but are not due to some obscure bug.

I say bug report it.

[Nott]

So the person to be asking would be Piloto.Two years ago, when this thread was active, the person to as would have been Piloto. Today, assuming Piloto is still with Turbine, his memory of this one thing he worked on over the past few years might not be accurate enough to overcome anecdotal evidence. A better answer would be had if a competent developer read the source to see what was happening.

[Shade]

When was this nerfed?


If you follow the flow of this thread logically, you'd see it was actaully buffed, not nerfed.

Here's what happened:

Eladrin said having 8 times 5% would be overpowered, so they would never do that (if they stacked).

Eladrin posted he wasn't sure if they stacked or not, as he didn't create the system, Piloto did.

Some months later, Eladrin confirmed with Piloto the items did not stack, and thus buffed it to 5% after all (this was not posted, but has been confirmed by many players testing, current proc is 5% HP, 2% SP)

So nothing was nerfed. They infact massively increased it's procrate.

[buffsrule]

We'll be tracking all the information we receive from it, and are very likely to make adjustments to things we find too weak or excessively powerful.

if you find that it is too powerfull now, i can foresee riots in G-land. i would hope for a way to deconstruct shroud items/weapons before any decision to start nerfing them.

[Bloodhaven]

Edit for reading comprehension fail!

[Bloodhaven]

Edit for Reading comprehension fail!

[BurningDownTheHouse]

So what you are saying is "This is what I think and there is no supporting documentation" ?

Yep, that's what he says.
Doesn't change the fact that he is probably spot on, though...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Edit for Reading comprehension fail!

Haha!!!!
It will remain here for posterity (one post up) :D

[Vhlad]

For debate on the matter, please use this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236478

I do not want this thread to fill up with arguments or tests. I know what the results are, I know now what currently stacks, I resurrected this thread to ask the devs some direct questions.

Please please please take all your arguments, nitpicking, and uninformed inquiries to the thread already being used for that purpose here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236478


...It was actually buffed, not nerfed.
It was changed. If you had 4 shroud conc opp accessories at 1% each under the expectation that all would stack based on eladrins post in this thread, then you are expecting ~4% total. At present state, with the accessories not stacking, if indeed the proc rate was raised to 2%, you would expect a net loss of 2%; i.e. a relative nerf. If however you only had 1 accessory to begin with, then under these conditions it would be a buff.

But shade, please, I dont want to debate this with you. I'll change my wording to make you happy.

I think everyone wants a direct answer from the devs:

When was this changed?
Why was it changed?
Why wearn't we told it was changed?

Are you going to change it again?
Are you going to allow us to deconstruct our useless items that we spent years crafting to get our ingredients back?
Are you going to allow us to get our wasted essences back, that we grinded 20 shrouds each and gave up a +3 tome each to obtain?

It was implied in this post that these would stack:

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

Based on the information we had at the time, and based on testing done over a year ago, it became widespread belief that all shroud guards (conc opp items included) stacked. The devs were silent while this belief led to many players wasting their items, their time, their +3 tomes, their essences, all to craft things that did nothing. Why?

Devs, do you have any idea how discouraging this is for those who grinded the items? You explain stacking mechanics of concealment here:

Only the most powerful concealment effect applies. There is one bug (that I just fixed locally) where incorporeal miss chance was misclassified as a concealment effect.
And verify it here:

What he said. :-)

Since you're willing to answer concealment stacking, why have you been so silent about the true stacking mechanics of shroud guards?

Finally, to be as constructive as possible, here's how to fix it for the players who feel slighted:
Add a new crafting recipe:
place into the altar: 1 shroud accessory guard of type X + 1 shroud accessory guard of type X (i.e. two shroud accessories whose name is identical; i.e. lightning gloves + lightning boots, or conc opp goggles + conc opp boots)
Then hit crunch. Both items poof, and you receive: any and all taint cleansing essences used.
That's enough for me. If you want to add the return of raw ingredients as well, I'm sure it would make other players happy.

[Bloodhaven]

moving to the other thread on this topic

[Vhlad]

moving to the other thread on this topic

Omg thank you. I owe you positive rep. I won't forget!

[Shade]

I'll change my wording to make you happy.

It's not about being happy, it's about being informed. I was just making sure you understood the facts and logic of the thread.

It seems you can not, but that doesn't effect my thoughts or opinion either way.

[Ota]

Some months later, Eladrin confirmed with Piloto the items did not stack,

is there a link to this conversation cause i never heard of this

[Bloodhaven]

Haha!!!!
It will remain here for posterity (one post up) :D

yea I did not read some of the other posts in this thread, Can you believe i got a ton of neg rep for those edits? They were only up for what 2 minutes? that to me means i got neg rep after the edits.. go figure.

[MRH]

2mins - ton of neg rep..... were you wearing shoes and socks, with your tshirt? Cause i heard the tshirt proc's differently than it does when wearing both shoes and socks. lol

Did you notice if the neg reps proc'd at the same time? SS plz LOL or did they neg proc at their own % to proc?


lmao just had to

oh and....

(combat) RC strikes you with shoe attack
(combat) You recieve +1 rep from your shoes

[Vhlad]

Clear, 720p resolution, video evidence of conc opp accessories not stacking:

Location: Deleras part 1, casual, 4 skeleton archers

First video:
No DR (shown in character window)
1 conc item (benefit shown in combat log when equipped)
6/1701 mana at 00:50
1550/1701 mana at 9:47
Summary: 1544 mana gained in 8:57 with 1 conc opp accessory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOcnX3Ss-24

Second video:
No DR (shown in character window)
3 conc items (benefit shown in combat log for each one when equipped)
1/1701 mana at 00:53
1531/1701 mana at 9:49
Summary: 1530 mana gained in 8:56 with 3 conc opp accessories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEBHWRBTk8Y

[smatt]

Are you going to unnerf it?

Not likely, since it was never nerfed.



Are you going to allow us to deconstruct our useless items that we spent years crafting to get our ingredients back?
Not likely


Are you going to allow us to get our wasted essences back, that we grinded 20 shrouds each and gave up a +3 tome each to obtain?

LOL

[Eladrin]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.

[Gol]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.
So, what you're saying is...

Multiple Conc items do not proc independently of each other, and it would be a complete waste to have 2 identical Conc Opp items equipped.

[Borror0]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers.
Were those changes mentioned in any release notes?

[Chelsa]

In the future, it would be a good idea to mention such changes in the release notes.

Mention what? They never changed how the items worked but increased the proc rate. A benefit to the players but still only a minor adjustment.

[Samadhi]

So, what you're saying is...

Multiple Conc items do not proc independently of each other, and it would be a complete waste to have 2 identical Conc Opp items equipped.

That's the way it sounds...

which as an interesting sidenote, makes it sound like, possibly, a weapon stacking with an accessory would potentially be a bug.

Clarification would be awesome - I have piles of these things made ><

Thanks for finally stopping in though El :D

[Borror0]

Mention what? They never changed how the items worked but increased the proc rate. A benefit to the players but still only a minor adjustment.
Making an item more than four times more powerful is not "a minor adjustment."

[Chelsa]

Making an item more than four times more powerful is not "a minor adjustment."

For me it is minor, but I am sure you will all argue the subject to death. Should be fun to watch. :p

[Vhlad]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.

Thank you for the reply. I have 3 more questions, if you please:

#1
When (or before) piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, did he (or anyone else) also change the way these items stacked?

#2
Currently, Concordant Opposition guards on weapons stack with themselves. Will this be changed?

#3
The first 2x shroud guards of the same type crafted on 1 character were a weapon + accessory, as this could be done on a shorter timescale (it does not require a cleansing essence). When people saw "guard" effects from the weapon & accessory stack, they assumed (with the help of your first post in this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1605545&postcount=14)) that all crafted "guard" effects would stack. Since there has been no clear answer from the devs regarding the mechanics here for the past 2 years, are there any plans to offer item deconstruction for the people who made multiple accessory guards of the same type?

[Shade]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.

Good to see the dev words on this so ppl can stop with the silly testing that I and others already confirmed years ago.

Tho we estimated the increased procrate at 5%, so good to know it's actaully 4%.

[tihocan]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.
Thanks a lot for speaking up on this :)

So does this mean the weapon + accessory stacking that some people are seeing is either some very weird randomness quirk, or not WAI and thus subject to change?

[Chelsa]

Good to see the dev words on this so ppl can stop with the silly testing that I and others already confirmed years ago.

Tho we estimated the increased procrate at 5%, so good to know it's actaully 4%.

Hopefully people will go back and read some of those test if they have more questions.

[kaelis]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.




#2
Currently, Concordant Opposition guards on weapons stack with themselves. Will this be changed?



This. Will stacking of weapons with accessories (possibly other weapons(?)be changed?

[Shade]

Thanks a lot for speaking up on this :)

So does this mean the weapon + accessory stacking that some people are seeing is either some very weird randomness quirk, or not WAI and thus subject to change?

lol even the dev post isn't enough for you? Guess for some people it will never be enough. But hey. there your shroud ingredients.. Go for it lol. Be sure to diplo all your chests for better loot too.

Read the lower part of his post, it explains the flawed results many are getting in a nutshell quite accurately:

Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.

[Josh]

This is the kind of information that we should have from DAY ONE. Thank you E for speaking to this, but why does it take so long to get things clarified around here (things that should be explicitly stated IMO)?

[tihocan]

Read the lower part of his post, it explains the flawed results many are getting in a nutshell quite accurately:
It doesn't explain anything related to the issue of stacking. It only explains why people thought the HP regen % was higher than the SP %.

[Shade]

This is the kind of information that we should have from DAY ONE. Thank you E for speaking to this, but why does it take so long to get things clarified around here (things that should be explicitly stated IMO)?

Eladrins was too busy working out the stats for Half-Orcs :D

[Cyr]

I also want to know if the weapon + accessory stacking of CO (as it seems to be currently from all the testing data I have seen) is WAI or is it a bug subject to change?

[Eladrin]

I also want to know if the weapon + accessory stacking of CO (as it seems to be currently from all the testing data I have seen) is WAI or is it a bug subject to change?
Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.

[smatt]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.


Clarification.... Oh my... Glad I never made more than 1 per toon....

I suggest you play the "Duck, cover, rollup in a ball, and pray" move now :D

[Vhlad]

Clear, 720p resolution, video evidence of conc opp accessories not stacking:

Location: Deleras part 1, casual, 4 skeleton archers

First video:
No DR (shown in character window)
1 conc item (benefit shown in combat log when equipped)
6/1701 mana at 00:50
1550/1701 mana at 9:47
Summary: 1544 mana gained in 8:57 with 1 conc opp accessory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOcnX3Ss-24

Second video:
No DR (shown in character window)
3 conc items (benefit shown in combat log for each one when equipped)
1/1701 mana at 00:53
1531/1701 mana at 9:49
Summary: 1530 mana gained in 8:56 with 3 conc opp accessories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEBHWRBTk8Y


Evidence of 1 conc opp accessory stacking with 1 conc opp weapon

Location: Deleras part 1, casual, 4 skeleton archers

Third video:
No DR (shown in character window)
1 conc weapon +1 conc accessory (benefit shown in combat log for each one when equipped)
4/2499 mana at 00:46
2499/2499 mana at 7:54
Summary: 2495 mana gained in 7:08 with 1 conc opp accessory + 1 conc opp weapon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAMuXNWG88Y

The video is still processing. It should be available in 720p soon. I will be uploading a 4th test under the same conditions as the 3rd to demonstrate reproducibility.

Fourth video:
No DR (shown in character window)
1 conc weapon +1 conc accessory (benefit shown in combat log for each one when equipped)
14/2499 mana at 00:49
2493/2499 mana at 8:04
Summary: 2479 mana gained in 7:15 with 1 conc opp accessory + 1 conc opp weapon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FG_4OWlGeU


Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.
Really? Then why did you write this:

A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

You were silent on these mechanics for 2 years. Players have invested many hours and resources to craft such items on multiple characters during this time. Are you going to offer us shroud item deconstruction?

[DagazUlf]

You were silent on these mechanics for 2 years. Players have invested many hours and resources to craft such items on multiple characters during this time. Are you going to offer us shroud item deconstruction?

Yes, this. :mad:

[Eladrin]

Really? Then why did you write this:
Several posts later I point out that I wasn't sure about the stacking nature of it at the time.

[Vhlad]

Several posts later I point out that I wasn't sure about the stacking nature of it at the time.

If you wearn't sure, how do you expect us to be sure?

And once you learned what the stacking nature was supposed to be, why didn't you tell us?

Eladrin, please think about this from the players perspective. We didn't know how these crafted items were supposed to interact with each other. Two years later you're telling us that we threw our ingredients, our essences, our +3 tomes that we opted out of in order to take the essences, and our time and effort away by creating accessories that won't stack, and creating weapons that do stack, but aren't supposed to, and are subject to change.

It hurts Eladrin, it hurts.

[Wizzly_Bear]

If you wearn't sure, how do you expect us to be sure?

And once you learned what the stacking nature was supposed to be, why didn't you tell us?

Eladrin, please think about this from the players perspective. We didn't know how these crafted items were supposed to interact with each other. Two years later you're telling us that we threw our ingredients, our essences, our +3 tomes that we opted out of in order to take the essences, and our time and effort away by creating accessories that won't stack, and creating weapons that do stack, but aren't supposed to, and are subject to change.

It hurts Eladrin, it hurts.
/qft

Another stellar customer service moment brought to you by Turbine.

[Chelsa]

Original Post by Eladrin:


I'm actually not 100% certain on the stacking nature of Concordant Opposition, as Piloto created it, not me.

With a prototype system, we're likely to err on the side of caution at times, especially when it's related to something we normally don't do (like SP healing).

We'll be tracking all the information we receive from it, and are very likely to make adjustments to things we find too weak or excessively powerful.

Players should have erred on the side of caution.

I am certain we are about to see a rash of rants, threats and closed posts over Eladrins clarification.

And even if the devs agree with the concept of the misunderstanding, we would probably be months, if not a year away from a deconstruction mechanic. So, by the time you could deconstruct, you could have built new items or for that matter new items could have been released that replaced the duplicates.

[Mellkor]

What do you guys mean by stacking in this case?

Do you mean two items add thier percentage total together? IE: 4% + 4% = 8%?

OR

Does each item have the same independant chance of working?

two very different things. two items with an independant 4% chance to work does not equal an 8% chance. AND is not stacking.


If these items work as the second question implies, then they really dont stack, there is merely an illusion that they "stack".

-JR

[Vorn]

Thank you pioneers for figuring all this out for us before more of us created items that didn't stack. Thank you also to the pioneers back when the shroud first came out figuring out all the various recipes, with no expectation of deconstruction.

On a more positive note, if a person with multiple items finds that a better slot is served by a new item, at least they won't have to make a new CO, they'll have it in the bank.
:)

[Sirea]

So, by the time you could deconstruct, you could have built new items or for that matter new items could have been released that replaced the duplicates.

But you are still SOL on the larges that it cost to make the first item. If I can't wear multiple Con-Ops, I want my larges back. And those unused greensteels will sit in my bank until GS deconstruction comes out or the game shuts down, whichever comes first.

[Vhlad]

Players should have also have erred on the side caution.

Chelsa, that comment was in reference to the proc rate being low. i.e. the proc rate was first implemented at 1% to err on the side of caution. At least, that is how I interpreted it.

Nonetheless, the playerbase did err on the side of caution: we tested the stackability with 1 weapon & 1 accessory, and concluded, based on eladrins first comment and our testing, that this was intended behaviour. With no information telling us otherwise, and with this functioning in-game for 2 years, you're going to sit there and make it out to be the players fault that our weapons are wasted if/when the devs change it now?


And even if the devs agree with the concept of the misunderstanding, we would probably be months, if not a year away from a deconstruction mechanic. So, by the time you could deconstruct, you could have built new items or for that matter new items could have been released that replaced the duplicates.

I've been crafting shroud items for 2 years. I still need to craft more. Even without replacing all my useless non-stacking accessories, I still have additional crafting to do on multiple characters. Months or even 1 year from now I will still be farming shroud. If you're done with shroud, I would be happy to accept your larges any time. If you'd like to wait 1 year on the basis that 1 year from now your shroud items will be obsolete, that's fine too. Send me your larges in 1 year.

[Samadhi]

two very different things....
-JR

7.84% (the odds for your second example) is not that far off from 8% in the scheme of testing that we have been doing on this in this thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236478
...so focusing on that difference is not overly relevant IMO.

El stated quite clearly what he meant IMO.

Wanted to just ignore this post but to hopefully keep it from coming up from 23 different posters like it did in that thread...

[Hendrik]

But you are still SOL on the larges that it cost to make the first item. If I can't wear multiple Con-Ops, I want my larges back. And those unused greensteels will sit in my bank until GS deconstruction comes out or the game shuts down, whichever comes first.


I'm sure you will get deconstruction for your CO item's about the same time that the pioneers of the GS recipes get theirs.

[tihocan]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.
Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated (although it sucks for those who wasted many ingredients, and it would have been even better if the intended stacking behavior had been part of the effect description).

PS: for those with 1 CO weapon + accessory that are currently stacking... I suspect it's not a high priority fix on the devs' list, since it's been like that for 2+ years, and fixing it right now would probably cause more harm than anything. You can probably still enjoy the benefits of this bug for quite some time.

[Mellkor]

There is a big difference. The former is what most consider stacking, (addative). (like devotion item + enhancements for healing add thier percentages together, hence "stacking".

The later is not stacking at all. If it is as the later I dont think anything should change, if it is the former, It should change since they would be of the same source, and hence should not stack, just like anything else with the same bonus type.

-JR

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated (although it sucks for those who wasted many ingredients, and it would have been even better if the intended stacking behavior had been part of the effect description).

PS: for those with 1 CO weapon + accessory that are currently stacking... I suspect it's not a high priority fix on the devs' list, since it's been like that for 2+ years, and fixing it right now would probably cause more harm than anything. You can probably still enjoy the benefits of this bug for quite some time.

True.

But if you make more only one person to blame if/when there is a fix.

Been some time since I had to give some thought to it, but do you remember the basic stacking rules?

:o

[tihocan]

There is a big difference. The former is what most consider stacking, (addative). (like devotion item + enhancements for healing add thier percentages together, hence "stacking".

The later is not stacking at all. If it is as the later I dont think anything should change, if it is the former, It should change since they would be of the same source, and hence should not stack, just like anything else with the same bonus type.

-JR
Please let's not turn this thread into what stacking means, it's already been reshashed often enough. Feel free to move the discussion into that one (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236478) though, since it's already a big enough of a mess ;)

[Mellkor]

Yep it has. sorry I am reading the monster of the other post. LOL. looks like the debate rages on. The two questions I raise is really what needs to be addressed by the Devs to put this to rest, me thinks.

-JR

[tihocan]

Yep it has. sorry I am reading the monster of the other post. LOL. looks like the debate rages on. The two questions I raise is really what needs to be addressed by the Devs to put this to rest, me thinks.

-JR
Doesn't seem like there's anything left to be adressed by the devs. It's pretty clear that the intended behavior is for one CO item (or weapon) to behave the same as any combination of CO items/weapons.
Even if somehow Eladrin had misunderstood the original question, he posted after Vhlad's post demonstrating the current stacking behavior of weapon + item, and thus he would have said something if it contradicted his previous statements.

[Samadhi]

Doesn't seem like there's anything left to be adressed by the devs. It's pretty clear that the intended behavior is for one CO item (or weapon) to behave the same as any combination of CO items/weapons.
Even if somehow Eladrin had misunderstood the original question, he posted after Vhlad's post demonstrating the current stacking behavior of weapon + item, and thus he would have said something if it contradicted his previous statements.

Yes I am definitely appreciative of what I took to be quite straightforward of a response from El.

[Tarnoc]

Originally Posted by Eladrin
A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.


ok so its simple argue all you want about basic stacking rules ....WEN A DEV SAYS this

you expect thier ment to stack and that is the nature of these particular items

[Lifespawn]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.

Ok maybe i'm the only one that wants to make this thing cut and dry.

What i want to know is if wearing multiple items does it work like this.

get hit once

Guard 1 rolls d100 rolls a 90 no proc
Guard 2 rolls d100 rolls 45 no proc
Guard 3 rolls d100 rolls 3 conc procs.

Or does it work like this

Get hit once

Guard 1 rolls 90 no proc
Guard 2 no roll because only one gets a chance to proc
Guard 3 no roll because first one did not proc

i understand you can't get 2 procs at the same time i just want this clarified

[smatt]

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated (although it sucks for those who wasted many ingredients, and it would have been even better if the intended stacking behavior had been part of the effect description).

PS: for those with 1 CO weapon + accessory that are currently stacking... I suspect it's not a high priority fix on the devs' list, since it's been like that for 2+ years, and fixing it right now would probably cause more harm than anything. You can probably still enjoy the benefits of this bug for quite some time.


I agree... IF we had better clarifications from the beggining on such items.... Then it would save a lot fo hearbreak for a lot of players. Latest example... The ToD sets, we'v enever gotten anykind of real clarification of what they're suppossed to do, what stacks with what, what the "Indended" effects really are.... Without knowing what the intended effects are, how can we bug report on the them correctly? We can't..... And so another mess that could easily been avoided with just a bit of time spent on clarifcations of intended effects by the person who actually coded them. I understand why say in the first month when people are still working recipees etc, why they might stay mum.... But as with the Shroud stuff, it's 2 1/2 years now, and we're still in the dark.... And now a new furer has been raised :rolleyes: Players spend dozens if not 100's of hours doing this stuff.... It's not nice to kick them in the balls becasue someone didn't bother to take an hour to clarify how things are SUPPOSSED to work.

Perhaps they should consider this.... Hopefully, they will.... More clarifications throughout the game would be nice... More WAI's would be nice....

I never bothered to put more than 1 Conc/Opp on my toons. As the tsting was all over the map and I was never 100% sure they worked independently.... If you're not sure, don't do it..... And if you do and it doesn't work out don't cry about it.. It's on you... No where have I ever seen a Dev say "Yes, they stack, they're suppossed to stack" Eladrin's posts in this thread show that...

[tihocan]

What i want to know is if wearing multiple items does it work like this.
If you wear multiple items it's the exact same thing as if you were wearing a single item.
If you wear item + weapon(s) there is some stacking occurring, but it's not intended.
Check Vhlad's posts in this thread and Eladrin's posts if you want confirmation.

[tihocan]

Originally Posted by Eladrin
A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.


ok so its simple argue all you want about basic stacking rules ....WEN A DEV SAYS this

you expect thier ment to stack and that is the nature of these particular items
And again, if you read further in the same thread where he posted this, he added a few posts later that he wasn't sure whether they stacked or not.

[Wizzly_Bear]

/qft

Another stellar customer service moment brought to you by Turbine.
Neg rep me all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the customer service here blows.

[Turial]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.

Thanks for clearing that up Eladrin.

[Lifespawn]

If you wear multiple items it's the exact same thing as if you were wearing a single item.
If you wear item + weapon(s) there is some stacking occurring, but it's not intended.
Check Vhlad's posts in this thread and Eladrin's posts if you want confirmation.

i understand what vhlad posted and watched the videos i want a dev post so i have something to quote if it comes up again.

[Tarnoc]

And again, if you read further in the same thread where he posted this, he added a few posts later that he wasn't sure whether they stacked or not.

ok and then nowere does he say they dont until we find out they do stack....he shoulda said he didnt know if they do but if they do it wont be working as intended

[tihocan]

i understand what vhlad posted and watched the videos i want a dev post so i have something to quote if it comes up again.
You have dev posts in this thread, they are quite explicit.

[Lifespawn]

You have dev posts in this thread, they are quite explicit.

ya thats why people are still asking about it and the fact that eladrin didn't know a weapon and a guard stacked but ya your right very explicit.

[Cetus]

Ok maybe i'm the only one that wants to make this thing cut and dry.

What i want to know is if wearing multiple items does it work like this.

get hit once

Guard 1 rolls d100 rolls a 90 no proc
Guard 2 rolls d100 rolls 45 no proc
Guard 3 rolls d100 rolls 3 conc procs.

Or does it work like this

Get hit once

Guard 1 rolls 90 no proc
Guard 2 no roll because only one gets a chance to proc
Guard 3 no roll because first one did not proc

i understand you can't get 2 procs at the same time i just want this clarified

I would like this clarified very much myself

If you have 3 different shroud items each bearing a disintegration guard for example, then EACH guard should have a proc roll INDEPENDANT of the presence of other identical guards.

This will be quite upsetting if one guard masks the proc rates of other identical guards.

[tihocan]

I would like this clarified very much myself

If you have 3 different shroud items each bearing a disintegration guard for example, then EACH guard should have a proc roll INDEPENDANT of the presence of other identical guards.

This will be quite upsetting if one guard masks the proc rates of other identical guards.
Then it is quite upsetting, because that's how it works (or at least is supposed to work, I don't remember anyone testing it explicitely on disintegration guard).

[sephiroth1084]

Several posts later I point out that I wasn't sure about the stacking nature of it at the time.


If you wearn't sure, how do you expect us to be sure?

And once you learned what the stacking nature was supposed to be, why didn't you tell us?

Eladrin, please think about this from the players perspective. We didn't know how these crafted items were supposed to interact with each other. Two years later you're telling us that we threw our ingredients, our essences, our +3 tomes that we opted out of in order to take the essences, and our time and effort away by creating accessories that won't stack, and creating weapons that do stack, but aren't supposed to, and are subject to change.

It hurts Eladrin, it hurts.
Eladrin, any chance of letting us know whether you folks are considering introducing a greensteel deconstruction system of some kind? Even if it is a remote possibility at this time?

[Cetus]

Great.

[Roman]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.

Not what we wanted to hear, but thank you for posting a response nonetheless.

[Monkey_Archer]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.

That would be extremely sad considering people have already wasted a very large number of ingredients on multiple useless accessories...
Perhaps if weapons must be nerfed, you could change it to proc when YOU hit an enemy instead of being a guard effect?

[Cetus]

I think you guys are killing this product, the countless grinds to play that rediculous lottery to set up DT armor to ur choosing, then find out that the effects you may have acquired on them do nothing in accordance with a similar third tier effect on a different piece of equipment.

Or cleansing stones, which have been prioritized over tomes to attain the guards we sought after such as multiple CO items.

Larges are another bag of worms.

How is it overpowered to have multiple damage guards proc? Every shroud item takes up a gear slot- a worthy compensation.

Multiple Concordant oppositions are overpowered? Lower the proc rate of each individual item enough to make it powerful, but not massively powerful (if thats how you saw it)- although putting 4 or 5 shroud items on ur character SHOULD bear some weight- because you are sacrificing 5 GEAR SLOTS for them.

All in all- to make our time spent acquiring these items accounted for- make like guards stack, implement a disassembly mechanism for shroud items- and allow us to respec our DT armor in a way where I don't immediately think of "annoying lottery" when I think of the refuge.

'nuff said.

[Twerpp]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is "potentially" subject to change.


LOL. The correct place to get more SP is DDO Store. Not grinding years and months and days for gear. Noobs.

Potentially. Hehe. I bet they "potentially" fix this a lot faster than we "potentially" see Druids, Half-Orcs, and other longstanding bugs like oh say, ladders that rubberband for the last 4 years.

[Borror0]

By the way, I added Concordant Opposition to my List of Vague and Incorrect Descriptions (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=179128). I'll have to add all the other green Steel effects, too, while I'm at it. =/

*cough* It's good to clarify on the forums; it's even better to clarify the description itself. *cough*

[ddoer]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

so is Torc suppose to stack with Concordant Opposition? please confirm it is not a bug.

and what's the exact proc rate of Torc?

[Cetus]

The torc is not a guard- it is raid equipment that better stack with OTHER "raid" equipment.

[Samadhi]

You have dev posts in this thread, they are quite explicit.

That's what I thought as well. I am not seeing any further confusion beyond the fact that the reality kind of sucks for many many folks.

[Borror0]

The torc is not a guard- it is raid equipment that better stack with OTHER "raid" equipment.
Torc's Transform Kinetic Energy is a guard. It's just not the same kind of guard (Concordant Opposition vs. Transform Kinetic Energy) and therefore stacks with Concordant Opposition. The reason that Concordant Opposition does not stack with itself is a technical limitation: notice how no effect in the game stacks with itself, even when it should.

[Pyromaniac]

It definitely sucks that these don't stack, however I appreciate a dev response that is a clear and full answer to the questions.

For those upset, think of it this way:
-We never got deconstruction for those making less effective GS such as shortswords back in the day
-When swing speeds on weapons were changed we never got deconstruction
-When epic tokens were stolen from our inventories we never got them back
-When major changes have made, breaking characters regularly, we never got compensation
-When items got lost in the mail...you guessed it....we never got compensated
-When there is downtime and the game is unplayable, there's no compensation

So this isn't exactly a suprising development that there isn't any compensation coming. They are definitely pretty consistent in that regard. I'm not saying its a great thing for customer retention and service, or that I think its a good idea period - but they're consistent about it.

[Riorik]

Guard effects should not stack with themselves, so it would be classified as a bug that is potentially subject to change.

Wouldn't this mean that it's possible it's stacking *right now* but it's a bug if it is.


So what's the final word on all this? 1xTorc + 1xConc is useful -- more items is either a waste or soon to be a waste?

[Vhlad]

-We never got deconstruction for those making less effective GS such as shortswords back in the day

1. Those people knew they were being pioneers, and willing guinea pigs.
2. Those people did not make TWELVE (or more!) dual shard greensteels.
3. These were commonly guild efforts.
4. Those people now have ML 8 upgraded greensteel weapons to show for their work; a super nice twink benefit for mass TRing.
5. Having a less effective GS is better than having a GS that does nothing.

And finally,

6.
There's a pretty big difference between someone who experiments on finding new recipes for a couple months and crafts 1-2 not so good greensteels each to pioneer recipes, VS. someone who spends 2.5 years converting all effort, all currency, all their wealth into obtaining large scales/stones to create 12+ dual shard greensteels under the expectation that they are not being a guinea pig or pioneering anything.

Dear devs,
Was this intentionally setup from the beginning to screw power gamers?

From a min/max perspective, you would know that if someone had a choice between 1 guard that does 620 damage 2% of the time OR 1 guard that does 240 damage 4% of the time, they're going to pick the 620 damage guard (12.4 vs 9.6). You had to have known that players would pick the most optimal guards from your list and stick to them. By contributing to and allowing the widespread belief that these guards stacked to continue for 2+ years, you must have expected that people would create multiples of what they determined to be the best type. When designing the shroud crafting system, was it your intent from the start to totally **** over anyone who adhered to the path of least resistance? Did someone decide that this was the best way to keep longtime players in the skinner box, and is this person aware that they are an *******? You can tell them they're wrong, or at least reckless, by the way. When you take our sense of accomplishment away we're a lot less likely to willingly crawl back into your skinner box for mental escape again, because you have severed the connection between effort and reward.

[Samadhi]

Wouldn't this mean that it's possible it's stacking *right now* but it's a bug if it is.


So what's the final word on all this? 1xTorc + 1xConc is useful -- more items is either a waste or soon to be a waste?

My "take" on the final word.

Torc good to go.

Only 1 C/O on an accessory, anymore than that is useless.

C/O on weapon in combination with an accessory is currently working, but is considered a bug and could be changed at any time.

[soupertc]

There's a pretty big difference between someone who experiments on finding new recipes for a couple months and crafts 1-2 not so good greensteels each to pioneer recipes, VS. someone who spends 2.5 years converting all effort, all currency, all their wealth into obtaining large scales/stones to create 12+ dual shard greensteels under the expectation that they are not being a guinea pig or pioneering anything.

Dear devs,
Was this intentionally setup from the beginning to screw power gamers?

From a min/max perspective, you would know that if someone had a choice between 1 guard that does 620 damage 2% of the time OR 1 guard that does 240 damage 4% of the time, they're going to pick the 620 damage guard (12.4 vs 9.6). You had to have known that players would pick the most optimal guards from your list and stick to them. By contributing to and allowing the widespread belief that these guards stacked to continue for 2+ years, you must have expected that people would create multiples of what they determined to be the best type. When designing the shroud crafting system, was it your intent from the start to totally **** over anyone who adhered to the path of least resistance? Did someone decide that this was the best way to keep longtime players in the skinner box, and is this person aware that they are an *******? You can tell them they're wrong, or at least reckless, by the way. When you take our sense of accomplishment away we're a lot less likely to willingly crawl back into your skinner box for mental escape again, because you have severed the connection between effort and reward.


YOU decided to take a gamble hoping for a big payoff.....they didn't lead ya to the table. It sucks for ya....but can't say I feel for ya since ya did it to yourself really.

[smatt]

1. Those people knew they were being pioneers, and willing guinea pigs.
2. Those people did not make TWELVE (or more!) dual shard greensteels.
3. These were commonly guild efforts.
4. Those people now have ML 8 upgraded greensteel weapons to show for their work; a super nice twink benefit for mass TRing.
5. Having a less effective GS is better than having a GS that does nothing.

And finally,

6.
There's a pretty big difference between someone who experiments on finding new recipes for a couple months and crafts 1-2 not so good greensteels each to pioneer recipes, VS. someone who spends 2.5 years converting all effort, all currency, all their wealth into obtaining large scales/stones to create 12+ dual shard greensteels under the expectation that they are not being a guinea pig or pioneering anything.

Dear devs,
Was this intentionally setup from the beginning to screw power gamers?

From a min/max perspective, you would know that if someone had a choice between 1 guard that does 620 damage 2% of the time OR 1 guard that does 240 damage 4% of the time, they're going to pick the 620 damage guard (12.4 vs 9.6). You had to have known that players would pick the most optimal guards from your list and stick to them. By contributing to and allowing the widespread belief that these guards stacked to continue for 2+ years, you must have expected that people would create multiples of what they determined to be the best type. When designing the shroud crafting system, was it your intent from the start to totally **** over anyone who adhered to the path of least resistance? Did someone decide that this was the best way to keep longtime players in the skinner box, and is this person aware that they are an *******? You can tell them they're wrong, or at least reckless, by the way. When you take our sense of accomplishment away we're a lot less likely to willingly crawl back into your skinner box for mental escape again, because you have severed the connection between effort and reward.

Uggggg, I'm sure they lead all those uber smart power gamers to intentionally waste their ingredients... :rolleyes: No really, they did, I swear... The testing was all over the map, I thought for a very long time that conc- opps didn't stack, then saw a little evidence that they did, but never took the leap..... Perhaps they have at various times, perhaps it's an non-persitant bug. Who knows.. I wish they would've been clearer on the whole thing though, no doubt.... It would save a whole bunch of soiled diapers .

I never crafted mroe than 1 conc- opp per toon.. Why? Because I was never sure they stacked, and I'm smart enough to not waste 24 larges on something I'm not sure about.... Unless, I was in the testing phase.... Then it is what it is... As for the other guards..... People create guards for uses in specific situations, sure there are som 1 size fits all ones.. But SMART players might create a few different ones for different situations.. I'm just sayin' ... There was the recent video the guy posted, you know the gay pirate dude. It seemed to show stacking... But who knows...

The bigger question is, are any of these self-prescribed uber-vets ever going to learn a lesson. Or are they going to keep leaping off the bridge because their buddys do it and then cry when they go splat........

Again it was never IMPLIED that these items would stack.... It was just that the rumour spread and a whole lot of people took the leap of faith in rumour... And BTW I have a ton of GS items sitting in various banks... Not being used. Big frigan deal, most of us do, the game changes, things that were useful become worthless at least for a time..... :cool:

In the end hopefully they try and be a bit more open and communicate a bit more on what the "Intended" functions of crafted items are. It would go a long way to not causign a bunch of tears, wated player game time, AND help the player base properly bug report things that maynot be functioning properly. if we as players don't knwo what the intended fucntion is, how can we report it...

[tihocan]

Again it was never IMPLIED that these items would stack.... It was just that the rumour spread and a whole lot of people took the leap of faith in rumour...
Except some actually stack.

[smatt]

Except some actually stack. Well yes, I think I said that.. But does anybody realylyknow for sure what the intended implementation is? That's the crux of the issue.... Again, it's a lack of clear communication from Turbine, which has been an issue from day one. It's all over the map when you do get communication from them. Part of it I think is on their side no doubt. But also part of it has to do with how they're treated here... And how when they do take the time to say something it becomes 4,000 questions time, usually going off the deep end into some other completely unrelated subject. The Devs don't have 10's of hours per week or more to play 4,000 questions with each person, some of which are too lazy to even check to see if the answers are already out there. or those people who have a hard time understanding things like "Yes" means "Yes" :cool:

But around this subject, as well as the rest of the various crafting issues, as in ToD sets... If the Devs responsible for those items would spend say a couple of hours writing up a list of the intended effects of each of the itmes and whether or not they're currently WAI, it would save a TON of crying, ****ing, moaning, game time, heart-ache, ****ed off players, insults, and the like... It really couldn't take them all that long to do that.... All the stuff has been out, the dont' ahve to hide any secrets.... THAT would save them oh so much time and hate in the long run.... I simply can't understand why it's so hard for them to do such a simple and obvious task...

[Sirea]

LOL. The correct place to get more SP is DDO Store. Not grinding years and months and days for gear. Noobs.

It does seem to be where we're headed, doesn't it.

Nerfing things to make more profit. Pretty slimy if you ask me.

[Vhlad]

The testing was all over the map

Wrong. Testing showed clear stacking from day 1. It was general widespread consensus that these items stacked, ever since the very first testing involving 1 weapon and 1 accessory. This was the first testing done because it did not require a cleansing essence.


I never crafted mroe than 1 conc- opp per toon.. Why? Because I was never sure they stacked

If you crafted 1 weapon and 1 accessory and discovered for yourself that they stacked 2+ years ago, with no indication that this was not intended for the last 2+ years, would you have crafted more between then and now?

You try to make it seem like it's the players fault for taking a risk. This is false. There was no perceived risk in crafting because we knew there was stacking between weapons and accessories, and there was no indication that this was not intended.


The bigger question is, are any of these self-prescribed uber-vets ever going to learn a lesson.

Depending on what happens, yeah. If the link between effort and reward is severed/discarded, the lessen learned may be to not waste their ****ing time playing DDO.


Again it was never IMPLIED that these items would stack....
Wrong. This (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1605545&postcount=14) implies quite clearly that the items could stack. He claims later to be unsure of the particular stacking nature, but that first comment gives us no reason to believe that it's not working as intended if we discover stacking.


In the end hopefully they try and be a bit more open and communicate a bit more on what the "Intended" functions of crafted items are. It would go a long way to not causign a bunch of tears, wated player game time, AND help the player base properly bug report things that maynot be functioning properly. if we as players don't knwo what the intended fucntion is, how can we report it...

More communication, and accurate communication, would be great. I think we can all agree on this. Valuing the efforts of players would be nice too. It is not fun to play a MMO where the developers are willing to throw your work away and offer no recompense.

[Gnorbert]

My "take" on the final word.

Only 1 C/O on an accessory, anymore than that is useless.

C/O on weapon in combination with an accessory is currently working, but is considered a bug and could be changed at any time.

On the first page of this thread there is a post from Eladrin in response to the suggestion that the proc rate be increased from 1% to 5%.


A 5% proc rate would be extremely imbalancing if you wore eight of them.

It's quite clear from this and from other testing in another thread on the forum that Con Opp on multiple items does and should stack.

[Ota]

...

so you have one big huge argument saying you are so smart that you never do anything unless the devs explicitly say thats how its supposed to be? how great for you many of us tested things ourselves saw it worked and built accordingly for other characters

[smatt]

Wrong. Testing showed clear stacking from day 1. It was general widespread consensus that these items stacked, ever since the very first testing involving 1 weapon and 1 accessory. This was the first testing done because it did not require a cleansing essence. I would say nay, the testing was never 100% sure of anything.... It was all over the map, and even some of those that thought that more tha 1 item had individual proc rates (stacking is the wrong term)Many of them payed enough attentio to what the Devs said and didn't make all thsoe worthless items, and or realized that if they did, there' s achance at some point they may become worthless in the future... I might add that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING int his game no matt erhow hard you worked for it, or how much you paid for it may at sometime become worthless...




If you crafted 1 weapon and 1 accessory and discovered for yourself that they stacked 2+ years ago, with no indication that this was not intended for the last 2+ years, would you have crafted more between then and now? Taht wold depend on the particualr build.. If I had and they changed it.. I'd be a bit miffed and then move on.. Jsut as I ahve with every other change that's come along...


You try to make it seem like it's the players fault for taking a risk. This is false. There was no perceived risk in crafting because we knew there was stacking between weapons and accessories, and there was no indication that this was not intended. No it's the players fault for not learning that this game changes constantly.. And that THAT is the only constant.. That the game just as any other MMO is built around contsant grind... It's all aobut game hours, and how many of htose a company can get out of players for their investment for each content update.




Depending on what happens, yeah. If the link between effort and reward is severed/discarded, the lessen learned may be to not waste their ****ing time playing DDO. There's 1,000's of game sout there.. I encourage anybody who gets bored or ****ed off at DDO to try others....



Wrong. This (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1605545&postcount=14) implies quite clearly that the items could stack. He claims later to be unsure of the particular stacking nature, but that first comment gives us no reason to believe that it's not working as intended if we discover stacking. Again, we get into the unsure thing.. Nothing implies that it should for sure work at the same time... It's too bad it was left at that... But I persoanlyl took that statement as a wrning.. Too bad others aren't as thoughtful and careful ;)




More communication, and accurate communication, would be great. I think we can all agree on this. Valuing the efforts of players would be nice too. It is not fun to play a MMO where the developers are willing to throw your work away and offer no recompense.

They owe no recompense, that's the thing that really irks me.. The game has always changed and will in the future... I've worked hard just as everybody else for various items inthe game that at some point became useless, either because I wasusing in a way that wasn't intended (knowingly) or by game design, or simply because it was old. I simply don't understand how players, longtime ones think things will suddenly change and that a game company such as Turbine give them a cookie all the time. It's there in the writing.... In the EULA.... It's always been there, it's always been like this and always will be like this...

Hopefully, they will be a bit mroe ofrthcoming in the future onsuch things... It ws said recently that they had no plans for deconstruction, with the returnign of ingredients used in crafting of greensteel. Whether it stays like that or not who knows, they sia dthey'd never rework the Vons.... They say lots of thigns that change... It's a game a fluild game...... Things change.. Live with it..... Move on if it's so bad... B

[smatt]

I would liek to add... That I do feel fo rthe peopel who crafted items that may not work now or in the future in the ways they though they would..... It does suck...

[Talcyndl]

someone who spends 2.5 years converting all effort, all currency, all their wealth into obtaining large scales/stones to create 12+ dual shard greensteels under the expectation that they are not being a guinea pig or pioneering anything.


This illustrates the risk of taking a min/max (powergaming, whatever term you want to apply to the specific effort) in any MMO. The designers will always try and balance ("fix" in their minds) a particular mechanic when they decide it is "overpowered."

And it will suck for the players that invested the time. But it's a pretty much inherent and universal risk.

Sorry if you spent that time and effort in this case.

[Samadhi]

I really don't buy the whole "this only hurts power gamers" argument that seems to be coming up. This doesn't hurt power gamers that much at all. You know how long it will take me to remake my C/O's into something different? About as long as it takes me to decide what I want to make instead. It is an inconvenience; a bump in the road.

The casual player, OTOH, who doesn't have 50+ scales sitting around, is the one that is just screwed.

[Talcyndl]

I really don't buy the whole "this only hurts power gamers" argument that seems to be coming up. This doesn't hurt power gamers that much at all. You know how long it will take me to remake my C/O's into something different? About as long as it takes me to decide what I want to make instead. It is an inconvenience; a bump in the road.

The casual player, OTOH, who doesn't have 50+ scales sitting around, is the one that is just screwed.

I'm not sure many casual gamers (at least as I'd define the term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)) have made themselves multiple concordant opposition items.

[Sirea]

I really don't buy the whole "this only hurts power gamers" argument that seems to be coming up. This doesn't hurt power gamers that much at all. You know how long it will take me to remake my C/O's into something different? About as long as it takes me to decide what I want to make instead. It is an inconvenience; a bump in the road.

The casual player, OTOH, who doesn't have 50+ scales sitting around, is the one that is just screwed.

It hurts the power-gamers who are also craftaholics like myself, who always have a character lined up for a dual-shard something or other as soon as I get 5 scales and 5-6 stones :o

But at least I run my fair share of Shrouds so it takes maybe 2-3 weeks to come up with the ingredients. And Sohryu's really the only one that's effected by all of this, and I needed to recraft her other Con-Op anyway because of gear swaps.

That doesn't stop me from thinking that, while they shouldn't stack in the traditional sense, that they should at least all get their own roll to proc. Lower the proc rate to balance it if you must, but don't tell people that they've flushed away 100s of larges for nothing.

[mediocresurgeon]

If concordant opposition stacking has been classified as a bug after 2 years, with NO DEV COMMENTS ABOUT IT, I demand a refund.

After all, it's only the single most expensive shroud item in the game. Not to mention issues with Essences of Cleansing.

Give us greensteel deconstruction or don't nerf conc opp.

[Wizzly_Bear]

/qft

Another stellar customer service moment brought to you by Turbine.


Neg rep me all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the customer service here blows.
Its entertaining to watch the ping pong match between pos and neg rep I'm getting for these two posts. Keep it up :D

[smatt]

Neg rep me all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the customer service here blows.

Hey, at least they're consistant on something... It's always sucked.... That goes for in game as well as account.... Sometimes I think I might have better luck with a cable companies CS.... :eek: And THAT is saying something...

I've put in about 10 or 12 tickets in over 3 1/2 years... 3 or 4 were handled quikly, and were very successful, 3 or 4 were ignored and closed while I waited for a long long long time.... And a couple were checked into and I got the "Sorry, Is there anything else I can't do for you today" line....


In game tickets simply aren't worth the frustration and or time.... It may very well be intentional :cool:

[Bloodhaven]

yumm popcorn

[Khroc]

No changes have been made to Concordant Opposition items since Piloto increased the proc rate from 1% to 4%, and increased the amount of spell points granted when it triggers. (Actions that were taken partially in response to this very thread.)

As a generally applicable rule, "guard" effects do not stack with themselves.
Temporary Hit Point guards typically trigger On Successful Hit, while Spell Point guards trigger On Damage, which explains the differences seen in proc rates.

So if I am wearing 6 Dust guards on my barbarian.. there is not an increased chance for them to go off? If i am wearing one guard, it should be the same as if i was wearing 6 Dust guards? I know they cant go off on the same hit but isnt there a better chance of one of the guards going off if you have multiples of the same one? Not that they would proc at the same time but with each hit there is a better chance of one the guards going off? So if the proc rate is 2% per guard, one of the guards should proc 12% of the time? pls clarify...

[mediocresurgeon]

So if I am wearing 6 Dust guards on my barbarian.. there is not an increased chance for them to go off? If i am wearing one guard, it should be the same as if i was wearing 6 Dust guards? I know they cant go off on the same hit but isnt there a better chance of one of the guards going off if you have multiples of the same one? Not that they would proc at the same time but with each hit there is a better chance of one the guards going off? So if the proc rate is 2% per guard, one of the guards should proc 12% of the time? pls clarify...

Hypothetical situation:

You are wearing 6 Concordant Opposition items. Each one has an individual 4% chance to proc.

This means that on 21% of incoming hits, any one of your concordant opposition items will proc (1- (0.96^6)).

However, people who have multiple Disintegration items, put different combinations of them on, and tested the proc rates over thousands of attacks have concluded that they do not each have an individual chance to proc. Not that the Devs have ever commented on such mechanics... Instead, they made people grind The Shroud 100's of times before telling them that it was never intended to work that way.


Eladrin:
Since I smell an incoming nerf (and not one that players approve of!), please consider making it so that a single concordant opposition weapon will stack with a single concordant opposition accessory. Multiple ConcOpp weapons will not have to stack with each other, and multiple ConcOpp accessories will not have to stack with each other. For the sake of argument, they players will not feel quite as p#&*ed off about this nerf we know is coming, because at least some of their items will continue to stack. (Ideally, though, you should leave ConcOpp as-is and go spend Dev time on more important things than nerfing the most expensive Shroud item in the game.)

Also, if Holy.Avenger's video of "Juggles" makes you worried, consider that:
a) Juggles was alone in an explorer zone, and was subject to dungeon scaling
b) The Vale is no longer "endgame" content
c) 99.99% of characters do not and never will have as much greensteel as Juggles does
d) Holy.Avenger specifically chose the Vale to look impressive (monster have fast attack speeds, low damage, hit for glancing blows, and teleport around obstacles with no rubber-banding).

I suggest you test this sort of equipment setup in Epic and see how quickly you die, before you go and nerf it.

[nessguy]

Hypothetical situation:

You are wearing 6 Concordant Opposition items. Each one has an individual 4% chance to proc.

This means that on 21% of incoming hits, any one of your concordant opposition items will proc (1- (0.96^6)).

However, people who have multiple Disintegration items, put different combinations of them on, and tested the proc rates over thousands of attacks have concluded that they do not each have an individual chance to proc. Not that the Devs have ever commented on such mechanics... Instead, they made people grind The Shroud 100's of times before telling them that it was never intended to work that way.


Eladrin:
Since I smell an incoming nerf (and not one that players approve of!), please consider making it so that a single concordant opposition weapon will stack with a single concordant opposition accessory. Multiple ConcOpp weapons will not have to stack with each other, and multiple ConcOpp accessories will not have to stack with each other. For the sake of argument, they players will not feel quite as p#&*ed off about this nerf we know is coming, because at least some of their items will continue to stack. (Ideally, though, you should leave ConcOpp as-is and go spend Dev time on more important things than nerfing the most expensive Shroud item in the game.)

Also, if Holy.Avenger's video of "Juggles" makes you worried, consider that:
a) Juggles was alone in an explorer zone, and was subject to dungeon scaling
b) The Vale is no longer "endgame" content
c) 99.99% of characters do not and never will have as much greensteel as Juggles does
d) Holy.Avenger specifically chose the Vale to look impressive (monster have fast attack speeds, low damage, hit for glancing blows, and teleport around obstacles with no rubber-banding).

I suggest you test this sort of equipment setup in Epic and see how quickly you die, before you go and nerf it.

hydro has my vote.
/Signed

[Ormindo]

Wait, I'm lost. The "ticking" chance is still 1% ?