Arcane Archer Bias

[RazBobka]

Please pardon me if this has been brought up before but why can't the Arcane Archer enhancement create bolts? Crossbows are bows too, aren't they? They are lumped together in the "Ranged" category everywhere else why not here? In fact, the requierments themselves call for "Ranged" weapon ability.

I can see why multishot is bow specific, it just makes more sense to have it bow only (unless you want to fix that as well, I wouldn't mind, really). Ammo on the other hand is different. I say we need Arcane Bolts!! I could also do with a quiver. That should be easy, right? :)

[Impaqt]

/Signed!

Had a guildy last night realize that he could not make bolts for his Repeater build and was quite disturbed.

[Aesop]

I find this request reasonable

/signed

Aesop

[JFeenstra]

mmm...multi-shotting heavy repeater

did someone order insane dps?

and on that note, think of the physical characteristics of a crossbow, it's not possible to load 2/3/4 bolts into one at the same time and have it fire accurately, while with a regular bow it's incredibly more possible

[Magus_d]

It might just be wordplay, but I always thought of an archer as someone who uses bows, not crossbows.

[QuantumFX]

It's because it's based off of the Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) Prestige class. You'll notice the prereqs for are for bows and the ability is limited to arrows there.

And No crossbows are not bows. There's signifigant differences between bolts and arrows. LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow)

[Impaqt]

It's because it's based off of the Arcane Archer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm) Prestige class. You'll notice the prereqs for are for bows and the ability is limited to arrows there.

And No crossbows are not bows. There's signifigant differences between bolts and arrows. LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow)


First, If ya really wanna go by the PnP Desription, the Enhancment shouldnt be able to be taken by ANYONE since we dont have Weapon Focus Longbow/Shortbow.

Crossbows ARE bows.. Hence the "Bow" in the name

I fail to se the "Significant difference between bolts and arrows.... Both Low base damage Projectiles that do Piercing damage.

[QuantumFX]

First, If ya really wanna go by the PnP Desription, the Enhancment shouldnt be able to be taken by ANYONE since we dont have Weapon Focus Longbow/Shortbow.

Crossbows ARE bows.. Hence the "Bow" in the name

I fail to se the "Significant difference between bolts and arrows.... Both Low base damage Projectiles that do Piercing damage.

You obviously didn't bother to go look at the Wiki page or the d20 SRD so I won't bother to argue with your ignorance. Good day.

[Yaga_Nub]

First, If ya really wanna go by the PnP Desription, the Enhancment shouldnt be able to be taken by ANYONE since we dont have Weapon Focus Longbow/Shortbow.

Crossbows ARE bows.. Hence the "Bow" in the name

I fail to se the "Significant difference between bolts and arrows.... Both Low base damage Projectiles that do Piercing damage.

Shortbow damage d6
Longbow damage d8

Light Crossbow damage d8
Heavy Crossbow damage d10

How is that low compared to a:

Dagger d4
Light Pick d4
Shortsword d6
Rapier d6
etc.
etc.

[Impaqt]

You obviously didn't bother to go look at the Wiki page or the d20 SRD so I won't bother to argue with your ignorance. Good day.

Yes, I did, our "Arcane Archer" is nothng like the official presitge class. There are more diferences than similarities for sure.

AS far as the "Low Base Damage" before you start calling me out, Consider Rate of Fire please..... a Light Pick does Significantly more DPS BASE than ANY bow. Bows dont come close until you start getting feats to boost em.

[paintedman]

elf, more or less same feats, and DDO translated progression. Bottom line is that AA is an elf only prestige line, and he/she can only imbue arrows of a non magical nature. So short answer is "because of the prestige class".

On the other side of the coin, the devs really should have created the prestige classes as actual levels rather than enhanments. Really would have cleared up the mess we are having now

/not signed

-paintedman

[Impaqt]

elf, more or less same feats, and DDO translated progression. Bottom line is that AA is an elf only prestige line, and he/she can only imbue arrows of a non magical nature. So short answer is "because of the prestige class".

On the other side of the coin, the devs really should have created the prestige classes as actual levels rather than enhanments. Really would have cleared up the mess we are having now

/not signed

-paintedman

Uh, Its not even RR: Elf in DDO.........

[paintedman]

you are correct, but it is a small point as it is ranger or elf only. Not sure if you are trying to point out a small point or just correct me. Either are not a very good argument, at least to me. I don't mind being wrong, I just mind you trying to validate your point at my expense with something that is pretty insubstantial.

-paintedman

[Invalid_86]

Yes, I did, our "Arcane Archer" is nothng like the official presitge class. There are more diferences than similarities for sure.

AS far as the "Low Base Damage" before you start calling me out, Consider Rate of Fire please..... a Light Pick does Significantly more DPS BASE than ANY bow. Bows dont come close until you start getting feats to boost em.

Light picks do more damage because in DDO ranged rate of fire is messed up- as is, technically, melee attack speed. Bows shoot too slow, melee attacks too fast.

Arcane archer is specifically a bow using class. There are a few specific weapon prestige classes floating around in DnD, this is one of them. An archer is someone armed with a bow, a crossbowman is someone armed with a crossbow. They are two very different weapons in terms of use, and arrows and quarrels are not interchangeable.

Now don't get me started on "prestige class enhancements" and how they relate to DnD.

One other final thought. In the long run a bow is supposed to shoot faster than repeaters. Rapid reload also should not apply to them. There really is not much of an advantage to being a repeater expert except in a few rare situations.


On the other side of the coin, the devs really should have created the prestige classes as actual levels rather than enhanments. Really would have cleared up the mess we are having now


What he said!

With very few exceptions no prestige class is open to only one class. 3.5 went out of the way to add options like this, not rely on class based restrictions.

[transtemporal]

why can't the Arcane Archer enhancement create bolts? Crossbows are bows too, aren't they?

Archery refers to bows that are drawn to the cheek, therefore crossbows are not bows where archery is concerned. I agree though, should apply to crossbows.

[Solmage]

Yes, arcane archer is bow only.

However, considering how this is as is a completely gimped class except perhaps for repeaters...

I really fail to see any balance or game issues with adding crossbows to this. I mean, there is VERY little of the original prestige class left, except the name. Heck if you'd called it by just about any other name you couldn't tell it was supposed to be an arcane archer.

So why not add one or two more things to make this 'specialization' a bit more appealing and useful to a larger player base, other than the one or two misguided ranger that doesn't choose just about anything else?

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

On the other side of the coin, the devs really should have created the prestige classes as actual levels rather than enhanments. Really would have cleared up the mess we are having now

-paintedman

Uh, becasue its a lot harder actually creating a class than some enhancements? *points to monks as proof.*

[GlassCannon]

Please pardon me if this has been brought up before but why can't the Arcane Archer enhancement create bolts? Crossbows are bows too, aren't they? They are lumped together in the "Ranged" category everywhere else why not here? In fact, the requierments themselves call for "Ranged" weapon ability.

I can see why multishot is bow specific, it just makes more sense to have it bow only (unless you want to fix that as well, I wouldn't mind, really). Ammo on the other hand is different. I say we need Arcane Bolts!! I could also do with a quiver. That should be easy, right? :)

My rangers(3 of them) are TWF Repeater builds(one is Tempest spec... yeah I'm wasting 3 feats on it...).

I do not use bows.

/signed.

[Deaths_ward]

/not signed

Having fired bows and cross bows. I get the difference between Archery and Crossbowing. The cross bow is basically a non-gunpowder gun that fires little crappy shafts of metal tipped wood, and actually isn't half as acurate as decent archer.

I also believe that Repeater builds don't need any extra boosts, they're already overpowered as it is.

[Lanuric]

Rangers are a gimped class??? Fantastic! So the 2 I have are totally useless.

My 28pt build with his max dex of only 30 and is completely ranged specced. His ability without manyshot to steal aggro from tanks in Reaver Elite (more about the tank than my ranger maybe :P) I took Arcane Archer after I specced for Deepwood Sniper. Its a great setup for critting, but I critted less than 50% of each shot. And after running the shroud with over 800 House D 75% returner arrows and running out of ammo on part 4 (not to mention the lack of room for loot), I decided to try out Arcane Archer. Using any +1 Longbow as a +4 makes a big difference, not to mention the savings on Bows. Buying a +1 Holy Burst Maiming Longbow for 7k5pp instead of 65kpp for a +3 Holy Burst Maiming Longbow of the AH, thats a big difference. It took me 10 APs, which is a few, but I still have all the enhancements I really need.

As a side note, my other ranger is going Tempest, simply because he has 1 Rogue level, and I have collected some nice rapiers for him (still hoping for smiter and banisher :P). I have 1 or 2 bows on him, but I dont have the room to carry lots of arrows and his rapiers at the same time.

But the original intention by the OP is valid, I was a little surprised you could not make bolts with the Arcane Archer feat. It seems like Flame Arrow, without the selection.

[Aeneas]

Why isn't there some sort of bow defense feat? :confused:

[MysticTheurge]

Why isn't there some sort of bow defense feat? :confused:

There's a feat in D&D, I don't remember the name, which allows you to use a ranged weapon without provoking attacks of opportunity.

I always thought you could pretty easily implement it in DDO by simply making it so you don't take the standard "I'm wielding a ranged weapon" AC penalty. (There is one of those, right? I don't play many ranged characters.)

[Emili]

Actually they relaxed some pre-reqs on the arcane archer most likely because they saw some facets of it they could not do easily and other feats (yes abilities are feats) which in this game may be overpowered. All in all though an arcane archer in PnP must be both arcane and elf to even qualify... hence it always followed bows (not cross-bows). DDO of course opened it up to any race and also just by taking metal toughness as a feat.

As for ranged attack being gimped it is only rate of fire which is to a point... and I'd have to say not by too much and here is my reasoning... when I click 'many shot' I'm delivering one shot (four arrows) of which each are hitting for up to 140+ pierce damage (not elements or anything else) per arrow on a crit (490hp theoretic damages tops if lucky on one shot) and typically if one arrow crits they all seem to crit - maybe a problem with thier random number generator, who knows? It's a 2min cooldown but has no usage per day like a pally smite and can indeed take out 2-5 cr27's with it should I sport a wounding of punturing bow at the time. Should I hop into rainbow on elite I run thru the hall target the very back elemental run to the front hit manyshot and with improved precise shot on and my wounding of puncturing bow how long do you think they possibly could stand there trying to earthgrab me? I'll tell you it's not more than 20 seconds because they're dead before the many shot runs out. While a melee can deliver a lot of damage constantly and more consistantly the melee places a lot of risk in doing so by comparison. They must deal with damage mitigation and equipment costs at least 3 fold. Rangers by far are not a gimped class in any for of the matter, and ranged archery is a powerful tool as it should be... but in this game you should not build around one single weapon... when my many shot runs out or I feel like a few single arrows are not going to cut it I go toe to toe... I have IC ranged and IC pierce and am an elf with full bow attack/damage lines and full ranged attack/damage lines ... 26 str with rams and rage potion or spell +2 to-hit and damages equals out to a 30 str equivalent then add in favoreds +3 outputs equate to a 36 str toon. That's on par with many toe-to-toe melee and then top that off that one can at many a moment switch to a bow and deliver that from afar?

[Aesop]

There's a feat in D&D, I don't remember the name, which allows you to use a ranged weapon without provoking attacks of opportunity.

I always thought you could pretty easily implement it in DDO by simply making it so you don't take the standard "I'm wielding a ranged weapon" AC penalty. (There is one of those, right? I don't play many ranged characters.)

Yes there is

in PnP you provoke Attacks of Opportunity for firing while in melee. There are three ways around this one is the Ranger spell Arrow Mind, the second is an Epic level Feat called Combat Archery and the last is from the Prestige Class Order of the Bow Initiate 2nd level Feature Close Combat Shot.

I myself love archers in PnP and have been banned from playing them due to a character I made that killed a Red Dragon from half a mile away with a single shot.... I keep insisting that it was because of the third party supplements that we were using and trying to show the dm why they weren't a good choice but no one wants to hear it... oh well.

Aesop

[Aesop]

Actually they relaxed some pre-reqs on the arcane archer most likely because they saw some facets of it they could not do easily and other feats (yes abilities are feats) which in this game may be overpowered. All in all though an arcane archer in PnP must be both arcane and elf to even qualify... hence it always followed bows (not cross-bows). DDO of course opened it up to any race and also just by taking metal toughness as a feat.





I call the m Features myself. Feat are that which you choose and Features are what come with a specific class or race

just my PoV

:D

Aesop

[Aesop]

I'd also like to point out that what people are asking for is the ability to create magical projectiles which would make it easier on their character as far as carrying capacity goes... I don't know for certain but they may already be able to use the True Strike ability. I myself perfer bows in general but I don't see why they shouldn't be able to focus the magic to make the bolt shape over the Arrow shape

Aesop

[MageLL]

/not signed

Having fired bows and cross bows. I get the difference between Archery and Crossbowing. The cross bow is basically a non-gunpowder gun that fires little crappy shafts of metal tipped wood, and actually isn't half as acurate as decent archer.

I also believe that Repeater builds don't need any extra boosts, they're already overpowered as it is.

I would like to point out a couple things to add to your thought process here. 1, crossbows, repeating or not, do not get any dmg bonus from STR. Secondly as you pointed out they are not as accurate. Lastly, taking a repeater or great crossbow requires a feat and should have some advantage for doing so.

I have tried using bows with my ranger, but I did not start out with max str. With a 24 buffed str, I find dual wielding much more benificial then a bow. Since you probably have done more testing then I. What kind of damage can you get with a high str ranger and a bow? How does that compare to 3 bolts from a repeater assuming that all 3 of them would land?

Since I am just recently re-joining the DDO community after over a year being gone. I noticed a general trend towards dual wielding characters. Its more about what kind of weapons you have and much less about what kind of build you used. Repeaters seem to me as a better choice for a ranger only because you have 3 shots opposed to 1 to land the weapons special effect, banish, disruption, paralysing, curse or what have you.

To tie this in with the topic, I was looking at the Arcane Archer myself, thank god I stumbled on this post before I wasted any money and shards to pick it up, only to find out I can't make bolts.

Last thought fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians are only meat sacks that provide distractions for the wizards and sorcs.

[Emili]

I would like to point out a couple things to add to your thought process here. 1, crossbows, repeating or not, do not get any dmg bonus from STR. Secondly as you pointed out they are not as accurate. Lastly, taking a repeater or great crossbow requires a feat and should have some advantage for doing so.

I have tried using bows with my ranger, but I did not start out with max str. With a 24 buffed str, I find dual wielding much more benificial then a bow. Since you probably have done more testing then I. What kind of damage can you get with a high str ranger and a bow? How does that compare to 3 bolts from a repeater assuming that all 3 of them would land?

Since I am just recently re-joining the DDO community after over a year being gone. I noticed a general trend towards dual wielding characters. Its more about what kind of weapons you have and much less about what kind of build you used. Repeaters seem to me as a better choice for a ranger only because you have 3 shots opposed to 1 to land the weapons special effect, banish, disruption, paralysing, curse or what have you.

To tie this in with the topic, I was looking at the Arcane Archer myself, thank god I stumbled on this post before I wasted any money and shards to pick it up, only to find out I can't make bolts.

Last thought fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians are only meat sacks that provide distractions for the wizards and sorcs.

See my post above, I am not pointing to people in this thread either but from what I seen put in practice in this game, What many people seem to do is not play a ranger correctly... they are what I like to call more of a twitch class character in DDO (meaning you must look at them as being very mobile). this works for me but I cannot say works for everyone... a ranger is an extremely versitlie class it covers both ranged and melee lines with little effort and hard pressing them in either direction tends to make half the abilities in the class almost nil.

I give this information as an experience and not a build or a blue print or to tout how great she is as she just a functional toon. My ranger is an elf, and is a hard spec'd dex build... started with only 14 str and a 20 dex, full base starting stats were (14 20 12 10 12 8) and currently (22 36 18 10 18 8) - very hard spec'd dex. 14 str is really pushing it low for a melee however the fact it is an elf allows via enhancement at least +2 in damages (which accounts for taking an 18 in another race - mind you you're spending 12ap to get it) but I am covering both bows and rapiers with enhancements. So the character equates out to a 14 base +2 tome + rams might + rage = 26 (+8 mod) before any favored enemy comes into the picture... add in the favored damage and pick the ones which cover the most territory, ie.) undead, evil outside, giants and either elementals or aberations (some people pick constructs however I see no point in them as they're non-crit so everyone has takes most down via smiter, spell or group pounding) Besides undead being in our list is bad enough. All in all though fully buffed (bard song, seeker) I've seen as high as 143 from a single arrow so far...

One thing I which works for me though is not to skew the character into a one trick pony outside the scope of to-hit and prefered weapon. By that I mean build a character for range but do not skimp on the hand to hand ... I took weapon focus ranged, weapon finesse, power critical, improved crit ranged, improved crit pierce and point blank - the last feat was just to play around with deepwoods sniper a bit.

Another piece of advice is when it comes to epic bows... like on the ah, so many people are looking at longbows and tend to price them rather high, while should you look at the same thing in a shortbow they're often a 10th the price. A longbow has a bit of better range a +2 damage, however when it come to epics why care? It is the crits to trigger the smiter, disruption, banishment, or the hit on the paralyzing you're actually interested in not so much 2 points of damage.

As to the OP's delema it's really the fact that the enhancement system has DnD so hard skewed towards making certain weapons not as viable as some others. It's the facts that the class and race lines place a significant amount of feat (aye I know they're called enhancements but they are feat equals) into the building process.

[Emili]

I call the m Features myself. Feat are that which you choose and Features are what come with a specific class or race

just my PoV

:D

Aesop


Well, of course call them what you like, all in all a feat or feature serve the same purpose... divine grace, many shot granted as an ability is still akin to weapon focus ranged or point blank shot for all purposes. Because from picking your class you got it or you picked it and tossed it in a feat slot... you still picked it anyway;)

[QuantumFX]

Yes, I did, our "Arcane Archer" is nothng like the official presitge class. There are more diferences than similarities for sure.

AS far as the "Low Base Damage" before you start calling me out, Consider Rate of Fire please..... a Light Pick does Significantly more DPS BASE than ANY bow. Bows dont come close until you start getting feats to boost em.

No you didn't. I left a nice little wiki link to show what the differences are between bolts and arrows. Bolts have more in common with darts than arrows. An arrow in a crossbow would shatter the moment you tried to fire it. Trying to fire a bolt from a bow... well... good luck with that. I'm sorry your crossbowman has ammo envy but what you're asking for goes completely against the spirit of the enhancement.


I would like to point out a couple things to add to your thought process here. 1, crossbows, repeating or not, do not get any dmg bonus from STR. Secondly as you pointed out they are not as accurate. Lastly, taking a repeater or great crossbow requires a feat and should have some advantage for doing so.

They do have advantages Heavy crossbows have better base damage and all crossbows have a better threat range. In DDO Repeating crossbows have a much higher RoF than bows and don't require splashing a level of ranger to be effective.


I have tried using bows with my ranger, but I did not start out with max str. With a 24 buffed str, I find dual wielding much more benificial then a bow. Since you probably have done more testing then I. What kind of damage can you get with a high str ranger and a bow? How does that compare to 3 bolts from a repeater assuming that all 3 of them would land?

Well with a 36 STR a Silver Longbow I've seen crits up to 121 + holy damage on devils. I'll switch purely to ranged if the foe turns all the fighter types into cleric mana sinks. In a normal quest I'll try to alternate between melee and manyshot volleys. Also as of Mod 6 full BAB characters get a 4th arrow in their manyshot.


Since I am just recently re-joining the DDO community after over a year being gone. I noticed a general trend towards dual wielding characters. Its more about what kind of weapons you have and much less about what kind of build you used. Repeaters seem to me as a better choice for a ranger only because you have 3 shots opposed to 1 to land the weapons special effect, banish, disruption, paralysing, curse or what have you.

You'll notice the same TWF trend in P&P too. Though you'll see it mixed as a sword n board fighting style but you'll never see someone bother with Power Attack and TWF. And no it's not just the number of bolts that fly it's the fact that they crit more often.

[timranger]

i want dual hand held crossbows i wanna d oda matrix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChildrenofBodom]

I hate rangers that use crossbows of any kind. :p

But seriously...