Dwarven Rogue

[Stealthbr]

Will use a +2 Cha favor tome at level 14 to get FoP at 15. Just some thoughts passed through my mind and I decided to give this a try:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 16 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 11 Rogue)
Hit Points: 221
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 14
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 17 22
Dexterity 13 14
Constitution 13 14
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 11 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 5 10
Bluff 0 2
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 0 2
Disable Device 6 27
Haggle 0 2
Heal 1 1
Hide 1 2
Intimidate 0 2
Jump 7 22
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 1 2
Open Lock 5 23
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 6 8
Search 6 25
Spot 3 23
Swim 3 6
Tumble 5 19
Use Magic Device 4 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Disable Device

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Spot

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion

Level 16 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Fire Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Way of the Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[ghale]

What exactly are you trying to do with this build as from the feat selection it is unclear?

Are you trying to be a melee? a tank?

Sf:spot? = not needed
dodge? = not needed
toughness? = I guess since you are a dwarf to have more hp? You won't have aggro on anything any of the time with this build so not sure why more hp matter.
sf:disable? = not really needed
combat expertise? = don't get it

Going to be fighting with a one handed weapon/shield then?

From the looks of it you'll have a sub-par DPS char to any fighter/paladin/ranger/rogue with less hp than all except non-dwarf/mc/rogues.
You'll have slightly higher saves
Won't be able to disable traps better.
You don't even have any backstab enhancements so why 11 levels in rogue?

It looks like you would be better off only taking 2 or 3 rogue levels and more levels of fighter/paladin so you'll at least have a higher bab/more hp.

[Impaqt]

I'm not a big fan of Str based rogues to begin with, but I find you've overcompensated ont eh rogue skills quite a bit. theres no reason you should need all those Enhancments AND feats in your rogue Skills.

6 Action points into Dwaven axe attack for 2 Points of Damage? You realize for ONE action point you can get +2 to your sneak attack right? (+3 with Mod7)

The idea that a Str bassed rogue is going todo more damage is a common misconception. Unless your awesome at controlling your aggro, you end up doing substantially less damage as compared to an equivalent finesse rogue.

[Stealthbr]

Hmm, good point on the sneak attack thing. I never really bothered even looking at those enhancements but how are they now? CE and dodge is for AC purposes. Sword/board. SF: Spot was just in case. I haven't used my main rogue in quite a while so I don't know how much is needed. Same goes for the SF:DD. Always good to have HP though. I might relook the sneak attack enhancements also. Is subtle backstabber a good option?

I only did this to see what people thought about dwarven rogues. Isn't pulling aggro away from an intimi tank or barbarian pretty hard o.O? I still prefer my drow though ^^.

[Ransacked]

I put this build together when the cap was 14.

The build is currently at level 8

Dwarven 10 Rogue / 4 Fighter
36 AC Two Handed / 43 AC w/ Shield @ Rest
237 HP w/o False Life Item

Base Stats
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 6

End Game Stats
Will use Fighter Str I, Rogue Dex III, Dwarven Con II
All 3 points will go into Dex
Using a +1 Tome for Str
Figured all +6 stat items(except wis +5) because what the hell why not.

STR 24
DEX 28
CON 20
INT 20
WIS 18
CHA 12


Will be taking all the Sneak Attack Enhancements (+3 to Hit / +8 to damage)
Dwarven Axe Attack II
Weapon Focus Slashing
Fighter Flanking Mastery I

BaB 11
+3 Sneak Attack
+1 Flanking
+1 Feat
+2 DA Attack II
+9 Dex (or +7 Str)
+4 GH
+1 Weapon
---------------
32/32/37/42
Not Sneak Attacking
29/29/34/39
TWF - Finesse -2
27/27/32/37

-------------------
AC
10 Base
10 +5 Mith BP
9 (5+4 Max Dex (Ftr Armor Mastery I, Dwarven Armor Mastery III)
1 Dodge
4 Protection
2 Natural
= 36 AC w/ No Shield
7 +5 Heavy Steel Shield
= 43 AC w/ Shield

-------------------
Hit Points
40 Fighter Levels
60 Rogue Levels
20 Base
70 Con
17 Toughness
10 Fighter Toughness
20 Dwarven Toughness

= 237
-------------------
Feats / Level Progression

1&2 Rogue - Evasion / Skill Points, Dodge
3&4 Fighter - Toughness, Weapon Focus Slashing, Weapon Finesse
5 Rogue - Sneak Attack
6 Fighter - TWF
7-9 Rogue -Imp. TWF
10 Fighter - Imp. Critical
11 - 14 Rogue - Gtr TWF or Weapon Spec Slashing, Imp. Uncanny Dodge, Imp. Evasion



Saves
15 / 20 / 11 (unbuffed)


It's fun to play :)

[ghale]

Currently with the set-up you have, you won't need to worry about subtle backstabber enhancements.

Sneak Attack Training enhancements are extremely worth it now, and will be even more so in mod 7 when they get a boost.

Currently it gives +2 damage per rank for +8 damage to backstabs at level 10.

Sword and Board is also a waste on a rogue as the damage increase you get by just equipping certain off-hand weapons is huge. You can either equip a +10 seeker offhand weapon, Treason (deception/ +3/5sneak attack), or a generic backstabbing weapon with a +5 to hit/+8 to damage mod.

Your AC won't be high enough to matter much towards high levels so I wouldn't focus on it with this build. Also if you are getting hit, it means you have aggro and won't be doing any damage anyway where a simple 'fearsome' armor will do more for you, while giving you back two feats to use on something actually useful.

Spot is a waste of a feat as once you know where the boxes or traps are, you don't need to spot them anymore. Also in most groups people will always point out where trap boxes are. Search is the important skill.

With a decent disable item, +13s are easy to buy on the ah, max ranks, +5 thieves tools, gh, and skill boost if necessary you shouldn't have trouble disarming 99% of the traps even on elite.


Pulling aggro isn't that hard if you are moderately aimed at doing DPS. It is usually rather difficult to find melee that can keep consistent aggro, especially if you pug a lot. There are a couple ways around this though. If you are a str build, get a sirocco and use that in your mainhand as you'll be able to sneak attack even with aggro. Also having puncturing weapons is greatly beneficial (they do not need to be W/P as puncturing is pretty powerful as is).

This gets into the drawback of being a dwarf and using axes though. Axes in general have relatively poor crit range/abilities where on rapiers you can have banishing/smiting/puncturing on a 15-20 crit range.

[Strykersz]

Dodge is only worthwhile if you will be routinely breaking 50ac without outside buffs or as a pre-req for Mobility/SA. CE is only worthwhile if you can hit 45 ac without it, or as a pre-req for Improved Feint. These rules don't necessarily apply if you never plan on running Giant Hold+ and the numbers are lower if you only run on normal. The original build is going to suffer from not enough dex to get a high ac. The most recently posted build should probably get for a pair of chaosguardes, which are usually cheaper than the +5 mbp you plan on using.

[Stealthbr]

I don't see what you mean about the AC feats not being worthwhile:

10 base
13 +5MFP
7 +5Shield
6 Dodge (ring,bracers,feat)
5 Dex (2enhancements)
5 CE
2 Pally Aura
5 Protection

Total of 53 AC unbuffed.

[Impaqt]

I don't see what you mean about the AC feats not being worthwhile:

10 base
13 +5MFP
7 +5Shield
6 Dodge (ring,bracers,feat)
5 Dex (2enhancements)
5 CE
2 Pally Aura
5 Protection

Total of 53 AC unbuffed.

Uh, Mithral Full Plate Negates Evasion and Improved Evasion. Its Medium......

So if you want to keep Evasion your at
10 Base
10 +5 Mith Breastplate
7 +5Shield
6 Dodge (ring,bracers,feat)
5 Dex (2enhancements)
5 CE
2 Pally Aura
5 Protection
---
50

49 or 50 means about the same end game you wont see a difference.... CE is going toDrop every time you whip a wand or UMD a scroll as well... So reaistiacly your talking 44-45 ac most of the time if you score a Chattering RIng.

[Stealthbr]

Are you serious about the CE dropping when using wands and scrolls O.O! I don't plan on building this guy btw. I just posted this to get me updated on all the rogue goodies. Guess Ill respec my other rogue and swap SF:DD, dodge, and CE for TWF, ITWF, GTWF.

Btw, will I be "gimped" if I don't have the tempest enhancement (since im no ranger) as a twf rogue?

[Impaqt]

Are you serious about the CE dropping when using wands and scrolls O.O! I don't plan on building this guy btw. I just posted this to get me updated on all the rogue goodies. Guess Ill respec my other rogue and swap SF:DD, dodge, and CE for TWF, ITWF, GTWF.

Btw, will I be "gimped" if I don't have the tempest enhancement (since im no ranger) as a twf rogue?

Yes, Even drinking a Lesser Restore pot drops CE rightnow..... ANY Casting Drops it.

No, You wont be gimped, but watch your Feat Progression when respecing those for TWF.. there are BAB Requirements on all the TWF Feats so ifya dont remeber what levels you took what it could be a nightmare.

[ghale]

Are you serious about the CE dropping when using wands and scrolls O.O! I don't plan on building this guy btw. I just posted this to get me updated on all the rogue goodies. Guess Ill respec my other rogue and swap SF:DD, dodge, and CE for TWF, ITWF, GTWF.

Btw, will I be "gimped" if I don't have the tempest enhancement (since im no ranger) as a twf rogue?

No you won't be "gimped" without it. Going 6 ranger does provide some benefits as free twf/itwf/manyshot as well as ram's might and either jump/tumble as a spell. You'll lose out on 3d6 sneak attack damage and 2 rogue feats most noticeably.

Also on your rogue 53ac would be meaningless as you wouldn't do enough damage to get aggro, or if you were soloing you wouldn't be doing any damage and just be killed before you could kill the mob anyway.

If you don't have intimidate or high dps to get aggro and make use of your ac it's a waste to build for it at the expense of something more useful.

[Stealthbr]

I haven't taken CE or dodge yet (build is only lvl 7). Will swap SF:DD for TWF feat. Btw, is it worth TWFing even if I don't have ITWF or should I wait until I get it?

[Impaqt]

Also on your rogue 53ac would be meaningless as you wouldn't do enough damage to get aggro, or if you were soloing you wouldn't be doing any damage and just be killed before you could kill the mob anyway.

:confused: Rogues are debatably the highest DPS Class in the game. A well build rogue can grab aggro from all but the best barbs in the game quickly.

[ghale]

It is worth taking twf to reduce the penalty of having an off-hand weapon equipped, even without ITWF yet. Being a lower BaB class getting that extra 2 to hit back helps a lot.

Starting at level 6 you can already pick up a couple cheap choices for an offhand weapon. I think there is seeker +6, for 12 more damage on crits, or backstabbing +2/4.

[ghale]

:confused: Rogues are debatably the highest DPS Class in the game. A well build rogue can grab aggro from all but the best barbs in the game quickly.

I agree with that, which is why I didn't say AC is useless on rogues...just his rogue. The current build he had, had no backstab enhancements, using an axe with a mediocre str. He would only be gaining aggro over equally weak melees of which most aren't even that terrible.