Thoughts on a Dwarven Warchanter

[Rkik_Dnec]

As I've been reading more about the warchanter, the more I'm interested in trying it. My plan is to go with dwarf and either do 16 levels of bard or 14 bard/2 fighter. I had thought of going 2 rogue for evasion and sneak attack, but I don't know if it's worth it. I don't really care for the rogue skills. I don't have access to 32 point builds or much in the way of tomes or uber gear, so this will be a more simplified build.

Starting stats:

STR: 18
DEX: 8
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 10

Feats: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Power Attack, Extend Spell, MT(?), Two Handed Fighting(?)
Skills: Perform, UMD, Haggle ???

That's about as far as I've thought it out, and I don't have access to a character planner at the moment. The only skills I really care about at the moment are Perform, Haggle and UMD. Would dropping the INT to 8 and bumping up the CHA to 12 be worth it for a few more SP? Also, what are the benefits to taking 2 levels of Fighter, other than the additional feat? Would Ranger or something else be a better fit? Am I missing anything obvious?

Thanks.

[maddmatt70]

Yes drop int to 8 and raise charisma 12. Solid build especially with 28 points to allocate...

Feats: weapon focus slash, power attack, extend, two handed, improved two handed, greater two handed if you go pure bard.. with 2 levels of fighter add toughness, and skill focus umd. If you play fairly regulary umd isnt as much an issue as it was before with the items in the new raid which give + to charisma skills. I would prefer either a 1 fighter 15 bard or 1 fighter 1 barbarian 14 bard personaly. The 1 barbarian for the speed..

Note: if your planning to level 20 going pure level 20 bard might be the way to go.. you could pick up weapon focus slash, power attack, extend, two handed, improved two handed, toughness, and then when the cap goes to 18 greater two handed..

[GuitarHero]

just a heads up and personal observation, TWF tends to be more dps for the warchanter. Say, hypothetically at one point you have +5 weapon damage. Ok, if you have a greatsword that does 2d6 damage, that's 2d6+5, (strength bonus not mentioned for this example) Now, if you have two shortswords, for 1d6 each, thats 2d6+10!! Swing for swing, you get a lot more bang for your buck with TWF on a warchanter, in my humble opinion. And of course, you don't have to use shortswords. A pair of dwarven axes would be 2d10+10.

[Westerner]

I went 2/14 Ftr/Bard and THF on my dorfchanter. See Thundorf link in my sig for details.

[Rkik_Dnec]

What about alignment?

Is there any major bonus to going True Neutral as opposed to neutral good? I have a number of good aligned weapons that I could pass down from my Cleric, so I was mostly looking at NG.

[Delt]

just a heads up and personal observation, TWF tends to be more dps for the warchanter. Say, hypothetically at one point you have +5 weapon damage. Ok, if you have a greatsword that does 2d6 damage, that's 2d6+5, (strength bonus not mentioned for this example) Now, if you have two shortswords, for 1d6 each, thats 2d6+10!! Swing for swing, you get a lot more bang for your buck with TWF on a warchanter, in my humble opinion. And of course, you don't have to use shortswords. A pair of dwarven axes would be 2d10+10.

Not mentioning STR/Power Attack is of course going to skew numbers heavily in favor of TWF, so that's not particularly fair. I think even if you include those numbers though, TWF generally comes ahead, but at the same time you've usually diluted the build by having to put Dex as primary stat (in addition to STR).

Neither is without a trade-off.

[geezee]

STR and power attack dont change anything. TWF uses both of these,

TWF and THF both do very similar damage on STR-based battle bards. The extra damage from the THF tree is more or less equal to the extra damage done by TWF hitting more often with bard buffs.

TWF is better for stat damage and effects, THF is better for getting thru DR. But I find the 2 pretty close.

In the case of a 28 point dwarf, its a no brainer to go THF. And I would take the 2 fighter levels, as the feats and synergy are hard to pass up. With your low CHA you wont do much, if any offensive casting anyway.

[geezee]

You might consider 16 8 18 10 8 12.

Skills: perform, UMD, jump, balance, conc, and haggle and diplo if possible.

Feats: 2 fighter lvls can get you: WF, PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC, toughness, and 1 of FOP, MT or extend.

A bit hard to play this guy without at least 1 lvl of fighter, for the toughness feat. That gets you an extra 68 hp which helps a lot.

[Delt]

STR and power attack dont change anything. TWF uses both of these,

TWF and THF both do very similar damage on STR-based battle bards. The extra damage from the THF tree is more or less equal to the extra damage done by TWF hitting more often with bard buffs.

TWF is better for stat damage and effects, THF is better for getting thru DR. But I find the 2 pretty close.

In the case of a 28 point dwarf, its a no brainer to go THF. And I would take the 2 fighter levels, as the feats and synergy are hard to pass up. With your low CHA you wont do much, if any offensive casting anyway.

I'm not sure how you can say it changes nothing, seeing as PA is double damage bonus on THF...

[geezee]

PA is 10 damage on THF, 5 damage on TWF. TWF gets approximately twice as many as attacks. So yes PA does more damage per attack on THF compared to TWF. But about the same damage per round or per second. The exception is DR, which I mentioned. Of course, there are weapons which ignore DR.

The same concept also works for damage done by STR. The main hand gets full damage from STR, the off-hand gets half damage from the STR bonus. They add up to the 1.5 multiplier on a 2-hander.

Which is why I said THF and TWF do about the same damage on a battle bard. If you dont believe me, try it.

[Strykersz]

You might consider 16 8 18 10 8 12.

Skills: perform, UMD, jump, balance, conc, and haggle and diplo if possible.

Feats: 2 fighter lvls can get you: WF, PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC, toughness, and 1 of FOP, MT or extend.

A bit hard to play this guy without at least 1 lvl of fighter, for the toughness feat. That gets you an extra 68 hp which helps a lot.

How are you taking TWF feats with 8 dex?

edit: And TWF outdamages THF for a battle bard due to the song damage not getting doubled while THF.

[geezee]

Ya right, I meant THF, obviously with the 8 DEX.

I have a feeling the splash damage from THF is greater than the extra bard damage which TWF gets. I still dont know for sure, because it also depends what youre fighting. Kind of a moot point because he has to go with THF anyway.

[skraus1]

Starting stats:
STR: 18
DEX: 8
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 10

Feats: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Power Attack, Extend Spell, MT(?), Two Handed Fighting(?)


18
8
16
8
8
12

Is better because it gives you more sp AND allows you to cast with a +1 or +2 cha item, which can easily be found on an otherwise useful item like a greater resist cloak. For a non-skill character, int is not useful as you already can max out 5 skills.

Feats you need:
toughness
and the entire thfing chain.
Improved crit

Mt is nearly worthless as you will be tight on mana either way and mt give you 2-3 more displacements per shrine. That is it. Sending this toon all you smaller mneumonic pots is a more effecient way to go.

You will need to space your fighter levels out to fit in the entire thfing chain, so be sure to plan ahead.

[Westerner]

Is better because it gives you more sp AND allows you to cast with a +1 or +2 cha item, which can easily be found on an otherwise useful item like a greater resist cloak. For a non-skill character, int is not useful as you already can max out 5 skills.
/concur



Feats you need:
the entire thfing chain.

Mt is nearly worthless as you will be tight on mana either way and mt give you 2-3 more displacements per shrine.
I question whether the THF feat chain is worth it. You really have to take all three, and even then I calculate only ~10% single target DPS increase.

Mental Toughness has value. Mana fuels a battlebard. Displacement/Haste/Rage/Heal is the core of your combat power. You don't want to run out of gas.

[CSFurious]

all i will say is that if your battle-bard runs out of mana it will suddenly become almost useless in a melee role especially if you are a squishy drow

on my drow spellsinger i have 720 mana at level 11, i have that much mana because i need it

a bard who fights can never have enough mana IMO

[skraus1]

all i will say is that if your battle-bard runs out of mana it will suddenly become almost useless in a melee role especially if you are a squishy drow

on my drow spellsinger i have 720 mana at level 11, i have that much mana because i need it

a bard who fights can never have enough mana IMO

That is what those lowbie mana pots are for. Even a level 1 or 3 will give you enough for a displacement or two. You can also get them at base cost from the AH so they're cheap and readily available.

Zhaffy fights with I believe 475 mana with a magi robe. She does fine everywhere.

Drow spellsingers and dwarven warchanters are entirely different beasts.



I question whether the THF feat chain is worth it. You really have to take all three, and even then I calculate only ~10% single target DPS increase.

If the weapon calculator is to be believed, it is something like 20-30% increase in single target dps. Zhaffy's glancing blows hit for around 20hp without any of the feats. Increasing that damage and getting two of them would be nice.

[Westerner]

That is what those lowbie mana pots are for. Even a level 1 or 3 will give you enough for a displacement or two... Zhaffy fights with I believe 475 mana with a magi robe.
Thanks for that tip. However, even with 600 SP, I still run out of mana often enough to value MT. It seems like at high levels I am expected to fight less and buff/heal more, so am considering IMT for level 15.


If the weapon calculator is to be believed, it is something like 20-30% increase in single target dps.
Which calc did you use? Mine was based on jcflanigan's. At the time it showed +5% dps for THF/ITHF, and I estimated GTHF at 5% (the same amount). Jj has since updated his calc for BAB11+, but 20-30% feels like a stretch.

[skraus1]

Thanks for that tip. However, even with 600 SP, I still run out of mana often enough to value MT. It seems like at high levels I am expected to fight less and buff/heal more, so am considering IMT for level 15.


Which calc did you use? Mine was based on jcflanigan's. At the time it showed +5% dps for THF/ITHF, and I estimated GTHF at 5% (the same amount). Jj has since updated his calc for BAB11+, but 20-30% feels like a stretch.

Anyone who has ever asked zhaffy to heal or buff I kindy explain that I'm a melee with self buffing capabilities, and other than good hope, bardsong and maybe haste, my little mana pool will not last. I've never heard any complaints and my guildies never ask.


It was the same calc. Gthfing adds another whole glancing blow though so it is a large improvement, similar to the 2 attacks gtwing gets. With thfing, you either take all 3 or avoid them completely. However I'm not sure it's calculating it right because it is showing the gthfing doesn't add any dps, when it gives you your second glancing blow. Also the per swing and per second modes don't come close to the same result with glancing blows added.

[CSFurious]

i think you have a lot of experience & mainly play with your guild, i.e., they tolerate your playstyle

try pugging a bard that way, i.e., "i only buff myself"

notwithstanding same, a dwarf warchanter without buffs just becomes a sort of gimped barbarian who needs a lot of healing if they still want to melee until the next shrine

but, definitely collect as many mana pots as you can


That is what those lowbie mana pots are for. Even a level 1 or 3 will give you enough for a displacement or two. You can also get them at base cost from the AH so they're cheap and readily available.

Zhaffy fights with I believe 475 mana with a magi robe. She does fine everywhere.

Drow spellsingers and dwarven warchanters are entirely different beasts.



If the weapon calculator is to be believed, it is something like 20-30% increase in single target dps. Zhaffy's glancing blows hit for around 20hp without any of the feats. Increasing that damage and getting two of them would be nice.

[geezee]

i think you have a lot of experience & mainly play with your guild, i.e., they tolerate your playstyle

try pugging a bard that way, i.e., i only buff myself

notwithstanding same, a dwarf warchanter without buffs just becomes a sort of gimped barbarian who needs a lot of healing if they still want to melee until the next shrine

but, definitely collect as many mana pots as you can

I have a lot of respect for CSFurious and agree with him 99% of the time, but this time I disagree.

My warchanters cast good hope and 2 or 3 songs, and thats it. If theres no caster in the group, I will haste in the battles. But Im always sure to save enough mana to displace myself any time I get agro. The rest of the mana is to buff and heal myself. If I get DVs I will displace the tank. And I never get any complaints.

The dwarf displaced warchanter should need half the healing of a barb, and should be able to do some of it himself. He can also heal and res the cleric, and cc when needed. Just his songs are enough to buff the melees more than any other class can.

[CSFurious]

i will admit that lately i have been playing my drow spellsinger & that she has so much mana at level 11 (720) that i toss buffs all around & also can be the cleric, i.e., last night in crucible norm, 5 man

anyway, i just think that a bard should at least try to pass out some blurs in addition to the good hope & songs

i also give out fom, rage & displacement on certain tanks

i am also addicted to haste & constantly cast it

with my human warchanter, i also have to be more stingy with my mana

so, i agree there is a big difference between dwarf/human warchanters & drow spellsingers with respect to mana-buffing

however, i know that while pugging my drow spellsinger has been one of my most popular builds ever, i.e., her friend's list is long & she has no trouble finding groups

peace


I have a lot of respect for CSFurious and agree with him 99% of the time, but this time I disagree.

My warchanters cast good hope and 2 or 3 songs, and thats it. If theres no caster in the group, I will haste in the battles. But Im always sure to save enough mana to displace myself any time I get agro. The rest of the mana is to buff and heal myself. If I get DVs I will displace the tank. And I never get any complaints.

The dwarf displaced warchanter should need half the healing of a barb, and should be able to do some of it himself. He can also heal and res the cleric, and cc when needed. Just his songs are enough to buff the melees more than any other class can.

[skraus1]

i think you have a lot of experience & mainly play with your guild, i.e., they tolerate your playstyle

try pugging a bard that way, i.e., "i only buff myself"

notwithstanding same, a dwarf warchanter without buffs just becomes a sort of gimped barbarian who needs a lot of healing if they still want to melee until the next shrine

but, definitely collect as many mana pots as you can

Ummm....no. Drow spellsingers and dwarven warchanters are almost almost completely different beasts.

In pugs, I typically explain that I only have 467 mana with my magi robe and that if I try to buff the entire party it will run out and then I can't displace myself. When I pug I typically lead in kill counts or come very close to it, and this always was the case. I also am a fully functionning rogue, so that is one less role needed in the party. Because of both of these abilites, they always have understood. Also, with displacement I take relatively little damage due to my superior dps and some dr. My ranger with a 52-56 ac takes more damage in the vale than Zhaffy with a 5 ac, and dies WAY more frequently. I have had to take over the "tank" role in vale quest, including on elite, because some pug "tanks" were dying too much.

The only buffs I provide are good hope, songs and haste if there is no caster or the quest is relatively short. The only time some pugs have given Zhaffy grief other pugs have shut them up, quickly. In guild groups it never even comes up for discussion, but then again they send me up against the pit fiend time and again.

[Westerner]

i think you have a lot of experience & mainly play with your guild, i.e., they tolerate your playstyle
however, i know that while pugging my drow spellsinger has been one of my most popular builds ever, i.e., her friend's list is long & she has no trouble finding groups


My warchanters cast good hope and 2 or 3 songs, and thats it. If theres no caster in the group, I will haste in the battles. But Im always sure to save enough mana to displace myself any time I get agro ... Just his songs are enough to buff the melees more than any other class can.


I also am a fully functionning rogue, so that is one less role needed in the party ... The only buffs I provide are good hope, songs and haste if there is no caster or the quest is relatively short. The only time some pugs have given Zhaffy grief other pugs have shut them up, quickly. In guild groups it never even comes up for discussion...

I see this as a metagame/grouping issue. Having extra SP for buffs/healing makes you more desireable. If you run with a large guild and/or have a reputation this is less of an issue. I'm newish and mostly PUG, and it seems like healing is getting me a lot more invites than my DPS.

[skraus1]

I see this as a metagame/grouping issue. Having extra SP for buffs/healing makes you more desireable. If you run with a large guild and/or have a reputation this is less of an issue. I'm newish and mostly PUG, and it seems like healing is getting me a lot more invites than my DPS.

Yeah you might be right. One other thing is the degree to which you need to provide displacement on yourself. Some bards can off-tank so they don't get aggro much. When I made Zhaffy a while back the melee in my guild was largely defensive fighters, and Zhaffy drew a lot of aggro as a result. Thus, I always had to keep myself displaced to survive, even with 360 or so hp I had level 14. With extend on, 20 something minutes of displacement means 300 or so mana only with this style of play.

Strangely enough nowadays a lot of fighters, even fighters and pallies, have dropped AC altogether and focus on dps, so I tend to play tank when grouping with them because I take less damage with my displacement than they do.

I find that pugs are in search of rogues almost as frequently as they are of bards for healing. Thus, I've never had trouble pugging.

[Westerner]

THF update: Latest version of jjflanigan's tool shows +10% single target DPS increase.

Inputs:
BAB 11
STR +10
+5 Elemental Greataxe of Righteousness
IC: Slash
+7 to hit / +6 dmg song bonus
Power Attack
AC32 assumed

A) Base Scenario 84.44 dmg/sec
B) +THF 85.61
C) +ITHF 87.14
D) +GTHF 93.48

This confirms GTHF is the key, as others have posted.

However, is a 10% DPS increase worth 3 feats for a battlebard?

To put it in perspective, you would have to get approx +5 damage to equal the THF feat line.

Pro: TWF battlebards invest 3 feats to get GTWF, so why can't THF bards do the same? You get even more glancing damage if you can hit multiple targets. And there's something emotionally satisfying about a "hapless" bard wading into a group of mobs, pulling out a greataxe, and cleaving them all in twain... simultaneously. :)

CON: There's a lot of neat things a bard can do with three feats. Extra SP, offensive casting, Force of Personality, heck, even Empower Healing, all add up to a nice set of diversified capabilities.

[CSFurious]

while pugging if you are a bard who can heal, you will quickly build a reputation & have no trouble ever finding a group or waiting around for that elusive cleric


I see this as a metagame/grouping issue. Having extra SP for buffs/healing makes you more desireable. If you run with a large guild and/or have a reputation this is less of an issue. I'm newish and mostly PUG, and it seems like healing is getting me a lot more invites than my DPS.