Greater TWF & # of Attacks

[Grenfell]

Just wanted to see if anyone's done any experimentation to verify this.

With GTWF and 15 BAB (5 attacks/round), are we now getting 8 attacks per cycle or 9? I think it should be 8, but looking at my combat log recently, I was seeing some odd string of numbers, that looked like this:

Swing and hit (+35)
Swing and hit (+35)
Swing and hit (+35)
Swing and hit (+35)
Swing and hit (+40)
Swing and hit (+40)
Swing and hit (+45)
Swing and hit (+45)
Swing and hit (+50)

That would make it 9 attacks/cycle. Very very odd. It might be observer error, though I do have a couple of combat logs with **** like that. Just wanted to do a sanity check to see if anyone has the definitive answer.

Thanks,

/gren

[brshelton]

Dev quote said 10 a round with GTWF and a 15 BaB and 11 with STWF and a 15 BaB I think. So dunno I'll post my test results later.

[Scrion]

My testing on my 15 ranger produced this for the attack chain.

Main Hand
Off Hand
Main Hand
Off Hand
Main Hand +5
Off Hand +5
Off Hand +10
Main Hand +10
Off Hand +10
Main Hand +10

So equal number of attacks 5 Main, 5 Off. 4 Regular, 2 at +5, and 4 at +10.

I made sure to use extreemly different weapons in main and off hand so I could look at the attack roll and figure out which hand it was. I.E. main hand was +34 to hit off hand was +31, that way off hand +5 did not look like a normal main hand attack in the combat log. The hard part is finding a single monster you can get all 10 attacks on without it moving out of range/dying.

[Borror0]

You're supposed to get...


+13/+13/
+13/+13/
+17/+17/
+22/+22/
+27/+27

...with GTWF, so unless I failed math class... that should be 10.

[jjflanigan]

It's 10. Here's how the number of attacks per minute scale for TWF with the various feats



Weapon BaB 0 BaB 1 BaB 2 BaB 3 BaB 4 BaB 5 BaB 6 BaB 7 BaB 8 BaB 9 BaB 10 BaB 11 BaB 12 BaB 13 BaB 14 BaB 15 BaB 16
TWF Main Hand 85 93 100 104 109 91 92 93 94 96 91 91 87 87 88 83 83

TWF Off Hand 42 46 50 52 54 30 31 31 31 32 22 22 21 21 22 33 33
ITWF Off Hand 61 62 62 64 46 46 44 44 44 50 50
GTWF Off Hand 91 87 87 88 83 83

[QuantumFX]

I thought STWF was supposed to bring us to 10 attacks per cycle.

[Borror0]

I thought STWF was supposed to bring us to 10 attacks per cycle.
It gives use the 11th. (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain#Standing_still_2)

[Angelus_dead]

What many people might have missed is that regardless of having a higher BAB, Module6 gave +1 attacks to all TWF users.

Originally you got 1 attack from the first swing, and the 2nd and later swings could be doubled with TWF. Now you get a double attack on the first swing as well.

[Scrion]

It gives use the 11th. (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain#Standing_still_2)

Borror0, in that chart on the wiki the BAB 16 line is wrong. It starts out with the first animation correct at +14/+14 but the 3rd and all following animations are listed at +4 from the first instead of +5. I.E. attacks in the 3rd animation should be at +19/+19 not the +18/+18 you have listed, and the others following it are wrong since they are based off this number.

And another thing to note. The devs never went up to the +15 bonus for the 5th swing in one handed or two handed. By my tests the TWF chain also did not get the +15 you are listing for the 5th animation. I'm not a forum hound so I wont be digging up the quote but the devs said they sped up the animation but left the final swings attack bonus at +10 just like the 4th.

[Borror0]

Borror0, in that chart on the wiki the BAB 16 line is wrong.

Fixed


I'm not a forum hound so I wont be digging up the quote but the devs said they sped up the animation but left the final swings attack bonus at +10 just like the 4th.

You are right, I'll fix that one.

Thank you, whenever you see a mistake on any wiki page and you guys don't want to edit it yourself, just send me a PM about the said page and describe the mistake.:)

[Mad_Bombardier]

What many people might have missed is that regardless of having a higher BAB, Module6 gave +1 attacks to all TWF users.

Originally you got 1 attack from the first swing, and the 2nd and later swings could be doubled with TWF. Now you get a double attack on the first swing as well.Double 1st attack was supposed to be an added with GrTWF. Are you sure that all characters get double first attack, all the time (even at BAB+1)?

Update: And just confirmed in game. My BAB+15 Fighter wielding two weapons with no feats gets only a mainhand on 1st attack. Offhand on 1st attack is granted by GrTWF.

[QuantumFX]

It gives use the 11th. (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Combo_chain#Standing_still_2)

Borror0, I've racked my brain for a couple days on this on how to present this without coming across as a jerk. So, please take this as constructive criticism not as a flame. But where are the sources for this? 11 attacks makes absolutely no sense.

At level 16 full BAB characters should have 5 attacks per round. (The 4 defined in P&P plus the extra attack Turbine grants at BaB +1) TWF should grant 1 Offhand attack, ITWF should Grant 2, GTWF should grant 3, Superior should grant 4 and Turbine's given us another free offhand attack at BaB +1. So with STWF we should have 5 Main hand attacks and 5 Off hand attacks.

If I'm wrong, then what am I missing? :confused:

[Mad_Bombardier]

Borror0, I've racked my brain for a couple days on this on how to present this without coming across as a jerk. So, please take this as constructive criticism not as a flame. But where are the sources for this? 11 attacks makes absolutely no sense.

At level 16 full BAB characters should have 5 attacks per round. (The 4 defined in P&P plus the extra attack Turbine grants at BaB +1) TWF should grant 1 Offhand attack, ITWF should Grant 2, GTWF should grant 3, Superior should grant 4 and Turbine's given us another free offhand attack at BaB +1. So with STWF we should have 5 Main hand attacks and 5 Off hand attacks.

If I'm wrong, then what am I missing? :confused:The source is the developer named Codog.
With two weapon fighting,

Attack 1 has RH attack hook.
Attack 2 has RH, LH attack hook.
Attack 3 has RH attack hook
Attack 4 has RH attack hook
Attack 5 has RH, LH attack hook.

Improved TWF adds a LH attack hook to attack 3.
Greater TWF adds a LH attack hook to moving attack 1 (weird that it doesn't for standing... I'll be checking with design) and LH to attack 4.
Superior TWF adds another RH attack to attack 5.After he finished "checking with design," Codog added a LH attack hook to [standing] attack 1 granted by GrTWF. This info was also in the Mod6 release notes, IIRC.

Edit: Yup, here it is.
General Skills, Feats & Abilities changes
Greater two weapon fighting now enables an extra left hand attack hook while standing, making it more consistent with mobile attacks.

[QuantumFX]

The source is the developer named Codog.After he finished "checking with design," Codog added a LH attack hook to [standing] attack 1 granted by GrTWF. This info was also in the Mod6 release notes, IIRC.

Edit: Yup, here it is.

OK, but I'm still counting 10 total attacks...

Attack 1 has RH attack hook.
Attack 2 has RH, LH attack hook.
Attack 3 has RH attack hook (ITWF adds a LH attack hook here)
Attack 4 has RH attack hook (GTWF adds a LH here)
Attack 5 has RH, LH attack hook. (STWF adds another RH attack here)

I think everyone is adding an additional attack from GTWF that's supposed to apply to moving attack (aka Spring Attack or moving attack.)

The release notes could be referring to attack 4.

[EinarMal]

Borror0, I've racked my brain for a couple days on this on how to present this without coming across as a jerk. So, please take this as constructive criticism not as a flame. But where are the sources for this? 11 attacks makes absolutely no sense.

At level 16 full BAB characters should have 5 attacks per round. (The 4 defined in P&P plus the extra attack Turbine grants at BaB +1) TWF should grant 1 Offhand attack, ITWF should Grant 2, GTWF should grant 3, Superior should grant 4 and Turbine's given us another free offhand attack at BaB +1. So with STWF we should have 5 Main hand attacks and 5 Off hand attacks.

If I'm wrong, then what am I missing? :confused:

Basically what you are missing is that GTWF actually adds in 2 extra attacks to compensate for the extra attack that they added at BAB +1. If you read the intent of the TWF feats in PnP basically if you take the feats you get 2x the attacks. That was never the case in DDO because of the extra "free" attack they added in. So, finally in the last mod it actually gives the correct ratio of attacks.

All of the strength bonus, power attack etc.. are balanced for 2x the attack rate for TWF.

They added an off hand attack to the first swing if you take GTWF, so it is on the 1st and 4th swing.

[QuantumFX]

Basically what you are missing is that GTWF actually adds in 2 extra attacks to compensate for the extra attack that they added at BAB +1. If you read the intent of the TWF feats in PnP basically if you take the feats you get 2x the attacks. That was never the case in DDO because of the extra "free" attack they added in. So, finally in the last mod it actually gives the correct ratio of attacks.

All of the strength bonus, power attack etc.. are balanced for 2x the attack rate for TWF.

They added an off hand attack to the first swing if you take GTWF, so it is on the 1st and 4th swing.

That's what I was saying earlier. Bab +16 should be the 4 melee attacks from P&P + 1 Turbine attack and that STWF would bring us to 5 main attacks/5 off attacks. 11 attacks makes no sense in this case.

Man where's Codog or Eladrin to clarify this stuff. :confused:

[EinarMal]

OK, but I'm still counting 10 total attacks...

Attack 1 has RH attack hook, LH attack hook (GTWF)
Attack 2 has RH, LH attack hook.
Attack 3 has RH attack hook (ITWF adds a LH attack hook here)
Attack 4 has RH attack hook (GTWF adds a LH here)
Attack 5 has RH, LH attack hook. (STWF adds another RH attack here)

I think everyone is adding an additional attack from GTWF that's supposed to apply to moving attack (aka Spring Attack or moving attack.)

The release notes could be referring to attack 4.

Well you missed one here for attack 1 LH. attack hook for GTWF

[Mad_Bombardier]

I think everyone is adding an additional attack from GTWF that's supposed to apply to moving attack (aka Spring Attack or moving attack.)

The release notes could be referring to attack 4.Nope. GrTWF already added a LH attack hook to attack 4 (and has since Mod3). The WDA note addition is a LH attack hook to standing attack 1.

[QuantumFX]

Well you missed one here for attack 1 LH. attack hook for GTWF

OK, well that answers the question on why we didn't get STWF in mod 6. We don't need it since we're at the correct number of attacks. 5 Main/5 Off.

[negative]

Well, just to throw this out there, playing around on my level 14 ranger since Mod 6 (besides not noticing the extra LH attack on 1st animation) I've yet to see two numbers pop up on-screen on my 5th animation. I've slowed down my mouse clicks substaintially, and never saw more than one set of numbers pop up. Is this a glitch (similar to what we see elsewhere in the game for things like manyshot and magic missles) and its showing up in the combat log, or are we not getting the extra attack, or am I simply failing at watching my screen :D?

The OP's post seems to indicate we aren't getting the 10th attack.

[Mad_Bombardier]

or am I simply failing at watching my screen? :D/taps nose. :)

[QuantumFX]

Yup, I see your concern. Right now, with the modified GrTWF, we DO have 2 weapon fighting (5 attacks * 2 hands = 10 attacks). If and when they introduce SupTWF, we WILL have 2.2 weapon fighting (5 attacks * 2 hands + 1 bonus RH = 11 attacks).

One additional thing to note is that the rate of attack on TWF is still slightly slower than 1HF/S&B. So, with 10 TWF attacks, you still don't have double the attacks per minute of 1HF. At BAB+16, 1HF = 89 attacks per minute. TWF = 166 attacks per minute (~1.87x faster). With an extra attack per animation from SupTWF in the same amount of time, the ratio increases and TWF actually achieves 2.05x the rate of attack of 1HF. :)

Bringing this reply over here so as to not sidetrack Codog's thread:

Ah!!!! Now I get it! The animator formerly known as a Turbine employee strikes again. In-freaking-credible... I don't know who to have more sympathy for... The coders who have to code around this stuff or Tolero for having to deal with all the threads/flamewars this person has indirectly started.

[Gornn]

Nm

[Mad_Bombardier]

Bringing this reply over here so as to not sidetrack Codog's thread:

Ah!!!! Now I get it! The animator formerly known as a Turbine employee strikes again. In-freaking-credible... I don't know who to have more sympathy for... The coders who have to code around this stuff or Tolero for having to deal with all the threads/flamewars this person has indirectly started.As a followup, I'm really okay with ~1.87x 1HF rate of attack. TWF in PnP only gets 1.75x rate of attack until Epic levels and Perfect TWF (8 attacks per round). So, in light of current fixes to GrTWF and 5th attack implementation, SupTWF really isn't needed anymore. In my opinion, including SupTWF would actually wreck the current balance between the attack styles.

[QuantumFX]

As a followup, I'm really okay with ~1.87x 1HF rate of attack. TWF in PnP only gets 1.75x rate of attack until Epic levels and Perfect TWF (8 attacks per round). So, in light of current fixes to GrTWF and 5th attack implementation, SupTWF really isn't needed anymore. In my opinion, including SupTWF would actually wreck the current balance between the attack styles.

The only saving grace is that it will cost a feat or action points to get. (Really hoping that the Tempest enhancement chain gets broken up so STWF is all by it's lonesome at level 15...)

Another question: How is TWF working for 3/4 BAB classes post mod 6? EinarMal - Care to enlighten us?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Another question: How is TWF working for 3/4 BAB classes post mod 6? EinarMal - Care to enlighten us?I'll field this one. It's beautiful! Pre-Mod6, TWF Bards/Rogues/Clerics were stuck at BAB+10. They had a single 4th attack with it's slowed rate of attack, and no access to GrTWF. (which did not matter so much because GrTWF was only 1 extra attack back then.) Still, it was a sad Mod4 & 5 for TWF Bards/Rogues/Clerics.

But, now at L15, they get BAB+11 and a feat for GrTWF! Which = +2 attacks per animation (+33% attacks per minute/rate of attack) in the same amount of time. It's a happy time for 3/4 BAB class TWFers. :D

[jjflanigan]

Well, just to throw this out there, playing around on my level 14 ranger since Mod 6 (besides not noticing the extra LH attack on 1st animation) I've yet to see two numbers pop up on-screen on my 5th animation. I've slowed down my mouse clicks substaintially, and never saw more than one set of numbers pop up. Is this a glitch (similar to what we see elsewhere in the game for things like manyshot and magic missles) and its showing up in the combat log, or are we not getting the extra attack, or am I simply failing at watching my screen :D?

The OP's post seems to indicate we aren't getting the 10th attack.

You state that you are level 14...until you get to level 15 you won't have the 10 attacks per round. BaB 15 adds in the 5th attack in the attack chain.

Also, the easiest way to test this to see exactly when the attacks come in is to put a a different weapon type in each hand -- i.e. a club in your primary and a dagger in your secondary. Then you just go through the full attack chain and you can see the number of bludgeon vs. the number of piercing...just make sure you are fighting a target you won't miss often otherwise it might take you a bit to get the full attack chain displayed :)

[EinarMal]

But, now at L15, they get BAB+11 and a feat for GrTWF! Which = +2 attacks per animation (+33% attacks per minute/rate of attack) in the same amount of time. It's a happy time for 3/4 BAB class TWFers. :D

Yes, it is great for pure 3/4 BAB characters now with the ability to pick up GTWF.

[Mad_Bombardier]

You state that you are level 14...until you get to level 15 you won't have the 10 attacks per round. BaB 15 adds in the 5th attack in the attack chain.jj, you're so smart. :D

[negative]

You state that you are level 14...until you get to level 15 you won't have the 10 attacks per round. BaB 15 adds in the 5th attack in the attack chain.

Also, the easiest way to test this to see exactly when the attacks come in is to put a a different weapon type in each hand -- i.e. a club in your primary and a dagger in your secondary. Then you just go through the full attack chain and you can see the number of bludgeon vs. the number of piercing...just make sure you are fighting a target you won't miss often otherwise it might take you a bit to get the full attack chain displayed :)

Actually I lied in that quote. I was 14 Ranger / 1 Fighter:D At the time it didn't . .. .ahh ... I dont' what I was thinking listing my level like that.

I did go back last night and do another check when I was solo. I was getting all 10 attacks when watching the red numbers pop up on-screen as well as in the combat log of course.