Need a shove in the right direction

[karnalsyn]

Start with this...I'm still quite new to the game.

I began with a wizard (currently lvl6), and recently unlocked drow. At roughly the 200/400 favor towards drow unlock I had visions of creating a 14bard/2rogue hybrid. Take on a ranged method of damage, and bring a plethera of utility to the group in form of trapping and barding.

Thus far, I'm only 1rogue/1bard. I've begun second guessing my decision in this build already and am hoping for pointers from the community. I see alot of battlebard ideas and spellsinger ideas, but nothing that matches mine... which has has left me doubting things further. My doubts in the build thus far have been mainly due to the increasing number of times I'll end up in a melee situation and due to my stats favoring that of a ranged character over melee (10str, 16dex), I feel like a 6 year old in the batting cages.

I'm a team player more than a solo artist. I look for the best way I can benefit the group as a whole, over trying to become a 1 man wonder. I figured the best way I could do this would be combining 2 utility classes into one. Am I on the right track? I've only ever experienced early game content thus far and am unsure just how drastically things will change as I take my first steps past my level 6 wizard into areas yet unknown to me.

Current character stats are (if I remember correctly):
10 str
16 dex
12con
16 int
10wiz
16cha

General premise for the build was to offer:
group buffing
cc
trapping

Skill point focus would have been on Search, disable, and perform. Then to distribute to others as spare points were available.

Any advice is good advice I always say.
Thanks!

[GuitarHero]

basically, any build that wants to do well in a single class, but add in trapsmithing as an extra feature is going to be rough to play for the first few levels. I've seen lots of characters with your combination that worked out just fine, its just a rough start from the beginning. Also, did you take your rogue level first for the extra skill points?

[karnalsyn]

Yes, rogue came first. Got a tip ingame about that just before I rolled it up.

[Schmackdown]

Taking rogue first does not always make sense. If you have a monster INT and are planning on spacing out your rogue levels you can spend more points natively by taking bard first and rogue at 2 or 3.

[Dailus]

Taking rogue first does not always make sense. If you have a monster INT and are planning on spacing out your rogue levels you can spend more points natively by taking bard first and rogue at 2 or 3.

I would really be interested in seeing where this is the case (seriously). I have had a rogue2/bard14 build with a 16 begining intelligence waiting in the wings for my 32 point build for sometime.

-Dailus

[Schmackdown]

If you haven't already, it would behoove you and anyone planning a bard/rogue build to spend a good amount of time with a character planner. Having a clear picture of what you want to do at each level-up to max out your skills may save you frustration and regret down the road. I spent about an hour planning a 16-int 13/1/2 bard/fighter/rogue build and took the rogue levels at 3 and 10.

http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO/DDOCharGen.html

It's eight extra skill points taking rogue first. Four points in two skills by starting with Rogue, skills that are likely not going to be embellished after level one. What's four points in Swim or Bluff really going to do for you at endgame? In exchange for those eight extra points, you then get to allocate rogue skills non-natively with your following bard levels. I don't really see the value there.

[karnalsyn]

Someone mind describing the differences between warchanter and spellsinger builds please? Things like stat placement, optimal multiclassing choices and feat selection.

I'm loving the bard class the more I look into it. Yet the character I created has left a poor taste with me, and I'm almost positive it was my choice to put rogue into it and try to spread myself too thin. As much as I like the functionality of both bard and rogue, the little shoulder version of me is sitting there telling me to split them up and play them seperately.

[Dailus]

Well I think spellsinger was covered pretty well above, but for a warchanter you need power attack & weapon focus : piercing, Slashing, or blunt. Also inspired dmg, inpired attack1, & inspired bravery 2. Definately a melee oriented specialty. For this you will get increased attack and dmg from your song and a special song that gives -5/- DR for a limited time.
Many people splash a level or two of fighter or barbarian in this multi-class, but I prefer to make my warchanter single classed relying on the songs, drow racial enhancments, and other melee feats. Spells for the warchanter should be used to buff and protect the bard because he is more likely to be up close and personal with the mobs. Warchanter is a poor choice for either a healing or CC spec'd bard imo.

edit : sorry guess spellsinger was spoken about in another thread. You can view it here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=136771

-Dailus

[karnalsyn]

Would creating a 14bard/1ftr/1sor be a beneficial swap to a 14bard/2ftr?

The addition of more mana and greater payouts from wizardry items outweight the additional fighter level?

[Dailus]

With my Bard/Fighter I took the spellsinger line to make up for lowish spell points and that was more than enough. I am not a big fan of splashing sorcerer levels in bards or clerics. You will get more spell points sure, but you will lower your spell DCs and Bab. I had it do do over I am not sure I would have taken 2 levels of fighter. I could have dropped 1 level of fighter, not taken extended spell and had beter DCs and longer unextended durations. Just my take on things.

-Dailus

[karnalsyn]

Are there enough points to take spellsinger and warchanter enhancements? And still take song enhancements later on as well as pluses to attack and damage from drow enhancements?

Is spending 8 points on both of those enhancements common among bards? Or are you restricted to only selecting 1 of them?

[Dailus]

You can only pick one specialty enhancement per class so you will have to choose either warchanter or spellsinger.

-Dailus

[karnalsyn]

Ok then, assuming I stay with the warchanter option.

By comparison, is Fighter2 better for me than sorceror1?
(14bard/2ftr compared to 14bard/1ftr/1sor)

For ftr2 I'm getting a new feat I believe
And for sor1 I'm getting something like 200-250 more spell points and enhanced spell point gains from power/wizardy items?

Any other benefits to those that I'm over looking. I'm trying to go by memory and I'm at work (dont tell anyone) so I could be a bit off. Just seems to me that if the benfits I listed above are correct, then sor1 could outweigh the additional feat, but I'm not sure that if by the time I come close to end game, will I be running out of mana enough to be concerned with the extra sp or not.

Thanks for all the input by the way :) it's been a real help!

[Dailus]

IMO yes you are better off going Bard14/fighter2 over Bard 14/fighter1/sorcerer1 if you are going warchanter. Warchanter is a melee focused specialty so imo you are definately better off splashing a melee class over a spell casting class. Honestly what are you going to use those extra spell points on? If you go the 14/1/1 route you will have more spell points, but lesser DCs. You will have an extra fighter feat and increased buffs for melee with your one fighter level and warchanter, but less bab and fewer hit points. In short you wil have more spell points and more martial feats, but be less in both if you try to split your focus.

-Dailus

[karnalsyn]

awesome, thanks for all your input

[Delt]

I hate to give this advice, BUT...

A relatively new player should just avoid rogues entirely. They are difficult to build and even more difficult to play (nevermind a hybrid build). Despite all the best planning and advice, your rogue attempt is likely to be a comparible failure and destined to become a retired mule in the near future.

It seems, since I just read the other replies in this thread, that you've decided to reroll. Good decision. Go mostly pure bard, imo, as it's impossible to mess that up. Since you are working with drow (and not a 32pt dwarf, WF, etc), I highly recommend putting all thoughts of "battlebard" out of your head, focusing on CHA and CON with a minor in INT (skills). No muss or fuss, and a character that'll be an asset to any group.

When you are more experienced (with both DDO and bards) and have some nice equipment banked, then you should probably look at some multiclassed options for new toons.

Just my 2 cents.

[skraus1]

Bards and rogues are squishy, so they do take skill to melee and not die. However, they are very effective.

Rogue 2/bard 14 is a fine build as is fighter 2/bard 14 or even figher 1/rogue 2/bard 13. I would avoid adding sorc into bard builds, especially melee builds as the costs are really substaintial. Evasion gained by rogue 2 is really a good and under-rated ability.

The problem you probably had with your rogue/bard is that 1) traps are REALLY hard at low levels and 2) melee works better at low levels. Also multiclass builds, except fighter/bards, are at their best at the high levels but are a little harder to level up very early on. For example, take a look at my Zhaffy thread in my sig, which I LOVE at the current cap but had a hard time meleeing between levels 5-8.

The other issue is that rogues need int for skill points and trap skill, which means that is one additional stat that they must have. This makes it harder to make a decent twfing melee toon, which is why Zhaffy is a two-handed fighter.

However, as a drow, twfing is where it's at, and it synergizes well with sneak attack, so you should go with that.

I think you will like this build better for a rogue2/bard 14:
14 str
16 dex (+1 tome to get ITWF sometime before level 9)
12con
14 int
8wiz
16cha
Put your level up points into cha if you want to be more of a caster/melee hybrid.

Take the TWFing feat line and the warchanter enhancemenst.

Feats
1 power attack
3 wf: pierce
6 TWF
9 ITWF
12improved crit
15 extend

As a rogue2/bard 14 has a BAB of 10 at level 15, you won't qualify for GTWFing until 18. Adding one figher level at level 10 or so would fix this and allow you to take GTWFing at 15, although you'll miss out on your improved song at bard 14. It's a give or take.

[TommyBoy]

high diplo really helps when your doing combat. works really well with charm.

[maddmatt70]

I hate to give this advice, BUT...

A relatively new player should just avoid rogues entirely. They are difficult to build and even more difficult to play (nevermind a hybrid build). Despite all the best planning and advice, your rogue attempt is likely to be a comparible failure and destined to become a retired mule in the near future.

It seems, since I just read the other replies in this thread, that you've decided to reroll. Good decision. Go mostly pure bard, imo, as it's impossible to mess that up. Since you are working with drow (and not a 32pt dwarf, WF, etc), I highly recommend putting all thoughts of "battlebard" out of your head, focusing on CHA and CON with a minor in INT (skills). No muss or fuss, and a character that'll be an asset to any group.

When you are more experienced (with both DDO and bards) and have some nice equipment banked, then you should probably look at some multiclassed options for new toons.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with delt. Zhaffy's next post has a potential rogue/bard build which is very difficult to play and is going to really need alot of raid loot/high end loot to be effective as it will need +15 skill items and everything it can in order to increase its hit points to melee effectively. I would go with something more straightforward as delt proposes above..

[skraus1]

I agree with delt. Zhaffy's next post has a potential rogue/bard build which is very difficult to play and is going to really need alot of raid loot/high end loot to be effective as it will need +15 skill items and everything it can in order to increase its hit points to melee effectively. I would go with something more straightforward as delt proposes above..

I am not sure what raid loot you're referring to. Zhaffy only has the stoneskin ring, though not through lack of trying. Rogues all need +15 items at cap, which are not that hard to find anymore. I've pulled 3 +15 DD goggles since mod 6 came online, playing sporadically.

Also, the build I posted was modeled after the Icykind build modified to include 2 levels of rogue. I think statwise the only difference is 2 points of str lower to get 4 more points of int. That is not a major change.

As such, I am guessing you are opposed to the melee component of my build, which is the standard focus, and seems to be what the opp had in mind.

I agree that melee should have ideally 300+ hp, even as support melee. However, other people do melee with their non-dwarf bards and rogues and survive (i.e., 75% of builds on the bard forums). Bards actually have it easier because they can self heal and have displacement up for defense. And having evasion helps a great deal with relatively few hp in the front lines.

Playing squishies in melee is a skill that must be learned by doing it. Playing a tank will not prepare you because it's a different kind of fighting.

[unionyes]

I hate to give this advice, BUT...

A relatively new player should just avoid rogues entirely. They are difficult to build and even more difficult to play (nevermind a hybrid build). Despite all the best planning and advice, your rogue attempt is likely to be a comparible failure and destined to become a retired mule in the near future.

It seems, since I just read the other replies in this thread, that you've decided to reroll. Good decision. Go mostly pure bard, imo, as it's impossible to mess that up. Since you are working with drow (and not a 32pt dwarf, WF, etc), I highly recommend putting all thoughts of "battlebard" out of your head, focusing on CHA and CON with a minor in INT (skills). No muss or fuss, and a character that'll be an asset to any group.

When you are more experienced (with both DDO and bards) and have some nice equipment banked, then you should probably look at some multiclassed options for new toons.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree. A straight bard is a great asset to any party. You can heal (nothing like getting that cleric up in an emergency), buff (best in the game IMO), crowd control (fascinate is the greatest once you can do it well), and inspire competence is my rogues favorite song in the game, considering all the 1's and 2's that I seem to roll when disabling traps.

Bards can also be specialized with enhancement chains like warchanter and spellsinger, both greatly appreciated assets to any party.

If you need any more 'uniqueness', my humble opinion would also be to wait until you have some nice loot in the bank. For any trap rogue, decent equipment is a must, and for a part rogue it is even more so a must, especially since the DC's seem to have been boosted up in the new mod. May as well give your multiclass rogue a good start by having int and wisdom items or clickies, rogue skill items (for disable, open lock, search, and spot). I can tell you from experience that it isn't much fun in a group when you as the rogue can't find a trap, and if you throw a level or two of rogue in there it will be expected of you.

[karnalsyn]

The problem you probably had with your rogue/bard is that 1) traps are REALLY hard at low levels

Actually no. I was only a 1bard/1rogue, but any trap I encountered in that short lived character I overcame with great ease.


and 2) melee works better at low levels. Also multiclass builds, except fighter/bards, are at their best at the high levels but are a little harder to level up very early on.

The other issue is that rogues need int for skill points and trap skill, which means that is one additional stat that they must have. This makes it harder to make a decent twfing melee toon, which is why Zhaffy is a two-handed fighter.

These 2 combined were the initial reasons for my plight on my build. I did plan for it though. I made that character with ranged combat in mind. I had taken rapid reload and was on the verge of exotic wep: repeater. But in any solo'ing situation, I would inevitably find myself in a melee situation. It was in those instances where I couldnt hit anything properly, and blew portions of mana just to keep myself alive against 2 kobolds in a solo mode dungeon run.


I've since scraped this character. And am now a 2bard/1ftr. Going down the TWF chain, currently using a +1 flaming Rapier in my mainhand and a Sickle of Sypheros in my offhand. I am completely obliterating competition. Even at 1bard/1ftr I was taking on quests with ease. I almost solo'd all of waterworks. If not for the named mobs being a bit too tough for me. But now I'm 3rd level and I think I'm going to make another attempt tomorrow after work. Currently I'm solo'ing quests from the wayward lobster and the first few quests in the marketplace on normal mode.

It's truely been a night and day experience.

In retrospect I do think my build idea I posted above would have become a decent support character. But I think its a challenge I'm more willing to take on after I've broken my DDO virginity as I'm still fairly noobie.

Thanks to everyones patience with my call for help, I look forward to finding myself a new home here on the bard forums :)