Enough with the Class Balance Complaints Already

[Xaymaca]

Who said that Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) classes were supposed to be balanced? Other MMO's, that's who.

Class balance is based on either solo or PvP. It has no place in D&D, nor DDO.

Each class has it's own specific function: Fighters/Casters/Healers/Rogues/Others. Since they have such different roles, they need each other to tackle the content as a whole.

Sure, there are certain quests where you don't need a fighter (or maybe just one). There are also many quests where you don't need a rogue. And even some where you really don't need a caster (though it certainly helps).

The last outcry for "balance" was after Mod 5 where fighters weren't really needed a lot. The devs listened and gave us Mod 6, the "you better have melee dmg portals click auto-fire and grab a beer" mod.

Fighters matter now...happy?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

So...you want the discussion about class balance to stop, and you make a post about class balance?

This will do nothing but stoke the fire...

Best thing to do is not post anything if you want it to stop.

By the way, Im with ya on the whole "make it go away!" thing...I feel melee have been thrown a bone
this MOD.

[cforce]

Hey, bottom line is: good class balance => more broadly entertained player base => more subscription $ => more development activity => more content and longer lifetime 'til servers go dark.

When stuff gets too narrow (ie, certain classes/builds obsolete), players, on average, get bored faster. They leave, and budget dries up, and the game stagnates.

I'll take better balance, please. Better balance == healthier MMO!

[cforce]

Although, not to come across as too one-sided: adding content that requires a particular singular strategy to defeat to ensure class representation *does not equal Good class balance*. The problem is important; this solution (portals which require melee damage) is not a very good solution!

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Although, not to come across as too one-sided: adding content that requires a particular singular strategy to defeat to ensure class representation *does not equal Good class balance*. The problem is important; this solution (portals which require melee damage) is not a very good solution!

Agree. But its a step in the right direction.

[Spectralist]

Class balance is based on either solo or PvP. It has no place in D&D, nor DDO.


Class balance may not matter that much in PnP but that's because you have an active DM to make sure everyone is challenged and entertained. In DDO we have no such thing. And balance is much more important to make sure everyone is having a good time.

[Hendrik]

Yea, I want my Bard to have the DPS of a Barbarian and the nuking spell power of a Sorc!

:rolleyes:

[Xaymaca]

So...you want the discussion about class balance to stop, and you make a post about class balance?

You're right, B2. My original intent was to point out that classes in D&D in general aren't balanced. Fighters start out overpowered but plateau at some point and finish weak. Casters start out weak and finish overpowered.

The fact is that fighters should be happy that casters (arcane mainly) are overpowered because it make the battles easier. Alternatively, casters need to know that the fighters will grab aggro away from them so they can blast/banish/hold/etc.

[Jarlaxel]

Its no fun playing a class that others don't want in their LFMs because they are not needed. Its no fun playing a class when another class can do the same exact thing but better. This game needs to take the approach balanced but different. That does not mean equality or the same. The problem with this mmo is certain classes are more useful than others on the majority of the quests. I applaud people who start mature, articulate, and well thought out balancing threads because it points out the flaws in the system. I am not an addvocate for nerfing, but for fixing certain aspects of classes.

[Angelus_dead]

The last outcry for "balance" was after Mod 5 where fighters weren't really needed a lot. The devs listened and gave us Mod 6, the "you better have melee dmg portals click auto-fire and grab a beer" mod.

Fighters matter now...happy?
Unfortunately, the Shroud raid DID improve class balance, so that you want more than just sorcs and clerics in a party.

It was not an optimal way to address the problem, but it does leave the game better than it was, in a local context. Unfortunately, the balance approaches taken in mod6 have moved the game design further away from an overall balanced solution: mages are still overpowered in the quests of mod4 and mod5, and there is no impression that will ever change.

[Angelus_dead]

You're right, B2. My original intent was to point out that classes in D&D in general aren't balanced.
That is an error in the game design, acknowledged by the authors. It is a mistake to duplicate someone's errors.

[Xaymaca]

I guess to me balance means that everyone has the same effect and that all classes have the same impact.

Based on a pure balance theology, that means every quest could/should be able to be done by any six classes (i.e. six fighters can finish a quest just as well as six clerics). That is balance, but D&D should never be like that, and DDO isn't like that.

You need a mix of classes to finish the quest (most of the time, looking at the entire content as a whole), so asking for balance isn't rational.

[Xaymaca]

mages are still overpowered in the quests of mod4 and mod5, and there is no impression that will ever change.

That's my point (kind of). Mages are the powerful ones the higher level you go up. That's the way D&D has always been. Asking for fighters to be equal to that power goes against all D&D logic.

[Angelus_dead]

Asking for fighters to be equal to that power goes against all D&D logic.
No, it does not, as explicitly written in the PHB and DMG.

[transtemporal]

My solution to complaining about class balance is not to post or post in threads about class balance... arrrggh too late! **** you Xaymaca and your cunning not-complaining thread about class balance!

But while I'm here, sorcs are way underpowered and need some love. Devs, do it. :D

[Xaymaca]

No, it does not, as explicitly written in the PHB and DMG.

Touche, Angelus_dead.

But pure balance means that a fighter and mage can have the same impact on the same content at all levels (though programming that would be a miracle). And perhaps that is true. A Fighter can use banishing weapons just like a caster can poof a devil with the banish spell.

[herzkos]

to me, balance means that each class brings something
to the table. All sorc (cleric, bard) parties are a nice
novelty, but I don't think it's in the long term interest
of the game to have everyone roll up one type of
character and play that class exclusively. If the game doesn't
maintain some type of class balance, that is what we will get.
I'm glad that the dev's made an effort to get melee types involved
in mod 6 (haven't run any of it yet) because it encourages a
diverse class base for the future growth of the game. I am
discouraged in the manner in which it was done. Having an obstacle
with only one solution, especially when that solution is a complete
time waste, is a bad idea. Really, when the tanks start wailing away
on the portals, is there any chance they're not going to take it down?
from my understanding, it's only a matter of time and how much
damage their melee attacks do. As for auto attack, I don't have
auto-attack on any of my hotbars on any of my characters
because I believe that its too much of a lazy way out.
(plus my first character was a ranger who had it on 24/7 and
as we all know,
ranged fighiting + tab-targeting + auto-attack = aggro from mobs and
from players)

[Xaymaca]

As for auto attack, I don't have auto-attack on any of my hotbars on any of my characters because I believe that its too much of a lazy way out.

Trust me, after you click "attack" for the 3,500th time on the same portal, you'll add it to your hotbar.

[Vorn]

How many clicks does it take to get the chewy center of shroud portal pop?
1
2
3
<crash>
3, if you are a barbarian!
:)

[MrCow]

As for auto attack, I don't have auto-attack on any of my hotbars on any of my characters because I believe that its too much of a lazy way out.

No need, it comes on your HP/SP bar.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/autoattack.png

[Spectralist]

Based on a pure balance theology, that means every quest could/should be able to be done by any six classes (i.e. six fighters can finish a quest just as well as six clerics). That is balance, but D&D should never be like that, and DDO isn't like that.

We'll have to disagree there. I believe that to be the ideal state of balance. The classes should create an equal but different way of doing things. An unattainable ideal but one that should always be worked towards.

[Donnie]

Gotta say though, watching a bunch of old dudes whine like little babies is pretty amusing.

Beyond that, people need to stop being such drama queens. Especially the people who are obviously intelligent but take things WAAAAAAAY to seriously with long emotional rants and heart wrenching goodbye threads. DDO on the forums really stands for Dungeons & Dragons (soap) Opera.

All I can say is I remember every stage of this game, from beta to the present, and will never forget the months and months (over a years worth) of ranting about how melees were totally overpowered. Now the casters get some love and its its like many people totally forgot about that.

Putting all that into perspective, things obviously have the potential to change a lot over time. All we can do is give feedback and hope Turbine makes the right decisions. Of course, I hope some realize that giving feedback doesn't have to equate with being a huge rooster.

[krud]

When stuff gets too narrow (ie, certain classes/builds obsolete), players, on average, get bored faster. They leave, and budget dries up, and the game stagnates.

true, but it seems many people's idea of "obsolete" means "My once all powerful <insert class/race> is now out dps'ed/out killed by <insert different class/race>! DDO you've forced me to reroll again!"

[Cowdenicus]

true, but it seems many people's idea of "obsolete" means "My once all powerful FIGHTER is now out dps'ed/out killed by Flavor of the week ! DDO you've forced me to reroll again!"

Edits in Red for clarification from all the whines I have seen lately.

[herzkos]

No need, it comes on your HP/SP bar.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/Ukenburger/Forum/autoattack.png

lol, learn something new everyday. Now i'm truly disappointed :D

[Attomic]

Although, not to come across as too one-sided: adding content that requires a particular singular strategy to defeat to ensure class representation *does not equal Good class balance*. The problem is important; this solution (portals which require melee damage) is not a very good solution!

Don't forget that a lot of the monsters added in this mod have substantial SR but not extra-high AC...

[Xaymaca]

Don't forget that a lot of the monsters added in this mod have substantial SR but not extra-high AC...

Great point, Attomic. I've noticed that my Paladin 16 can use power attack all the time with the new content and continually hit with no problem. Something I'm not used to.

[Vorn]

It doesn't seem an unreasonable request to ask for specific fighter prestige enhancement lines (or for other PrC enhancement lines for other classes as well). Now to do it without either whinging or being considered to be whinging is, however, challenging.:)

[Xaymaca]

It doesn't seem an unreasonable request to ask for specific fighter prestige enhancement lines (or for other PrC enhancement lines for other classes as well). Now to do it without either whinging or being considered to be whinging is, however, challenging.:)

Very true, Vorn. I would like Prestige Class Enhancements, not to make me more powerful, but to give more variety to my build and to give me the class traits that I can get on PnP. It'll never make me out damage a sorc, but I would never expect to either.

[baddax]

That's my point (kind of). Mages are the powerful ones the higher level you go up. That's the way D&D has always been. Asking for fighters to be equal to that power goes against all D&D logic.

DnD logic? flying dragons? teleport, etheral, astral and matrerial planes? vampires, ghost and orcs? If that is not an oxymoron then i have never seen one!

[Brutous]

Who said that Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) classes were supposed to be balanced? Other MMO's, that's who.

Class balance is based on either solo or PvP. It has no place in D&D, nor DDO.

Each class has it's own specific function: Fighters/Casters/Healers/Rogues/Others. Since they have such different roles, they need each other to tackle the content as a whole.

Sure, there are certain quests where you don't need a fighter (or maybe just one). There are also many quests where you don't need a rogue. And even some where you really don't need a caster (though it certainly helps).

The last outcry for "balance" was after Mod 5 where fighters weren't really needed a lot. The devs listened and gave us Mod 6, the "you better have melee dmg portals click auto-fire and grab a beer" mod.

Fighters matter now...happy?


Sigh...... depressed now...... sigh.........

[Snoggy]

It doesn't seem an unreasonable request to ask for specific fighter prestige enhancement lines (or for other PrC enhancement lines for other classes as well). Now to do it without either whinging or being considered to be whinging is, however, challenging.:)

Hammer meet nail! You're absolutely right. It's not an unreasonable request. But like you say, the really hard part is finding a thread where the OP is doing it without coming off in the prototypical MMO "X class is gimp" or "nerf this that and the other thing" style.

[Hvymetal]

Hammer meet nail! You're absolutely right. It's not an unreasonable request. But like you say, the really hard part is finding a thread where the OP is doing it without coming off in the prototypical MMO "X class is gimp" or "nerf this that and the other thing" style.
Going back to that other thread I am looking in the OP's first post where he asked for anyone else to be nerfed, as far as I can tell he was basically asking what they had for fighters, perhaps you would be so kind as to point out where he asked for a nerf to anyone else?

[Kalari]

The thing that bothers me about the multi posts about imbalance is basically many (not all) but many of the threads I read scream for balance while really saying "I want my race/class/build to be the most uber. And while many have made eloquantly passionate post for their causes, it is almost always the same argument. Such and such gets this so why cant I? And no matter how Intelligent the thread starts out after awhile its like watching a lame horse get flogged.

Ive also read many intelligent posters who have asked "why does everything have to be perfect?" And I have to agree, ive never understood the need to have characters without flaws. But I will say this, that its not just DDO mentality, ive seen plenty of PNP gamers who suffer from this. We all know the type the real cheesers who will use about 3+ books to make an ubber character full of prestige classes and ridiculous feats so that they can be the badass of the party. To me the sad thing is that DDO is starting to seem to be full of those guys and they are number 2 on my list of types of players I try to avoid and do not particularly like. (#1 being rules lawyers who if I could Id disintergrate the moment they start arguing with the DM or reaching for a manual during a tatical run).


Now this is not to say those who have worked hard to get to the max lvl dont deserve to feel their most powerful. But In my mind if your effective in how you play your character why should it matter if another race/class is stronger? I know I probably suffer from Noobitis, or dont get it. But im sadden to see such such eloquence and intelligence wasted on rants about balance when there are other game features that could be championed for that will make the game balanced in itself. Like all of those players who wish for role play but get mostly hack n slash.

I love DDO and I for one am very glad I played the game before immersing myself in the forums because alot of people on here are scary its not a knock its true. I know if I had come here first Id probably not have played this game too long. Who wants to pay 15 dollars a month with people who will treat you as inferior if you want to make a character who is flawed? Or are just having a bad day and decide that something in the game isnt right with you, only to have people blantely insult you for feeling that way? I dont know if this is just a personality trait that some show in the forums only cause ive met and run with very nice people in game. But some of the attitudes in general really make me timid about posting period and would have definately made me afraid to play since im a shy type in the first place. I just think there is too many who want perfection of their toons over the overall well being of the game and thats just my feeling on that maybe im reading the posts threads wrong or not getting the posters true feelings on their arguments but it just seems to be the same I want to be perfect and nothing else matters.


I know its not for everyone but I enjoy having flawed characters, something of a challenge to make them stronger as I go along. I guess to me having a character actually slowly grow is as pleasurable as being able to rip threw the game for some. But the big difference I see is, probably 2-3 yrs down the road i'll still be enjoying my girls as they are and not screaming about being bored. I know some will take my post as a knock and you know what its late so im not even going to try to make it not seem that way. I just dont get that their is so much focus is on strong builds, and so many cries for what some have and some others dont instead of enjoying the game. Id much rather see stuff that inspires character interaction along with challenging quests and fighting but till that happens im going to enjoy being a noob and loving the content I have already, and anticipating any new things that will make the game even more enjoyable.

[muffinlad]

Yea, I want my Bard to have the DPS of a Barbarian and the nuking spell power of a Sorc!

:rolleyes:

I want my Bard to have the DPS of a Sorc, and the nuking spell power of Barbarian...so ha!


Errrr.......nevermind.

muffingimp.

[DSL]

Ive also read many intelligent posters who have asked "why does everything have to be perfect?" And I have to agree, ive never understood the need to have characters without flaws. But I will say this, that its not just DDO mentality, ive seen plenty of PNP gamers who suffer from this. We all know the type the real cheesers who will use about 3+ books to make an ubber character full of prestige classes and ridiculous feats so that they can be the badass of the party. To me the sad thing is that DDO is starting to seem to be full of those guys and they are number 2 on my list of types of players I try to avoid and do not particularly like. (#1 being rules lawyers who if I could Id disintergrate the moment they start arguing with the DM or reaching for a manual during a tatical run).

Hear! Hear!

Really, it's up to your DM to curb those 2 player behaviours. The first is a frequent problem, and DMs have to realize that just because WotC published something doesn't mean they have to allow it in their game. Pick and choose what you allow beyond the core books, and your campaign will be better for it. Besides, the most fun and memorable characters that I know were not planned out, but rather evolved. Rules lawyers can be a problem, but the DM should be willing to put them in their place. Nitpicking over rules slows everything down, and as a DM, if I/we can't find or resolve something within 1-2 minutes, I make a ruling and move on. If you can't deal with that, then find another game - I have no shortage of willing players.

I'm fine for adhereing to the established rules whenever practical, but spending an hour resolving whether you are entitled to an attack of opportunity is far from practical. I know people who would actually call up WotC's hotline to try and get a ruling before proceeding, which is patently ridiculous. This shows an inherent mistrust of your DM, which then begs the question of why you're playing with that person.


As to DDO class imbalance: it's true that fighters are weaker now relative to many of the other classes, and equally true that this is part of the D&D high-fantasy paradigms, but it does seem that fighters haven't really gotten anything new in a while. I believe that in any MMO, and particularly in one based on D&D rules, class balance in an elusive thing, and tends towards the see-saw trend that we are seeing. Will melees (fighters in particular) swing back into the forefront of character power? Perhaps, though the nature of casters (arcane and divine) suggest otherwise, but the ideal balance would be one where each class would prefer to set out with a good mix of the others, without feeling that any one class is necessary. Lately, I believe that Turbine has done a lot of paying attention, and done much (in many ways) to try to equalize the usefulness of each class, without falling into the trap of directly nerfing too many abilities.

[Snoggy]

Going back to that other thread I am looking in the OP's first post where he asked for anyone else to be nerfed, as far as I can tell he was basically asking what they had for fighters, perhaps you would be so kind as to point out where he asked for a nerf to anyone else?

When you've been around the block a few times in various MMO's, you tend to realize threads that state that one class is MASSIVELY superior to another class, or that one class is USELESS because of another class ...

are indirectly suggesting that one class either be buffed up or the other class be nerfed.

So as to attain ...

BALANCE.

Ya dig?

[Rissten]

well, imo PnP has balance yes caster are powerful in PnP but limited unlike DDO! PnP casters get spells per day! ie: 2 1st level spells and 1 second and that's it until the caster rest! Let's do it just like PnP and get rid of SP! (wonder how many casters would cry and whine about that)

[BlueLightBandit]

well, imo PnP has balance yes caster are powerful in PnP but limited unlike DDO! PnP casters get spells per day! ie: 2 1st level spells and 1 second and that's it until the caster rest! Let's do it just like PnP and get rid of SP! (wonder how many casters would cry and whine about that)

My caster only gets a set number of spells per day, specifically limited by the amount of mana he has. Of course, after doing the math it ends up being more spells per day than in pen and paper, but that's to account for the overinflated hit points of the mobs and the lack of spells available in game.

I know it's not the popular decision, but my personal opinion is that anybody who asks for balance is simply saying they are upset about their character. I also take a pragmatic approach regarding the subject, and instead of taking the time to understand and consider their complaint, I just jump in game and kill stuff with one of my nine characters, 1 sorc, 1 barb, 2 clerics, 1 pally, 1 ranger, 1 bard, 1 rogue, and one ker-azy AC based shield wearing barbarian... with mana. If people are so willing to complain about balance without actually experiencing both sides of the fence, then they're just saying that "the grass is greener over there", and I pretty much think they're not seeing the forest from the trees.

Besides, like people have said before, balance doesn't exist in a D&D styled adventure. It's not supposed to. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses, and thusly it's own roles. DDO players for the most part understand this, and run with it. There are a few exceptions where people make crazy combinations to cross those lines (batmans and 1 fighter/15 caster builds) and of course those characters are giving up something in order to get what they want, which is how it should be.

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I hate balancing!!
In PnP a balanced character was needed...as my evil dm would find ways to exploit an unbalanced character...

In DDO balanced is gimped! Why, I started my first 5 or so characters balanced and they couldnt hit anything, disarm anything or find anything...

Min/Max is definately the way to go!...That is what special needs gear is all about...

Wait...you are talking about all the caster hate...
and how the fighter types used to be 3-4 per group...
rogue/caster/ranger was an option....
and one cleric was all any party ever needed...

lol.
the times...they is a changing! :eek::p

[Angelus_dead]

Besides, like people have said before, balance doesn't exist in a D&D styled adventure. It's not supposed to.
There's a book called the "Dungeon Master's Guide". If you're read it, you'd know that balance IS supposed to exist in D&D.


Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses, and thusly it's own roles.
And that is called "balance".

[sumnz]

Casters deserve their time in the sun, and in pnp and ddo that is the end game. Before the level cap was raised from 10th, you would see groups with 4 tanks, a cleric, and whatever other poor schmuck was lying around (usually a caster for perma haste, and woe to you should the tanks haste be up and you have wasted your mana on stupid things like killing monsters or not buffing them) Now you can get away with one and in some cases none, and they throw a fit like the previous times were what it was suposed to be like all through the game. I have a 16th wizard and paladin, and personally I enjoy the fact that at the high end I can now find groups for either, even if one is already in the party. The days of 4 tanks, one wizbuffbot, and one cleric are dead and gone, and should remain that way.

Oh and fighters arent worthless, they still do the job they were designed to do, take hits, have a high ac, and intimidate with a splash of cc from trip, stunning blow, and versatility in weapons like the big 5. Most well built tanks are still having fun, its the ones that sacrificed everything to be blenders that are finding themselves slipping in the kill charts behind the fingering sorcerors that are doing the majority of crying.

[baddax]

If you think barbs crit to much and do to much dps, sorc have to much spell points, the ranger tempest feat is to powerful i would say instead of calling for them to be nerfef you should be on you character planner planning your next babr,sorc or rgr tempest build!

[Depravity]

Don't forget that a lot of the monsters added in this mod have substantial SR but not extra-high AC...

Didn't read the whole thread yet, but wanted to add that there's a lot of time between shrines in the vale quests.
My only highby is a wizard, so I'm painfully aware of it. I'd like to point out that this, somewhat subtly, enhances melee types - when your caster runs out of juice, he's often near useless. Melee types, on the other hand, can continue pretty much the same regardless of distance between shrines (well, the zerger screaming for heals is toast, but we don't care about him :) ). I'm throwing out alot of extended buffs at the beginning of these quests simply because I can't expect to fry everything in my path.

Simply altering mana availability is having a good effect on balance.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Trust me, after you click "attack" for the 3,500th time on the same portal, you'll add it to your hotbar.

Yup I added it back to my cleric, barb, and even sorc's hotbar after my very first shroud run. *yawn* no skill in clicking 1000 times while standing in place so I mgiht as well let it autoclick while I take 30 seconds to go grab a fresh drink

[Kistilan]

There's a book called the "Dungeon Master's Guide". If you're read it, you'd know that balance IS supposed to exist in D&D.


And that is called "balance".


The huge problem with balance in D&D vs balance in DDO is the fact that even if said fighter w/toughness feat can get now 300 hps+ by level 16 and a barbarbain 400+, the freak'n casters (npc casters) have unlimited mana. That's where the balancing issue comes into play. Then you find that the wizards and sorcerers have more mana too to compensate for the lack of spell ability compared to the cost of spells and the fact that npcs can lob spells all day long.

And this in turn causes a rigamaroll of unbalanced issues. D&D classes are all balanced, you're correct. They're balanced as in one character brings THIS THIS AND THIS to the Table, totalling THIS VALUE, and the following powers and abilities hit dice attack table etc for another character equal THIS THIS AND THIS at the Table. Now then, another truth is that wizards start out underpowered and warriors start out underpowered.

However, I read someone stating this is where they come to a crossroad at some point and the wizard eclipses the warrior, who eventually takes his place at the lower end of the spectrum. I don't really think that's true because a warrior continues to become a feat-fighting machine with a great attack bonus. Provided he has a few magical trinkets to augment his anti-magic abilities, he is kept on par with other classes. On top of that, he's much more skilled in combat than how DDO portrays a typical fighter.

For instance, we get fighter's tactics. Like Trip and Sunder and Improved on those 2. The problem where this ability becomes underpowered is that a coup de grace shot cannot be made!!! Fighters have a long bloody history of 1-shotting their opponent, no matter how many hps they have, and it hasn't always been called VORPAL. A lot of things like coup de grace ie "called shots" would be very helpful to giving back to the fighter community.

Imagine if a cleric cast cometfall and knocked all 5 mobs with 500 hps down, and 5 fighters rushed and coup de graced them. Now THAT is strategic, well-balanced and fair. It also encourages the dynamics of group-function and works only with things that have an anatomy that the average fighter can understand. Things like this are needed in the D&D Online World, not nerf the spellcaster pools or give the fighters more hit points and better weapons.

[Depravity]

Coup de grace is a huge effect in tabletop, when players remember it.

Iiirc the mechanic is that any helpless enemy - held, stat damaged to a 0, unconscious, but not stunned (stun/daze is a tad overpowered in DDO) or simply prone, can be hit once as a full round action. It autocrits, and the subject must make a fortitude save vs the damage dealt.

Makes the "overpowered" WotAII looks like child's play, neh?

Actually, this would be a great mechanic - multi second click like bluff, if it goes off and enemy is still susceptible, they're making a saving throw. Interruptible, so it's hard to pull off in the thick of a battle (PnP allows an attack of opportunity, I think), it would make a sweet 'cleanup' option for melee types.

[Kistilan]

Coup de grace is a huge effect in tabletop, when players remember it.

Iiirc the mechanic is that any helpless enemy - held, stat damaged to a 0, unconscious, but not stunned (stun/daze is a tad overpowered in DDO) or simply prone, can be hit once as a full round action. It autocrits, and the subject must make a fortitude save vs the damage dealt.

Makes the "overpowered" WotAII looks like child's play, neh?

Actually, this would be a great mechanic - multi second click like bluff, if it goes off and enemy is still susceptible, they're making a saving throw. Interruptible, so it's hard to pull off in the thick of a battle (PnP allows an attack of opportunity, I think), it would make a sweet 'cleanup' option for melee types.

Yeah, and a full-round in DDO is what, 6 secs or 10 secs? So the ability, providing a prone status, would be able to be used between 6 and 10 times a minute. Way better than a WotAII. And I still like WotAII because it doesn't require a prone or helpless state for the enemy to die.

[Griphon]

If you think barbs crit to much and do to much dps, sorc have to much spell points, the ranger tempest feat is to powerful i would say instead of calling for them to be nerfef you should be on you character planner planning your next babr,sorc or rgr tempest build!

Right. Cuz all we need are servers full of Barbarians, Sorcerers and Rangers, yeah? The other classes don't -matter- enough.

You have no idea how your statement justifies the calls for more balance between the classes, do you?

[Depravity]

Yeah, and a full-round in DDO is what, 6 secs or 10 secs? So the ability, providing a prone status, would be able to be used between 6 and 10 times a minute. Way better than a WotAII. And I still like WotAII because it doesn't require a prone or helpless state for the enemy to die.

Prone isn't enough for a coup de grace - opponent must be helpless. In PnP terms that is pretty much only stat 0, unconscious, and held. All states that already spell doom for whatever is hit with them. If you held it to those three states, it would probably blend into gameplay pretty well without upsetting balance. CC casters would be happy, melee would be happy, people who refuse to do anything other than spam FoD wouldn't be, but who cares? This would be a good tactical ability, and mostly useful for the ends of fights with groups of mobs.

A PnP round is 6 seconds. I wasn't proposing a 6 second cooldown, but a six second activation time - you have to pause and line up the perfect shot before beheading your opponent. Maybe a cooldown in the ten second neighborhood to keep from abusing short-term disable effects. Not that I can think of any off the top of my head, but still.

My point was that the saving throw (which most of the WotAII nerf proponents claimed was too high, because it could end up better than FoD) on coup de grace would be insanely high - barbs critting for 150-200 points would pretty much be guaranteed a kill. The death strike's maybe 35 on a completely built for it character doesn't seem too bad compared to a 200.

BTW - building a WotAII rogue, because it's a nice ability, just useful in a different situation. Not trying to steal the rogues thunder - try pulling an uninterrupted 6 second click when there's a cleaving ogre nearby. Rogue starts by taking out the high priority target, battle ensues, cleanup phase all the hurty-stabby people get a nice whack on something that sorely needs it.

[Kistilan]

Prone isn't enough for a coup de grace - opponent must be helpless. In PnP terms that is pretty much only stat 0, unconscious, and held. All states that already spell doom for whatever is hit with them. If you held it to those three states, it would probably blend into gameplay pretty well without upsetting balance. CC casters would be happy, melee would be happy, people who refuse to do anything other than spam FoD wouldn't be, but who cares? This would be a good tactical ability, and mostly useful for the ends of fights with groups of mobs.

A PnP round is 6 seconds. I wasn't proposing a 6 second cooldown, but a six second activation time - you have to pause and line up the perfect shot before beheading your opponent. Maybe a cooldown in the ten second neighborhood to keep from abusing short-term disable effects. Not that I can think of any off the top of my head, but still.

My point was that the saving throw (which most of the WotAII nerf proponents claimed was too high, because it could end up better than FoD) on coup de grace would be insanely high - barbs critting for 150-200 points would pretty much be guaranteed a kill. The death strike's maybe 35 on a completely built for it character doesn't seem too bad compared to a 200.

BTW - building a WotAII rogue, because it's a nice ability, just useful in a different situation. Not trying to steal the rogues thunder - try pulling an uninterrupted 6 second click when there's a cleaving ogre nearby. Rogue starts by taking out the high priority target, battle ensues, cleanup phase all the hurty-stabby people get a nice whack on something that sorely needs it.

Yeah Helpless. ^_^ Still, it'd be nice to see stat-damagers actually be more useful, as well as helpless (held, FTS, paraylyze, command, etc). It'd take timing sometimes, but free insta-kill chances by fighters would be very appreciated a buff. I too have a guy set up for WotAII, but that's just as much as a set-up requiring pre-existing conditions. If Turbine can do pre-existing conditions of stealth, unagro'd, etc then they surely can do some for a Fighter's Coup de Grace w/Saving Throw vs Fighter's Str (Dex if Finessed).

[Kingfish]

Didn't read the whole thread yet, but wanted to add that there's a lot of time between shrines in the vale quests.
My only highby is a wizard, so I'm painfully aware of it. I'd like to point out that this, somewhat subtly, enhances melee types - when your caster runs out of juice, he's often near useless. Melee types, on the other hand, can continue pretty much the same regardless of distance between shrines (well, the zerger screaming for heals is toast, but we don't care about him :) ). I'm throwing out alot of extended buffs at the beginning of these quests simply because I can't expect to fry everything in my path.

Simply altering mana availability is having a good effect on balance.

I got a 2100+ sp sorc and i occasionally STILL run out of mana between shrines(especially when i forget to turn off extend....grrrrr) anyway, I carry a stack of Tenser's Transformation scrolls and Stoneskins...last 100 or so pts, extended haste, displacement, drop a barkskin and a stoneskin and top it all off with my TT scroll...don my +5 mith bp, whip out my +5 acid longsword and +5 mith light shield and go to the front! OH and carry some CSW pots(everyone SHOULD but thats for another thread)!

[Depravity]

I got a 2100+ sp sorc and i occasionally STILL run out of mana between shrines(especially when i forget to turn off extend....grrrrr) anyway, I carry a stack of Tenser's Transformation scrolls and Stoneskins...last 100 or so pts, extended haste, displacement, drop a barkskin and a stoneskin and top it all off with my TT scroll...don my +5 mith bp, whip out my +5 acid longsword and +5 mith light shield and go to the front! OH and carry some CSW pots(everyone SHOULD but thats for another thread)!

I need to buy some armor to cart around - was doing tenser's scrolls and getting my butt whupped. :) Now it's an assortment of crossbows (paralyze, transmute and banish) and some house D bolts. Not amazingly effective, I do what I can with what I have. But at least you have a contingency plan. I don't know how many times I've pugged coalescence chamber and watched a sorc (bragging about his obscenely large SP pool) burn through his mana way too quickly and then settle down to fairly ineffective wand/scroll usage, if that. Earlier quests with plentiful shrines have fostered some playstyles that just don't work when stamina/discretion is called for.

At least you value melee enough to turn into a secondary fighter type when you run out of juice, instead of whining for DVs.

Also, strange as it is, I like being a little squeezed for mana. I find having to think twice before laying down a half dozen forms of CC is more engaging then "ball, firewall, yawn, repeat". I'm choosing what buffs I give out more carefully, and conserving mana for when it's necessary (In Coalescence, that's usually FoD sniping opposing casters), and generally feeling a little edgy about what I can bring to the table.

[Angelus_dead]

Makes the "overpowered" WotAII looks like child's play, neh?
No. Not in the slightest. CDG allows you to finish off an enemy who has already essentially lost the fight. It's not substantially more powerful than the auto-crits DDO allows for helpless opponents.

[Rickpa]

So...you want the discussion about class balance to stop, and you make a post about class balance?
this MOD.

It would have been silly to say "I want the discussion about something to stop, but I am not going to mention what discussion I want to stop, because that would involve mentioning what I don't want to mention."

People can only do what they can! :D

[DNDJESS]

I get a bit worried when I start seeing too many posts about class balancing. Because that is what killed EQOA. The players kept asking for classes to be more balanced, and the Devs obliged - and it became a huge undertaking that basically held the game hostage for over a year. New content came to a complete stop, and it absolutely killed the game. So please, be cautious about how loudly you yell for class balancing. The consequences could be severe.

[baddax]

Coup de grace is a huge effect in tabletop, when players remember it.

Iiirc the mechanic is that any helpless enemy - held, stat damaged to a 0, unconscious, but not stunned (stun/daze is a tad overpowered in DDO) or simply prone, can be hit once as a full round action. It autocrits, and the subject must make a fortitude save vs the damage dealt.

Makes the "overpowered" WotAII looks like child's play, neh?

Actually, this would be a great mechanic - multi second click like bluff, if it goes off and enemy is still susceptible, they're making a saving throw. Interruptible, so it's hard to pull off in the thick of a battle (PnP allows an attack of opportunity, I think), it would make a sweet 'cleanup' option for melee types.

Just tryting to imagine the graphic for the coup de grace attack! lol i remember that ddo toned down alot of its graphics/ kill shots along time ago? maybe someone can shed some light on this.

[baddax]

I get a bit worried when I start seeing too many posts about class balancing. Because that is what killed EQOA. The players kept asking for classes to be more balanced, and the Devs obliged - and it became a huge undertaking that basically held the game hostage for over a year. New content came to a complete stop, and it absolutely killed the game. So please, be cautious about how loudly you yell for class balancing. The consequences could be severe.

Ok nobody move, I got this monk here and if i dont get my uber ultimate class balance for all my characters the he gets it!

[seldarin]

I havent read all the thread, but have read enough. EVERY class has something to offer a group, those who think they dont, havent played the class, or dont know HOW to play the class. When the shroud/vale first came out, i found it next to near impossible to get in a group with my rogue, unless it was rainbow and why, because the other quests didnt have traps in them. I have been playing my rogue for about 2 years, rebuilt him twice and i am obviously a little naive because i didnt realise that all rogues could do is disable traps. All this time i had been thinking that we could UMD scrolls, like heal/rez when needed, wand whip to help with healing, dual-wield stat dmg/normal dmg, backstab, range mobs with the mix of paralyze/banish/smite/disrupt etc, all that sorta stuff. I have been so deluded all this time, being that i have been doing all those things.

Then suddenly there is a requirement for someone to be able to open doors in shroud part 3, but wait, sorry, no groups want rogues, bit hard to get flagged to open doors in the shroud when no one sees a use for a rogue in the flagging quests. Regardless of the quest, every party should have the basics, and if you are happy with your mix, ie 2 tanks, a caster, a cleric, or whatever, DONT exclude a class just because you pigeonhole them for a specific role, would you rather wait 20 mins to fill your group or would you like to get 2 quests done in the time it has taken you to sit on your ill-informed ass.

The only balance that needs to be is to allow everyone in the game to play what they want. Who cares if the quest doesnt require someone with DPS to dish out 200 points of dmg, take them anyway, no reason they shouldnt have fun too.

If there is content that doesnt necessarily require a particular class, do you expect them to run other stuff 300 times and just skip that mod and move onto the next one?

Everyone if they are a player has a place in a group. Nothing to do with class balance. A fighter doesnt cast spells, and a wizard doesnt have the whole weapon spec tree, every class has differences and it is up to a SMART party leader to augment his/her group and work within limitations if there are any rather than pigeonhole a class and say sorry dont need/want you today.

Same with bards and rangers in a lot of cases, had someone the other day say on the discussion of rangers "i have one, he is my mule". That shows gross ignorance of what classes can do, if you are bored with a particular class, fair enough, dont play it, move onto something else, BUT DONT exclude it from your group JUST because YOU didnt like it, someone else with a bit more nous of that class may very well have made it work like you never even thought of.

Class balance, no need, no requirement, everyone has a place in a group!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I see very little need for more class balance in DDO.

But given the super-duper mob HP and already super inflated enhancement system, I think adding some more enhancements to non-arcanes would be ok.

Also, adding even more powerful weapons would also help bring the weapon using classes closer to the power of the arcanes.

But game design is the real way to go.

Fewer shrines would go a long way toward "balancing" things. But they need to put something in place to make recalling out for mana a bad idea.

As long as LFMs still think they need other classes, I would say there is still balance.

But I personally think it is the players mindset that needs balancing.

I still stick to the opinion that any group can complete any quest.

I also have failed to see any real dominance of kill counts consistantly by one class or another.

The only real out-of-balnce thing I see right now is that a good player needs only lvl up a Sor to have a super powerful toon, while the same good player using a Brb needs to spend (buy) Uber-plat to acquire Uber-weps to make a camparable char.

Despite what people post on these forums, not everyone has all top five weps and extra ones in their banks......far from it.