can you rebuild my bard?

[automater]

Warning: this my 1st post so...


I cant design a build im happy with , so i hoped someone with more experience could help out.

Objective of build in order:
1st: CC - Have high enough DC and SP to be effective
A close 2nd: Melee to hit and damage
3rd: HP and/or AC - looking for some survivability


Basics of what i came up with:

Human

Neutral

Warchanter

16 bard

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

+1 cha @ lvl 4,8,12,16

Feats:
spell pen
greater spell pen
heighten
power attack
WF slash
IC slash
extend




Ive considered changing things like race, splashing 1 fighter level, and warchanter enhancement; but im just not sure what actually works well.
Id appreciate any suggestions based on your experiences.

thanks

[Mad_Bombardier]

Welcome automater! As your first Bard, your build should do well enough through L10 or so. Depending on playtime and style, that may be enough for you. However, if your goal is to make a lasting character that will be effective in all levels, your build falls short.

All characters, Bards included, are great at some things and good at many things, but not good at everything. For example, my Warchanter Bard is a great fighter and buffer, a passable healer, and a poor caster. You have conflicting build and goals. You asked for casting first, then devoted most of your feats to melee. So unfortunately, your current build won't be able to effectively cast spells in the high level content.

If your #1 concern is CC casting, spell DC, and SP then you need Spellsinger and max CHA (preferably Drow with 18 or 20 CHA). A splash of 1 Sorc level will add 250+ SP, but at the cost of: 6th level spells, 1 point of Spell Penetration, and 1 DC on your Heightened spells (in the current level 16 cap).

I see you posted a 28pt build. If you have access to 32pt builds, then Human is a good option. If no 32pt build, then use Drow.

Human (32pt) Extra feat
S16 D8 C14 I8 W8 Ch18

Drow (28pt) Rapier enhancements
S16 D10 C13 I10 W8 Ch18

+CHA at all levels (4,8,12,16)
Feats: Skill Focus UMD (you can respec this at high level when it's no longer needed), Extend, Heighten, Spell Focus:Enchant, Spell Penetration, Improved Critical: Pierce
Enhancements: Spellsinger, Lingering Song, Inspired Attack, Inspired Damage, Bard CHA, Human CHA, Human STR, Energy of Music, Song Magic (if you are healing, too), Improved Spell Penetration.

At end game you should have 34 CHA and, with Heighten+Spellsinger+focus feat+focus item, save DC of 30-31 (depending on whether you take a Sorc level) on your Enchantment spells. In the high level content, DC30 is a good save DC.

If you stick with the highest + weapon you can wield (instead of fancy weapon effects), you should be able to hit and deal some decent damage. AC and HP are not a Bard's strong suits. Use Displacement, Stoneskin, and Haste to avoid enemy damage.

[Teech]

I'm guessing you might not even have unlocked Drow.
I'm no expert but will throw up some thoughts that the real experts can comment on.

If no drow, human but drop str to 14?

Also, re: specialities. I was wondering if it would be possible to take warchanter at low-mid levels and switch to spellsinger at higher levels.
This is because IMO melees are more effective at low-mid and casters more at high. Speccing your bard this way would benefit the groups you join more throughout your levelling process.

Just some thoughts.

[EinarMal]

All characters, Bards included, are great at some things and good at many things, but not good at everything. For example, my Warchanter Bard is a great fighter and buffer, a passable healer, and a poor caster. You have conflicting build and goals. You asked for casting first, then devoted most of your feats to melee. So unfortunately, your current build won't be able to effectively cast spells in the high level content.


This is definitely not the case check out the following build for some ideas on being both very good at melee and casting. It would require you unlocking drow, which IMO make the best Bard builds anyway. It definitely is possible to do well in melee and also still land spells.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128359

[Mad_Bombardier]

This is definitely not the case check out the following build for some ideas on being both very good at melee and casting. It would require you unlocking drow, which IMO make the best Bard builds anyway. It definitely is possible to do well in melee and also still land spells.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128359Sorry to say it, but a 28 Spell DC just doesn't cut it in new, high level content (it's passable when specifically targetting low save mobs). Granted you can probably do well enough with persistant area of effect spells like Dancing Sphere by kiting mobs in and out until they save. But, single target spells with a DC28 are, for the most part, a waste of mana. And that build has no Spell Penetration which means most of your spells will be blocked by Spell Resistance anyway.

I think it's very important, especially for new players, not to try to do too much with a single character. Choose 1 (or 2) aspects and work to improve them. Trying to do too many things makes for unachievable goals and characters that fall short.

[Westerner]

But, single target spells with a DC28 are, for the most part, a waste of mana. And that build has no Spell Penetration which means most of your spells will be blocked by Spell Resistance anyway.


At end game you should have 34 CHA and, with Heighten+Spellsinger, save DC of 29 or 30 (depending on whether you take a Sorc level) on your Enchantment spells. In the high level content, DC30 is a passable save DC.
I'm confused when reconciling these two statements since DC 28 is fairly close to DC 29-30. Can you clarify what DC is needed to be effective on high level content, e.g. in the Vale?

Regarding Spell penetration, can't that be addressed by items and/or enhancements? Can you share your thoughts on what spell pen is needed on high level content, e.g. in the Vale?

Appreciate your feedback.

[Mad_Bombardier]

From my experience in the Vale, I find that...

DC 30 is the number I'd shoot for. I was trying to be generous with 29-30, but actually forgot to include an Enchantment Focus item in the calculation, so that number is 30-31 (corrected that now). My Wizard has a DC33 for Enchantment spells and frequently fails to land spells (unless monsters always roll 20 to auto-save versus my spells :p).

And Spell Penetration +22 is the number I'd shoot for (max possible in-game is currently +26 Spell Pen). For Bards, it's a little easier because Greater Spell Penetration VI (max spell level for Bards) weapons are in the current loot tables. Caster level + feats + enhancements + item (16+2+2+3) = +23 to Spell Pen.

[EinarMal]

Sorry to say it, but a 28 Spell DC just doesn't cut it in new, high level content (it's passable when specifically targetting low save mobs). Granted you can probably do well enough with persistant area of effect spells like Dancing Sphere by kiting mobs in and out until they save. But, single target spells with a DC28 are, for the most part, a waste of mana. And that build has no Spell Penetration which means most of your spells will be blocked by Spell Resistance anyway.

I think it's very important, especially for new players, not to try to do too much with a single character. Choose 1 (or 2) aspects and work to improve them. Trying to do too many things makes for unachievable goals and characters that fall short.

Glitterdust ftw....the bottom line is all caster Bards are weak whether you take a couple of focus + spell penetration feats or not. You are better off with a strong second ability then still being a weak caster at best. The Bard spell selection is not good, you only get 6 feats, and have the spell points power of a level 12 wizard with much worse spells to choose from.

Focusing totally on casting for a Bard is a dead end...

BTW I can land charm monster/hold on plenty of mobs in the new area. You just have to choose the ones to cast it on. Also, when you are doing 120 DPS with GTWF you just kill the mobs you can't cast on...

[Mad_Bombardier]

Glitterdust ftw....the bottom line is all caster Bards are weak whether you take a couple of focus + spell penetration feats or not. You are better off with a strong second ability then still being a weak caster at best. The Bard spell selection is not good, you only get 6 feats, and have the spell points power of a level 12 wizard with much worse spells to choose from.

Focusing totally on casting for a Bard is a dead end...Not necessarily. A highly focused caster Bard can be effective. But, being highly focused on casting/buffing/healing means that your other abilities are secondary. You can still be a perfectly good support combatant (ranged, paralyzers, cursespewers, etc.). You won't have high DPS, but that's not your role. If DPS combat is your chosen role, then you build for that and your casting suffers.

[EinarMal]

I see you posted a 28pt build. If you have access to 32pt builds, then Human is a good option. If no 32pt build, then use Drow.

Human (32pt) Extra feat
S16 D8 C14 I8 W8 Ch18

Drow (28pt) Rapier enhancements
S16 D10 C13 I10 W8 Ch18

+CHA at all levels (4,8,12,16)
Feats: Skill Focus UMD (you can respec this at high level when it's no longer needed), Extend, Heighten, Spell Focus:Enchant, Spell Penetration, Improved Critical: Pierce
Enhancements: Spellsinger, Lingering Song, Inspired Attack, Inspired Damage, Bard CHA, Human CHA, Human STR, Energy of Music, Song Magic (if you are healing, too), Improved Spell Penetration.



OP unless you want to be dissapointed and re-roll do not follow this build. Trying to be a great caster as a Bard is a dead end. At level 20 a Bard is about as good as a caster as a level 12 wizard (with worse spells and fewer feats).

If you want to make a CC caster roll a wizard/sorcerer, everyone I know who has tried to make a Bard like this (myself included) ends up re-rolling to something more combat oriented.

[EinarMal]

Not necessarily. A highly focused caster Bard can be effective. But, being highly focused on casting/buffing/healing means that your other abilities are secondary. You can still be a perfectly good support combatant (ranged, paralyzers, cursespewers, etc.). You won't have high DPS, but that's not your role. If DPS combat is your chosen role, then you build for that and your casting suffers.

Meh...have you tried it? Roll a wizard if you want a strong CC caster.

[EinarMal]

I'm confused when reconciling these two statements since DC 28 is fairly close to DC 29-30. Can you clarify what DC is needed to be effective on high level content, e.g. in the Vale?

Regarding Spell penetration, can't that be addressed by items and/or enhancements? Can you share your thoughts on what spell pen is needed on high level content, e.g. in the Vale?

Appreciate your feedback.

Glitterdust works great in the new Mod with DC 28, and does not require an SR check at all. Mass suggestion also works pretty well as you really only need to hit one mob to serve the purpose of the spell. If you really need to stop a bunch of mobs fascinate is the way to go (it's free and they all fail their save and SR check ;))

[Westerner]

BTW I can land charm monster/hold on plenty of mobs in the new area. You just have to choose the ones to cast it on.
EinarMal, can you elaborate on this? i.e. Which mobs, what save DC's / spell pens are you working with, is Mass Suggestion any good, can Mind Fog help? I am thinking about steering my max-spec'd warchanter a bit towards spells at high levels and would appreciate your insight.

[EinarMal]

EinarMal, can you elaborate on this? i.e. Which mobs, what save DC's / spell pens are you working with, is Mass Suggestion any good, can Mind Fog help? I am thinking about steering my max-spec'd warchanter a bit towards spells at high levels and would appreciate your insight.

Mind fog I have not used it only affects saves not SR, all of the standard orge type mobs can still be charmed with charm monster. For things with SR, I use glitterdust which does not require an SR check. I find this spell to be very helpful as blind mobs seem to behave somewhat erratically and do much less damage.

If you stay pure Bard save DC's for single target mobs are irrelevant, you can use otto's irresistable dance so you just need spell penetration. I am sure if you really wanted to make mobs dance with ottos you would need at least one spell penetration feat if not both.

Personally I keep casting as an option and use glitterdust and AOE type spells like Otto's Sphere and Mass Suggestion.

As a warchanter my suggestion would be to try out heighten + glitterdust. It really helps in my opinion and 28 DC for a cloud spell is pretty solid, it hits enough to make it worthwhile.

The key is that you can fight and cast solid (not spectacular) spells. This gives you lots of options, which is always good. You just have to be smart about what you do.

If you have a bunch of devils with high saves and SR use fascinate or glitterdust. Some stupid troll/orge type then you can mass suggest/charm/dance them.

I might change my enhancements around when I hit level 16 and take up to Spell Penetration III. I am not there yet, so haven't bothered updating it. That would give me 16 +3(Enh.) +3(Item) = 22 for overcoming spell resistance. Then you have otto's irresistable dance that has no save and should land often.

[automater]

Thanks for all the replies and advice. Alot to take in but very helpful. Ive edited my original post to reflect some changes i made (and im sure there will be more) but i think the bottom line is ill have to play him though and make changes to feats and enhancements according to play style and any issues that arise. Im sure itll be fun, just hope it dosnt end in reroll.

[skraus1]

For a first bard, it's not a horrible set up. However, your set up, which has a big casting forcus, could be best served by drow. You are doing the right thing though with a secondary focus on combat because without combat focus you're generally better off making a sorc/wizzie.
You have two dps combinations, which is where most bard builds are at now given then AC generally is worthless for a bard.

First is two weapon fighting. Currently the rave on the bard forums. However, they take a lot of feats. However, they need a decent amount of dex, so it's hard to make a good str based bard that also is casting focused without 32 pointers or drow unlocked. Kopesh works well with this combination.

The second is a large two handed weapon. Much less feat intensive and works well with power attack, which is required for warchanter.

Both are good. However, without 32 point builds or drow, I would go go two handed fighting as you don't need a proficiency now with the master's touch spell and it therefore doesn't require any feats


With that said, I'm assuming you don't have drow unlocked: so I'm going to be focusing on your feats.

Feats:
focus enchant-expendable
greater focus enchant-expendable
heighten-expendable
power attack
WF slash
IC slash
khopesh-unnecessary as you don't have two weapon fighting

I'd replace khopesh with extend and use master's touch for prof with greatwords and axes.

I'm also really torn on the focus feats and heighten. At high levels, you might want to switch these out for spell pen feats as you will have ottos that doesn't require a save. Combat feats could be used instead. Spell points also are going to be very tight.

[EinarMal]

For a first bard, it's not a horrible set up. However, your set up, which has a big casting forcus, could be best served by drow. You are doing the right thing though with a secondary focus on combat because without combat focus you're generally better off making a sorc/wizzie.
You have two dps combinations, which is where most bard builds are at now given then AC generally is worthless for a bard.

First is two weapon fighting. Currently the rave on the bard forums. However, they take a lot of feats. However, they need a decent amount of dex, so it's hard to make a good str based bard that also is casting focused without 32 pointers or drow unlocked. Kopesh works well with this combination.

The second is a large two handed weapon. Much less feat intensive and works well with power attack, which is required for warchanter.

Both are good. However, without 32 point builds or drow, I would go go two handed fighting as you don't need a proficiency now with the master's touch spell and it therefore doesn't require any feats


With that said, I'm assuming you don't have drow unlocked: so I'm going to be focusing on your feats.

Feats:
focus enchant-expendable
greater focus enchant-expendable
heighten-expendable
power attack
WF slash
IC slash
khopesh-unnecessary as you don't have two weapon fighting

I'd replace khopesh with extend and use master's touch for prof with greatwords and axes.

I'm also really torn on the focus feats and heighten. At high levels, you might want to switch these out for spell pen feats as you will have ottos that doesn't require a save. Combat feats could be used instead. Spell points also are going to be very tight.

Very good advice! With a 28 pt. human drop khopesh and use a two hander with masters touch at high levels. I would would also second dropping the focus feats for spell penetration at higher levels. I think the build as you have it looks solid. As skraus1 said, min-maxing a Bard as a caster is defeating the whole point of being a Bard, you just end up with a gimped wizard.

I would probably end up with:
1-Extend
3-WF Slashing
6-Power Attack
9-Heighten
12-Spell Penetration
15-Greater Spell Penetration

This gives you two spells to use in the current Mod Glitterdust for AOE and otto's irresistable dance to hit single targets. For a great early weapon farm Deleras for Carniflex, you can use that for much of the game.

[Lizardgrad89]

Warning: this my 1st post so...


I cant design a build im happy with , so i hoped someone with more experience could help out.

Objective of build in order:
1st: CC - Have high enough DC and SP to be effective
A close 2nd: Melee to hit and damage
3rd: HP and/or AC - looking for some survivability


Basics of what i came up with:

Human

Neutral

Warchanter

16 bard

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

+1 cha @ lvl 4,8,12,16

Feats:
focus enchant
greater focus enchant
heighten
power attack
WF slash
IC slash
khopesh




Ive considered changing things like race, splashing 1 fighter level, and warchanter enhancement; but im just not sure what actually works well.
Id appreciate any suggestions based on your experiences.

thanks

Automater,

I see that you are pretty new to DDO. Welcome!

Let me give you the same advice I give to any new player:

Build a standard Dwarven fighter and run the quests with a goal of 400 favor.

It really only takes a couple of weeks to get to 400 favor, and fighter is the easiest type character to run. By playing a Dwarven fighter, you will get the basics down quickly (including group tactics, etc) and not die very often. Plus, fighters are popular choices in low level groups, so you should get lots of invites.

Once you unlock Drow, a whole new world of possibilities opens up, and you can go make that Bard you want, with the bonus of having a pretty good idea of the gameplay and some experience in the early dungeons. That fighter can then be used as a spare backpack for goodies you don't want to sell but can't use right now.