LFM's, Rangers and rogues are not melee and no DPS

[Mindspat]

Everyone has their own idea on what’s needed to complete a quest. Often enough we’ll see an LFM asking for something while omitting something else. Through most of our experiences we know a player means a lot more then the character, with some exceptions.

Lately I’ve seen a few LFM’s that vehemently omit Rangers and Rogues. Even then, there’s the occasional uninformed “We don’t have enough DPS” whine. And there's nothing more hilarious to hear when someone says "need more melee" to a ranger or rogue - it's like saying "More Cow Bell"!

Thankfully this game provides for the dynamics that permit players to formulate entirely different strategies on any given quest. This has caused a few players to BREAK THE MOLD of LFMs!

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?

*

Running with the Devils on elite (1 sorcerer, 2 bards, 2 rangers and a rogue); one of the best runs I’ve had with the new content even though 2 of the players went AFK and seemed to just want to soak up the exp reward – No party wipes and the adventure was awesome!

The Shroud with only 2 rangers, a rogue, 2 clerics and rest casters; Not Enough DPS!! This was so quick and easy I didn’t have enough time to finish my beer during the first part of the shroud. If you say “Not enough DPS” in group without “melee” don’t be surprised if you get laughed at.

[MysticRhythms]

12 Rangers killing Velah on Elite.

We had a smattering of Rogue and Fighter levels and even a few Bard levels, but everyone had more Ranger than anything else.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Vale exploring....5 Rgrs and a Pallie.....I asked him if he at least had a bow. :)

Maze of Madness.....cant remember exactly, but I think we had 3Clr, 1Rgr, 1Rog......maybe a brd.....went down just fine.....ran the end mob through three blade barriers....worked great.

Lots of good groups without Clrs.........wand healers to the rescue.

With three or more ranged based toons, most quests are easy........lots of baddied will just run back and forth toward the last guy that damaged him.

The only problems I have had with odd ball groups is when they are mostly made of of classes that cannot use wands for healing.

[sirgog]

4 bards, 1 Rogue and 1 Paladin for Stormcleave. Was a blast - every bard was specced very differently - we have a Spellsinger, a Warchanter, a healing-focused bard and a CC-focused one. Last fight - charm everything, kill the Elemental, let Xanti'lar die at the hands of his former minions. Who needs DPS when you have Suggestion?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

1 cleric, 1 caster OR 1 barbarian.

Solo ftw!

[Borror0]

Problem with Rangers:

Rangers, when TWF and built properly, are a very solid class that can contribute very well and truely act as a "melee". Of course, they are shorter on HP (unless dwarf), but they can deal more damage than needed. Even more since Ram's Might. However, many rangers go for bow and this is the real killer. Bow damage, in this game, still is a real joke. Comparing ranged to melee damage is like comparing S&B to THF. So, the difference gets really big. So, when you PuG a ranger, you might either fall on:


That noob with his bow;
That crazy ranger that does amazing things with his bow;
That noob TWF ranger that does countlessly and is a burden to the party;
That well built ranger that leads the kill count;


The problem is that 1 and 3 are the most commons, by a fairly wide margin and that they, both possibility 1 and 3, are a pain to group with as not only their skilsl are lacking, but their playstyle itself is a problem. Yes, you could always PuG that S&B paladin with all Cha, 22ish Str and 30 AC, but he'll be less of a (mana) drain than the rangers as he's got more HP, got LoH, etc.

All classes got their "nightmares", the 600ish HP barbarian, the CK/SF/Acid Fog/FW wizard, the PK/FoD sorc that empties his SPs within the first 5 minutes and then spend the next 15 minutes waiting for a shrine, the bard that doesn't buff (himself included), the Null Cleric that will never heal (no matter if it'll cause a party wipe or not) and waste all his mana in a splitsecond, etc. but, for most classes, chances to have a bad player are lower and/or the benefits far outweight the risks.

Problem with Rogues:

Rogues' problem is somewhat different to the rangers', but there are some difference. The number of rogues that are actually nothing but trapsmith are, sadly, even more common than bad rangers. Sometimes, the problem doesn't lie in the build, rogues are killing machine by their nature, but rather in the player's attitude. Most player think that they are too squishy to fight, that they'll die. Then, you add those who do go and fight... to die. Not any better.

Very few are the rogues that can actually impress a party by leading the kill count, because it is not that easy. It takes skills. Aggro management is pretty much the first thing a rogue must learn if he wants to be helpful at all. It takes tactics, strategy... and well, neither are something I would expect from a PuGGie.

So, what do we get? Rogues that can do the Cabal trap, but finishes with 3-4 kills. So yeah, I can see why they aren't DPS to some people's eye.

[Dailus]

Most of my playing time our group's core is a Ranger being our main melee character, with a rogue and bard (me) playing the off-tank role. We all can stealth and we all heal. After the 3 of us form a group we usually LFM and take what comes. On occassion we add a wizard or two to the mix and/or a cleric, but 9 time out of 10 we have no barbarian, fighter, or paladin. Despite this we usually do very well together and we always have fun.

-Dailus

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Did Rainbow on my Pally, had a Rogue (dwarf strength-based with fighter and pally levels), two wizards, a Cleric and a Fighter. Did you get that? NOTE: a Rogue and TWO Wizards...

Couldn't detect a trap box or ANY of the secret doors.

Then one of the Wizards says, "Does anyone have a Detect Secret Doors clickie?"

I almost fell off my chair laughing!

I wanted to say, "You're a Wizard and there are wands you can buy real cheap in the Tent. And you're level 16???"

50% of the party who SHOULD be able to find a secret door and NADA... :rolleyes:

[Cruzer]

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?

*

Running with the Devils on elite (1 sorcerer, 2 bards, 2 rangers and a rogue); one of the best runs I’ve had with the new content even though 2 of the players went AFK and seemed to just want to soak up the exp reward – No party wipes and the adventure was awesome!

The Shroud with only 2 rangers, a rogue, 2 clerics and rest casters; Not Enough DPS!! This was so quick and easy I didn’t have enough time to finish my beer during the first part of the shroud. If you say “Not enough DPS” in group without “melee” don’t be surprised if you get laughed at.

Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, Chamber of Coalescense, and Let Sleeping Dust Lie: 1 sorc, 1 cleric, 1 barb. No wipes.

Crucible: 2 sorc or 1 sorc.

Any walk up gianthold mission: 2 sorc or 1 sorc.

Running with the Devil Elite - 1 sorc, 1 wiz, 2 clerics, 1 barb, 1 ranger. Wiped many times, ranger had maybe 10 kills. Took 150min.

Still don't need your ranger. :)

[barecm]

I am willing to bet a group of decent rangers can easily take down the new raid.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, Chamber of Coalescense, and Let Sleeping Dust Lie: 1 sorc, 1 cleric, 1 barb. No wipes.

Crucible: 2 sorc or 1 sorc.

Any walk up gianthold mission: 2 sorc or 1 sorc.

Running with the Devil Elite - 1 sorc, 1 wiz, 2 clerics, 1 barb, 1 ranger. Wiped many times, ranger had maybe 10 kills. Took 150min.

Still don't need your ranger. :)

I'm shocked you have a Bard!!!! Didn't you know they are just as bad if not WORSE than Rangers and Rogues???

Oh, wait a minute, you have a Bard so you obviously know how good they are because you've PLAYED one...

Maybe you should reserve comment until you have a high level Ranger or Rogue? Maybe then I wouldn't have to do this: :rolleyes:

[Cruzer]

I am willing to bet a group of decent rangers can easily take down the new raid.

You just need to be able to find 12 on one server.

[Cruzer]

I'm shocked you have a Bard!!!! Didn't you know they are just as bad if not WORSE than Rangers and Rogues???

Oh, wait a minute, you have a Bard so you obviously know how good they are because you've PLAYED one...

Maybe you should reserve comment until you have a high level Ranger or Rogue? Maybe then I wouldn't have to do this: :rolleyes:

I don't list all my alts because its not worth changing my sig all the time. I don't like my bard - I level him and use him only for a haggle bot, and to help out in raids when my other toons are flagged and we need another healer/CC'er. He's 16 too.. I guess I should change my sig AGAIN.

I've had a capped rogue I didn't like playing. I have a ranger at level 12 that I enjoy playing. I'm not the one stuck in bad parties in easy missions like Rainbow in the Dark like you seem to be, so it's possible you should be reserving your comments. I simply stated what was asked, and pointed out that we did just fine without a ranger. Its my group, I'll leave out clerics form the LFM if i feel like it, no matter how many posts go up about "wah let me play my ranger with you!"

[baflin_haverstaff]

Well using my 13 wiz/ 2 rog, I fit in any group very well. I don't take a whole lot of damage most the time even if I am meleeing.
I have a 21 str, 30 int, 29 dex and 186 hp's so far. I don't worry about staying back like I would with my pure caster. I like to have rangers in the group, and like haveing a even mix. But as always you take what you can get most the time and usaully don't have too may problems.

[brshelton]

I am willing to bet a group of decent rangers can easily take down the new raid.

blacklist takes down shroud hard. 6 rangers 3 sorcs 2 clerics and a bard :D

[barecm]

You just need to be able to find 12 on one server.

Easy on Sarlona. Maybe an event brewing???

[brshelton]

Easy on Sarlona.

agreed

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Easy on Sarlona. Maybe an event brewing???

/agreed

[Cruzer]

Easy on Sarlona. Maybe an event brewing???

That would be pretty fun.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Easy on Sarlona. Maybe an event brewing???

I can think of 8 just off the top of my head from the small circle of players I know: Sweetheart, Onlyfrom, Kyeena, myself (obviously ;)), Grinndal, Lykurgos, Sergod, Manatafk, etc..

Honestly, I pug ALOT on Sarlona and, if anything, I see very few "bad" Rangers...

[Milolyen]

Everyone has their own idea on what’s needed to complete a quest. Often enough we’ll see an LFM asking for something while omitting something else. Through most of our experiences we know a player means a lot more then the character, with some exceptions.

Lately I’ve seen a few LFM’s that vehemently omit Rangers and Rogues. Even then, there’s the occasional uninformed “We don’t have enough DPS” whine. And there's nothing more hilarious to hear when someone says "need more melee" to a ranger or rogue - it's like saying "More Cow Bell"!

Thankfully this game provides for the dynamics that permit players to formulate entirely different strategies on any given quest. This has caused a few players to BREAK THE MOLD of LFMs!

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?

*

Running with the Devils on elite (1 sorcerer, 2 bards, 2 rangers and a rogue); one of the best runs I’ve had with the new content even though 2 of the players went AFK and seemed to just want to soak up the exp reward – No party wipes and the adventure was awesome!

The Shroud with only 2 rangers, a rogue, 2 clerics and rest casters; Not Enough DPS!! This was so quick and easy I didn’t have enough time to finish my beer during the first part of the shroud. If you say “Not enough DPS” in group without “melee” don’t be surprised if you get laughed at.

The answer to why this is the case is the same answer to ALL of the "Why are people leaveing rangers/rogues out of their lfm" threads that pop up .... Rangers and Rogues are not a bad player friendly class. Fighter and Barb are classes that are really easy to be a bad player and go unnoticed as being a bad player. This is not the case with Rangers and Rogues. If you are bad at playing either of these classes you tend to stick out like a sore thumb. Not only that but they are difficult classes to play as well so you may be a good player and know what you are doing but still make a bad ranger/rogue due to difficulty of those classes.

All classes have bad players playing them but they are just more noticable with these 2 classes.

Milolyen

[Raithe]

Problem with Rangers:

Rangers, when TWF and built properly, are a very solid class that can contribute very well and truely act as a "melee". Of course, they are shorter on HP (unless dwarf), but they can deal more damage than needed. Even more since Ram's Might. However, many rangers go for bow and this is the real killer. Bow damage, in this game, still is a real joke. Comparing ranged to melee damage is like comparing S&B to THF. So, the difference gets really big. So, when you PuG a ranger, you might either fall on:


That noob with his bow;
That crazy ranger that does amazing things with his bow;
That noob TWF ranger that does countlessly and is a burden to the party;
That well built ranger that leads the kill count;


The problem is that 1 and 3 are the most commons, by a fairly wide margin and that they, both possibility 1 and 3, are a pain to group with as not only their skilsl are lacking, but their playstyle itself is a problem. Yes, you could always PuG that S&B paladin with all Cha, 22ish Str and 30 AC, but he'll be less of a (mana) drain than the rangers as he's got more HP, got LoH, etc.

All classes got their "nightmares", the 600ish HP barbarian, the CK/SF/Acid Fog/FW wizard, the PK/FoD sorc that empties his SPs within the first 5 minutes and then spend the next 15 minutes waiting for a shrine, the bard that doesn't buff (himself included), the Null Cleric that will never heal (no matter if it'll cause a party wipe or not) and waste all his mana in a splitsecond, etc. but, for most classes, chances to have a bad player are lower and/or the benefits far outweight the risks.

Problem with Rogues:

Rogues' problem is somewhat different to the rangers', but there are some difference. The number of rogues that are actually nothing but trapsmith are, sadly, even more common than bad rangers. Sometimes, the problem doesn't lie in the build, rogues are killing machine by their nature, but rather in the player's attitude. Most player think that they are too squishy to fight, that they'll die. Then, you add those who do go and fight... to die. Not any better.

Very few are the rogues that can actually impress a party by leading the kill count, because it is not that easy. It takes skills. Aggro management is pretty much the first thing a rogue must learn if he wants to be helpful at all. It takes tactics, strategy... and well, neither are something I would expect from a PuGGie.

So, what do we get? Rogues that can do the Cabal trap, but finishes with 3-4 kills. So yeah, I can see why they aren't DPS to some people's eye.

This mentality is where most of the misconceptions come from.

I run on Thelanis as well, and most of the rangers I group with (and I only PUG anymore) are better than most of the barbarians and fighters. Most use a combination of ranged (multi-shot does more damage than a barbarian) and TWF, and sometimes sword & board. The reasons why they do better is because they have more choices, can heal, can DPS, can turtle up when needed, and the player running them has learned when each is best. Those other melee classes are usually one-trick ponies with players that haven't learned to adapt.

As for rogues, they are put in a quandary where they have to gimp themselves to do what the playerbase expects from them, thanks to poor design choices by the devs. Still, some hit a very delicate balance and may not be able to disarm every trap in the game, but still manage to pull people through a trap-laden quest while maintaining excellent combat damage mitigation. The sad part is that even with their excellent build balancing and player skills, a multi-class probably would have been better yet.

[Kargon]

Easy on Sarlona. Maybe an event brewing???

Count Kargona in.

[MysticRhythms]

You just need to be able to find 12 on one server.

Easy on Thelanis too. See note above about an All-Ranger Elite Velah kill. I can''t wait to try this on the new raid. My guild has at least 5 rangers that can run it.

[barecm]

I can think of 8 just off the top of my head from the small circle of players I know: Sweetheart, Onlyfrom, Kyeena, myself (obviously ;)), Grinndal, Lykurgos, Sergod, Manatafk, etc..

Honestly, I pug ALOT on Sarlona and, if anything, I see very few "bad" Rangers...


I have five in my guild that I would know love this challenge: Cursed, Mesa, Buddd, Vallee and Kluege (me). I may be missing 1-2 as well. All above average to excellent IMHO. I know some of the guys in Blacklist and a few other guilds as well as the a lot of the names mentioned in this thread and the "Best of" thread under the Sarlona section.

I think the bigger challenge is to get us all online at the same time...

[Westerner]

Rainbow in the Dark, Running with the Devils, Chamber of Coalescense, and Let Sleeping Dust Lie: 1 sorc, 1 cleric, 1 barb. No wipes.

Crucible: 2 sorc or 1 sorc.

Any walk up gianthold mission: 2 sorc or 1 sorc.

Running with the Devil Elite - 1 sorc, 1 wiz, 2 clerics, 1 barb, 1 ranger. Wiped many times, ranger had maybe 10 kills. Took 150min.

Still don't need your ranger. :)
What's your point?

[Borror0]

This mentality is where most of the misconceptions come from.

I'll make it clear, I never close my LFMs to any class, I leave my LFMs open to anyone and deal with what we have.


I run on Thelanis as well, and most of the rangers I group with (and I only PUG anymore) are better than most of the barbarians and fighters. Most use a combination of ranged (multi-shot does more damage than a barbarian) and TWF, and sometimes sword & board. The reasons why they do better is because they have more choices, can heal, can DPS, can turtle up when needed, and the player running them has learned when each is best.

I pugged a lot for a long while, and from my experience, yes I'm impressed more by rangers than barbarian, fighters and paladins. They are a very solid class and can do a lot, but so can fighters (properly built) and good paladins. Most rangers players are passionate by rangers, a lots of them got two or three and are really good at it, playing the most out of their character.

That sai,d I run into more "burden" rangers (in proportions) than other classes. Ranger is a pretty a hit or miss class, where when you miss.. you miss, a lot. When you miss on a ranger, you die a lot. When you miss on a barbarian, you deal less damage. That is the difference, it's not whether or not how good a player can be.. but how bad can it be. And when a ranger is bad, it's obvious. On a barbarian, you usually conclude that he is "average", being a ranger is less forgiving per say.


Those other melee classes are usually one-trick ponies with players that haven't learned to adapt.

Not really, barbarian are, some fighters are, but mostly, fighters and paladins are not unidimentional.


Still, some hit a very delicate balance and may not be able to disarm every trap in the game, but still manage to pull people through a trap-laden quest while maintaining excellent combat damage mitigation.

Exactly, playing a good rogue is not easy. Both build and skill-wise.

[barecm]

Oh yeah, and finding guys who have not completed it yet so that they can actually make an attempt ... since the timer is broken.... as usual.

[Borror0]

Oh yeah, and finding guys who have not completed it yet so that they can actually make an attempt ... since the timer is broken.... as usual.

Well, a GM can fix it for ya, just gotta wait for him.

[nbhs275]

i actually joined a group that was doing DQ 1 for flagging < An easy so quest, especially for a good ranger> and was told to try and not die. Which i promptly replyed to with " try and keep up" <when i got in the quest that is>. So after killing nearly 90% of all the mobs, i killed lialat in both rooms without help, grabbed my end chest and told them where their pre concieved notions would get them.

[Ringos]

Easy on Thelanis too. See note above about an All-Ranger Elite Velah kill. I can''t wait to try this on the new raid. My guild has at least 5 rangers that can run it.

Count JohnDenver in! (Just need to get a few of the new quests knocked out)

[Mindspat]

Its my group, I'll leave out clerics form the LFM if i feel like it, no matter how many posts go up about "wah let me play my ranger with you!"

...and we will continue to make fun of you...FOR EVAR!!! :P

Yes people, some just still don't get it. Dont' worry - nothing personal - they are always worth a good laugh. :D

*for the record, I only play a sorcerer and have not leveled anything esle above lvl 4.

[Sutek]

pfffft!
Rogues and Rangers rule Fighters and Paladins drule!

That's right I'm pullin out the grade 3 sayings :D

[Sutek]

pfffft!
Rogues and Rangers rule Fighters and Paladins drule!

That's right I'm pullin out the grade 3 sayings :D

That being said when I'm playing my Rogue the LFM doesn't have Rogue on it. Last thing i need is a noob rogue blowing up traps in my face and not fighting.

[aurus33]

Maybe you should reserve comment until you have a high level Ranger or Rogue? Maybe then I wouldn't have to do this: :rolleyes:

Priceless

[Cruzer]

...and we will continue to make fun of you...FOR EVAR!!! :P

Yes people, some just still don't get it. Dont' worry - nothing personal - they are always worth a good laugh. :D

*for the record, I only play a sorcerer and have not leveled anything esle above lvl 4.

You act like I hate rangers, and thats fine. I just don't like rangers I don't know as I've had a lot of bad experience with them. You asked about unconventional group make ups and I answered. Sorry if you meant this to be a post about the "godliness" of the ranger class, and not what your original post said. I play a ranger and I like it, and he's a good melee build with a lot of survivability. I just don't trust every other person to play well.

I don't get the mentality that 12 rangers in a group completing a raid is something "special". I'm not surprised when it happens. A group of 12 fighters with no splashed levels and relying on pots to haste, heal, and resist themselves - that would be something interesting to see. A group of 12 people, whos base class gives good skill points and the ability to heal/raise/resist and combines VERY well with other classes SHOULD be able to do the shroud, Velah elite, etc.

[Cruzer]

What's your point?

Did you even read the original post? It concluded with this:

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?



Thats what I was answering.

[boldarblood]

I'll take a Ranger over a Paladin and a Fighter almost every time.

[Mindspat]

You act like I hate rangers, and thats fine. I just don't like rangers I don't know \

You are reading too much into this.

I don't play anything other then a Sorcerer and find it funny how some people insist upon certain party make ups. The examples given in this thread show that others also experiance this and have gone out to prove those omitting certain characters are missing out.

Have fun with it. :)

Someone was saying last night "I need 7 fighters and only have 6 - cannot take you" - This was for the Shroud. We were running it with 2-3 melee types of which only 2-3 characters that could even be remotely considered melee (2 rangers and a rogue) and completed it no more then 20 minutes. :eek:

It's just silly to ommitt a character type 'cs "I need more melee"...

:)

[Aesop]

6 Rogue's Crucible Elite 2 death's ... cause I'm an idiot somedays. End guy dropped like a bad habit. I was the least Rogue of the group being 6Rogue/4Fighter/3Paly

only 1 other MC and that one was a ranger/rogue hybrid


I also have pretty crappy gear because the loot gods think its funnier that way. Though they finally gifted me a Paralyzer after 18 months of play


Aesop


I hate LFMs that specifically exclude Rogues... its like people only want them for one aspect and don't think they can perform any other tasks... even though that is what they do... EVERYTHING

[Vengenance]

Titan run on elite-6 man run
Raid consisted of 2 Rangers, 1 Bard (Dwarf Melee Specced Bard), 1 Pally, and 2 fighters (no clerics or offesive casting). The raid to less than 10 minutes and we had no deaths.

I've also ran in all rogue groups, all caster groups, many upon many groups with no cleric, and groups with all bards. I find weird group make-ups are usually the ones that are the most fun.

[suitepotato]

Just throwing in my two cents but DPS is NOT the entire point of playing. Remember back when ck and firewall scrolls were sold and fighters would fight in the midst of them using the help of the casters? Especially with ck doing con dmg, taking hp down as we were busy at doing dmg. That's called using teamwork. Some enable others to have an easier time of it.

In some instances, ranging serves the purpose because aggro patterns are such that there's limited path monsters will take. If you have an idea where that is, you can have a caster then ambush while a tank drops down into the fray. And this isn't an exploit, counting on the terrain and known tendencies of an enemy are used in military planning and always have been. Even ancient man drove animals off cliffs based on this reasoning.

Other times, stat dmg whether con, ac, or whatever does the trick.

Still others, it's to use paralysis, slow, and whatever else cuts their responses down. If there were a finesseable weapon that caused int or wis dmg on a hit, I'd use it.

Rogues can do many of the same things rangers can as can bards. All three classes range between an armed dune buggy and a Bradley Fighting Vehicle next to the tanks and should be considered associate tanks. With harassment and enabling stat dmg from them, any given tank is given a much greater edge like having more than one tank.

I say all this because frequently the most miserably ridiculously unfunny runs are WITH groups of casters, clerics, and main tanks with none of the three, rogue, bard, or ranger. I've had some very good ranger and rogue heavy runs which were dual wield and ranging extravaganzas. All it goes to show is that if you are going to be formulaic and not consider alternate strategies, you're certainly not guaranteeing anything like success never mind fun.

[Djeserit]

I just ran a PUG quest on normal and hard. On normal the fighter led kills. On hard my rogue did. It's the same quest, same group, same build, same equipment, and same me playing; just a matter of how much challenge the group wants.

Many players choose to do PUG quests at a level where they have no doubt they can finish. If the fighters can kill everything with two punches, they get all the kills. The rogue is just opening traps, and that's fine; that's more fun for a lot of people.

If players choose to go a little harder, the rogue has a chance to sneak attack and become a DPS machine.

Many PUG groups start easy and then ramp it up once they see that the group is functional. So I get more kills usually on the second quest with any group.

If the tanks actually try to draw agro, the DPS gets even more slanted in the rogue's favor, but you can't count on this in a PUG.

I am not much of a player, but my rogue can easily lead the kills, sometimes getting more than all other players combined. This has nothing to do with my 'skill'. It's mostly a matter of how hard the group wants to quest.

[Hvymetal]

Bah, it's just fear people have of us Rogues (and maybe a little help from the Rangers) of ruling the world :D

12 Bard Tempest Spine run had to be one of the oddest groups I was in and it was a blast. Full Rogue groups are also very fun, cause someone is getting backstabbed, all the time.

[JFeenstra]

the 600ish HP barbarian
whats wrong with my 635hp unbuffed barb, huh?

just because he's sitting at 40 unbuffed ac and can stand toe to toe with almost any fighter damage wise doesn't make him a nightmare :)

[moonprophet]

So, the point is, one of the reasons this game is so great is that you have the flexibility to think outside of the box (as my buddy mindspat would say) and build a character that can be original AND effective. Nothing makes me cringe more than when I enter a group and am told "Ok. This is the way we do this. This is the way we have always done this. This is the best way, and this is not open for discussion". If it weren't for the devs changing or "nerfing" things periodicly, we would still all be standing around waiting for the cloudkill to finish doing its thing. If that was the play experience I wanted, I'd head over to WoW. It shouldn't take a major change by the developers and programmers to make us consider alternate strategies. If you are starting to feel that this game is nothing but grind, check your playstyle and attitude.
For example, you can run Rainbow in the Dark for loot fairly easily by playing with your gamma controlls and "cheating" your way through the level. I can tell you from experience however that the most fun I have ever had in this game was stepping into that quest for the first time with a pug group that had never been in and playing it the way it was intended to be played. It gave me the same thrill I had when I played PnP for the first time. A close runner up was running tangleroot on elite with a bunch of level 4's. We nearly wiped more times than I can count, but made it through thanks to resoursefullness and teamwork and had a blast doing it.
So, all of that being said, let's stop discriminating based on class and race eh? My next build? Ranger/Paladin. Comig to an LFM near you!

[Borror0]

just because he's sitting at 40 unbuffed ac and can stand toe to toe with almost any fighter damage wise doesn't make him a nightmare :)

Because you're missing out on Glancing Blows, meaning monsters die slower, meaning you're taking more damage, being more costy on the cleric. A barbarian withou a single Toughness feat will sit beyond 400 HP at level 14. This is more than needed.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

before i got rid of my high level rogue when i switched to PD, he did pretty good, didnt lead in kills, but still got pretty high up there, had an assortment of weapons to deal out extra damage ontop of sneak attack damage, had to be careful and always maxed subtle backstabber. but i really couldnt swing as much as the other melees or else i'd be focused on.

[MrCow]

If there were a finesseable weapon that caused int or wis dmg on a hit, I'd use it.

I would have a field day if such weapons existed. It would make my life so much easier if there were reliable mental stat damagers on weapons trying to figure out monster stats.

[Westerner]

Did you even read the original post? It concluded with this:

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?


Thats what I was answering.

Your answer concluded with this:

Running with the Devil Elite - 1 sorc, 1 wiz, 2 clerics, 1 barb, 1 ranger. Wiped many times, ranger had maybe 10 kills. Took 150min.

Still don't need your ranger. :)

Seens like the point of your post was to communicate your anti-ranger bias rather than answering the OP's question.

[boldarblood]

whats wrong with my 635hp unbuffed barb, huh?

just because he's sitting at 40 unbuffed ac and can stand toe to toe with almost any fighter damage wise doesn't make him a nightmare :)

At that point your more of a marshmellow than a barbarian ;)

The problem with building a barb that way is you lose out on alot of what makes a Barb so effective. Your 40AC is really no different than a 20AC Barbarian. But that 20AC barbarian has alot more damage output.

A barbarian never needs the toughness feats, you will be over 500 hitpoints raged up, which is plenty. Max out the 2Hand Fighting feats and the build increases in effectiveness by alot.

[Borror0]

If you guys find people too strict... I've seen an LFM:

Fighter;
Cleric;
Wizard;
Sorcerer.

All he wanted, the group was empty but him (fighter). Could be worse I guess, liek that Barbarian, Cleric and Sorcerer group I saw the other day...


At that point your more of a marshmellow than a barbarian ;)

The problem with building a barb that way is you lose out on alot of what makes a Barb so effective. Your 40AC is really no different than a 20AC Barbarian. [...] A barbarian never needs the toughness feats, you will be over 500 hitpoints raged up, which is plenty.

What he said.

[Mapa]

Strangest group I have ever been in was PoP elite, 5 Clerics and 1 Wiz (me, my cleric was 8th level at the time).
Not a single Battle Cleric or Death Priest in the lot. We were bored and everyone wanted to see if it could be done.
And, yes, I pulled half the switches. Not the fastest run, but we had a ball.

As far as Rangers and DPS, the only person that has ever beat me in kill count on a scale run was another ranger. Know your strenghts and weaknesses, play accordingly.

Count me in on a all Ranger Shroud run on New Xo.. Thelanis :D

[Lebrac]

:) for people who don't know how to play or build a good toon then u can say rangers and rouges suck. Go play your casters so all u have to do is click finger and PK. since that is so powerfull in the game.

personaly i will stick with my Ranger that sits at a 54 AC with 2 weapons and preaty much outkills most fighter/barbarian/stat damage people. and yes this is a Str based build not a dex based. also just might be one of the top PVP builds for melle vs melle. i dont know... Seems to me rangers can/should be Very well rounded at both melle if it be stat damage based or STR based DPS. have a very good AC if not higher then most fighters that have a shield on, and Ranged damage along with beign able to drop back and range **** if it's something that is needed.

i'm not going to ramble about this silly topic anymore... just have to say... 90% it's the player not the class.. onlything a poor player can be "OK" at is Fingering and PKing thigns... that's all there is to it.

[bandyman1]

No DPS huh?

Tell that to the clerics in group tonight in the new raid, where my rogue with a +3 holy burst rapier of pure good + 8d6 backstab damage was drawing aggro off of 2 maxed out dwarven barbs and a fighter in 2-3 hits.

PS; On a side note, sadly 38 Diplo is not enough to influnce the boss on normal :(.

[Konek]

No DPS huh?

Tell that to the clerics in group tonight in the new raid, where my rogue with a +3 holy burst rapier of pure good + 8d6 backstab damage was drawing aggro off of 2 maxed out dwarven barbs and a fighter in 2-3 hits.

PS; On a side note, sadly 38 Diplo is not enough to influnce the boss on normal :(.

Burst damage and sustained DPS are two different quantities. Burst damage for a rogue is easy. Anyone who thinks any pure rogue isn't capable of very good burst damage is just an idiot (or else the player actively gimped their attack bonus, I'm sure someone out there would make a 8 str, 8 dex rogue just to prove that statement wrong). The sneak attack bonus sees to that. Rogues doing sustained DPS is much more rare, because as you said, once you do that burst damage, you have aggro, and now you're damage is very low with probably a 20 STR if that to a Barbs 40-50.

[Ghoste]

People who group with me and are familiar with my play style know rangers and rogues tend to survive with me a lot longer than barbarians. Bards work well with me too for that matter. Some of the good friends I have on my server are people I first PuG'd with while running a quest in an "unconventional" style.

Had an opportunity today to show some people how useful a ranger could be. Everyone in the party was shocked to learn that a ranger could effectively replace the nuker in taking down the STK giant. Our sorc was being played by a kid who was having "difficulties". Mind you it does take significantly longer.

[bandyman1]

Burst damage and sustained DPS are two different quantities. Burst damage for a rogue is easy. Anyone who thinks any pure rogue isn't capable of very good burst damage is just an idiot (or else the player actively gimped their attack bonus, I'm sure someone out there would make a 8 str, 8 dex rogue just to prove that statement wrong). The sneak attack bonus sees to that. Rogues doing sustained DPS is much more rare, because as you said, once you do that burst damage, you have aggro, and now you're damage is very low with probably a 20 STR if that to a Barbs 40-50.

Oh I totally agree; you're spot on.

Unfortunately, some people still just don't get this. And a lot of rogues don't either.

But I DO think you missed my PS about the 38 Diplo on my rogue. I spam it while attacking. So, except in specific cases like the boss I mentioned in my PS , it's pretty much sustainable DPS as opposed to burst damage. And as I have spring attack, I don't even lose to hit while following them to their new best friend, sneak attacking all the way :D.

[Aesop]

Don't forget about Improved Feint for picking up another Sneak Attack though it should be a faster animation I think.

Aesop

[Benjai]

Whoops, the first ever hard finish of the shroud just so happened to have had no fighters or barbarians. Oh, and 6 rangers.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i13/TheLuckyKnights/shroud-hard.jpg

[nbhs275]

Whoops, the first ever hard finish of the shroud just so happened to have had no fighters or barbarians. Oh, and 6 rangers.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i13/TheLuckyKnights/shroud-hard.jpg

thats because on the pit fiend 6 rangers + bard songs + 4 arrow manyshot + greater evil outsider bane<and most likely favored enemy> thats enough damage to take 1/8th of his health away in 20 seconds. I know my ranger does about 30-40 damage a shot to evil outsiders, without bard songs. So if the average shots alone are 35 damage, x 24 arrows every 2 seconds= 420 a second, 4200 in 20, thats not even counting crits for around 130-150.

[Mindspat]

All those naysayers just got PWND!!1!shift+1 :eek:


Whoops, the first ever hard finish of the shroud just so happened to have had no fighters or barbarians. Oh, and 6 rangers.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i13/TheLuckyKnights/shroud-hard.jpg

[Cruzer]

Those poor clerics and sorcs, having to do a mission with not 1, not 2, but SIX rangers.

As if that group wasn't bad enough with a BARD in it.

[Benjai]

The point isn't just that 6 rangers did well in phase 5 but remember we also had to get past phase 2 and 4 where its more than just range everything until it dies, but having to get up close and personal to painful things.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The only bad rangers I have ever seen were in the Harbor.......the ones who keep using abow when the baddie is in their face whacking on them. (not to be confused with using a bow against a spell caster or archer who is in your face, or against a baddie who is one hit away from death)

Most higher lvl Rangers will go TWF most of the time and get huge kill counts......they also have enough sense to know when ranging the enemy is the preferred tactic......something other melee types should learn as well.

Rogues: I do not expect to be high DPS, but they can be.....and if the tanks will intimidate often, the rogues will lead the kill count, I can almost guarantee it. (probably doesn't apply against targets immune to their sneak attack)

Equipment goes a very long way in this game........in the Vale a rogue with a good banisher could easily get the most kills.

The number one thing I hate about DDO right now is the people! The people who want to exclude others from having fun, so they can build their ideal party mix.

Especially those who think they will somehow finish the new raid with thier ideal 4Tank/4Arcane/4clr party.
To my knowledge, none of them have finished it yet.

I also hate the trend of a Ftr or Brb putting up LFMs for only Wiz/Sor/Clr....to carry his butt through the quest.

My first attempt at the new raid started off great (dispite all the groans about not having the right mix.....especially when I joined.
Finished part one vey quickly according to one person at least.
But then part two went real bad......but from what I saw it had nothing to do with a bad mixed party, and everything to do with no one agreeing on what to do......and eventually giving up all together.

When will people get it, that working together will take you farther than anything else.

Rangers and rogues are among the most versitile and self sufficent of the classes........any party can benfit from a good one.
And a bad one usually hurts less than a bad something else in the group IMO.

[Westerner]

Those poor clerics and sorcs, having to do a mission with not 1, not 2, but SIX rangers.

As if that group wasn't bad enough with a BARD in it.
Yeah, those classes with 2 good saves out of 3 are ... abnormal. :p

[Delt]

I also hate the trend of a Ftr or Brb putting up LFMs for only Wiz/Sor/Clr....to carry his butt through the quest.


Pet peeve of mine too - even if I am looking to do whatever they want on my sorc, I simply won't join. I don't think I'm the only one that avoids those groups.

[Cruzer]

Rogues: I do not expect to be high DPS, but they can be.....and if the tanks will intimidate often, the rogues will lead the kill count, I can almost guarantee it. (probably doesn't apply against targets immune to their sneak attack)

Equipment goes a very long way in this game........in the Vale a rogue with a good banisher could easily get the most kills.


Agreed - However, a Barbarian with 2 good banishing rapiers that banish 13-20 would be even more likely to banish a mob than a rogue.



The number one thing I hate about DDO right now is the people! The people who want to exclude others from having fun, so they can build their ideal party mix.

Especially those who think they will somehow finish the new raid with thier ideal 4Tank/4Arcane/4clr party.
To my knowledge, none of them have finished it yet.


Maybe its just my bad luck, but every PuG I see on Sarlona either ignores a class that i'm playing at the time, or sits aroud waiting for the fully filled nicely even group. People waiting 10-15min to start WW or STK at level 3-5 because they can't find a cleric, but have rangers, palis, and bards in already. stuff like that.

[neoanderthal]

I hate PUGging on Sarlona. I usually just wait until someone I know logs on, or run stuff by myself. This method stinks when you want to run something somewhat difficult, but it's better than the alternative, sometimes. I recently finished some lowb quest in 3-barrel with two rangers and a fighter (me) with no difficulty, which I'd seen totally wipe a party of 6 (my g/f was playing in that group) two or three times, because the guy running it was more interested in running his mouth, telling people they needed to do this or that with their build, or that TWF was useless below level 6, **** like that, than in keeping his group together and making sure everyone got across the stone bridges without falling.

anyhow.
It's hard to find a decent group to PUG with, aside from the "rangers/rogues not welcome". Hell, my g/f and I were running Durk's on elite, and invited one of her guildmates along (a wf rogue who had no skills in lock.disable.search). He zerged the hell out of the instance, which was ok, as that was what we were doing, trying to level our lowb cleric and ranger, but he'd bite off more than he could chew and by the time we figured out where he was, or finished with our own fight, he'd either be dead or limping back with a train. Seems like it's getting too damned hard to find good players who just want to run an instance, no muss no fuss.

And I think people who think that a character's role in the party is DPS first and last are playing the wrong game for the wrong reasons.

[Talcyndl]

Funny story...

I ran the Shroud today. I originally had my fighter in the group. But before we started we talked about part 3 and whether to bring a rogue. I volunteered to bring mine. The group leader eventually agreed after saying something to the effect that the rest of the group had "enough dps" without my fighter. I almost laughed and said my rogue wasn't lacking in dps.

My little old 28 point halfling rogue ended up leading the kill count by a wide margin - in a group that got to the very end and wiped on the end guy only because of inexperience (need to get all casters full before killing the last sidekick).

Oh, and I was raised the clerics multiple times (and they raised me a lot too :D ).

Granted, a lot of the fighter's attention was focused on the portals in part one, but my rogue was doing ok damage even to them.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So,
My second attempt at the Shroud......second time not making it past part 2....
But this time at least the group made a decent showing in Prt2.

What do I find out?
A NAMED FIRE ELEMENTAL! is one of the baddies that can spawn in part 2! And you guys dont want Rgrs/Rogs in your groups!?

Why would you not want an evasion toon when you know you need to take on a fire elemental?

Fire elementals beat up everyone except those guys with evasion.......we evasion classes fear no fire ellie....ever!

Part1: Beat up some unmoving constructs.......right now (not sure after todays update) there is no time limit.
A halfling Wiz with a greater construct bane weapon would be better than half of your traditional tanks without one.....why do you think Rgrs and Rogs are useless here?
Orthans(sp)?
That same halfling Wiz, can use a vorpal bastard sword and still roll the same 20 your Uber tank can.......why do you think you need a specific class to take them out?

I heard stories of a bunch of Rangers taking down the Pit Fiend at the end.

Didn't you guys learn anything from the demonqueen?

A bunch of evasion ranged based toons could stand for hours in a hail of meteor swarms and beat on this guy out of range of his aura of flame and massive claws/cleaves etc.

Why would you not want this in your group?

To me it shows ignorance and stupidity.....let alone selfishness and bad manners to exclude others from your fun list.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yeah, those classes with 2 good saves out of 3 are ... abnormal. :p

:)
And my Multi-classed build has three good saves out of three. :)

[Westerner]

And my Multi-classed build has three good saves out of three. :)

Dude, not grouping with your gimp build... ;)

There's three kinds of toons in DDO:
1) "Normal" toons. Barbs (DPS), Sorcs (Nuking), Clerics (Healing).
2) Gimps.

/sarcasm off

Classists are so set in their self-defined "normal" that they don't realize the ahem, obvious ...

[Westerner]

Didn't you guys learn anything from the demonqueen?

A bunch of evasion ranged based toons could stand for hours in a hail of meteor swarms and beat on this guy out of range of his aura of flame and massive claws/cleaves etc.

Why would you not want this in your group?

To me it shows ignorance and stupidity.....let alone selfishness and bad manners to exclude others from your fun list.
Well put. But I think some folks are going to have to learn the hard way that when you're having trouble screwing two pieces of wood together, a larger hammer isn't the answer. :)

[Raiderone]

It's called lack of vision or the lack of ability to do something different. if casters are so powerful, what do they worry about having a rogue or a ranger. it actually ****es me off sometimes. just a few days ago, i clicked to join anyway
on several shroud lfm's during the past week... one day sorcerer leader takes me (during day maybe felt had no option).
next day sorcerer bogus leader gives me some lame excuse that it wasn't a toon thing but a guildie thing...right.
i'm not for one to send tells, ask what the @#$$. but sometimes, it's warrented.

another day..ie sorcerer leader doesn't except me...notice the pattern...GOD FIGURES...i go get my lvl16 tank
and get invited... but when i brought rangers up in conversation...i got to hear how some of them hated rangers...it took alot
for me not to get really angered... but mark my words...vengence will be mine... no soup for you sorcerer...
i'm a elitist player, play 40 or more hours a week...have played all toons... cannot wait until i get to group
with sorcerer#3...no heals for you... i won't squelch you...squelching you would be too nice...

i two weapon fight and against names go board and sword... i'll range when needed.
lvl 16 ranger...lvl 15 rogue/ranger too...so i get the BS from two sides...

i understand some rangers are bad...but other classes arent excluded. bad caster or cleric could be worse
for the group...if they are GODS like some Sorcerers think they ARE....

ran the ritual sacrifice quest..with my rogue, bard, cleric, ranger/rogue and one sorcerer(a humble one)...
we lost the pally..stayed outside...probably out of fear. strip him of his saint hood in my opinion...
we were just fine.. actually started quest with only 4 at first...sorc was afk.
normal of course... ran chamber with similar group but added mage...we were fine. imagine that...

[Raiderone]

Well put. But I think some folks are going to have to learn the hard way that when you're having trouble screwing two pieces of wood together, a larger hammer isn't the answer. :)

Exactly...sometimes i find myself checking groups lfm's just to see why they don't want a ranger or rogue.
to find out, they have none in the group or have some of each.

sometimes even rangers and rogues eliminate each other , by thinking that they cannot have two in a group...

[brshelton]

So,
My second attempt at the Shroud......second time not making it past part 2....
But this time at least the group made a decent showing in Prt2.

What do I find out?
A NAMED FIRE ELEMENTAL! is one of the baddies that can spawn in part 2! And you guys dont want Rgrs/Rogs in your groups!?

Why would you not want an evasion toon when you know you need to take on a fire elemental?

Fire elementals beat up everyone except those guys with evasion.......we evasion classes fear no fire ellie....ever!

Part1: Beat up some unmoving constructs.......right now (not sure after todays update) there is no time limit.
A halfling Wiz with a greater construct bane weapon would be better than half of your traditional tanks without one.....why do you think Rgrs and Rogs are useless here?
Orthans(sp)?
That same halfling Wiz, can use a vorpal bastard sword and still roll the same 20 your Uber tank can.......why do you think you need a specific class to take them out?

I heard stories of a bunch of Rangers taking down the Pit Fiend at the end.

Didn't you guys learn anything from the demonqueen?

A bunch of evasion ranged based toons could stand for hours in a hail of meteor swarms and beat on this guy out of range of his aura of flame and massive claws/cleaves etc.

Why would you not want this in your group?

To me it shows ignorance and stupidity.....let alone selfishness and bad manners to exclude others from your fun list.

That "story" of all rangers was 6 rangers were the only non casters in the FIRST global Hard completion.

[maddmatt70]

Problem with Rangers:

Rangers, when TWF and built properly, are a very solid class that can contribute very well and truely act as a "melee". Of course, they are shorter on HP (unless dwarf), but they can deal more damage than needed. Even more since Ram's Might. However, many rangers go for bow and this is the real killer. Bow damage, in this game, still is a real joke. Comparing ranged to melee damage is like comparing S&B to THF. So, the difference gets really big. So, when you PuG a ranger, you might either fall on:


That noob with his bow;
That crazy ranger that does amazing things with his bow;
That noob TWF ranger that does countlessly and is a burden to the party;
That well built ranger that leads the kill count;


The problem is that 1 and 3 are the most commons, by a fairly wide margin and that they, both possibility 1 and 3, are a pain to group with as not only their skilsl are lacking, but their playstyle itself is a problem. Yes, you could always PuG that S&B paladin with all Cha, 22ish Str and 30 AC, but he'll be less of a (mana) drain than the rangers as he's got more HP, got LoH, etc.

All classes got their "nightmares", the 600ish HP barbarian, the CK/SF/Acid Fog/FW wizard, the PK/FoD sorc that empties his SPs within the first 5 minutes and then spend the next 15 minutes waiting for a shrine, the bard that doesn't buff (himself included), the Null Cleric that will never heal (no matter if it'll cause a party wipe or not) and waste all his mana in a splitsecond, etc. but, for most classes, chances to have a bad player are lower and/or the benefits far outweight the risks.

Problem with Rogues:

Rogues' problem is somewhat different to the rangers', but there are some difference. The number of rogues that are actually nothing but trapsmith are, sadly, even more common than bad rangers. Sometimes, the problem doesn't lie in the build, rogues are killing machine by their nature, but rather in the player's attitude. Most player think that they are too squishy to fight, that they'll die. Then, you add those who do go and fight... to die. Not any better.

Very few are the rogues that can actually impress a party by leading the kill count, because it is not that easy. It takes skills. Aggro management is pretty much the first thing a rogue must learn if he wants to be helpful at all. It takes tactics, strategy... and well, neither are something I would expect from a PuGGie.

So, what do we get? Rogues that can do the Cabal trap, but finishes with 3-4 kills. So yeah, I can see why they aren't DPS to some people's eye.

I am going to agree with you about bows dps especially against red named with one exception and that is a bow ranger or archer who hordes arrows like mad. A friend of mine has 3 rangers, one of which is a bow ranger, and he has like 5 mules filled with arrows. We constantly send arrows to him to help him. He has the dedication and the work ethic to take what we give him and what he gets himself and to have his character ready when he needs to shoot whatever mob is at hand whether with greater bane, greater slaying, holy, etc... He can outkill anybody in any given dungeon - that is if he has enough arrows..

Rogues' problem are that they are poorly built in ddo - way too many squishy rogues. Really all rogues should be dwarves forget about any other races for rogue...

[Aesop]

I am going to agree with you about bows dps especially against red named with one exception and that is a bow ranger or archer who hordes arrows like mad. A friend of mine has 3 rangers, one of which is a bow ranger, and he has like 5 mules filled with arrows. We constantly send arrows to him to help him. He has the dedication and the work ethic to take what we give him and what he gets himself and to have his character ready when he needs to shoot whatever mob is at hand whether with greater bane, greater slaying, holy, etc... He can outkill anybody in any given dungeon - that is if he has enough arrows..

Rogues' problem are that they are poorly built in ddo - way too many squishy rogues. Really all rogues should be dwarves forget about any other races for rogue...

Bow DPS does need a massive case of the "help I shoot too slow" or of the "oh my god that's a lot of arrows"

Rogue... I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with that last part there... Don't get me wrong Dwarves are the Uber Race but I don't usually have much of a problem staying alive with my measly 280 hp... could I have more... yep I could... I could have a +3 Con Tome and a Greater False Life item that would be +62 HP at my level with my Con... so somewhere around 340 hp... not as many as a pure Fighter or Barb ... but hey, I have evasion and decent saves. When the rest of the group dies from the small hoarde of Ancient Fire Elementals it was myself and the ranger who killed them all and then rezed the cleric. Did I take damage ... yeah but I could heal myself and then munch my way through a number, and then distracting them while the ranger healed him/herself til they all were dead. We aren't all squishie and even the squishie ones if played right (and if you are level 16 I should hope you learned how to do it) will usually outlive the tanks. Accidents happen but even a Barb fails a Finger of Death save every now and then.

Aesop

[VampericX]

I gotta comment on the fact that i have turned my ranger into my main...and he is not twf/tempest im pure bow only time i go 2 swords is if i feel like it w/breaking boxes. On top of that im almost always leading the kill count and my stats arent ur norm 4 bow rangers...oh and i almost never die :)

[maddmatt70]

Bow DPS does need a massive case of the "help I shoot too slow" or of the "oh my god that's a lot of arrows"

Rogue... I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with that last part there... Don't get me wrong Dwarves are the Uber Race but I don't usually have much of a problem staying alive with my measly 280 hp... could I have more... yep I could... I could have a +3 Con Tome and a Greater False Life item that would be +62 HP at my level with my Con... so somewhere around 340 hp... not as many as a pure Fighter or Barb ... but hey, I have evasion and decent saves. When the rest of the group dies from the small hoarde of Ancient Fire Elementals it was myself and the ranger who killed them all and then rezed the cleric. Did I take damage ... yeah but I could heal myself and then munch my way through a number, and then distracting them while the ranger healed him/herself til they all were dead. We aren't all squishie and even the squishie ones if played right (and if you are level 16 I should hope you learned how to do it) will usually outlive the tanks. Accidents happen but even a Barb fails a Finger of Death save every now and then.

Aesop

Lets face it rogue skills are not really that important to the game of ddo - they just aren't so why bother emphasizing that in a character. So the question is what can a rogue build/character do effectively that is important to ddo? They could potentially make an effective tank which is important in ddo in alot of dungeons, but they are hp and defensively challenged. How do you overcome that challenge well dwarf is definitely an answer. The whole holding back for somebody else to do something = gimped tank because your not eliminating the target or doing anything to keep the target from the casters, but praying and hoping for the real tanks to initiate the action...

Your example is a weak one because why not splash 2 levels of rogue for the evasion with barbarian or a fighter or a pally they all would have survived your fire elemental challenge and they would make a better tank for the rest of the dungeon..

[Nataichal]

I would divide rogues and rangers in this argument. Rangers can be very viable killers (though in DPS that is up in the air. For example, my ranger kills through the use of WoPs, Smiters, Banishers, etc) as well as crucial for certain quests. Remember when rangers could solo the queen? Hell, a good one may be able to pull it off now, since you can cure hamstring. But regardless of what you intend to do with your ranger, they are always some form of combat class.

Rogues are not. There are still a sizable number of rogues who were made with the explicit purpose of being trap monkeys, not meleers, and while that can be somewhat changed, you can't alter stats. And while yes, some rogues are tanks (my backstab tank is 100% a frontliner) my pure rogue most definitely is not.

So why are LFM's omitting classes, specifically, ranger and rogue? Two reasons. 1)While some builds may meet needs outside of their class norm, the person creating the LFM has no idea if the individual joining has such a build or, frankly, if they'd lie or are too ignorant to know what they'd be facing in a quest. I've been in pugs where someone has confidently claimed they could handle something, only for it to become woefully obvious that they can do no such thing, to the detriment of the entire party. 2)Rangers and Rogues are by far the widest SPECTRUM of quality of characters within a class. Most classes, the range between, say, a bad tank and a good tank are noticable, but certain factors stay within a manageable range. High HP, decent AC, etc. Variability comes down to player skill and equipment. But with rangers and rogues, its a LOT easier to screw up the build, with some being absolute godsends, and others worth less than a crosseyed brain damaged level 3 barbarian. In addition, a talented ranger is more difficult to play than a strong tank, and a melee rogue even moreso. They're just, well, more fragile. So while player ability may have some effect with a tank on the quality of the character, that same effect is amplified in these 2 classes.

[Heladron]

IMHO, If someone is excluding various classes in their LFMs, then that person is demonstrating symptoms of severe one-dimensional thinking. When I put up an LFM, I initially include everybody in it except for the class I'm currently playing. If I'm feeling particularly adventurous then I'll just keep taking first come joins. Sometimes people will volunteer to bring a different character along, but I always leave the choice up to the person who wants to change.

I just want to play the game and the faster I fill up a party the faster we can get on the way to getting our XP and Treasure.

Personally, I just don't group with the people who put up segregative LFMs because I know they are probably not going to be able to adapt to the parties make up anyway.

So to all of you 1D thinkers, Good Luck. While you're waiting for your idea of an ideal party to materialize, my group and I will be in the dungeon collecting our loot.

To the Rogues and Rangers who aren't getting love, just put up an LFM of your own and we'll go run some quests. Don't be shy, it doesn't hurt at all.

[Westerner]

So to all of you 1D thinkers, Good Luck. While you're waiting for your idea of an ideal party to materialize, my group and I will be in the dungeon collecting our loot.
Beautifully said. :)

[Aesop]

Lets face it rogue skills are not really that important to the game of ddo - they just aren't so why bother emphasizing that in a character. So the question is what can a rogue build/character do effectively that is important to ddo? They could potentially make an effective tank which is important in ddo in alot of dungeons, but they are hp and defensively challenged. How do you overcome that challenge well dwarf is definitely an answer. The whole holding back for somebody else to do something = gimped tank because your not eliminating the target or doing anything to keep the target from the casters, but praying and hoping for the real tanks to initiate the action...

Your example is a weak one because why not splash 2 levels of rogue for the evasion with barbarian or a fighter or a pally they all would have survived your fire elemental challenge and they would make a better tank for the rest of the dungeon..

Because with Sneak Attack I can do an extra 7d6 damage with a to hit and strength damage comparable to any fighters. A barb can get more straight strength damage but fall behind when sneak attack is in the picture. I know you love your dwarves but seriously lets try not to break this down to a Dwarves are overpowered thing again. We know they are, back when the enhancement system came out I argued til I was blue in the fingers that they were'nt balanced but nothing changes.

As far as defensively challenged...? how so? A halfling robe Rogue can get a higher AC than a Dwarf can. I'm also unclear about the holding back thing? I can hit Improved feint and then cleave and do plenty of damage if I want to... but honestly it is easier if we have someone else spamming Intimidate so we can do more damage more frequently.

Oh and if they would make a better tank for the rest of the dungeon ... why was it that I and the ranger lead the kills by a wide margin. Now admittedly I didn't make a front line tank I made a Rogue off tank for my character. SO I'm not specced to pick up aggro off the Caster that launches a major spell... I'm actually specced the other way so that the tank can pick up aggro off me. That way I do more damage and eliminate targets faster... if I wanted to take aggro away I'd want to throw points into intimidate... though if the caster stands still after 2-4 swings I'd have the aggro anyway.

But again they asked for DPS not an intimitank... I have one of those and they are neat but don't have half the damage capability of a decent rogue. Want to see a mob drop like a rock have two rogues pinball it to death... funny sight. dang thing isn't sure which way to turn.

Anyway Rogues are unloved because a perception that they can't dps... which is absolutley bogus.

they don't have the HP ... well is 300+ enough?

They don't have the AC... ok we can hit high 50s and spurts into the mid to upper 60s ... and maybe higher

so is there anything else? I know there are lots of low-mid level rogues that may... well stink... but seriously once we get up there you have the same chance that the cleric is gonna not heal ya as having a crappy rogue unable to do the full package of rogue things ... ie DPS Traps and EVERYTHING else under the sun. Same thing with rangers... and both can heal you and at least the rogue can likely raise the cleric if they get splorched

Aesop

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

Because with Sneak Attack I can do an extra 7d6 damage with a to hit and strength damage comparable to any fighters. A barb can get more straight strength damage but fall behind when sneak attack is in the picture. I know you love your dwarves but seriously lets try not to break this down to a Dwarves are overpowered thing again. We know they are, back when the enhancement system came out I argued til I was blue in the fingers that they were'nt balanced but nothing changes.

As far as defensively challenged...? how so? A halfling robe Rogue can get a higher AC than a Dwarf can. I'm also unclear about the holding back thing? I can hit Improved feint and then cleave and do plenty of damage if I want to... but honestly it is easier if we have someone else spamming Intimidate so we can do more damage more frequently.

Oh and if they would make a better tank for the rest of the dungeon ... why was it that I and the ranger lead the kills by a wide margin. Now admittedly I didn't make a front line tank I made a Rogue off tank for my character. SO I'm not specced to pick up aggro off the Caster that launches a major spell... I'm actually specced the other way so that the tank can pick up aggro off me. That way I do more damage and eliminate targets faster... if I wanted to take aggro away I'd want to throw points into intimidate... though if the caster stands still after 2-4 swings I'd have the aggro anyway.

But again they asked for DPS not an intimitank... I have one of those and they are neat but don't have half the damage capability of a decent rogue. Want to see a mob drop like a rock have two rogues pinball it to death... funny sight. dang thing isn't sure which way to turn.

Anyway Rogues are unloved because a perception that they can't dps... which is absolutley bogus.

they don't have the HP ... well is 300+ enough?

They don't have the AC... ok we can hit high 50s and spurts into the mid to upper 60s ... and maybe higher

so is there anything else? I know there are lots of low-mid level rogues that may... well stink... but seriously once we get up there you have the same chance that the cleric is gonna not heal ya as having a crappy rogue unable to do the full package of rogue things ... ie DPS Traps and EVERYTHING else under the sun. Same thing with rangers... and both can heal you and at least the rogue can likely raise the cleric if they get splorched

Aesop

Aesop

So what are u going to do in the shroud against the pit fiend? Stand back there and wand whip because then the party should grab a cleric or a bard, go in there and get killed because then the party should get a tank, or step back and range because then the party should get a ranger... The same can be said about the abbot... Intimitank is one version of getting aggro, another is just rush in there grab that aggro..

I never said rogues could not do dps, all that I said was that they are defensively challenged primarily do to hit points which limits their effectiveness unless people build to compensate for it..

[Aesop]

So what are u going to do in the shroud against the pit fiend? Stand back there and wand whip because then the party should grab a cleric or a bard, go in there and get killed because then the party should get a tank, or step back and range because then the party should get a ranger... The same can be said about the abbot... Intimitank is one version of getting aggro, another is just rush in there grab that aggro..

I never said rogues could not do dps, all that I said was that they are defensively challenged primarily do to hit points which limits their effectiveness unless people build to compensate for it..

um... probably hit him... I don't know because I haven't had the chance to try... I have had to solo take out 2 of the red named mobs in part 2 but that was on my first and second tries in the Shroud... Mostly my problem in there right now is just getting in there to try it out. Because people seem to think that only Cleric Barb Sorc groups are the way to go.

Is he susceptible to Sneak Attack?

I'm guessing AC won't matter too much... as that seems to be the norm for raids... Though I am to the point that I can hit 50+ AC and I am workning on 55+

My HP are close to 300 right now and If I could get a GFL item I'd be there... is that enough HP to feel relatively secure in surviving a shot or two? Or is just the Raged out Barbarians that have the HP to survive?

I do ok damage... I mean I don't have the best of weapons but tend to pull aggro off of Barbs if I'm not really careful... is that ok or do I need to be able to Nuke like a Sorceror?

So my question is what do you want me (or any rogue) to be able to do? I have Evasion so AoE effects are less effective against me. I have pretty decent HP (280+ unbuffed). I have an AC in the 50s when Buffed. My to hit is comparable to a Fighter or Paladin's. My damage is pretty respectable about 50 per hit without criticals with my crappy little ml 4 weapon... a pure rogue could probably do a bit more but I like my build over all and with barb buffs I could up that a bit as well. Yes I do less against Crit immunes but I try to have a weapon available to be useful in that situation too... cursespewer disruptor smiter paralyzer destructor... no vorpals yet no banishers either... greater construst bane for the portals. I mean I'm not trying to replace an AC or HP tank that isn't the purpose of the character. The character can excel pretty much anywhere.


So what is it that people want the rogue to do.... just run 6 - 8 quests ever to get them their special little toys while the rogue says "glad I can help see ya next time you want to run this quest I'll be here by the quest entrance if ya need me"?

SO again I ask what is the Minimum requirements for a rogue to be considered for some of these quests?

AC? 50? 55? 60? or higher?

HP? 275? 300? 350? 400?

DPS? 25? 50? 100? (remember DPS is Damage Per SECOND)

Does anyone have an answer to this or is it just a "we only want rogues to get rid of traps we find annoying and nothing else because that's a rogues job"


Aesop

[CSFurious]

but, there are so many worthless ones that they leave a bad taste in some player's mouths (as you level up, this problem tends to go away (hopefully))

also, i do not think that a red-name is vulnerable to sneak-attack damage

however, many who play this game have small minds & i would not worry much about grouping with them, you will have a better time for it

[aldan]

Saw an LFM for the shroud last night and of course the poster wouldnt accept any rangers. His post said "trying part 4". One of my guildies who has excellant DPS on her ranger got denied cause the poster said he needed DPS. What a laugh, rangers rock in part 4. Anywho, I sent a tell to him and told him to ask those rangers what their build is before discounting them as not useful. He mentioned "oh, I beat 4 all the time and I dont need rangers or rogues".

His original LFM said "trying part 4", but yet he beats it all the time.....HHHHHrRRRRRmmmmmm. Nope, doubt that.


I cant stand it either, I have a 15 rogue that has great fighting skills, and continually get told "there are no traps in there" when asking to join vail quests. What a joke. Guess, clerics only heal, casters only cast, fighters only fight, rogues only do traps, pallys only pally, rangers only use bows, and barbs only soak up mana.

Come on peeps, today is different than 2 years ago. Every Char is effective, and sometimes its the flawed groups that are the most fun.

[Lorien]

Lets face it rogue skills are not really that important to the game of ddo - they just aren't so why bother emphasizing that in a character. So the question is what can a rogue build/character do effectively that is important to ddo? They could potentially make an effective tank which is important in ddo in alot of dungeons, but they are hp and defensively challenged. How do you overcome that challenge well dwarf is definitely an answer. The whole holding back for somebody else to do something = gimped tank because your not eliminating the target or doing anything to keep the target from the casters, but praying and hoping for the real tanks to initiate the action...

Your example is a weak one because why not splash 2 levels of rogue for the evasion with barbarian or a fighter or a pally they all would have survived your fire elemental challenge and they would make a better tank for the rest of the dungeon..

I'm not gonna pick on ya guy, but this **** is startin to bug me. Usually stay reserved in my opinions and read these forums for a good laugh. "Rogue skills are really not that important to the game of ddo"...are you on crack? This is the rogues meat and potatoes. My rogue is a skill junkie. Has been from the gecko. Starting Str of 10 and starting Con of 8. I have just barely 200 hitpoints. If had more .. great .. but really don't need um honestly. Strength is nice to have.. but not at the expense of maxxed umd, jump, and everything that is rogue. My rogue is spec'd for 100% skills. I have two feats invested in archery (though this is primarily for soloing purposes). I have only two feats invested in melee .. Weapon finesse and Impr crit pierce (Once again to take advantage of my classes strengths). My AC is normally bout 43 (of course can be buffed by other classes and such but I don't believe in counting on that.). Not a great AC by most standards. What i'm gettin at is my rogue is a min-max rogue to take advantage of all my class abilities. So am I squishy? Maybe. Am i gimped? By most standards it sound like a resounding yes. Do I shy away from battle? Hells no!!! A rogue is a DPS powerhouse ... its part of the class!!!! Sciasca is a full blown assassin. She rarely dies and is almost always one of the last standing. Is she geared out? You better bet .. so is every good perfomin class if they wanna make the best of their character. I've found the rogue class to be a bit overpowered imho , but it definetly requires finesse to unlock it. I have to work, very hard, for her to perform, not gonna lie. This class is not for the lazy I assure you. I love when people call us kill stealers. Dude no one gets that lucky stealing kills ... what 75% of the time. Thats called openin a can of woopass .. not kill stealing. Sci is a kill count accountant. Kill count is a very unfair comparison and I would love to see a Damage tally for each toon at the end of the quests instead of / or in addition to kill counts. Sci can strip off a fully raged barb of his aggro quicker than a evnin gown on prom night if she doesn't manage it. Why? That's what we do .. thats what the class is intended to do. Just need the proper tools and understanding to capitalize on it. Basically I wanna say that all of those lill skill based trapsmithing rogues out there can become killing machines. There is no need to be strength based and high hitpoints. Would i rather have an extra 100 hitpoints or be able to heal for 100 hitpoints at the click of a button with no fail?
I play a rogue ... not a gimped tank or a gimped rogue (Sorry if that was a poke at multiclasses .. but there ya have it). Like I said previously, build is up to you and your here to have fun... that's all that counts. But, if you wanna take advantage of what the rogue class was intended for ... then maximize on everything the class is granted ... and that means "skills". I think a problem rogues face for LFM's is : tanks are intimidated by the fact that well built rogues out DPS them by a significant amount. It is a shot to their ego's. What they don't seem to understand is that is our place in combat. I truly wish the kill counter would be taken completely out of the game so we could just work as teams and have fun without people sweatin over trivial mechanics such as that. I'm forunate enough to run with a guild that has incredible players. A well played caster and tank are a rogues best friend and I'm lucky to have a bunch of um.

[LargusMeans]

Ranger, Rogue, Bard, Sorc, Wiz, Cleric ran Ritual elite yesterday, no wipes, no recalls, completed like any other "uber" party make up would.

Rogue, Rogue, Rogue, Barb, Bard, Wiz ran Sleeping Dust hard yesterday, exactly the same story.

Grow up and accept the challenge of mixed non-cookie cutter groups, and in that same period of time we got 2 runs in to the fool that had 2 barb, 2 clerics and wanted 2 casters to run a Ritual normal, sinced his LFM was still up 3/4s of the way through our first run.

[BlueLightBandit]

Easy on Sarlona. Maybe an event brewing???

Count me in. Ran part 4 last night... we didn't make it... but the last three standing were a cleric and two rangers, one ranged and one melee.

Either way, I like my ranger.

[nbhs275]

Saw an LFM for the shroud last night and of course the poster wouldnt accept any rangers. His post said "trying part 4". One of my guildies who has excellant DPS on her ranger got denied cause the poster said he needed DPS. What a laugh, rangers rock in part 4. Anywho, I sent a tell to him and told him to ask those rangers what their build is before discounting them as not useful. He mentioned "oh, I beat 4 all the time and I dont need rangers or rogues".

His original LFM said "trying part 4", but yet he beats it all the time.....HHHHHrRRRRRmmmmmm. Nope, doubt that.


I cant stand it either, I have a 15 rogue that has great fighting skills, and continually get told "there are no traps in there" when asking to join vail quests. What a joke. Guess, clerics only heal, casters only cast, fighters only fight, rogues only do traps, pallys only pally, rangers only use bows, and barbs only soak up mana.

Come on peeps, today is different than 2 years ago. Every Char is effective, and sometimes its the flawed groups that are the most fun.


I got **** last night in a group, before i joined the leader asked if i was DPS, i said yes. I then went and killed about 60 mobs throughout, solved about 5 of the puzzles, and killed the lion solo both times we met them. I would also like to think my manyshots and twf helped bring the pitfiend down in 3 rounds(40-50 damage a shot, about 150 on crits with my bow).

And of course from the chest after part 5 i got a large horn...

[Hvymetal]

but, there are so many worthless ones that they leave a bad taste in some player's mouths (as you level up, this problem tends to go away (hopefully))

also, i do not think that a red-name is vulnerable to sneak-attack damage

however, many who play this game have small minds & i would not worry much about grouping with them, you will have a better time for itActually in my experience if it can be critted it can be sneak attcked, whether red, orange, purple or polka dot named;)

[Aesop]

but, there are so many worthless ones that they leave a bad taste in some player's mouths (as you level up, this problem tends to go away (hopefully))

also, i do not think that a red-name is vulnerable to sneak-attack damage

however, many who play this game have small minds & i would not worry much about grouping with them, you will have a better time for it

most red named are vulnerable to sneak attack... usually they don't throw the cheese the rogue bit by making Red named immune... I don't know about the Pit Fiend though. Unless its Undead, Construct, PLant, Jelly, or some other immune to Crit creature its usually fair game in the puree category

Aesop

[bandyman1]

most red named are vulnerable to sneak attack... usually they don't throw the cheese the rogue bit by making Red named immune... I don't know about the Pit Fiend though. Unless its Undead, Construct, PLant, Jelly, or some other immune to Crit creature its usually fair game in the puree category

Aesop

Pit Fiend is vulnerable to sneak attack ( trust me, +3 holy burst rapier of pure good + 8d6 sneak attack does insane damage.....see my earlier post about him being immune to a 38 diplo :( ), just like any other creature type that's not immune to crits.

[Aesop]

Pit Fiend is vulnerable to sneak attack ( trust me, +3 holy burst rapier of pure good + 8d6 sneak attack does insane damage.....see my earlier post about him being immune to a 38 diplo :( ), just like any other creature type that's not immune to crits.

lovely I don't have the full sneak attack but I still do some fun amount of numbers myself with a 24 (pre rage pot) strength, Weapon Spec, Drow Shortsword, Holy Pure Good and a little sneak attack damage bonus... wish I could get a decent Holy Burst one ... that would be nice.... and 5d6 Sneak Attack... toss in the bard song and I'm a happy camper

Aesop

[CSFurious]

so that means that only dummies would not take at least one or two good rogues into the shroud


most red named are vulnerable to sneak attack... usually they don't throw the cheese the rogue bit by making Red named immune... I don't know about the Pit Fiend though. Unless its Undead, Construct, PLant, Jelly, or some other immune to Crit creature its usually fair game in the puree category

Aesop

[Aesop]

so that means that only dummies would not take at least one or two good rogues into the shroud

I'm thinking I might try to get arun together on Argo ... or better yet get someone else to do it that has more contacts in the game than I to run a mostly rogues run of the shroud


I'm thinking 6 Rogues 1 Ranger 1 bard 2 Clerics and 2 Wizards... or maybe a sorc... but I'm leaning towards Wizards

Aesop

[Delt]

I'm not gonna pick on ya guy, but this **** is startin to bug me. Usually stay reserved in my opinions and read these forums for a good laugh. "Rogue skills are really not that important to the game of ddo"...are you on crack? This is the rogues meat and potatoes. My rogue is a skill junkie. Has been from the gecko. Starting Str of 10 and starting Con of 8. I have just barely 200 hitpoints. If had more .. great .. but really don't need um honestly. Strength is nice to have.. but not at the expense of maxxed umd, jump, and everything that is rogue. My rogue is spec'd for 100% skills. I have two feats invested in archery (though this is primarily for soloing purposes). I have only two feats invested in melee .. Weapon finesse and Impr crit pierce (Once again to take advantage of my classes strengths). My AC is normally bout 43 (of course can be buffed by other classes and such but I don't believe in counting on that.). Not a great AC by most standards. What i'm gettin at is my rogue is a min-max rogue to take advantage of all my class abilities. So am I squishy? Maybe. Am i gimped? By most standards it sound like a resounding yes. Do I shy away from battle? Hells no!!! A rogue is a DPS powerhouse ... its part of the class!!!! Sciasca is a full blown assassin. She rarely dies and is almost always one of the last standing. Is she geared out? You better bet .. so is every good perfomin class if they wanna make the best of their character. I've found the rogue class to be a bit overpowered imho , but it definetly requires finesse to unlock it. I have to work, very hard, for her to perform, not gonna lie. This class is not for the lazy I assure you. I love when people call us kill stealers. Dude no one gets that lucky stealing kills ... what 75% of the time. Thats called openin a can of woopass .. not kill stealing. Sci is a kill count accountant. Kill count is a very unfair comparison and I would love to see a Damage tally for each toon at the end of the quests instead of / or in addition to kill counts. Sci can strip off a fully raged barb of his aggro quicker than a evnin gown on prom night if she doesn't manage it. Why? That's what we do .. thats what the class is intended to do. Just need the proper tools and understanding to capitalize on it. Basically I wanna say that all of those lill skill based trapsmithing rogues out there can become killing machines. There is no need to be strength based and high hitpoints. Would i rather have an extra 100 hitpoints or be able to heal for 100 hitpoints at the click of a button with no fail?
I play a rogue ... not a gimped tank or a gimped rogue (Sorry if that was a poke at multiclasses .. but there ya have it). Like I said previously, build is up to you and your here to have fun... that's all that counts. But, if you wanna take advantage of what the rogue class was intended for ... then maximize on everything the class is granted ... and that means "skills". I think a problem rogues face for LFM's is : tanks are intimidated by the fact that well built rogues out DPS them by a significant amount. It is a shot to their ego's. What they don't seem to understand is that is our place in combat. I truly wish the kill counter would be taken completely out of the game so we could just work as teams and have fun without people sweatin over trivial mechanics such as that. I'm forunate enough to run with a guild that has incredible players. A well played caster and tank are a rogues best friend and I'm lucky to have a bunch of um.

I'm not gonna pick on ya guy, but this **** is startin to bug me. Usually stay reserved in my opinions and read these forums for a good laugh. "Has been from the gecko". What the hell does that mean? Are you just butchering the common phrasing of "get-go" because you heard it once, it sounded similar and you've been making people secretly crack an embarrassed smile since? Or did ya start out as a lizard?

[Targitaj_Silverskin]

1 ranger 1 rogue and 1 fighter's soul stone in backpack did against the demon's queen

[Lorien]

I'm not gonna pick on ya guy, but this **** is startin to bug me. Usually stay reserved in my opinions and read these forums for a good laugh. "Has been from the gecko". What the hell does that mean? Are you just butchering the common phrasing of "get-go" because you heard it once, it sounded similar and you've been making people secretly crack an embarrassed smile since? Or did ya start out as a lizard?

Actually .. I apologize dude .. good call. Was a bit disoriented as I had just saved 20&#37; on my car insurance. You are a scalder as well as a gentile man.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

um... probably hit him... I don't know because I haven't had the chance to try... I have had to solo take out 2 of the red named mobs in part 2 but that was on my first and second tries in the Shroud... Mostly my problem in there right now is just getting in there to try it out. Because people seem to think that only Cleric Barb Sorc groups are the way to go.

Is he susceptible to Sneak Attack?

I'm guessing AC won't matter too much... as that seems to be the norm for raids... Though I am to the point that I can hit 50+ AC and I am workning on 55+

My HP are close to 300 right now and If I could get a GFL item I'd be there... is that enough HP to feel relatively secure in surviving a shot or two? Or is just the Raged out Barbarians that have the HP to survive?

I do ok damage... I mean I don't have the best of weapons but tend to pull aggro off of Barbs if I'm not really careful... is that ok or do I need to be able to Nuke like a Sorceror?

So my question is what do you want me (or any rogue) to be able to do? I have Evasion so AoE effects are less effective against me. I have pretty decent HP (280+ unbuffed). I have an AC in the 50s when Buffed. My to hit is comparable to a Fighter or Paladin's. My damage is pretty respectable about 50 per hit without criticals with my crappy little ml 4 weapon... a pure rogue could probably do a bit more but I like my build over all and with barb buffs I could up that a bit as well. Yes I do less against Crit immunes but I try to have a weapon available to be useful in that situation too... cursespewer disruptor smiter paralyzer destructor... no vorpals yet no banishers either... greater construst bane for the portals. I mean I'm not trying to replace an AC or HP tank that isn't the purpose of the character. The character can excel pretty much anywhere.


So what is it that people want the rogue to do.... just run 6 - 8 quests ever to get them their special little toys while the rogue says "glad I can help see ya next time you want to run this quest I'll be here by the quest entrance if ya need me"?

SO again I ask what is the Minimum requirements for a rogue to be considered for some of these quests?

AC? 50? 55? 60? or higher?

HP? 275? 300? 350? 400?

DPS? 25? 50? 100? (remember DPS is Damage Per SECOND)

Does anyone have an answer to this or is it just a "we only want rogues to get rid of traps we find annoying and nothing else because that's a rogues job"


Aesop

That was one of the best worded arguments I've seen yet. Bravo.
It's about fair play people.
I refuse to bring my Wiz or Clr into the shroud until my Multi-classed Rgr has completed it.
If everyone is so selfish that they want to exclude others from having fun, then I do not want to group with those people anyway.

Finally got to see prt4 last night. The leader didn't seem like he was excluding anyone or going for a perfect group.......funny how we got farther than the previous groups I'd been in.
But it seemed several people did not want to go past prt 3......and when the Pit Fiend wasn't dropping fast enough, they all decided to give up.
Not sure why we were having problems with him.....first time there and I need more experiance to make any real decisions.
For my part, I chose to range him.......everyone said to keep moving, so I did....which meant I missed a lot. But did hurt him when I hit.
Seems like evasion doesn't help much with his blades.....not sure why. But I was never in danger of dying from them.

[Duskraven]

Well put Aesop.

When will people realize it is way more about the player thant the class his character happens to be?:confused:

When I PUG I can tell right away what is going to happen. If I hear players whining from the start about not wanting this class or we can't do it without this class.....bad things are probably coming. It is usually an indication that the group is composed of players that want to complete the quest in a cookie cutter manner that has been done 1000 times before, the exact same way. Said players lack any creativity, or the desire or ability to work as a team member using strategy & tactics.

On the other hand, If I jump in a PUG and everybody says "take whatever, we'll work with it", then I know It's probably gonna be a fun run. And it usually is, because those players usually have confidence that their success lies in their ability to THINK & REAASON, which means they can adapt and overcome. Sound tactics and smart play FTW every time.

[Westerner]

Actually .. I apologize dude .. good call. Was a bit disoriented as I had just saved 20&#37; on my car insurance. You are a scalder as well as a gentile man.
Oy. Watch out for those scalding gentile geckos. They bite. :D

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It's a couple months later now, and I thought I'd just resurect this thread and re-examine how things have changed. (plus I'm bored at work)

rangers are now wanted and desired in the shroud...and one rog is the norm with many groups taking almost any composion now.

I finally completed the Shroud and just as I suspected, evasion and ranged is the way to go......my toon seemed completly immune to his fireballs and never was seriously threatened by the Pit Fiend.

having someone to open locks on part 3 is very valuable......having more than one is nice as well.

My lvl 3 and lvl 8 rogs are starting to consistantly have the high kill counts in groups. They are a long way fron the shroud, but I really don't think anyone can truthfully say a rog cannot be DPS......neither of mine are Str builds either. Just duel weilding good energy weps, and making heavy use if diplomacy and other backstabbing techniques.

Mod 7 promises to bring us some really uber rogues.

Not saying that big DBS barbs aren't still the way to go on part 1 of the shroud, nor do they lose any effectiveness elsewhere.
But a well played Rgr or Rog can do lots of damage and need little healing, especially if evasion can come into play.

Add Uber weps which any capped toon can get and there should be some real high kill count Rgrs and Rogs out there.

But like I said, most people's minds have changed in the last 2 months sine this thread was opened.........

The fight for justice continues!

[Snoggy]

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?


All melee Tempest Spine. I was on my rogue. And was out wand whipped by a pair of fighters. Was an unreal and very fun experience. And we won handily. Good times.

[CrimsonEagle]

I am willing to bet a group of decent rangers can easily take down the new raid.

I am willing to bet you are right. Well.....they did bring 1 other with them.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=141234

[Issip]

Rangers are so disgustingly overpowered that allowing one into a group ruins the fun for everyone.

[Necro_Jill]

best shroud run I have ever seen was 11 rangers 1 bard we finished in just over an hour. No casualties in part 4 or 5 cept the squishy bard :) (but he can tell of the tale how the worst class banded together to make the quest look like a joke) In fact i've started an all ranger guild because in reality any of the raids are just easy with alot of rangers, OMG you don't even need clerics. I even think Reaver could be done w/o dancing orbs if party worked together, those ele's drop fast to various bows and if you have 11 ppl firing em even faster (1 for tanking).

[Blazer]

Rangers are so disgustingly overpowered that allowing one into a group ruins the fun for everyone.

Not sure if this is intended sarcasm or if you are serious.

If you're being sarcastic, then I say "LOL".
If you're being serious, then I say "Amazing how things have turned around in this game since it came out, huh?".

[Borror0]

If you're being serious, then I say "Amazing how things have turned around in this game since it came out, huh?".

You remember how "manasponge" and "gimped" barbarians were pre-module 4? Or, how anything with a greataxe was just a mana-leech?:D

[Blazer]

You remember how "manasponge" and "gimped" barbarians were pre-module 4? Or, how anything with a greataxe was just a mana-leech?:D

Indeed sir, I do. And we can reminisce of the days of fighters being DPS kings, their crazy to-hit boosts, and paladins chain smiting a boss. As with evolution, times change and one must either adapt or get left behind.

[Snoggy]

Indeed sir, I do. And we can reminisce of the days of fighters being DPS kings, their crazy to-hit boosts, and paladins chain smiting a boss. As with evolution, times change and one must either adapt or get left behind.

Is that just a fancy way of saying "It's fine. L2Reroll?"

[Fritz]

i play a cleric, and i spend almost all my SP on heals, so i dont know how wierd of a group you could ever say im in, heh.

its pretty hard for me to come up with a group that would make anyone say 'oh i bet that was difficult' because im a healer, so every group im in basically has at least 1 dedicated healer type. that pretty much shoots having wierd groups in the foot right there.

my guy does have decent strength so he can still melee pretty well, but i dont have any illusions of him being a 'tank' or 'melee dps', i just have that so i can contribute when i dont need to heal, or if i want to solo.



as far as people discriminating against rogues and rangers, id personally say its their loss.

i love having both classes in my groups as long as they are a decent player.


bad players litter every class, and trying to single out certain classes as 'bad' just shows the person is biased.

ive had barbs who run head first into every room regardless of traps or how many monsters are going to surround them, and i have to spam heal them to barely keep them alive and im out of spell points after 1 fight.

ive seen sorc/wiz who refuse to haste the group and blow all their SP in 1 fight and are useless for the next 10-15 mins til we get to a shrine then they are useful for 1 fight and are out of spell points again.

ive seen clerics who refuse to heal, even though you get your heal spells as free spell slots, complaining that isnt what they made their character to do.



warforged in general are a pain to heal and nothing more than a burden on my spell point bar because it takes nearly twice as much to heal their dumb butts. yay they have immunities and they are KILLING the clerics spell points for it.

heres a clue, i would rather cure your disease, poison, stat damage, level drains, or whatever else than have to dump twice as many spell points into you every single time you need a heal.

but i still heal warforged anyways, because im not a jerk to people in the game like that.



so if i went off of all the bad experiences ive ever had and never grouped with those classes/races again, id have to spend all my time solo.
yay for discrimination, isnt it great!
discrimination will end with you solo.

[Borror0]

Is that just a fancy way of saying "It's fine. L2Reroll?"

More like, once you're at the top, then you're at the bottom. Things are circular, you've got to adapt to the metagame. S&B is gimpeedf? Pickup a great axe or push your AC higher. At a moment or another, you'll see the top once more.

[DasLurch]

Don't know if it was mentioned, but I was in a tempest run before that was all Bards. That was one of the most entertaining runs I've ever had there.

[Cupcake]

Everyone has their own idea on what’s needed to complete a quest. Often enough we’ll see an LFM asking for something while omitting something else. Through most of our experiences we know a player means a lot more then the character, with some exceptions.

Lately I’ve seen a few LFM’s that vehemently omit Rangers and Rogues. Even then, there’s the occasional uninformed “We don’t have enough DPS” whine. And there's nothing more hilarious to hear when someone says "need more melee" to a ranger or rogue - it's like saying "More Cow Bell"!

Thankfully this game provides for the dynamics that permit players to formulate entirely different strategies on any given quest. This has caused a few players to BREAK THE MOLD of LFMs!

What was the most ridiculous party make up you formed and how great, or poor, was the experience?

*

Running with the Devils on elite (1 sorcerer, 2 bards, 2 rangers and a rogue); one of the best runs I’ve had with the new content even though 2 of the players went AFK and seemed to just want to soak up the exp reward – No party wipes and the adventure was awesome!

The Shroud with only 2 rangers, a rogue, 2 clerics and rest casters; Not Enough DPS!! This was so quick and easy I didn’t have enough time to finish my beer during the first part of the shroud. If you say “Not enough DPS” in group without “melee” don’t be surprised if you get laughed at.


Last night I saw an LFM up for Gwylans Bard Rogue Cleric I think in party, wanted two tanks and a caster.

I almost sent the person a /tell. I was on ly lvl 7 ranger. That quest along with SC is ranger heaven and they purposely denied a ranger a chance to run the quest because they "wanted more beef" I believe is what the LFM said.

But again, its the party leader's perogative who they invite, so we really cant fault them for that.

As for best party make up. I have two.

1. 5 rangers 1 cleric ran TR in under 40 mins.
2. 6 casters Depths on elite.

What a blast both quests were.

[Aesop]

A friend of mine and I ran TR the other day

3Pally/2 rogue (him)

3Pally/2Fighter (me)

45min 1 death (him)

fun quick run... then we ran over to do Delera but it was getting late so we only went through the first 2 parts... snagged a little on Delera in part 2, but we recovered and completed that one before bed time.

Aesop

[Raiderone]

The Shroud has definitely helped to bring back a little love for the Ranger in all of us...

But come Mod7... it'll be all Monks:cool:

[Snoggy]

More like, once you're at the top, then you're at the bottom. Things are circular, you've got to adapt to the metagame. S&B is gimpeedf? Pickup a great axe or push your AC higher. At a moment or another, you'll see the top once more.

But I'm a halfling. I'm always down below here looking up at everything. People love to rant and rave about this wonderful end-game. You know what the end-game is to me? Nothing but SHINS and KNEECAPS. Shins and kneecaps I tells ya. Shins. And kneecaps. And on the off-chance I COULD get a bit higher? I'd only be staring the endgame square in its pelvis.

/shudder

[maddmatt70]

best shroud run I have ever seen was 11 rangers 1 bard we finished in just over an hour. No casualties in part 4 or 5 cept the squishy bard :) (but he can tell of the tale how the worst class banded together to make the quest look like a joke) In fact i've started an all ranger guild because in reality any of the raids are just easy with alot of rangers, OMG you don't even need clerics. I even think Reaver could be done w/o dancing orbs if party worked together, those ele's drop fast to various bows and if you have 11 ppl firing em even faster (1 for tanking).

We never use dancing orbs in the reaver regardless of the group composition. What kind of tanks and clerics do you run with in the shroud? Let me guess alla gimps..

[query]

and one "token" fighter, who mostly (humorously) complained he didn't ever get to hit anything.


What a blast those loot runs were.


As for the ranger/rogue thing, it's about teamwork, not kill count. If we're not obsessing over the top conquest extra (odd how they can't seem to remember to break a single breakable BTW,) then the goal is to complete the mission. I don't care if it's instakill, spell kill, hackmaster, or support debuff dps backstab. Just get it done.


Stupid saying who gets the most damage. Who gets the objectives done with the lowest resource or time use? That's a better question.


And I love my Xranger/1rogue DW Sniper assassin. Nearly never hit (OK CO6 elite did hurt,) rarely melees but does well when he does, and rarely ever dies.

It was he who told the barb WF "Now when I unlock this door, wait for me to disarm the room. I think we all know TR and that common trap room and what it can do on elite? Instadeath for wf barb dummie. He was asking for me to take him to the shrine, I advised him I was disarming the trap so nobody else would get hurt and could get that chest, then if he listened to directions, I MAY drop him off.

Who said you can't train a WF Barb Zerger? From that point on, he was patient, allowed me to spot and search, and even disarm the traps. He got less damage and was much easier to handle by the clerics and healers when I wasn't able to kill from far away (durn wolves seem to be superbad even to rangers there.)

And currently, I'm trying my L 5 halfling repeater pure ultradex rogue, and learning how to make a squishie rogue be more than that one trap pony. Yep, specialty weapons/transmuting is the key and I'll keep doing that too.

That's my say.

[Thrudh]

Only one thing to say...

If you NEED a certain party make-up to complete a quest... then you're not very uber... So every time I see a standard quest go up that leaves out certain classes... that just tells me that the leader isn't very good at this game...

I pretty much always take the first 5 that want to join... and we pretty much always do great...

Again I say, you long-time/uber-guild players who won't take rangers\rogues because they might suck obviously aren't very good at this game yourselves...

Because I take everyone... and it's very rare that my groups have any problems...

[krud]

All caster PoP loot runs. All wizards and sorcs. It felt like we were running around, crammed in some little go-carts, bumping and jostling each other to get in on the kills.

[Zedim]

IMHO, If someone is excluding various classes in their LFMs, then that person is demonstrating symptoms of severe one-dimensional thinking. When I put up an LFM, I initially include everybody in it except for the class I'm currently playing. If I'm feeling particularly adventurous then I'll just keep taking first come joins. Sometimes people will volunteer to bring a different character along, but I always leave the choice up to the person who wants to change.

I just want to play the game and the faster I fill up a party the faster we can get on the way to getting our XP and Treasure.

Personally, I just don't group with the people who put up segregative LFMs because I know they are probably not going to be able to adapt to the parties make up anyway.

So to all of you 1D thinkers, Good Luck. While you're waiting for your idea of an ideal party to materialize, my group and I will be in the dungeon collecting our loot.

To the Rogues and Rangers who aren't getting love, just put up an LFM of your own and we'll go run some quests. Don't be shy, it doesn't hurt at all.

Amen, man! I was just sitting here thinking, "Isn't this supposed to be fun?" and "Isn't the primary purpose of playing games in the first place to enjoy yourself?" The way some of these guys talk makes it seem like work rather than recreation. Then again, there are those types in every area of life, and they're annoying wherever they appear. I've been booted out of PnP groups because I was 2 minutes late to a game. Oh yes! TWO minutes! Ohhh, and I hadn't yet decided on what kind of sword my elf was going to use before the game started, and therefore was considered "unprepared". Some folks just cannot unwind.

[Zedim]

Oh, and another thing. I don't know about the OP, but having a rogue about has been extremely valuable on a great number of quests I have done, especially if we're doing it on elite where traps one shot even the toughest party member. And, as you all know, in DDO they place traps in every single quest, even when the presence of a trap is a ridiculous oddity.

[JacknCoke]

Well I have been playing me 1/7 rogue/ranger for a few weeks now.
I LOVE HIM!!!!

I see grps all the time excluding rogues and rangers. I don't get it. In the majority of the grps I have been in. I have the highest kill count, died the least (including the fighters and barbs) healed the group the most. With out tooting my own horn i have been the MVP in most grps I have been in. Its great!

I am going to have to take it easy on the grp heals. I have blown about all my $ this weekend keeping up on wands. Its funny you get people who are willing to help a cleric with $ and wands. Come to find out the cleric is not all that great. Why don't people chip in for the other classes who help contribute to keeping the grp alive. I have used a lot of wands to help heal others, why is the cleric the only one who gets a TY and a donation? ON TOP OF it isent the cleric the one always pulling the "respect clerics more" or the LOL all to funny "cleric walk out day".


as its said in many times be4 me. RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well I have been playing me 1/7 rogue/ranger for a few weeks now.
I LOVE HIM!!!!

I see grps all the time excluding rogues and rangers. I don't get it. In the majority of the grps I have been in. I have the highest kill count, died the least (including the fighters and barbs) healed the group the most. With out tooting my own horn i have been the MVP in most grps I have been in. Its great!

I am going to have to take it easy on the grp heals. I have blown about all my $ this weekend keeping up on wands. Its funny you get people who are willing to help a cleric with $ and wands. Come to find out the cleric is not all that great. Why don't people chip in for the other classes who help contribute to keeping the grp alive. I have used a lot of wands to help heal others, why is the cleric the only one who gets a TY and a donation? ON TOP OF it isent the cleric the one always pulling the "respect clerics more" or the LOL all to funny "cleric walk out day".


as its said in many times be4 me. RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!

I find any UMD toon to be more expensive then my cleric.
And any toon that buys potions is always broke.

[Barhai]

tell from a fellow guildy building a shroud group (I was on my fighter at the time) "Is your ranger of timer, we could use the extra dps"...
Actually on Khyber, a lot of pug shroud do ask for rangers (but good luck getting in a shroud group if you're a pally:( ). Due to almost all the creatures in there being on your average ranger favored enemy list, rangers do damage as if their str was 22pts higher (actually more, since they get this full damage on their off hand too), now seeing as a ranger can still get 36Str to start with... A tempest rangers ends up doing more dps than a raging barbarian. And ranged ranger at least don't need to be babysitted by the clerics during shroud 4-5.

And as pigeonholling a class:This is not WOW, this is DnD 3.5 edition you can make a class do anything (almost), and still make it work (but generally takes some creative thinking).

[JosephKell]

A Rogue has two jobs in my book.

1. Locks and Traps.
2. Steal my kills.

That's right, I want rogues to steal my kills. Why? Because that implies the rogue waits until I have a least gotten the monsters attention so the Rogue can use Sneak attack and maybe take a creature from half to nothing before it realizes it was having its back scratched by the sneaky [person who's father didn't know his mother's name].

*looks up* Darn censor. ;)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

A Rogue has two jobs in my book.

1. Locks and Traps.
2. Steal my kills.

That's right, I want rogues to steal my kills. Why? Because that implies the rogue waits until I have a least gotten the monsters attention so the Rogue can use Sneak attack and maybe take a creature from half to nothing before it realizes it was having its back scratched by the sneaky [person who's father didn't know his mother's name].

*looks up* Darn censor. ;)

My Rog 8 got tired of chasing after a troll last night that was being Kited by a Rgr.......I threw a shuriken at it from behind.
Saw damage numbers: 3 + 20!
+20! No buffs or clickies! And that's at lvl 8 from a finesse build.
I'm thinkin Rogues can do some DPS.

[Blazer]

Why? Because that implies the rogue waits until I have a least gotten the monsters attention so the Rogue can use Sneak attack and maybe take a creature from half to nothing before it realizes it was having its back scratched by the sneaky [person who's father didn't know his mother's name].

*looks up* Darn censor. ;)

I wish more rogues knew this. I was in a PUG run of Ritual Sacrifice on my intim build. The rogue seemed to insist on running ahead and tanking mobs on his own. As a result, he was taking a lot of damage, the mobs weren't dying very fast, and he was draining the SP of the clerics rather quickly. I tried explaining to him that if he lets me get aggro first he'll take less damage, the clerics will have more SP, and he'll still get the big kill count that he apparently needed to get. It didn't seem to work.

[Gunga]

Well I have been playing me 1/7 rogue/ranger for a few weeks now.
I LOVE HIM!!!!

I see grps all the time excluding rogues and rangers. I don't get it. In the majority of the grps I have been in. I have the highest kill count, died the least (including the fighters and barbs) healed the group the most. With out tooting my own horn i have been the MVP in most grps I have been in. Its great!

I am going to have to take it easy on the grp heals. I have blown about all my $ this weekend keeping up on wands. Its funny you get people who are willing to help a cleric with $ and wands. Come to find out the cleric is not all that great. Why don't people chip in for the other classes who help contribute to keeping the grp alive. I have used a lot of wands to help heal others, why is the cleric the only one who gets a TY and a donation? ON TOP OF it isent the cleric the one always pulling the "respect clerics more" or the LOL all to funny "cleric walk out day".


as its said in many times be4 me. RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!

You should be capped, slacker.

[DoctorWhofan]

Problem with Rangers:

Rangers, when TWF and built properly, are a very solid class that can contribute very well and truely act as a "melee". Of course, they are shorter on HP (unless dwarf), but they can deal more damage than needed. Even more since Ram's Might. However, many rangers go for bow and this is the real killer. Bow damage, in this game, still is a real joke. Comparing ranged to melee damage is like comparing S&B to THF. So, the difference gets really big. So, when you PuG a ranger, you might either fall on:


That noob with his bow;
That crazy ranger that does amazing things with his bow;
That noob TWF ranger that does countlessly and is a burden to the party;
That well built ranger that leads the kill count;


The problem is that 1 and 3 are the most commons, by a fairly wide margin and that they, both possibility 1 and 3, are a pain to group with as not only their skilsl are lacking, but their playstyle itself is a problem. Yes, you could always PuG that S&B paladin with all Cha, 22ish Str and 30 AC, but he'll be less of a (mana) drain than the rangers as he's got more HP, got LoH, etc.

All classes got their "nightmares", the 600ish HP barbarian, the CK/SF/Acid Fog/FW wizard, the PK/FoD sorc that empties his SPs within the first 5 minutes and then spend the next 15 minutes waiting for a shrine, the bard that doesn't buff (himself included), the Null Cleric that will never heal (no matter if it'll cause a party wipe or not) and waste all his mana in a splitsecond, etc. but, for most classes, chances to have a bad player are lower and/or the benefits far outweight the risks.

Problem with Rogues:

Rogues' problem is somewhat different to the rangers', but there are some difference. The number of rogues that are actually nothing but trapsmith are, sadly, even more common than bad rangers. Sometimes, the problem doesn't lie in the build, rogues are killing machine by their nature, but rather in the player's attitude. Most player think that they are too squishy to fight, that they'll die. Then, you add those who do go and fight... to die. Not any better.

Very few are the rogues that can actually impress a party by leading the kill count, because it is not that easy. It takes skills. Aggro management is pretty much the first thing a rogue must learn if he wants to be helpful at all. It takes tactics, strategy... and well, neither are something I would expect from a PuGGie.

So, what do we get? Rogues that can do the Cabal trap, but finishes with 3-4 kills. So yeah, I can see why they aren't DPS to some people's eye.

But they can still get the Cabal Trap. And all the deadly traps on elite. I have a trapmonkey rogue. SHe has (so far) a level of ranger so she can carry a shield, more weapons available, wand whip without any problems, and most importently, ranged combat. She IS squishy, and I, as a player, haven't mastered sneaking, killing in one shot thing. I tend to kill them, and have 37 of his friends eat me alive. And listen to the cleric sigh and raise me and rebuff me. AS a cleric player, I really hate that.

Do I know I would get serious kills TWF and sneak attack? yes. Not stupid. I also don't want to be a mana drain either. So she ranges, and gets serious sneak attacks with it. Damage? not compared to the front line people, but I do get kills in, I become one less person that the healer worries about AND I can (and have) bring the party back from the brink. I have also survived longer than most. In one party, everyone else was dead, except for a ranger and I, and we traded between killing the enemies and wand whipping each other. Then I raised the party. Not bad for a trapmonkey.

And Borror0: STOP discribing my poor weak Pally! I KNOW he has 22 STR... but to rub it in...;):p

[Blazer]

But they can still get the Cabal Trap. And all the deadly traps on elite. I have a trapmonkey rogue. SHe has (so far) a level of ranger so she can carry a shield, more weapons available, wand whip without any problems, and most importently, ranged combat. She IS squishy, and I, as a player, haven't mastered sneaking, killing in one shot thing. I tend to kill them, and have 37 of his friends eat me alive. And listen to the cleric sigh and raise me and rebuff me. AS a cleric player, I really hate that.

Do I know I would get serious kills TWF and sneak attack? yes. Not stupid. I also don't want to be a mana drain either. So she ranges, and gets serious sneak attacks with it. Damage? not compared to the front line people, but I do get kills in, I become one less person that the healer worries about AND I can (and have) bring the party back from the brink. I have also survived longer than most. In one party, everyone else was dead, except for a ranger and I, and we traded between killing the enemies and wand whipping each other. Then I raised the party. Not bad for a trapmonkey.

Got diplomacy? That can be a real life-saver as a squishy rogue.

[Borror0]

I also don't want to be a mana drain either. So she ranges, and gets serious sneak attacks with it. [...] I become one less person that the healer worries about AND I can (and have) bring the party back from the brink. I have also survived longer than most. In one party, everyone else was dead, except for a ranger and I, and we traded between killing the enemies and wand whipping each other. Then I raised the party. Not bad for a trapmonkey.

You're not going to be a mana drain if you play correctly. Is it easy to play a rogue correctly, hell no. However, there are tools to help you. Subbtle Backstabbing IV, Treason, Diplomacy, etc. If you can use them right, you'll have less trouble not getting squished. Is it 100% guaranteed? Nope, but it increases your damage.

Also, don't forget that if the cleric spends time healing the rogue, that means he's stealing the aggro from the tanks (unless he's zerging ahead, but you call those idiots) and mostly, dealing more damage than the tank. Trissa, I know you're of the healbot type on your nine clerics, that means "I'll heal, you'll fight." that's what the rogue does he fights and does tons of damage.

However, it takes a brain. If you're getting too much damage at a time, withdraw. If the cleric can't keep up, withdraw. Of course there are morons who will run ahead and die, or will not manage their aggro... but that doesn't mean you'll do the same. Honestly, I think you're simply scared to not have what it takes and be a burden. A TwF Dex-based rogue could have done all you've listed. He could have taken out his bow and fight, he can also raise the party. Yes you were useful, but you could have been even more useful.

Honestly, I think you're just scared to try it... and like it.;)

What would the world be if Trissa would not play a support character for once!?!!?:eek:


She IS squishy, and I, as a player, haven't mastered sneaking, killing in one shot thing. I tend to kill them, and have 37 of his friends eat me alive. And listen to the cleric sigh and raise me and rebuff me. AS a cleric player, I really hate that.

Well, it's better to play within your capacities. Of course, when you start playing a build, you won't be perfect with it. You'll be learning and, when playing a squishy, you'll get squished. If after a while things don't improve, then you're playing out of your capacities... and that's not good.


And Borror0: STOP discribing my poor weak Pally! I KNOW he has 22 STR... but to rub it in...;):p

Never!!:D