Outsiders (time for consolidation)

[barecm]

I think it is high time we just combine them all into 1 race called "Outsiders". Why are there not chaotic, evil and lawful forms of any other favored enemy types or bane weapon types? I mean, I can hit EVERY type of dwarf if I choose favored enemy Dwarf or have a dwarven bane weapon, why not Outsiders? Just seems a little silly to single out one particular race over every single other. Every other race of enemies can be anything from lawful to chaotic, or even good, nuetral or evil. Outsiders are the only race to distinguish in such manner? Although a nice thought, it is really just overkill. Just go ahead and consolidate. Make 1 favored enemy type and change all bane weapons to simply Outsider bane.

[cdbd3rd]

I think it is high time we just combine them all into 1 race called "Outsiders". Why are there not chaotic, evil and lawful forms of any other favored enemy types or bane weapon types? I mean, I can hit EVERY type of dwarf if I choose favored enemy Dwarf or have a dwarven bane weapon, why not Outsiders? Just seems a little silly to single out one particular race over every single other. Every other race of enemies can be anything from lawful to chaotic, or even good, nuetral or evil. Outsiders are the only race to distinguish in such manner? Although a nice thought, it is really just overkill. Just go ahead and consolidate. Make 1 favored enemy type and change all bane weapons to simply Outsider bane.

I might actually pick up an outsider bane weapon then. I don't even TRY to keep track of them all.:o

[ViVid7th]

Because Outsider is a race classification, just like Humanoids. The Bane and FE are actually Humanoid: Humans, or Humanoid: Dwarfs, etc.

If they did this then FE Humanoid would have to apply to all humanoids. And that is making a restrictive bonus too wide stretched.

[Aspenor]

I think it is high time we just combine them all into 1 race called "Outsiders". Why are there not chaotic, evil and lawful forms of any other favored enemy types or bane weapon types? I mean, I can hit EVERY type of dwarf if I choose favored enemy Dwarf or have a dwarven bane weapon, why not Outsiders? Just seems a little silly to single out one particular race over every single other. Every other race of enemies can be anything from lawful to chaotic, or even good, nuetral or evil. Outsiders are the only race to distinguish in such manner? Although a nice thought, it is really just overkill. Just go ahead and consolidate. Make 1 favored enemy type and change all bane weapons to simply Outsider bane.

Because lawful outsiders, chaotic outsiders, good outsiders, and evil outsiders are well, not the same :)

Not to mention that this would invalidate currently used bane weapons. It's not overkill at all, it's just the way it is.

[Missing_Minds]

ViVid is right.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Have a look at the table. Favored enemies seem to be about what the bane weapons are based on. As you can see, we are missing quite a few.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane

Considering in normal DnD there is only one level of bane weapons, as all are just the normal 2d6 damage banes, be lucky..... and as you can see, Outsider's isnt condensed, why go further from real DnD? if anything, All bane weapons should be changed to do only an extra 2d6 of damage like it should, and get rid of lesser and greater bane weapons >>

[barecm]

Ok, dwarves may not have been the best example... what about vermin and animals. Certainly not all animals and vermin are the same type. Giant bane/favored enemy covers Ogres, Trolls and all different types of Giants as well. I am sure Trolls, Ogres and Giants are related, but not the same exact race.. much like Outsiders of varying types, no?

Bottom line is I not basing my proposal on what the traditional PnP rule set states since DDO only loosely follows most rules. So, for convenience and to better utilize favored enemy selection, making one superset of Outsiders is my suggestion.

[Boulderun]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#bane

Considering in normal DnD there is only one level of bane weapons, as all are just the normal 2d6 damage banes, be lucky..... and as you can see, Outsider's isnt condensed, why go further from real DnD? if anything, All bane weapons should be changed to do only an extra 2d6 of damage like it should, and get rid of lesser and greater bane weapons >>

DDO originally had that implementation. They added lesser/greater and changed the value modifier to +1/+2/+3 because it was felt that bane weapons were too easily obtainable and it was a bad thing for everyone to have a bane wep for every creature.

[Mad_Bombardier]

MysticTheurge explains it better than me. Basically, Evil Outsider should not be covering both LE and CE aligned outsiders unless the monster is specifically subtyped as Outsider, Evil.

Nor should evil affect all outsiders with the evil alignment, it should only affect those with the Evil subtype. That is, Rakshasa, for example, are outsiders with an evil alignment but not the Evil subtype, and should therefore not be affected by Evil Outsider Bane.

[Boulderun]

Err...


Marilith
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)

Looks like Chaotic Outsider and Evil Outsider are both applicable.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Err...

Looks like Chaotic Outsider and Evil Outsider are both applicable.Ok, so there's some exceptions. :o See, this is why MT can explain it better than me. :D

[Boulderun]

I don't think it's really an exception. In the stock cosmology, the outsiders are fundamentally tied to their plane of origin - e.g. Demons/Tanar'ri are from the Abyss which itself is aligned Chaotic and Evil.

Eberron's cosmology is a little less... robust, so I imagine there's some justifiable hand-waving with regard to outsider subtypes.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I don't think it's really an exception. In the stock cosmology, the outsiders are fundamentally tied to their plane of origin - e.g. Demons/Tanar'ri are from the Abyss which itself is aligned Chaotic and Evil.

Eberron's cosmology is a little less... robust, so I imagine there's some justifiable hand-waving with regard to outsider subtypes.It's the Outsiders (Native) and Outsiders ([element]) that cause most of the confusion. In addition to MT's Rakshasa example are the Efreet. Efreet in DDO are affected by Lawful Outsider Bane and Evil Outsider Bane. But, Efreet are neither. They are Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire). Likewise, Djinn are affected by Chaotic Outsider Bane and are Outsider (Extraplanar, Air). If we had Good Outsider Bane weapons, that would probably work on Djinn, too.

One that is working correctly is Hell Hound - Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Fire, Lawful), which is affected by both Lawful or Evil Outsider Bane. So, some are working correctly, but there are tweaks and corrections to be made to several monsters.

[Yaga_Nub]

How about just adding Extraplanar as a FE? Would that make everyone happy?

[Mad_Bombardier]

How about just adding Extraplanar as a FE? Would that make everyone happy?No. I was arguing for less consolidation by correctly applying more Outsider subtypes. :)

[Taojeff]

I think it is high time we just combine them all into 1 race called "Outsiders". Why are there not chaotic, evil and lawful forms of any other favored enemy types or bane weapon types? I mean, I can hit EVERY type of dwarf if I choose favored enemy Dwarf or have a dwarven bane weapon, why not Outsiders? Just seems a little silly to single out one particular race over every single other. Every other race of enemies can be anything from lawful to chaotic, or even good, nuetral or evil. Outsiders are the only race to distinguish in such manner? Although a nice thought, it is really just overkill. Just go ahead and consolidate. Make 1 favored enemy type and change all bane weapons to simply Outsider bane.

No, I think this is a terrible idea. For one all of the seperate categories are very broad already. Chaotic outsiders, Evil outsiders, and Lawful outsiders are all way broader then orc, and gnoll.

They include every race that is not native to Eberron and is of said alignment. There could literally be thousands in each catergory. And the Devs have already hinted at seeing more outsiders in the future. We do not need a catch all weapon. It is just silly. Learn to adapt just like the rest of us and stop whining.

[Hafeal]

If a point of the OP was to note that DDO (as pnp) begins to grow, it will require "encyclopedic" knowledge - I agree.

This is the conflict of pnp (with handy reference and time to use them) v. live action MMO.

If the reference materials were better and if creature descriptions were more useful by including more description (e.g., like alignment) I think many players would benefit. I think this especially true of younger and inexperienced players.

Players with 15+ years of recent pnp experience are fine. For the many who played dnd 25+ years ago or who have never played, or played WoW and come here, the rules can be entirely alien, it takes time to adapt and erase old knowledge. The game reference materials are not very helpful in that regard IMO.

[Taojeff]

If a point of the OP was to note that DDO (as pnp) begins to grow, it will require "encyclopedic" knowledge - I agree.

This is the conflict of pnp (with handy reference and time to use them) v. live action MMO.

If the reference materials were better and if creature descriptions were more useful by including more description (e.g., like alignment) I think many players would benefit. I think this especially true of younger and inexperienced players.

Players with 15+ years of recent pnp experience are fine. For the many who played dnd 25+ years ago or who have never played, or played WoW and come here, the rules can be entirely alien, it takes time to adapt and erase old knowledge. The game reference materials are not very helpful in that regard IMO.

Far be it for people to actually use there brains for something....

[redoubt]

Because Outsider is a race classification, just like Humanoids. The Bane and FE are actually Humanoid: Humans, or Humanoid: Dwarfs, etc.

If they did this then FE Humanoid would have to apply to all humanoids. And that is making a restrictive bonus too wide stretched.

I do not play pnp, so I am prolly just missing something here.

I follow you saying CE outsiders are not LE outsider. My confusion may stem from char gen where "race" options are human, elf, dwarf etc. Race is not including alignment. So why include it for outsiders as part of their race?

The other banes/FE do not drop to the level of say, chaotic dwarf bane or evil elf bane. So again, why the difference?

Thanks.

[Hafeal]

Far be it for people to actually use there brains for something....

Uh, nice smart aleck response. :rolleyes:

Do you truly believe that a 10 year old brain is on par with an 18 year old or a 30+ year old?

The point was that the game encompasses such a broad range of age groups, some adaption must be made.

In pnp, the DM automatically adjusts for the nature of the group - that cannot happen here.

[redoubt]

I would also like to use some of my brain on something other than DDO.

Showing alignment in the focus orb or examine window would be a nice touch.

[Boulderun]

Far be it for people to actually use there brains for something....

Is that code for, "Far be it for people to have access to resources that would compromise my air of superiority?"


I follow you saying CE outsiders are not LE outsider. My confusion may stem from char gen where "race" options are human, elf, dwarf etc. Race is not including alignment. So why include it for outsiders as part of their race?

The other banes/FE do not drop to the level of say, chaotic dwarf bane or evil elf bane. So again, why the difference?


It's pretty arbitrary. The grouping has to be made somewhere. There are simply far too many creatures in the D&D zoological catalog. Favored Enemy: Dwarf includes Duergar, Elf (and elf bane) includes Drow, Giant includes ogres and trolls... "Abyss dweller" would be an overpoweringly broad category, while "Marilith" or "Succubus" as individual categories would appear too infrequently.

(Although I'd max out my Favored Enemy: Succubus enhancements in a second, rawr!)

[MysticTheurge]

Ok, so there's some exceptions. :o See, this is why MT can explain it better than me. :D

You've mostly covered it already, but basically it works like this.

"Lawful Outsider" stuff should only affect enemies with the Outsider Type and the Lawful Subtype.


Lawful Subtype

A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the lawful-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have lawful alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a lawful alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the lawful subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were lawful-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

Of course that's referencing standard D&D Cosmology (i.e. The Great Wheel). In Eberron, everything keeps their same subtypes but they won't always be from similarly-aligned planes (Both Demons and Devils, for example, live on Shavarath).

But overall, if you'd normally expect to find the creature on an aligned plane in the Great Wheel it's probably going to have an appropriate subtype. If you would expect to find it somewhere else, such as an Efreeti which lives on the Elemental Plane of Fire or a Rakshasa which, being a native outsider, doesn't even live on another plane, then it won't have an alignment subtype.

With regards to the OP's request, you can put me down solidly in the "No thanks" column. And with regards to Mad_B's call for more accurate representation of Subtypes, you can put me down in the "Yes, please" column.

[Erinyes]

If a point of the OP was to note that DDO (as pnp) begins to grow, it will require "encyclopedic" knowledge - I agree.

This is the conflict of pnp (with handy reference and time to use them) v. live action MMO.

If the reference materials were better and if creature descriptions were more useful by including more description (e.g., like alignment) I think many players would benefit. I think this especially true of younger and inexperienced players.

Players with 15+ years of recent pnp experience are fine. For the many who played dnd 25+ years ago or who have never played, or played WoW and come here, the rules can be entirely alien, it takes time to adapt and erase old knowledge. The game reference materials are not very helpful in that regard IMO.

There are many many MMOs to pick from. To me, this game was made for the people who played pnp, or want to experience a game based on that gaming system. Part of the challenge of D&D was that if you encountered a monster you didn't know, you had to find a way to conquer it, or learn from a failure and be prepared next time the baddie showed up. Besides, there are tons of websites and refrences to D&D on the web, aside from just these forums.

The first thing we did after I explored the new content was to open my monster manual and look up the new critters for helpful information. If you don't have a book, you can always look on the Wizards of the Coast site or fan made sites from critter details. The Orthons weren't in my version of the Monster Manual. It took one google search to find them online. Or do what half the server population does, and when you are in a quest, ask the people in the group "what works against these guys." Nothing wrong with that, and people have been doing it since pre-release. A lot of people are happy being a fountain of knowledge for D&D, a rarely have an issue sharing that knowledge.

Condensing race types on weapons would be ridiculous. We already have general inclusions for weapons that pnp doesn't have the luxury of. In pnp, you pick ONE weapon type, like a longsword, to concentrate in. Not ANY slashing weapon. And we already HAVE the option to carry more weight than would ever be feaseble in pnp. Since you can carry 3000000lbs, then if you want to have a weapon for every possible situation that might ever arise, you can if you are willing to use the inventory space. I'm not poo-pooing any of the above dynamics either. Just like spell slots were replaced by a mana bar - some things needed to change to make an MMO version of pnp D&D. Other things, like outsiders weapon damage, do not.

I think added aligment to the description window would be making things too easy. You get a race and type, because just from looking at a creature, you can figure that out in most cases. A dog is an animal, a spider is vermin, a halfling is humaniod, and when you see something like an Orthon, at least in D&D thinking, you can be pretty sure its not from around town. Besides, once everyone has done these quests a few times, everyone knows what is what anyway. If you don't, its not hard to find out from someone you are playing with who does. Besides, not all drow are evil, and not all unicorns are good guys. If the dude in the end of the Running with the Devils quest had his aligment listed for anyone to see, where would the suprise have been when a human that appeared to be good, turned out to actually be evil?

Besides, you aren't limited to specific outside bane anyway as the only source of damage to the new monsters. ;) There should be holy, holy burst, pure good, pure chaos, righteousness, anarchic and anarchic burst for Devils - who are lawful evil. Eladrin's are chaotic good, so there is true law, axiomatic and axiomatic burst - also new Green Iron items have a taint of evil, which would make them also bypass Eladrin's damage reduction. Both races take con damage and, at times and in certain situations, can be banished or dimissed. And, if the dev's did all the research (which I'm sure they have, one of the things I've been impressed with in the past :D) Eladrins' damage reducation is also passed by Cold Iron, and Devils' by Silver.

[Boulderun]

You might be surprised at how much **** you can haul around with just a wand of tenser's floating disc, let alone a high level caster with it and a ring of wizardry 1. :p

[barecm]

Eh, regardless of all the explanations and so forth, I still see "Outsiders" as Giants. There are plenty of subtypes of Giants... Trolls, Ogres, Fire Giants, Hill Giants, Storm Giants, Cloud Giants and so on. These are all different subtypes of Giants. All from different homelands, different alignments but all covered under Giant bane/favored enemy. The same can be said for undead bane/FE. Simply put, I cannot see, no matter how much mumbo jumbo explanation of this plane vs that plane that there is a difference. Outsiders should be the bane/FE type and all the different types should be the subgroup.

[Boulderun]

Trolls are Giants. Why aren't Minotaurs Giants? Why aren't Trolls Monstrous Humanoids?

For that matter, why aren't all Giants just Monstrous Humanoids? Why are Mind Flayers aberrations - they're pretty monstrous, and generally humanoid too.

Shouldn't things that are humanoid just be humanoid; things that are humanoid but kinda icky be monstrous humanoids; and everything else be aberrations? I mean, everything else is just weird.


Oh, wait. It's because trolls are giants, mariliths are evil outsiders, and gelatinous cubes are a tasty dessert.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Eh, regardless of all the explanations and so forth, I still see "Outsiders" as Giants. There are plenty of subtypes of Giants... Trolls, Ogres, Fire Giants, Hill Giants, Storm Giants, Cloud Giants and so on. These are all different subtypes of Giants. All from different homelands, different alignments but all covered under Giant bane/favored enemy. The same can be said for undead bane/FE. Simply put, I cannot see, no matter how much mumbo jumbo explanation of this plane vs that plane that there is a difference. Outsiders should be the bane/FE type and all the different types should be the subgroup.The list for Favored Enemies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#favoredEnemy) is straight from PnP. It's just as messy for Humanoids, but that's how D&D3.5 is set up. So far, DDO is missing Fey, Humanoid (aquatic), Humanoid (gnome), Outsider ([element]), and Plant. We finally have Outsider (good) and (native) in the game, but no FE available.
Type (Subtype) Type (Subtype)
Aberration Humanoid (reptilian)
Animal Magical beast
Construct Monstrous Humanoid
Dragon Ooze
Elemental Outsider (air)
Fey Outsider (chaotic)
Giant Outsider (earth)
Humanoid (aquatic) Outsider (evil)
Humanoid (dwarf) Outsider (fire)
Humanoid (elf) Outsider (good)
Humanoid (goblinoid) Outsider (lawful)
Humanoid (gnoll) Outsider (native)
Humanoid (gnome) Outsider (water)
Humanoid (halfling) Plant
Humanoid (human) Undead
Humanoid (orc) Vermin


Nevermind, Bourderun said it better. :D
Oh, wait. It's because trolls are giants, mariliths are evil outsiders, and gelatinous cubes are a tasty dessert.

[ViVid7th]

For a further point:

If you took an Angel from Heaven (Lawful Good Plane) in full battle garb and dropped her into Stormreach, she would be likely of the Lawful Good alignment and would be classified as a Lawful Outsider and a Good Outsider. By her nature she has the essences of Law and Good in her make. Any attack she put forth, regardless of her actual alignment would be treated as Lawful and Good for bypassing DR.

Now if she ran from her home plane to Stormreach due to some actions that caused her to shift from Lawful Good in alignment to Chaotic Neutral, all of her attacks would still be considered Lawful and Good, because those are given by her existence. She would still be a Lawful Good Outsider, but Chaotic energy would no longer harm her, neither would Unholy Weapons. She would still have the same DR granted from her subtype. She would likely still hold herself above evil.

Now if we take a resident from Hell (Lawful Evil plane) and dropped him in Stormreach then he would be a Lawful Evil Outsider. Law and Evil would be in his make and his likely alignment. If he had a good enough reason and did good deeds not for his own agenda then his alignment would shift to Lawful Neutral, etc, etc, etc.

That is why Outsiders can't just be condensed, forget about being different races, they are from different planes! That's classifying monsters on the planetary scale, and only done through the threads of the energies in their make (Elements, Law, Chaos, Good, Evil). That allows both examples to be hurt by a Bane: Lawful weapon, but not always Chaotic energy. One is based upon 'race' the other upon person.

And no, you cannot get a Bane:Eberron weapon. The Material plane is a Neutral plane, and you cannot create a Bane to neutral as their is no counter to neutral.

[salmag]

Eh, regardless of all the explanations and so forth, I still see "Outsiders" as Giants. There are plenty of subtypes of Giants... Trolls, Ogres, Fire Giants, Hill Giants, Storm Giants, Cloud Giants and so on. These are all different subtypes of Giants. All from different homelands, different alignments but all covered under Giant bane/favored enemy. The same can be said for undead bane/FE. Simply put, I cannot see, no matter how much mumbo jumbo explanation of this plane vs that plane that there is a difference. Outsiders should be the bane/FE type and all the different types should be the subgroup.

So are you advocating for condensing all Humanoids as well?

[redoubt]

For a further point:

If you took an Angel from Heaven (Lawful Good Plane) in full battle garb and dropped her into Stormreach, she would be likely of the Lawful Good alignment and would be classified as a Lawful Outsider and a Good Outsider. By her nature she has the essences of Law and Good in her make. Any attack she put forth, regardless of her actual alignment would be treated as Lawful and Good for bypassing DR.

Now if she ran from her home plane to Stormreach due to some actions that caused her to shift from Lawful Good in alignment to Chaotic Neutral, all of her attacks would still be considered Lawful and Good, because those are given by her existence. She would still be a Lawful Good Outsider, but Chaotic energy would no longer harm her, neither would Unholy Weapons. She would still have the same DR granted from her subtype. She would likely still hold herself above evil.

Now if we take a resident from Hell (Lawful Evil plane) and dropped him in Stormreach then he would be a Lawful Evil Outsider. Law and Evil would be in his make and his likely alignment. If he had a good enough reason and did good deeds not for his own agenda then his alignment would shift to Lawful Neutral, etc, etc, etc.

That is why Outsiders can't just be condensed, forget about being different races, they are from different planes! That's classifying monsters on the planetary scale, and only done through the threads of the energies in their make (Elements, Law, Chaos, Good, Evil). That allows both examples to be hurt by a Bane: Lawful weapon, but not always Chaotic energy. One is based upon 'race' the other upon person.

And no, you cannot get a Bane:Eberron weapon. The Material plane is a Neutral plane, and you cannot create a Bane to neutral as their is no counter to neutral.


If outsiders is just too many monsters and would make a specific feat or bane weapon too good, I can live with that. We are just talking about paring things down into similar size chunks and giving bonuses to attack those chunks.

Now, the angel and demon thing above is a problem. This is great for someone who doesn't need to ever remember anything other than DDO rules. For the rest of us is putting the actual alignment in the examine window really that big of a deal? The ubers who KNOW with already be attacking while other have to target the mob, hit the z key, read, hit z again, pick the right weapon and then wade on in there. And who knows, with the correct info I might actually remember a few of them... beats getting 3 different answers when I ask, "hey, what's the alignement on this thing?" in party chat! :eek:

Thanks for listening.

[barecm]

The list for Favored Enemies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#favoredEnemy) is straight from PnP. It's just as messy for Humanoids, but that's how D&D3.5 is set up. So far, DDO is missing Fey, Humanoid (aquatic), Humanoid (gnome), Outsider ([element]), and Plant. We finally have Outsider (good) and (native) in the game, but no FE available.
Type (Subtype) Type (Subtype)
Aberration Humanoid (reptilian)
Animal Magical beast
Construct Monstrous Humanoid
Dragon Ooze
Elemental Outsider (air)
Fey Outsider (chaotic)
Giant Outsider (earth)
Humanoid (aquatic) Outsider (evil)
Humanoid (dwarf) Outsider (fire)
Humanoid (elf) Outsider (good)
Humanoid (goblinoid) Outsider (lawful)
Humanoid (gnoll) Outsider (native)
Humanoid (gnome) Outsider (water)
Humanoid (halfling) Plant
Humanoid (human) Undead
Humanoid (orc) Vermin


Nevermind, Bourderun said it better. :D

Well, if this were PnP I would agree, but it isn't. So, I still would like to see the change. I believe what I believe and I am glad that everyone has their opinions as well. Thanks for the information.

[ViVid7th]

If outsiders is just too many monsters and would make a specific feat or bane weapon too good, I can live with that. We are just talking about paring things down into similar size chunks and giving bonuses to attack those chunks.

Now, the angel and demon thing above is a problem. This is great for someone who doesn't need to ever remember anything other than DDO rules. For the rest of us is putting the actual alignment in the examine window really that big of a deal? The ubers who KNOW with already be attacking while other have to target the mob, hit the z key, read, hit z again, pick the right weapon and then wade on in there. And who knows, with the correct info I might actually remember a few of them... beats getting 3 different answers when I ask, "hey, what's the alignement on this thing?" in party chat! :eek:

Thanks for listening.


That's the difference. A Chaos or Lawful energy weapon hits on the actual alignment. I can't give an accurate description on how this works, but it is how it works, it hits who they are. A Chaotic energy spell may or may not hurt a human or any other target. A Bane weapon hits on what they are. So a Bane human will always deal the bonus to a human, but will never do it's bonus to anything that is not. Bane (Alignment) Outsider weapons go off of where they are from, not from their actual alignment.

You can normally tell what the origin of an Outsider is from it's looks. If it looks unholy, devilish(red skin), or evil(black or red aura), then it likely is. If it looks holy, good, or righteous (or has a white or glowing aura) then it likely is. Same with the signs of Chaos and Order(Law). What the Outsider actually looks like is a strong indication on where they are from.

But that's only if DDO is actually going off of origin tags for those weapons like they should. I'm not against putting more info in the examination window, just giving general pointers on telling what is what when dealing with outsiders. In a way, they are like dragons. Color coded for your convenience.

Edit: I think it might help to add the alignment chart...
..............Lawful.....Neutral....Chaotic
Good..........X............X............X

Neutral.......X............X............X

Evil............X............X............X

Not bad for a minute of typing...
Dang space editor...

[MysticTheurge]

Now if she ran from her home plane to Stormreach due to some actions that caused her to shift from Lawful Good in alignment to Chaotic Neutral, all of her attacks would still be considered Lawful and Good, because those are given by her existence. She would still be a Lawful Good Outsider, but Chaotic energy would no longer harm her, neither would Unholy Weapons. She would still have the same DR granted from her subtype. She would likely still hold herself above evil.

Actually, a chaotic creature with the lawful subtype is affected by effects that work against both lawful and chaotic creatures.

But to banes and favored enemies she'd still be Lawful since those are based on Subtype not alignment.

[ViVid7th]

I stand corrected then. Haven't come across that particular situation, which is kinda funny considering that the party has consisted, through extension, an Angel, Pitlord (female though >.<) and a few various dragons by the end of it.

[redoubt]

Actually, a chaotic creature with the lawful subtype is affected by effects that work against both lawful and chaotic creatures.

But to banes and favored enemies she'd still be Lawful since those are based on Subtype not alignment.

At this point I must simply push the "i believe" button since I don't have any of those kinds of books and probably never will. Again, I'd just like to see the info in the examine window. Maybe that chaotic lawful monster you are describing with have both things listed. Something like: Outsider, chaotic, lawful, (evil, neutral, good).

Then someone can look at that and pick a weapon that hits one or more of those traits. :cool:

[ViVid7th]

At this point I must simply push the "i believe" button since I don't have any of those kinds of books and probably never will. Again, I'd just like to see the info in the examine window. Maybe that chaotic lawful monster you are describing with have both things listed. Something like: Outsider, chaotic, lawful, (evil, neutral, good).

Then someone can look at that and pick a weapon that hits one or more of those traits. :cool:

Just play a high UMD character and run around with a Holy Burst Weapon Of Pure Evil. Then you got all your bases covered :p

But again, Subtype should be in the window and alignment would be nice (lets say, if someone had a Bardic Knowledge ability... Wonder who would have that...). With outsiders, Subtype and Alignment are two different things, though they are normally the same. The example I was using was a rare occurrence to demonstrate the differences between alignment and subtype that was completely invalid. Subtype is "What They Are", Alignment is "Who They Are".

[MysticTheurge]

At this point I must simply push the "i believe" button since I don't have any of those kinds of books and probably never will.

Everything I've covered in this thread is in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org). ;)

[Hafeal]

To me, this game was made for the people who played pnp, or want to experience a game based on that gaming system.

I think Turbine would say they want a broader base of players than simply old pnp players or people who want try D&D.


Part of the challenge of D&D was that if you encountered a monster you didn't know, you had to find a way to conquer it, or learn from a failure and be prepared next time the baddie showed up.

I am not disagreeing with you - in a pnp session. Time plays out differently in that setting from a live action MMO.


The first thing we did after I explored the new content was to open my monster manual and look up the new critters for helpful information. If you don't have a book, you can always look on the Wizards of the Coast site or fan made sites from critter details.

I find it ironic that you use the prior quote to say how you have to learn from experience and then immediately contradict yourself by saying the above.

Although I think many players do what you do, I think that it poses many problems, not the least of which is that as players, in pnp, you are not supposed to have a handy "Monster Manual" handy to open up for reference. Of course, as a practical matter, many players did that under the guise "my character knew that, I don't." - which, to me is not entirely unreasonable.


I think added aligment to the description window would be making things too easy.

I disagree. If you are going to use the SRD, your monster manual or any other resource, there is no harm including that information in game. It is easier from a gameplay perspective, for many players to include that information in game and does not slow the game down.

I believe the idea IS to make the game easier to attract a broader variety of players, in my opinion. Not to make an overly detailed esoteric so complicated that people give up playing it game.

For the small minority who play D&D and have enclyclopedic knowledge regarding creaturesm you are at the at the low end of the bell curve, I am happy for you and pease understand most people are not like that. But, DDO is not pnp, is not always faithful to pnp, has rules and creatures not in pnp. Thus, even if refer to your outside materials - it does not mean they are correct. And, in so many things, asking the party for info may or may not get you the right answer. People spread mis-information and wrong information regarding the game - not just in game but here on the forums as well. Let me add that for "old-time" D&D players this classification system was either not in place or was much less complicated than currently. Thus, your old data or hunches can be (and often are) wrong.

Accurate data regarding creatures would make the game more fun - and isn't that what this is about? :o For the few who enjoy a 20 sub-category creature classification system I believe this is a small sacrifice as I am willing to bet the vast majority would prefer and enjoy something not quite so intense. And if you are going to have such a system - then have the information available in game for ease, speed and better game-play.

[MysticTheurge]

Accurate data regarding creatures would make the game more fun

That strongly depends on what you consider to be fun.

For some people, finding this sort of thing out is fun.

For everyone else, there's DDOwiki.

[Erinyes]

:D

I find it ironic that you use the prior quote to say how you have to learn from experience and then immediately contradict yourself by saying the above.

Although I think many players do what you do, I think that it poses many problems, not the least of which is that as players, in pnp, you are not supposed to have a handy "Monster Manual" handy to open up for reference. Of course, as a practical matter, many players did that under the guise "my character knew that, I don't." - which, to me is not entirely unreasonable.

Learning from the experience, for me, was obtaining the information after enjoying the experience of the new game content. As you stated with pnp, there are a number of ways to go about getting the information, after the fact or during in some cases. Lore checks, go ask an NPC, whatever.


I disagree. If you are going to use the SRD, your monster manual or any other resource, there is no harm including that information in game. It is easier from a gameplay perspective, for many players to include that information in game and does not slow the game down.

I still don't think it's needed. :) But that's just my opinion :D

I believe the idea IS to make the game easier to attract a broader variety of players, in my opinion. Not to make an overly detailed esoteric so complicated that people give up playing it game.

For the small minority who play D&D and have enclyclopedic knowledge regarding creaturesm you are at the at the low end of the bell curve, I am happy for you and pease understand most people are not like that. But, DDO is not pnp, is not always faithful to pnp, has rules and creatures not in pnp. Thus, even if refer to your outside materials - it does not mean they are correct. And, in so many things, asking the party for info may or may not get you the right answer. People spread mis-information and wrong information regarding the game - not just in game but here on the forums as well. Let me add that for "old-time" D&D players this classification system was either not in place or was much less complicated than currently. Thus, your old data or hunches can be (and often are) wrong.

Very true, data from any source can be wrong. So you test the theroy. What are you really loosing from trying a few different weapons when the new content comes? Everyone does, with or without knowledge, and decide what weapon they like best from their own selection, or by buying new weapons of they choose. The "best weapon effect" for the job might not be what you end up selecting. Maybe you just want to use a vorpal or a paralyzer, because that's your thing.

Accurate data regarding creatures would make the game more fun - and isn't that what this is about? :o For the few who enjoy a 20 sub-category creature classification system I believe this is a small sacrifice as I am willing to bet the vast majority would prefer and enjoy something not quite so intense. And if you are going to have such a system - then have the information available in game for ease, speed and better game-play.

I think MT said it best. Everyone has a different idea of what is fun, and what will or won't make the game more or less fun for them personally. :)

Most of what I talked about in my post was to support my opinion, going back to the OP, of why "Outsiders" should not be a single weapon effect. Because what makes this game fun for me are the above things, which make this game what it is and it is supposed to be: D&D rules with adjusts that are required to make it function as an MMO. An MMO that is just not going to a good fit for everyone who plays MMOs. It's the same with any MMO out there - it might be a good fit for you, it might not. For those who aren't hardcore D&D fans, I think the game as it stands does a great job presenting the d20 system in a way that is clear, without changing it too much for former (and/or current) pnp'ers. But some rules just don't need to be changed to accomadate an MMO, and I think this is one of them.

My favorite statement from this entire thread is this, because it really just sums up the whole point of this thread :D

Originally Posted by Boulderun
Oh, wait. It's because trolls are giants, mariliths are evil outsiders, and gelatinous cubes are a tasty dessert.

Can I steal that for my signature Boulderun? :D hehehe

[ahpook]

My problem is that the names suck. Alignment (nor origin for that matter) isn't really visible, so Chaotic Outsider seems like a bad way to describe it. I can point out a dwarf and I can point out a gnoll so Dwarf Bane and Gnoll Bane are usable. I can also point out an orthon, a flenser, a jarilith and a bezekira. Which of those is a Lawful Outsider again? It might have helped if they had just stuck with Devil and Demon types as that also tends to be specific and memorable.

Better info in the examine window would help but it is really just working around a weak naming structure.

Having said that, condensing down to "Outsider" would likely be overpowering and should not be done.

[Hafeal]

That strongly depends on what you consider to be fun.

For some people, finding this sort of thing out is fun.

For everyone else, there's DDOwiki.

Fair enough. I guess, to me, adding the alignment to the character box for example, does not take away from the enjoyment of how to best to defeat monsters while adding some valuable data that requires less time to be spent searching it out. Putting it in the pop-up box means that you only need to access the data if you want.

If you choose to want to do it the "hard" way ... god bless.:D

[Hafeal]

:D

I think MT said it best. Everyone has a different idea of what is fun, and what will or won't make the game more or less fun for them personally. But some rules just don't need to be changed to accomadate an MMO, and I think this is one of them.

My favorite statement from this entire thread is this, because it really just sums up the whole point of this thread :D


KK. My request was to simply to say, if the choice were to keep things the way they are (and I understand many people like it the way it is) and are opposed to the OP, perhaps a solution would be to make the information more easily available and accessible in the game.:D

For example, rather than have it the pop-up box, perhaps you could find a library with tomes that provide the info to you or perhaps there would be places in game where you could buy information for a certain price. In fact, those wonderful stories the DDO creators went through efforts to make in their monster compendium might be found (with more creature detail) in this manner ... just a thought.:)

[MysticTheurge]

KK. My request was to simply to say, if the choice were to keep things the way they are (and I understand many people like it the way it is) and are opposed to the OP, perhaps a solution would be to make the information more easily available and accessible in the game.:D

You know, the D&D rules have a methodology for this too.

Identifying an enemy is a Knowledge skill check of the appropriate type. ;)

[Hafeal]

You know, the D&D rules have a methodology for this too.

Identifying an enemy is a Knowledge skill check of the appropriate type. ;)

And that is implemented in DDO how ...:p???

[MysticTheurge]

And that is implemented in DDO how ...:p???

It's not....

Yet.

[cdbd3rd]

Far be it for people to actually use there brains for something....

I *almost* wanted to say, "like spelling," but didn't know if you'd take it as the humor it'd be meant as.http://home.att.net/~cdbd3rd/wellumm.gif


meanwhile...
/continues reading the opposing sides of opinions, realizing it's another unresolvable issue.:o

[Hafeal]

It's not....

Yet.

It was a rhetorical question ... ah, so much is lost in the electronic world ...:p

[ahpook]

It's not....

Yet.

I always wanted a game like this to take int (or a knowledge skill) into account. When the dumb fighter examines the ice flenser they get "beastie with ice cold claws" while the wizened arcane would get a detailed description including weaknesses and strengths, likely alignments, whether they are a pack or solitary hunter, etc. It shouldn't be that hard to do. Of course, being on a computer, somebody could meta game that and get around the low int but it would make things easier for those with the skills and isn't that what should happen?