Dwarven Warchanter

[wiglin]

Race: Dwarf
Class: (1 Fighter / 15 Bard)

Hit Points: 353 +45Temp =398 Fully Buffed
Spell Points: 752ish w/ Magi

Saves:
Fortitude: 15 +5Item +4GH =24 +5Spells =29
Reflex: 14 +5Item +4GH =23 +5Spells =28
Will: 15 +5Item +4GH =24 +5Spells =29

Stats:
Strength 16 +2FavorTome +4Level +6Item +2Rage =30 (+10)
Dexterity 13 +1Tome +6Item =20 (+5)
Constitution 16 +2Enhancement +2Rage +6Item =26 (+8)
Intelligence 9 +1Tome =10
Wisdom 8
Charisma 14 +1Tome +1Enhancement +6Item =22 (+6)

Tomes Used:
+2 Strength
+1 Dexterity
+1 Intelligence
+1 Charisma

Skills:
Balance 16
Concentration 26
Diplomacy 25
Jump 26
Perform 25
Tumble 10
Use Magic Device 28 +3Item +1Item +4GH +1FC =37

Level 1 (Bard) Mental Toughness
Level 2 (Fighter) Power Attack
Level 3 (Bard) Force of Personality
Level 4 (Bard)
Level 5 (Bard)
Level 6 (Bard) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Level 7 (Bard)
Level 8 (Bard)
Level 9 (Bard) Toughness
Level 10 (Bard)
Level 11 (Bard)
Level 12 (Bard) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Level 13 (Bard)
Level 14 (Bard)
Level 15 (Bard) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Level 16 (Bard)

Enhancements:
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Warchanter I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II

Spells:
(1): Focusing Chant, Expeditious Retreat, Merfolk's Blessing, Remove Fear
(2): Rage, Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility
(3): Displacement, Haste, Cure Serious Wounds, Good Hope
(4): Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Cure Critical Wounds, Otto's Sphere of Dancing
(5): Greater Heroism, Mass Suggestion ,Shadow Walk

Attack Bonus:
12 Base
10 Str
2 Enhancement
1 Feat
1 Haste
1 Focusing Chant
3 Inspire Courage
3 IC Enhancements
2 Inspire Greatness
1 Warchanter
5 Weapon
-------------------
41
-5 Power Attack
-------------------
36
4 Divine Power Clicky
-------------------
39

Damage: Great Axe
15 Str
10 PA
3 IC
2 IIC
2 Warchanter
5 Weapon
------------------
1d12 +37 +Element or Bane

[geezee]

I'd be very tempted to take at least 1 level of barb on this character.

[skraus1]

I'd be very tempted to lower dex and or cha and get your str to 18. 22 cha is not really enough to land something in the vale, and you don't have enough mana to waste it trying. And dex without evasion or a respectable AC is not something terribly useful. DPS is always useful though.

Also, you probably don't need concentration. This is a buffing build, and you generally don't buff when in combat.

[CSFurious]

you will have fun with this build

i have a human 8 bard/2 fighter warchanter & is he a lot of fun to play

just accept the fact that while pugging most group leaders have small minds & will not take this build as a front-line combatant even though you probably will have more hitpoints & cause more damge than the other "tanks" in the group

forget about enchantment-based cc, you need to be a drow for that

peace

[maddmatt70]

I would be very tempted to get rid of force of personality, mental toughness, and skill focus umd and go with two handed, improved two handed, and greater two handed fighting in order to do some serious dps. can up that strength to 18 if you can. You subtract from dexterity, charisma and con if need be..

[CSFurious]

on my build, i have 2hf & i2hf & can crit with just a seeker greataxe or transmuting falchion of pure good sometimes for over 140 hitpoints which IMO most players do not expect from a bard

in certain groups, i can be high up in the kills because of those feats & at level 10 my str is only 24


I would be very tempted to get rid of force of personality, mental toughness, and skill focus umd and go with two handed, improved two handed, and greater two handed fighting in order to do some serious dps. can up that strength to 18 if you can. You subtract from dexterity, charisma and con if need be..

[Westerner]

I agree with what's been said about dumping DEX.

I'd switch around your feat order to:
1-MT
2-WF
3-Toughness
6-PA

You will benefit more from WF & Toughness early than PA, IMO.

I'd rethink Force of Personality. It provides a moderate bonus to Will save, but as a Dwarf bard yours will already be pretty good.

You may want to go 16 Bard and rely on the new L1 Bard spell that gives you martial weapon proficiency. Or go 2 Fighter / 14 Bard for an additional feat. 15 Bard doesn't provide much as Inspire Heroics isn't great.

[Westerner]

on my build, i have 2hf & i2hf & can crit with just a seeker greataxe or transmuting falchion of pure good sometimes for over 140 hitpoints which IMO most players do not expect from a bard

in certain groups, i can be high up in the kills because of those feats & at level 10 my str is only 24
Nice!! I was also pondering the 2hf feat line for my battlebard. He has a few extra feats from splashing fighter.


I would be very tempted to ... go with two handed, improved two handed, and greater two handed fighting in order to do some serious dps.
Maddmatt, have you taken these yourself and does your personal experience agree with CSFurious? Appreciate your feedback.

[skraus1]

Nice!! I was also pondering the 2hf feat line for my battlebard. He has a few extra feats from splashing fighter.


Maddmatt, have you taken these yourself and does your personal experience agree with CSFurious? Appreciate your feedback.

Yes, my one regret on my Zhaffy build is that I didn't go fighter and pick up the thf chain. If you can fit in the feats, do it.

I also second that force of personality is really not needed because things that force will saves are almost always spells and the bard has will saves as a primary.

[wiglin]

Thanks for all the feedback. I enjoy reading peoples takes on the different builds. I am going to explain why I chose what I chose based on the feedback given.

I have been gone for 3 months, but before that I have been playing battle bards since beta so this is by no means a new concept for me.

I have returned to the game after deleting multiple capped toons. I am building this guy with the future caps in mind. Now this is something that I used to never do before, but at this point I am tired of re-rolling.

I like force of personality. It lets me not worry about my wisdom for a good will save. Fully buffed I prefer to be upper 20’s that way if I am dispelled I am still sitting at a good will save. If I drop the feat I have to wear a wis item or deal with being at a 23 will save fully buffed. That means dispelled I would be in the teens, and unless they lowered the dc of caster mobs spells that is not enough to reliably save 90% of the time.

I do not think it is worth spending the points to get Str any higher at creation. With songs the damage potential of this build is among the best.

Taking feats in a different order doesn’t mean that much. I zerg anyway and will be capped in a couple of weeks.

I will not be casting an offensive spells so DC does not matter.

Skill focus: UMD is needed to have satisfactory for popping heal scrolls on the fly.

I only want 1 level of fighter at this point for the extra feat. I would have stayed a pure battle bard and used the spell for weapon proficiency, but I would be a little short on the feats I wanted. I do not plan to multi any more, because bard levels effect song duration. Song duration is what keeps a battle bard competing in the dps dept. If come the next level cap and bards still gain nothing exciting then we will see more multi-classing.

I also like to use my songs for more than buffs. Fascinate is great if your party allows for it. It is also a great uh-oh ability when needed.

Dex could very well be a dump stat and allow for more con, but I like to keep it at a point where I can hit a respectable AC for non-Elite content if needed. It also contributes to my reflex save, which against spells is high enough to make most saves against spells. Of course as more mobs use spells like scorching or polar ray, it becomes a moot point. Currently though I do not see anything that seems more important.

The 2-Handed Fighting feats due add to the dps of glancing blows a good amount, and if I wanted pure dps I would probably take them, but to be honest there is a lot of times when stat effecting or insta-kill weapon are better than dps, so I would rather have feats that are contributing all the time not just when using a great axe. That is more my play style and less of a power gaming perspective.

[vanderberg]

I have a dwarf 15bard/1fighter and he's great to play, standing with 315hp. He truly is a generalist. I've switched out several feats just playing around, and I currently have...

Extend
Improve Crit slashing
Power attack
Toughness
Skill Focus UMD
Weapon Focus Slashing
Quicken Spell

Obviously the mileage on power attack for 1 handers doesn't go far. Overall spell points standing with my gear is 688, vs 773 with Mental Toughness. You really don't need the extra SP, with 30 minute buffs and spells with such a low dc, you wont cast alot of crowd control, unless its your only duty. Also a spell you didn't take and you might want to is mind fog and glitter dust, since it works on pretty much everything.

As far as gear goes, it's far from a masterpiece.

+2 Vorpal dwarven axe of Backstabbing
Fanion
Minos Legen
Breastplate of Vol
Amulet of the Stormreaver
Bloodstone
Glimpse of the Soul
Green Steel Bracers
Con +5 Ring
Dex +6 boots
Str +6 Belt
Chr +6 Cloak
Resistance +3 Ring

[maddmatt70]

Nice!! I was also pondering the 2hf feat line for my battlebard. He has a few extra feats from splashing fighter.


Maddmatt, have you taken these yourself and does your personal experience agree with CSFurious? Appreciate your feedback.

I have not taken those myself as all of my melee and my battle bard are two weapon fighters so I dont have the personal experience, but i do run with barbarians (axer for instance) and other melee that do. It is my observation and their personal testimony that it really does up the dps. It ups the splash/glancing damage quite a bit when you are taking on multiple enemies. As a dwarven battle bard with the dwarven hit points and constant displacement you are more then adequate on taking that aggro from multiple enemies. Now also from their testimony and others analysis (A_Sheep) two handed fighting is not a very good feat in and of itself so really you need at least improved two handed to start seeing gains, but greater two handed you see even more gains. The OP has chosen to sacrifice dps for saves, but as a bard with a natural high reflex and will saves and a dwarf with the natural high con/fort and dwarven spell defense that is excessive in my opinion..

[Westerner]

I have not taken those myself ... but i do run with barbarians (axer for instance) and other melee that do. It is my observation and their personal testimony that it really does up the dps. It ups the splash/glancing damage quite a bit when you are taking on multiple enemies. As a dwarven battle bard with the dwarven hit points and constant displacement you are more then adequate on taking that aggro from multiple enemies. Now also from their testimony and others analysis (A_Sheep) two handed fighting is not a very good feat in and of itself so really you need at least improved two handed to start seeing gains, but greater two handed you see even more gains.
Thanks for the input, maddmatt70. My own analysis using the jjflanigan tool (latest version of which incorporates some glancing blow logic) agrees, suggesting a 5% single-target DPS increase for THF/ITHF, and a further 5% for GTHF. Potentially more if you can hit multiple targets. I'm having fun picturing the mobs trying to pick on the "squishy" bard who suddenly whips out a greataxe and cuts them to ribbons. Simultaneously. :cool:

What I might do for feats on my build (currently 1/8 Ftr/Bard) is:
1-2HF (swapping out MT)
2-WF (Ftr bonus)
3-Toughness
6-PA
9-Extend
12-IC:slash, I2HF (Ftr bonus)
15-G2HF
ending as 2/14 Ftr/Bard

[wiglin]

I have not taken those myself as all of my melee and my battle bard are two weapon fighters so I dont have the personal experience, but i do run with barbarians (axer for instance) and other melee that do. It is my observation and their personal testimony that it really does up the dps. It ups the splash/glancing damage quite a bit when you are taking on multiple enemies. As a dwarven battle bard with the dwarven hit points and constant displacement you are more then adequate on taking that aggro from multiple enemies. Now also from their testimony and others analysis (A_Sheep) two handed fighting is not a very good feat in and of itself so really you need at least improved two handed to start seeing gains, but greater two handed you see even more gains. The OP has chosen to sacrifice dps for saves, but as a bard with a natural high reflex and will saves and a dwarf with the natural high con/fort and dwarven spell defense that is excessive in my opinion..

Actually I would have to give up more than saves for the extra dps on splash damage. The thing is the splash damage is good for AOE, but when fighting 1 tough boss that AOE isnt as important, so I do not lose any dps, and in fact from the higher saves I am less likely to get owned from a red named spells.

I would also have to give up 2 other feats to make the 2-Handed line worth taking at all. That is a big sacrifice for situational dps. I am already rolling a 5 in a normal battle situation to cast a heal scroll. Dropping SF:UMD I have to roll an 8. That is a little too steep. I could drop mental toughness, no big loss here.

If my saves were all 30+ I would say excessive, but 28 fully buffed with Greater Heroism and +5 Resistance item is hardly excessive. In fact after playing multiple capped toons before I left some with high saves and some without. I much prefer higher saves.

The other option is too multi-class further into fighter for bonus feats. That would work, but I will wait to see what happens with bards down the road. The great thing is, if I decide I want the 2-Handed line I can swap out later and get it.

[skraus1]

The thing is the splash damage is good for AOE, but when fighting 1 tough boss that AOE isnt as important, so I do not lose any dps,

It is not "splash damage." It is a small circular cut (or cuts if you have gthf) that rolls against everything around you...including the thing that you're swinging at. So DPS against single targets is reduced by not having these feats.

[wiglin]

It is not "splash damage." It is a small circular cut (or cuts if you have gthf) that rolls against everything around you...including the thing that you're swinging at. So DPS against single targets is reduced by not having these feats.

Splash damage, small circular cuts...semantics. Actually they are called glancing blows. You get them without 2-Handed Fighting. The feats give you more of them and increase the damage, and it takes the full line to really make it worth it. Not saying they are not good feats, but not worth the trade-off for me at this point.

[Ganak]

Looking pretty good, should be fun to play. I've had fun with mine.

Force of Personality is a gift for battlebard's:) Nice choice.

I'd suggest considering the positive energy line of enhancements that increase healing. I'd suggest with that many hitpoints, a two handed weapon and the aggro you're likely to draw from being a killing machine, you want to be able to heal yourself effectively. Wand whipping while getting beat down won't be too effective.

Lingering song is an wise choice to invest far into from my experience. We want that nice warchant to last as long as possible, and a battlebard is dependent on his songs for effectiveness. Take away the songs, warchanter (which is 2 minutes max and best reserved for big fights or when a high umd is needed), clickys, etc which we cannot have going most of the time, and we're looking at an attack bonus in the 25-32 range. You want your songs lasting long as possible.

[skraus1]

Splash damage, small circular cuts...semantics. Actually they are called glancing blows. You get them without 2-Handed Fighting. The feats give you more of them and increase the damage, and it takes the full line to really make it worth it.

Thank you for the valuable new information.

The point of my post was to correct your assertation that the thf chain does not increase single target dps. It very clearly DOES increase single target dps.

Splash damage refers to the a hit splashing over into targets neighboring the intended target. If a glancing blow was splash damage your assertation would be correct and it would not increase single target dps. However, a glancing blow is clearly not splash damage because it hits all targets neighboring you and therefore does increase single target dps.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Very similar to my Warchanter. I took the second level of Fighter when I hit 16 rather than the Bard level. I played with Inspire Heroics on my pure Bard and just wasn't turned on by it. I preferred to get another Feat and the Strength AP to put me to even.

As for the Feat chain, I go with Dwarven axe and shield (I have some 2-handers for certain things, i.e. greater construct bane, greater aberration bane, etc.. for when I really need to kick out damage). I picked Power Attack, WF: Slashing, IC: Slashing; MT; Power Critical; Toughness and Stunning Blow.

I could rearrange for the 2HF line, but I really like the set-up I have now. For solo play, there is NOTHING as nasty as Fascinate, Stunning Blow, Kill. I just love it. I try to do it in parties too but most people are just in too much of a hurry, so I just use Stunning Blow whenever I can in a fight. Hey, it's nice CC and I am a Bard after all... :)

His Stats now are: 28 S, 20 Dex, 22 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 20 Cha. I have plenty of SP for buffs too, 690 or something like that and 306 HP (?) unbuffed. I could easily get a 22 Cha, but I decided my AP were best spent on other things. I have all the extra songs for example, and I love that because I do solo quite a bit and running around the Vale looking for named and Slayer, fascinate gets used ALOT. ;)

It's the build I have the most fun playing, hands down. I think you're gonna have a blast! :D

[Westerner]

VI picked Power Attack, WF: Slashing, IC: Slashing; MT; Power Critical; Toughness and Stunning Blow.
Hiya. Do you miss not having Extend at all, esp. on the shorter buffs like Haste/Rage/Displacement?


For solo play, there is NOTHING as nasty as Fascinate, Stunning Blow, Kill. I just love it.
Cool concept. Is SB extra effective on fascinated vs non fascinated mobs? e.g. if you miss the Stunning Blow, are they still fascinated? Or is SB simply a convenient way to dispatch them one at a time?

[Mastodon]

Yea and by the way, divine power clickies will give you no extra bonus to attack.

They give +6 STR, equal BAB to the level of the caster, and +1 to hit that doesn't stack with haste.

So, with already a +6 STR belt, 16 BAB, and haste, you are getting no extra attack.

I do NOT know where you are coming up with +4....

[skraus1]

Yea and by the way, divine power clickies will give you no extra bonus to attack.

They give +6 STR, equal BAB to the level of the caster, and +1 to hit that doesn't stack with haste.

So, with already a +6 STR belt, 16 BAB, and haste, you are getting no extra attack.

I do NOT know where you are coming up with +4....

Divine power clickies make your BAB the same as a fighter or your level. So at level 16, a divine power clicky will give you a 16 bab, and as he has a 12 bab this means he's gotten an extra attack and +4 to hit.

[Westerner]

So at level 16, a divine power clicky will give you a 16 bab, and as he has a 12 bab this means he's gotten an extra attack and +4 to hit.
I was wondering about the extra attack aspect of the BAB boost. Have you seen this firsthand? Appreciate your help.

[wiglin]

Yes Divine Power clickies will increase you BAB and number of attacks. It is a common tactic for 3/4 or even lower BAB builds. I used them all the time on my Dwarven Battle Mage.

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

Hiya. Do you miss not having Extend at all, esp. on the shorter buffs like Haste/Rage/Displacement?


Cool concept. Is SB extra effective on fascinated vs non fascinated mobs? e.g. if you miss the Stunning Blow, are they still fascinated? Or is SB simply a convenient way to dispatch them one at a time?

I knew I was missing a Feat, lol. Yes, I have Extend.

If the SB does not land when they are fascinated, it does break the fascinate. But it's easier for me to line up the SB when they are fascinated and take my time. They stay Fascinated for almost 3 minutes, so even if the SB doesn't land, you still have the luxury of dealing with them one at a time.

[wiglin]

Thank you for the valuable new information.

The point of my post was to correct your assertation that the thf chain does not increase single target dps. It very clearly DOES increase single target dps.

Splash damage refers to the a hit splashing over into targets neighboring the intended target. If a glancing blow was splash damage your assertation would be correct and it would not increase single target dps. However, a glancing blow is clearly not splash damage because it hits all targets neighboring you and therefore does increase single target dps.

To me its just how its worded. Two words same thing.

I did though forgot all about glancing blows effecting a single hit mob that is large enough to be in the hit zone of a glancing blow. Should of remembered as it was some nice extra damage when fighting the dragons, but I have been away for 3 months. If I can get a +3 Cha tome and the head of good fortune I will swap out mental toughness, and sf:umd to get the the first 2 feats in the 2-handed fighting line.

I am still an advocate of force of personality on this build. I just prefer high saves, and prefer to get them all 25+ if possible.

[Lizardgrad89]

I agree with what's been said about dumping DEX.

I'd switch around your feat order to:
1-MT
2-WF
3-Toughness
6-PA

You will benefit more from WF & Toughness early than PA, IMO.

I'd rethink Force of Personality. It provides a moderate bonus to Will save, but as a Dwarf bard yours will already be pretty good.

You may want to go 16 Bard and rely on the new L1 Bard spell that gives you martial weapon proficiency. Or go 2 Fighter / 14 Bard for an additional feat. 15 Bard doesn't provide much as Inspire Heroics isn't great.

I was thinking about the martial weapon proficency spell as well for the Bard I am considering.

However, I fear fighting monsters that debuff, like beholders. You would be really gimped if you couldn't hold on to your proficiencies.

[skraus1]

I was thinking about the martial weapon proficency spell as well for the Bard I am considering.

However, I fear fighting monsters that debuff, like beholders. You would be really gimped if you couldn't hold on to your proficiencies.

Creatures that dispel suck for bards 10 times over because bards rely on displacement for defense as well. However, it's only 10 mana to reapply compared to displacement that is 20. Basically you will pause for 1-2 secs and spend 10 mana to reapply when dispelled, that is all. Should not be a big issue.

Beholders are the real problem, but that is solved by getting a quarterstaff of greater aberation bane or something similar for 5kpp on the AH. Even great quarterstaves are cheap and most people carry greater banes of every major creature type.