Elite Traps: Great Idea, Poorly Implemented

[HumanJHawkins]

The new deadly elite traps are great, except for all of the cases where they are utterly bad.

THE GOOD:

Rogues are necessary now. Woot for Rogues!
Rogues can't just expect evasion to work indiscriminately, etc. They have to actually play thoughtfully.
Traps matter and are scary, therefore fun and exciting when there is no rogue around to disarm them.THE BAD:

There are traps that can't be turned off... Scoundrel's Run anyone? The Pit? How are we supposed to handle these quests now?
There are traps that the rogue has to stand in in order to disarm them. It is not fair to make a level appropriate rogue take a 50% chance of dieing just to do his job in a quest.THE UGLY:

It's all well and good to make elite actually elite. But you did it by bending the rules so far that they have broken. You have modified Elite quests to be 4 to 8 levels higher than the same quest on normal. But credit in the form of loot, XP, and favor has not been adjusted.
Ok... the game doesn't need more loot. Arguably doesn't need more XP. And some would even say it doesn't need more favor. So at the very least, why not just more accurately identify the level of the quest as being 4 to 8 levels higher so people know what difficulty to expect, but leave the loot at the level it is now?

[miceelf88]

Well said.

I'd add to the bad that soloing is even less of an option than it ever was. Not clear if that's intentional or just indifference.

[Shade]

THE BAD:
There are traps that can't be turned off... Scoundrel's Run anyone? The Pit? How are we supposed to handle these quests now?
There are traps that the rogue has to stand in in order to disarm them. It is not fair to make a level appropriate rogue take a 50% chance of dieing just to do his job in a quest.THE UGLY:
It's all well and good to make elite actually elite. But you did it by bending the rules so far that they have broken. You have modified Elite quests to be 4 to 8 levels higher than the same quest on normal. But credit in the form of loot, XP, and favor has not been adjusted.

1. Scoundrels run has safe spots between most of the flame jets you can stop to heal in, and doesn't deal any dmg an elite player can't handle with a few fire protect potions. The pit has zero traps you cannot dodge.
2. No there aren't. Theres not a single one in the game if done correctly. Some need special tactics, like not setting off the trap before its disabled, but every trap has a way that doesn't require the rogue to get hit.

The Ugly:
Your confused. Elite has NOTHING to do with levels other then the loot and xp increase. Elite is about player skill. There is no reason a lvl16 average player should be able to conplete a lvl1 elite quest, thats not how its desgined. If he can pull it off purely because of increased stats - great.. If not, too bad, bring someone whos elite to do it. Elite players don't need mega high stats to suceed, they certainly have them where appropriate, but rarely rely on them.

[Alavatar]

1. Scoundrels run has safe spots between most of the flame jets you can stop to heal in, and doesn't deal any dmg an elite player can't handle with a few fire protect potions. The pit has zero traps you cannot dodge.

I call shennanigans. In the pit you cannot dodge the electricity trap when pulling the levers. It is completely based on luck as to whether or not the lightning strikes.

In STK where you have to climb up the ladder with the fire blowing you have to be extremely lucky not to (a) die from fire and (b) die from the hobgoblin casters.


2. No there aren't. Theres not a single one in the game if done correctly. Some need special tactics, like not setting off the trap before its disabled, but every trap has a way that doesn't require the rogue to get hit.

I call shennanigans again. VoN5 has traps that require you to stand in it. There are several other quests I have seen with a fire jet positioned to fire directly at the trap box while the rogue disarms it.


The Ugly:
Your confused. Elite has NOTHING to do with levels other then the loot and xp increase. Elite is about player skill. There is no reason a lvl16 average player should be able to conplete a lvl1 elite quest, thats not how its desgined. If he can pull it off purely because of increased stats - great.. If not, too bad, bring someone whos elite to do it. Elite players don't need mega high stats to suceed, they certainly have them where appropriate, but rarely rely on them.

I call shennanigans again.

If a twinked out rogue of an appropriate level cannot live through the traps then something is wrong. Last time I did VoN5 (we did it on Hard) the rogue died so often while disabling the hallway he had to recall twice to fix his gear. Granted, he should have taken off his gear, but that's not the point. The point is he was twinked, he was experienced, and he died more then 20 times even though he was L12.

Also, your statement that an L16 average player should not be able to complete an L1 elite quest is false. The point of Elite is to ramp up the difficulty of the quest so that it is extremely difficult for a level appropriate group of players. Not impossible for level appropriate "skilled" players. Not impossible for L+5 characters of "average" skill.

[Kargon]

I call shennanigans. In the pit you cannot dodge the electricity trap when pulling the levers. It is completely based on luck as to whether or not the lightning strikes.

as far as that particulamar trap, as long as pay close attentimion to the pillamars and where electricimaty are coming out of on all of them, trap can be completamally dodged. just have to practimice getting to the safe spots fastermer between lightnaming strikes.

[GeneralDiomedes]

In STK where you have to climb up the ladder with the fire blowing you have to be extremely lucky not to (a) die from fire and (b) die from the hobgoblin casters.


Helps if you kill everything up top before you ascend the ladder. All except one can be ranged from the proper angle, that one requires either MM or Jump to target. Wouldn't want to be Commanded in the middle of a fire trap :)

Then it's simply a matter of timing. Expeditious Retreat or Haste helps you get past them faster. Remember to pause between them to time the second one.

[Vormaerin]

Out of curiousity, what is the secret for the Mirra's Sleepless Nights ladder quest where the cold jets are spraying directly on the boxes, ladder, and lever?

I was in there yesterday to see what the new DCs and damage values were, but the trap bugged. The top portion never fired.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Out of curiousity, what is the secret for the Mirra's Sleepless Nights ladder quest where the cold jets are spraying directly on the boxes, ladder, and lever?

Although I have never had to actually look for a safe spot or see if it's timeable (which seems improbable from memory), perhaps people chain casting cold prot/aid/virtue on you would stop you from being interrupted as long as you can be targeted at the top?

[Westerner]

The new deadly elite traps are great, except for all of the cases where they are utterly bad.

THE GOOD:

THE BAD:

THE UGLY:
/signed

[GrayOldDruid]

2. No there aren't. Theres not a single one in the game if done correctly. Some need special tactics, like not setting off the trap before its disabled, but every trap has a way that doesn't require the rogue to get hit.


The Chamber of Rayium in the Desert - traps you have to stand in to disable. The trap box is in the middle of the trap.

[Vormaerin]

Although I have never had to actually look for a safe spot or see if it's timeable (which seems improbable from memory), perhaps people chain casting cold prot/aid/virtue on you would stop you from being interrupted as long as you can be targeted at the top?

I think you can miss the bottom traps by leaping directly onto the ladder, but I don't see how you can get off the ladder without going through them even if there is safe spots on the platform (doubtful, but possible) once you get up.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>2. No there aren't. Theres not a single one in the game if done correctly. Some need special tactics, like not setting off the trap before its disabled, but every trap has a way that doesn't require the rogue to get hit.

That's just wrong. The Cabal trap for one, is by definition one that requires you to stand in it to succeed. It was intentionally modified to make it impossible to do without getting hit. A release note stated this, and therefore anything that avoids this is an exploit.

There are others, but I'm not going to continue arguing. If you disagree, so be it.


The Ugly:
Your confused. Elite has NOTHING to do with levels other then the loot and xp increase. <CUT>
It may be you that is confused. All I was saying is that a lot of players... Especially new players, use the stated level of a quest to judge the quest's difficulty. Turbine lables elite quests as 2 levels above the quest on normal. I.e., Turbine says that a level 5 quest on elite is a level 7 quest.

All I was asking for is that Turbine put an appropriate and meaningful level on the quests that actually relates to difficulty.

[Naash]

The Chamber of Rayium in the Desert - traps you have to stand in to disable. The trap box is in the middle of the trap.

But you dont stand in the trap to disable them,you tuck in beside the sarcophagus and against the wall and the trap never touches you.The trap itself gives you plenty of time to set up before it fully activates.
or
Wait 2 minutes and the trap retracts into the floor.

Traps arent meant to be an annoyance,they are supposed to kill or maim you.

[lostinjapan]

Helps if you kill everything up top before you ascend the ladder. All except one can be ranged from the proper angle, that one requires either MM or Jump to target. Wouldn't want to be Commanded in the middle of a fire trap :)

Then it's simply a matter of timing. Expeditious Retreat or Haste helps you get past them faster. Remember to pause between them to time the second one.

You are assuming of course that the person in question doesn't experienced the *coughladderbugcough* while trying to ascend and get stuck right in the path of the flames (happens to me every time since MOD5 released).

I'm going to have to agree with the OP on this. The increase in difficulty on hard/elite is all fine and good, but other things should have been fixed/taken into consideration when determining the new difficulty levels.

[Shade]

In STK where you have to climb up the ladder with the fire blowing you have to be extremely lucky not to (a) die from fire and (b) die from the hobgoblin casters.

Just did that one on my level7. I did not pre range the clerics and I did not get by the flame trap. I just rushed up ther efast as I could and killed them, the ladder bug actually stops you from moving up to the flame shoot party at one point lol, its kinda like a hint to stop for a second.. I actually got held on the lader at one point too, and beat on with range attack, but I had enough hp to survive.

And its also a 1 time trap, if you wait it out it stops fireing off.



I call shennanigans again. VoN5 has traps that require you to stand in it. There are several other quests I have seen with a fire jet positioned to fire directly at the trap box while the rogue disarms it.

No it doesn't. I've done it over a dozen times and very rarely get hit by any of the blade or lightning traps when im patient and careful.


If a twinked out rogue of an appropriate level cannot live through the traps then something is wrong. Last time I did VoN5 (we did it on Hard) the rogue died so often while disabling the hallway he had to recall twice to fix his gear. Granted, he should have taken off his gear, but that's not the point. The point is he was twinked, he was experienced, and he died more then 20 times even though he was L12.

Nothing wrong about that. You suck you can't beat hard or elite, thats just how it is. That rogue sucked.

[Shade]

The Chamber of Rayium in the Desert - traps you have to stand in to disable. The trap box is in the middle of the trap.
heh.

Most of the traps there are time delayed and will not even go off if your carefully sneak up and disable them. If you do screw up and set them off there is always a way to disable them without getting hit.

I usually just run thru and never get hit by the traps anyways, so all so slow and in poor positions that I don't find them to be obstacle at all - and I always do this quest on elite if any party member needs the favor, even if im doing a quick run just to get DQ flagged.

Infact the spinnig blade traps seem bugged - you can actauly run right thru them and open the door behind them without getitng hit - they don't actually do anything until they start moving - which is on a short delay timer of 2-3 seconds after they pop up.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I think you can miss the bottom traps by leaping directly onto the ladder, but I don't see how you can get off the ladder without going through them even if there is safe spots on the platform (doubtful, but possible) once you get up.

Just did on elite this weekend with a lvl 7 sorc (~90 HP) .. had expeditious retreat on and was able to time them all and ascend the platform safely. I did not suffer any damage.

[Averroes]

I call shennanigans again.

If a twinked out rogue of an appropriate level cannot live through the traps then something is wrong. Last time I did VoN5 (we did it on Hard) the rogue died so often while disabling the hallway he had to recall twice to fix his gear. Granted, he should have taken off his gear, but that's not the point. The point is he was twinked, he was experienced, and he died more then 20 times even though he was L12.

Also, your statement that an L16 average player should not be able to complete an L1 elite quest is false. The point of Elite is to ramp up the difficulty of the quest so that it is extremely difficult for a level appropriate group of players. Not impossible for level appropriate "skilled" players. Not impossible for L+5 characters of "average" skill.

Certainly something was wrong -- your rogue had no clue how to go about disabling that trap. The electric traps can be jumped, and the blade traps all have safe spots. Every trap in von5 can be disabled in safety. My rogue is really a ranger, even, and as such doesn't have improved evasion (or an especially high reflex save, as he's str-based) -- yet he's never come anywhere near being killed by any of those traps.

[lostinjapan]

2. No there aren't. Theres not a single one in the game if done correctly. Some need special tactics, like not setting off the trap before its disabled, but every trap has a way that doesn't require the rogue to get hit.

The Crucible Horn of Agility. Cannot be disabled.
The Pit force traps. Cannot be disabled.

If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share.

[MysticTheurge]

Your confused. Elite has NOTHING to do with levels other then the loot and xp increase.

You can't have it both ways. If elite has nothing to do with levels for the difficulty (risk) then it should have nothing to do with levels for the treasure and XP (reward). If elite is simply intended to be there as a test of player skill, then the rewards should not be significantly better than the normal setting. Anything else is just bad game design.

[Vormaerin]

The Crucible Horn of Agility. Cannot be disabled.
The Pit force traps. Cannot be disabled.

If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share.

Not sure about the crucible, but the pit force traps can be timed generally and don't do that much damage anyway.

[lostinjapan]

Not sure about the crucible, but the pit force traps can be timed generally and don't do that much damage anyway.

Have you run the pit on elite since the DC changes?

[Vormaerin]

Hmm, actually, I'm not sure The last run might have been right before mod 6 now that you mention it.. Anyway, I rarely get hit by those things unless I just chose to ignore them. What are the damage values on elite these days?

[Stormanne]

Kind of a toss up for me. I've got a fairly gimped mid/high level rogue, yet I seem to make my saves 99% of the time. Yet my newer specialized rogue is getting torn apart from the new trap DC's. Maybe one just has a better lucky streak with the dice...

[Mad_Bombardier]

The Crucible Horn of Agility. Cannot be disabled.
The Pit force traps. Cannot be disabled.

If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share.The Pit force blast traps are easily timed and walked through. Alternatively, you can Haste and run past them before they start firing (they stop when no one is around).

[Praut_Ektor]

Two cents, though a dollar short:

I have never been on a run, in the Pit, on any diff, where not once has anyone been hit by the force trap. The quest already takes 3+ hours for inexperienced players to run it, now amplify that by at least 2 waiting for them to try and figure out the traps and how to get back and forth without dying in them.

Rail against me for that, but let's not even look at this for the uber-twinked character. Let's just look at it for the normal, casual gamer who should be the one that DDO is prepared for, not for your level 16 uber rogue with a +95 reflex save (sarcasm and exaggeration, of course).

If we're still looking for traps that you have to run through to get to, STK, again, the big fire room. If you're quick enough you can generally get through it fine, now I'm curious how even my level 12 rogue would do in there on elite. IMO elite has a level req for a reason. It should stick to that. That was part of the problem I've had with the Proof is in the Poison. When level capped characters have issues running a level 6 quest there should be some thought there. As far as I know, you can't disable the acid in Proof is in the Poison. Maybe resists and protections help, but there is only the one shrine, so be prepared to wait 30 mins or more for it to reset. Yay.

Also, ran one of the House K quests last night for favor and there are boxes on both sides of a sonic trap there (I believe it was lair of summoning, but don't remember). It occurred to me then that it wasn't very nice for a level appropriate rogue to have to deal with it, but we had a 16 with us, so go us.

I don't think this debate should even be whether your level 16 uber rogue can do it. I'm thinking about the level appropriatness of it. I am fine with traps outright killing non-rogues on elite. Seriously, they're there to kill, not to wound, but that doesn't take a DC 5600 reflex save or die trap to accomplish it. Rogues shouldn't have to pay with their lives everytime a trap is attempted. I shudder to think of the hallways in Von 5 now. I had a high enough reflex to run up and down that before, and jumping over the lightning is good for a rogue, but not for the rest of the squishies. Even a 30 pt resist isn't super helpful there now...

[Seneca_Windforge]

Two cents, though a dollar short:

I have never been on a run, in the Pit, on any diff, where not once has anyone been hit by the force trap. The quest already takes 3+ hours for inexperienced players to run it, now amplify that by at least 2 waiting for them to try and figure out the traps and how to get back and forth without dying in them.

Rail against me for that, but let's not even look at this for the uber-twinked character. Let's just look at it for the normal, casual gamer who should be the one that DDO is prepared for, not for your level 16 uber rogue with a +95 reflex save (sarcasm and exaggeration, of course).

If we're still looking for traps that you have to run through to get to, STK, again, the big fire room. If you're quick enough you can generally get through it fine, now I'm curious how even my level 12 rogue would do in there on elite. IMO elite has a level req for a reason. It should stick to that. That was part of the problem I've had with the Proof is in the Poison. When level capped characters have issues running a level 6 quest there should be some thought there. As far as I know, you can't disable the acid in Proof is in the Poison. Maybe resists and protections help, but there is only the one shrine, so be prepared to wait 30 mins or more for it to reset. Yay.

Also, ran one of the House K quests last night for favor and there are boxes on both sides of a sonic trap there (I believe it was lair of summoning, but don't remember). It occurred to me then that it wasn't very nice for a level appropriate rogue to have to deal with it, but we had a 16 with us, so go us.

I don't think this debate should even be whether your level 16 uber rogue can do it. I'm thinking about the level appropriatness of it. I am fine with traps outright killing non-rogues on elite. Seriously, they're there to kill, not to wound, but that doesn't take a DC 5600 reflex save or die trap to accomplish it. Rogues shouldn't have to pay with their lives everytime a trap is attempted. I shudder to think of the hallways in Von 5 now. I had a high enough reflex to run up and down that before, and jumping over the lightning is good for a rogue, but not for the rest of the squishies. Even a 30 pt resist isn't super helpful there now...

While I agree with you generally, classes with high reflex saves should be able to survive traps too.

Rangers and Monks have/will have Evasion for a reason. Maybe they'll be a couple points behind because of no Trap Sense, but it devalues their Evasion if they can't realistically save against traps in a level appropriate quest (elite is supposed to be +2 levels...that's what the game says!). Just because they aren't Rogues doesn't mean they aren't super quick, and doesn't mean that their high Reflex saves should Not Matter just because this is a trap and not a spell.

Other classes with good Reflex saves like Bards and Paladins should be able to survive (though maybe not dance through) traps in a level appropriate quests because they'll be taking half damage. If (assuming average hit points) half damage is killing these characters, then the trap is doing too much damage for its level.

[Jaywade]

I haven't seen the dev's comment on this yet, which is funny to me.....my thoughts (as a player I play a lot have 3 lvl 16, 4 lvl 15,1 lvl 14 , my lowbie is 11 I do play a multi rogue and 1 barb w/ evasion)


I think the Dev's broke the traps the other way....
what I mean is for the most part traps didn't matter at all and were a complete after thought (which I would say was broken....[I]

now the damage is way over the top (damage is some places seem to be be 3 x as much)and the DC's checks for evasion are [I]way out of wack, to the point where there are a lot of traps that just killers to all except those running around the highest possible relfex's and full evasion..... while the didable and spot and search DC's are all okay, if you have to cross the traps in many places you are done.... and anyone who had splashed rogue and had a mid 20 relfex now basicaly just wasted the 2 lvl and gimped thier toon (in terms of traps evasion is still handy for some spells effects)


Dev's you went a little to far, it seems like where the reflex save might of been 30 you took it to as high as 45-50 range...just this morning I was in HIPS and got hit w/ a spike trap on a roll of 18 +18 so a roll of 36 failed on a lvl 10 quest (playing my evasion barb)
that seems a bit broken... honestly some pure rogues don't have a high enough reflex now, hoenstly if I was going to roll up a trap monkey now I'd go 14/2 rogue/pally halfing casue the reflex's dc's are way too high ... I say scale it back to half the distance from where they were to where they are now was 30- now 50 make it 40.....just my thoughts

[kruggar]

my thoughts..

the ddo enhancement system increase the diference of the reflex of pure rogue and pure ranger when talking about evasion of traps.

the devs increased the dc too much to make the rogue a need in the quest and avoyd the multiclass rogues or rangers to bypass the traps unharmed.

i made a wizrd with 1 rogue lvl a long time ago.. planning to be an arcane trickster and its very good in that, with the new lvl increase i took my second rogue lvl to gain evasion and the insightfull reflex to use my 34 int in place of my 24 dex.. reached the 30s reflex save and for my surprise its the same as dont have evasion in elite high lvl traps. Died a few time in temple of vol relying in my new evasion. I agree that a pure rogue can have a high refelx save then a wizard with 2 rogue lvls, but it seems that the dificulty of the traps are way too high.

30s reflex save is high enought to dodge all AoE spells sent against me and i still not able to avoid a trap? theres something wrong in here.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes, I agree entirely!

The old dungeons were not designed with these DCs in mind.

A quest should be completable without a certain build.

Even on elite.

Optionals are a different story.

IMO.

[Praut_Ektor]

One more thing ocurred to me from running those quests last night:

Level 15 cleric, 200 hit points, by no means a real tank or anything to look at, but we were in one of House K quests and I managed to do the good ol' barbarian move and run into an electric trap. I don't need no 95 spot to see traps, watch!

Yeah, dead. It was like a level 8 quest total. I checked the combat log and in 3 ticks I took 90 pts of dmg a tick. That was about 3 seconds worth. In all fairness, my reflex sucks and didn't have resist electricity on, but this for me has the same problem that I run into with the orc I had problems with yesterday.

When something is so far below your level, there should be no challenge, which is why we wait until higher levels to get favor.

Why should I have to worry about dieing in a quest that is 7-8 levels lower than I am? I didn't fall asleep, I just ran through a trap.

Why should a CR 2 orc with -18 to his will save be able to resist a 32 DC will save based spell?

These are the things that I want to know. Difference in styles I guess, and yeah, I know it's the rules, but I don't think that the DCs and damage needed to be boosted to the levels to make a level capped character affraid if it's still half his level.

If it's a level 6 quest on elite, it should kill or scare level 6 people, it should be a challenge for level 8 people and it should be laughed at if you're level 16.

[Vizzini]

/signed
/signed again
/signed one more time
/signed once again for good measure!


I call shennanigans. In the pit you cannot dodge the electricity trap when pulling the levers. It is completely based on luck as to whether or not the lightning strikes.

In STK where you have to climb up the ladder with the fire blowing you have to be extremely lucky not to (a) die from fire and (b) die from the hobgoblin casters.



I call shennanigans again. VoN5 has traps that require you to stand in it. There are several other quests I have seen with a fire jet positioned to fire directly at the trap box while the rogue disarms it.



I call shennanigans again.

If a twinked out rogue of an appropriate level cannot live through the traps then something is wrong. Last time I did VoN5 (we did it on Hard) the rogue died so often while disabling the hallway he had to recall twice to fix his gear. Granted, he should have taken off his gear, but that's not the point. The point is he was twinked, he was experienced, and he died more then 20 times even though he was L12.

Also, your statement that an L16 average player should not be able to complete an L1 elite quest is false. The point of Elite is to ramp up the difficulty of the quest so that it is extremely difficult for a level appropriate group of players. Not impossible for level appropriate "skilled" players. Not impossible for L+5 characters of "average" skill.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

One more thing ocurred to me from running those quests last night:

Level 15 cleric, 200 hit points, by no means a real tank or anything to look at, but we were in one of House K quests and I managed to do the good ol' barbarian move and run into an electric trap. I don't need no 95 spot to see traps, watch!

Yeah, dead. It was like a level 8 quest total. I checked the combat log and in 3 ticks I took 90 pts of dmg a tick. That was about 3 seconds worth. In all fairness, my reflex sucks and didn't have resist electricity on, but this for me has the same problem that I run into with the orc I had problems with yesterday.

When something is so far below your level, there should be no challenge, which is why we wait until higher levels to get favor.

Why should I have to worry about dieing in a quest that is 7-8 levels lower than I am? I didn't fall asleep, I just ran through a trap.

Why should a CR 2 orc with -18 to his will save be able to resist a 32 DC will save based spell?

These are the things that I want to know. Difference in styles I guess, and yeah, I know it's the rules, but I don't think that the DCs and damage needed to be boosted to the levels to make a level capped character affraid if it's still half his level.

If it's a level 6 quest on elite, it should kill or scare level 6 people, it should be a challenge for level 8 people and it should be laughed at if you're level 16.

I've noticed this too.
For one thing, I've never understood how I can get hit by a trap three time in a split second.....faster than I can possibly react.

I would have less of a problem with high damage traps if they only hit you once and then gave you time to react, and possible get out of the trap......even worse when the trap is set off by opening a chest....and you cant move because the chest window is open.

And saves for baddies on elite................Harbor Kobolds save 25% of the time or more against spells from my 32Int Wiz.
Something wrong there I think.
Takes an average of three hits from my capped toons weapons to kill a Harbor Kobold on elite.....doesn't seem right either.

[MysticTheurge]

I've noticed this too.
For one thing, I've never understood how I can get hit by a trap three time in a split second.....faster than I can possibly react.

Generally that means there are actually three traps there.

For example, the other day I did Grey Moon again. The bridge with the force traps has a trap on each side pointing center, so if you get hit, you're actually getting hit by two force traps.

[Jaywade]

what I think is funny there has been a lot of input (not just in this thread) about the how the traps are now (broken I think) and not 1 dev response....but if I called MT a complete @#$@$% I would get points and a locked thread in a timely manner.....the traps DC for reflex save needs to be address ...haven't heard a dev said boo about it or seen anything in the WDa about it either

[Ranmaru2]

The Crucible Horn of Agility. Cannot be disabled.
The Pit force traps. Cannot be disabled.

If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share.

1) Get through fast enough so you don't get hit and learn to jump
2) Don't go running super fast to get to the next room AND you can JUMP the force blasts...

And as for the person earlier. There's a safe spot by every one of those pillars in The Pit in the electric room. As someone who has run the Muck Doom chest at least 200x, I definitely know what I'm talking about. No luck involved. Here I'll give you even more of a spoiler for it. You know those blue dots on the pillars? The lightning shoots straight across to those, and only an occasional place in there shoots to the switch directly (only about 4 places that do).

[MysticTheurge]

what I think is funny there has been a lot of input (not just in this thread) about the how the traps are now (broken I think) and not 1 dev response....but if I called MT a complete @#$@$% I would get points and a locked thread in a timely manner.....the traps DC for reflex save needs to be address ...haven't heard a dev said boo about it or seen anything in the WDa about it either

I'm no at-pound-dollar-at-dollar-percent!

[Ranmaru2]

I'm no at-pound-dollar-at-dollar-percent!

OH YES YOU ARE! :D

[Jaywade]

I'm no at-pound-dollar-at-dollar-percent!

okay a @#%$^&@# then ;)

[GreyRogue]

what I think is funny there has been a lot of input (not just in this thread) about the how the traps are now (broken I think) and not 1 dev response....but if I called MT a complete @#$@$% I would get points and a locked thread in a timely manner.....the traps DC for reflex save needs to be address ...haven't heard a dev said boo about it or seen anything in the WDa about it either
True enough. Of course, Tolero doesn't need to talk to the developers to find out the status of a fix to keep you from violating the forum's rules or talk to the powers that be about what the company line is going to be about your attacks on MT (although I'm sure he deserves them ;)).

[MysticTheurge]

okay a @#&#37;$^&@# then ;)

Caret!?! Now you're just being hurtful. ;___;

[DSL]

what I think is funny there has been a lot of input (not just in this thread) about the how the traps are now (broken I think) and not 1 dev response....but if I called MT a complete @#$@$% I would get points and a locked thread in a timely manner.....the traps DC for reflex save needs to be address ...haven't heard a dev said boo about it or seen anything in the WDa about it either


Just because someone asks a question, doesn't mean they are entitled to a response. Perhaps the devs are considering things, and accumulating feedback before they comment on this. Also, the WDA did include a change to Rogues and Barbarians trap sense bonuses, essentially doubling the progression. This alone suggests that the devs solution is to make devoted rogues more vaible with the inflated save DCs.

However, I will point out that for a long time, there were many threads asking for traps to be upgraded in some way, in which the majority of the player base agreed that traps should be at least more inconvenient, if not more deadly. Now that they have been "upgraded", the complaint threads are rampant. What exactly do you think the knee-jerk response to this "can't please all the people all the time" situation would be from the devs?

I'm not saying the changes are ideal. The fact is, my rogue has so far almost exclusively been running new content, so I haven't really noticed the differences, and thus don't feel qualified to comment on whether the new DC's are apropriate. However, it does seem to me that the devs gave the players what they were asking for. Will they revise the DC's? Perhaps, but I am confident that they will consider the situation and feedback before promising to do so, and I can only assume that a dev response now would be premature, and probably taken the wrong way.

[Jaywade]

True enough. Of course, Tolero doesn't need to talk to the developers to find out the status of a fix to keep you from violating the forum's rules or talk to the powers that be about what the company line is going to be about your attacks on MT (although I'm sure he deserves them ;)).

don't think I broke a rule.... I'm putting the #$#%# in not some filter ..... and it is very tongue in cheek....you I don't know....btw I posted "if I called MT a @$#$#" I didn't call him a @$#$ ...if is a big word sometimes....also I don't think I'd call on Torelo to answer this she's more of a fourm mod if you ask me....beside that is my point...call someone a name you get action, something is released that people can abuse (in game) we get qucik downtimes and quick fixes, the dev's break something (changes to the abbot after it got beat this mod's trap fix) and we get nothing in the lines of okay let's look at it or address it or fix it...not cool ....(and btw I'm not for name calling and such I just would like to see issues in game receive the lvl of attention that name calling receives here)

[llevenbaxx]

Also, the WDA did include a change to Rogues and Barbarians trap sense bonuses, essentially doubling the progression. This alone suggests that the devs solution is to make devoted rogues more vaible with the inflated save DCs.



You dont think the raised save DCs and the trapsense enhancement being upped were a one-two punch that were fully planned together? Interesting.

[DSL]

You dont think the raised save DCs and the trapsense enhancement being upped were a one-two punch that were fully planned together? Interesting.


They are being inplemented in seperate updates, which suggests to me that one is perhaps a response to the other. Perhaps they were planned together and released seperately for logictical purposes, but my belief is that they wanted to see how it would be handled before upping the players' saves to compensate.

[Jaywade]

Just because someone asks a question, doesn't mean they are entitled to a response. Perhaps the devs are considering things, and accumulating feedback before they comment on this. Also, the WDA did include a change to Rogues and Barbarians trap sense bonuses, essentially doubling the progression. This alone suggests that the devs solution is to make devoted rogues more vaible with the inflated save DCs.

However, I will point out that for a long time, there were many threads asking for traps to be upgraded in some way, in which the majority of the player base agreed that traps should be at least more inconvenient, if not more deadly. Now that they have been "upgraded", the complaint threads are rampant. What exactly do you think the knee-jerk response to this "can't please all the people all the time" situation would be from the devs?

I'm not saying the changes are ideal. The fact is, my rogue has so far almost exclusively been running new content, so I haven't really noticed the differences, and thus don't feel qualified to comment on whether the new DC's are apropriate. However, it does seem to me that the devs gave the players what they were asking for. Will they revise the DC's? Perhaps, but I am confident that they will consider the situation and feedback before promising to do so, and I can only assume that a dev response now would be premature, and probably taken the wrong way.

I too wanted to see traps tweeked a bit, my point is they over fixed/broke it.....the reflex DC's are way too high.... and many people feel as I do ...so I don't think it's out of line to ask for a response....and again my point if it was something that was broken as far as getting a chest or a exploit it would fixed quickly

[DSL]

[...]beside that is my point...call someone a name you get action, something is released that people can abuse (in game) we get qucik downtimes and quick fixes, the dev's break something (changes to the abbot after it got beat this mod's trap fix) and we get nothing in the lines of okay let's look at it or address it or fix it...not cool ....(and btw I'm not for name calling and such I just would like to see issues in game receive the lvl of attention that name calling receives here)

The thing is, the forum moderators jobs are to closely monitor the forums, thus leading to a quick response, while the devs jobs include forum-monitoring only peripherally. Also, a forum moderator can close a thread or penalize a poster with minimal time and effort, while changes to the game are a little more involved. My point is, expecting as quick a response is unrealistic, not to mention the fact that your opinion that the trap DCs are now broken is still a matter for debate, unlike a known bug.

[Ranmaru2]

Just another example of how people want something changed and then don't want it once they see the reality of it. Hey, this one's on you guys who are on here criticizing on the forums all the time. The people who avoid the forums or just don't come here are fine with everything, so it would seem, unless they voice a complaint in the game and then maybe someone transcribes that complaint to here.

[Jaywade]

The thing is, the forum moderators jobs are to closely monitor the forums, thus leading to a quick response, while the devs jobs include forum-monitoring only peripherally. Also, a forum moderator can close a thread or penalize a poster with minimal time and effort, while changes to the game are a little more involved. My point is, expecting as quick a response is unrealistic, not to mention the fact that your opinion that the trap DCs are now broken is still a matter for debate, unlike a known bug.


I wouldn't it's debateable.... lvl 1 quest (one of the goodblades) has a blade trap w/ a save DC of 32 now a a lvl 1 drow could have a reflex of 9 (20 dex +5 +2 lvl 1 rogue reflex +2 reflex feat lighting reflex I think ) so I think they are a bit out of wack.... btw I think they were out of wack the other way before they made these changes they over fixed it

[llevenbaxx]

All it would really take from Turbine is a "We planned the elite setting to include the the use of twitch skills and safe spots, not character build". I would be ok with this if they then made it impossible for any build to make the saves, otherwise it seems they are basically making our characters for us.


From what Ive seen so far of Turbine is they take a vow of silence on anything that gets alot of negative feedback. Annoying but understandable to let the hooplah die down I guess.

[DSL]

I wouldn't it's debateable.... lvl 1 quest (one of the goodblades) has a blade trap w/ a save DC of 32 now a a lvl 1 drow could have a reflex of 9 (20 dex +5 +2 lvl 1 rogue reflex +2 reflex feat lighting reflex I think ) so I think they are a bit out of wack.... btw I think they were out of wack the other way before they made these changes they over fixed it

On normal? I assume this DC is on elite, which changes things (not least of which is the quest's level), but even so I would agree that DC 32 is high. Don't get me wrong, I think they should have upped either damage or DC's, but not both at once, but the subject is very much still open to debate, which is what these theads are doing. So far, my rogue hasn;t had any real trouble, but as I had previously stated I have not re-run much older content since this so I won't hold that up as evidence. I wouldn't be too surprised if the DC's were revised soon, but don't assume that the reaction you and many are having wasn't entirely expected from the Dev's. The upcoming increase to Trap Sense will help the situation for rogues who are having trouble, but others may have to compensate in other ways, if the dev's decide, after all this debate, that the current DC's/damages are warranted.

[Jaywade]

Just another example of how people want something changed and then don't want it once they see the reality of it. Hey, this one's on you guys who are on here criticizing on the forums all the time. The people who avoid the forums or just don't come here are fine with everything, so it would seem, unless they voice a complaint in the game and then maybe someone transcribes that complaint to here.
there is a lot of problems w/ traps now, many are avoidable some are not and I'm seeing even pure rogues have problems w/ some content (btw I run a multi rogue w/ only 10 lvls of rogue a 34 dex and a +5 resistance item, I haven't run into a huge problem yet but my rogue has about 250 hp but I have gotten hit where I almost never did before unless I rolled a 1) I again think traps needed to be up a bit I just think they took them too far0


All it would really take from Turbine is a "We planned the elite setting to include the the use of twitch skills and safe spots, not character build". I would be ok with this if they then made it impossible for any build to make the saves, otherwise it seems they are basically making our characters for us.


From what Ive seen so far of Turbine is they take a vow of silence on anything that gets alot of negative feedback. Annoying but understandable to let the hooplah die down I guess.

I agree talk to us, casue right now what they have done is make a lot of evasion builds poor builds, now changes like this are bad for the game casue if player a has been playing his evasion pally for 2 yrs rerolled once they made the armor change (to evasion) , rerolled for 32 pt build, now he has to reroll again (maybe to halfing??) or his stop playing this toon he's been playing for 2 yrs...it's just not smart ...anyone w/ evasion and a mid 20 reflex could dance in a trap before ....should that have been changed a bit yes.... but to go to a 25 need reflex to a 45 needed reflex is too much IMO


On normal? I assume this DC is on elite, which changes things (not least of which is the quest's level), but even so I would agree that DC 32 is high. Don't get me wrong, I think they should have upped either damage or DC's, but not both at once, but the subject is very much still open to debate, which is what these theads are doing. So far, my rogue hasn;t had any real trouble, but as I had previously stated I have not re-run much older content since this so I won't hold that up as evidence. I wouldn't be too surprised if the DC's were revised soon, but don't assume that the reaction you and many are having wasn't entirely expected from the Dev's. The upcoming increase to Trap Sense will help the situation for rogues who are having trouble, but others may have to compensate in other ways, if the dev's decide, after all this debate, that the current DC's/damages are warranted.
yeah use the search you can find it I think MT posted it as a matter of fact... I just think they took them up too much


used to be a 20 now a 40 make them a 30

[unionyes]

[QUOTE=Alavatar;1551161]
If a twinked out rogue of an appropriate level cannot live through the traps then something is wrong. Last time I did VoN5 (we did it on Hard) the rogue died so often while disabling the hallway he had to recall twice to fix his gear. Granted, he should have taken off his gear, but that's not the point. The point is he was twinked, he was experienced, and he died more then 20 times even though he was L12.

I managed the traps on VON on hard at level 11. I am not that heavily twinked (DD +7 gloves at level 11) although I do have WoM and Nimble Fingers, was using +4 tools, and managed to stay alive. I am far from an 'experienced' player, been playing for about 6 months, mostly casters this is my first rogue, and playing casually at that. I am nowhere near being an uber rogue. It was hard, sure, and took a while, but it was doable. Cost me some potions and some wand whipping along with the tools, but I managed.

I don't think the traps are too hard at all. Kinda nice that people have to actually stop when they are there, and running through one can mean that you may die. When I played PnP a lot, there were two kinds of traps that the DM would throw at us. The kill ya traps, where if you didn't disable them you would prolly die, and the slow ya traps, where you either couldn't disable them or it was almost impossible to disable them, but they wouldn't wipe the party, they would just use resources to get through, like heal spells afterward, resists before hand, stuff like that. The idea was to deplete some of the party resources before facing a tough fight.

Maybe this is like that?

[lostinjapan]

1) Get through fast enough so you don't get hit and learn to jump
2) Don't go running super fast to get to the next room AND you can JUMP the force blasts...

And as for the person earlier. There's a safe spot by every one of those pillars in The Pit in the electric room. As someone who has run the Muck Doom chest at least 200x, I definitely know what I'm talking about. No luck involved. Here I'll give you even more of a spoiler for it. You know those blue dots on the pillars? The lightning shoots straight across to those, and only an occasional place in there shoots to the switch directly (only about 4 places that do).

You know, as someone who has not only RUN The Pit at least 200x but has soloed it most of those times, inviting others into my group only for the muck doom chest, I kind of resent being talked down to like I am a noob who doesn't understand there are safe spots and such.

My point was exactly as I stated it.

"If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share."

This means, if you know of a way to run either of those two without getting hit AT LEAST ONCE, please...feel free to share."

And UNLESS you have run either of those two quests on elite SINCE THE CHANGES, please do not comment on the "limited damage" they produce on elite. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Raithe]

Annoying but understandable to let the hooplah die down I guess.

I can virtually guarantee that between this and the search/spot DCs problem, they have lost more customers (existing and new) over trapsmithing than over any other controversial change, bug, or downtime.

Preparing the playerbase beforehand, fully, and discussing the game behaviors that would arise from the changes would have made things better. I think, sadly, that many of these changes are petty acts of defiance, or at the very least viewed as exploit fixes.

I don't think the developers understand their own game very well.

[captain1z]

I call shennanigans again. VoN5 has traps that require you to stand in it. There are several other quests I have seen with a fire jet positioned to fire directly at the trap box while the rogue disarms itl.




Dont know if its been said or not as I have not read the entire thread yet.

The blade trap in VON5 you "do not" have to stand in it to disarm. The fact that rogues do stand in it is a choice made by the party leader.

I disabled this trap the other night......... without standing in it.


I will now read the rest of the thread.

[Raithe]

The blade trap in VON5 you "do not" have to stand in it to disarm. The fact that rogues do stand in it is a choice made by the party leader.


Neato. You and several others have identified that changes to DCs were completely unnecessary, because there are safe spots that allow any Joe Shmoe with an 8 reflex to reliably handle everything for which a rogue might have been wanted.

Man this is a great game. :rolleyes:

[captain1z]

Neato. You and several others have identified that changes to DCs were completely unnecessary, because there are safe spots that allow any Joe Shmoe with an 8 reflex to reliably handle everything for which a rogue might have been wanted.

Man this is a great game. :rolleyes:

Its not as negeative as you may think.

There is no "trick" to it. Raids were designed with 2 full party members in mind.

Leaders always make sure they have at least 2 clerics dont they? Put the same thought into getting a rogue.

What we did was:

Spot the 1st trap box before crossing the electric barrier ...... the electric barriers can be time, for sure, we all know this.

rogue #1 goes left and disables the 1st trap box which deactivates the 1st section of traps on the right side
Rogue #2 has a clear run up to the next box which deactivates the next section of traps on the left

keep alternating left box right box and you will clear both sides faster and without having to run thru the blades "at all"

2 rogues.

when you short man a quest you accept certain difficulties.

Same goes when you run with less fighters or fewer cleric, fewer caster.... and apparently fewer rogues.


welcome to the club of several others ...... it wasnt that big a secret really.

[Ranmaru2]

You know, as someone who has not only RUN The Pit at least 200x but has soloed it most of those times, inviting others into my group only for the muck doom chest, I kind of resent being talked down to like I am a noob who doesn't understand there are safe spots and such.

My point was exactly as I stated it.

"If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share."

This means, if you know of a way to run either of those two without getting hit AT LEAST ONCE, please...feel free to share."

And UNLESS you have run either of those two quests on elite SINCE THE CHANGES, please do not comment on the "limited damage" they produce on elite. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I mentioned damage nowhere in there and have run the Crucible on Elite since the change and noticed no different in the swim or otherwise. I haven't had the drive to level a lowbie to run the pit again because I fall asleep redoing all those low level quests again, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you wait 2.5 seconds after the force blast goes off, you can walk through the animation that's sitting there without getting hit.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

And as for the person earlier. There's a safe spot by every one of those pillars in The Pit in the electric room. As someone who has run the Muck Doom chest at least 200x, I definitely know what I'm talking about. No luck involved. Here I'll give you even more of a spoiler for it. You know those blue dots on the pillars? The lightning shoots straight across to those, and only an occasional place in there shoots to the switch directly (only about 4 places that do).

I don't suppose its occured to you that everyone hasn't run the quest 200 times? All quests should be completable by the average player since the "elite" favor is required based on game design.

[redoubt]

Please forgive a bit of whine in this comment, but I believe it helps show why this type of change is bad at this stage of the game.

Use my multi as a example:

2rogue/13 ranger
She has 34 dex and I took the feats: nimble fingers and Skill Focus:Disable Device. I also have numerous AP tied up in search, spot and even 1 in disable (max avail at my level of rogue.)

Prior to this mod, my character to work most traps with little fear of dying. Traps like the ones in temple of Vol on elite would hit her, but she did not fail often enough to die to them. I'd have to step back and heal, then try again. That seems reasonable to me.

What is a character like mine supposed to do in the light of the new DCs?
1. Take trap sense enhancements? I'll take the 1 I can. But even if I push to several rogue levels, it will not be enough in the new system.

2. Reroll? My least favorite answer ever. Especially on this character. My first character was an elf and this is my drow version of her. I've played this character for 2 years now and have many bound items. True, it is my choice to not reroll, but if I cannot fulfill my position as a stand in rogue, I will be forced to shelve this character. Honestly, I've grown tired of making new characters. I just want to play my existing 2 or 3 mains and have fun with my friends (and still be able to complete quests.)

3. Quit. After two years, I have developed an attachment to a few of my characters. Losing them removes my need for this MMO. Not that I want to quit, but dang it, what the heck is with this kind of change???

I wouldn't mind a raise in the DC a point or two to reward those who take the trap sense enchancements, but what is in the game now is crazy.

Thanks for listening to my rant. :eek:

[captain1z]

I don't suppose its occured to you that everyone hasn't run the quest 200 times? All quests should be completable by the average player since the "elite" favor is required based on game design.

completeable...................... by the average player.....................after lots of practice...............trial and error.

sure I'd agree with you.

But just because you need it for favor, and you think you should be entitled to beat it............. no.


doesnt really matter much cause I hate the pit.... even on normal and I swear never to return to it.

[dns801]

ummm... dont know what ppl are saying about having to stand in the trap to disable it... if you do that then quite simply put... you dont know how to disable it.. no not a single trap in von 5 you have to stand in for... the only one ive seen that looks like you have to stand in it for is in proof in poison i think.. where the blades are constantly spinning and it is in center of the room but even there if you know what you are doing u can disable it w/o standing in it... simply put...you gotta learn how to disable or die in the traps... your choice :D

[captain1z]

Please forgive a bit of whine in this comment, but I believe it helps show why this type of change is bad at this stage of the game.

Use my multi as a example:

2rogue/13 ranger
She has 34 dex and I took the feats: nimble fingers and Skill Focus:Disable Device. I also have numerous AP tied up in search, spot and even 1 in disable (max avail at my level of rogue.)

Prior to this mod, my character to work most traps with little fear of dying. Traps like the ones in temple of Vol on elite would hit her, but she did not fail often enough to die to them. I'd have to step back and heal, then try again. That seems reasonable to me.

What is a character like mine supposed to do in the light of the new DCs?
1. Take trap sense enhancements? I'll take the 1 I can. But even if I push to several rogue levels, it will not be enough in the new system.

2. Reroll? My least favorite answer ever. Especially on this character. My first character was an elf and this is my drow version of her. I've played this character for 2 years now and have many bound items. True, it is my choice to not reroll, but if I cannot fulfill my position as a stand in rogue, I will be forced to shelve this character. Honestly, I've grown tired of making new characters. I just want to play my existing 2 or 3 mains and have fun with my friends (and still be able to complete quests.)

3. Quit. After two years, I have developed an attachment to a few of my characters. Losing them removes my need for this MMO. Not that I want to quit, but dang it, what the heck is with this kind of change???

I wouldn't mind a raise in the DC a point or two to reward those who take the trap sense enchancements, but what is in the game now is crazy.

Thanks for listening to my rant. :eek:


/shrug - re-roll thats what I did. rebuild with the new trap system in mind. Hope you havent bound too many items.

[Vormaerin]

The difference between your character and a pure rogue is 3pts of trap saves and improved evasion for the rogue vs 50 or 60hp extra? (The ranger13/rogue2 has +11 ref save, whereas a rogue 15 has +9. But the rogue has +5 more trapsense base.). Need to know some numbers to give actual advice, like what your DD and reflex save currently is. But at a guess, I'd probably start by respeccing Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus: DD. Get Resilience and Lightning Reflexes, perhaps? Another level of ranger would give +1 more ref save, but another level of rogue would give +1 trapsense (and open up the first level of improved trapsense enhancement, IIRC).

[Hakushi]

In Chains of Flames, there's 3 traps you have no other choices but to walk through the trap to get to the box, the fire trap, the spinning blades trap, and another blades trap. In all these traps, I failed saves, and on the first 2, Improved Evasion saved my life. Something is wrong there. I agree the damage part is fine, even if the damage is huge, it fine in my opinion, but the save DC is insanely stupidly high, and does not scale properly with quest difficulty.

[Emili]

ummm... dont know what ppl are saying about having to stand in the trap to disable it... if you do that then quite simply put... you dont know how to disable it.. no not a single trap in von 5 you have to stand in for... the only one ive seen that looks like you have to stand in it for is in proof in poison i think.. where the blades are constantly spinning and it is in center of the room but even there if you know what you are doing u can disable it w/o standing in it... simply put...you gotta learn how to disable or die in the traps... your choice :D

That's correct there are none you have to stand and get hit in to disable... you must get across them to the box however and I believe that is what people are complaining about. The Von 5 spinners/electric in the north hall for example. You start on the left side and move back and forth from the left to the right. There is a safe spot on the starting point on the left side which you must be positioned in correctly... to get there you need to time and jump the trap - people who are not skilled video gamers of course will have some trouble (DDO however is not that much of a mario type thing in comparison to a real twitch base game)... however people who have latency problems between client and the servers are at an extreme disadvantage as a latency of 60ms leaves little room for control, any higher then that and it's really not the players motor skills being tested at all but just sure luck. One aspect of the game though is that on elite they DC's can be so high that reflex save no longer comes into play ie.) the lightning/spinners of the north hall again... the save DC is way above 50 on elite thus it does not matter most are going to fail the save anyway so it really only comes down to twitch skills and knowing where the safe spot is at that point... so to some it's really no longer DnD in that sense.


In Chains of Flames, there's 3 traps you have no other choices but to walk through the trap to get to the box, the fire trap, the spinning blades trap, and another blades trap. In all these traps, I failed saves, and on the first 2, Improved Evasion saved my life. Something is wrong there. I agree the damage part is fine, even if the damage is huge, it fine in my opinion, but the save DC is insanely stupidly high, and does not scale properly with quest difficulty.

Just ran it for a guildies favor last week... disabled no traps. For the fire traps I was on my barb... the rogue got toasted so I ran buffed up and hopped on thru to to the other side (we res'd the rogue). It took about 300hp off my 440 to make it there though. The room with the spinners ... we jump them a hard left with timing... told the rogue forget about the box was not worth the time or aggrivation to play around with. The blades in the last trapped room you can hug the right corner to get around. The other two rooms the side bladed stairs you run thru the middle, and the spiked fire on side room is just timing.

[redoubt]

/shrug - re-roll thats what I did. rebuild with the new trap system in mind. Hope you havent bound too many items.

+3 str tome
+2 con tome
+2 int tome
+2 dex tome
belt of brute strength (titan)
battle coin (titan)
jerky (queen)
vented bracers (reaver)
head of good fortune (reaver)
treason (reaver)
dragon scale robe
2000+ favor and several bound quest rewards that I actually still use. (Might even be one or two other raid items that I'm just not thinking of right now.)

Sure I could reroll to adapt to a change that was made after I had all of this stuff, but why should I have to? I built my character to be a trapsmith. My DD, OL, Search and Spot are all outstanding. My character meets or exceeds all the numbers in the "is my xxx high enough" rogue thread, except the cabal elite. This change has (and is, with the change to the trap sense enhancement) made it so only a pure rogue can have enough reflex save to work through traps that you don't have memorized. I built a scout/trapsmith that worked to great effect... until now. I would not have built this character the way I did if this was in the game from the start.

Now, I've seen lots of posts about learning where to stand. This I will check out and see for myself. I just hope that these "safe spots" are reasonable. (Though it still means you can't cover stuff you don't have memorized, which I think is wrong.) :(

[redoubt]

That's correct there are none you have to stand and get hit in to disable... you must get across them to the box however and I believe that is what people are complaining about. The Von 5 spinners/electric in the north hall for example. You start on the left side and move back and forth from the left to the right. There is a safe spot on the starting point on the left side which you must be positioned in correctly... to get there you need to time and jump the trap - people who are not skilled video gamers of course will have some trouble (DDO however is not that much of a mario type thing in comparison to a real twitch base game)... however people who have latency problems between client and the servers are at an extreme disadvantage as a latency of 60ms leaves little room for control, any higher then that and it's really not the players motor skills being tested at all but just sure luck. One aspect of the game though is that on elite they DC's can be so high that reflex save no longer comes into play ie.) the lightning/spinners of the north hall again... the save DC is way above 50 on elite thus it does not matter most are going to fail the save anyway so it really only comes down to twitch skills and knowing where the safe spot is at that point... so to some it's really no longer DnD in that sense.

Well said. A year ago my latency was under 60 all the time. Each mod, it has somehow gone up just a little. I'm sitting around 80-90ms most of the time now. Sadly, that is faster than half the people in my guild.

Just ran it for a guildies favor last week... disabled no traps. For the fire traps I was on my barb... the rogue got toasted so I ran buffed up and hopped on thru to to the other side (we res'd the rogue). It took about 300hp off my 440 to make it there though. The room with the spinners ... we jump them a hard left with timing... told the rogue forget about the box was not worth the time or aggrivation to play around with. The blades in the last trapped room you can hug the right corner to get around. The other two rooms the side bladed stairs you run thru the middle, and the spiked fire on side room is just timing.

Sounds like we are still at the "don't wait to do the trap, its not worth it" stage. How is it that the increased DCs are helping anything?

[llevenbaxx]

I can virtually guarantee that between this and the search/spot DCs problem, they have lost more customers (existing and new) over trapsmithing than over any other controversial change, bug, or downtime.

Preparing the playerbase beforehand, fully, and discussing the game behaviors that would arise from the changes would have made things better. I think, sadly, that many of these changes are petty acts of defiance, or at the very least viewed as exploit fixes.

I don't think the developers understand their own game very well.

QFT on all points, especially the last. Seems like they are only seeing the class' from a numbers standpoint...things to be min/maxed...or something like that. Hard to put it into words.

[Westerner]

Sure I could reroll to adapt to a change that was made after I had all of this stuff, but why should I have to? I built my character to be a trapsmith. My DD, OL, Search and Spot are all outstanding...
This change has (and is, with the change to the trap sense enhancement) made it so only a pure rogue can have enough reflex save to work through traps that you don't have memorized. I built a scout/trapsmith that worked to great effect... until now. I would not have built this character the way I did if this was in the game from the start.
I also have a ranger/rogue and feel as you do. I think elite trap DC's are too high, and I wish the devs would rethink it.

They're being a mean DM. I take their silence on this topic to mean the changes may be here to stay. I think this hits pure rogues even harder, b/c they have even more invested in the old benchmark. So if the DEVs feel this is best for the game long term, I think they should award some feat tokens to rogues to help buffer the shock.

On the plus side, all rogues should be getting more invites out of the higher trap damage. I know I'm specifically looking for rogues on any elite quest with hard-to-avoid traps.

In future I see 3 kinds of rogues if current trends continue:
1) Multiclassed Disablers
2) Pure Rogue Reflex/Evader
3) Pure Rogue DPS/Backstabber

[Snoggy]

That was part of the problem I've had with the Proof is in the Poison. When level capped characters have issues running a level 6 quest there should be some thought there. As far as I know, you can't disable the acid in Proof is in the Poison. Maybe resists and protections help, but there is only the one shrine, so be prepared to wait 30 mins or more for it to reset. Yay.

I just finished Proof is in the Poison on elite with a level appropriate group. We were super cautious. And a couple of us had some experience with the quest. And it was still rather disturbingly brutal. The acid in there just plain sucks. I don't want to do that quest again on any toon for a long, long time. We had resists. We had protection. The acid still sucks.

So I can totally understand what you're talking about. On the other hand, I guess I do feel like I accomplished something by getting through it with a level appropriate group. But on the third hand, how good a quest is it, if it makes me want to never run it again?

I'm really on the fence with that quest. There are parts of it I like. There are parts of it I just wish never ever get implemented into something in DDO again. I've seen it wipe out my group on Normal with ease. But then again, I've gotten through it on elite at the right level it was designed for. So I don't know. Gah. It's one of those quests that just gives me headaches.

[GlassCannon]

I just finished Proof is in the Poison on elite with a level appropriate group. We were super cautious. And a couple of us had some experience with the quest. And it was still rather disturbingly brutal. The acid in there just plain sucks. I don't want to do that quest again on any toon for a long, long time. We had resists. We had protection. The acid still sucks.

So I can totally understand what you're talking about. On the other hand, I guess I do feel like I accomplished something by getting through it with a level appropriate group. But on the third hand, how good a quest is it, if it makes me want to never run it again?

I'm really on the fence with that quest. There are parts of it I like. There are parts of it I just wish never ever get implemented into something in DDO again. I've seen it wipe out my group on Normal with ease. But then again, I've gotten through it on elite at the right level it was designed for. So I don't know. Gah. It's one of those quests that just gives me headaches.


A level appropriate group is level 8.

That quest is mislabeled.

[krud]

The difference between your character and a pure rogue is 3pts of trap saves and improved evasion for the rogue vs 50 or 60hp extra? (The ranger13/rogue2 has +11 ref save, whereas a rogue 15 has +9. But the rogue has +5 more trapsense base.). Need to know some numbers to give actual advice, like what your DD and reflex save currently is. But at a guess, I'd probably start by respeccing Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus: DD. Get Resilience and Lightning Reflexes, perhaps? Another level of ranger would give +1 more ref save, but another level of rogue would give +1 trapsense (and open up the first level of improved trapsense enhancement, IIRC).

Good suggestions. I'd add:
This is a good example of how a splash rogue needs feats to make up the difference with a pure rogue. This is pretty much true of any splash class which wants to function as well as the pure class. With all the skills pts you have i'm guessing you have max ranks in your rogue skills. both nimble fingers and SF: DD may not be necessary. Your two skill feats may be better used towards reflex save feats; resilience and/or lightning reflexes. All that combined with GH, haste and a parrying weapon should get you to at least +40. That should put you slightly ahead of an average, similarly buffed, lvl15 rogue (with improved uncanny dodge factored in the rogue comes out 2 to 4 points ahead). If that's still not enough then I'd agree they made the DCs too high and you have a legitimate complaint.

Howver if the new +2/tier improved trap sense enhancements are implemented not even feats will make up the difference. Not good imo

[Snoggy]

I'm confused.


I disabled this trap the other night......... without standing in it.

But then it turns out ...


Its not as negeative as you may think.

There is no "trick" to it. Raids were designed with 2 full party members in mind.

Leaders always make sure they have at least 2 clerics dont they? Put the same thought into getting a rogue.

What we did was:

Spot the 1st trap box before crossing the electric barrier ...... the electric barriers can be time, for sure, we all know this.

rogue #1 goes left and disables the 1st trap box which deactivates the 1st section of traps on the right side
Rogue #2 has a clear run up to the next box which deactivates the next section of traps on the left

keep alternating left box right box and you will clear both sides faster and without having to run thru the blades "at all"

2 rogues.

?

[Snoggy]

A level appropriate group is level 8.

That quest is mislabeled.

We did it with one level 4, a couple 5s and a couple 6s.

Like I said, we finished. But it was brutal.

[krud]

Now, I've seen lots of posts about learning where to stand. This I will check out and see for myself. I just hope that these "safe spots" are reasonable. (Though it still means you can't cover stuff you don't have memorized, which I think is wrong.) :(

you do have a point. no other class requires you to have any prior knowledge in order to function to their full capacity on elite.

[Aspenor]

you do have a point. no other class requires you to have any prior knowledge in order to function to their full capacity on elite.

Not true, wizards, clerics, rangers, and paladins all benefit from prior knowledge as well. Spell selection, ftw.

[unionyes]

Please forgive a bit of whine in this comment, but I believe it helps show why this type of change is bad at this stage of the game.

Use my multi as a example:

2rogue/13 ranger
She has 34 dex and I took the feats: nimble fingers and Skill Focus:Disable Device. I also have numerous AP tied up in search, spot and even 1 in disable (max avail at my level of rogue.)

Prior to this mod, my character to work most traps with little fear of dying. Traps like the ones in temple of Vol on elite would hit her, but she did not fail often enough to die to them. I'd have to step back and heal, then try again. That seems reasonable to me.

What is a character like mine supposed to do in the light of the new DCs?
1. Take trap sense enhancements? I'll take the 1 I can. But even if I push to several rogue levels, it will not be enough in the new system.

2. Reroll? My least favorite answer ever. Especially on this character. My first character was an elf and this is my drow version of her. I've played this character for 2 years now and have many bound items. True, it is my choice to not reroll, but if I cannot fulfill my position as a stand in rogue, I will be forced to shelve this character. Honestly, I've grown tired of making new characters. I just want to play my existing 2 or 3 mains and have fun with my friends (and still be able to complete quests.)

3. Quit. After two years, I have developed an attachment to a few of my characters. Losing them removes my need for this MMO. Not that I want to quit, but dang it, what the heck is with this kind of change???

I wouldn't mind a raise in the DC a point or two to reward those who take the trap sense enchancements, but what is in the game now is crazy.

Thanks for listening to my rant. :eek:

I play fairly casually, don't spend a lot of time working out the numbers, usually just ask for advice.

On my rogue (pure, level 11 currently), and all I noticed after the mod is that I now have to use my equipment. I used to run around with my trusty trapblast goggles on all the time, but now I wear my spot goggles, until my spot goes off, then my search goggles go on, then trapblast, etc. Still haven't failed a disable since level 3 in STK on elite, when I blew the acid trap box (and found the second box on the other side, in range of the mobs on the ledges).

It is sort of logical that a 2 rogue, even with 13 levels of ranger thrown in there, would be less of a trapsmith than an 11 rogue. Of course that would assume that equipment and stats are roughly equal. Your dex is higher than mine by far, think I am at 26 right now, but also have 21 intel which helps.

Of course it sucks when you could do something, and then you can't any more. Traps used to be a lot less of a bother than they are now, and 2 levels of rogue were enough to take most of them down, but that seems to have changed.

Imagine this scenario. I keep leveling up my rogue to 14, and then take last two levels of fighter, so I have ftr2/rogue14. I then start a thread asking the devs to change the CR's on the end bosses, because I can't take them out in one on one toe to toe trading swings melee, in spite of my two levels of fighter. I would imagine that people would tell me that I am just plain crazy to think that taking two levels of fighter would be enough to take out an end boss toe to toe. Those would probably be the same people who think that it is a huge injustice that they can't take out heavy traps in some quests with 2 rogue levels.

Also, new challenges are part of the game. That's why we have lots of character slots, I guess. If I was you, I would keep the character because I bet he is a lot of fun to play (and still a great build in spite of the trap changes), and make a new one too. If you don't have any empty slots, then check out a different server.

[krud]

Not true, wizards, clerics, rangers, and paladins all benefit from prior knowledge as well. Spell selection, ftw.

Benefit yes, but not required. A well prepared mage has myriad of spells to choose from. Clerics can always heal/buff. If you are going into the unknown spells can be adjusted to give you a wide variety of options before going in. Everyone but the sorc can change spell selection at the first shrine. If your PK and FoD, or firewall/scorching ray suddenly don't work and you don't know what to do, then maybe you should reconsider elite settings. Good spell selection, good strategy, and even good builds can overcome a lack of knowledge. However, if a rogue doesn't know the sweet spots, then even a well prepared one will have have no recourse. If all that is required is prior knowledge to succeed, even for the gimp rogue, then the super high DCs (if indeed they are super high) are not really necessary, and can be dialed down a little so that a well prepared rogue has a good chance to overcome a lack of knowledge.

[EinarMal]

Imagine this scenario. I keep leveling up my rogue to 14, and then take last two levels of fighter, so I have ftr2/rogue14. I then start a thread asking the devs to change the CR's on the end bosses, because I can't take them out in one on one toe to toe trading swings melee, in spite of my two levels of fighter. I would imagine that people would tell me that I am just plain crazy to think that taking two levels of fighter would be enough to take out an end boss toe to toe. Those would probably be the same people who think that it is a huge injustice that they can't take out heavy traps in some quests with 2 rogue levels.



Here is the thing you can already do this just fine, no complaining needed. Build a Dwarf Rogue 14/Fighter 2, you will have close to 400 hit points with toughness, decent to very good AC, and evasion. You can also pick up stunning blow/trip and get all the sneak attacks you want with full subtle backstabbing.

See that is why this game is fun you CAN build a Rogue tank, but they are trying to remove a Tank that wants to be somewhat of a Rogue.

People confuse 3.5 Rogues with squishy dex based elf/halfling trapsmith builds. There are lots of ways to play the class it is very versatile. My Rogue is not pure, Dwarf Rogue 9/Fighter 1/Ranger 6. Eventually I will end up with Rogue 13/Fighter 1/Ranger 6. The new trap DC's are troublesome for my build as it is strength based (although with decent dex for TWF). On the other hand I have 400 hit points at level 16, and a DC 32 stunning blow.

I would rather make a thug rogue and not disable traps at all, then change the concept of my build by taking every reflex save feat imaginable. I will just buff up and run through them with the Barbarian ;)

The problem I have with it is that at level 16, with 9 levels of Rogue and a solid 28 dex or so, I am still looking at *only* a reflex save in the low 40's which I can't imagine being enough at that level with the current setup. That is with improved uncanny dodge and trap sense enhancements. That seems extreme to me personally.

[Raithe]

I then start a thread asking the devs to change the CR's on the end bosses, because I can't take them out in one on one toe to toe trading swings melee, in spite of my two levels of fighter.

Wow this is hilarious.

First of all, the DCs were not being complained about before Mod 6. The development decision to change them upwards in Mod 6 is what is being challenged. I personally think they should have been nudged down a little, if you want to appeal to new subscribers.

Second, and most importantly, what end bosses are you talking about? Cause if its something like a mage or a fire elemental, I would tell the fighter to back the heck away and let the rogue(s) take him on. There are no "tanks" in this game, and everyone needs to get that in their head or life in DDO is going to be more miserable than the devs are already making it.

[Jaywade]

some sort of response for some dev would be nice wouldn't it...... again I do think the reflex dc's needed to be adjusted , again I think they just took them too far....you would think they wouold know this game better wouldn't you

[krud]

Here is the thing you can already do this just fine, no complaining needed. Build a Dwarf Rogue 14/Fighter 2, you will have close to 400 hit points with toughness, decent to very good AC, and evasion. You can also pick up stunning blow/trip and get all the sneak attacks you want with full subtle backstabbing.
....
The problem I have with it is that at level 16, with 9 levels of Rogue and a solid 28 dex or so, I am still looking at *only* a reflex save in the low 40's which I can't imagine being enough at that level with the current setup. That is with improved uncanny dodge and trap sense enhancements. That seems extreme to me personally.

In order to make those 2 ftr levels combat worthy in elite quests will require a few fighter type feats as well as combat type enhancements. just taking 2 ftr without putting feats and enhancements toward it isn't going to make an elite fighter. Same goes for the splash rogue. In order to function well running thru and disabling elite traps he may need some feats and enhancements dedicated to it. However, if you make it so even the trap rogue needs feats to succeed, then there is no way a MCrogue or STRrogue will be able to cut it. If the trap-rogue is having trouble, then it's gone a bit too far. You are effectively removing some of the build options that make DDO interesting.

[Shade]

In Chains of Flames, there's 3 traps you have no other choices but to walk through the trap to get to the box, the fire trap, the spinning blades trap, and another blades trap. In all these traps, I failed saves, and on the first 2, Improved Evasion saved my life. Something is wrong there. I agree the damage part is fine, even if the damage is huge, it fine in my opinion, but the save DC is insanely stupidly high, and does not scale properly with quest difficulty.

Also all doable without getting hit.

First fire one - Just need timing. The flame jets go off for a second allowing you to run by unscratched. Box is only past the first of the 3 jets so its pretty easy iirc.

The spinning blades trap - you can actually just run right thru this with haste and you will apear to hit it, but will not take damage, the trap takes a second to really activate. Or alternatively you can simply jump over them, its not very difficult.

Other blade traps - slicing blades - all extremely easy to disable without going near the trap. Hallway one, box is before the trap, so no problem. Or even if you do not have a rogue - you can simple run thru the center and it will miss you.
2nd one just thru a door - easily timed, you can just casually walk thru and it will miss you unhasted if your the first one to go thru - biggest mistake most players make with this one is trying to jump over it, you cant, you actually just run over it.

Any other quests ya need tips on?

[krud]

Also all doable without getting hit.
....
Any other quests ya need tips on?

Well shoot, there you have it! problem solved, no further discussion is needed. Everyone in the DDO community just come to this here thread for all your trapsmithing needs. :rolleyes:

and if you don't read these forums or have access to a friendly neighborhood leet power gamer, who will hold your hand thru every elite quest, you're screwed. Should a well built and well equipped rogue have to expect to have someone knowledgeable about every trap in game accompany him anytime he wants to attempt an elite trap?

[unionyes]

In order to make those 2 ftr levels combat worthy in elite quests will require a few fighter type feats as well as combat type enhancements. just taking 2 ftr without putting feats and enhancements toward it isn't going to make an elite fighter. Same goes for the splash rogue. In order to function well running thru and disabling elite traps he may need some feats and enhancements dedicated to it. The option is always there, but when someone who decides to focus on trapsmithing in a class that's supposed to be good at it is having trouble, then those options for the MC won't cut it. If even the trap-rogue is having trouble, then it's gone a bit too far.

Exactly. My pure rogue seems to be doing ok. Have noticed that I have failed the odd save lately, but it just hurt, it didn't kill and I currently am sitting at a mere 124 hp, albeit with all the evasion a level 11 rogue can have.

It seems to me that the main issue is that people used to be able to get traps with a couple of rogue levels and they can't anymore. Therefore, the traps are now too hard. I guess the other reason would have to be the rogue abilities aren't high enough? Don't want to go there at all.

Traps should be serious, instead of what they were before the mod, more in the line of a practical joke than a trap. I almost kept expecting to run into a bucket of water propped up over a partially open doorway with a trap box located nearby, thats how lame they were. Of course there were a few exceptions, but for the most part a trap was something that you only worried about if it was protecting a shrine or somewhere you may be heading to when you were out of manna and the red bar was looking pretty small.

As for keeping or getting more players, making the game really easy won't cut it. I for one will not hang around and play a game that is no challenge at all. Most people probably feel the same way. Don't want it to be impossible, but it should be tough, especially by mid level on hard or elite.

And for those who say that the traps are way too hard, I will say this again. My rogue 11 has run quests as high as level 16 (counting the hard/elite quest level increases) and hasn't blown a trap box since STK when I was level 3. I can always find the box, my spot always goes off (if I am wearing my spot goggles), and yes they do hurt some if I just try and run through them and fail a save, but that happens rarely and I can't say I have encountered the issues some have reported here, that of failing 3 or 4 saves in a row and dying.

I should also point out that I am NOT some sort of uber rogue. I asked for and got tons of advice on the rogue forum for stats and equipment, which was invaluable. I am not totally gimped for anything but traps either, can scrap pretty effectively with some aggro management, can UMD, all that stuff. I consider my build pretty much a run of the mill pure rogue, and the new mod has left me feeling challenged, but not to the point where I can't do it.

I think that the difference may be that I happen to be a pure rogue. I have NOTHING against multi classes, I don't have one because I feel that I should cap out a pure before I multi just so I have good knowledge of what they can and can't do.

But please don't say the traps are too hard. They aren't. Instead, say the traps are too hard for multiclass rogues. My pure rogue is doing fine.

[Raithe]

My pure rogue is doing fine.

Which is superb motivation to make long speeches about how no one else has any right to complain?

Let's see... the arsenic levels in my water are not even unhealthy. Anyone who finds their arsenic levels high should just shutup and let me be!



Na, doesn't work for me.

EDIT: BTW, certain builds of paladin/rogues will make your rogue's reflex save against traps look extremely small in comparison. This isn't a multi versus pure debate.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I play fairly casually, don't spend a lot of time working out the numbers, usually just ask for advice.

On my rogue (pure, level 11 currently), and all I noticed after the mod is that I now have to use my equipment. I used to run around with my trusty trapblast goggles on all the time, but now I wear my spot goggles, until my spot goes off, then my search goggles go on, then trapblast, etc. Still haven't failed a disable since level 3 in STK on elite, when I blew the acid trap box (and found the second box on the other side, in range of the mobs on the ledges).

It is sort of logical that a 2 rogue, even with 13 levels of ranger thrown in there, would be less of a trapsmith than an 11 rogue. Of course that would assume that equipment and stats are roughly equal. Your dex is higher than mine by far, think I am at 26 right now, but also have 21 intel which helps.

Of course it sucks when you could do something, and then you can't any more. Traps used to be a lot less of a bother than they are now, and 2 levels of rogue were enough to take most of them down, but that seems to have changed.

Imagine this scenario. I keep leveling up my rogue to 14, and then take last two levels of fighter, so I have ftr2/rogue14. I then start a thread asking the devs to change the CR's on the end bosses, because I can't take them out in one on one toe to toe trading swings melee, in spite of my two levels of fighter. I would imagine that people would tell me that I am just plain crazy to think that taking two levels of fighter would be enough to take out an end boss toe to toe. Those would probably be the same people who think that it is a huge injustice that they can't take out heavy traps in some quests with 2 rogue levels.

Also, new challenges are part of the game. That's why we have lots of character slots, I guess. If I was you, I would keep the character because I bet he is a lot of fun to play (and still a great build in spite of the trap changes), and make a new one too. If you don't have any empty slots, then check out a different server.

The Spot/Search/Disable DCs aren't really relevant to this problem. It's all about the absurd Reflex saves you need to avoid getting butchered by a trap on elite, and the insane damage they do. Multiclass rogues can still find and disable traps just fine. The problem lies with the fact that only a super tricked-out rogue will be able to get whacked by a trap without taking incredible damage.

Here's a little bit of information for you, folks -- bards, rangers, and monks all have good Reflex save progressions. Paladins have good Reflex saves by virtue of high charisma. This means that they should be almost as good as a rogue at making saves versus level appropriate traps (the only difference being the rogue's Trap Sense); if these characters are easily getting butchered, something is wrong.

Also, your example isn't a good one. Traps are just one small part of a rogue. Taking 2 levels of rogue to get trapsmithing capability is a lot like taking two levels of fighter to get a couple of feats or weapon proficiencies -- a small part of the fighter class. It's nothing like taking two levels of fighter and expecting to be a full tank.

[Turial]

Well shoot, there you have it! problem solved, no further discussion is needed. Everyone in the DDO community just come to this here thread for all your trapsmithing needs. :rolleyes:

and if you don't read these forums or have access to a friendly neighborhood leet power gamer, who will hold your hand thru every elite quest, you're screwed. Should a well built and well equipped rogue have to expect to have someone knowledgeable about every trap in game accompany him anytime he wants to attempt an elite trap?

This is a hard one. Turbine may assume that if your in a quest on elite you have done it atleast 2 times before. In those 2 runs you may well have gotten the information that would let you avoid some of the traps. Going in green on elite is a "danger" to everyone that hasnt done the quest before. Now did turbine make a mistake if that was their thought process? Most likely. But there is a bit of knowledge that needs to be combined with the skill base of the character for elite to make it a difficult thing for rogues of all abilities.

DC's are too high at the moment but the formula I outlined above (DDO skill + knowledge of the quest = ability to search, disable, and bypass elite traps) should be followed in some manner for the hard / elite settings.

In the end it could be worse the DC's for traps could be variable within a range.

[unionyes]

Which is superb motivation to make long speeches about how no one else has any right to complain?

Let's see... the arsenic levels in my water are not even unhealthy. Anyone who finds their arsenic levels high should just shutup and let me be!



Na, doesn't work for me.

EDIT: BTW, certain builds of paladin/rogues will make your rogue's reflex save against traps look extremely small in comparison. This isn't a multi verus pure debate.

More like anyone who has arsenic levels that are really high should do something about it, rather than keep drinking the water and go around saying it shouldn't be like this. Maybe you could find a different water source. Maybe you could get a filter? I should point out that I drink the same 'water' as you. Nice logic, though it doesn't work for me.

My rogue (non Uber, if you will recall) has no insurmountable problems with the newly changed traps. I will happily disable them for you, if you would be so kind as to wait a second while I search it out, get to the box, and disable it. If you wish to charge through it, then you take your chances I guess. If you figure you can make it through then have at er. If you can't, then be patient and I will get it down for ya.

There may be more than one kind of beef about the traps, here is my two cents on what I see the three main beefs on this thread.

1. If you are a rogue and you can't get them down (by this I mean spot, search, make it to the box wherever it may be, and disable it), then you may have a problem. I can do it, with my limited ability and generic rogue build. It is harder now than before the mod, but it is doable. It is definitely not so hard now that I want the devs to 'fix' it. I kinda like the challenge.

2. If you are a non rogue and you can't run through it, then get yourself a rogue for your party. They are quite helpful. We have also been known to open locks and kill stuff too, or even res the cleric in a pinch. Walking dogs and washing windows is negotiable :)

3. If you are a multi class build and can't get the trap down, then either give up trapsmithing or invest some feats/points/levels into it so you can get it done. If it is the saves, then do what you gotta do to boost your saves, or increase your hp to where you can take a hit or two from the trap. Or wait with everyone else who chose not to run through the trap until it gets disabled.

Devs, if you are reading this, the traps are FINE. Don't change the DC's one bit please. I love it.

[Jaywade]

My rogue (non Uber, if you will recall) has no insurmountable problems with the newly changed traps. I will happily disable them for you, if you would be so kind as to wait a second while I search it out, get to the box, and disable it. If you wish to charge through it, then you take your chances I guess. If you figure you can make it through then have at er. If you can't, then be patient and I will get it down for ya.
the put of this thread isn;t search and spot and disable...it's the reflex save to beat the trap
There may be more than one kind of beef about the traps, here is my two cents on what I see the three main beefs on this thread.

1. If you are a rogue and you can't get them down (by this I mean spot, search, make it to the box wherever it may be, and disable it), then you may have a problem. I can do it, with my limited ability and generic rogue build. It is harder now than before the mod, but it is doable. It is definitely not so hard now that I want the devs to 'fix' it. I kinda like the challenge.
it's funny that you said it's harder casue they didn;t change the diable dc to any traps in fact they made one easier to find.... so if you are finding it harder than before I don't understand how or what game you are playing but it's not the same one we are

2. If you are a non rogue and you can't run through it, then get yourself a rogue for your party. They are quite helpful. We have also been known to open locks and kill stuff too, or even res the cleric in a pinch. Walking dogs and washing windows is negotiable :)well rangers have evasion too and many are asking themself's why right now....where we once could dance in the traps(btw I too thought this needed to be changed) now if you come near them you get wacked for in some cases 3x the damge...also the whole neat thing about this game is you are not tied down to needing fighter pally rogue cleric wizz ranger to complete a mission, I know people that play rogue don't want to hear that but that is a good part of the appeal of this game to many of us

3. If you are a multi class build and can't get the trap down, then either give up trapsmithing or invest some feats/points/levels into it so you can get it done. If it is the saves, then do what you gotta do to boost your saves, or increase your hp to where you can take a hit or two from the trap. Or wait with everyone else who chose not to run through the trap until it gets disabled.
again disableing the trap isn't a big deal. it's the reflex save, now not every trap must you run through to disable but there are a few, and for a lot of people this "breaks" a toon they might of been playing for 2 yrs , who wouldn't be upset by that

Devs, if you are reading this, the traps are FINE. Don't change the DC's one bit please. I love it.

well at least you are happy

you know again no dev response to this at all


don't know if I posted this at all let me talk about my own rogue

malcis
10/3/3 rogue, fighter ranger
34 dex don't know my reflex off hand (I'm at work) but I run around w/ +5 resist item and the head of good fortune and I think I have 3 of the xtra trap save enchancements..... been doing rainbow elite a bunch can disable all the traps (even on a 1 which I though was neat 26 int btw and +14 dd goggles and the bracers from reaver) the last gnoll chest behind that secert door, I've been setting off the acid part just to see what would happened, it hit's me for around 70-90 a tick (full evasion now) and even on a 16 I failed, saved on a 18,19 ,20 haven't rolled a 17 on it yet taking notes at home...now I know it's a lvl 16 quest on elite but needing a roll as high as 17-20 or 18-20 is a bit much, again I have the best gear great stats and even close to max enhancments

running my evasion barb through some lower end stuff (he's lvl 11 w/ a 18-26 reflex depending on buffs and equip setup) he's getting the **** beat out of him in traps....honestly I think the biggest problem is the stuff up to lvl cap, even multi rogues will okay one capped and well equiped but lvling up is crazy and one of those goodblades has a dc of 28 which is insane for a lvl 1 quest...I would agree a change was needed but I think they went too far a modest scale back is needed not to where it was, but lower than what it is

[deadpool090]

The Crucible Horn of Agility. Cannot be disabled.
The Pit force traps. Cannot be disabled.

If you know of a way to run either of those without getting hit...please feel free to share.

The Pit Force traps--- no idea never ran that one

The Crucible Horn of AGILITY have run it on my rogue numerous times and have run and walked through the trap with little or no damage.
my rogue is a skill rogue and not an assassin build, have improved evasion plus a high tumble. The trial is called AGILILTY for a reason.

[Vormaerin]

I think it is a good thing that the traps are brutal enough that everyone playing on elite will start thinking about the sweet spots instead of lazily walking into the trap to disable it. However, the values should not be so high that the character build is irrelevant. High enough that you need to put some noticable effort into it if you want to do it the 'easy' way on elite is fine.

I don't really think rogues learning sweet spots is any more "mario" than other tactical positioning in the game: proper shield blocking in doors/corridors, knowing how to jump cast spells, and so on. Harder to pick up, because there are fewer opportunities for repetition or practicing by oneself.

[captain1z]

I'm confused.



But then it turns out ...



?

Im not sure exactly what you find confusing.... let me know ....but till then I ll explain as best I can.

The 1st part you quoted says you dont have to stand in the von 5 blade trap to disable it

The 2nd part you quoted explains how this is accomplished.

That would be by having 2 rogues in the party............... one is gunna clear the left side traps the other will clear the right side trap.
The 1st trap box on the left clears the 1st section of traps on the right..... meaning when the rogue on the right goes to disable the next box the blades will not pop. After the rogue on the right takes down that box the rogue on the left can go up to the next box on his left and the blades will not pop.

If you continue to alternate "I do one, you do one" pattern you dont have to stand in the blades to disable the boxes.

The lightning traps cannot be disabled but every few seconds the bolt starts at the top of each pillar and comes down in 3 parts then resets......this can be timed and you can walk thru without much risk at all.

I hope that explains it a little better but once you've been there to see it you will get a better idea of what Im saying.

If your still confused let me know whats not clear and I or someone else will explain Im sure.



Just noticed you place in bold "2 full party members" that should read "2 full party's"
the other party you bolded was 2 rogues , which just means we had 2 rogue types in the raid

doesnt have to be 2 full pure classed rogues for that trap..... both in our group were multiclassed

Maybe thats what confused you .... just a mis-type I suppose.

[lostinjapan]

The Crucible Horn of AGILITY have run it on my rogue numerous times and have run and walked through the trap with little or no damage.
my rogue is a skill rogue and not an assassin build, have improved evasion plus a high tumble. The trial is called AGILILTY for a reason.

Since the changes?

I really don't understand why some of you keep coming back and saying things like "I've run this on my rogue numerous times, all you have to do is know where the sweet spots are" or "I've run this on my rogue numerous times and haven't taken damage".

I am not, by any means, saying I am an average player or that I, if I attempted to, could not accomplish the things some of you claim to have done, or even that MY rogue has had any problems.

What I am saying, and have been trying to say, is that while the DCs should have been upped (my L16 sorcerer could stand in lower level elite traps...that was dumb), they were upped too much, especially at lower levels.

1. The "average" player should not have to have run something 200x in order to know how to complete it (The Pit, at level, AFTER the change) without getting hit even once by the traps.
2. The "average" player, should not have to try to run a quest like STK on elite AT LEVEL and be unable to complete it.
3. The traps, on average, should NOT hit for more damage than the creatures in the quest do. My L16 sorcerer recently ran Ruined Halls elite for favor. Running through one of the electrical traps went through 120 points electrical protection + 30 points electrical resist + over 90 HP. One trap. WAY more than any creature in there did to her. Creatures and traps should be more in line with what kind of damage they put out.
4. There are sweet spots for most quests where a rogue does not have to stand in or run through the trap to get to whatever they are trying to get to. This does not mean ALL quests are that way. The STK fire trap MUST be run through to get to the boxes to disable (no, you do not have to stand in the trap to disable it). The Horn of Agility traps in The Crucible MUST be run through to complete the test.

Please stop trying to convince me how uber you think you are because you can do something. I'm not talking about me. I'm definitely not talking about you. I'm talking about the traps, their relative damage output to the rest of the quest, and how it affects the average player.

[Raithe]

(my L16 sorcerer could stand in lower level elite traps...that was dumb)


Your level 16 sorceror would have been taking damage. Making a reflex save in a trap without evasion means you still take half damage. With the current adjusted damage totals, that is going to be significant regardless of DC values.

It's important to the discussion, because many people are acting like the damage traps were doing on elite before was non-existent. In many cases the damage caused by traps was exceeding the simple cost of a resurrection and heal.

And people without evasion were dying on elite, all the time. This just makes the little elite club of those who can run through traps a lot smaller.

[lostinjapan]

Your level 16 sorceror would have been taking damage.

Not with a 30 pt resist up.

[Jaywade]

well I think they were too llow , but they over fixed the problem , if you take a lvl 1 rogue and stick him in a trap he should have a decent chance of living, a lvl 6 in the spinning traps in TR ought to have a chance at not taking damage through those traps.... again I think they over fixed it.....they did this once before

I used to have a human tatics fighter , would trip at will, (this is a mod 2 build btw no 32 pt no tomes) and stuff would stay down...loved to play him the bench mark at the time was TS he could hit the blackguards he could trip the black guards I loved playing him (name was sass blaster for those from xoriat remember he worn a mohawk) well the dev's in mod 3 i think maybe mod 4 changed trip.... I'm not talking about the red named change(you use to be able to trip them) this was before that, now I don't think Sass ever missed a trip (btw that was broken) but after the fix he couldn't trip hardly anything, I ended up rerolling after I unlocked 32 favor and made a dwarf tatics fighter (doucle tatics enchancements) then trip became serviceable again then they made redname immune that's another story, the point is they made a game change that took my fighter and made him useless, so I had to reroll (if I wanted to play a tatics fighter {sidenote please don't start w/ humans and drow and elfs and halfing can be tatics fighters too, dwarf and WF get xtra enhancements to that end and we don;t need to derail the thread})


now if you were playing a wiz/rogue or a ranger/rogue or a evasion pally or fighter or a str based rogue you were use to one play style as it comes to traps (being able to stand still in a trap with no damage unless you rolled a 1, or a 2, which btw was broken IMO) and you have been playing that way and that's how it's been...then mod 6 comes along and you try to waltz through a trap and get smack for 170 damge....your not going to be happy about it, then you do through stk on elite for favor and get destroyed by a lv 6 quest (on elite) and you look at you eveasion lvl 14-16 toon and wonder what happened you are going to be really mad...they over fixed this problem...they tend to do that it seems to me....please dev's do a slight scale back, not all the way to what it was....maybe your fix was broken casue it tend to scale poorly at low and mid lvls ...look in to it

[captain1z]

Well one thing about the trap change thats working in my favor is.................


When u run creatures thru a trap, he only has to pass thru 1-2 times before he dies or 2-3 seconds depending.


Mrs. Adventure is really wracking up the kills these days.

[honkuimushi]

Any other quests ya need tips on?

How about Keeper's Sanctuary and The Enemy Within?

[captain1z]

Well shoot, there you have it! problem solved, no further discussion is needed. Everyone in the DDO community just come to this here thread for all your trapsmithing needs. :rolleyes:

and if you don't read these forums or have access to a friendly neighborhood leet power gamer, who will hold your hand thru every elite quest, you're screwed. Should a well built and well equipped rogue have to expect to have someone knowledgeable about every trap in game accompany him anytime he wants to attempt an elite trap?


gotta give the players more credit than that.

Even if it (the trap) totally owns you the 1st , 2nd, 3rd time, somewhere down the road you will figure out a way other than what you are doing.
Nobody stubbs there toe in the dark because they like it....... it happens cause your trying to find the light switch. After a time you can walk thru the darkness and find that switch no sweat ....... very few people call an electrician to come find the light switch for them.


I see your point tho...... your saying we shouldnt need people to come tell us every detail of a quest so we have a chance of completion.

If I have a hard time with some part of a quest, Ill go in solo and sit in front of the problem and try to figure it out for next time..................

I cant be the only one who does this

[Vormaerin]

How about people start talking about what DC values they think is appropriate instead of just saying "OMG, these ones are too high".

Do you want:

1) Non rogues should be able to make their saves fairly often (20s)

2) Any rogue should be pretty safe without having to think about it during builds (30s)

3) Rogues should be safe as long as they make some effort on their ref saves (40s)

4) Even rogues should have to make a serious effort with feats and APs to not need the sweet spots (50s)

5) Only highly specialized builds don't need the safe spots (60s).


I like things at #3, but it seems that they are currently at #5 though its hard to be sure in the hysteria. The old values were clearly too easy, particularly on the damage. If the current damage levels are maintained and the DCs are set around the 3rd concept (exact numbers to be determined, but mid to high 40s seems reasonable to me at the cap), then there is a good incentive for players to start learning the sweet spots and practicing them (because of the high damage) but you aren't guaranteed to die if you miss the spot for whatever reason.

[Angelus_dead]

Not with a 30 pt resist up.
What low-level elite traps do you think do less than 30 points of damage on a failed save?

Level 4 is as low as I checked, and they're already doing well over 30.

[Vormaerin]

I think he meant pre mod 6. He was saying the old damage values were too low because his mage could walk through the traps unscathed with Resist Energy up.

[dns801]

[QUOTE=Emili;1577890]That's correct there are none you have to stand and get hit in to disable... you must get across them to the box however and I believe that is what people are complaining about. The Von 5 spinners/electric in the north hall for example. You start on the left side and move back and forth from the left to the right. There is a safe spot on the starting point on the left side which you must be positioned in correctly... to get there you need to time and jump the trap - people who are not skilled video gamers of course will have some trouble (DDO however is not that much of a mario type thing in comparison to a real twitch base game)... however people who have latency problems between client and the servers are at an extreme disadvantage as a latency of 60ms leaves little room for control, any higher then that and it's really not the players motor skills being tested at all but just sure luck. One aspect of the game though is that on elite they DC's can be so high that reflex save no longer comes into play ie.) the lightning/spinners of the north hall again... the save DC is way above 50 on elite thus it does not matter most are going to fail the save anyway so it really only comes down to twitch skills and knowing where the safe spot is at that point... so to some it's really no longer DnD in that sense.QUOTE]

yeah true about jumping through them but if your saves are not good enough to pass through jumping through traps then maybe you need to make a new toon cuz your rouge sucks is what i would say.. the smart ppl dont disable the von 5 traps back and forth either they do 1 side at a time lowers chances of getting hurt... p.s. this is not directed at emili just in general terms...i never had any problems and still dont doing the traps... must just be that whoever is having problems with it is a x-treme gimp :D the end

[redoubt]

How about people start talking about what DC values they think is appropriate instead of just saying "OMG, these ones are too high".

Do you want:

1) Non rogues should be able to make their saves fairly often (20s)

2) Any rogue should be pretty safe without having to think about it during builds (30s)

3) Rogues should be safe as long as they make some effort on their ref saves (40s)

4) Even rogues should have to make a serious effort with feats and APs to not need the sweet spots (50s)

5) Only highly specialized builds don't need the safe spots (60s).


I like things at #3, but it seems that they are currently at #5 though its hard to be sure in the hysteria. The old values were clearly too easy, particularly on the damage. If the current damage levels are maintained and the DCs are set around the 3rd concept (exact numbers to be determined, but mid to high 40s seems reasonable to me at the cap), then there is a good incentive for players to start learning the sweet spots and practicing them (because of the high damage) but you aren't guaranteed to die if you miss the spot for whatever reason.

Mostly #3. Build a non-halfling (don't want luck thrown in there) rogue with EVERYTHING (dex, feats, AP, dex item, resist item, luck item) you can take to improve your saves. No buffs. 90% of that number equals max save DC on elite at equal level. (The 90% number may need a slight adjustment. Not competely sure what that number should be yet.)

Then you can go a point or two either side for variety.

My basic concept for DCs is xx% of what you can get by an absolute min-max. (Most of us agree that the absolute min-max in these situations is normally gimped in many things to get a specific number very high. These are not normally good characters and are not wha the game should be built around.)


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(14 Rogue)
Hit Points: 76
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 3
Reflex: 22 +4 extra dex points
Will: 4

Feat/Enhancement
Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 14)
Strength 8
Dexterity 28 +2 tome +6 item = 36
Constitution 6
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 8
Charisma 10

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Snake Blood

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense IV



So a base 26 reflex at level 14. (Though, I think we can agree that those feats and APs selections would not make a great charcter, but rather show possible reflex save.)

Add
1 -- luck gloves
5 -- resist item (not easy to get, but okay.)
4 -- trap sense
-----
36 with no buffs. (Am I missing anything here? Maybe count hero pots?)

I would think that based on this that any quest that is level 14 (i.e. 14 normal, 13 hard, or 12 elite) would have trap save DCs of 32.4 (+-2 maybe for variety).

Thoughts???

[lostinjapan]

I think he meant pre mod 6. He was saying the old damage values were too low because his mage could walk through the traps unscathed with Resist Energy up.

She.

And yes, that is what I was saying.

Pre-Mod6, trap damage was too low.
Post-Mod6, trap damage is too high.

I do not want the devs to revert back to the old damage calculations, but I do believe (as I have stated many times) that the damage output is currently inflated beyond what is acceptable, especially for the casual and average players, and especially when you compare the trap damage to the damage received from mobs in the same (elite) quest.

[Vormaerin]

Mostly #3. Build a non-halfling (don't want luck thrown in there) rogue with EVERYTHING (dex, feats, AP, dex item, resist item, luck item) you can take to improve your saves. No buffs.

I would think that based on this that any quest that is level 14 (i.e. 14 normal, 13 hard, or 12 elite) would have trap save DCs of 32.4 (+-2 maybe for variety).

Thoughts???

Well, Resilience is better than any of the feats (all of the feats combined, actually) that you took. Ignoring buffs is a tricky question. I'd be more inclined to ignore equipment, frankly. There's a lot of buffs you can get pretty easily without it being too expensive, given its only a few quests that you'd have to worry about the save DC anyway.

Uncanny Dodge is something all rogues (and barbarians) would have. That's a big buff right there. Other builds might have thief acrobat, allowing 'showtime' for +2 more ref save.

But 30s for lvl 12 quests on elite doesn't seem crazy since I was thinking 40s for the lvl 16 quests on elite....

[Shade]

and if you don't read these forums or have access to a friendly neighborhood leet power gamer, who will hold your hand thru every elite quest, you're screwed.
Yes you are.

And so what? If your not elite, should you be able to beat an elite quest?
No you shouldn't. Play it on normal.

[Shade]

How about Keeper's Sanctuary and The Enemy Within?

What particular trap?

All I remember about those quests is easily timed blade and spike traps that were just as easily disabled.
Think enemy within was mostly pit traps, which are pretty obvious.. go around em.

Crucible test of agility.. Well its a test of agility. If your agile enough you'll do it without getting hit, its really quite easy, jump learn the best path and its only a few jumps.. I often do it on my sorcerer.

[croger1520033]

I call shennanigans. In the pit you cannot dodge the electricity trap when pulling the levers. It is completely based on luck as to whether or not the lightning strikes.

In STK where you have to climb up the ladder with the fire blowing you have to be extremely lucky not to (a) die from fire and (b) die from the hobgoblin casters.



I call shennanigans again. VoN5 has traps that require you to stand in it. There are several other quests I have seen with a fire jet positioned to fire directly at the trap box while the rogue disarms it.



I call shennanigans again.

If a twinked out rogue of an appropriate level cannot live through the traps then something is wrong. Last time I did VoN5 (we did it on Hard) the rogue died so often while disabling the hallway he had to recall twice to fix his gear. Granted, he should have taken off his gear, but that's not the point. The point is he was twinked, he was experienced, and he died more then 20 times even though he was L12.

Also, your statement that an L16 average player should not be able to complete an L1 elite quest is false. The point of Elite is to ramp up the difficulty of the quest so that it is extremely difficult for a level appropriate group of players. Not impossible for level appropriate "skilled" players. Not impossible for L+5 characters of "average" skill.


Lol you need to redefine what you consider twinked then. My level 11 non twinked out rogue can do the traps in VoN5 on elite without dieing once every time.

[redoubt]

Well, Resilience is better than any of the feats (all of the feats combined, actually) that you took. Ignoring buffs is a tricky question. I'd be more inclined to ignore equipment, frankly. There's a lot of buffs you can get pretty easily without it being too expensive, given its only a few quests that you'd have to worry about the save DC anyway.

Uncanny Dodge is something all rogues (and barbarians) would have. That's a big buff right there. Other builds might have thief acrobat, allowing 'showtime' for +2 more ref save.

But 30s for lvl 12 quests on elite doesn't seem crazy since I was thinking 40s for the lvl 16 quests on elite....

I was just trying to use things that were permanent. Skill boost, acrobat, buffs etc are timed. Boost and acrobat are fairly limited in duration and number of uses as well. I though resillance was a combat buff? Does it work in traps?

If we can agree on a concept level, then the technical details can be worked out easier. I'm not saying that it would have to be based on gear or buffs or which ever. That is my initial thought, but it needs to be discussed. The biggest hurdle I think is deciding how close to 100% of the possible reflex save you need to be to stand IN a trap and only get hit on a 1. My initial answer is 90%. I'll have to work a couple builds to see just how difficult it is to get to 90%. I think it should take effort and that you should have to sacrifice something, but not everything. Anyway... thanks for the reply.

[krud]

Yes you are.

And so what? If your not elite, should you be able to beat an elite quest?
No you shouldn't. Play it on normal.
Oh boy! that's funny. "leet is leet you pusilanimous wannabe DDO players."

No other class has those requirements in order to succeed in an elite quest. With a halfway decent build, good gameplay, and just a vague knowledge of what kind of creatures to expect any other class can be picked up in a pug to help successfully complete an elite quest. No other class requires such intimate knowledge of specific parts of a quest in order to succeed. Evryone can help figure out the particularly rough spots. Not true of the rogue. If the DCs are set so high that even a well built, well played rogue needs exact knowledge for completion, then that unecessarily places too much emphasis on the rogue. Additionally, if all that is required is to know the sweet spots, then why need the new +2/tier trap sense enhancements coming in next update, or any reflex bonuses for that matter? They are not necessary.

You can still be that "leet" player, run thru a quest many times with your alts, know what you need to know about a quest, and that still might not be enough when you come back thru with your rogue. Are you telling me that if you have a "leet" barbarian and want to pug your first ever run in a quest, and everyone wants to do elite, that you'd take kindly to being told "No, you must first run this on normal because that's what you need to do as a barbarian"?

As far as trap difficulties I would go with #3. Traps not essential for completion of a quest can have the bar raised to #4 and #5. That leaves plenty room for the specialized build to shine, without limiting pug groups to only specifically knowledgeable rogues. Especially hard traps open up areas necessary to gain conquest, or chests with better loot, or a way avoid to a boss, bad fight, etc.

[RTN]

The new trap saves and damage on elite clearly took it from ridiculously low to way too high. I ran Scoundrel's Run the other night for favor in a PUG with a full party L12-16. We had a L15 or L16 pure dex build ranger (i.e., his reflex save was very high), which we figured should be enough for the fire hallway. You can get to the safe lower door area with Fire Resist (30), Fire Protection (might need recasting) and some twitch skills. But that final piece is directly in 2 or 3 streams of fire (and you get the stupid bind message, IIRC). On elite, they do around 120 hp of damage each hit (and they stay on constantly once someone enters the area). Our pure Ranger died, multiple times. My Wiz made it to the safe spot and tried to keep protections on him, but still no good. I have a capped concentration skill and an item, but failed my check even on a 20 (L12 at the time). We had to call in a pure rogue (I forget if L15 or L16). He did it, but nearly died himself. That's on a very high level pure rogue. I can't imagine a level appropriate group trying to do it. They'd need a pure rogue for sure and they still might fail (the only way I can think to reliably do it is to bring down a healer to the door, but then you need to survive long enough to turn the valve because going back up would be much more difficult given the jumps you'd have to make uphill). Maybe our rogue simply rolled badly, but those saves and damage are too high.

Pre-Mod 6, I'd duo'd it with a L14 Paladin and Wizard without any problem (either Pally could save and heal through the hallway or the Wiz could use Fire Prot, or some combo of the two. For those saying, it's not so bad, have you done it POST MOD 6. I'll repeat, if you haven't done it POST MOD 6, then try it before commenting.

[redoubt]

Oh boy! that's funny. "leet is leet you pusilanimous wannabe DDO players."

No other class has those requirements in order to succeed in an elite quest. With a halfway decent build, good gameplay, and just a vague knowledge of what kind of creatures to expect any other class can be picked up in a pug to help successfully complete an elite quest. No other class requires such intimate knowledge of specific parts of a quest in order to succeed. Evryone can help figure out the particularly rough spots. Not true of the rogue. If the DCs are set so high that even a well built, well played rogue needs exact knowledge for completion, then that unecessarily places too much emphasis on the rogue. Additionally, if all that is required is to know the sweet spots, then why need the new +2/tier trap sense enhancements coming in next update, or any reflex bonuses for that matter? They are not necessary.

You can still be that "leet" player, run thru a quest many times with your alts, know what you need to know about a quest, and that still might not be enough when you come back thru with your rogue. Are you telling me that if you have a "leet" barbarian and want to pug your first ever run in a quest, and everyone wants to do elite, that you'd take kindly to being told "No, you must first run this on normal because that's what you need to do as a barbarian"?

As far as trap difficulties I would go with #3. Traps not essential for completion of a quest can have the bar raised to #4 and #5. That leaves plenty room for the specialized build to shine, without limiting pug groups to only specifically knowledgeable rogues. Especially hard traps open up areas necessary to gain conquest, or chests with better loot, or a way avoid to a boss, bad fight, etc.

Well said.

Something else I just thought of is the part of this problem is caused by hit point inflation. I was reading the save/damage numbers thread and many of the damages he listed are higher for one hit than many characters of that level have. Unless you are a dwarf!!!

[krud]

Mostly #3. Build a non-halfling (don't want luck thrown in there) rogue with EVERYTHING (dex, feats, AP, dex item, resist item, luck item) you can take to improve your saves. No buffs. 90&#37; of that number equals max save DC on elite at equal level. (The 90% number may need a slight adjustment. Not competely sure what that number should be yet.)

Then you can go a point or two either side for variety.

My basic concept for DCs is xx% of what you can get by an absolute min-max. (Most of us agree that the absolute min-max in these situations is normally gimped in many things to get a specific number very high. These are not normally good characters and are not wha the game should be built around.)

So a base 26 reflex at level 14. (Though, I think we can agree that those feats and APs selections would not make a great charcter, but rather show possible reflex save.)

Add
1 -- luck gloves
5 -- resist item (not easy to get, but okay.)
4 -- trap sense
-----
36 with no buffs. (Am I missing anything here? Maybe count hero pots?)

I would think that based on this that any quest that is level 14 (i.e. 14 normal, 13 hard, or 12 elite) would have trap save DCs of 32.4 (+-2 maybe for variety).

Thoughts???

Add +4 for trap sense feat (different than the enhancement, this is an automatic feat for rogues, +1 every 3 levels), and +6 for improved uncanny dodge. total +46 unbuffed. I would think that any build that throws everything into it should be able to succeed without any buffs needed. Average builds should be able to make up the difference with buffs, and subpar rogues will need every single buff in game (and maybe a pally close by) to have a shot. I still say 40 is a good starting point for most quests 12 and above.

[Vormaerin]

I was just trying to use things that were permanent. Skill boost, acrobat, buffs etc are timed. Boost and acrobat are fairly limited in duration and number of uses as well. I though resillance was a combat buff? Does it work in traps?



Resilience is a stance. As long as you are in it, you get +4 on saves and take a to hit and damage penalty. It doesn't care what the source of the saving throw is.

Acrobat is currently pretty short, but its getting boosted to a pretty good duration. Anyway, 20 seconds for a boost is plenty to get to most traps and disarm them (at which point you don't need the boost anyway). Especially if you just need to get through the trap. I wouldn't want to rely on them, because you could run out in trap intensive dungeons, but ignoring them completely makes things rather easier than it should be. Spell type buffs, which most rogues can cast via UMD, last a good bit longer.

Eladrin has stated in another thread that the intention is that elite be more like +5 levels in difficulty, but only +2 levels in reward. Its for players who want things harder just for the sake of being harder. I don't think they've managed that across the board, but traps are certainly fitting that theory now. So numbers probably need to be adjusted upwards. Or, to put it another way, your existing suggestion would be for lvl 9 quests on elite.

One downward mitigation on your numbers.. I think you should be using a 28pt human as the default. Drow and 32 pt characters are rewards that come later. That means Dex is probably about 30. Nevertheless,I do think Krug is right and we should be looking at high 30s/low 40s given you can swap out all 3 of your feats for just resilience. I thought you'd included Trap Sense, but krug pointed out that it seems to have been missed. That explains why your numbers were coming out a bit lower than I expected. The boost to trap sense coming up we can safely ignore, as that will just let pure rogue go with fewer levels while letting the multis catch up a bit.

[Angelus_dead]

Eladrin has stated in another thread that the intention is that elite be more like +5 levels in difficulty, but only +2 levels in reward. Its for players who want things harder just for the sake of being harder. I don't think they've managed that across the board, but traps are certainly fitting that theory now. So numbers probably need to be adjusted upwards.
No, traps certainly do NOT fit that theory now.

Go into a level 1 quest on elite, and check the DC for the traps. You'll see it takes about a 29 to pass the save.

Now go out into a level 1 + 5 = 6 quest and check the DC of a trap. Notice that the DC is less than 20.

Keep on going into higher level quests searching for a trap with a 29 DC. Notice that this doesn't happen until level 12.

Elite traps aren't 5 levels harder- they're 12 levels harder

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, that's one way of looking at "Five levels harder". But you could also look at it as "what level is necessary to make that DC", in which case it is suitable for lvl 6 characters. A lvl 6 rogue would get +5 base reflex, +5 or more from Dex 20+ (could be up to 26), +2 Trap Sense, +4 Resilience feat, +2 Improved Trap Sense enhancement, +2 ref save item (could be +4 with trapsense goggles). For an unbuffed total reflex save of +20 to +24. Toss in buffs (haste potion for +1, heroism potion for +2, uncanny dodge +4) and a DC 29 isn't insurmountable. And that's before the trapsense enhancement doubles in value or using a Night Shield scroll.

[krud]

Yeah, that's one way of looking at "Five levels harder". But you could also look at it as "what level is necessary to make that DC", in which case it is suitable for lvl 6 characters. A lvl 6 rogue would get +5 base reflex, +5 or more from Dex 20+ (could be up to 26), +2 Trap Sense, +4 Resilience feat, +2 Improved Trap Sense enhancement, +2 ref save item (could be +4 with trapsense goggles). For an unbuffed total reflex save of +20 to +24. Toss in buffs (haste potion for +1, heroism potion for +2, uncanny dodge +4) and a DC 29 isn't insurmountable. And that's before the trapsense enhancement doubles in value or using a Night Shield scroll.

Resilience requires a 13 con, so it's not like every rogue can just take it, unless they planned for it (especially drow/elves). Not really fair to include it as part of a standard rogue build. I would count it as part of a trap specialized build, or as a way for dwarven/wf rogues to make up ground on their elven/halfling counterparts, but certainly not as part of a standard rogue build.

[Raithe]

...or using a Night Shield scroll.

A nightshield scroll (caster level 1) will only provide a +1 resistance bonus that does not stack with items.

FYI

[Mad_Bombardier]

Resilience requires a 13 con, so it's not like every rogue can just take it, unless they planned for it (especially drow/elves).There should not be a character in this game with <13 starting CON. The character creation screen shouldn't even let you advance if you have less. :p

[Westerner]

There should not be a character in this game with <13 starting CON.
I concur that >=13 CON is a good rule of thumb, although some (multiclassed) 28pt builds might consider less.

[Raithe]

There should not be a character in this game with <13 starting CON.

Way to attempt to mandate your style of play. Some of us want to be punished when we screw up and don't have heavy fortification protection. Some of us attempt to heal ourselves rather than assume someone else will eventually fill our massive hit point pool. Some of us attempt to play well enough to seldom take damage.

[Pellegro]

Way to attempt to mandate your style of play. Some of us want to be punished when we screw up and don't have heavy fortification protection. Some of us attempt to heal ourselves rather than assume someone else will eventually fill our massive hit point pool. Some of us attempt to play well enough to seldom take damage.

And some of us incessantly whine when things don't go our way, or post belittling diatribes directed at those who don't agree with us.

Some of us.

:p

[Raithe]

And some of us incessantly whine when things don't go our way, or post belittling diatribes directed at those who don't agree with us.

Some of us.

:p

I happen to be addressing this from a game development standpoint (and I develop programs myself). My subscription is about to expire, and I'm only waiting around to see what the big vast and mysterious event is going to be...

...and you need to take a look in the mirror, with that remark.

[krud]

There should not be a character in this game with <13 starting CON. The character creation screen shouldn't even let you advance if you have less. :p

Agreed it's not tough to do, but the feat just came out recently, not everyone planned for it. Especially those characters made back in the day when uber con and HP wasn't all the rage that it is now. Besides, why should a combat stance feat be required as standard fare for a rogue's trapsmithing talents? Str based rogues and some MCs should be able to make up the difference by taking a feat like that, but requiring it for even the dex based rogue is too much. It doesn't leave much room for a variety of builds when it comes to a rogue.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Agreed it's not tough to do, but the feat just came out recently, not everyone planned for it. Especially those characters made back in the day when uber con and HP wasn't all the rage that it is now. Besides, why should a combat stance feat be required as standard fare for a rogue's trapsmithing talents? Str based rogues and some MCs should be able to make up the difference by taking a feat like that, but requiring it for even the dex based rogue is too much. It doesn't leave much room for a variety of builds when it comes to a rogue.The Resilience feat has been in game since release. The need for the feat has only arrived recently. Likewise, the need for CON12+ has only arisen since Mod4-ish (granted that was almost a year ago). Before that, very little in game hit hard enough to warrant super high HP or 100&#37; fortification. Moderate Fort really did cover you pretty well back then. But, the game has progressed and we must progress with it.

And, yes. My reply was meant to be lighthearted. But, no. You do not have to take Resilience. You could take Lightning Reflexes, Luck of Heroes, or Snake Blood feat for +2 or +1 reflex. That is not such a bad thing. You want to be an "elite" trapsmith, then you must pay the cost in feats and enhancements to do so.

[Raithe]

You want to be an "elite" trapsmith, then you must pay the cost in feats and enhancements to do so.

Unfortunately, if you just want to be an "elite" rogue, you don't get to choose trapsmithing as part of that.

[krud]

And, yes. My reply was meant to be lighthearted. But, no. You do not have to take Resilience. You could take Lightning Reflexes, Luck of Heroes, or Snake Blood feat for +2 or +1 reflex. That is not such a bad thing. You want to be an "elite" trapsmith, then you must pay the cost in feats and enhancements to do so.

All I gotta say is look at all the other classes for comparison. Do you get anything like "you must have XX stat points in an auxilliary stat, plus XX feat" in order to be able to perform competently at your level on elite, and if you don't "you'd better rerun the quest on normal and memorize it until you can." In reality it may not be that bad, but some people seem to think the above notion of a rogue is perfectly acceptable. I would like to think of it as one of many options, not a necessity.

[Vormaerin]

Well, it depends on whether you consider trapsmithing a god given right of rogues to be elite at. Its not, imho, their main function in the game, though certainly plenty of people will disagree with me on that.

And I don't think a secondary attribute and a feat is a terribly high price. An intimitank fighter probably has to spend on Int and/or Cha.. which are clearly secondary or worse for fighters in general. And take some sort of feats for it (granted, feats aren't as expensive for fighters as for rogues).

Anyway, you don't need resilience. Its just the best choice for getting the job done with the lowest cost. A lvl 6 rogue can easily have better than the 20 Dex I granted. Only 28pt dwarf or human rogues would probably be that low at that point. There's other ways to make up the resilience feat, too. Trapblast goggles instead of +2 resistance item. Or a luckstone. Or halfling luck or human versatility... Or paladin splash... The point is that if its important to you, DC29 at lvl 6 is not that hard to get. Its certainly not requiring a gimping level of investment.

[Raithe]

Its certainly not requiring a gimping level of investment.

Taking resilience on a rogue for the will and fort save improvements is not a gimping investment.

Taking anything solely to improve reflex saves on a dex-based rogue would have to be justified by typical adventuring maneuvers, and I can't think of an example to use here. A high dex rogue who has no idea what lies ahead would be primarily concerned about his fort save, his will save, his hit points, armor class, attack bonus, and skills. If he has a feat such as lightning reflexes or snake blood it would be mostly for roleplaying flavor, to complement his focus on dexterity. Min/maxxing on a rogue is gimping by the very nature of the class... there are simply too many class-based deficiencies, because the features of the class basically force generalization.

[krud]

Well, it depends on whether you consider trapsmithing a god given right of rogues to be elite at. Its not, imho, their main function in the game, though certainly plenty of people will disagree with me on that.

And I don't think a secondary attribute and a feat is a terribly high price. An intimitank fighter probably has to spend on Int and/or Cha.. which are clearly secondary or worse for fighters in general. And take some sort of feats for it (granted, feats aren't as expensive for fighters as for rogues).

Anyway, you don't need resilience. Its just the best choice for getting the job done with the lowest cost. A lvl 6 rogue can easily have better than the 20 Dex I granted. Only 28pt dwarf or human rogues would probably be that low at that point. There's other ways to make up the resilience feat, too. Trapblast goggles instead of +2 resistance item. Or a luckstone. Or halfling luck or human versatility... Or paladin splash... The point is that if its important to you, DC29 at lvl 6 is not that hard to get. Its certainly not requiring a gimping level of investment.

Correct, it's not a right, but they are the only class capable of doing it. All those choices only work if the DCs are within a reasonable range to allow trading a feat for enhancements or an item, or some stat. If the DCs are so high that all of them are required then you no longer have that choice.

I don't consider the harbor difficulties too high, because they are irrelevent. You don't need to traverse the traps, just search and disable, ...easy, ...done. Doesn't matter if the DC is 1000 if you can disable it with a level 2 rogue. I'm still waiting on some numbers on the particularly difficult traps (ones you must traverse to get to the trap box).

on another note, I like how people seem to arbitrarily set the difficulties of these elite quests to accomodate the trap DCs. "oh now it's a level 6 quest". Take any harbor quest on elite that does not have a trap and ask yourself if an all level 6 party is necessary. Most likely the answer is no, it can be done with a party only 2 levels above the quest.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't consider the harbor difficulties too high, because they are irrelevent. You don't need to traverse the traps, just search and disable, ...easy, ...done. Doesn't matter if the DC is 1000 if you can disable it with a level 2 rogue.
That opinion is too far wrong to deserve a reply.

[Vormaerin]

on another note, I like how people seem to arbitrarily set the difficulties of these elite quests to accomodate the trap DCs. "oh now it's a level 6 quest". Take any harbor quest on elite that does not have a trap and ask yourself if an all level 6 party is necessary. Most likely the answer is no, it can be done with a party only 2 levels above the quest.

No, the lvl 6 thing comes from Eladrin saying he feels elite should be +2 lvls in reward, but about +5 lvls in difficulty. Frankly, you can do any harbor quest without a lot of spellcasters on elite at the base level or lvl +1 with a good party. I can't think of many quests that even with the new traps are really lvl+5 on elite.

Elite setting is highly inconsistent. The scaling is not uniform. Vermin and spellcasters scale up much faster than other melee types. Traps used to scale up less than the mobs. Now they scale up even more than vermin and spellcasters do. Frankly, elite difficulty needs a thorough revamp to serve the function that Eladrin attributes to it.. namely being a mode for people who want it harder just for the sake of being harder, without necessarily gaining equivalent boosts in reward. (Thus his +2/+5 dichotomy).

The devs are obviously attempting to fix this difference in how the players percieve elite mode and how they do. The traps thing is part of it, so is the "new even more enhanced elite" thing for mod 6 quests. I suspect they felt constrained by the favor system in the past, but are taking these steps because you can now get the 1750 favor without elite mode at all.

[krud]

That opinion is too far wrong to deserve a reply.

what's so wrong about that? Some people are trying to say that the harbor DCs are fine by comparing them to a level 6 rogue. If he is a rogue he doesn't need to worry about the DCs because he can spot, find and disable the box without ever stepping foot in the trap. He doesn't need any prior knowledge either, just do what any average rogue or splash rogue should be able to do. The only factors that come into play are spot, search, and disable (which by most accounts are not out of wack). That's why I say those DCs are irrelevant to the rogue. The only people who need to worry about trap DCs at those low levels are those who can't disable a box. How do their saves stack up?

[redoubt]

All I gotta say is look at all the other classes for comparison. Do you get anything like "you must have XX stat points in an auxilliary stat, plus XX feat" in order to be able to perform competently at your level on elite, and if you don't "you'd better rerun the quest on normal and memorize it until you can." In reality it may not be that bad, but some people seem to think the above notion of a rogue is perfectly acceptable. I would like to think of it as one of many options, not a necessity.

Well said.

The damage is fine as long as the saves go back down.

[llevenbaxx]

Taking resilience on a rogue for the will and fort save improvements is not a gimping investment.

Taking anything solely to improve reflex saves on a dex-based rogue would have to be justified by typical adventuring maneuvers, and I can't think of an example to use here. A high dex rogue who has no idea what lies ahead would be primarily concerned about his fort save, his will save, his hit points, armor class, attack bonus, and skills. If he has a feat such as lightning reflexes or snake blood it would be mostly for roleplaying flavor, to complement his focus on dexterity. Min/maxxing on a rogue is gimping by the very nature of the class... there are simply too many class-based deficiencies, because the features of the class basically force generalization.

Have to QFT you again.:)

I fully agree that you cant treat the rogue class the same min/max way you do the other classes. Its painfully easy to make almost every other class in the game because you can pick one main thing(with a minor usually) you want to excel at and go with it. The rogue class just doesnt work that way(part of why they were my favorite), it shows a clear lack of understanding of the class imo. This change takes away alot of the options(the fun for me) in building rogues. Sure you can say the game changes and we should change with it but even if it was a change for the worse? I dont want to make a 1/5 or a 1/4 of a rogue, I want to make a rogue.:)

/signed-disgruntled rogues

[Hadrian]

You can't please everyone. If you make elite actually live up to its description, casual players will complain. If you make it just level +2, it will be too easy to provide a challenge to the top percentage of players.

The problem is with how DDO implemented this. Elite has not been considered really elite before. It was just the place where you got the most loot and favor, and the challenge increase was minimal. We all got used to the loot and favor that elite granted as if it was the normal level to expect. Now we have quests where the casual player is making an argument that elite isn't fair because it is too difficult. Obviously the whole point is to make it too difficult, but people suddenly feel excluded from content that they were used to being able to do.

We're not talking about exclusive content like some other games have. We're not in a raid that only 5% of the player base will ever see. We're in the normal content that runs from level 1-16 for everyone, and I can understand that the majority of the community feels suddenly excluded from what they used to be able to do, and expect to be able to do.

How do we solve that and keep both sides happy? The rewards of favor and loot that the casual player may feel compelled to go after as a normal part of their game play need to be accessible to them. The top percentage of players need to be able to feel challenged.

My vote is for a new difficulty level with only slight bonuses in rewards. Make a "very hard" difficulty that is the same as elite was, and make elite really elite. Leave the traps as they are and boost the encounters in there further. Leave the loot tables the same, but perhaps give an extra two favor or an additional end chest, or allow us to choose two of our end rewards instead of one. This gives us additional loot to cover our additional expense, but it does not give us higher level loot.

This way the casual gamer doesn't lose access to what he has become used to, and is not at a disadvantage in terms of the level of loot that he can get his hands on. The elite gamer can find his challenge with no consideration for the casual gamer whatsoever in the new elite difficulty, and gain his extra reward in the volume of loot instead of the level.

[Raithe]

Now we have quests where the casual player is making an argument that elite isn't fair because it is too difficult.

I'm pretty sure that the argument I've been hearing, from casual and extremely experienced players alike, is that elite isn't fair because it is too exclusionary, and only in the trapsmithing arena.

I would bet many of those same players have near-maximum favor on 1 or more characters, and play elite quests on a very regular basis.

[Hadrian]

The word elite tends to make you think that it is exclusionary by design. The problem I believe that we're having is that this is content we've come to expect any average group to do without any problems. That is why I think they need to separate the reward level from the new level of elite difficulty in order to allow it to remain fair to the casual player, as I described.

[redoubt]

You can't please everyone. If you make elite actually live up to its description, casual players will complain. If you make it just level +2, it will be too easy to provide a challenge to the top percentage of players.

True, you can't please everyone. This change however, based on reading the many threads on it, seems to be disliked by far more players than those who like it. As far as the name "elite" goes, I don't care. There is a reward for it, so I complete it. If additional favor was granted for running level 1, level 2 and level 3 I'd run those too! The name is un-important, but seems to be causing a ton of trouble. Seems we are all up to "some-antics" (pun intented.)

The problem is with how DDO implemented this. Elite has not been considered really elite before. It was just the place where you got the most loot and favor, and the challenge increase was minimal. We all got used to the loot and favor that elite granted as if it was the normal level to expect. Now we have quests where the casual player is making an argument that elite isn't fair because it is too difficult. Obviously the whole point is to make it too difficult, but people suddenly feel excluded from content that they were used to being able to do.

We're not talking about exclusive content like some other games have. We're not in a raid that only 5% of the player base will ever see. We're in the normal content that runs from level 1-16 for everyone, and I can understand that the majority of the community feels suddenly excluded from what they used to be able to do, and expect to be able to do.

How do we solve that and keep both sides happy? The rewards of favor and loot that the casual player may feel compelled to go after as a normal part of their game play need to be accessible to them. The top percentage of players need to be able to feel challenged.

The top percentage of the players will never be satisfied. Period. Guys like Shade and such play so much and so many games that anything on a computer is easy for them. Those players will have to find their own creative ways to be challenged. I've mentioned ideas before as have others.

My vote is for a new difficulty level with only slight bonuses in rewards. Make a "very hard" difficulty that is the same as elite was, and make elite really elite. Leave the traps as they are and boost the encounters in there further. Leave the loot tables the same, but perhaps give an extra two favor or an additional end chest, or allow us to choose two of our end rewards instead of one. This gives us additional loot to cover our additional expense, but it does not give us higher level loot.

NO WAY! Adding a new difficulty level is fine, but if it has even one extra point of favor or is the only place to get xxx, then it become just as elite has been. Add a very challenging mode, yes. But, don't give any extra favor for it and keep the chests at the same level. Many people are saying that they want challenge. If that's true, and you're not just trying to make the best loot in the game more exclusive, then you will run the harder quest even if there is no additional reward, besides maybe xp. The "truely elite" have plenty of money and money is no option as they constantly remind us. Their expenses through any quest are less than for the rest of us. The run faster, kill quicker, get hit less and never get touched by a trap. What expenses are you talking about??? ;)

This way the casual gamer doesn't lose access to what he has become used to, and is not at a disadvantage in terms of the level of loot that he can get his hands on. The elite gamer can find his challenge with no consideration for the casual gamer whatsoever in the new elite difficulty, and gain his extra reward in the volume of loot instead of the level.

Again, are you looking for increased reward or increased challenge?

What is so wrong with an elite quest being complete-able by an average group of players of a given level? For example, scale quest X as leve 5 on normal, level 7 on hard and level 10 on elite. The "Leet doodz" will still run it on elite at level 5 and have the level 10 loot before everyone else. The other 98% of us can run it at level 10.

Having 2400+ favor doesn't make me think I'm as good a player as Kargon or even Shade. But its a nice goal to try and eventually build up to what those guys do in the first week after a release. If players think that me getting the same favor as they have or running a given elite quest 3-4 months after they do takes anything away from them... well. There are some issues there. Many people do marathons or run the "iron man" for the sense of accomplishment. Those people get props for their accomplishment and dedication. At the same time, everyone knows who the winner is, knows who finished first (in half the time of many of the "finishers"), and those people at the front get credit for getting their faster. The other people who finish do not detract from the winners.

/steps off soap box.

[Hadrian]

Again, are you looking for increased reward or increased challenge?



I am going to stop reading here and comment, since it seems you skimmed my post and responded to things I specifically tried to avoid saying, or were in fact excatly the opposite of what I was saying.

I went into some detail about avoiding giving an advantage to the rewards. You're spending more to do a higher level quest, and getting a larger volume of rewards to compensate, but the item level is the same. This means that there would never be a case where the 4th difficulty level is the only place to get item X.

I am assuming that you didn't read my entire post since I tried my best to make that clear already.

People will not run elite if there is no additional reward. The goal is to make people who cannot do it feel like they aren't missing out on anything. If you get an extra chest worth of loot or two end reward choices, but it is loot of the same level as on the previous difficulty setting, then you do not have a problem of excluding anyone from a certain level of loot. The added reward answers the added cost and gives people a reason to do that quest.


What is so wrong with an elite quest being complete-able by an average group of players of a given level?

The goal of the changes was to make elite feel more like elite. Based on the meaning of the word elite, that says to me that the point is to exclude the average gamer. Obviously that doesn't work out in this situation. That is why I am saying that they need to separate this level of elite questing from reward level so that casual players do not miss out on the highest possible reward levels, while elite quests are successfully made elite.

[krud]

The goal of the changes was to make elite feel more like elite. Based on the meaning of the word elite, that says to me that the point is to exclude the average gamer. Obviously that doesn't work out in this situation. That is why I am saying that they need to separate this level of elite questing from reward level so that casual players do not miss out on the highest possible reward levels, while elite quests are successfully made elite.

one question; Is it elite player or elite build that you mean? Most would say an elite player with an average build would do ok, even in your super elite quests. However, if DCs are set too high it may also push you into needing a specific elite build too. Something that in this case only targets the rogue class.

For a mage this would almost be the equivalent of running into a mob that had insane DR (making melee attacks useless), elemental resists/immunity, and immunity to damaging spells, etc, leaving FoD as the only way for the party to get by. Then imagine if the SR was set so high that it becomes necessary to have all the spell pen feats and enhancements, and max out your INT/CHA (but be sure to leave some points in con, str and dex cause you'll need those too), plus focus gear in order to have a decent shot before he zaps you with a ray . Your choices are work on your twitch skills so you can continually dodge his rays until you land something, or max out your stats, feats and enhancements. Set DCs too high and that's almost what you are looking at from a rogue standpoint.

[redoubt]

Hal, I did read the whole post and found it worthy of discussion. In your post you mentioned increased favor for the next level.

I could prolly go with more of the same level loot, but that still has the same trouble of pushing people into it due to higher reward.

Again I say if it is a matter of pride and finding a greater level of challenge, then success at the harder level is the reward.

A final note: many people never ran anything but normal before favor came into play. Now, many people do. This is why any new uber player only stuff cannot have tangeble rewards.

[unionyes]

Warning Potential Spoiler Alert?

This weekend I wanted to investigate the claims of everyone about saves being through the roof for traps. I hadn't really noticed it (and the search/spot DC increases were due to my getting my goggles mixed up on my hotbar, my goof up, was putting on my dream visor to search with it's -7 to search skill).

Went into Cabal For One with my rogue 11, on hard. Found the box, disabled the trap after running in to the box and making my save. It was my first shot at it. Two people in my group said that they hadn't ever seen that trap disabled before. It didn't seem all that hard, but was't on elite after all. Did it three more times, with the same results.

Went back into Cabal on elite after leveling up to 12. Everyone in group said that there was no way I could get it, that the DC's were insane to find it and the trap would slaughter me instantly even if I could find the box in the first place. I couldn't find the box, in spite of the friendly ministrations of a superb bard (and with the right goggles on). I had a few rez scrolls in my pack, so I figured I would try and run through the trap to the back and see if I couldn't open up the chest, would give the cleric a scroll if he had to rez me. In I go, unscathed. Checked the dice, and saw that I had made my save with a 19 roll. Opened the chest, took out some entirely normal loot, and ran back through, again undamaged. Checked the dice, saw that I had made my save with a 3 (Elite Cabal trap!). The ranger went next because he had evasion and saves as good as mine, and made it in and out untouched. Then the fighter. Then the caster. Then the bard. Then the cleric (who really had to take a leap of faith to run through there). We began to discuss if it may or may not be bugged. Everyone in the whole party saved and took no damage at all.

I don't know if it is a bug - if it is, it's an exploit that isn't worth the time to do it, the loot isn't anything worthwhile, I think I pulled 500 gold and vendor junk so mundane I can't even remember what it was. If it isn't, then at least one trap has had its DC severely nerfed.

[krud]

I don't know if it is a bug - if it is, it's an exploit that isn't worth the time to do it, the loot isn't anything worthwhile, I think I pulled 500 gold and vendor junk so mundane I can't even remember what it was. If it isn't, then at least one trap has had its DC severely nerfed.

most probably a bug. check out this bug - no damage on any failed saves. It's in the infamous VoN5 electric/spinning blades trap. Notice the failed save at 19+30 = 49. It suggests a DC of at least 50 on elite.
http://home.comcast.net/~neatoman/images/ScreenShot00045.jpg

[dragons1ayer74]

I think these changes will end up hurting the rouge class more than any other for the simple fact that unless you build a specialized rouge or are a twitch based elete player you will not be able to do elite which will mean a lot of rouges especailly newer ones won't be able to make their saves this will often result in rouges dying and the train of thought will be even more so that most rouges are gimped and theirfor not needed. The buffed dwarf can still run throught the trap and haul every other stone to the next shrine so why even bother with the rouge.

[Hadrian]

Hal, I did read the whole post and found it worthy of discussion.

I mentioned adding one or two points of favor as a "for instance," along with several alternatives. The point is to make a reward without excluding casual gamers from the same level of reward. Latching on to one nit-pick out of a huge post tells me you didn't really read it, especially when you ask me a question as if scolding me that I directly answered already in the post you quoted.

By the way, who is Hal? Try to at least read my name correctly. :P


Again I say if it is a matter of pride and finding a greater level of challenge, then success at the harder level is the reward.

It sounds nice to say that, but I am trying to be realistic with my suggestions.

[unionyes]

By the way, who is Hal? Try to at least read my name correctly. :P


Why did I just suddenly get a vision of being in a spaceship drifting in orbit with a disembodied voice calling me Dave and warning me not to touch something?

[captain1z]

Warning Potential Spoiler Alert?

This weekend I wanted to investigate the claims of everyone about saves being through the roof for traps. I hadn't really noticed it (and the search/spot DC increases were due to my getting my goggles mixed up on my hotbar, my goof up, was putting on my dream visor to search with it's -7 to search skill).

Went into Cabal For One with my rogue 11, on hard. Found the box, disabled the trap after running in to the box and making my save. It was my first shot at it. Two people in my group said that they hadn't ever seen that trap disabled before. It didn't seem all that hard, but was't on elite after all. Did it three more times, with the same results.

Went back into Cabal on elite after leveling up to 12. Everyone in group said that there was no way I could get it, that the DC's were insane to find it and the trap would slaughter me instantly even if I could find the box in the first place. I couldn't find the box, in spite of the friendly ministrations of a superb bard (and with the right goggles on). I had a few rez scrolls in my pack, so I figured I would try and run through the trap to the back and see if I couldn't open up the chest, would give the cleric a scroll if he had to rez me. In I go, unscathed. Checked the dice, and saw that I had made my save with a 19 roll. Opened the chest, took out some entirely normal loot, and ran back through, again undamaged. Checked the dice, saw that I had made my save with a 3 (Elite Cabal trap!). The ranger went next because he had evasion and saves as good as mine, and made it in and out untouched. Then the fighter. Then the caster. Then the bard. Then the cleric (who really had to take a leap of faith to run through there). We began to discuss if it may or may not be bugged. Everyone in the whole party saved and took no damage at all.

I don't know if it is a bug - if it is, it's an exploit that isn't worth the time to do it, the loot isn't anything worthwhile, I think I pulled 500 gold and vendor junk so mundane I can't even remember what it was. If it isn't, then at least one trap has had its DC severely nerfed.

Went into cabal with my triple-class rogue. Granted I worked on my skills and I expect to do well, prayer and greater hero and 10th level gear as opposed to the 12th level gear I could wear if I had any.............. found and disabled that trap.

Was a very proud moment. Funny of my 3 rogues:


- rogue/wiz wanted to try that trap but with he reflex saves not cutting it anymore, was gunna re-roll

- pure rogue with killer DPS in mind...... still has a chance but hadnt planned on trying

- pali/ranger/rogue ......... all mixed up and confused and hes the one to do it


yeah I know it was on normal.... but that trap is legendary