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View Full Version : The roles of a party... Thoughts on the way we interact



cdemeritt
02-02-2008, 01:15 AM
Hello All,
I'm a fairly new player to DDO, but have managed to generate several characters and have been perplexed by the way some people run. I just want to pen my thoughts (OK Key my thoughts) about the roles of different people in a party. I also came across a statement in another thread today that stated that "this is YOUR role and you shouldn't be different" That is not what this thread is about and I know there are many different ways to run a quest, and how you build your particular toon is up to you. I just hope to provide some food for thought that might help someone think a little more about their roles and put together a better party.

The goal of the party and the responsibility of the whole party is to finish the quest, gain XP and/or loot, and survive with the minimal loss of life as possible. To this end there are many jobs within the party that need to be preformed.


Party Leader- since they are pretty important, I'll start here. Putting together a balanced party is very important. I recently was invited to a party to run S-T-K, I was playing my 5th lvl rogue, and jumped at the chance, all those traps at the end. Well after accepting the invite, I checked out the party, there were 2 other lvl 3 rogues, for a total of 3 rogues, 2 rangers and 1 paladin with my rogue being the only one above 4th lvl. No tanks, no Cleric, and no casters. I politely told the leader that they didn't really need a 3rd rogue, and suggested that they look for a tank or cleric, and left that party. did they take the advice? I don't know. Maybe they were successful. I just didn't feel it was a party that stood much hope. Knowing your quest is very helpful in putting together a party to run it.
It is also important to be strong as the leader. I've seen far too many parties fall apart or get divided by a non-responsive or weak leader. If you are the leader, you need to dictate the direction you wish the party to go. If you don't know the quest and wish another member of the party to be the guide, indicate to the party who the party is to follow. If you don't do this, sometimes it happens on it's own, but often you get 2 or 3 people fighting for control of the party and soon you have people running in very different directions and into trouble. I was in a quest I've done before, but due to a breakdown we got separated. I was trying to use my map to get back to everyone, but there was a arrow pointing to 1 person in the North, 1 pointing to the south, one east and one west. I was lost, and confused.
The leader needs to make clear the strategies to be played out. Are we fighting in the door, are we sneaking around, what/how do you want to have happen. But above all you need to listen to your party as well, and communicate.

Tanks- Tanks, you have a very important job to preform, Kill. The primary function of a tank on quests is to crush the enemy, thus protecting the party. Having run a dwarven tank, I know the power possessed by the Tank characters. A near invulnerability, massive mega kill power, make you sometimes forget that the rest of your party might not be so invulnerable, and can be quite squishy. So while you run into the middle of the room, all the enemy run around you and take out several members of your party before you can get aggro. Been there, Done that. You need to remember to protect your party, and sometimes that means shield blocking at a doorway and let the rangers shoot arrows over you. Don't get too far ahead of your party, you never know what mess you could get into, and if you are out of your healers range, don't blame them for your death.

Clerics- There are many ways to play a cleric, but for this I will use what I've observed to be what most people Expect from a cleric. The main role of a cleric in a party is to keep the party alive. most people expect that a cleric will heal them in battle. They also hope for buffs as well. that is not to say that a cleric can't do or use other things and spells. I've built my cleric to be a buffing healing cleric. I tried at first to be a battle cleric, but found that I would be too caught up in a battle to notice that a team member needed me. If you are a battle cleric, and don't intend to be the healer, you should let your party know this before entering the quest. I was running my dwarf tank, and was trying a new weapons arrangement, so I was checking the kill score just to see if there was an improvement in my kill count. I personally had taken out +70 enemies to the Party avg of 20, I slipped off a ledge, and got cornered. by the time it was over, I had 5 HP left. I asked for a heal. Nothing. I asked again, and the cleric who had almost full mana said no, as it would be a waste of her mana. next big battle took her out, because I was killed almost instantly, and was unable to stop the onslaught. If the cleric plays the healer, and keeps the tanks going, the tanks will keep you alive. also remember, if you are not attacking, you draw much less aggro.

Sorcerers and Wizards- You can be very effective in helping the tanks, either though Crowd Control, or attack spells. Just remember you don't do any good if you are dead. You, at your best, are soft and squishy, and your bones go crunch with one swing of a ogre club. Remember this as you run past your tanks. choose your spells wisely. getting aggro on several monsters at once can be deadly, and can make it difficult for a Tank to protect you. I've often seen monsters run right by my tank to get at the caster. Strategy is your best friend. Use doorways and tight spaces to your advantage. Put the firewall in the door so the tanks can hold the monsters in it. Scorching ray is a great spell, but useless against Blackbone Skellies, who are immune. once you find out that they are immune, casting it 6 more times isn't going to change that fact. Fire monsters usually are not affected by fire spells, and in some cases can be healed by them. Try something else. Mana managment is also key. if you run out, you become almost useless. save shrines when you can. Don't just hit the shrine as soon as you see it, yes you may be down to 70% of your total SP but you still have 70% to use. Also, if there are 3 tanks that are working 1 monster and they are not having problems with it, let the tanks take care of the monster. Sword swings don't run out, SP does. I can't count how many times my scorching ray doesn't leave my hands until the monster is already dead, wasting SP.


Rogues- your job is harder to define. you are the trap finder/door opener. But you are a squishy. There are many quests where I'm glad we have a rogue to disarm traps or to pick a lock. However playing these characters, I often find the role difficult to play. I feel the need to contribute more to the party, and that the few traps don't really justify my being there. This leads to my rushing into battles where I often get hurt bad. Some rogues are built strong and tough, others not so much. remember you can't warn of traps when your stuck in between a giants toes. know what you are capable of and play accordingly.

All others- know what you are capable of and play accordingly keeping in mind that you must protect the team above all else.



And Everyone- It is everyones responsibility to listen to each other. This includes the typed messages as well. If 4 people in the party Say "lets do this on Normal" and you jump in on "Elite" because that is what you want to do, well that's just plain rude. If you are told " Stop.. TRAP" by both text and voice, and to get killed by a trap, well that is your problem. If you Zerg and get killed, I as a cleric am not going to waste a rez scroll on you. If I'm buffing and you run away before I'm done, if you missed that haste or whatever, don't expect me to recast it.
Patience will save lives in this game. Strategy saves SP. Sticking together is important. waiting 2 minutes before jumping into a quest to allow the whole party to gather can make the difference between a easy mission and a difficult one. If the party wipes, wait for everyone to get back to full strength before trying again. if the monster took out all 6 people, what make you think you can get it by yourself? and communicate what your intentions are. If you AFK, let the party know this.
Also, try to time your visits to the shops to sell and buy things for before or after big quests. Nothing annoys me more than having everyone at the portal, waiting to start or during a multi-part quest and then have someone run to the market to sell or for some other purpose, then as they are almost back have someone else go AFK, then the first person go BRB, and run off again. This just puts a bad start to a mission. Ok, sometimes it is necessary to do this, but try to be ready to run the mission before joining a party.

Don't blame the cleric for everything. If the cleric says he's out of SP and you don't make an effort to get him to a shrine, it's not their fault you died. It is a good idea to not depend solely on your cleric for heals. Let them heal you in Battle, but help them conserve SP for when they need it by healing yourself when you can. Drinking that potion now might just save the SP needed to keep you going later. Don't expect that the cleric is going to spend all his money to buy rez scrolls and wands so you can Zerg. Always thank your cleric. If you want to Zerg, make sure you can take care of yourself.


Well I got that off my chest.
Chris

Arianrhod
02-02-2008, 08:56 AM
One of the great things about DDO is that there are so many different ways to approach any quest, and still succeed (or have fun, whichever is more important to you). Some people prefer to put together a balanced party and have everyone concentrate on the strengths of their particular class. This works especially well in attempting difficult quests that require a lot of cooperation to succeed. Others like the challenge of throwing together any 6 characters & seeing how they work together to solve problems which would have been easy with the "right" class along (having the ranger heal with wands, and the paladin set off traps, while the wizard casts jump on everyone so they can all get through them without a rogue or "pure" healer, for instance).

What's most important (in my opinion, of course, others may differ), is communication and clear expectations. It's easy to look at a group in the LFM before joining to see what kind of characters they already have & whether it looks like the one you want to bring will fit in well. If the leader appears to be accepting all comers, you can either decide that's not the kind of group you're in the mood for, or go ahead & join & see how it works out. It can be fun, but only if all party members have the same general expectations. That's why it's important to let the group know when you join, whether you plan to melee, range, heal, cast offensively, or hang back & see what's needed. It's also important for the group leader to make it clear whether they know the quest or plan to proceed slowly, and what they expect from each member (politely, of course - no one really likes a dictator).

Lithic
02-02-2008, 10:45 AM
Your essay is telling me one thing: you are way WAY too rigid in your expectations of classes in DDO.

Some of the most fun quests I've run were with 4 rogues, a paladin and a fighter. Or 6 human casters. Or all rogues.
If you drop any group without a cleric, you are seriously cheating yourself out of some great groups. People tend to play better without a cleric, and (no offence) but the players that avoid cleric-less groups tend to be the weakest players. Sure some groups can fail, but to assume a group sucks because they lack certain classes is a mistake. Ive been in horrid groups composed of 1 caster, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 paladin, 1 barbarian, 1 fighter (arguably the most balanced group you can have).

I've also grouped with many unconventional builds (And have a few myself). You should never let your classes choose your role for you. Got 16 cleric levels? Don't have to be a healbot. You can be a front-line fighter, or crowdcontroler, or nuker. Got 16 sorc levels? You can be a caster, or frontline fighter, or WF healbot. Don't assume you know what every character's role is until you ask the player what THEY think their role is.

As for your "party-leader and leadership" opinion, again I disagree. The party leader's role is to gather up to 6 players (or 12) and choose the first quest on the list. Should they be able to lead the group? Maybe, but nothing says another can't be the leader even if they don't have a little star.

genericearthling
02-02-2008, 10:51 AM
maybe you havent played at high levels yet, but casters are not waterboys for tanks. My lvl 14 warforged wizard is anything but squishey 40 AC, 250 hp etc. It has been a long time since ANY tank has killed more than him. i always love how people wanna make you play the game the way they think you should. go have fun.

Jaywade
02-02-2008, 11:22 AM
well there's a lot here I do/don't agree with so let me my input in red



Hello All,
I'm a fairly new player to DDO, but have managed to generate several characters and have been perplexed by the way some people run. understand your new was wondering what your highest lvl is currentlyI just want to pen my thoughts (OK Key my thoughts) about the roles of different people in a party. I also came across a statement in another thread today that stated that "this is YOUR role and you shouldn't be different" That is not what this thread is about and I know there are many different ways to run a quest, and how you build your particular toon is up to you. I just hope to provide some food for thought that might help someone think a little more about their roles and put together a better party.

The goal of the party and the responsibility of the whole party is to finish the quest, gain XP and/or loot, and survive with the minimal loss of life as possible. To this end there are many jobs within the party that need to be preformed.


Party Leader- since they are pretty important, I'll start here. Putting together a balanced party is very important.okay one thing to be sure there are almost no quest sin this game where you need x, heck I've seen dragon runs w/ no clerics (pally sand rangers opened the runes), my point don;t get caught up in we need 2 fighters a rogue a cleric and a wizz, it's just not so I recently was invited to a party to run S-T-K, I was playing my 5th lvl rogue, and jumped at the chance, all those traps at the end. Well after accepting the invite, I checked out the party, there were 2 other lvl 3 rogues, for a total of 3 rogues, 2 rangers and 1 paladin with my rogue being the only one above 4th lvl. No tanks, no Cleric, and no casters. I politely told the leader that they didn't really need a 3rd rogue, and suggested that they look for a tank or cleric, and left that party. did they take the advice? I don't know. Maybe they were successful. I just didn't feel it was a party that stood much hope. Knowing your quest is very helpful in putting together a party to run it.
It is also important to be strong as the leader. I've seen far too many parties fall apart or get divided by a non-responsive or weak leader.your right there but this is more of a problem in the low to mid lvls If you are the leader, you need to dictate the direction you wish the party to go. If you don't know the quest and wish another member of the party to be the guide, indicate to the party who the party is to follow. If you don't do this, sometimes it happens on it's own, but often you get 2 or 3 people fighting for control of the party and soon you have people running in very different directions and into trouble. I was in a quest I've done before, but due to a breakdown we got separated. I was trying to use my map to get back to everyone, but there was a arrow pointing to 1 person in the North, 1 pointing to the south, one east and one west. I was lost, and confused.
The leader needs to make clear the strategies to be played out. Are we fighting in the door, are we sneaking around, what/how do you want to have happen. But above all you need to listen to your party as well, and communicate.

Tanks- Tanks, you have a very important job to preform, Kill. The primary function of a tank on quests is to crush the enemy, thus protecting the party.umm not really first we need to understand what a tank is vs DPS melee , Tank most times means High Ac/Hp able to withstand a great deal of damage and argo(decent save help but that's more about builds) a Imtim-tank will hardly kill anything that grp you were talking about w/ 3 rogues could of put a imtim-tank to good use, basically you use the intim ability to grab argo and then the rogues can get full backstab on the mob while the tank has enough AC and HP to stand upright and keep spaming intim, that can be one fuction of a fighter or you could DPS (Damage per swing or second) and just be able to kill quickly, you could be a tatics fighter and use trip and stunning blow to help cc mobs lots of different things can be done by fighters barbs and pallys Having run a dwarven tank, I know the power possessed by the Tank characters. A near invulnerability, massive mega kill power, make you sometimes forget that the rest of your party might not be so invulnerable, and can be quite squishy. So while you run into the middle of the room, all the enemy run around you and take out several members of your party before you can get aggro. Been there, Done that. You need to remember to protect your party, and sometimes that means shield blocking at a doorway and let the rangers shoot arrows over you. Don't get too far ahead of your party, you never know what mess you could get into,this is great advice for other new players, like that you firgue out the door trik works better w/ burnning hands and later cone of cold and if you are out of your healers range, don't blame them for your death.

Clerics- There are many ways to play a cleric,yep but for this I will use what I've observed to be what most people Expect from a cleric. this is a huge problem w/ new players and old, people expect that a other player will protect,buff,heal ,ie baby sit them, every class can use a heal pot, rangers bards and pally's can use wands most rogues can as well, don't get casught up in we need a cleric just be prepared The main role of a cleric in a party is to keep the party alive. most people expect that a cleric will heal them in battle. They also hope for buffs as well. that is not to say that a cleric can't do or use other things and spells. I've built my cleric to be a buffing healing cleric. I tried at first to be a battle cleric, but found that I would be too caught up in a battle to notice that a team member needed me. If you are a battle cleric, and don't intend to be the healer, you should let your party know this before entering the quest. I was running my dwarf tank, and was trying a new weapons arrangement, so I was checking the kill score just to see if there was an improvement in my kill count. I personally had taken out +70 enemies to the Party avg of 20, I slipped off a ledge, and got cornered. by the time it was over, I had 5 HP left. I asked for a heal. Nothing. I asked again, and the cleric who had almost full mana said no, as it would be a waste of her mana. next big battle took her out, because I was killed almost instantly, and was unable to stop the onslaught. If the cleric plays the healer, and keeps the tanks going, the tanks will keep you alive. also remember, if you are not attacking, you draw much less aggro.not sure why she wouldn't heal you maybe she thought you ran ahead maybe she was upset that you weren;t drinking pots, I don't know. this is why I always make sure that I have heal pots, remove curse pots, you should always be prepared to use them

Sorcerers and Wizards- You can be very effective in helping the tanks, either though Crowd Control, or attack spells. Just remember you don't do any good if you are dead. You, at your best, are soft and squishy,you be surprised of the cons of most casters , most casters worth thier salt have pretty good hp or are "twitchy enough that they can get by and your bones go crunch with one swing of a ogre club. Remember this as you run past your tanks. choose your spells wisely. getting aggro on several monsters at once can be deadly, and can make it difficult for a Tank to protect you. I've often seen monsters run right by my tank to get at the caster. Strategy is your best friend. Use doorways and tight spaces to your advantage. Put the firewall in the door so the tanks can hold the monsters in it. Scorching ray is a great spell, but useless against Blackbone Skellies, who are immune. once you find out that they are immune, casting it 6 more times isn't going to change that fact. [COLOR="red"]that's always funny maybe he was new too?Fire monsters usually are not affected by fire spells, and in some cases can be healed by them. Try something else. Mana managment is also key. if you run out, you become almost useless. save shrines when you can. Don't just hit the shrine as soon as you see it, yes you may be down to 70% of your total SP but you still have 70% to use. Also, if there are 3 tanks that are working 1 monster and they are not having problems with it, let the tanks take care of the monster. Sword swings don't run out, SP does. I can't count how many times my scorching ray doesn't leave my hands until the monster is already dead, wasting SP.


Rogues- your job is harder to define. you are the trap finder/door opener. But you are a squishy.this isn;t set in stone either....you will be surprised of how many Dwarf rogues w/ 250-300 hp you find running around stormreach There are many quests where I'm glad we have a rogue to disarm traps or to pick a lock. However playing these characters, I often find the role difficult to play. I feel the need to contribute more to the party, and that the few traps don't really justify my being there. This leads to my rushing into battles where I often get hurt bad. Some rogues are built strong and tough, others not so much. remember you can't warn of traps when your stuck in between a giants toes. know what you are capable of and play accordingly.

All others- know what you are capable of and play accordingly keeping in mind that you must protect the team above all else.
good advice there I find that the more the party talks to each other the better it is more times than not


Chris

again I'm curious what your highest lvl is and what server do you play on?

cdemeritt
02-02-2008, 12:05 PM
Forgive my late night ramblings. I was not trying to tell anyone how to play. and yes there are far too many combinations to define any one class to do any one thing. I was very upset when I read on another thread the following comment


I think I need to tell you what "job" an arcane caster should be performing while in a party, his "job" is to buff fighters, do CC and to single shot high end mobs (because his dps vs. a single target is far greater than any combat class in the game) and from time to time yes he can drop a firewall to assist in DPS vs. large groups of monsters

This to me is a bad mindset. I tried to here just give general guideline to help newer users. Not every caster is squishy, Sorry for my implying they all are, but if you are a low lvl human sorc, with a AC of 17, 40hp, and 2 offensive spells, is your place really in front of the 140hp, AC30, dual bastard sword wielding tank? and if you think you can do it, and run into the middle of the room, and get killed, do you think it is the clerics fault?

Arianrhod, I agree with you 100%. Communication is the real key here. too many time communication is lacking, and the leaders intentions are not well communicated. If you want a fast run with no optionals, make this know beforehand, it can save lots of problems later.


Some of the most fun quests I've run were with 4 rogues, a paladin and a fighter. Or 6 human casters. Or all rogues.
If you drop any group without a cleric, you are seriously cheating yourself out of some great groups. People tend to play better without a cleric, and (no offence) but the players that avoid cleric-less groups tend to be the weakest players. Sure some groups can fail, but to assume a group sucks because they lack certain classes is a mistake. Ive been in horrid groups composed of 1 caster, 1 cleric, 1 rogue, 1 paladin, 1 barbarian, 1 fighter (arguably the most balanced group you can have).

I'll agree to this too, even if it didn't come across well. I joined a group of 5 casters for a sorrowdusk run, it was great, scorching rays went everywhere, we crushed all we saw. But with some missions, it is near impossible to finish without certain classes. Does this mean I bail on most missions because they don't meet my expectations, no. I do try to run most, but It would be nice if the leader puts some thought into how they put their groups together, based on the mission they want to run. don't invite all Lvl 1 players to do the Von series, thats just not thinking. Also think about your max cap too. I wanted end reward for WW and although I was a Lvl 6 I got a invite to do it, then got yelled at by 3 people in the party because I'd power level them. I left, No sweat for me, but they should have said something to the party leader instead of yelling at me.



As for your "party-leader and leadership" opinion, again I disagree. The party leader's role is to gather up to 6 players (or 12) and choose the first quest on the list. Should they be able to lead the group? Maybe, but nothing says another can't be the leader even if they don't have a little star.


Ok, on this one, If I get into the party and I have 3 people telling me to go in 3 different directions, I'll defer to the party leader. If there is someone else more qualified to "lead" the group, then they should make it know that they know what to do, and if they party leader wants to let them take charge , let the party know who to follow. yes the "little star" is meaningless, but when the person who can guide is being drowned out by people who don't know what they are doing, it should be up to the party lead to say hey wait a minute, lets listen to this person. This comment was mainly to point out that when multiple people fight for the leadership position, often things go bad. I've seen many groups fall into line behind a "leader" automatically, but not always.


I think in the end what I was trying to say should simply boil down to is:

know your strengths
know your weaknesses
play accordingly. don't try to be something your not.
LISTEN to your party members.
Put the Team above yourself. defend the team.
LISTEN to your Party members.


Chris

Kalari
02-03-2008, 11:23 AM
I do believe listening is the key but I think the author did have a slight point with Leadership at least when it comes to taking new players under your wing. Now im all for fun and adventure but even after a week im still learning the schematics of the game. It does not help if im in a group and have four leaders trying to tell me to go left, no go right, cast this, no cast that. Most of the time the only outcome that brings is a dead Kalari. Now ive had excellent groups who have taken me to dangerous places and covered me good, yesterday a group on Gwylns travel I think its called even brought in another caster to show me the ropes so that I didnt have the whole party trying to give me orders at once. I dont mind the "hey haste me or intelligence me request." I dont particulary like when the Leader (guy with the star) will say Kalari you are to go left and web the door, only to have two others chime in "no come this way." Its always been my thinking to listen to the person who leads the group first. Now I try to be smart and stay in the back unless another caster is mobbed or unless im told to run up and flame everything in the path. I also try to stay behind as many meat shields as I can, but it is not easy for a new player to group without a definate leader because were learning what we need to do as well as trying out new spells new combat stradegies. I fully appreciate anyone who tries to help I just get really confused when its all coming at once.

Nixxmaster
03-06-2008, 08:34 PM
There are things I do and do not agree with in your posts and I am going to focus mainly on the caster section since they are normally what I play,

First of all any character and any class can be built to perform many or specific tasks. Clerics can be offensive casters, crowd conrolers, main tanks, and of course healers it is not that little pictre left of th persons name that says what they are you have to ask them. A well built character designed to do a task and who does it well can be most anything although of course there are idiots like lvl 12 Nuke Sorcerers who decide they can tank a behoder with a staff (yes I have seen this). Most classes can be built to play the roles of tank, healer, trap monkey (multiclassed rouges), caster, and DPS of many kinds. I've built casters who aren't squishy at all my main is a 16 wizard in +5 mith chain and the Gainthold Tor shield sitting on a 45-50 AC add Displacement Jump and a general direction of the quest and thats better then alot of others.
Long story short, don't discriminate against not pure and basic builds.

I did not read all the above posts so sorry for any already posted deas.

Edit: also another huge point is self sufficiency is the key building a lvl 16 dwarf barbarian with all the toughness feats minos legends completely raged up and a +6 con item and grtr false life with no ability to heal your 700-800hp besides a cleric is IMHO an absolute horrible mana drian build.

Another Edit: I play 2 wizards currenty one is an 8 Con Human Wizzy with enough UMD to Heal Rez he was my first character and I love him after playing an 8 con wizard for a year I have a Dwarven wizard who can cast just as well but he has a base 20 con and at lvl 16 will have 32 con (constant rage +2 Enhancment +6 item +2 tome) so I have the reflexes with the Hp :).