Rogue Respect Needed

[Oddimus]

Im sure this has been suggested in one form or another, But to you Mr & Miss Developer, Could you please make the current traps, more dangerous, "Like, If you try to zerk through my traps, it will kill you with a 90% chance." and add some traps, with the same degree of danger, Make the rogue necessary! Thats all.

[captain1z]

they said they were doing exactly that.

Trap will do more damage on hard and elite content......... but the difficulty to find and remove (or search & Disable if you will) will remain the same.


I think this may happen in MOD 6.



links or additional info/ corrections to what Ive said.........................


anyone?

[Samadhi]

Im sure this has been suggested in one form or another, But to you Mr & Miss Developer, Could you please make the current traps, more dangerous, "Like, If you try to zerk through my traps, it will kill you with a 90% chance." and add some traps, with the same degree of danger, Make the rogue necessary! Thats all.

Odd, first, I am really not trying to attack your idea - but in all honesty I believe that this could cause significant disadvantages to rogues rather than benefits.

Rogues are about a lot more than being trapmonkeys. Making traps more difficult to find and disable (to hurt multi-class rogues) and traps more deadly (so it is more necessary to disable them) is only going to decrease the fun of rogue builds; IMO.

Currently, it is very possible to design a rogue to handle most trapmonkey responsibilities but who is also capable of being extremely useful in combat as well - this is the heart of the rogue who, like the bard, excels at versatility.

I know full well the discrimination often directed to both rogues and rangers; often stemming from "specialized" builds that lack the full versatility to be successful regardless of the demands of the quest. Don't get me wrong - it can be quite silly sometimes when a perfectly good rogue is not allowed into a quest by the ignorant - but there have been plenty of previous threads about that and we will hopefully keep yours to the point.

However, if we make trapmonkeying MORE necessary - than the rogue really loses out. They will have less versatility in their build designs. This will make them even LESS desirable for "non-trap" quests and, for myself at least, considerably less fun to play even in "trap-heavy" quests. Is that really the direction we want this class to take?

[Hendrik]

True, traps will be doing more damage and they should do even more - they should be feared.

But until they are made to really hurt the party, insta-kill, or other evil things, people will hardly ever wait the few seconds for a ROG to disable a trap.

If you really want your ROG to shine and provide a benefit to the party, join a Guild of like minded players that can show patience and the willingness for all party members to add to the successful completion of an adventure.

[captain1z]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133255



10th bullet point down..... in general section.

[Samadhi]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133255



10th bullet point down..... in general section.

Thanks Cap - it's not about misinformation - I still don't think it's a good direction for the game to take - peace.

[MrCow]

The change to trap damage has been put on Risia (its about 1.5x more damage on hard that it currently is on hard and 2.0x more damage on elite than it currently is on elite). Also, this includes traps that aren't disabled through trap boxes (such as the lightning room in The Pit).

[Arianrhod]

They could add a new class of traps that slows characters (permanent until rest) - that might get a few people waiting for the rogue to disable ;) Another possibility would be traps that, if not disabled, cause lengthy detours (floor falls through, cave-in blocks passage, etc.). Just a few ways you could give even a "rushing" party incentive to a) bring a rogue and b) wait for them to disable traps instead of just running through. Instakill traps have their uses, but too often in high level quests that just translates to more work/expense for the cleric rather than more respect for the rogue.

[CDevil]

While I agree that Rogues need some pumping up, I think a better method would be to expand their capabilities:

1. Give them climbing ability

2. Improve stealth

3. Improve sneak attack ability and damage

4. Give them the ability to actually STEAL things

I think working in these areas would make some SERIOUS improvement in rogue value to a party, vice making them one-hit wonders with the trap issue.

[xanvar]

I've always like the idea of having traps that could insta-kill if a save was failed. Some of the best PnP games I've run have had characters permantely buried under a huge stone slab, a necromancer that preserved beholder eye stalks and used them as traps, long fall onto spike pit so on and so forth. I don't how that would translate over into DDO however. At high levels it doesn't really hurt to die its more of an annoyance. After one run if its common knowledge that there is a death trap people will just carry more rez scrolls. Now if you make a falling slab that if triggered could kill and block the path effectively causing a failure of the quest making you start over that might work better. I don't really see this as necessary in all dungeons but having a couple of quests that are pretty much Rogue required would be nice in my book. I'm not talking pure rogue either, I have see some good wiz rogue and cleric rogue combos. And don't let me forget Batman everyones favorite multipurpose kick arse guy.

[GlitterKill]

Odd, first, I am really not trying to attack your idea - but in all honesty I believe that this could cause significant disadvantages to rogues rather than benefits.

Rogues are about a lot more than being trapmonkeys. Making traps more difficult to find and disable (to hurt multi-class rogues) and traps more deadly (so it is more necessary to disable them) is only going to decrease the fun of rogue builds; IMO.

Currently, it is very possible to design a rogue to handle most trapmonkey responsibilities but who is also capable of being extremely useful in combat as well - this is the heart of the rogue who, like the bard, excels at versatility.

I know full well the discrimination often directed to both rogues and rangers; often stemming from "specialized" builds that lack the full versatility to be successful regardless of the demands of the quest. Don't get me wrong - it can be quite silly sometimes when a perfectly good rogue is not allowed into a quest by the ignorant - but there have been plenty of previous threads about that and we will hopefully keep yours to the point.

However, if we make trapmonkeying MORE necessary - than the rogue really loses out. They will have less versatility in their build designs. This will make them even LESS desirable for "non-trap" quests and, for myself at least, considerably less fun to play even in "trap-heavy" quests. Is that really the direction we want this class to take?

First, do you have any high level rogues? The OP has some good suggestions and I think that every person out there with a toon that is mainly rogue would agree. When I play my rogue I get passed over for another fighter or caster for the extra firepower since the traps can either be avoided or zerged without fear.

[Angelus_dead]

Im sure this has been suggested in one form or another, But to you Mr & Miss Developer, Could you please make the current traps, more dangerous, "Like, If you try to zerk through my traps, it will kill you with a 90% chance." and add some traps, with the same degree of danger, Make the rogue necessary!
That is a very very bad way to improve game balance. You're asking for dungeons to be made so that there are certain points where you simply can't go forward without a rogue. Disarming traps should be only a minor part of a rogue's value- they need to be useful even when there are no traps around.

PS. Adding your suggestion would increase the number of rog1/wiz13 and rog2/wiz14 builds, without really helping "true" rogues.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

First, do you have any high level rogues? The OP has some good suggestions and I think that every person out there with a toon that is mainly rogue would agree. When I play my rogue I get passed over for another fighter or caster for the extra firepower since the traps can either be avoided or zerged without fear.

Well, I can't speak for rogues being passed over for groups... Like rangers, a properly played rogue will be a huge asset to a party, and a poorly played one is a huge drain on a party. So it generally depends on the players involved for me.

But the very last thing I want the game direction to be going in is the "You can't proceed unless you have a rogue/whatever in the party". I realize for some people part of their gameplay enjoyment comes from putting a "proper" party together, and going on the dungeon crawling experience with just the right type of characters... I'm not one of them. The very last thing I want to spend my gaming time on is sitting around waiting for just the right characters to join a group so we can proceed.

I know this discussion has been beat into the ground numerous times.... But I feel it's important to put opposing viewpoints out there so that the game direction doesn't fall in line with the "required character direction".

[QuantumFX]

Increasing trap difficulties does only one thing - it makes a 2 Rogue/14 Wizard better than a pure rogue. Rogues would be better off with dev time being put into making stealth useful, implementing touch AC and making the skill enhancements less costly. (ex combine spot/search together and OL/DD together.)

[MysticTheurge]

Increasing trap difficulties does only one thing - it makes a 2 Rogue/14 Wizard better than a pure rogue. Rogues would be better off with dev time being put into making stealth useful, implementing touch AC and making the skill enhancements less costly. (ex combine spot/search together and OL/DD together.)

... adding more high-level rogue abilities, adding more skills, improving the uses for skills we have, making traps a bit more random, adding more rogue-ish feats, implementing skill tricks ...

The list could probably go on and on. Making traps harder to make "rogues necessary" is a terrible idea on so many levels.

[Kaldaka]

LOL

True rogue love??

Yeah right!!

My favorite is the ranger 13/rogue 1 in my guild can SPOT the traps while the straight rogue cannot (high WIS FTW).

Just seems kinda dumb to me that currently the spot DC for a lot of elite traps is 35.
17(maxxed rank) + 13(item) + 4(GH, if you can get it) = 34, and since most don't have a high WIS and don't typically run around with prayer/skill boosts ALWAYS on, a lot of straight rogues are SOL. At that point I guess its Evasion FTW LOL.

I guess there's always the Head of Good Fortune, But I like my Bloodstone too much!!!

[Coldin]

LOL

True rogue love??

Yeah right!!

My favorite is the ranger 13/rogue 1 in my guild can SPOT the traps while the straight rogue cannot (high WIS FTW).

Just seems kinda dumb to me that currently the spot DC for a lot of elite traps is 35.
17(maxxed rank) + 13(item) + 4(GH, if you can get it) = 34, and since most don't have a high WIS and don't typically run around with prayer/skill boosts ALWAYS on, a lot of straight rogues are SOL. At that point I guess its Evasion FTW LOL.

I guess there's always the Head of Good Fortune, But I like my Bloodstone too much!!!

You're completely forgetting enhancements though. You can get up to at least 6 more points on any rogue, and more if you're an elf. Plus any rogue can use a wisdom potion to get a couple more points even if they did use wisdom as dump stat.


Anyway, Rogue's do need some help. Tougher traps might help a little. Allowing rogues to sneak undead and constructs, set their own traps, use UMD to activate runes, would help them a lot more.

[Samadhi]

First, do you have any high level rogues? The OP has some good suggestions and I think that every person out there with a toon that is mainly rogue would agree. When I play my rogue I get passed over for another fighter or caster for the extra firepower since the traps can either be avoided or zerged without fear.

I actually had - at one point - two capped lvl 14 rogues. The trapmonkey (28int) rogue got deleted and the survivalist rogue (10lvls pure; soon to be 12) is still around. So yes; I have played high level rogues - and would like to play more. But honestly, if I build another rogue, I think it more likely that I will not even put points into search or disable device. Disabling traps isn't fun and doesn't add anything to the game. If I build a third rogue, I think he would be pure sneak attack machine with UMD and lock picking.

My question for you is - someone in this thread suggested "instakill" traps. Do you really ever want to be at the point that a rogue is MANDATORY to complete a quest? Sorry, but I like all my characters - not just the remaining rogue. This shouldn't be true of any class or any mission - and currently, IMO, the dev's have done an excellent job in this regard. There is no single class that is necessary for any single mission.

I really don't see why anyone would push towards changes that would make traps more necessary as trapmonkeys - but if you can provide insight beyond "easier to find groups because I will be mandatory to complete the quest" go for it.

[Drekisen]

as well are a lot of other rogue skills. If u make a reputation as a rogue that can offer a lot more than disabling traps as well as being able to do that effectively....you will get into groups okay. I find a lot of times if I am haviing a hard time getting into groups, I just start my own. A lot of times I will end up with two or three rogues along with me...lol. A group of well played rogues is pretty powerful. And that is the true power of the rogue and the bard, even if u are focused on one specific thing, you have enough to cover a lot of other aspects of that characters potential. I don't think making traps more deadly is a bad direction by any means at all. Traps should be harsh, and debilitating to the mission if they are not disarmed, otherwise what are they even thier for? I mean what would be next, take anti-magic away from beholders and hold person from casters. Water is nice, but it takes a lot more than that to live.

[Hendrik]

I actually had - at one point - two capped lvl 14 rogues. The trapmonkey (28int) rogue got deleted and the survivalist rogue (10lvls pure; soon to be 12) is still around. So yes; I have played high level rogues - and would like to play more. But honestly, if I build another rogue, I think it more likely that I will not even put points into search or disable device. Disabling traps isn't fun and doesn't add anything to the game. If I build a third rogue, I think he would be pure sneak attack machine with UMD and lock picking.

My question for you is - someone in this thread suggested "instakill" traps. Do you really ever want to be at the point that a rogue is MANDATORY to complete a quest? Sorry, but I like all my characters - not just the remaining rogue. This shouldn't be true of any class or any mission - and currently, IMO, the dev's have done an excellent job in this regard. There is no single class that is necessary for any single mission.

I really don't see why anyone would push towards changes that would make traps more necessary as trapmonkeys - but if you can provide insight beyond "easier to find groups because I will be mandatory to complete the quest" go for it.

That was my post. And it was an example, not a suggestion. And we do have traps that can insta-kill you now. And in no place did I ever mention a mandatory need for a ROG to complete a Quest.

However, has everyone forgot we do have mandatory need for specific stats/class stats to complete a Quest? There is precedent, of sorts. Not to mention there are things that cannot be reached, unless you have a ROG.

[Cold_Stele]

Maybe the answer to this all is....

Making spotting and disabling traps instant? Or significantly cut down the time it takes to do it?

Yeh, it's realistic for disabling to take time - but when that lost time makes the class superfluous cos people get impatient and just zerg through?