Hitpoints -- enough? too many?

[Averroes]

So I'm curious what everyone else thinks about hitpoints.

How many are enough for a given class and role? What sort of stat or fear or enhancement sacrifices are you willing to make for more hitpoints? When do more hitpoints become overkill? How many hitpoints do each of your characters have?

Are there any quests or fights where having over or under a certain number of hitpoints is especially valuable or detrimental?

Is there a fight in DDO that is simply a test of hitpoints? (There are certainly fights that test saves or DPS or even AC -- take down the demon queen without ranged weapons or spells for the purest test of AC in the game right now)




I ask because I consistently find myself suggesting (both on these forums and in-game) that a given build is giving up too much for more hitpoints. I only have toughness on one character (my intimitank, and he isn't a dorf), and only my barbarian breaks 300 hitpoints (it's actually fairly hard not to with a barb...).
I have not once thought about trying to work in more hitpoints on my barb, even with his 10 AC, don't regret the 6 starting con that my intimitank rolled with, and think my spellsword does fine with 184.

Here's my breakdown by character, including standard gear, no temporary hitpoints:
14w -- 170
12f/2p -- 250
14bbn -- 324 (unraged)
12n/1f/1r -- 214
10s/2p/2r -- 184
14c -- 198
14p -- no idea. been shelved since shortly after mod4.

[Geonis]

My thought is that the huge (400+ or multiple Toughness feats taken) HP builds are popular because they allow for survival with much less skill and planning. I have a primary melee Paladin MC, that was at ~200 HPs for a long time and never had any issues even with a mid 30s AC. I just recently specced out Weapon Focus for Toughness and the enhancements and sit close to 300 HPs, and since have never come anywhere close to dying.

[DemonMage]

I aim for 200 on any character, some are harder than others to get to it, but that's my goal usually. Lets you survive disintegrates and makes it easier to survive the damage between Heal cooldowns in bad situations.

[jacobzzz]

casters should aim for 180+, con really should be their second main stat, AC builds around 250, clerics 250, meatshields 450, rogues 200, rangers 230... just my opinion tho

[sirgog]

IMO 200 is a very important number (rolling a 1/maybe other low numbers on a Disintegrate save, or in future possibly more foes with Polar Ray). Only the Abbot can one-shot a 200hp character with a damage spell IIRC (his disintegrate hits for about 350 on norm and 450 elite, and has a mean save DC too).

Higher numbers are more important for melee types, especially low-AC ones.

Myrmidral has just under 200hp and carries emergency rapid self-healing (Silver Flame pots). Will exceed 200 when I can get a +6 Con ring (or get hit with a Rage spell). Numot has about 350hp (1 toughness, all 4 enhancements, Minos Legions, no false life item as cannot currently fit it). He's often the sole survivor in near-wipe situations, due to the combination of high HP, self-healing and reasonably good AC - and after killing all the mobs, Numot can raise the others from SP :=) Charwyn has less due to being my first toon and thus being a tad gimped.

[sirgog]

...
Is there a fight in DDO that is simply a test of hitpoints? (There are certainly fights that test saves or DPS or even AC -- take down the demon queen without ranged weapons or spells for the purest test of AC in the game right now)


Do you mean the DQ fights in the preraid, or the raid itself?

If you mean the raid, surely that's a test of AC and also reflex saves.

What AC do you need to be survivable versus Lailat anyway?

[Averroes]

Do you mean the DQ fights in the preraid, or the raid itself?

If you mean the raid, surely that's a test of AC and also reflex saves.

What AC do you need to be survivable versus Lailat anyway?

I mean the raid.

And yeah, I suppose it does test reflex saves -- although only at the same time as AC for the final 15 or 20% of her health. Before that of course you're either fighting her or dodging blade barriers, but not both.

And I believe she needs to roll a 20 or close to it to hit my AC fighter on normal and hard, which puts her attack bonus somewhere around +40-+45.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

HP's depend on what class you are.

My barbarian has 389 unraged, no toughness feats. More than enough when he gets going.

Cleric has 230 I think, he stands at the back and kills/heals. Plenty.

Paladin has 300, AC high 50's, and I always feel this isnt enough.

My casters only level 9 at the mo, so not sure what he'll end up with. He has just shy of 100 right now.

The barbarian is frontline offense, he needs them, with his 11 AC, the cleric shouldnt get hit, either because hes at the back healing or oneshot killing. The paladin has high AC, so he shouldnt get hit often...but he does, unfortunately. My caster is buffed to the nines 24/7, displacement, blur when that wears off, stoneskin, greater heroism, jump, resists, so he should be protected from damage rather than soaking it up.

HP's, IMO, are less to do with survivability than playstyle and gear. Heavy fort items, knowing when you can throw that fireball etc.

The only one of my characters Im iffy about is my paladin. Yeah, he has a good AC, but he still gets hit often.

[Strakeln]

It depends on your playstyle and build. Hit points are not really needed if you can either not get hit, kill before something gets close enough to hit, or kill before any significant damage can be done.

My characters tend to have less HP than people think are required. I think the most shocking overall is my ranger - I use her as a front-line combatant (TWF) but rarely die and am frequently the last one standing. High AC, saves, self healing, and twitchy playstyle all contribute to this. Yet... if I tell people her HP total, they won't let her into a group. It's not like I couldn't do something to help her out... she has no GFL item, no minos helm, and only wears a +4 con item... but it's all she needs.

So, without further ado:
- 28pt Dorf Barb: 290 unraged, 350-400 depending on how many rages going
- 32pt Drow Sorc: 136 with an IFL item and minos helm. Not that you'd ever get close enough to find out.
- 32pt Elf Ranger: 154 with no FL item, no helm. Never gets hit.
- 32pt Dorf Cleric: 322 :eek: (one tough cleric right here, let me tell you)
- 32pt Human Bard: (only 12th level right now) - should have about 160-180 when done.

Would I change any of this? If I could fit a toughness feat in on my barb, I'd consider it. I would have liked to see my sorc at 150 instead of 130. Ranger is fine, but I do need to get a GFL item on her to surivive the occasional disintigrate that I roll a 1 on. Cleric is awesome, with his self-healing capabilities he is more or less unkillable.

[Turial]

HP is also a matter of heal-ability. Forged that don't have healers friend or a caster watching their backs would do well to have more HP as it gives a nice buffer between heals. Humans that have taken improved healing can get away with a few less HP though you would want a heavy fort item and enough HP to avoid one shots, 200 HP is a good standing point for non-front liners. Barbs for the most part should be good with what they get naturally and through rages. Fighters do well in the high 200 to 300 range.

Pallies are the hardest ones to find a good HP number for. They can have decent AC but can lack the nice, cheap AC and toughness enhancements of fighters. If you could reach the upper 300's without sacrificing to many feats and item slots you should be good. Though a human pally could do well at about 300.

[Gorstag]

Ok, From my perspective it should be roughly as follows. (At level 14 of course)

Wizard/sorc- 200 hps minimum
cleric- 275 minimum
palidan - 350 minimum
rogue/bard - 250 minimum
ranger - 250 minimum
fighter S&B - 450 minimum
fighter TWF -400 minimum
fighter thw - 450 minimum
barabarian same as specced fighter(Though with any fighter/barb I try to shoot for 500 hps unbuffed)


Thoguh, this is merely how I see things, others may seem this is abit high currently, but you did as for our opinions.

My toons hps to class are as follows.
Domidar 14th sorc - 246
Domia 1r/13 ranger - 249
Drambow 2r/3p/9f - 459 TWF
Sotek 11f/3p -508 S&B high ac turtle build.
dharley 1f/12rouge 339 twf dps rogue still a level to go with them.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Gorstag, you're numbers at interesting. Not a bad reference, but a little confusing. For example, Cleric and Ranger who share the same HD have different HP minimums. How? Are Clerics supposed to have more CON than Rangers? I do agree with most of your numbers, though. The closer to the front lines you want to be, the more HP you need.

Level 14 HP by role in party, aim for:
180+ Caster (Sorc, Wiz)
220+ Rearline ranged (Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Rogue)
250+ Secondary Melee (Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Rogue)
350+ AC Tank (Fighter, Paly)
400+ DPS Melee (Fighter, Barb)

[brshelton]

I aim for 300+ on a melee build my ranger sits at 361 unraged atm.

[brshelton]

Gorstag, you're numbers at interesting. Not a bad reference, but a little confusing. For example, Cleric and Ranger who share the same HD have different HP minimums. How? Are Clerics supposed to have more CON than Rangers? I do agree with most of your numbers, though. The closer to the front lines you want to be, the more HP you need.

Level 14 HP by role in party, aim for:
180+ Caster (Sorc, Wiz)
220+ Rearline ranged (Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Rogue)
250+ Secondary Melee (Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Rogue)
350+ AC Tank (Fighter, Paly)
400+ DPS Melee (Fighter, Barb)

......sigh....... secondary melee ranger be sure not to say that to my face :P

[adamkatt]

i argee decent hp is a good thing although i may go a bit overboard..

i have...

14 paly 400 wo conitem with 430
14 ranger 350
14 wiz 228
14 sorc 200 soon to also be 228
8/1 rogue/fighter 200

[Mad_Bombardier]

......sigh....... secondary melee ranger be sure not to say that to my face :PDon't even start with me... I love Rangers. But, part of playing a Ranger is recognizing your strengths and weaknesses. Yes, Rangers can achieve more HP, but do not get class Toughness enhancements. No Toughness enhancements + a d8 HD and you generally get lower total HP numbers.

That said, there is nothing wrong with being a secondary melee. It means you recognize your low AC or HP and fight accordingly. Heck, my DPS Barbarian is a secondary melee. I let others get aggro and set up, then he knocks 'em down. If you choose to use a shield and have AC 45+ (with your higher HP value), then by all means put yourself in the Tank or DPS Melee category. I was just offering a general outline. :)

[brshelton]

Don't even start with me... I love Rangers. But, part of playing a Ranger is recognizing your strengths and weaknesses. Yes, Rangers can achieve more HP, but do not get class Toughness enhancements. No Toughness enhancements + a d8 HD and you get lower total HP numbers.

That said, there is nothing wrong with being a secondary melee. It means you recognize your low AC or HP and fight accordingly. Heck, my DPS Barbarian is a secondary melee. I let others get aggro and set up, then he knocks 'em down. If you choose to use a shield and have AC 45+, then put yourself in the Tank category (with your higher HP value). I was just offering a general outline. :)

i hit a 40-45 duel wielding Deathnip and high burst axes with 360 hp :P i call tank

[Slayer918]

Sotek 11f/3p -508 S&B high ac turtle build.


If you have a true high AC (55-60 standing around town), then you dont need more then 300 let alone 500...

My paladin runs around with 288, 58 standing AC, 25/25/20 Saves (add +4 to those versus spells and another +5 if I had boots of the innocence), 42 intimidate (hits everything but reaver elite on a 2), and that HP is an almost perfect sweet spot... Why? A) you don't need more then that. B) 288 is fairly cheap (12 starting con, 1 feat, 12 APs essentially)... I don't want to know what you spent to get 500...

My fighter has 400 exactly (TWF, DPS, build)
My Sorc has 214

[sigtrent]

I look at it from a different angle.....

How many HP you have and what your defenses are determines how you play in combat.

My bard has around 140HP at level 14. He mostly buffs the party, throws out disco balls/holds and takes pot shots with a kopesh or heavy repeater. He rarely pulls much agro and when he does he hits diplomacy or throws a hold or puts on displacement and runds through the disco balls over and over. He does fine although he has to be carefull of traps and area damage spells.

My 14 DPS rogue has around 180 or so. He zips around at high speeds rushing in for a quick kill and when his HP start dropping he finds a way to get out of the line of fire and heal up. He wears fearsome armor so if he draws unexpected agro it usualy sluffs off before he dies. Since he takes almost no damage from traps or area spells he only needs to watch melee or archer agro. With melee I can usualy physicaly dodge, with archers I have to go and hide until someone can pull agro on them.

My main is a fighter/ranger/cleric who only just topped 300 after getting the minos helm. I'd like another 50 or so but he can self heal pretty well and can cast Mas Aid for bonus HP before fights. He gets by but has issues tanking if there isn't a good healer in the group. He does have a good trip and uses that to help mitigate damage.

My cleric/paladin (11/1) has around 140 or so. Could have more but missing some key HP items. Anyhow she hangs back and heals, but then goes in for the kill on easy targets. She has to be carefull not to pull to much agro but also wears fearsome to shed when things get hairy.

My Fighter/Wizard 1/13 has around 180. He tends to just kill anything that agros quite quickly and can layer on spell defenses like crazy so his HP are only an issue for ray spells and the like or if he gets cought "with his spells down".

Most of my high CON characters are low level so I can't speak too much of the 300+ range in builds. But I do well with my mostly 100-200 crew of high level characters because most of them have spells or healing to augment thier defenses or they are simply good at running away when nessesary.

I think the characters you have to have really good HP on are DPS barbarians/fighters or Intimi-tank types who are trying to draw agro on themselves. "Normal" tanks vary but I think what kind of healing you have is a big factor. A good healer backing you up and 300 is probably good enough. Weaker healing or no healing and you really want that 400+ so you can last a tough fight with little or no backup.

[Jaywade]

Ok, From my perspective it should be roughly as follows. (At level 14 of course)

Wizard/sorc- 200 hps minimum
cleric- 275 minimum
palidan - 350 minimum
rogue/bard - 250 minimum
ranger - 250 minimum
fighter S&B - 450 minimum
fighter TWF -400 minimum
fighter thw - 450 minimum
barabarian same as specced fighter(Though with any fighter/barb I try to shoot for 500 hps unbuffed)



I think this is a very good guide, other thing I would change is the first one if you go dwarf you should shoot for a 300 hp caster (which is a ton of fun to play btw), bascially speaking if you go dwarf you should add at least a 100 hp to these totals

[KiwiPhil889]

... I've been playign around with this question a bit myself,on my intimitank. Why?? because i wanted to get a rough idea of how many HP's i needed to survive so i could spend enhancements elsewhere (toughness yanno). Ok,its a 10F/4P dorf. AC varies,between 46 ish to 56 ish, depends on situation but AC values remain roughly the same in the diff situation reruns.

That all being said?? His HP pool has varied between 410 ish to 310 ish. Funnily enough?? there wasn't a lot of noticeable difference,although i should prolly ask the clerics opinion on this. 300 seemed to be the break mark. The only time hes gone down lately?? happened (so fast) in feast or famine and the bad guys rolled a whole lotta 20's..bastids..but it happens.

Generally,50AC and over 310 HPs has seemed more than enough playing an Intimitank,but for peace of mind?? i'm keeping him around 350.(oops i also carry a couple of jungle cloaks,not much healing but it all adds up,plus wands)

Cheers,

[Fallout]

HP is important but too many HP will reach a point of diminishing returns. Unless your character is designed to be a meathshield, putting feats/enhacements into HP means you're neglecting on other things.

[EinarMal]

My TWF Bard has about 220 and that is plenty for my playstyle. So I disagree that a minimum of 250 is needed for Bards to be a front line melee character. Fearsome+stoneskin+displacement+diplomacy+not being an idiot works ok as well.

It really depends on the player, build, and how you want to play the game you can't put an absolute number on it. To me anything with 200+ hit points and some defensive abilities with AC or spells seems to be enough at the moment if you can manage agro and play smart. You can't be the main tank and get sight agro though, for that you would need more hit points, or diplomacy to switch the agro off to the cleric/sorc :)

[EinarMal]

Gorstag, you're numbers at interesting. Not a bad reference, but a little confusing. For example, Cleric and Ranger who share the same HD have different HP minimums. How? Are Clerics supposed to have more CON than Rangers? I do agree with most of your numbers, though. The closer to the front lines you want to be, the more HP you need.

Level 14 HP by role in party, aim for:
180+ Caster (Sorc, Wiz)
220+ Rearline ranged (Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Rogue)
250+ Secondary Melee (Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Rogue)
350+ AC Tank (Fighter, Paly)
400+ DPS Melee (Fighter, Barb)

Bards can get by with less hit points as a secondary melee than Rangers and probably Rogues since you can cast constant displacement (that is hard to do from scrolls even for the Rogue). Plus, you are ignoring self healing, as a Bard I can UMD heal scrolls for 110 "extra" hit points, and cast cure critical for another 70 instantly (pretty much). So do I have 220 hit points or 290 or 400? That makes battle clerics/bards tougher than your average 230 hit point character.

Without access to toughness enhancements you pretty much have to make due with what you got....

[Mad_Bombardier]

My TWF Bard has about 220 and that is plenty for my playstyle. So I disagree that a minimum of 250 is needed for Bards to be a front line melee character. Fearsome+stoneskin+displacement+diplomacy+not being an idiot works ok as well.Hurray for "not being an idiot." That is the best buff of all! I just wish it wasn't a self-only buff. :D

[EinarMal]

Hurray for "not being an idiot." That is the best buff of all! I just wish it wasn't a self-only buff. :D

Seriously who hasn't played with someone who could have 3000 hit points and still be the first to die? :D

[vainangel]

I wonder if the base off the HP convo is based on a desire to be very 'Hulk Smash'.

Rangers, Bards, Sorcerers, Mages, Rouges ...are not supposed to have high HP. Rangers and Rouges are supposed to use thier brains to measure a situation to survive. The casters and bards have tools that could allow them to survive a decent amount without ever pulling a blade.

I have noticed a horrible habit of people creating the 'catch all' character. A caster that has over 200 hp....yeah if they are hitting past lvl 15. Unless someone is eating tomes for Con or lessens an important Stat for the class just to beable to RUSH in and kill and hope to survive the 30 second battle. Then clickie heal.

Why not start developing Team Mentality and let the Casters be squishy and the fighters be on the front line.

As for Rangers, they have alot of tools to survive as long as you don't treat them like a fighter.

but that is just me. I am old school PnP DM, love the way DDO plays, but wish there were more with a PnP mentality. So what if my caster has a 8 Con, His Chr, Int, Wis are all where they should be and my spell power and my high save rate keep me alive!

[Unless the party does not see the Orcs rushing me because I just shocked them. Then I die. Yo Barbarian and/or Fighter...If the monster passes you and heads toward your Healers and Casters...you follow, not keep running down the hall.]

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yes, some of the high HP discussion is from people who solo or zerg. However, most of it is the desire not to die. Yes, you play smart. Yes, you dodge attacking monsters. But, nobody's perfect and sometimes damage is taken. For example, high level ogres and trolls have a 3 attack combo that can inflict 120+ points of damage (non-crit). If your caster has less than 120 HP, you're dead. So, there is a minimum number of HP required just to survive a basic attack at high levels. Granted our estimates are a bit higher than 120HP, but we're looking at those survival minimums.

[vainangel]

Oh, both of my avatars have been victim of the 'Crit hail storm'

Most of the time it is because I draw aggro when my spells/arrows hit for more than the meele attackers. This is supposed to be the time the 'tanks' stop and protect the softer party members. Like in PnP. So many players just get caught up in the right click fury.

There have been just as many times I have seen the Barbarian stop everything s/he is doing adn run toward us casters to draw the aggro. Often they are good enough to make the creatures just stop and turn to try to kill them while us casters help.

I guess this is more of a conversation on how diffrent people play and what expectations that are there for the party.

It would be great to have some type of icon system to put in the "Who" section to denote gameplay style. I think many of the concerns presented would vanish.

just me tho

[Averroes]

Ok, From my perspective it should be roughly as follows. (At level 14 of course)

Wizard/sorc- 200 hps minimum
cleric- 275 minimum
palidan - 350 minimum
rogue/bard - 250 minimum
ranger - 250 minimum
fighter S&B - 450 minimum
fighter TWF -400 minimum
fighter thw - 450 minimum
barabarian same as specced fighter(Though with any fighter/barb I try to shoot for 500 hps unbuffed)


Lots of good information in this thread -- and it's interesting to hear all the different takes on what makes a character survivable. I love "not being an idiot" -- too bad that isn't a trainable feat for most people, as they don't meet the intelligence prereq.

So now I'm curious what sort of build sacrifices must be or are being made for hitpoints... I'll start with Gorstag's list as a point of reference, and note that being a dwarf and having a toughness feat is worth 50 potential hitpoints at a cost of 10 enhancement points.

A 10-con fighter's hitpoint breakdown is potentially: 20 (heroic durability) + 140 (levels) + 10 (agents favor) + 16 toughness feat + 50 toughness enhancements = 236
If that fighter is a dwarf, potentially add another 50 from dwarven toughness (286)
Add in gear (a +6 con item and a gfl item), and that becomes 308 for a non-dwarf, 358 for a dwarf. Any hitpoints in excess of that come at a cost of build points.

Make that a ranger, and it becomes: 20 + 112 + 10 = 142 before toughness feats or items. Add a 6 con item, gfl item, and a toughness feat for 230, potentially 280 if a dwarf and using all the toughness enhancements.

For a cleric: 20 + 84 + 10 = 114. Add items and a toughness feat (or minos legens, if not a dwarf): 202, up to 252 for dwarves with all the enhancements.

For a wiz or sorc: 20 + 56 + 10 = 86. Items and toughness take that to 174, 224 if a dwarf.


So, for instance, for a fighter to get over 400 hitpoints as a dwarf with a toughness feat and 20 action points spent on toughness enhancements, you have to have a minimum of 16 constitution before gear (the 16 could include con enhancements or tomes though). For a non-dwarf, that's a minimum of 22 constitution.


Anyway, food for thought...

[xealot7]

My 13Ftr/1Pal has 485Hp unbuffed, with buffs 560ish. He has a 45AC unbuffed. That being said he is strictly DPS, ie all the slashing feats availible, imp two handed, and exotics, etc. Playing smartly kiting shield blocking etc, he has more than enough hp. But as the aggro puller, staying in combat killing before being killed, he's right on par. Also having sr19, saves, dr, fear immunity, heavy fort, etc lessens the need for hp. In my opinion, get a decent amount of hp, get everything else you need, then if you have anything left, put it back on hp.

[Aranticus]

my fighter (human) has 338 hp, my pally/rog (drow) has 316 hp, my clr (dwarf) has 256 hp and my wiz (drow) has 160 hp. hp while important is not as important as build or skill.

my ftr has sufficient hp as he do not get hit often. a melee round always starts with a trip and a stun (on different mobs possible). if the mobs are not fighting back, you do not need too much hp.

my pal/rog has a 48 ac self buffed. he can umd displacement scrolls, umd blur and stoneskin wands. his key role is to take out the casters (thats what the evasion is for). in addition, he prefers to wade a second later into combat so that he can get sneak attacks.

my clr excels in using cc spells and blade barriers, i do not melee. i do not need such a high hp

my wiz runs with 40 ac (dex build). i control agro well. i mitigate damage using stoneskin, displacement, jump and haste. what cant reach you cant damage you