pal / ranger split for 2WF with longswords

[tc12]

I wanted to build a good 2WF'er, and was looking for an alternative to a Dw Ranger. So to be a bit different, I thought I'd go dual-longswords on an elf. To improve AC and Saves (with no Dw Armor Mast or Dw Spell Def), I decided to splash pally. Original plan was 11Ranger/3Pal, but with cap going up 12/4. I started with 17 16 12 8 11 12 and the 2 ranger levels first for the skill pts, and the first 2WF right away. Now I've taken all 4 of the Pal levels, with the lvl4 pt going to STR.

He's been a blast to play. Great saves, and so far not much 2WF yet because he's been super effective with +3 mith FP and Shield and only 1 longsword.

So why am I posting in the Paladin forum? Well I'm wondering now about going mostly Paladin instead of mostly Ranger, and wanted Paladin experts to tell me how viable this would be with my stats, and what the tradeoffs would be. With the xp for 6th I ate a Dex tome so that I could take Imp 2WF upon leveling, so am good dex-wise for Gr 2WF later too.

Barkskin is nice on the ranger side, but with a better Aura I might not miss it. I took the Sov Host enh for the +1 longswords to stack with the Elven ones, later on the one full heal from Unyeilding Sovereignty would be cool. Both classes get me 30 pt resists, I like being able to contribute to buffing/healing. Had wand use either way...

Anyway +1 tomes and +6 items get WIS to 18 and CHA to 20 with Pal Cha I if mostly ranger, and 22 if enough Pal levels for Cha III. All 4 lvl pts I think go to STR regardless.

Can someone tell me how this would look as Pal14/Ra2 situationally going either 2 longswords or swapping to a shield with one? Assume there Imp and Gr 2WF, and oversides 2WF at lvl 9.

All input appreciated. This guy has been on the back burner for a while, so besides considering more Pal levels than originally planned I'm also evaluating the origanal 12Ra/4P split too given Mod 6 options such as Tempest and access to Rams Might. If other level break pts make sense here too, let me know!

Thanks.

TC

[rimble]

I'm pretty sure your Ranger granted TWF feat won't meet the requirement for taking ITWF. :(

You either need to take all the TWF feats, or get all the Ranger ones for free, you can't mix and match. So, basically, I think you're stuck with Ranger. You could respec and take TWF as a feat and go from there, but that seems to really negate any point those Ranger levels served. Starting over as an Elven Paladin with a 17 Dex would make for a good TWFer I think (get a +2 Dex tome before level 15 so you can get STWF then). Pretty sure there are some builds around here like that.

[MrCow]

I'm pretty sure your Ranger granted TWF feat won't meet the requirement for taking ITWF.

The ranger granted Two Weapon Fighting feat does meet the prerequisite for the later Two Weapon Fighting Feats.

[rimble]

The ranger granted Two Weapon Fighting feat does meet the prerequisite for the later Two Weapon Fighting Feats.

Thanks, thought I read otherwise.

OP, I'm finding it pretty hard to steer you away from three more free feats (ITWF, GTWF, STWF), Evasion, and Tempest. I prefer the Paladin spell list, but with those four levels you've already nabbed the majority of usefulness that the Paladin class has to offer. Supposed Paladin love in Mod 7, but who knows.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Don't have the time to work out all the stats right now, but one other thought would be
Paladin 4 / Rogue 2 / Fighter 10

Use the Fighter Levels to augment the feats that you need.

Off the top of me head, not at all a solid build:
4 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 10 Fighter

32-point Elf
STR: 16 + 3 (Levels) + 2 (1750 Tome) + 3 (Fighter STR 1) + 6 (Item) = 30 (+10)
DEX: 17 + 1 (Level) + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Rogue Dex 1) + 2 (Elven Dex 2) + 4 (Item) = 26 (+8)
CON: 13 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 20 (+5)
INT: 8
WIS: 8 + 1 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 16 (+3)
CHA: 14 + 1 (Tome) + 1 (Paladin Cha 1) + 6 (Item) = 22 (+6)

Feats:
1) TWF
3) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
6) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
7F) ITWF
8F) Weapon Focus: Slash
9) IC: Slash
10F) Dodge (or Weapon Spec: Slash)
12) Toughness
12F) GTWF
14F) Greater Weapon Focus: Slash
15) Force of Personality
16F) STWF

Again, this is REALLY REALLY rough.. and not thought out at all... just an idea.
But the idea would be 30-Strength with Superior TWF, with Elven Dragonmark of Shadow (Displacement), plus Evasion, wearing KDS with FAM 3 & Fully Maxxed out Dex Bonus, and going Double Longswords for Elven Melee Enhancement + Sovereign Host.

Just some thoughts.

----------------------
Or, take the Holy Avenger build (11P/2R/1F), and take all the TWF feats instead of Khopesh, PA, and Dragonmarks. You can't get hte Elven Dragonmark and all the TWF feats... but it could work with the above stats.

[tc12]

Dworkin- Thanks for the ideas, but I'm trying to make this work as well as possible without a re-roll.

I guess to re-state goals, I'm looking for a durable Elf able to 2WF well with longswords, or as needed sword-n-board with one. Currenly with 2 Ranger levels I get the first 2WF for free, and I have 17 Dex to get Gr/Imp by regular feat choice if needed. Already having a +1 tome, Superior would take a +3 tome, +2 and 1 lvl pt, or 2 lvl pts in Dex, unless I went all-Ranger from here and the Mod 7 changes of Tempest II or just granting it to Rangers occurs as some speculate.

The main reason I decided not to go mostly ranger has some factors other than just absolute best build for this character itself. Rather two-fold decision in that 1) I have a Dwarf Rogue1/Ranger1 that I've decided to go Ranger from here on (similar to Gren's Round Mound of Astound build), and 2) I've recently partied with a lot of Paladins that are still the ones standing when half of the party wiped.

So that means trying to make this guy more paladin than not. I've never really been a class purist (excepting caster classes), so think the 2 Ranger levels should work fine here. The question is how much Paladin at the end is recommended when multiclassing. It looks like level 10 enhancments are nice -- Cha III and Tough IV, etc are there, or at level 11 the +3 aura enhancements.

If going Pal 10 is enough, then Ra6/Pal10 seems a decent break point too. Gets the 2nd 2WF as class feat allowing a re-spec of the one taken at lvl 6. And picks up a second Ranger FA.

The other extreme is just Ra2/Pal14. In between I could se Ra2/Pal12/F2 or even Ra2/Pal12/Ro2 to get evasion back. Sure the first and last (no F levels) are a bit tight on feats, but other than Imp/Gr 2WF, oversized 2WF and IC:slash I'm not sure what else I'd need on this guy.

Any thoughts on best break point given the existing levels and the desire to be mostly Paladin on this build? I think I'm leaning toward the Ra2/Pal12/Ro2 at this point.

Thanks.

TC

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

While you do get TWF for free with Ranger 2, you could also take Fighter 2, get 2x Bonus Feats, one for TWF, one for something else, as well as pickup Tower Shield Proficiency and STR 1. Consider also that 11 Paladin / 2 Rog / 3 Fighter gives FAM & FTSM 1, allowing higher Dex bonus for your Armor and Tower Shield... and probably has better long-term potential (thinking 11 Pal / 2 Rog / 7 Fgt @ Level 20, getting 4 Bonus Feat, Fght STR 2, FAM/FTSM 2, etc)

But if you are married to Ranger, then you might also want to consider 11 Pal / 2 Rog / 3 Rng, and get Diehard for free along the way. Diehard is the new feat that makes you auto-stabilize when incapped... and now you will heal back up to 1 HP after 30 sec (30 sec wait, then 1 HP per 6 seconds back up to 1)

Paladin 12 really only offers +1 LoH, and while nice... I'mn not convinced.

It also allows for 11 Pal / 2 Rog / 7 Rng (or 11/3/6), and getting Tempest along the way.

[Pree]

I have yet to make a paladin, and have been thinking of making the same build with Pally and ranger mixed together. I originally wanted to go pure Pally (but TWF Dps build) I then decided to splash two levels of Ranger in her for the skill points and free feats (bow strength, rapid shot, and twfing)
As is stands I think my Level 20 build will be 11Pally/9Ranger I get 30pt resist and Evasion. Still in the planning stages though. I think with the level cap being 16 I will go 7Pally/9Ranger that will give me My 2nd bulwark enhancement, Evasion, Tempest, and I don't lose a BAB by going Rogue.

Good luck on your build, and let me know how it goes any information would be great in helping me work out my build.

[Taerdra]

Not sure whether I think this can be a truly effective build. Paladin doesn't have tons of synergy with a 2WF build and the biggest benefit of Paladin for this type of build is saves which can be had after 2-3 levels. If you're set on it, I would go 6 Ranger/8-10 Paladin/1-2 Fighter. You're going to need Fighter levels for the feats. Dworkin's stats are good to me.

Feats:
1) Dodge
3) Mobility
6) Spring Attack
9) Improved Critical
12) Greater TWF
15) Oversized TWF

If you go Fighter, I would use one of the Fighter levels to get Oversized TWF earlier, then use the free feat for Toughness, and the second Fighter level for Power Attack. Good luck with your build.

[Sydril]

I just rolled a elven longsword wielding twf pally. going well, decided to stay pure pally.

starting stats were:

14
16
12
12
12
14

feats are (in this order):

twf
over sized twf
imp twf
imp crit slash
greater twf
toughness

[Angelus_dead]

I just rolled a elven longsword wielding twf pally. going well, decided to stay pure pally.
Rapiers are better than longswords.

The only reason to use longswords in that build would be if you occasionally like to swing Greatswords or Greataxes (which is really not your objective).

[Sydril]

Rapiers are better than longswords.

The only reason to use longswords in that build would be if you occasionally like to swing Greatswords or Greataxes (which is really not your objective).

actually another good reason to use longswords is the vorpals, banishers, smiters and such that I already have in possession and are just collecting dust on my fighter.

but to each his own. rapiers are better for an extra 10% crit with minimally less damage.

[Riekan]

If you're not staying ranger to get your twf feats for free, you'll need a 17 dex (natural stat + level ups + tomes, no enhancements, no gear) to be eligible for ITWF and GTWF with a 19 later on when they implement STWF. So, on your build, you'll need to burn level ups on dexterity or acquire tomes to even be able to continue along the TWF line without the ranger levels. As a longsword user, you'll not be taking weapon finesse, so I would assume you'll want your level ups to go into strength to be able to continue to hit at the higher levels, which leaves tomes to get you there.

[Aeneas]

Not to be a jerk (i have 3 characters with paladin splashes) but the paladin splash is on the outs with the new negatively charged shroud raid items.

Poison, disease, and fear immunity as well as deathblock on one item.

sorcs with pally splash aside - are the 3 or 4 extra points on your saves worth 2 levels of paladin vs. 2 of your current main class?

[juniorpfactors]

Not to be a jerk (i have 3 characters with paladin splashes) but the paladin splash is on the outs with the new negatively charged shroud raid items.

Poison, disease, and fear immunity as well as deathblock on one item.

sorcs with pally splash aside - are the 3 or 4 extra points on your saves worth 2 levels of paladin vs. 2 of your current main class?


some might waiste a slot for the above item ...no me.......... greater false life belt with poison on it.....already immune to disease and greater hero takes care of the fear....