Bard build feed back

[Suzaku]

The main focus is support and maximizing Inspire Courage


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.80
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Sarna
Level 16 Neutral Good Drow Female
(16 Bard)
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 875
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 10
Will: 18

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16) (Level 16)
Strength 14 14 14
Dexterity 10 10 10
Constitution 10 10 10
Intelligence 12 12 12
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 20 24 27

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16) (Level 16)
Balance 0 0 0
Bluff 9 27 27
Concentration 0 0 0
Diplomacy 9 27 27
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 9 27 27
Heal -1 -1 -1
Hide 0 0 0
Intimidate 5 8 8
Jump 6 21 21
Listen -1 -1 1
Move Silently 0 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform 9 27 27
Repair 1 1 1
Search 1 1 3
Spot -1 -1 1
Swim 2 2 2
Tumble 4 19 19
Use Magic Device 9 27 27

Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Fascinate
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus (Drow)
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Competence
Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I

Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II

Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II

Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Suggestion
Enhancement: Warchanter I

Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Hypnotic Pattern
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Inspire Courage
Spell (3): Dispel Magic
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II

Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Inspire Greatness
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III

Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II

Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Neutralize Poison
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Song of Freedom
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III

Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Break Enchantment
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III

Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music IV

Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III

Level 16 (Bard)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance
Spell (6): Charm Monster, Mass
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV

[ShadowFox1978]

Build looks pretty solid. But, you are low on HP for a melee character. I would suggest dropping Cha to 18 and putting those 6 points into con. Max current Cha would be 32 instead of 34, but that is still rock solid for your spell DC's. If you don'y want to give up the charisma, I would suggest thinking about adding support with bows. Your song bonuses would still apply, but your hp would be less of an issue as yoy won't be in the middle of the fray.

[maddmatt70]

Build looks pretty solid. But, you are low on HP for a melee character. I would suggest dropping Cha to 18 and putting those 6 points into con. Max current Cha would be 32 instead of 34, but that is still rock solid for your spell DC's. If you don'y want to give up the charisma, I would suggest thinking about adding support with bows. Your song bonuses would still apply, but your hp would be less of an issue as yoy won't be in the middle of the fray.

I think you misunderstand this build shadowfox. This is not a melee bard or at least not a melee bard first, but rather a buff bard first, then a cc bard second, and then a melee bard third. I would not take any points out of charisma for this build, but I would take away 2 points from int and put those into con raising that stat to 12. This build will work fine especially if the player is a good party buffer and does a fair amount of ccing... Again every point of charisma that you can manage...

The only feat that I am unsure about is force of personality - I would probably go with something else which would help this characters ability to cc..

[EinarMal]

I think you misunderstand this build shadowfox. This is not a melee bard or at least not a melee bard first, but rather a buff bard first, then a cc bard second, and then a melee bard third. I would not take any points out of charisma for this build, but I would take away 2 points from int and put those into con raising that stat to 12. This build will work fine especially if the player is a good party buffer and does a fair amount of ccing... Again every point of charisma that you can manage...

The only feat that I am unsure about is force of personality - I would probably go with something else which would help this characters ability to cc..

I would start with 18 charisma and swap IMT for SF Enchantment. You just got back your -1 DC already. Use those points to raise Con to 12 and Str to 16. That makes you better able to use power attack and weapon focus instead of just wasting those feats for +1/+2 to inspire courage and DR song (which is not worth it just for that).

To me personally 20 charisma on a Bard is waste and neglects other stats (like con and str). The problem is there just aren't enough good Bard CC spells to just be a caster, at some point you just have to actually kill something. You cannot always count on others doing all the killing, sometimes you are going to have to do it yourself. You also can't hold everything, there are too many mobs in the game that are unaffected by most Bard spells. Sure on a Sorc it makes sense as you are killing with your spell points and have so many more good spells to use.

If you are not going to fight, maxing inspire courage is kind of a silly reason to go warchanter in my opinion. A pure Bard's song of +8/+6 is already a great buff, +9/+8 is better but not light years ahead. Spellsinger would help your build more in the long run and make you more useful in caster parties (which is more prevelant at higher levels anyway).

I think it is kind of funny how caught up people get in another +1/+2 to inspire courage. It is not that great unless you are in a raid over a pure Bard's song. On the one hand you have dead and on the other you have dead .2 seconds faster, unless the casters in the group already killed everything before you could swing. At most you have 2-3 people including yourself in most 6 man high level parties that can take advantage of inspire courage. To worry about maxing that out, if you yourself aren't really taking advantage of it doesn't make much sense to me personally.

If you want to play a support build, drop the warchanter stuff and go spellsinger and take some casting feats like spell penetration and greater spell penetration. This will allow you to use more often otto's irresistable dance at high levels which has no save, but does require an SR check if mobs have it. You can still buff just as good with spells, and buff casters much better, and still provide plenty of boost to melees. That is a better support build as you are supporting both melee and casters in the party.

[Impaqt]

If its not a melee focused build, why take Weapon Focus and power attack--> Warchanter? IMO, the benefits from warchanter simply dont equate to burning 2 useless feats....... I'd much rather have a melee focused bard with Warchanter inthe party rather tna a CC one. Spellsinger or even virtuoso would make much more sense in a CC build.

[smyter]

being a support bard, you may wish to take sf: umd. Heal scrolls make all the difference.

[MysticRhythms]

You need to pick a focus - either CC or Warchanting. The two don't mix very well. If you want to be a Warchanter, you need to recoup some of those build points in Charisma into the combat stats and chppse spells to accommodate that choice.

Otherwise, the posters above have the right idea - go with Spellsinger or Virtuoso and really focus on spell points, UMD and maybe even more healing. That could even warrant a splash of one sorcerer level too.

[maddmatt70]

I disagree with the comments by nearly all the above posters as I have seen very effective warchanter support bards. Snowflake on my server is awesome at this as she prides herself on permahasting all the tanks and constant buffs. Where this build is very effective is on a 12 person raid and quite frankly is probably the best bard oriented build for that type of venue although if I were making a similiar build I would have upgraded the bard's healing capabilities which would have been slighty superior to this build... I would have gone for empower healing over force of personality and made sure to have very high bard healing enhancements and nice devotion equipment..

Most people don't understand why someone would want to be a buffer first bard; hence, they are so rare, but they can be very effective...

[maddmatt70]

Just one more comment on maxing charisma. It is totally valid for the spell points that bards start out with and because monsters will saves are going to go up. It is been awhile since bards have gone against monsters with good will saves. All you bards who are advocated none max charisma go out to tempest spine elite and see how many of your spells land between spell resistance and the monster saving - you all are in for a rude awakening in mod6 with devils running around...

[EinarMal]

Just one more comment on maxing charisma. It is totally valid for the spell points that bards start out with and because monsters will saves are going to go up. It is been awhile since bards have gone against monsters with good will saves. All you bards who are advocated none max charisma go out to tempest spine elite and see how many of your spells land between spell resistance and the monster saving - you all are in for a rude awakening in mod6 with devils running around...

The correct answer is, use spells that don't make an SR check against mobs with spell resistance. It is pretty easy just look at the descriptions of the spells and as an added bonus not all of them are will saves wow imagine that. Of course picking up heighten is recommended...

Grease (No SR Reflex Save)
Glitterdust (No SR Will Save)
Soundburst (No SR Fort Save) (Mr. Cow says desc. is wrong)
Otto's Sphere (No SR Will Save) (According to in game description which Mr. Cow says is wrong)
Mass Suggestion (No SR Will Save)

The OP's build takes no spell focus feats, no spell penetration feats, and has warchanter instead of spellsinger. How is maxing the charisma on that build going to help much. The benefit to spell points is literally like 20 more spell points at level 16.

By taking spellsinger alone it's the same as if the OP had 18 charisma, so how again is that build better?

[EinarMal]

I disagree with the comments by nearly all the above posters as I have seen very effective warchanter support bards. Snowflake on my server is awesome at this as she prides herself on permahasting all the tanks and constant buffs. Where this build is very effective is on a 12 person raid and quite frankly is probably the best bard oriented build for that type of venue although if I were making a similiar build I would have upgraded the bard's healing capabilities which would have been slighty superior to this build... I would have gone for empower healing over force of personality and made sure to have very high bard healing enhancements and nice devotion equipment..

Most people don't understand why someone would want to be a buffer first bard; hence, they are so rare, but they can be very effective...

+1/+2 to inspire courage is not worth wasting two feats it has nothing to do with understanding a support Bard. A spellsinger is just plain better, what about the support of -10% spell points and +1 to spell DC to the casters?

[skraus1]

Also irresistable dance is coming = no save CC

[maddmatt70]

+1/+2 to inspire courage is not worth wasting two feats

Yes, if you are a buffer and especially if you raid alot. This build really shines on 12 mans... I have run with a buffer oriented warchanter who was very solid whereas it sounds like you have not... I personnaly would go with a buffer 1st , healer 2nd, cc 3rd, melee build 4th over this one, but that is my preference..

[MysticRhythms]

Also irresistable dance is coming = no save CC

But it is "Spell Resistance: Yes"

[MysticRhythms]

Most people don't understand why someone would want to be a buffer first bard; hence, they are so rare, but they can be very effective...

Actually, some of us understand it just fine, but that Warchanter enhancement comes at the price of two feats and three other action points. If a Bard is spending feats on Weapon Focus and Power Attack, it sure makes sense for such a bard to devote more build points to Strength and Constitution.

Otherwise, the Bard can still buff the melees with -1/-2 less effectiveness than a true Warchanter, but can compensate by making the spellcasters better instead.

I think that if you are going to be a Warchanter, you should try to make use of that Power Attack feat.

[EinarMal]

Yes, if you are a buffer and especially if you raid alot. This build really shines on 12 mans... I have run with a buffer oriented warchanter who was very solid whereas it sounds like you have not... I personnaly would go with a buffer 1st , healer 2nd, cc 3rd, melee build 4th over this one, but that is my preference..

Well we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, you keep ignoring the fact that half of your raid are not melee builds and the spellsinger buff would augment what they do while better inspire courage would not.

[EinarMal]

But it is "Spell Resistance: Yes"

Yep again the right tool for the job that is why Heighten is going to be the best Mod6 caster feat for a CC Bard:

Grease (No SR Reflex Save)
Glitterdust (No SR Will Save)
Soundburst (No SR Fort Save) (Mr. Cow says desc. is wrong)
Otto's Sphere (No SR Will Save) (According to in game description which Mr. Cow says is wrong)
Mass Suggestion (No SR Will Save)

[MrCow]

Soundburst (No SR Fort Save)
Otto's Sphere (No SR Will Save)

Both of these trigger an Spell Penetration check if the critter has Spell Resistance.

[EinarMal]

Both of these trigger an Spell Penetration check if the critter has Spell Resistance.

Hmm in game description is incorrect then I just checked it. Oh well they shall be stricken from the list! I thought it was odd that ottos sphere said that it seemed like it should use SR.

[Zenako]

Also by taking Spellsinger you get a UMD boost tossed in as well.

As for triming around the margins. Drop Str to 13 (for the minimum for Power attack), drop the extra INT and put all of those into CON. Helps your otherwise weak FORT saves and will help the buffer survive a little better.

[aldan]

I think the warchanter is not needed in this build, a better enhancement would be spellslinger. I agree that bards do need to fight at some point. But the build is great for CHA but not so great in DEX and CON.

You are going to get hit in battle period. You need to figure out what you want to do. If it is support, then roll a spellslinger, if you want to fight then build a warchanter.

My bard (Taal warchanter build)


Started with 18 str and 12 cha, 15 dex and 14 con.


Ate dex, con, and cha tomes.

At level 12 I have inproved two weapon fighting, can buff the entire party with blurs, good hope, songs, etc. I can get my dancing balls to stick on elite in cabal ( gianthold). I still have sp left over to glitterdust or whatever. This is a great build and lends plenty of support.


Also, lose the neutral good, you should go true neutral and your UMD will allow you to use pure good weapons. Your UMD is fine.