Importance of Saving Throws, now I know

[cinoaz]

Okay,

I play mostly clerics, but I got the wild hair to build a Bbn, dwarven that is. I played the Bbn to 14th level, and had great fun, but, I omitted a very important aspect of the build, saving throws.

I built the Bbn as one should, focussed on DPS (STR), second on Con(HP), third on Dex(AC Bonus) and that's about it. At the end, I had a pretty good build for a first timer. Unbuffed +8 to STR, only a +1 to Dex (Went with Full plate for AC boost) and a +3 to CON, gave me about 280HP.

Okay, before someone flames me for not being exact, or starts to spout numbers, okay, you're correct. I'm going off memory here, I know I'm pretty close.

Anyway, I noticed I was getting the snot whacked out of me during quests lately, higher level quests. Then, another fighter asked me about my Fortitude Save bonus, and I was so focussed on AC and STR stats, I never paid attention to that. So, after getting schooled on the importance of Saving Throws, especially Fortitude Saves, I went out to correct it.

I went with a +2 Tome to Con, picked up +4 Resistance Items, changed out some feats that I really wasn't using for CON bonuses. I basically went from a +7 Fortitude save to a +20 fort save, plus a nice boost on the other saving throws.

Reran a few quests, low and behold, I was getting hit still, but the damage I was taking was much more manageable. No more huge chunks of damage getting blown off me. It allowed me to stay in the fight longer, take down more baddies, and be a better Bbn class.

So, to those who may not pay attention to saving throws like I did, change your focus. Sure AC and Main stats are important, but it's the total build that makes a difference.

Happy DPSing....

[cardmj1]

From the rest of clerics...









thank you.

[Shade]

I went with a +2 Tome to Con, picked up +4 Resistance Items, changed out some feats that I really wasn't using for CON bonuses. I basically went from a +7 Fortitude save to a +20 fort save, plus a nice boost on the other saving throws.


+7 fortitude save?!?!!?

How was that even possible?
As a 14th level barbarian - your base foritutude save naked with 10 con would be +9.. And since your a dwarf you should get +2 to all spell saves from dwarven spell resistance - which counts for 99% of fortitude saves so a bare minimum of +11.

I mean even 20 is insanely low.. My barbarian has an ungodly buffed fortittude save of +50 - ands thats with zero feats invested in saves.

A basic score would look like this for a lvl14 dwarven barbarian:
+9 - Base
+2 - Dwarven spell resistance with no enhancements - highly recommend the enhancements as they bring it to +5
+8 - 26 con - very reasonable for a raged dwarven barbarian with no enhancements(16 base, +4 item, 20, +6 rage, 26)
+4 - Resistance item
+4 - Greater hero - something you should have 95% of the time, if you have no planar gird, ask the wiz/sorc for it - they have it, 99% of them do anyways.
= 27

and you say you have only +20 WITH Feats spent in it?
Something severerely wrong with your character if thats the case.

Probably missing some key enhancements - like dwarf/barb con I, hearty rage 2-3, dwarven spell resistance.

But really fortitude save should be a no brainer, it should just be high period. What you need to worry about is your reflex and will with those low dex and wis scores.

[cinoaz]

+7 fortitude save?!?!!?

How was that even possible?.

Prior:

9 base
3 con
= 11 Fort unbuffed. So I had 11, not 7, still dismal.

Now:
9 base
7 con
4 Enchantment
= 20 Fort Unbuffed.

I thought I swapped out enchancements, but I didn't. I have 0 points into Hardy Rage (Con Bonuses), 0 in Dwarf Constitution, and 1 in Bbn Constitution. But with a quick fix, I picked up 9 points on my Fort save in relatively short time, given where I was before, 20 is much better than 11.

I focussed on Axe Damage, Axe Attack, Damage Boost, Speed Boost, Extend Rage, Extra Rage, and Power Rage, and Bbn Willpower.

My *obviously* flawed build is:
+9 - Base
+7 - 24 con - Unbuffed
+4 - Resistance item
= 20

In order to reach the Minimum, I would need:

+4 - Greater hero - something you should have 95% of the time, if you have no planar gird, ask the wiz/sorc for it - they have it, 99% of them do anyways.
+2 Dwarvin Constitution
+1 more to my Con Stat.
= 27

Since Dwarvin Spell resistance counts towards Will Saves, not Fortitude, so I'm not sure what that +2 means, anyways, since I am so far removed from 50 Fort Save does that really matter?

So my saves now are:

20 Fort
10 Will
7 Reflex.

Oh, I didn't open the thread by saying, look how good my Saving throws are, I merely said, I realized how important they are. For someone who plays a Cleric all the time, a Nannybot mostly, I never bothered with Saving Throws. High CHR and WIS plus enhancements took care of them, it wasn't something I was actively controlling.

Playing a Bbn, I screwed up, and from the looks of things, quite handily. Just goes to show how important all stats are, including saving throws, they can't be ignored.

[Nevthial]

My *obviously* flawed build is:
+9 - Base
+7 - 24 con - Unbuffed
+4 - Resistance item
= 20

Playing a Bbn, I screwed up, and from the looks of things, quite handily. Just goes to show how important all stats are, including saving throws, they can't be ignored.

It wasn't that big of a mistake, and you fixed it readily! However, yes saves are highly important. Just remember, if all the enemies die quickly, you have no saves to make :)

[Hadrian]

I don't think your will save can be that low. You have barbarian willpower, are a dwarf, and still have only 10 will saves?

Are you a hybrid fighter/barb? That would also explain why you can wear standard full plate.

Or maybe you mean 10 before rage and excluding dwarf bonuses?

[Asirin]

And dont forget fearsome armor...for very obvious reasons :)

[cinoaz]

I never specced points into Wis, Chr, or Int.

So I have a -1 in each category, -2 in CHR. I went with All STR, then CON, then DEX. I kept my Dex to a +2, thus I took Armor Mastery as a feat. my max Dex Bonus in Full Plate is +2, which is what my Dex bonus is. Full Bbn, no multi-class

Will saves:
4 base
-1 mod
= 3 Will Save

So, my stats with 0 buffs, 0 item enchancements, and non-rage are:

+5 STR
+2 Dex
+5 CON
-1 Will
-1 Int
-2 CHR

Saving Throws, 0 buffs, 0 items, 0 rage

16 FORT
9 Reflect
3 Will

Add +5 STR and CON items

+8 STR
+2 Dex
+7 CON

Add Rage

+12 STR
+2 DEX
+10 CON

Added +4 Resistance Cloak, Raging to Saving Throws

23 FORT
10 Reflect
17 Will

So, when raging, I get a plus 14 to my will Saves, but Reflex remains unchanged.

As I'm learning, it looks like I will be re-doing my enchancements. Dump Desert Lore, Dump Bbn Damage Reduction, Dump Bbn Sprint Boost, and maybe Dwarven Axe Attack and Axe Damage. Go talk with Fred, change out my Two Weapon feat for Bbn Con or something.

[Shade]

Since Dwarvin Spell resistance counts towards Will Saves, not Fortitude, so I'm not sure what that +2 means, anyways, since I am so far removed from 50 Fort Save does that really matter?


Dwarven spell resistance is acttualy much better then that. It applies to ALL saving throwers vs spells. Be it a disintegrate spell (fortitude), a fireball (reflex) or a hold person (will) - it applies to them all equally. You have a +2 base for that just be being a dwarf. Note this bonus does not display on the character sheet - but does show up in the combat log.

And no - 50 fortitude save is MEGA Overkill and not nessary. For high level elite quests, the highest DC's you tend to face for fortitude saves are about 30. So 20 fortitude save will stop 50% of the, and 30 will stop 95%.

So 30 is the ideal number to shoot for, any higher doesn't do allot.

Based on what you said now - rest assured your fortitude save is fine. You just need to keep a few things in mind to play a barbarian effectively:
You need to get the right buffs to survive.. As you should be the primary dps dealer in the group, the party should have no issues casting buffs on you to help you out.
A) Always ask for greater hero
B) Make sure you get the correct resistances for the quest, these make a huge difference. If you not sure which ones you need - get them all, casters have plenty of sp these days.
C) Other buffs like cleric spell resistance, shield of faith, protection from evil are all very helpful, so get them if you can.
D) - Most important: Keep raged 100% of the time! With 24 unbuffed con - assuming your a level14 barbarian with extend rage 3 or 4, you should have over 15minuits of rage - enough to keep raged always for 90% of quests - so do it. Whenever your rage runs out, drink a lesser restore potion, then a rage potion, then rage again - set these up to hotkeys you can quickly press during battle. Even if your getting attack by 10 monsters - stop to drink those and re-rage, it will make the difference.

Your overall fortitude save raged and buffed should be 29 btw.
9 base
10 con - you should have 30 con raged with no hearty rage enhancements.
4 resistance - your cloak
4 greater hero - get buffed
2 dwarven - spell resistance
Keep in mind your character sheet will display 27, but dwarven spell resist does work, it only shows in the rolls.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

You're saying, OP, that you take chunks of damage in high-end content. Silly question, but do you have a heavy fort item on?

Fort saves aint gonna stop a big ogre club.

What do you mean you're still getting hit? Thats nothing to do with saves.

Am I just confused by the wording of your OP?

And Ive no idea what my fort saves are on Eyern, but they are huge. Will save is above +25 with a base WIS of 8. Ive PvP'd with a guildie who built an enchanter, and I failed my saves very rarely.

Im not really sure why you would have a problem.

[Shade]

Since im bored, here is the breakdown of the maximum possible fortitude save:
For a Dwarven Barbarian, level14 (no feats spent on saves):
Constitution:
Base 20 +3 level ups, 23 + 6 item, 29, +3 tome, 32, +9 Greater hearty rage III, 41, +5 dwarf/barb con enhancements, 46, +8 double madstone, 54, +6 bloodrage level2, 60 = +25

(Bonus type - Amount)
Base - 9
Con - 25
Resistance - 5 (Boots of the innocent)
Luck - 2 (Head of good fortune)
Morale - 4 (Greater Heroism)
Enhancement - 5 (Dwarven spell resistance III)
Competance - 5 (Tensors Transfomration from a Shavarath battleground cake)
= +55
Or +60 vs the poison spell (Dwarven poison resistance III)
Or +63 vs poison traps (-5 for no spell resistance, +8 for trapsense +4 base, and +4 enhancement)

I think a halfling paladin could possibly get slightly higher vs non poison - but it would be a very gimped unplayable build with like 30 cha.. While this build with max con is somewhat gimped, its still playable.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

As I'm learning, it looks like I will be re-doing my enchancements. Dump Desert Lore, Dump Bbn Damage Reduction, Dump Bbn Sprint Boost, and maybe Dwarven Axe Attack and Axe Damage. Go talk with Fred, change out my Two Weapon feat for Bbn Con or something.

Dump heavy armour, when you rage you take a big hit to AC, so its kinda pointless. Also mithril fullplate is becoming quite common, and you can wear that without using a feat. Defo dump desert lore, some like barb damage reduction, I dont use it. Dwarf axe attack/damage I have. I also have THF all the way, you have two weapon feat? As in a weapon in each hand? And do NOT drop barb sprint boost, it rocks. Only take the first tier tho.

Action points should go into Critical Rage I & II. After that you want to build up your CON and STR using the rage enhancements. Dorf and Barb CON should be taken. Dont take toughness. I think I took extra spell defense because I had to spend some AP's to get where I wanted to go.

When spending yer points keep in mind you want to be a raging manic...anything that enhances STR & CON while raging is good.

For yer reflex saves you use yer action boost for improved dodge, its situational.

One more thing, if you dont know rage pots/clickies stack with your rage boost...always double rage.

[Hadrian]

17 will before dwarven resistance sounds a lot more reasonable. Find yourself a wisdom item if you're not going to max out dorf spell resistance. Sitting on a low-to-mid 20s will save will cover you for most of the content. A belt of tongue can help quite a bit, too.

For the enhancement choices:

I actually think sprint boost is worth one rank at 1 action point. It helps in lots of situations to be able to move that quickly.

You'll want to take most of the rage enhancements possible

Power, Critical, Extra, Extended, Will Power and at least some Hearty Rage enhancements. You can dump leftover points at the end of your choices into hearty rage.

Power attack enhancements are very useful.

If you have a lot of axes, the first axe damage (1 damage for 2 APs) is worth it, but I don't think it's worth the cost to go up to rank two unless you have 4 points left over after you have everything else where you want it, including hearty rage. I would probably spend these points on dwarven spell resistance instead.

I hear Damage Reduction boosts are useful, but being a WF I have a docent that makes it a waste for my own build.

[cinoaz]

Whenever your rage runs out, drink a lesser restore potion, then a rage potion, then rage again - set these up to hotkeys you can quickly press during battle. Even if your getting attack by 10 monsters - stop to drink those and re-rage, it will make the difference.

Hey, I never knew you could do that, I always just waited for the fatigue to wear off, really a pain sometimes too. Thanks Shade.

Back to the original reason I posted, I'm sure other players, as well as myself, never bothered to look at those stats either, but they need attention too.