Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[MysticTheurge]

from the screenshot of the shard and the description it looks like essence and foci can vary (ie as long as they are the right quasi upgrade) but the gem is not mentioned....so would it need to be static between the 2 upgrades.

:confused:

It says "Ethereal Earth Opposition."

[Wulf_Ratbane]

I also have a leftover EEP/EEN

This thread's been so civil so far, let's not start an EEP/EEN measuring contest now.

[gpk]

As an update to the 30% Healing, the Finger Necklace DOES stack. Heal scrolls were doing 275 supposedly after equipping it, 260 without.

Ah thx for the update, an interesting thing to know.

[Kargon]

Kargon at 20/24 now (and still need 1 small shard) to test pos/neg/pos+neg, but kargon have a guess now that evermabody guessaming what going get:

existentimial stalemamate probamally going to give.... 'Immortalimaty! HP cannot drop below -9. Only vorpamals can kill you now.'

:D

[Cowdenicus]

Concordant Opposition discovered. More details incoming.

[UtherSRG]

Concordant Opposition discovered. More details incoming.

Tease! :D

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Concordant Opposition discovered. More details incoming.

Oooh - almost makes me want to log back in and wind Kargon up that someone beat him to Existential Stalemate II :)

Garth

[Kargon]

Concordant Opposition discovered. More details incoming.

That bettermer not be existentimial stalemate II, or willmaphase NEVERMER going let kargon hear the end of it :(

[Kargon]

Oooh - almost makes me want to log back in and wind Kargon up that someone beat him to Existential Stalemate II :)

Garth

see?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

see?

I told you someone else was making it.

Make Magma II - that sounds MUCH more interesting! :)

Garth

[Kargon]

I told you someone else was making it.

Make Magma II - that sounds MUCH more interesting! :)

Garth

when willmaphase find kargon the bastard sword recimape, kargon get right on that.

[Cowdenicus]

That bettermer not be existentimial stalemate II, or willmaphase NEVERMER going let kargon hear the end of it :(

it is existential stalemate 2... sorry kargon. It is pretty **** uber also.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

when willmaphase find kargon the bastard sword recimape, kargon get right on that.

You'll thank me tomorrow when existential stalemate II turns out to be light fortification, SR 11, +2 protection and +1 will save (oh and everbright goggles)

Garth

[Kargon]

it is existential stalemate 2... sorry kargon. It is pretty **** uber also.

Hmm... kargon have two responses to this:

well then convince them they bettermer off hiding the stats from forums like last time so kargon can have credit.

or:
OMG***BBQSAUCEONASMOKECUREHAMN0O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o 0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0 O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O 0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o 0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00O o0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O 0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0 o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O 0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O0 00o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00o O00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o 0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0 o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o 0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0 O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0o0O000o0O 0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0O00oO00O0 o0O000o0O0O0O0O0o0O0o0o0O0o0O0O0o0O0o00Oo0o0o0O0o0 O00oO0

Oh well, at least the tier 1 and 2 upgramades are what kargon needs anymaway, kargon finish it rathermer than find new recimape. all kargon high levamel charactermermers are alreadamy wearaming one green steel itamem and eithermer have enough green steel weapamons, cant get the weapamon type they need, or dont swing weapamons so are no reasamon for kargon get anymathing else unfortunatamally. only thing that might convince kargon do somemathing else would be a +3 wisdom tome on kargona so can cast spells without needing the +6 wisdom from pos/neg.

[Keneith]

Jus wondering....wat will happen if tier 1 & 2 u get either Tempered(Fire/Water or Water/Fire) or Balance of Land & Sky (Earth/Air or Air/Earth), then at tier 3, u do the opposite, i.e. if tier 2 u get Tempered, tier 3 u'll do Balance of Land & Sky, n vice versa...
In other words,u'll have all 4 elementals foci! wat will u get? :p

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Oh well, at least the tier 1 and 2 upgramades are what kargon needs anymaway, kargon finish it rathermer than find new recimape. all kargon high levamel charactermermers are alreadamy wearaming one green steel itamem and eithermer have enough green steel weapamons, cant get the weapamon type they need, or dont swing weapamons so are no reasamon for kargon get anymathing else unfortunatamally. only thing that might convince kargon do somemathing else would be a +3 wisdom tome on kargona so can cast spells without needing the +6 wisdom from pos/neg.

Sounds like Kargon has SPARE large ingredients? Tinosa has two shards of supreme power, is off timer, and lightning I goggles - maybe discover lightning II tomorrow instead of silly Existential Stalemate II*

Garth

* I reserve the right to retract my 'silly' comment about Existential Stalemate II after seeing screenshot from Cow's friends.

[Kargon]

Sounds like Kargon has SPARE large ingredients? Tinosa has two shards of supreme power, is off timer, and lightning I goggles - maybe discover lightning II tomorrow instead of silly Existential Stalemate II*

Garth

* I reserve the right to retract my 'silly' comment about Existential Stalemate II after seeing screenshot from Cow's friends.

willmaphase can have the one spare arrowmahead kargon have.. after willmaphase give kargon 3 large stones and 1 chain. then we can talk about lightnaming II ;)

[Cambo]

Jus wondering....wat will happen if tier 1 & 2 u get either Tempered(Fire/Water or Water/Fire) or Balance of Land & Sky (Earth/Air or Air/Earth), then at tier 3, u do the opposite, i.e. if tier 2 u get Tempered, tier 3 u'll do Balance of Land & Sky, n vice versa...
In other words,u'll have all 4 elementals foci! wat will u get? :p


Since the idea is to enhance the existing power anything but the same aspect will probably waste the shard. (or at least half of it)
But if someone has plenty of shards and ingredients..Who am I to stop them.

[Keneith]

it is existential stalemate 2... sorry kargon. It is pretty **** uber also.

Wow! this is interesting! Hopefully can see the ingredients soon...
Was also thinking abt +OM/-OM/+OM-OM or -OM/+OM/-OM+OM for accessories
There's a different in the tier outcome for both - & +...cos 1 will give u deathblock while the other regen @ 1hp/15sec...or u get both?

[philo]

more drumrolls...:)

[Cambo]

Originally Posted by Cambo http://ddoimages.turbine.com/forums/images/buttons/orange/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1599289#post1599289)
from the screenshot of the shard and the description it looks like essence and foci can vary (ie as long as they are the right quasi upgrade) but the gem is not mentioned....so would it need to be static between the 2 upgrades.


:confused:
It says "Ethereal Earth Opposition."

I meant the white description text at the bottom. The generic text that applies to all combined shards I assume.
The bit that says EEO is the specific text to this creation. :rolleyes:

http://photos.phase.net/albums/ddo/combinedshard.png

[Kargon]

more drumrolls...:)

first steal kargon tasty ham, then steal kargon tier 3 recimape choice, now steal kargon drumroll joke... WHERE WILL IT END?!?!?! :eek:

[philo]

but its still the same..the drumroll is long and drawn out because of slow guildies =X

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

first steal kargon tasty ham, then steal kargon tier 3 recimape choice, now steal kargon drumroll joke... WHERE WILL IT END?!?!?!


Maybe steal Kargon's large ingredients for Lightning II?

Garth

p.s. drumrolls....

[Kargon]

drumrolls....

Maybe kargon can log on, force willmaphase to give kargon last 4 ingredimients, and complete raid before gets posted. hmmm..... :D

[Big-Dex]

Neil Peart Drum Solo!

Now get with it "slow guildies" ... the suspence is overwhelming...:p

[Cowdenicus]

well here is my new goggles in the mean time Kargon lol.......

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p224/aecowdeniii/ScreenShot00002.jpg

[Kargon]

well here is my new goggles in the mean time Kargon lol.......


Kargon cant help but notimice those are ALSO existentimial stalemamate... grrrrrrrrrrr.. maybe kargon should save kargon the trouble and just put willmaphase on ignore, next few weeks going to be painfumul othermawise...

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

well here is my new goggles in the mean time Kargon lol.......

Silly Cowdenicus, those are just +EE//-EE - where is mysterious third tier upgrade??? :)

Garth

[Cowdenicus]

Silly Cowdenicus, those are just +EE//-EE - where is mysterious third tier upgrade??? :)

Garth

I didnt say I made it, a guildie made it........ I am waiting for a screenshot to snipe.

[Kargon]

I didnt say I made it, a guildie made it........ I am waiting for a screenshot to snipe.

if going anymathing like when willmaphase figure it out, cowdenicus should be spamming 'LESS TYPAMING MORE POSTAMING!!!!ELEVENTYONE!11!'

it work eventuamally, kargon know from experimience.

Othermer idea are to mentimion that ddo forum servermers probamally going to crash any miniminute from all the refreshaming kargon doing right now ;)

[philo]

eh we are raiding again..hes on another character now...slow screenshot guildies will show up after the raid im sure

[Tallyn]

Killing me with suspense.. this is one of the ones I want to see bad! :)

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Maybe kargon can log on, force willmaphase to give kargon last 4 ingredimients, and complete raid before gets posted. hmmm..... :D

Maybe you can now... :)

Garth

[Kargon]

Maybe you can now... :)

Garth

dont think kargon not seriousamally considermering it.... but would need silly willmaphase ingredimients to have chance finimish.

Bah kargon actuamally logged in to check lfms... no shroud :(

[edana]

Big thx to my guildies (The Iron Phalanx in ghallanda) to make this special upgrade possible.

1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE

result
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2594/screenshot00066fh7.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00066fh7.jpg)

more info on this special 3rd combo and test result will be post later

[Cambo]

Big thx to my guildies (The Iron Phalanx in ghallanda) to make this special upgrade possible.

1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE

result
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2594/screenshot00066fh7.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00066fh7.jpg)

more info on this special 3rd combo and test result will be post later

Based on this description and Will's it takes the first shard in the mix combo at he tier 3 effect.

I had hoped for more from this upgrade, but if the % are higher than the slay living etc it would be nice.

PS Great work and thanks for posting

[Borror0]

I'm saying putting Mineral on +/+, not on +/+/+.

I meant +/+ too.

[Keneith]

Big thx to my guildies (The Iron Phalanx in ghallanda) to make this special upgrade possible.

1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE

result
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2594/screenshot00066fh7.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00066fh7.jpg)

more info on this special 3rd combo and test result will be post later


Thxs! Nice work!
Jus need some clarifications....base on the description on Concordant Opposition, it says:
"This item is imbue with the energy of concordant opposition. Those who rest at the pinacle of supreme balance can do nothing but gain. When the wearer of this item is successfully attacked in melee, there is a chance that the item will bestow temporary hit points & grant spell points to the wearer"

Wat i dun understand is the underline statement...wat is the pinacle of supreme balance? Neutral alignment?

[KaKa]

That item is both the Torq of Prince Raiyum and the Bracers if demon consort (Minus the bad) in one item, **** thats nice.

[LeLoric]

Did some tests with Kleio on his goggles, proc seems to be about 1 in 10 it is either sp or hp not both in one proc about 30 points per proc and it does stack with torc. He is lawful good and worked fine not sure if true neutral would get more but i really doubt it.

We have two people working on smoke on items need a few more ingredients will post when we got em.

[Cambo]

Ahh missed the part about the spell points...nice

[Justicesar]

Nice work guys...just a quick question. The process of mixing two shard....can it be done at the 1st and 2nd altar as well. I have a few toons with 2nd tier items. This thread has grown rather large and if it has been stated "NO.... merging of shards at first 2 altars has been tried and it did not work".....I have missed it. Thanks again to all those who share....

[edana]

Here is the process of Concordant Opposition, hoping it will help to answer some of the questions

I wasnt sure that if the shard combine order (+/- or -/+) will effect on the skill bonus item gets. do we get +3 cha skill? +3 int skill? both?. or the negative energy affinity thats already on the item would give us +3 int skill, no matter what order we did. since i want to get the +3 cha skill, so i put the pos shard in the mechine first, then follow by neg shard and cell.

step 1
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9793/screenshot00062qb0.th.jpg (http://img247.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00062qb0.jpg)

step 2
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1512/screenshot00063rn4.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00063rn4.jpg)

step 3
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1473/screenshot00064ms9.th.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00064ms9.jpg)

the result is a shard of supreme power imbued with ethereal positive energy escalation and existential stalemate. item did get the +3 cha skill.
it leads me to believe that 1. the first focus shard will give tier 3 focus effect on the item/weapon, 2. we dont get both focus effect, 3. XXX energy affinity thats already on the item (first tier focus) wont influence tier 3 focus effect.

Then again we are at early stage of discovery, anything is possible :)

The description on the final imbued supreme power shard, it shows existential stalemate.. i wonder if we can get an item/weapon with aspect of XXX and existential stalemate effect (+6 wis, +10 diplomacy, +10 haggle).

One more thing that need Dev's help to clearfy, on Concordant Opposition's description it shows we get sp AND temp hp, but during our testing, we get either/or, some hit we get sp some we get hp. but never both on the same hit. is this a bug??????

[Shade]

1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE

result
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2594/screenshot00066fh7.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00066fh7.jpg)


You know whats really interesting about this item.. It has no existential stalemate on it.. I mean the effect and description itself is gone. Before it seemed like the crafting system was pretty limited in that it could not remove or change effects after they have been added..All you could do is add more.. But this shows thats wrong.

It's also weird that it doesn't list its "concordant oposition" as a seperate effect to existential stalemate II.. I mean so far all the other elemental combo bonuses always listed either an Affinity, An Aspect, or the Mineral one, which just say Mineral - which had no actaul use of effect, it just said what it was. This one pretty much lacks both of those.

And also we see weird effects like when you have imrpoved combustion 6 on a weapon, then you do the same upgraded again and get greater combustion 6.. Yet it just lists both on there, it doesn't change the effect like it should, I mean since the old one is now redundant and doesnt do anything useful.. But the tech should be there since this item removed the existential stalemate and changed it into concoordant oposition.

[Tanka]

The Stalemate is still there with the bonuses it provides, just without the name itself. +6 Wis/+10 Haggle/+10 Diplo.

[MysticTheurge]

It's also weird that it doesn't list its "concordant oposition" as a seperate effect to existential stalemate II.. I mean so far all the other elemental combo bonuses always listed either an Affinity, An Aspect, or the Mineral one, which just say Mineral - which had no actaul use of effect, it just said what it was. This one pretty much lacks both of those.

Balance of Land and Sky lists some bonuses in its description that aren't listed elsewhere on the item (namely the deflection and resistance bonuses).

But it is odd that Existential Stalemate disappeared.

[Agarwaen]

Considering I currently have existential stalemate goggles on my Rogue, I'm pretty bummed by the effect that concordant opposition grants. Almost totally useless to him. I hope it turns out we can put a tier II effect on an item that doesn't have tier I (eg put Magma II on an item without Magma I). I think it is highly unlikely though, so all those ingredients were wasted, and my goggles will probably end up in the trash bin. Loverly.

I wish the devs had not tied +cha skills exclusively to spell points. It's great for umd casters and all, but pretty much leaves UMD rogues out in the cold. But, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that: same ol', same ol'.

But on a brighter note: thanks a million to everyone who has contributed so much information, time and brian power to this thread. Great stuff, and much appreciated! And thanks especially to Garth and edana for dropping those recent bombshells!!!

[MysticTheurge]

Considering I currently have existential stalemate goggles on my Rogue, I'm pretty bummed by the effect that concordant opposition grants. Almost totally useless to him. I sure hope it turns out we can put a tier II effect on an item that doesn't have tier I (eg put Magma II on an item without Magma I). I think it is highly unlikely though, so all those ingredients were wasted, and my goggles will probably end up in the trash bin. Loverly.

I'm really curious to see if Tempered or Balance of Land and Sky can be put on an Existential Stalemate item.

It would maintain the "balance" theme of Existential Stalemate, but might offer different results.

And it would settle for sure whether or not the Aspect has to match the third tier bonus.

[oronisi]

Thxs! Nice work!
Jus need some clarifications....base on the description on Concordant Opposition, it says:
"This item is imbue with the energy of concordant opposition. Those who rest at the pinacle of supreme balance can do nothing but gain. When the wearer of this item is successfully attacked in melee, there is a chance that the item will bestow temporary hit points & grant spell points to the wearer"

Wat i dun understand is the underline statement...wat is the pinacle of supreme balance? Neutral alignment?

That's just flavor text. It should not be over-scrutinized.

[Yshkabibble]

Willphase and his guild might not be the first to figure out the riddle of Tier 3, but they were the first to publish their findings and that's what the world will remember. Everyone knows Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Nobody cares that Ruđer Bošković had the same idea 200 years earlier.



Well I do appreciate the info from them. However I fail to see the relativity in comparing this to Einstein.

[Endrik]

Well I do appreciate the info from them. However I fail to see the relativity in comparing this to Einstein.

Heh. Relativity. You're funny.

[Hendrik]

I told you someone else was making it.

Make Magma II - that sounds MUCH more interesting! :)

Garth

Hope to be on that one real soon Garth!

;)

Hope what we spoke about pans out for this.

*crosses fingers*

[Mad_Bombardier]

As an update to the 30% Healing, the Finger Necklace DOES stack. Heal scrolls were doing 275 supposedly after equipping it, 260 without.Ok, so it's stacking somewhere, but I'm still trying to figure out where. I can't place the extra 15 HP. :confused: Any thoughts?

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 260
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.4 = 280 (so, not adding together with Healing Amp30% or ImpReco3)
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.1 = 285 (so, not multipliying by itself)

[EspyLacopa]

Ok, so it's stacking somewhere, but I'm still trying to figure out where. I can't place the extra 15 HP. :confused: Any thoughts?

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 260
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.4 = 280 (so, not adding together with Healing Amp30% or ImpReco3)
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.1 = 285 (so, not multipliying by itself)

hmmmm.

110 * 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 278

[nbhs275]

Now i really wanna see what land and sky does once you complete it. If it actually makes a +5 protection +5 resistance item, then it will be a very sought after combo.

[Mad_Bombardier]

hmmmm.

110 * 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 278I had that one listed, then said no. There's no way a recipient bonus, Finger Necklace is going to be stacked in with the caster based enhancement, Wand and Scroll Mastery.

[EspyLacopa]

I had that one listed, then said no. There's no way a recipient bonus, Finger Necklace is going to be stacked in with the caster based enhancement, Wand and Scroll Mastery.

And yet, it fits with the in game results listed. (275 with it on)

*shrug*

Sure it's wierd.

[Kargon]

Ok, so it's stacking somewhere, but I'm still trying to figure out where. I can't place the extra 15 HP. :confused: Any thoughts?

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 260
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.4 = 280 (so, not adding together with Healing Amp30% or ImpReco3)
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 * 1.1 = 285 (so, not multipliying by itself)

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 + 0.1*110 = 271... hmmm closermer....

[Mad_Bombardier]

Now i really wanna see what land and sky does once you complete it. If it actually makes a +5 protection +5 resistance item, then it will be a very sought after combo.I can see it being Greater Stability or Superior Stability. My money is on Greater with no requirement for TN alignment.

+2/+2 Stability on random loot
+3/+3 (Improved Stability) on Balance of Land and Sky items - does not require TN.
+4/+4 Greater Stability on Antithesis robe
+5/+5 (Superior Stability) ???

[EspyLacopa]

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 + 0.1*110 = 271... hmmm closermer....
How is it that the Finger Necklace has been in the game since the Orchard was added, and we still don't know how it stacks?

[Gol]

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 + 0.1*110 = 271... hmmm closermer....
110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 260
110 * 1.4 (base + caster benefits only) * 0.1 = 15
260 + 15 = 275 :eek:

edit: advanced math translates this to:
110 * 1.4 * (1.3 * 1.3 + 0.1) = 275

[Mad_Bombardier]

How is it that the Finger Necklace has been in the game since the Orchard was added, and we still don't know how it stacks?Make the Cleric's job easier? pfffft... :p No one wants to devote an item slot to +10% healing.

On my Dwarven Cleric, it stacks thusly: 110 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 133 HP from Heal scroll.
But, as you can see I have no Human ImpRecovery and no Healing Amplification green steel. It's those that cause the problem. Perhaps Kargon can test the Finger Necklace with and without the Green Steel.

[Mad_Bombardier]

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 260
110 * 1.4 (base + caster benefits only) * 0.1 = 15
260 + 15 = 275 :eek:

edit: advanced math translates this to:
110 * 1.4 * (1.3 * 1.3 + 0.1) = 275Nice one Gol. It fits, but I'm not sure why it would stack that way as no other spell does. :confused: I'm waiting on screenshots of Heal scrolls for 275 before any more speculation.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Big thx to my guildies (The Iron Phalanx in ghallanda) to make this special upgrade possible.

1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE



Thanks for posting this. I noticed you put the two imbued shards of power in the order:

[ +EE ] [ -EE ] [ Cell ]

This definitively proves that only one third tier effect gets added to the item at Devastation, and it also proves that it's the leftmost shard you put in whose property is taken. This is shown by the +EE effect (+3 CHA skills, +100 SP) being added rather than the -EE effect ( +3 INT skills, +100 SP). I was unable to confirm this hypothesis with my Khopesh as both shards gave the same (+4 AC) effect so that's new information.

So - for those people crafting para/quasi/special third tier upgrades to items - make sure you put your shards in the right order - only the leftmost shard's effect will be added.

Regards,

Garth

p.s. Also, although the screenshots in the post don't show a power cell in the 'combining shards' process - you do need one.

[EspyLacopa]

Thanks for posting this. I noticed you put the two imbued shards of power in the order:

[ +EE ] [ -EE ] [ Cell ]

This definitively proves that only one third tier effect gets added to the item at Devastation, and it also proves that it's the leftmost shard you put in whose property is taken. This is shown by the +EE effect (+3 CHA skills, +100 SP) being added rather than the -EE effect ( +3 INT skills, +100 SP). I was unable to confirm this hypothesis with my Khopesh as both shards gave the same (+4 AC) effect so that's new information.

So - for those people crafting para/quasi/special third tier upgrades to items - make sure you put your shards in the right order - only the leftmost shard's effect will be added.

Actually, it won't be proven until someone inserts them as:

[ -EE ] [ +EE ] [ Cell ]

And it results in a combined shard that grants +3 Int skills. If it still gives a shard with +3 Cha skills, then the order in fact does not matter.

[UtherSRG]

Quick overview of item creation and upgrade:

1. complete each pre-raid quest, collecting stones
2. craft shavarath signet stone (5 stones)

3. collect 12 vale raw ingredients
4. purchase 4 eberron energy cells
5. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
6. craft green steel blank (3 manufactured ingredients + shavarath signet)

7. collect 12 small ingredients, 1 shard of power
8. purchase/collect 5 low energy cells
9. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
10. imbue shard (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
11. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

12. collect 12 medium ingredients, 1 shard of great power
13. purchase/collect 5 depleted medium energy cells, or collect 5 medium energy cells
14. power up depleted medium energy cells (depleted cell + weapon)
15. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
16. imbue shard (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
17. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

If 1st & 2nd tier upgrade foci match:
18. collect 12 large ingredients, 1 shard of supreme power
19. purchase/collect 5 depleted high energy cells, or collect 5 high energy cells
20. power up depleted high energy cells (depleted cell + weapon)
21. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
22. imbue shard (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
23. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

If 1st & 2nd tier upgrade foci don't match:
18. collect 24 large ingredients, 2 shards of supreme power
19. purchase/collect 10 depleted high energy cells, or collect 10 high energy cells
20. power up depleted high energy cells (depleted cell + weapon)
21. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), six times
22. imbue shard2 (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
23. combine shards (2 shards + energy cell)
24. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

[Gol]

Actually, it won't be proven until someone inserts them as:

[ -EE ] [ +EE ] [ Cell ]

And it results in a combined shard that grants +3 Int skills. If it still gives a shard with +3 Cha skills, then the order in fact does not matter.
Aye, we haven't ruled out the possibility of a dominant focus. It could be dumb luck that both upgrades we've seen had the dominant focus first. We need to see both foci applied at the third tier of a cross-focus upgrade (on different items, obviously) before we can confirm that it is in fact the first item and not a dominant one.

[jjflanigan]

Aye, we haven't ruled out the possibility of a dominant focus. It could be dumb luck that both upgrades we've seen had the dominant focus first. We need to see both foci applied at the third tier of a cross-focus upgrade (on different items, obviously) before we can confirm that it is in fact the first item and not a dominant one.

Or perhaps it is dependent upon the gem / essence used.

[MysticTheurge]

Or perhaps it is dependent upon the gem / essence used.

While all those things seem possible, they also seem unlikely.

My money's on "First in line is the one that counts."

[Inkblack]

Aye, we haven't ruled out the possibility of a dominant focus. It could be dumb luck that both upgrades we've seen had the dominant focus first. We need to see both foci applied at the third tier of a cross-focus upgrade (on different items, obviously) before we can confirm that it is in fact the first item and not a dominant one.

True. But I'm going to assume that programmers under a deadline just want to get things done quickly. (Originally I was going to say they are just as lazy as I am, but this sounds better :D)

I imagine it is easier to assign dominance based on order placed in the altar than it is to assign a hierarchical dominance to all combinations of imbued shards.

Ink

[Missing_Minds]

110 * 1.4 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 260
110 * 1.4 (base + caster benefits only) * 0.1 = 15
260 + 15 = 275 :eek:

edit: advanced math translates this to:
110 * 1.4 * (1.3 * 1.3 + 0.1) = 275

interesting. it is begining to sound that..

total = base heal amound * (product of person casting) * (product of recipient)

[Raidon]

Regarding Para/Quasi/Special Upgrades


I never said that.

If you put Positive on it at stage one, you have quite a number of possibilities open to you at the end.

You have control over the final focus, so for a weaker upgrade you get 6 choices (must have the focus of the first 2).
For the stronger upgrades you will have a choice of 12. Conclusion the first imbued shard determines the great power granted.

[artvan_delet]

Any foreseeable triple shard combo that would work?

[EspyLacopa]

Quick overview of item creation and upgrade:

1. complete each pre-raid quest, collecting stones
2. craft shavarath signet stone (5 stones)

3. collect 12 vale raw ingredients
4. purchase 4 eberron energy cells
5. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
6. craft green steel blank (3 manufactured ingredients + shavarath signet + energy cell)

7. collect 12 small ingredients, 1 shard of power
8. purchase/collect 5 low energy cells
9. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
10. imbue shard (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
11. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

12. collect 12 medium ingredients, 1 shard of great power
13. purchase/collect 1 depleted medium energy cells, or collect 5 medium energy cells
14. power up depleted medium energy cells (depleted cell + weapon/item (+6 or greater bonus required), repeat as needed using same cell as it depletes in proceeding steps)
15. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
16. imbue shard (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
17. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

If 1st & 2nd tier upgrade foci match:
18. collect 12 large ingredients, 1 shard of supreme power
19. purchase/collect 1 depleted high energy cell, or collect 5 high energy cells
20. power up depleted high energy cells (depleted cell + weapon/item (+7 or greater bonus required), repeat as needed using same cell as it depletes in proceeding steps)
21. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), three times
22. imbue shard (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
23. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

If 1st & 2nd tier upgrade foci don't match:
18. collect 24 large ingredients, 2 shards of supreme power
19. purchase/collect 1 depleted high energy cell, or collect 10 high energy cells
20. power up depleted high energy cells (depleted cell + weapon/item (+7 or greater bonus required), repeat as needed using same cell as it depletes in proceeding steps)
21. craft manufactured ingredients (4 raw + energy cells), six times
22. imbue shard2 (3 manufactured ingredients + shard + energy cell)
23. combine shards (2 shards + energy cell)
24. upgrade green steel (green steel + shard + energy cell)

Modifiers in red, to help clarify. Energy cells used are not consumed: they simply become Depleted Cells. If you have bad luck finding them, you can simply use depleted cells and recharge them as you go. Also added the fact that you do need an Energy Cell to craft the actual item to begin with.

[Mad_Bombardier]

interesting. it is begining to sound that..

total = base heal amound * (product of person casting) * (product of recipient)hehe, product * product = product. It's called the Associative property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associative).

I did the following baselines on myself. 110 (base scroll), 1.1 (WSM1), 150 (base Heal), 1.4 (LM4), 1.9 (LM4 + SupPot), 1.5 (Empower Healing), and 1.1 (Finger Necklace).

133 = 110 * 1.1 * 1.1

210 = 150 * 1.4
231 = 150 * 1.4 * 1.1
295 = 150 * 1.9
313 = 150 * 1.9 * 1.1

315 = 150 * 1.4 * 1.5
346 = 150 * 1.4 * 1.5 * 1.1
427 = 150 * 1.9 * 1.5
469 = 150 * 1.9 * 1.5 * 1.1 ??? (¡anomaly! ...should be 470.25)

I didn't have any Human guildies online, so tested the following. 150 (base), 1.4 (LM4), 1.9 (LM4 + SupPot), 1.5 (Empower Healing), .65 (WF with Healer's Friend I), and .75 (WF Healer's Friend I + Finger Necklace).

136 = 150 * 1.4 * .65
157 = 150 * 1.4 * .75
185 = 150 * 1.9 * .65
213 = 150 * 1.9 * .75

204 = 150 * 1.4 * 1.5 * .65
236 = 150 * 1.4 * 1.5 * .75
277 = 150 * 1.9 * 1.5 * .65
320 = 150 * 1.9 * 1.5 * .75

Finger Necklace was definitely adding in with Healers Friend multiplier. How this works on Humans is still unknown (might be different with mutliplier >1). How it works with Green Steel Healing Amplification is also unknown.

275 = 110 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.3 ??? (¡anomaly! ...should be 280.28)

[Kargon]

Modifiers in red, to help clarify. Energy cells used are not consumed: they simply become Depleted Cells.
Uhh... since when?

Also, kargon was under impressimion only weapamons would charge cells, though kargon not personamally test items like clothiming or jewelmary... hmmm... kargon give that try next time. Kargon sure armor not work though.

[binnsr]

Uhh... since when?

Also, kargon was under impressimion only weapamons would charge cells, though kargon not personamally test items like clothiming or jewelmary... hmmm... kargon give that try next time. Kargon sure armor not work though.
Throwing weapons won't work either -- regardless of the + associated with them.. Was looking for an easy way to get rid of those +5 frost throwing hammers of deception that I always pull in the Raid.

Having only crafted 2 tier1/2 combos so far, my experience is limited, but I distinctly remember burning through my medium power cells and not having a stack of depleted ones in my inventory at the end.

[Aspenor]

Uhh... since when?

Also, kargon was under impressimion only weapamons would charge cells, though kargon not personamally test items like clothiming or jewelmary... hmmm... kargon give that try next time. Kargon sure armor not work though.

I've tried jewelry and clothing Kargon, neither of them would go on the altar.

I went in and had to do another run to the 2nd altar after crafting all my ingredients. I had to go buy a +7 weapon off the AH just in case I didn't pull anything that fulfilled the reqs.

[stockwizard5]

... Conclusion the first imbued shard determines the great power granted.

So your conclusion is that EDN/MEP/EDP+MEN would give the MEN Upgrade because the Ns match? I have a sinking feeling that this was not an ideal implementation for determining the 3rd upgrade (aspect version) - really should get both since the power of both is in the combined shard, it would be way simpler to understand, and give us even cooler stuff :)

[binnsr]

So your conclusion is that EDN/MEP/EDP+MEN would give the MEN Upgrade because the Ns match? I have a sinking feeling that this was not an ideal implementation for determining the 3rd upgrade (aspect version) - really should get both since the power of both is in the combined shard, it would be way simpler to understand, and give us even cooler stuff :)
/gets out picket sign with 'We want our Cooler Stuffs!' and marches around shouting random strike slogans.

Seriously, though, it would be a lot easier for folks to understand if it was the way you're describing .. I've already got guildies that are ready to hang up the crafting hat because things were too complicated before these 3rd tier combinations were discovered (and thats with planner spreadsheets and websites to help them out - we have both in guild now :D)

[vyvy3369]

Finger Necklace was definitely adding in with Healers Friend multiplier. How this works on Humans is still unknown (might be different with mutliplier >1). How it works with Green Steel Healing Amplification is also unknown.
Kargon was on a human character with the 30% Human bonus, 30% Green Steel Healing Amplification, and 10% Finger Necklace when I posted about the 275, and each part individually was working as expected and also stacked. Yes it was odd that the 10% was only off of the original 154 (110 * 1.4 wand/scroll enhancement), but it's still an extra 10%. I don't think we tried Finger Necklace w/o his Green Steel weapon, but I'd assume it would be 215.

[Borror0]

While all those things seem possible, they also seem unlikely.

My money's on "First in line is the one that counts."

Couldn't it be by "deafult", ie always the same for the same foci mix?

If so, it could by "what it's 'closer' to". Mineral is closer to Earth, Lightning to Air. Smoke would be closer to air, etc.

[MysticTheurge]

Couldn't it be by "deafult", ie always the same for the same foci mix?

If so, it could by "what it's 'closer' to". Mineral is closer to Earth, Lightning to Air. Smoke would be closer to air, etc.

It could be. But if I were designing the system I wouldn't see a reason to limit which of the two actual third tier abilities people could get based on which third tier combo ability they wanted.

[Raidon]

So your conclusion is that EDN/MEP/EDP+MEN would give the MEN Upgrade because the Ns match? I have a sinking feeling that this was not an ideal implementation for determining the 3rd upgrade (aspect version) - really should get both since the power of both is in the combined shard, it would be way simpler to understand, and give us even cooler stuff :)

No, to Clarify , i mean the first supreme imbued shard placed in the altar of devastation , when combining 2 supreme imbued shards together. :)

So for your example the Supreme Power Granted would be EDP Only. Furthermore until we have proof that two different Gems/Essences can be used ( which i'm doubting) EDN should be used to upgrade to Existential Stalemate II, not MEN.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Kargon was on a human character with the 30% Human bonus, 30% Green Steel Healing Amplification, and 10% Finger Necklace when I posted about the 275, and each part individually was working as expected and also stacked. Yes it was odd that the 10% was only off of the original 154 (110 * 1.4 wand/scroll enhancement), but it's still an extra 10%. I don't think we tried Finger Necklace w/o his Green Steel weapon, but I'd assume it would be 215.vyvy, thanks for following up. I didn't want to derail this thread anymore, so I moved the discussion to a new thread in Strategy (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1600797#post1600797). Gol's calculation has merit. But, I can't test without a Healing Amp Green Steel. I'd love to see the results for healing kargon with Finger necklace and no Green Steel. :)

[oronisi]

Couldn't it be by "deafult", ie always the same for the same foci mix?

If so, it could by "what it's 'closer' to". Mineral is closer to Earth, Lightning to Air. Smoke would be closer to air, etc.

That's all just your opinion though...to me lightning would be closer to positive, since lightning is just energy, not air (wind). It's most likely the first in gets used as that's simple and efficient and removes the need for yet another lookup table during crafting.

[jjflanigan]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar -- Earth + Pos + Cell should (and I'll bet 5 small ingredients is) the same as Pos + Earth + Cell. Which leaves something else being used to determine which is the dominant aspect during the tier 3 combine. Either something always wins out (i.e. Earth always beats Positive) {which I doubt} or you can control it by a specific use of gem / essence when making the two sub-shards.

Granted, until someone performs an already done upgrade (using the same gem, essence and focus) and has the only difference being the order in which they are placed in the altar when fused, we won't know for sure.

[MysticTheurge]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar -- Earth + Pos + Cell should (and I'll bet 5 small ingredients is) the same as Pos + Earth + Cell. Which leaves something else being used to determine which is the dominant aspect during the tier 3 combine. Either something always wins out (i.e. Earth always beats Positive) {which I doubt} or you can control it by a specific use of gem / essence when making the two sub-shards.

Granted, until someone performs an already done upgrade (using the same gem, essence and focus) and has the only difference being the order in which they are placed in the altar when fused, we won't know for sure.

Sure it makes sense from those perspectives:

Programming - Locate first shard, this is your base. If there's a second shard, compare focuses with the base shard and add an "aspect" to the base shard as appropriate.

Game - This is pretty much the same except you're just absorbing one shard into the other. It may not really provide a reason why one shard is the base and the other is subsumed, but it logically makes sense for it to happen.

In addition, and more importantly for me, it makes sense from a game balance/crafting perspective. Why would you make it so that certain Aspect II combinations can only be made with specific combinations of Tier III abilities? If I'm going to let them make an Ooze II weapon why would I force them to only be able to select EOE or WDM or whatever, as opposed to all the earth and water Tier III abilities that are available?

[EspyLacopa]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar -- Earth + Pos + Cell should (and I'll bet 5 small ingredients is) the same as Pos + Earth + Cell. Which leaves something else being used to determine which is the dominant aspect during the tier 3 combine. Either something always wins out (i.e. Earth always beats Positive) {which I doubt} or you can control it by a specific use of gem / essence when making the two sub-shards.

Granted, until someone performs an already done upgrade (using the same gem, essence and focus) and has the only difference being the order in which they are placed in the altar when fused, we won't know for sure.

If order does matter, it means that the number of potential combinations for the Tier 3 upgrade will go from to 36 up to 216 combos. 21 basic combo effects, however the order matters for deciding which is the dominant focus. That means, not counting Pure Focus combos (of which there are 6), that'd give 30 Focus combos. Toss in 2 Essences for each, and then 3 Gems for each, and that would give an effective number of 180 combos, along with the 36 basic tier three upgrades.

so. . .That means there's 279,936 different combinations, double that to include both Weapons and Accessories. (559,872)

[EspyLacopa]

Sure it makes sense from those perspectives:

Programming - Locate first shard, this is your base. If there's a second shard, compare focuses with the base shard and add an "aspect" to the base shard as appropriate.

Game - This is pretty much the same except you're just absorbing one shard into the other. It may not really provide a reason why one shard is the base and the other is subsumed, but it logically makes sense for it to happen.

In addition, and more importantly for me, it makes sense from a game balance/crafting perspective. Why would you make it so that certain Aspect II combinations can only be made with specific combinations of Tier III abilities? If I'm going to let them make an Ooze II weapon why would I force them to only be able to select EOE or WDM or whatever, as opposed to all the earth and water Tier III abilities that are available?

Ah yes, game balance:

Morningstar with +6 Charisma(+EE), +6 Wisdom(Any Negative on second Tier for Existential Stalemate), and then do a combined Shard: (AEE)with (EEE) for a +2 Exceptional bonus to Charisma and Wisdom. Net item of +8 Cha and Wisdom, and possibly +2 Insight AC if the Second Tier Negative goes (-EO).

[SneakThief]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar

It makes perfect sense from a programming perspective. Loop through the items in the window. If its a power cell, register power cell present. If its an imbued shard: If there was no previous one, assign as primary; If there was a previous one and they dont combine fail, else assign secondary. If there are extra ingredients, fail. After the loop: If there is no power cell or no secondary, fail. Add combo attribute (Para/Quasi/Spec) to primary. Return Primary.

It eliminates the need for a lookup for which one it should use. It eliminates defining out a list of shards that have to be run through for each combo. It eliminates defining effects for each combo. AND it adds flexibilty for the users.

That said ... I will be doing a Neg/Pos shard in 8 more ingredients.

[MysticTheurge]

Ah yes, game balance:

Morningstar with +6 Charisma(+EE), +6 Wisdom(Any Negative on second Tier for Existential Stalemate), and then do a combined Shard: (AEE)with (EEE) for a +2 Exceptional bonus to Charisma and Wisdom. Net item of +8 Cha and Wisdom, and possibly +2 Insight AC if the Second Tier Negative goes (-EO).

???

I'm not saying you should be able to get both abilities. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to restrict people to a specific ability.

Why would it require you to make +2 charisma/Existential Stalemate II shard and not allow +2 intelligence/Existential Stalemate II shard?

[jjflanigan]

It makes perfect sense from a programming perspective. Loop through the items in the window. If its a power cell, register power cell present. If its an imbued shard: If there was no previous one, assign as primary; If there was a previous one and they dont combine fail, else assign secondary. If there are extra ingredients, fail. After the loop: If there is no power cell or no secondary, fail. Add combo attribute (Para/Quasi/Spec) to primary. Return Primary.

It eliminates the need for a lookup for which one it should use. It eliminates defining out a list of shards that have to be run through for each combo. It eliminates defining effects for each combo. AND it adds flexibilty for the users.

That said ... I will be doing a Neg/Pos shard in 8 more ingredients.

I suppose we'll see when you do it, however I still maintain that order won't be the deciding factor :) Of course, I don't know for sure, since I've not had a chance to play with the altar of devestation at all, but from everything I've seen so far, order controlling the outcome just doesn't appear to mesh for me.

[Cambo]

If order does matter, it means that the number of potential combinations for the Tier 3 upgrade will go from to 36 up to 216 combos. 21 basic combo effects, however the order matters for deciding which is the dominant focus. That means, not counting Pure Focus combos (of which there are 6), that'd give 30 Focus combos. Toss in 2 Essences for each, and then 3 Gems for each, and that would give an effective number of 180 combos, along with the 36 basic tier three upgrades.

so. . .That means there's 279,936 different combinations, double that to include both Weapons and Accessories. (559,872)

Not all combinations are available for all aspect II effects....Im not going to try and do the math but it should reduce the numbers some what.

[Tanka]

I'm rather curious to find out what the Pos/Air combo is for a weapon.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm rather curious to find out what the Pos/Air combo is for a weapon.While the individual upgrades for Air/Air/Air are Shock, the bonus effects are Haste and knockdown for tier2 and tier3.
We know that Pos/Air = Aspect of Lightning at tier2/Subjugation, so definitely something Lightning oriented for tier3/Devastation. Now we just need some enterprising crafter to discover it! :)

[Justicesar]

So if you were going for the line that gives you earth grab...E/D/M line...is that the best it can be or could you fuse 2 shards at 3 to get something else along with earth grab????

[Ironwind]

Rather than making the assumption that the order the Imbued Shards of Supreme Power are placed into the altar will generate the tier 3 effect, why not consider that it is the order in which tier 1 and tier 2 were enchanted?

Edana used this combination:
1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE

So, perhaps, the 2nd tier aspect determines the 3rd tier aspect.
After all, we know that the altar of subjugation is more powerful than the altar of invasion.
So, the item has more positive aspect than negative.

Just a thought.

Props to Edana for sharing with the rest of the community.

[Tanka]

While the individual upgrades for Air/Air/Air are Shock, the bonus effects are Haste and knockdown for tier2 and tier3.
We know that Pos/Air = Aspect of Lightning at tier2/Subjugation, so definitely something Lightning oriented for tier3/Devastation. Now we just need some enterprising crafter to discover it! :)
Yup. It may be me, but I'm crafting Holy/Holy/Holy first because I'm weird (and want a better undead basher for Cursed Crypt runs).

If I can get enough ingredients and some guild aid, I may give it a shot. Assuming nobody else reaches for it first.

[EspyLacopa]

So if you were going for the line that gives you earth grab...E/D/M line...is that the best it can be or could you fuse 2 shards at 3 to get something else along with earth grab????
Earthgrab is what you get for going pure Earth on a Weapon.

You could go say, EME/EMD/EEO, and get +6 Con, Acid Burst, and +4 Insight AC, as well as the earth ellie clickie and earthgrab.

[Naso24]

Another possibility is it looks at the second upgrade, and that is the dominant focus. It is consistent with the results we have seen so far.

1) Neg
2) Pos
3) Pos-Neg

1) Positive
2) Earth
3) Earth-Positive (same results either way, +4 AC)

I'm guessing the shard order is what determines the third dominant focus, but just wanted to point out the alternative possibility.

[Ironwind]

For the record, I am working on two items.

Green Steel Short Sword
Altar of Invasion :: Fire Escalation Material (completed)
Altar of Subjugation :: Earth Dominion Material (completed)
Aspect of Magma
Altar of Devastation :: Fire Escalation Material & Earth Dominion Material
It will be interesting to see whether I get Fire or Earth as the Tier 3 power.

Green Steel Gloves
Altar of Invasion :: Air Escalation Ethereal (waiting on a shard to drop)
Altar of Subjugation :: Positive Escalation Ethereal (just need tier 1 shard to drop)
Aspect of Lightning
Altar of Devastation :: Air Escalation Ethereal & Positive Escalation Ethereal
Both tier 3 bonuses are the same; so will be unable to determine any significance of order.

[Riggs]

One thing to consider is that positive and negative foci/planes are modifiers of others. By themselves, they create a specific effect, or mixed, they modify another effect. Fire/air/earth/water are bound effects, i.e. they are concrete manifestations based on one element. Positive and Negative are pure energy, but when mixed with an element become part of the element and modify it.

So, all positive gives an effect based on the pure energy involved, but mixing one with an element creates the quasi element, So a quasi element the dominant feature is the element, with a modifier of pos/neg. The implication is that any tier 3 effect will be based only on the element it is combined with, not whether you can 'get more positive in your mineral'.

There seems to be two conflicting possibilities here;

One, there is only one path to upgrade special mixed foci as seemed to be said by Eladrin, get Magma I, there is only one way to get Magma II. So regardless of what order the tier 3 are mixed, as long as you have the two previous elements you get the next step.

Two, Eladrin also said that going Positive first opens up many possibilities. This would imply that in addition to the para/quasi upgrades....there is another set of simliar upgrades depending on whether tier 1 was positive or an element. If this is true, at the very least it doubles the number of possible upgrade paths.

So Pos + Earth + Pos/Earth is (A), and Earth + Pos + Pos/Earth (or Earth/Pos) is (B).

If the order matters, that means there is 36 type A upgrades, and 36 type B upgrades. If the order does not matter, then there is only 21 upgrade paths. Not counting any gem/essence possibilities.

[Kargon]

Yup. It may be me, but I'm crafting Holy/Holy/Holy first because I'm weird (and want a better undead basher for Cursed Crypt runs).

If I can get enough ingredients and some guild aid, I may give it a shot. Assuming nobody else reaches for it first.

Now that kargon pos/neg/pos+neg got discovermered alreadamy (grrr) kargon considermering making a pos/air/pos+air warhammermer... IF kargon can get willmaphase to give kargon a blank green steel warhammermer, since willmaphase pushing kargon so much to discovermer somemathing new ;)

[oronisi]

Another possibility is it looks at the second upgrade, and that is the dominant focus. It is consistent with the results we have seen so far.

1) Neg
2) Pos
3) Pos-Neg

1) Positive
2) Earth
3) Earth-Positive (same results either way, +4 AC)

I'm guessing the shard order is what determines the third dominant focus, but just wanted to point out the alternative possibility.

That's not a possibility, as it requires the greensteel item to calculate the tier 3 upgrade. The imbuded (and combined) shard has the results of the fusion right on it. This shows us that the tier 3 upgrade is determined before you even touch the greensteel tier 2 item.

[Gornn]

What do we suspect would happen if you built the following weapon

+/+ and then tried to combine positive and earth on altar 3?

[Tanka]

Now that kargon pos/neg/pos+neg got discovermered alreadamy (grrr) kargon considermering making a pos/air/pos+air warhammermer... IF kargon can get willmaphase to give kargon a blank green steel warhammermer, since willmaphase pushing kargon so much to discovermer somemathing new ;)
Beaten to the punch by Kargon! Blast!

Oh well. At least it's Kargon and not Garth. :p

[Bloodyfury]

First, I'm wondering if we couldn't get something very special with the 4 elements on the same weapon. :rolleyes:

With Existential Stalemate, we get something special for "a perfect balance" between + and -.

I'm thinking that the 4 elements on the same weapon could gives something great, as it should also represents a perfect balance between the 4 elements. I'm thinking about something like this:
(I don't care about gem or essence as it mainly depends of your class and build, I'm just talking about elements here)

Tier 1: Fire
Tier 2: Air

That would gives Aspect of Smoke / Displacement X2

Then add at Tier 3: the Aspect of Ooze (Water + Earth)

You would end up with the 4 elements on the weapon/item. I do hope that mixing two different Aspects should gives something cool. It would sure increase the possible recipes available (tho I've no idea if we're near the 1200 reported by Devs with what we know yet).

---------------------------

My other point is rather a question...

I'm seriously thinking about crafting the Aspect of Ooze as Tier 1-2 and add it again at Tier 3. I'm surely not the only one to think it *should* gives something like Wounding or maybe Puncturing? :p Surely not both but one or the other would be great with all the other enhancements on it.

[MrCow]

I'm seriously thinking about crafting the Aspect of Ooze as Tier 1-2 and add it again at Tier 3. I'm surely not the only one to think it *should* gives something like Wounding or maybe Puncturing?

My guess would be something along the same lines, but instead implemented as a DC 30 Poison/Contagion.

[edana]

Here is something to think about.

At Altar of Invasion I use Neg Foucs
At Altar of Subjugation I use Pos Focus
Result on the item = Neg Energy Affinity
(first focus shows on the item)

At Altar of Devastation combine 2 imbued shard
1st shard pos focus
2nd shard Neg focus
Result on the combine imbued shard shows = POS ENERGY with Existential Stalemate
(first focus shows on the shard)
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/3228/screenshot00064tt7.th.jpg (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00064tt7.jpg)

What if we put Neg first? do we get a Shard thats imbued with Neg Energy and Existential Stalemate? or Still Pos Energy?

Hmm... more test need to be done ><

[Keneith]

Here is something to think about.

At Altar of Invasion I use Neg Foucs
At Altar of Subjugation I use Pos Focus
Result on the item = Neg Energy Affinity
(first focus shows on the item)

At Altar of Devastation combine 2 imbued shard
1st shard pos focus
2nd shard Neg focus
Result on the combine imbued shard shows = POS ENERGY with Existential Stalemate
(first focus shows on the shard)
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/3228/screenshot00064tt7.th.jpg (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00064tt7.jpg)

What if we put Neg first? do we get a Shard thats imbued with Neg Energy and Existential Stalemate? or Still Pos Energy?

Hmm... more test need to be done ><


Interesting! hmmm....not concordant opposition but existential stalemate??
So, wat did u get at the end? wat is the description on the item itself?

[sheldie]

Now that kargon pos/neg/pos+neg got discovermered alreadamy (grrr)

But wasn't that discovery made on an item and weren't you looking to make your upgrades on a weapon? Or did I misunderstand?

[Cambo]

Interesting! hmmm....not concordant opposition but existential stalemate??
So, wat did u get at the end? wat is the description on the item itself?

The initial find for this was the same the shard was "existential stalemate" but the item became "concordant opposition".
I dont think there is a "concordant opposition" shard.

[Keneith]

The initial find for this was the same the shard was "existential stalemate" but the item became "concordant opposition".
I dont think there is a "concordant opposition" shard.

O...thxs for the info..i'll check back again jus to double confirm..cos im oso intending of making a bracers wif concordant opposition..:p

[Kargon]

But wasn't that discovery made on an item and weren't you looking to make your upgrades on a weapon? Or did I misunderstand?

no was going to be on goggamels for silly rangermer so kargon can cast levamel 3-4 spells without having to cast owls wisdom first

[LeLoric]

My best guess is that either the first tier foci or 2nd tier foci determines the effect of the third. To have it be which is first when all other altars care not is just not a good idea. I know eladrin said the third altar doesnt work the same as the rest but I dont think it was meant in this way its just way too counterintuitive.

[Eudimio]

I'm seriously thinking about crafting the Aspect of Ooze as Tier 1-2 and add it again at Tier 3. I'm surely not the only one to think it *should* gives something like Wounding or maybe Puncturing? :p Surely not both but one or the other would be great with all the other enhancements on it.

Hey Bloody,

I was planning on making a tempered/tempered weapon, but I figured someone else would beat me to it. Given what we've seen so far, assuming a vorpal or puncturing/enfeebleing/bonebreaking (depending on weapon) would not be a bad guess.

My next two thoughts were ooze/ooze or smoke/smoke. I settled on smoke, but I'm glad to see you're gonna try ooze. My guess for tier 3 ooze bonus is everbright (VERY likely), and paralyzing.

As for smoke, I'm hoping that it produces some kind of blinding effect. My main is a strength-based rogue, and that would be a very fine weapon for him. I might not even miss my siroccos much anymore.

Either way, those two aspects produce very nice clickies, so all will not be lost if the effects aren't desirable.

I have all of the materials for this weapon, save 5 large ingredients (most of them shrapnels, lol). I think completing both of our recipes will help fill in the blanks and still produce nice weapons if the end result isn't as expected.

[AEschyl]

so based off of this logic... would this combination make sense?

First tier:
Material + Dominion + Positive

Second tier:
Material + Dominion + Positive

Third tier:
Material + Dominion + Positive
Ethereal + Opposition + Positive

[Keneith]

so based off of this logic... would this combination make sense?

First tier:
Material + Dominion + Positive

Second tier:
Material + Dominion + Positive

Third tier:
Material + Dominion + Positive
Ethereal + Opposition + Positive

I dun think this will work, cos its all Positive, so at tier 3, u only get 1 of the effects, not 2.
So, its as gd as +/+/+, which gives u True Ressurrection clickie.
Then again....u can still try it out n see whether is there any other effect if u put 2 positives in 1 Shard of Supreme Power...

Any1 going for Aspect of Radiance? I'll b going for tat. Already got my Tier 1 for Positive, next is to get Tier 2 Fire for the Aspect of Radiance. Still collecting medium ingredients though....mayb quite a while till i can get all the ingredients...
Hopefully some1 can try this before i does. :p

[zoot_suiter]

Do we know for sure that only 3rd level shards can be combined? Has anybody tried combining two level 1 or level 2 shards?

[Gol]

Do we know for sure that only 3rd level shards can be combined? Has anybody tried combining two level 1 or level 2 shards?
Yes on both counts.

[MysticTheurge]

I dun think this will work, cos its all Positive, so at tier 3, u only get 1 of the effects, not 2.

It'd be worth trying, though, if someone has enough ingredients.

You never know if Pos - Pos - Pos/Pos will produce a more powerful effect than Pos - Pos - Pos.

(And it seems like that the worst thing that could happen is you'd lose an energy cell and still have your two positive shards, which could then be reused for other items.)

[Raidon]

Well we tried a proper third upgrade:

Ethereal Escalation Air Imbued Supreme Shard + Ethereal Escalation Earth Imbued supreme shard = Ethereal Escalation Earth Imbude supreme shard with Balance of Land and sky.

This Final Combined Shard was added to some Balance of land/sky I goggles. NO SPECIAL EFFECT WAS SEEN - 24 Large ingredients etc wasted.

One important note : The Air shard was placed in first, the earth second , and the resultant land/sky shard had the earth focus.



Warning to all Land/Sky II maybe bugged, Eladrin can you please investigate this

[Auran82]

Did you happen to check your saves/ac wearing those goggles with no ac/save item on? Also, did the text for balance of land and sky change? (where it says +3 saves, +3 AC)

[studentx]

Well we tried a proper third upgrade:

Ethereal Escalation Air Imbued Supreme Shard + Ethereal Escalation Earth Imbued supreme shard = Ethereal Escalation Earth Imbude supreme shard with Balance of Land and sky.

This Final Combined Shard was added to some Balance of land/sky I goggles. NO SPECIAL EFFECT WAS SEEN - 24 Large ingredients etc wasted.

One important note : The Air shard was placed in first, the earth second , and the resultant land/sky shard had the earth focus.



Warning to all Land/Sky II is obviously bugged, Eladrin can you please investigate this

Hey Raidon,

What was your first altar upgrade and second altar upgrades?

[MysticTheurge]

One important note : The Air shard was placed in first, the earth second , and the resultant land/sky shard had the earth focus.

Interesting. And you got the earth-version of the third tier effect?

[UtherSRG]

Well we tried a proper third upgrade:

One important note : The Air shard was placed in first, the earth second , and the resultant land/sky shard had the earth focus.


Interesting. And you got the earth-version of the third tier effect?

And what were the 1st and 2nd tier elements?

[jjflanigan]

Interesting. And you got the earth-version of the third tier effect?

Woo...it's inching towards me being right ever so slowly!!! ;) (sorry, just carefree ribbing)

[MysticTheurge]

Woo...it's inching towards me being right ever so slowly!!! ;) (sorry, just carefree ribbing)

Hush up you!

;) :D

[Raidon]

1st upgrade material escalation earth
2nd upgrade ethereal escalation air
3rd upgrade ( ethereal escalation air )+ (ethereal escalation earth) = ethereal escalation earth / Land/Sky

http://stormlords.net/crafting/images/balance2.jpg

So either it is bugged or the supreme upgrade earth shard should have been material escalation earth :(
The combined shard did have land/sky on it , so it seems strange it didn't upgrade fully.

saves , reistance , protection, skills all checked with no " hidden bonus' "

[Ikuryo]

I was going to suggest that we test the + + tier 3 combine using different types(+ED, +MD for example) but then realized that we would not have any idea if it failed, why it had failed. Either + + not working or different gem/essence not working.

So this post is basically a waste of time..

[studentx]

1st upgrade material escalation earth
2nd upgrade ethereal escalation air
3rd upgrade ( ethereal escalation air )+ (ethereal escalation earth) = ethereal escalation earth / Land/Sky

http://stormlords.net/crafting/images/balance2.jpg

So either it is bugged or the supreme upgrade earth shard should have been material escalation earth :(
The combined shard did have land/sky on it , so it seems strange it didn't upgrade fully.

saves , reistance , protection, skills all checked with no " hidden bonus' "

Maybe the missing material, but if that were the case one would assume that the supreme power shards would not have combined to a single Land/Sky. I'd say this is buggered. ;)

[Eladrin]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

[Gol]

Well we tried a proper third upgrade:

Ethereal Escalation Air Imbued Supreme Shard + Ethereal Escalation Earth Imbued supreme shard = Ethereal Escalation Earth Imbude supreme shard with Balance of Land and sky.

This Final Combined Shard was added to some Balance of land/sky I goggles. NO SPECIAL EFFECT WAS SEEN - 24 Large ingredients etc wasted.

One important note : The Air shard was placed in first, the earth second , and the resultant land/sky shard had the earth focus.
Well, I'd argue you only wasted 12 as you got the standard tier 3 property anyway, but I agree it sucks.

Perhaps the tier 3 shards have to be the same as the respective tier 1/2 shards? And I've been arguing for a "Dominant" focus since Will posted his info, but noooooo that couldn't be right, now could it? :p

[Raidon]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

Thankyou For your speedy response Eladrin. Oh well taking one for the research . Good to know.

[studentx]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

*blink* Really, but existential stale mate does have an upgrade path, so maybe tempered should be used to compliment the balance of land and sky? Or positive and negative?

[Gol]

*blink* Really, but existential stale mate does have an upgrade path, so maybe tempered should be used to compliment the balance of land and sky?I think it has more to do with the non-focus components of his shards.

[Shade]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

Guess that one is more complex, Because logically.. You can't add more balance to whats already balanced.. But you could add another 2 elements to the balance.

So try water + fire.

Balance of Land, Sky, Sea and Lava

[Missing_Minds]

1st upgrade material escalation earth
2nd upgrade ethereal escalation air
3rd upgrade ( ethereal escalation air )+ (ethereal escalation earth) = ethereal escalation earth / Land/Sky



An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

crud... It would appear that your doing material on the stage one killed you getting the upgrade.

The previous concordant use EE the entier way. You went ME, then EE and EE. What do you bet you have to stay the same focuse the entier way? *sigh* well.. that is rather disappointing. So much for what I've been working on to get what I wanted. At least it won't be a complete waste.

[Shade]

I think it has more to do with the non-focus components of his shards.

That would suck. Because it very much limits the system. Highly doubt this.

He did a pretty popular and standard upgrade, spell points and some hitpoints, no wiz 6 cuz he probably has it on another item. I mean that is exactly the one most casters are gonna want, explananing it simply as nope casters can't get balance of land and sky II on what they want isn't a good answer.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Guess that one is more complex, Because logically.. You can't add more balance to whats already balanced.. But you could add another 2 elements to the balance.

So try water + fire.

Balance of Land, Sky, Sea and Lava

That's my guess as well. Balance of Land and Sky is upgraded with Fire and Water.

[Shade]

crud... It would appear that your doing material on the stage one killed you getting the upgrade.


Really not understanding how you came to that conclusion. Willphase also mixed materia and ethereal. His upgrade worked.

And so far, every possible mix of 3 of the same elements, mixing gems and ethereal/material in every combo has also worked.

Does not make sense to vary from that for this.

[UtherSRG]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

So.... does the combined 3rd shard have to be made from exactly what the first 2 shards were made from, or can there be some variation?

We already know that the foci of the 1st 2 shards matters (of course). We see now that essence matters to some degree.

Possibilities:
1. Yes (MON//EDP requires 3rd shard to be MON/EDP)

2. No, only the foci and essence matter (MON//EDP allows 3rd shard to be MEN/EEP)

3. No, as long as the total combination of gems/essences/foci are contained in the combined shard, it doesn't matter what the composition of the combining shards are. (MON//EDP allows 3rd shard to be MDP/EON)

[Mavnimo]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

I response like this leads me to believe that there is only one path to upgrade an item using the diffent foci. for example
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/Mavnimo/NegPosBracers.jpg

I wanted to go -OM/+EE/(+EE/-EE). which i would have thought to give the above with +3 to cha skills, greater elemental spell power and the Concordant Opposition. But if it doesn't then I would hate to use 24 large ingredients to give me something that can be done with 12. Another thought would be if i followed the same line and went -OM/+EE(+EE/-OM). would that result in the combination i wanted?

If this is the case I wouldn't mind a Scrapping machine installed to get back some of the ingredients used. It's hard enough trying to get all these ingredients using multiple characters. I feel bad for those with only 1 character trying to experiment with the crafting. They will get 1 shot at an item every 2 months give or take.

[Missing_Minds]

Really not understanding how you came to that conclusion. Willphase also mixed materia and ethereal. His upgrade worked.

And so far, every possible mix of 3 of the same elements, mixing gems and ethereal/material in every combo has also worked.

Does not make sense to vary from that for this.

Given how many posts have been done after Willphase posted, it isn't th easiest to find. The post I found had him using +EE and EE. No material, hence how I came to my conclusion. I truly hope that it is not the case and that what matters most is elemental combination and the mixing of the others.

Mixing of M and E with the same element, also results in obvious and useful but not so grand tier 3 upgrades as well. As was hinted at, the obvious (i.e. same element) wasn't going to be absolute best.

The guesswork to update Balance of Land and Sky using Fire and Water... by the same logic, if you did tempered first followed by Balance you should have the same result. By sum of components at least...
Chemicals going through a process can have different outcomes depending on order afterall so maybe temper will still use temper.

[Shade]

Given how many posts have been done after Willphase posted, it isn't th easiest to find. The post I found had him using +EE and EE. No material, hence how I came to my conclusion. I truly hope that it is not the case and that what matters most is elemental combination and the mixing of the others.
He did Positive Material Dominion first - which gave holy. Then Earth Material Domion again, for acid burst. Then the third upgrade he did Etereal Oposition Earth - which gave heighten awareness 4 and the bonus effects for mineral II.
So materieal/material/etereal. 1 different. Googles are materieal/etereal/etereal, 1 different. Same thing basicly.



The guesswork to update Balance of Land and Sky using Fire and Water... by the same logic, if you did tempered first followed by Balance you should have the same result. By sum of components at least...
Chemicals going through a process can have different outcomes depending on order afterall so maybe temper will still use temper.
Thats not the same logic at all.

My logic was clear.. Balance + more blance is still balance.. You can't further balance whats already balanced, which was earth and air. But add 2 more elements which also balance themself out and you have a more advanced balance.

Previous elemental combos are very important to determine later stages, So if balance + fire + water = Balance II... That does NOT mean Tempered + Earth + air = Balance II, that is wrong.

Tempered most likely is simple, Water+ Fire = tempered I
Tempered I + Water + Fire = Tempered II.. (Logic behind that one is if you Temper a sword thats great, its sharper, but temper it further until its perfect and its even sharper still.

[EspyLacopa]

He did Positive Material Dominion first - which gave holy. Then Earth Material Domion again, for acid burst. Then the third upgrade he did Etereal Oposition Earth - which gave heighten awareness 4 and the bonus effects for mineral II.
So materieal/material/etereal. 1 different. Googles are materieal/etereal/etereal, 1 different. Same thing basicly.


Thats not the same logic at all.

My logic was clear.. Balance + more blance is still balance.. You can't further balance whats already balanced, which was earth and air. But add 2 more elements which also balance themself out and you have a more advanced balance.

Previous elemental combos are very important to determine later stages, So if balance + fire + water = Balance II... That does NOT mean Tempered + Earth + air = Balance II, that is wrong.

Tempered most likely is simple, Water+ Fire = tempered I
Tempered I + Water + Fire = Tempered II.. (Logic behind that one is if you Temper a sword thats great, its sharper, but temper it further until its perfect and its even sharper still.
Then what's the point behind having a combined shard with Earth and Air?

[Missing_Minds]

Thats not the same logic at all.

My logic was clear.. Balance + more blance is still balance.. You can't further balance whats already balanced, which was earth and air. But add 2 more elements which also balance themself out and you have a more advanced balance.

Previous elemental combos are very important to determine later stages, So if balance + fire + water = Balance II... That does NOT mean Tempered + Earth + air = Balance II, that is wrong.

Tempered most likely is simple, Water+ Fire = tempered I
Tempered I + Water + Fire = Tempered II.. (Logic behind that one is if you Temper a sword thats great, its sharper, but temper it further until its perfect and its even sharper still.

Ok, I completely forgot about the mineral II that was posted. Thank you for that correction.

As for the logic..emm... yes it is.

(Air+Earth) + (Water+Fire) = (Water+Fire) + (Air+Earth)

Mathematically, it is the same. However, as I stated, chemically it could be different hence why a temper (first) may not necessarily be able to use Balance (second) to get a result of Balance II, even if Balance (first) Temper (two) may.

I wasn't intending that as a poke on how to get to Temper II, just Balance II.

[Shade]

I
I wanted to go -OM/+EE/(+EE/-EE). which i would have thought to give the above with +3 to cha skills, greater elemental spell power and the Concordant Opposition. But if it doesn't then I would hate to use 24 large ingredients to give me something that can be done with 12. Another thought would be if i followed the same line and went -OM/+EE(+EE/-OM). would that result in the combination i wanted?


I think your upgrade will work fine.

On the previous example - his positive focus overrided his negative, so he got +3 cha skills. You would likely get the same. The order of entering the items has never mattered on any crafting at all. Tho you could determine this anyways before you pull the final switch and do it.. Examine your combined shard, it will say the dominate focus.. Tho not much choice besides starting over to use it later on a difference item if its not ideal.

I don't think the gem determines the dominant focus, tho it might. Nor the material.. Altho your material combos are the same as the previous example so it should be fine. (googles were material/ethereal/ethereal same as your plan) Only difference is your gems.

[Missing_Minds]

Then what's the point behind having a combined shard with Earth and Air?

more combinations, if not now, then in the future? man.. that is an ugly throught for current experimentation.

[Gol]

To summarize and analyze:

UPGRADED FULLY:

1 Positive Dominion Material
2 Earth Dominion Material
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

1 negative escalation ethereal
2 positive escalation ethereal
3 positive escalation ethereal + negative escalation ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:

1 earth material escalation
2 air ethereal escalation
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

[Shade]

Ok, I completely forgot about the mineral II that was posted. Thank you for that correction.

As for the logic..emm... yes it is.

(Air+Earth) + (Water+Fire) = (Water+Fire) + (Air+Earth)

Mathematically, it is the same. However, as I stated, chemically it could be different hence why a temper (first) may not necessarily be able to use Balance (second) to get a result of Balance II, even if Balance (first) Temper (two) may.

I wasn't intending that as a poke on how to get to Temper II, just Balance II.

Math doesn't apply here. 4 elements might be one thing, but the crafting system doesn't care about your first 2 elements when you do a third upgrade. It only cares about what affinity and what aspect it has, and it will have a different (and incorrect) one if you do it backwards. Order might not matter in math, but it does here.

If an item has tempered on it, you can only get tempered II. You cannot get balance of land and sky II.
If an item has balance of land and sky on it, you can only get balance of land and sky II.

This is my guess based on Eladrins posting, but seems the simplest and most logical course.

Doing it your way might sound mathimatically sound, but programming wise or logic wise I don't see how it would work.

[smithers]

Then what's the point behind having a combined shard with Earth and Air?

Yes, the idea that land/sky would be upgraded with fire/water is loony.

Although there are three tiers, I believe there needs to be balancing between what you have at 2nd and the two added in the third.

The kopesh was balanced in this way: two shots of material and two shots of ethereal (at third tier). Two shots of dominion and two shots of escalation.

I'm surprised at this extra complexity, and we can't be sure how this is working until more data comes in. However, if you are planning a 12-ingredient (special) upgrade I'd recommend trying to balance these out at both the 2nd and third tiers (possible that you could have mixes at both levels that balance out intotal, but this seems risky too...)

All speculation of course; we need more data.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

[EDIT: I'm wrong about Balance of Earth and Sky, but leaving this up so Kargon can laugh at me. Sorry Eladrin for falsely accusing you of contradicting yourself!]

I am confused as to why people are continually trying to overcomplicate matters!!!

Bear in mind this is based on my own ideas/thoughts so feel free to disagree with me.

Before I proceed let me clarify my nomenclature (and I will bold these terms just to avoid any confusion)

'effect' refers to the effect (e.g. 'Acid' for EDM on a weapon at tier 1, +4 AC at tier 3 for adding FOE) that you get for adding an imbued shard at each tier.
'bonus effect' refers to the extra bonus effect you get for combining elements at tier 2 and tier 3. You always get a bonus effect at tier 2 and these depend on which para, quasi or 'special' (special elemental combinations have been invented by DDO) elemental combination you chose. You only get a bonus effect from tier 3 if you imbue the same para, quasi or 'special' elemental combination at tier 3. If you have already gone fire/fire then it's easy - just add 'fire'. If you have gone fire/earth then you need to add 'magma' by combining a fire imbued shard and an earth imbued shard. Pick any gem/essence you want - this will determine the tier 3 effect, but in the case of combining shards you should make sure the gems/essences are the same, and also pick your effect by putting that shard leftmost in the altar.

There is no evidence at all that gems or essences affect the bonus effects at tier 2 and tier 3 - all they do is change the effect at each tier.

Eladrin has said that there are tier III upgrade paths for all tier 2 quasi/para/special elemental combinations - except, it would appear, Air/Earth, I'm very disappointed with that one, especially as Eladrin previously said all tier II combinations had bonus effects at tier 3. It's just a matter of finding them all. Pick your gems and essences any way you like depending on the effect you want to get at tier 3 - but make sure your gem/essence is the same for the two shards you combine at tier 3 or I don't think the shards will even combine.

The only reason why the Balance of Land and Sky upgrade didn't reveal a bonus effect at tier 3 was because there simply isn't one coded. It wasn't due to any mistake by the person doing it, or any incorrect gems/essences mix. My respect and commiserations to the dude who did it - cos they wasted 24 ingredients - I feel for you. It would be nice if Eladrin could confirm whether there are any dead end upgrades so we don't waste 24 more ingredients - I know of people doing Dust, Smoke, Vacuum and Magma within the next few days - will those all give Bonus Effects at tier III?

All this talk of gems/essences and what you picked at Tier 1 and 2 and other stuff like that is just over complicating matters. The only 'complication' is that the shard order in Devastation appears to matter for the tier 3 effect.

Regards,

Garth

[Gol]

All speculation of course; we need more data.I summarized current data a few posts up.

[MysticTheurge]

Eladrin has said that there are tier III upgrade paths for all tier 2 quasi/para/special elemental combinations - except, it would appear, Air/Earth, I'm very disappointed with that one, especially as Eladrin previously said all tier II combinations had bonus effects at tier 3.

Um, Eladrin said that there is an upgrade path for "Balance of Land and Sky."


An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

Presumably, we just haven't figured out what it is yet.

It does make me a bit more curious to see if +/-/A|E or A/E/+|- is possible.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Um, Eladrin said that there is an upgrade path for "Balance of Land and Sky."
Presumably, we just haven't figured out what it is yet.


Good point. I misread Eladrin. Silly Garth. ermm umm. should I edit my post or continue to look foolish. :) Bah I don't mind being the forum fool for the day, gives Kargon someone to laugh at :)

I wonder what the upgrade path is... I continue to guess whatever it is - it's gem/essence independent (but then I've been wrong already today so what's new, eh?)

Garth

[Raidon]

and also pick your effect by putting that shard leftmost in the altar.

.....

It would be nice if Eladrin could confirm whether there are any dead end upgrades so we don't waste 24 more ingredients -

Garth


I too believed that the leftmost shard determined the tier 3 effect , however when combining the two shards the rightmost one was chosen in my case for the tier 3 effect. (now believes in the dominant element theory)

Eladrin has confirmed in his previous post that there is a successful upgrade from land/sky to land sky II. I am totally confused because the combined shard had "balance of land/sky" on it. There is no reason i can see why this didn't upgrade the item to land/sky II.

Regarding the rest of your post Garth , i agree entirely.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I too believed that the leftmost shard determined the tier 3 effect , however when combining the two shards the rightmost one was chosen in my case for the tier 3 effect. (now believes in the dominant element theory)


Yeah I'm loathed to accept it, because I don't like it - but the dominant element theory does have merit. It would appear that pos trumps both neg and earth, with earth also trumping air. I'm going to look at the ingredient lists for each focus and work out if there is a pattern there.

Garth (still feeling guilty about accusing Eladrin of contradicting himself)

[Yaga_Nub]

Garth (still feeling guilty about accusing Eladrin of contradicting himself)

Eladrin doesn't contradict himself. He mis-remembers what he said before. :)

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Eladrin has confirmed in his previous post that there is a successful upgrade from land/sky to land sky II. I am totally confused because the combined shard had "balance of land/sky" on it. There is no reason i can see why this didn't upgrade the item to land/sky II.

Any chance of posting a screenshot of the combined shard? Did it read something like this:

Ethereal Earth Escalation: This shard has been imbued with the energy of Ethereal Earth Escalation
Balance of Land and Sky: This item has been imbued with the power of Balance of Land and Sky

Garth

[Mad_Bombardier]

Garth (still feeling guilty about accusing Eladrin of contradicting himself)It's okay. I've done it before, too. :o

By the way, that little pang you feel in your gut never really goes away. Sure, it fades with time. But, it'll pop up as a reminder each and every time you want to call Eladrin out on something. I call it, "Eladrin's Revenge." :D

[MysticTheurge]

It's okay. I've done it before, too. :o

By the way, that little pang you feel in your gut never really goes away. Sure, it fades with time. But, it'll pop up as a reminder each and every time you want to call Eladrin out on something. I call it, "Eladrin's Revenge." :D

I find preempting something Eladrin posts to be a good remedy for that. :D

[Mad_Bombardier]

Eladrin has confirmed in his previous post that there is a successful upgrade from land/sky to land sky II. I am totally confused because the combined shard had "balance of land/sky" on it. There is no reason i can see why this didn't upgrade the item to land/sky II.Just thinking a little here, based on Shade's comments above.

We have 6 pure element/energy paths that are easy to upgrade.
We have 8 quasi-elemental paths which require another step, but follow the same path (Aspect of Mineral to Mineral).
Then, we have 4 para-elementals that should also require 2 shards, but should also follow the same path.
Finally, we have 3 special para-elemental/para-energy combos that do not exist in D&D planar lore, Tempered, Balance, Stalemate.

These specials are just that, special. And I think we need to look at what they are before upgrading.

Balance of Land and Sky = Air + Earth.
Tempered = Fire + Water.
Existential = Positive + Negative. Which we have already seen upgraded with Pos+Neg to = Concordant Opposition. That makes sense because there are no other energies to add to the Stalemate.

But, "Balance" and "Tempered" are elemental combos. To achieve greater Balance, it follows that you need to add the other elements. Perhaps, Balance + Tempered = Balance II (some sort of Total Elemental Harmony). The question arises whether Tempered could be similarly upgraded to Balance II by adding Tempered + Balance.

And as Shade suggested, Tempered could be an easy path to Tempered II by adding a Tempered Shard (more Fire and Water), under the logic that tempered metals can be improved by continuing the process.

[Shade]

And as Shade suggested, Tempered could be an easy path to Tempered II by adding a Tempered Shard (more Fire and Water), under the logic that tempered metals can be improved by continuing the process.

Hopefully, but since it's one of the 3 weird ones I'm not really confident in that guess.

I think since existensial stalemate was always just a description of what it does and had no real powers it was easy - just add more stalemate, that worked and changed it into coconrdant oposition - making that useless effect now useful. Altho at the same time I have a small feeling that thats not it, and you can somehow make it even better, thats probably not right tho..

However tempered and balance both have already useful things for there actaul effect name.. Tempered giving more durability and hardness, and balance adding +3 saves/ac. Thus they might be both be difficult and more interesting - I mean the final upgrade probably will improve upon these efects by removing/upgrading them to higher levels. As such I think they might even need 3 supreme shards of power!
Balance of everything heh.. Pos + neg, air + earth and fire + water = Balance of land and sky removed and changed to: Ultimate Elemental balance = +6 resistance to saves +6 deflection AC - incredibly expensive and time consuming, but an extremely powerful effect as the reward.

Tempered might infact need something more difficult as well as its powerup could be equally as impressive. Further durability and hardness increase, material change to Adamantine and vorpal ability added (perhaps banishing for blunt weapons).. Could be a 3 supreme shard upgrade as well.

All other things are "Aspect Of" upgrades and none offer effects based on the aspect, but rather gain other effects in addition to the aspect description.. So they should be straighforward upgrades. Since they can just leave Aspect of mineral on there and it doesn't matter..

I mean it could sorta make sense..
6 Single supreme shard upgrades
13 Double supreme shard upgrades
2 Triple supreme shard upgrades

[Raidon]

Well I got some feedback on this from Eladrin , it appears that the "special" advancement paths are occasionally slightly more complicated than the para- or quasi-elemental combinations.

[Torilin]

So I created +5 will save (Pos) and Improved HP Regen (Pos) goggles. This was actually a mistake but either way the HP regen is not working. It should be 1hp every 30 seconds, yet I have been standing in vale for 10 min with a help ticket and have not regained 1 HP. Does anyone know if this ability is bugged or there is a way to fix items that have been upgraded but are not working properly? Any help would be cool.

[Jaywade]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

umm are there others (aspects that is)that do not posses a 3rd upgrade....I ask casue it would be a shame for others to waste 24 large items .....

[Shade]

So I created +5 will save (Pos) and Improved HP Regen (Pos) goggles. This was actually a mistake but either way the HP regen is not working. It should be 1hp every 30 seconds, yet I have been standing in vale for 10 min with a help ticket and have not regained 1 HP. Does anyone know if this ability is bugged or there is a way to fix items that have been upgraded but are not working properly? Any help would be cool.

It is not bugged.

It functions as positive healing energy, so you must have as least 100% posistive healing or it will not function.

Let me guess, you are a warforged. You can get it to work, but it is very difficult for warforged... As 1 - 50% = 0.5 .. round down for the healing you get.. so 0 per tic.

[Shade]

umm are there others (aspects that is)that do not posses a 3rd upgrade....I ask casue it would be a shame for others to waste 24 large items .....

Others? that one does have one..

So its logical that all tier 2 specials can be upgraded.

[Torilin]

It is not bugged.

It functions as positive healing energy, so you must have as least 100% posistive healing or it will not function.

Let me guess, you are a warforged. You can get it to work, but it is very difficult for warforged... As 1 - 50% = 0.5 .. round down for the healing you get.. so 0 per tic.

I am not a WF. What do you mean must have 100% positive healing? Shouldnt this work like the jerky or jungle cloak?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I am not a WF. What do you mean must have 100% positive healing? Shouldnt this work like the jerky or jungle cloak?

I'm told you sometimes need to re-equip the item for it to take effect too.

Garth

[Missing_Minds]

I am not a WF. What do you mean must have 100% positive healing? Shouldnt this work like the jerky or jungle cloak?

As you are not a WF I'm wondering why it is not working. are you cursed? Are you wearing demonic items? Are you wearing/holding anything that would give you negative levels?

Beyond that the only thing I can think is post your log. You'll probably have to use a quest timer to prove what you've stated (time wise) as I don't know if there is a clock function other wise in the game.

[Torilin]

I'm told you sometimes need to re-equip the item for it to take effect too.

Garth

Thanks Garth that did it.

[Raidon]

Any chance of posting a screenshot of the combined shard? Did it read something like this:



Nope the screenshot of the combined imbued shard .... we'll it didn't happen. :(


Ethereal Earth Escalation: This shard has been imbued with the energy of Ethereal Earth Escalation
Balance of Land and Sky: This item has been imbued with the power of Balance of Land and Sky

Garth

But yes it was exactly that.

[Tallyn]

I am not a WF. What do you mean must have 100% positive healing? Shouldnt this work like the jerky or jungle cloak?

Unfortunately no. The regeneration mechanic for this item works like clerical healing, it is based off positive energy. Thus, if you are warforged and you do not have 100% healing from clerical magic via enhancements/items, the regeneration will not work for you.

Do you have anything that would decrease clerical healing towards you that you are wearing, or any other effects? Otherwise may be a bug, not sure.

[Missing_Minds]

Thanks Garth that did it.

ah, so it is a bug, but a simple work around. Thanks for confirmation.

[Torilin]

Unfortunately no. The regeneration mechanic for this item works like clerical healing, it is based off positive energy. Thus, if you are warforged and you do not have 100% healing from clerical magic via enhancements/items, the regeneration will not work for you.

Do you have anything that would decrease clerical healing towards you that you are wearing, or any other effects? Otherwise may be a bug, not sure.

Re-equiping the item did the trick, thanks for all the input.

[EspyLacopa]

But, "Balance" and "Tempered" are elemental combos. To achieve greater Balance, it follows that you need to add the other elements. Perhaps, Balance + Tempered = Balance II (some sort of Total Elemental Harmony). The question arises whether Tempered could be similarly upgraded to Balance II by adding Tempered + Balance.

And as Shade suggested, Tempered could be an easy path to Tempered II by adding a Tempered Shard (more Fire and Water), under the logic that tempered metals can be improved by continuing the process.

If Both Tempered I and Balance I are upgraded to their respective II's by a Fire/Water shard, then I ask again: Why did they include an Earth/Air combo shard?

[MysticTheurge]

If Both Tempered I and Balance I are upgraded to their respective II's by a Fire/Water shard, then I ask again: Why did they include an Earth/Air combo shard?

Possibility 1) It was easier and/or more consistent/complete to do that way. Just like we have soul gems that don't do anything yet.

Possibility 2) No one ever said that each aspect has one and only one way to be upgraded to a third tier bonus. It's possible a BoLaS shard can be combine with something other than a BoLaS item to make a third tier bonus effect.

[UtherSRG]

If Both Tempered I and Balance I are upgraded to their respective II's by a Fire/Water shard, then I ask again: Why did they include an Earth/Air combo shard?


Possibility 1) It was easier and/or more consistent/complete to do that way. Just like we have soul gems that don't do anything yet.

Possibility 2) No one ever said that each aspect has one and only one way to be upgraded to a third tier bonus. It's possible a BoLaS shard can be combine with something other than a BoLaS item to make a third tier bonus effect.

I'm coming to the opinion that it's BoLaS + Tempered = Something New, and that Tempered + BoLas = Some Other Thing New.

[Ilandrya]

Note that in the descriptions at the second upgrade:

Existential Stalemate lists positive then negative. The dual imbued shard ended up positive as the "dominate" focus of the shard.

Mineral lists earth then positive. The dual imbued shard ended up earth as the "dominate" focus of the shard.

Balance of Land and Sky lists earth then air. The dual imbued shard ended up with earth as the "dominate" focus of the shard.

I believe that the dominate focus when combining two imbued shards comes from which focus is listed first in the description of the aspect/balance after an item gets it's second upgrade.

Now note the following, where the one letter abbreviations stand for focuses only:

Concordant Opposition came about by: n,p,p (using the dominate "positive" focus on the dual shard)
Mineral "II" came about by: p,e,e (using the dominate "earth" focus on the dual shard)
Balance of Land and Sky II was tried with: e,a,e (using the dominate "earth" focus on the dual shard) which failed

You will note that in the first two cases, the dominate focus of the dual shard when combined with the affinity or first focus, creates an aspect that mirrors the first aspect. In the first example, you end up with Existential Stalemate "I" and "II", and in the second, Mineral "I" and "II".

You will note that in the latter case, the dominate focus of the dual shard when combined with the affinity or first focus creates an aspect that does NOT mirror the first aspect. In this case, it's Balance of Land and Sky and Earth Aspect, not another Balance of Land and Sky.

[Gol]

I think we're down to essentially 2 options at this point:
1) Gem and/or Essense matter and/or dominant foci exist.
2) BoLaS (and possibly Tempered) are upgraded differently.

[Mad_Bombardier]

If Both Tempered I and Balance I are upgraded to their respective II's by a Fire/Water shard, then I ask again: Why did they include an Earth/Air combo shard?To provide another path by which to achieve Balance II (ie., Tempered + Balance also = Balance II)??? That's all I can think of at the moment.

[Missing_Minds]

Note that in the descriptions at the second upgrade:

Existential Stalemate lists positive then negative. The dual imbued shard ended up positive as the "dominate" focus of the shard.

Mineral lists earth then positive. The dual imbued shard ended up earth as the "dominate" focus of the shard.

Balance of Land and Sky lists earth then air. The dual imbued shard ended up with earth as the "dominate" focus of the shard.

I believe that the dominate focus when combining two imbued shards comes from which focus is listed first in the description of the aspect/balance after an item gets it's second upgrade.

Now note the following, where the one letter abbreviations stand for focuses only:

Concordant Opposition came about by: n,p,p (using the dominate "positive" focus on the dual shard)
Mineral "II" came about by: p,e,e (using the dominate "earth" focus on the dual shard)
Balance of Land and Sky II was tried with: e,a,e (using the dominate "earth" focus on the dual shard) which failed

You will note that in the first two cases, the dominate focus of the dual shard when combined with the affinity or first focus, creates an aspect that mirrors the first aspect. In the first example, you end up with Existential Stalemate "I" and "II", and in the second, Mineral "I" and "II".

You will note that in the latter case, the dominate focus of the dual shard when combined with the affinity or first focus creates an aspect that does NOT mirror the first aspect. In this case, it's Balance of Land and Sky and Earth Aspect, not another Balance of Land and Sky.


Ok, the first part made sence, the second part lost me. if.. I understand you correctly, are you thinking had he done it as an A E E (just due to how the last shard got powered) it may have ended up with balance II? To me this indicates there is either an order or a method to create the shards such to where the Balance II shard would have had air domainace instead.

Also, does anyone know if the alters in the shroud will actually accept soul gems or not? I doubt they'll take th 10 hd, but will they take 30 hd ones?

[Missing_Minds]

To provide another path by which to achieve Balance II (ie., Tempered + Balance also = Balance II)??? That's all I can think of at the moment.

At which point you have Shade complaining again.

[Ilandrya]

Ok, the first part made sence, the second part lost me. if.. I understand you correctly, are you thinking had he done it as an A E E (just due to how the last shard got powered) it may have ended up with balance II? To me this indicates there is either an order or a method to create the shards such to where the Balance II shard would have had air domainace instead.

Also, does anyone know if the alters in the shroud will actually accept soul gems or not? I doubt they'll take th 10 hd, but will they take 30 hd ones?


Simply put:

The dominate focus of the dual shard is combined with the affinity/first focus to create the second "aspect".

You can determine what the dominate focus of the dual shard will be by referring to what element/energy appears first in the description of "aspect of/balance of land and sky/tempered/existential stalemate.

So, you have to create the aspect/balance three times

once on your item with the first and second focus
once on your shard with the third and fourth focus
again on your item using the dominate focus on the dual shard, and the affinity/first focus

[Falcion]

Reading through the last 3 attempts 2 which succeeded and 1 of which did not I wanted to throw out another theory besides the Gem / Essence theory.

On the two items that worked they had in the item description:
Mineral Kopesh: Kopesh had: POSITIVE Energy Affinity & Mineral and was combined with a Shard of Supreme Power EARTH & Mineral
Concordant Goggles: Goggles had: NEGATIVE Energy Affinity & Existential Stalemate and was combined with Shard of Supreme Power (POSITIVE & Existential Stalemate)

What if it was the Positive and Mineral on the weapon mixing with the Earth and Mineral on the shard is what resulted in the Mineral II
Same thing with the Neg and Existential Stalemate on the goggles mixing with the Pos and Existential Stalemate on the shard that resulted in Concordant Opposition.


This could explain the recent Land and Sky failure since the goggles had Earth Affinity and Balance of L&S and the Shard of Supreme Power had (Earth & Balance of L&S) --> This combination had two Earth's with balance of L&S

Aka..
What worked:
Item (+ Mineral) plus Shard (Earth Mineral) = Mineral II
Item (- Existential Stalemate) plus Shard (+ Existential Stalemate) = Concordant Opposition
What didn’t work
Item (Earth, Existential Stalemate) plus Shard (Earth, Existential Stalemate) = nothing (tried to put two earths together)

If this is true then we do have a problem figuring out how to control the final Supreme Power Shard combination, or we have to find the dominant combinations and prepare the items properly through the first two altars.

[MysticTheurge]

Reading through the last 3 attempts 2 which succeeded and 1 of which did not I wanted to throw out another theory besides the Gem / Essence theory.

Interesting theory.

[Kargon]

[EDIT: I'm wrong about Balance of Earth and Sky, but leaving this up so Kargon can laugh at me. Sorry Eladrin for falsely accusing you of contradicting yourself!]


*point and laugh*

But in all seriousnamess... that not very fun for whoevamer discover the silly land and sky not upgramade like the othermers.

Kargon note eladrin post that an item with 'balance of land and sky' have an upgrade path, but can eladrin confirm that a combinimation of two supreme shards with 'balance of land and sky' on it can be used in SOME item's upgramade path? like othermers say, if the shard combined (and even generamated the 'land and sky' descriptimion in the shard), it had bettermer be usamable SOMEHOW, even if we not know how yet. Confirmatimion would be apprecimiated.

[Falcion]

Ok so Ilandrya I think we are on the same page... I'm just slower to post :)

[oronisi]

Why are people trying to overcomplicate the Balance of Land and Sky II upgrade? Has anyone tried adding JUST water to that? Or how about JUST fire?

EARTH, WIND & FIRE sound familiar? Yea? Maybe like 'Running With the Devils' and other musical references in this mod.

Land, Air, and Sea (water) also sounds like a likely combination.

I would personally exhaust the simpler options before wasting 24 large ingredients on a tempered II shard.

[Borror0]

Reading through the last 3 attempts 2 which succeeded and 1 of which did not I wanted to throw out another theory besides the Gem / Essence theory.

I had noticed the same thing, but nyour explanation makes more sense than mine, hehe. (I had only seen that thetier two was "Negative" and the last upgrade done to the Existential Stalemate goggles was a "Negative" focused shard. So saying that the focus from the Supreme shard would interact with the Affinity of the item makes a lot of sense to me.)

[Grimshadow]

I honestly am terrified to even try anything now with the tier 3 failures I thought we proved would work. I have already done 4 items that are junked: One was the +4 wisdom ES goggles I actually made correct but now I have to wait till Mod 7 for it to be fixed due to another Turbine mistake; another was accidentally equiped while trying to mail it, why not have a safety measure like end rewards ask if you want it to bind to you? Another was misinformation on the web for a +6 int khopesh, don't even wanna talk about the last one. I have already played enough games where we were paying to Beta test content that was released to soon.

Do you honestly think that it grows a game by:
Holding back info.
Giving vague replies of little value.
Letting people fail over and again with little to show for there efforts.
Having people too afraid to even try creating something new.

And honestly, kudos to the few people that continue to spend all their time and plat on trying to get the right upgrades for the normal players. The forge was fun for a couple weeks, but now everyone I talk to isn't going to spend 1 large ingredient on something that won't work. I spent the last week running 2 characters to ransack for 2 large horns and 4 large ingredients?!?! And its not just me, there are so many alts running the shroud now I can't even tell what server I am on half the time. I think exploring new things IS fun, but you should never penalize people for doing so.

Don't rant w/o solutions, that's what I always told my employees, so here goes...

1) Make a way to un-assemble your botched or miscoded item to get your ingredients back. (Even if not all of them, 1/2 returned is still better than nothing.)
2) Give them a vision of their creation before items are actually consumed. (Hrmm, thats not what i wanted to make..AHH I forgot to...instead of..Wait that's not what I wanted...ugh 2 weeks of farming a stupid raid zone for a +5will save or +&#37; Healing & Infinite Death)
3)RECIPE BOOK! So many ways to make it work and be fun..Put Recipes or pieces of them, like Tome page sets, in random chests of any high level area. Why not in Shroud only? Because we want all people to get in on the interaction, not just raiders. Take that a step further, why not have ingredients also drop randomly in any chest or maybe from mobs in other zones. People who enjoy all the content shouldn't have to be Shroud bound to get something nice, after all, you need to go inside to use the altars anyways.
4)How about rewarding people who make the game better for all of us, including the employees. (Please no more candy canes.) Imagine if the few select who didn't give up, weren't here. The people who have 3-10 favor capped characters, the people that started and spend hours a day updating forums like this one. The GM's who actually care, and there are some good ones. The Role-Players who really enjoy helping people.

Leftfield

Great job on marketplace event, looks amazing. Is there a way to have it at different times so people who are in certain time zones or work at that hour every night aren't excluded? I hear some folks have gotten to loot some nice things for just being in the right place. grats!

And finally, Gary Gygax rest in peace, I hope the games does something to honor his memory.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Why are people trying to overcomplicate the Balance of Land and Sky II upgrade? Has anyone tried adding JUST water to that? Or how about JUST fire?

EARTH, WIND & FIRE sound familiar?

Land, Air, and Sea (water) also sounds like a likely combination.Yes, Earth, Wind, & Fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jLGa4X5H2c) and Navy SEALs (http://www.navyseals.com/) for everyone!

[Inkblack]

I've written and deleted a rant four times now. I don't think anyone will be terribly disappointed by my use of the backspace key.

I do have one question: Is crafting in other MMO's this complicated? This is my first and only MMO, I honestly don't know.

Ink

[Tallyn]

I've written and deleted a rant four times now. I don't think anyone will be terribly disappointed by my use of the backspace key.

I do have one question: Is crafting in other MMO's this complicated? This is my first and only MMO, I honestly don't know.

Ink

Yes and no.

This is not true crafting per se. We are creating our own Raid items, that have the potential to be better than other raid items out there. I've seen other MMOs be just as frustrating when dealing with rare/powerful items like this.

Standard crafting, which I am guessing will come along later, should probably be a lot less complicated. Other MMOs, when you craft standard items, you generally know what you need, and where/how to get it. However, for those of us doing end game content, standard crafting is not what we're looking for to polish up our main character :)

[Borror0]

Is crafting in other MMO's this complicated?

Don't forget that this only the prototype and that the more complete as yet to be introduced.:rolleyes:

I know that a few of my friends told me that they'll wait for me to be online to ever craft.:p

[MysticTheurge]

I have to say, while this period of discovery is fun, collectively, to participate in, it must absolutely suck to be the guy who expends 24 large ingredients to find out that BaLoS/BaLoS doesn't work.

And that, I think, probably means there something wrong with this system/information release methodology. :(

[Inkblack]

...

If this is true then we do have a problem figuring out how to control the final Supreme Power Shard combination, or we have to find the dominant combinations and prepare the items properly through the first two altars.

Nice post, you've given me some hope. I think you can eliminate the second possibility (preparing properly through the first 2 altars) based on Eladrin's last post:


An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

Ink

[oronisi]

I've written and deleted a rant four times now. I don't think anyone will be terribly disappointed by my use of the backspace key.

I do have one question: Is crafting in other MMO's this complicated? This is my first and only MMO, I honestly don't know.

Ink

Crafting in SWG was MORE complicated, but easier to comprehend the basics. If you set out to make a potato gun (and had the schematic / recipe) you would be clearly walked through step by step until you had a potato gun. It would just be a crappy potato gun.

It's hard to compare to this system since this isn't really crafting. DDO implemented raid loot via recipes. The most similar thing I can compare this to is the horoderick cube from Diablo 2. With that thing you had the same, drop in random rare items and hope to get something cool out of it.

[Drith]

I've written and deleted a rant four times now. I don't think anyone will be terribly disappointed by my use of the backspace key.

I do have one question: Is crafting in other MMO's this complicated? This is my first and only MMO, I honestly don't know.

Ink

I too will say Yes and No.

Sometimes in MMO's you have recipies given to you in the game. Other times you have our current situation in that you have a bunch of ingredients and are trying to figure out the recipies by trial and error.

Usually when you have the recipies there is a great deal of work involved in building your skill up in say smithing or tailoring or what have you and this takes weeks and sometimes months to do and consumes a TONNE of money and resources in the process. As well with the unknown UBER recipies, there have been other MMO's who have done this where the actual recipe took thousands of people 4 plus months to figure out and even then it was only figured out because of strong pressure from the MMO community to get the developers to drop hints for them.

So yeah.... this system so far is pretty simple. The other thing that's nice with THIS system is there's no penalty for failing other then loosing your power shard. In other MMO's if you fail you lose ALL your ingredients. Which SUCKS hardcore@!

[Boulderun]

I have to say, while this period of discovery is fun, collectively, to participate in, it must absolutely suck to be the guy who expends 24 large ingredients to find out that BaLoS/BaLoS doesn't work.

And that, I think, probably means there something wrong with this system/information release methodology. :(

No kidding. If I had 10 more large ingredients (instead of the 10 large horns), I'd have been that guy.

[Vienemen]

Would be nice if that essence of cleansing after your 20th run would either allow you to remove the taint on an item or allow you to disassemble an upgraded green steel item into its base components and ingredients.

[binnsr]

Would be nice if that essence of cleansing after your 20th run would either allow you to remove the taint on an item or allow you to disassemble an upgraded green steel item into its base components and ingredients.

Is it confirmed that you WILL get one after 20 runs?

[Aesop]

That's my guess as well. Balance of Land and Sky is upgraded with Fire and Water.

Balance of Elemental Harmony

sounds... balanced :D

Aesop

[Borror0]

Balance of Elemental Harmony

Why not simply "Elemental Harmony"?

[Yaga_Nub]

Is it confirmed that you WILL get one after 20 runs?

No, it hasn't been confirmed.

[Aesop]

Why not simply "Elemental Harmony"?

yeah I thought of that after I hit post...


Aesop

[Missing_Minds]

Would be nice if that essence of cleansing after your 20th run would either allow you to remove the taint on an item or allow you to disassemble an upgraded green steel item into its base components and ingredients.

heck, is there even raid loot at the end of this raid given the fact we are making our own item?

[Vienemen]

I have not read that yet from turbine no. Only hearsay on my part.

[maddmatt70]

Would be nice if that essence of cleansing after your 20th run would either allow you to remove the taint on an item or allow you to disassemble an upgraded green steel item into its base components and ingredients.

To be honest I hope that these are just a couple of the options. Other options that would be nice would be crafting a weapon (axes, rapiers, etc.) of your choice, +3 tomes, a "special ingredient" which can be used in combination with the other ingredients to make the most powerful items/weapons..

[Aesop]

To be honest I hope that these are just a couple of the options. Other options that would be nice would be crafting a weapon (axes, rapiers, etc.) of your choice, +3 tomes, a "special ingredient" which can be used in combination with the other ingredients to make the most powerful items/weapons..

I could see as a 20th completion reward a choice of Greensteel Blanks that are not craftable.

Aesop

[Riggs]

I have to say, while this period of discovery is fun, collectively, to participate in, it must absolutely suck to be the guy who expends 24 large ingredients to find out that BaLoS/BaLoS doesn't work.

And that, I think, probably means there something wrong with this system/information release methodology. :(

Indeed.

Not only was there a simple path to tier 3, but a second more complicated path, now a third yet more complicated one for 'special' upgrades. "Sorry you spent weeks, and borrow ingredients from other people to test out this system - no tier 3 for you. See you tomorrow when you start trying to collect another 24 large ingredients"

[Borror0]

I could see as a 20th completion reward a choice of Greensteel Blanks that are not craftable.

That would nice but also sad. I mean, are battle axes/dwarven axes/rapiers that overpowered?

A dwarven axe or Greataxe doesn't even compare to the power of a second Green Steel accessory...

[Borror0]

Not only was there a simple path to tier 3, but a second more complicated path, now a third yet more complicated one for 'special' upgrades. "Sorry you spent weeks, and borrow ingredients from other people to test out this system - no tier 3 for you. See you tomorrow when you start trying to collect another 24 large ingredients"

It'd be nice to get the chance to be able to retrieve a certain percentage of the ingrediants used to made a Green Steel item by dismanteling it. Not all of them as it'd allow endless "testing", but lowering the costs of discovery would certainly be nice.

[Ilandrya]

Eh, it can be looked at in two ways, and each have equal merit IMHO.

1) Those that worked so hard and put all the time and effort in testing various combinations should be rewarded for their efforts, not penalized for them with an item they feel is "gimped"... an item that they would not have created had they known the outcome for certain in advance. In other words, those who put in the work should receive at least an equal, if not greater, reward for their efforts than those who are just using existing recipes others have worked hard to come up with.

2) Those that choose to experiment are those who obviously take the most risk. So one could say that the knowledge that their item may not turn out as uber as those to come later when the process was more understood was a known risk they were taking, a risk that they should not have taken if they weren't willing to risk a loss.

As a side note, I'm glad they changed the clw clicky to Panacea... it was really sub par for the level. I'm also similarly really under enthused about the improved/greater/superior VI to one spell line from the green steel weapons. Why put in all the hard work for that when you can simply pick up a superior potency VI item in the auction house that does the same thing but for all spells not just one line? Heck, there is even greater potency VII now that is relatively easy to come by without all the effort of crafting. A lot of work for something with less effect than is currently readily available = pointless. To put these on par with the uber damage typing that non casters are getting and make them worthwhile to have on green steel weapons, they'd have to be improved/greater/superior VIII to one line of spells, or maybe improved/greater/superior potency VII with some kind of spell penetration bonus or something tied into the same line.

I understand this may have been an effort on the part of the developers to equalize the damage that casters do vs. non casters in higher end content to be more in keeping with other mmo's. (Although if I remember correctly... haven't played pen and paper since 1986... this is just how it is in D&D... at high levels, casters do more damage than tank types but tanks are just as necessary... they are the "meat shields", if you will, that allow the casters to live long enough to do the damage they do.) However, if that was their aim, they would have been better off creating something else of use than producing a line of upgrades inferior to what already exists in game.

[maddmatt70]

As a side note, I'm glad they changed the clw clicky to Panacea... it was really sub par for the level. I'm also similarly really under enthused about the improved/greater/superior VI to one spell line from the green steel weapons. Why put in all the hard work for that when you can simply pick up a superior potency VI item in the auction house that does the same thing but for all spells not just one line? Heck, there is even greater potency VII now that is relatively easy to come by without all the effort of crafting. A lot of work for something with less effect than is currently readily available = pointless. To put these on par with the uber damage typing that non casters are getting and make them worthwhile to have on green steel weapons, they'd have to be improved/greater/superior potency VIII or maybe VII with some kind of spell penetration bonus or something tied into the same line.

From what I can tell (cambo doesn't have one listed as upgrded to the third tier) nobody has every upgraded one of those lines (Ethereal + Dominion + X) to the third tier. My guess is that the third tier will have something better then superior devotion VI, superior combustion VI, etc. Everybody has been complaining about how there should be a superior devotion VII and greater devotion VIII items out there in the loot tables. The real question is why hasn't Turbine put them out in the loot tables. One possible answer is they want it only to happen when you upgrade a steel green weapon to the third tier right now...

[Borror0]

One possible answer is they want it only to happen when you upgrade a steel green weapon to the third tier right now...

I've been thinking the same, but who would be willing to waste 12 large ingrediants to try that?:confused:

[maddmatt70]

I've been thinking the same, but who would be willing to waste 12 large ingrediants to try that?:confused:

The other thing that a cleric or arcane can do is go for a 24 large ingredients combo weapon.. For a cleric have one half of it give you wisdom and the other half give you devotion and see how that works. It would still be a nice weapon whatever you get..

[Naso24]

I appreciate the effort. It will be some time before I can craft a tier 3 special upgrade. For every tier 3 upgrade that does not result in a special, I would be happy to send an ingredient to the crafter if they are on the same server, to help with some of the pain.

Any others want to help?

Please post your server with your failed picture special. I'll send a small, med, or large depending on what I seem to have more of.

[Ilandrya]

The other thing that a cleric or arcane can do is go for a 24 large ingredients combo weapon.. For a cleric have one half of it give you wisdom and the other half give you devotion and see how that works. It would still be a nice weapon whatever you get..

Eh, as a Cleric myself who is usually wand/scroll (which can't be used in the off hand) and shield, I really don't want something that affects my spell points/offensive casting on something I'm usually not able to use much. It would probably work ok for a Battle Cleric that does most of his healing with sp while fighting, but for a pure healer build or a offensive/defensive casting Cleric, who does a lot of wand/scroll healing it's a pain to have your Wisdom/Devotion/Potency on a weapon. Also, if you weild a weapon but don't fight, people may mistake you for a slacker... thats why a lot of pure healer or offensive/defensive casting spec'd Clerics use scepters instead for things like potency/devotion/lore etc when they either can't find an appropriate accessory or don't have an accessory slot available... it makes them less likely to be mistaken for a Battle Cleric who is just slacking on the job.

The Existential Stalemate bonus to Wisdom on an accessory really takes care of that issue though... was very, very happy about that.... entirely changed what I was planning on. My concern was more for arcane casters than divine ones in regard to my earlier post.

[Borror0]

It would still be a nice weapon whatever you get..

Not really. If you want the wisdom, then the Devotion will suck.

If the Devotion is Superior Devotion VI, then it sucks further more... unless you're a Battle cleric...

[Cambo]

I will be adding to the 4th post in this thread a list of important pages in crafting research for easy reference.

Please provide any suggstions of pages/posts (I think linking directly to the post is a pain as you cant then browse responses).

I will go through the thread myself over time but any suggested links will be implemented Quickly.

I will also make the first post have more of an index and other important links like the crafting spreadsheets.
The first post will also contain the page at which I have last read to update information.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Why not simply "Elemental Harmony"?You mean exactly what I named 43 posts ago? ;)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602444#post1602444

[nbhs275]

Not really. If you want the wisdom, then the Devotion will suck.

If the Devotion is Superior Devotion VI, then it sucks further more... unless you're a Battle cleric...


Sup devoition six on a +5 holy acid burst transmuting keen slicing greatsword would be pretty bang up for any cleric. Swing swing heal!

[Preylor]

We've seen what Aspect of Mineral II does on weapons. Has anyone seen what effect it has on clothing/accessories?

Also, what's the damage and procs of the elemental and good guards on clothing from the Altar of Devastation?

[Borror0]

You mean exactly what I named 43 posts ago? ;)
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1602444#post1602444

Yeah, but it only got a good idea after I said it. ;)


Sup devoition six on a +5 holy acid burst transmuting keen slicing greatsword would be pretty bang up for any cleric. Swing swing heal!

Lots of cleric don't "Swing n' heal" you know. ;) But I agree that it's be nice for the Battle clerics.

[Ilandrya]

We've seen what Aspect of Mineral II does on weapons. Has anyone seen what effect it has on clothing/accessories?

None that I've seen reported, although I think it's a safe bet to assume that weapon and item effects differ on 4 focus enchantments as they do with 3 focus enchantments given what Aspect of Mineral II imparted to a weapon.

Someone I believe theorized that it might be a permanent form of DR... that would be in keeping with the stoneskin clicky imparted with Aspect of Mineral I. It could end up possibly being perhaps some kind of lesser stoneskin but with a permanent effect, perhaps an ac bonus as well... I can see something along those lines happening.

[ChildrenofBodom]

If I go Material + Escalation + Positive and then Material + Escalation + negative (or vise versa) on my bracers I would get +25 HP and +6 wisdom from existential stalement right? Just want to double check that that is the case. 'Cause that would clear up a slot for my ranger and get him some extra hp. Would be awesome. Thx for the help in advance. :)

[Borror0]

Someone I believe theorized that it might be a permanent form of DR... that would be in keeping with the stoneskin clicky imparted with Aspect of Mineral I. It could end up possibly being perhaps some kind of lesser stoneskin but with a permanent effect, perhaps an ac bonus as well... I can see something along those lines happening.

I'd doubt of a perma DR, to be honest.

It's not synergetic with a Stoneskin clicky, bad design to me.

[Tanka]

Agreed. Plus, there aren't many items that grant any DR right now. Adamantine items and a few pieces of Full Plate, but otherwise it's only Bloodrage Symbiot, Stoneskin, Angel Skin, Barb granted abilities, Barb Action Boost and... That's it.

[Ilandrya]

I'd doubt of a perma DR, to be honest.

It's not synergetic with a Stoneskin clicky, bad design to me.


It would depend upon how much the perma dr was for... there are already some in game anyway, and if the stoneskin clicky stacks depending upon how they list the bonus, an additonal + for a short while... the clicky iteself isn't perm.

These 24 large ingredient upgrades would have to be a bit on the uber side to be worth it, and I don't really know what else the devs would do on this.. maybe make the item a little more durable/hard like they did with the weapons, but other than that I can't really think of anything besides dr or ac for mineral II on an accessory. Hypothetical of course... will just have to wait and see.



Agreed. Plus, there aren't many items that grant any DR right now. Adamantine items and a few pieces of Full Plate, but otherwise it's only Bloodrage Symbiot, Stoneskin, Angel Skin, Barb granted abilities, Barb Action Boost and... That's it.

There's the named boots that give striding and 3 dr also.... can't remember what they are called offhand.

[Borror0]

If I go Material + Escalation + Positive and then Material + Escalation + negative (or vise versa) on my bracers I would get +25 HP and +6 wisdom from existential stalement right? Just want to double check that that is the case. 'Cause that would clear up a slot for my ranger and get him some extra hp. Would be awesome. Thx for the help in advance. :)

Go Positive then Negative to have the greatest chances to obtain Concordant Opposition. Besides, Positive gives +Con and Negative gives +Str so I guess you'd rather a bonus to strength skills.;)

[Borror0]

These 24 large ingredient upgrades would have to be a bit on the uber side to be worth it, and I don't really know what else the devs would do on this.. maybe make the item a little more durable/hard like they did with the weapons, but other than that I can't really think of anything besides dr or ac for mineral II on an accessory. Hypothetical of course... will just have to wait and see.

How about Exceptional Damage Reduction? Seems a theme with these Green Steel recipes...:rolleyes:


There's the named boots that give striding and 3 dr also.... can't remember what they are called offhand.

Golden Greaves (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/GoldenGreaves.jpg)

[ChildrenofBodom]

Go Positive then Negative to have the greatest chances to obtain Concordant Opposition. Besides, Positive gives +Con and Negative gives +Str so I guess you'd rather a bonus to strength skills.;)

Actually I would prefer concentration over jump and swim. :) But I will go pos then neg to get concodant opposition. Thx Borror0 :)

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Actually I would prefer concentration over jump and swim. :) But I will go pos then neg to get concodant opposition. Thx Borror0 :)

...or take a potential 'hit for the team', go negative then positive then try and still get concordant opposition and (dis)prove some theories!! :)

Garth

[Cambo]

Agreed. Plus, there aren't many items that grant any DR right now. Adamantine items and a few pieces of Full Plate, but otherwise it's only Bloodrage Symbiot, Stoneskin, Angel Skin, Barb granted abilities, Barb Action Boost and... That's it.

Bard Ironskin chant, Invulnerability suffix , axeblock suffix etc

[Lavabeing]

Bard Ironskin chant, Invulnerability suffix , axeblock suffix etc

Titanic Docent, Bramble Casters, ... etc.

[Aesop]

Titanic Docent, Bramble Casters, ... etc.

Adamantine Body + Feats and Enhancements

Berserker Bracers

Golden Greaves

[Tanka]

Fine, fine! Yeesh!

You people and your facts. Pshaw.

[CaptGrim]

Well the Perma DR of 5 works well in the game, but only Stoneskin, Barb DR, defiance/titan docent and brambles get above DR5, so I don't think perm 10DR would be too out of line for lvl 17 end game raid loot, that takes ALOT of time to farm.

[BlueBadger]

golden greaves
the lvl 1 named bracers
lots of items give a tiny bit of DR (usually less then 5)

[Tanka]

I think it would be a bit much. You're basically allowing it to out-Barb a Barb with their inherent DR. It shouldn't be a regular thing to get DR that blocks everything (including Transmuting). And since everyone can eventually farm for it, why wouldn't everyone get it, barring other Green Steel Equipment they want and not having enough cleansing items to go around?

[TKnor]

For what it's worth, I've taken the Excel spreadsheet version of the crafting calculator thingy and turned it into a web page. I've also transformed the data into XML for ease of use elsewhere (should someone want to use it elsewhere). It doesn't have the Invasion/Subjugation synergy or Invasion/Subjugation/Devastation synergy bonuses implemented yet, nor are the Devastation supershard recipies in yet (even if there's only one), though.

My guild's been usin' it quite a bit, I think. Binnsr posted a link to it the other day in his thread in the Crafting Discussion forum.

I'll post it here for anyone that wants to give it a whirl. Constructive criticism appreciated. I know it's kinda long vertically, but I'm not sure what to do about that just yet.

YOu can find it here: DDO Crafting Helper Page (http://www.randojones.com/miscellany/ddocrafting.aspx)

[vyvy3369]

/Drumroll on lightning 2...Congrats (soon) Kargon!

Edit: and Atanas on Ice 2!

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

:drumrolls: on ice II - congrats atanas, and lightning II - congrats Kargon! :)

Garth

[Tanka]

/em taps his foot impatiently.

[vyvy3369]

/em taps his foot impatiently.
(Party): [Party] Kargona: combining two shards, putting air first
(Party): [Party] Kargona: ahah! it says lightning
(Party): [Party] Kargona: here goes the forge
(Party): [Party] Kargona: ok its holy,
(Party): [Party] Kargona: shocking burst,
(Party): [Party] Kargona: shocking blast,
(Party): [Party] Kargona: and lightning strike. This weapon stores the power of a volatile thunderstorm deep within. occasionally this dynamic power comes to the surface, devastating enemies with a massive lightning strike.

(Party): [Party] Atanas: Freezing Ice on Ice II