The Thing (A build by request)

[sigtrent]

This build is from Sigtrent's build request thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232)

Build Name: The Thing
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Eric Ebo
Last Updated: 04/29/2010

Key Words [Cleric, Rogue, Traps, TWF, Intimidate]

Objectives
This was a build for a duo team. One team member was a sorceress and the other team member was everything else. They wanted to have a full dungeon experience with the two characters so we needed traps, healing, and combat duties.

Design
The easy thing to do would be two WF casters, one sorcerer and a rogue wizard, both with some melee abilities. But for whatever reason I went with a human sorcerer and a this... a strange kind of fighting cleric rogue. Its the human sorcerer that kind of dictated the build parameters. It had to heal fleshes, it had to do traps, it had to fight, and in my mind it had to have some tank like qualities. I also wanted it to augment the sorcerer however possible. Cleric handles the healing and the boosting of the caster (via DV) and it even can help the rogue out. The defense and offense part called for fighter or paladin. With feats tight fighter looked like the better option. I went through all kinds of permutations to get the thing to gell and finally something oozed out of the character builder.

The cleric side is pure healing/buffing, so wisdom is only high enough to qualify for casting. Likewise the rogue end is purely for disarm, search, and evasion. Fighter picks up the slack in combat providing proficiencies, TWF offense, primarily using effect weapons (vorpols, paralyzers, banishers etc...) but also enough straight damage to have some impact and later in the build it adds heavy shield blocking abilities and some better AC options. It also supports the intimidate skill nicely.

Dex is the primary combat stat. This was done to enable TWF, to provide a driver for AC, enable good evasion, boost lock picking, and of course in the end to drive to-hit bonuses. It just seemed it was the stat giving me the most mileage so why not drive hard on it.

Quicken is used to avoid concentration checks so its pretty much always on when in combat, especially when playing mini tank.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Neutral Good Human Male
(7 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 11 Cleric)
Hit Points: 230
Spell Points: 565
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 12 16
Dexterity 15 24
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 14 16
Charisma 12 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 12
Bluff 1 3
Concentration 3 6
Diplomacy 1 3
Disable Device 6 27
Haggle 5 7
Heal 2 3
Hide 2 7
Intimidate 5 31
Jump 5 8
Listen 2 3
Move Silently 2 7
Open Lock 6 19
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 6 27
Spot 6 7
Swim 1 3
Tumble 6 11
Use Magic Device 5 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality III
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I




Play
Your job is to defend and aid your caster friend. Fight down the monsters that would wast her spell points. Intimidate the buggers off her and into the fire walls. Heal her and giver her mana. Disable the nasty traps that endanger her. Open chests and locked doors for her. Protect her from status effects and instant death. Basically do all the dirty work so she can blast things into tiny pieces.

While you have some tank skills you are not a true tank, more tank-light. One think intimidate is good for is training monsters around. You don't have to just stand there and take the poundings, especially if you are duoing with a caster. In a larger group there is likely a stronger tank. Another issue to watch for is mana, you really have a pretty shallow pool. Good enough if you conserve it well but its not really raid quality or quantity healing. You do make a strong back up healer and can support a primary healer well with DVs. Its also a great character for odd jobs in raids, someone who can go off alone and is likely to come back after doing whatever it was that needed doing while the main fight was going on.

Variations
Its such an odd build, there is a lot you could change but each change demands another change and it becomes hard to make it all work out. I'd say anyone interested in a challenge should try to make a tank rogue healer. Its a very challenging combo to assemble.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I was expecting an orange Warforged Barbarian with a few points in Charisma.

[sigtrent]

I was expecting an orange Warforged Barbarian with a few points in Charisma.

and mithral body to get that stone skin look... that would be cool! Perhaps when monks come out...

I called it Thing for lack of a better description...

A two weapon fighting finesse cleric rogue semi-tank... just doesn't quite do it justice.

[EinarMal]

My only comments are missing improved critical is kind of a bummer, it really limits your DPS, or like you listed you are stuck using the best keen weapon you can find. Given that there is a sorc in the group do you really need maximize?

I am also not fond of dex builds personally, where you are using strength as a dump stat and not taking power attack. You have high enough to hit to use power attack almost all the time and it would open up a lot of opportunities. I might drop Wis to 12 and Cha to 12 and put those 3 points into strength. With a +1 tome that would give you 14 and you can pick up power attack, that is a solid +7 to damage per swing, you can't always use effects weapons especially at end battles etc...

The other thing is extend, if you are going to fight with divine power/favor up a lot of the time that is a pretty big feat.

Feats:
1-Two Weapon Fighting
1-(HB) Weapon Finesse
3-Extend
6-Power Attack
9-Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12-IC Piercing
15-Greater Two Weapon Fighting

[MysticRhythms]

Would a Rogue3/Bard11(Spellsinger) fit the bill a little more? I think you'd have an easier time maximizing the Rogue skills and should be able to UMD any healing you would need beyond th Bard's spells. I think you'd be able to provide more offense this way, though you'd lose out on things like Blade Barrier.

[Impaqt]

I would take Improved Critical over Greater 2WF in a heartbeat.

Whats Divine Might?

I dont see where your getting some of those Numbers.. I really dislike the format you present on these builds.... If anotehr builder cant figure out your numbers, how is someone looking into a build supposed to figure out how to hit th enumbers your claiming?

[brshelton]

I would take Improved Critical over Greater 2WF in a heartbeat.

Whats Divine Might?

I dont see where your getting some of those Numbers.. I really dislike the format you present on these builds.... If anotehr builder cant figure out your numbers, how is someone looking into a build supposed to figure out how to hit th enumbers your claiming?

i see no issues besides divine might he might mean divine power

[MysticRhythms]

Actually, the format is a lot esier for me to read than the gobs and gobs of wasted space the character builder uses up

[sigtrent]

Would a Rogue3/Bard11(Spellsinger) fit the bill a little more? I think you'd have an easier time maximizing the Rogue skills and should be able to UMD any healing you would need beyond th Bard's spells. I think you'd be able to provide more offense this way, though you'd lose out on things like Blade Barrier.

One of the big things that led me to cleric were certain defensive buffs: Death Ward, Spell Resistance, and Freedom of Movement. My wife has a sorcerer and when she solo's these are the buffs she most wishes she could have, Death Ward especialy. Scrolls are one thing but sometimes they are just too slow when reacting to debuffs and the like. I though that, along with having blade barrier and the DV action etc really called for clerc. And of course there are the Heal spells and raise dead. Again the bard can scroll those, but scrolling and casting are worlds apart.

You could make a much more full featured rogue with bard though. I don't think bard would actualy give more offense in that case. The buffing song wouldn't quite out pace DF + DP on a spellsinger and the sorcerer character has little use for the buffs. I think if I wasn't going for the "we can duo everything" and was making a healing rogue, the bard route would be better overall as a full party member.

[sigtrent]

My only comments are missing improved critical is kind of a bummer, it really limits your DPS, or like you listed you are stuck using the best keen weapon you can find. Given that there is a sorc in the group do you really need maximize?

Thanks for the comments. Interesting how you zoomed in on the combat side of it. I actualy started trying to run strength, but the AC/Open Locks and overall combat abbility didn't look so good to me. That was with lowish dex. What you put together has more str over secondaries.. that isn't a lot of extra damage for the sacrifice of the other features...

The re-arange of feats looks decent though. Maximize is more a feature than a nessesity. It does help with healing. My own cleric has MAx and Empower and in some cases I find Max heals (especialy area heals) quite usefull for tough fights.

[sigtrent]

Thanks much for taking a look Impaqt!


I would take Improved Critical over Greater 2WF in a heartbeat.

Makes sense. I have a bard without IC and he uses keen weapons a lot. It works fine so long as you have the keen weapons, but I think IC for GTWF is a very reasonable choice.


Whats Divine Might?

Divine Power, I just call it Divine Might (a pnp spell one level higher and is similar) so I get them mixed up in my brain a lot.


I dont see where your getting some of those Numbers.. I really dislike the format you present on these builds.... If anotehr builder cant figure out your numbers, how is someone looking into a build supposed to figure out how to hit th enumbers your claiming?

Well, different preferences partly... i don't mean it as a critique but I don't much like the one you use as it emphisizes the final numbers over the build set up. I like to see the raw build set up first and then see the compiled values as I'm more intersted in the build choices than the gear and buffs used.

None the less I'm always trying to improve the format so I'd love any specific suggestions about what you would change.

As to numbers, keep in mind this is a level 16 build so saves HP and SP are a big inflated compared to a 14 and I have 8 more AP I'm allocating.

[MysticRhythms]

You could make a much more full featured rogue with bard though. I don't think bard would actualy give more offense in that case. The buffing song wouldn't quite out pace DF + DP on a spellsinger and the sorcerer character has little use for the buffs. I think if I wasn't going for the "we can duo everything" and was making a healing rogue, the bard route would be better overall as a full party member.
The DF + DP is giving you +6 to hit and +3 to damage. A spellsinger with Inspire Greatness, and Inspired Attack II/Inspried DamageIII could get +6 to hit and +5 to damage without using mana and the buffs would last longer though you'd be behind by 1 BaB because of the lack of Divine Power coverage. the spellsinger could also add 1 more with Focusing Chant and in a pinch, use a stack of Divine Might scrolls.

Actually, a better team wouild be a Paladin2/Cleric12 and the Spellsinger trapfinder above, but you only have room for 1 of them.

I'd probably have pushed the rogue skills onto the arcanist (making it a Wizard) and then gone with the Paladin/Cleric above.

the Wizard has more synergy with a Rogue because of Intelligence being important to both. You can use Knock in lieu of Open Locks for a lot of content, too.

It's an interesting exercise.

[Impaqt]

Divine Power would actually be a +4 Boost then. Raises BAB to Level.

54 Disable is barely adequet for Current level cap WHo knows what we'll see in Mod 6. and thats 54 with a Boost..... What are you going to do in a Dungeon like Maze of Madness?

Its just the skills that bother me... 19/54...... I like to see the actual breakdown.

[sigtrent]

The DF + DP is giving you +6 to hit and +3 to damage. A spellsinger with Inspire Greatness, and Inspired Attack II/Inspried DamageIII could get +6 to hit and +5 to damage without using mana and the buffs would last longer though you'd be behind by 1 BaB because of the lack of Divine Power coverage. the spellsinger could also add 1 more with Focusing Chant and in a pinch, use a stack of Divine Might scrolls..

Well argued, although I got DP wrong and its +4 for this build. But none the less you make a good combat argument for the bard.


Actually, a better team wouild be a Paladin2/Cleric12 and the Spellsinger trapfinder above, but you only have room for 1 of them.

I disagree with that. Nothing can stand up to the raw power of a pure sorcerer, especialy when it comes to solo play. They are absolutely devistating and have the mana to spam maximized firewalls and heightened PK/FOD like there is no tommorow. I know clerics can solo decently wtih Blade Barrier and Destruction but they are slower casters wtih less mana and only the two strong offensive spells to work with compared to a slew of strong spells with the sorc.


I'd probably have pushed the rogue skills onto the arcanist (making it a Wizard) and then gone with the Paladin/Cleric above..

Again you loose out on the powerhouse character. A rogue wizard is a pale shadow of a pure sorcerer in terms of simply dominating combat encounters.


the Wizard has more synergy with a Rogue because of Intelligence being important to both. You can use Knock in lieu of Open Locks for a lot of content, too.

I certainly can't argue wtih that. The requester mentioned going with too rogue/arcane Warforged originaly. Not a bad way to go but I'm sold on the pure sorcerer as being the pinacle of solo characters.

[MysticRhythms]

Well argued, although I got DP wrong and its +4 for this build. But none the less you make a good combat argument for the bard.
I also forgot that you went to level 16, in which case you can add +2 to hit and +1 to damage to the spellsinger because of Bard 14 and Inspired Attack III while going Rogue2/Spellsinger14. I'd hate clicking on DP scrolls all the time though.


I disagree with that. Nothing can stand up to the raw power of a pure sorcerer, especialy when it comes to solo play.
No no - I meant a solid team of three would be your sorcerer and the Paladin2/Cleric14 and the Rogue2/Spellsinger14. There's no way I'd drop the arcanist from the group.


Again you loose out on the powerhouse character. A rogue wizard is a pale shadow of a pure sorcerer in terms of simply dominating combat encounters.
Probably right. I like the versatility the Wizard offers with spell swapping.


I certainly can't argue wtih that. The requester mentioned going with too rogue/arcane Warforged originaly. Not a bad way to go but I'm sold on the pure sorcerer as being the pinacle of solo characters.
Heck, two warforged characters - a sorcerer and a wizard/rogue could bring enough healing and mana to not have to worry about much.

[sigtrent]

Divine Power would actually be a +4 Boost then. Raises BAB to Level. .
Ya, noticed that when checking where I used Divine Might and updated it, thanks!



54 Disable is barely adequet for Current level cap WHo knows what we'll see in Mod 6. and thats 54 with a Boost..... What are you going to do in a Dungeon like Maze of Madness?.

True, 56 is the no-blow for level 14 content... perhaps some more disable is called for somewhere... Still, if you are willing to take a small chance its not too far short. I'm not sure I'd call it barely adequete. I've done Maze with less than that on elite and didn't blow any traps. As for how to do it wiht boost... use the shrine? I don't think there are more than 10 traps in there. My rogue always boosts on traps unless I'm slumming a dungeon and I can't recall ever running out unless I forgot to rest before the quest and start with only 1 use or the like.


Its just the skills that bother me... 19/54...... I like to see the actual breakdown.

I'll break em down, thanks!

[brshelton]

IMO failing on a 3 instead of a 1 is fine. Swap for Head of Good Fortune or Staff of Arcane Power or Rabbit Gloves and your set. Get lucky with a +15 item or just get a +15 in Mod6 and your set. Theres plenty of pure rogues with less than what this build has especially considering the self/partner buffing on.

[Impaqt]

1 Is not an auto Fail on a Trap.

We're not talking about failing on just a 1-3 56 IS A no BLOW mark.... DC's are documented to 61

Theres 16 Traps in Maze of madness. ANd with all the clamoring people have been making about making rogues more useful, I would suspect we'll see more quests with Lots of traps.

I wouldnt consider a rogues skills "Exceptional" until they are auto Succeed.

[sigtrent]

Theres 16 Traps in Maze of madness. ANd with all the clamoring people have been making about making rogues more useful, I would suspect we'll see more quests with Lots of traps.

I had no idea... thanks! To be honest I usualy do about 8-10 of them or often none of them as they are pretty easy to just avoid. I also tend to like skipping over the maze walls after the gates and just avoiding from bridge to end boss with a bit of ballance and jump work. Not that any of that diminishes your point. This guy could have a tough time in MOM elite if the traps are in the upper DC scale. (I'm not really sure what thier DC is, never blown one but also havn't done it as a roge more than a few times)


I wouldnt consider a rogues skills "Exceptional" until they are auto Succeed.

Agreed. Actualy I'd even go so far as to say unless you can do Cabal elite, you arn't at the top of the trapping game. Not that I'd actualy make a character to do that, but for comparison its the high water mark.

I was only going for "adiquate" with this one.

[Impaqt]

Agreed. Actualy I'd even go so far as to say unless you can do Cabal elite, you arn't at the top of the trapping game. Not that I'd actualy make a character to do that, but for comparison its the high water mark.

I was only going for "adiquate" with this one.


Commentary
So.. We have good if not amazing rogue skills, albeit missing spot,

Adequet≠ amazing

How will they "Know where all the traps are" in the new content?

I'd consider Quickening the cleric and putting those skill points into spot as well.

[sigtrent]

Adequet≠ amazing

Ahh, bad use of language on my behalf.. I was trying to say... "theya arn't amazing, but they are good" but endid up saying "they are good or possibly amazing"


How will they "Know where all the traps are" in the new content?

I did consider that... and the answer is... stumble into them on the first attempt. For this build that shouldn't be a problem. The sorcerer might want to hang back a tad... But really I don't think most Duo groups could solo any of the high end stuff on their first try if the quest was not known to them.


I'd consider Quickening the cleric and putting those skill points into spot as well.

I was torn between Quicken and Maximize and putting points in spot over concentration. I also looked at trying too eek out one more point of Int so I could go full spot. Its a tough call. So I agree it is well worth consideration and I think comes down to what you want in your rogue.

[Impaqt]

Lets COnsider SPot a Second.... You did Put 4 ranks in at Creation...

4 Ranks
7 Wisdom Bonus
13 Item
4 Greater
1 Prayer
1 Spot ENH
---
28 Is acheivable on this build already......
You only need 8 or so points to hit the High Water Mark...

your Open Lock far exceeds the current high water mark..... as does Search unless your concerend about the cabal trap (WHich the search DC is coming down in Mod 6)
Take 4 away from both of those and you can hit Spot too..... Everything is within the range for L14 Elite COntent at that point.

[EinarMal]

I think also you might consider just dropping the paladin levels entirely. You are essentially sacrificing level 9 cleric spells for some immunities and +7 to all saves. I am not sure that is a very good trade. Clerics already have good saves, and the rogue + high dex gets your reflex save into the pretty good category.

That frees up build points as well, you don't really need to worry about charisma at that point. I think a better build would be something like a Cleric 14/Rogue 2. You could take a 3rd level of rogue down the line to boost up some skills without giving up level 9 spells.

Taking more than 3 levels outside of a Cleric/Wizard is kind of crazy unless you have a really really good reason. I don't see saves being that good of a reason.

Also saying 14 strength versus 10 and adding power attack is a minimal gain (+7 damage per swing) is pretty crazy as well. Right now you cannot overcome any DR to land those types of effects, that +7 would make a huge difference in that regard and also means you could do something against red names.


Str 10+6(DP) +2 (Tome) +2(Rage Spell)
Damage Per Swing:
Str 5
DF 3
Weapon 5
+13/10

Str 14+6(DP)+2(Tome)+2(Spell)
Damage Per Swing:
Str 7
DF 3
Weapon 5
PA 5
+20/16

You have increaed your DPS by about 57% with normal weapons and now can punch through DR 15 with the offhand easily. To me if your going to be the melee half of the team you need to be a little bit more versatile in the types of damage and weapons you can use.

[EinarMal]

I also agree with the other poster who said the best duo pair in the game (certainly at high levels) would be a warforged sorcerer and a warforged wizard/rogue. Min/Max the warforged sorcerer with all points into Cha/Con and enough Int for whatever skills you want. The Wizard would also be very versatile. You have tons of spells at your disposable, both can heal themselves and each other, that is a ton of power packed into two characters that will only increase as the cap increases.

The wizard can utilize insightful reflexes to get a very good reflex save in the next Mod as well....so dex is not really that needed at all, you can pretty much dump stat it.

[Taerdra]

I know this is way too early to say... but this build with Monk instead of Pally would probably be very, very sweet... depending on implementation of course...

BAB would suffer tho...

[binnsr]

Its just the skills that bother me... 19/54...... I like to see the actual breakdown.


I'll break em down, thanks!
This is how I denote skills in my builds: (this is taken from the lvl14 actual snapshot of one of my characters builds)


Skills:
Disable Device: 47 / 57 = 17 Ranks +4 (18 Int) +2 (Enh) +15 (Item) +7 (tools) +2 (HoGF) +4 (Greater Heroism) +3 (Ventilated Bracers) +3 (+6 Int ring)
Open Lock: 49 / 53 = 17 Ranks +10 (30 Dex) +13 (Item) +7 (tools) +2 (HoGF) +4 (Greater Heroism)
Search: 41 / 48 = 17 Ranks +4 (18 Int) +2 (Racial) +3 (Enh) +13 (Item) +2 (HoGF) +4 (Greater Heroism) +3 (+6 Int ring)
Spot: 33 / 40 = 17 Ranks +2 (15 Wis) +2 (Racial) +10 (Item) +2 (HoGF) +4 (Greater Heroism) +3 (+5 Wis Hat)
Hide: 35 / 39 = 9 Ranks +10 (30 Dex) +2 (Enh) +10 (Muffled Veneer) +2 (HoGF) +2 (Way of the Assassin) +4 (Greater Heroism)
Move Silently: 35 / 39 = 9 Ranks +10 (30 Dex) +2 (Enh) +10 (Muffled Veneer) +2 (HoGF) +2 (Way of the Assassin) +4 (Greater Heroism)
UMD: 32 / 36 = 17 Ranks +7 (24 Cha) +3 (Golden Cartouche) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (HoGF) +4 (Greater Heroism)
I would like to see how you arrive at your stat numbers as well (I can usually figure it out, but then, I put together all my builds)
And again, here is how I show mine: (from the same build)



Base Points Base Tome Lvl Enh Buff Final mod
STR 8 0 8 0 1 5 14 2
DEX 10 6 16 2 2 4 6 30 10
CON 6 4 10 1 0 0 3 14 2
INT 10 6 16 1 1 0 6 24* 4
WIS 8 6 14 1 0 0 5 20* 5
CHA 10 6 16 2 0 0 6 24 7
* Only equipped when needed
When I put a table like that in my builds, it means that I've copy-pasted it directly from my build spreadsheet.

I do like the color breakdown that you use for most of your stuff, though.

[sigtrent]

When I put a table like that in my builds, it means that I've copy-pasted it directly from my build spreadsheet.

I do like the color breakdown that you use for most of your stuff, though.

How did you do the table? I really wanted a table but the code tag didn't work and whenever I have mroe than one space it truncates it down to one space so I just couldn't geta table to stay lined up.

If you can email me the BBcode I'd appreciate it..
sigfried@gmail.com

[sigtrent]

your Open Lock far exceeds the current high water mark..... as does Search unless your concerend about the cabal trap (WHich the search DC is coming down in Mod 6)
Take 4 away from both of those and you can hit Spot too..... Everything is within the range for L14 Elite COntent at that point.

Thanks! I didn't really think it through that far, but that's really a great help. I'll make the adjustment.

[binnsr]

Click the A/A button in the upper right corner so that you get the 'raw' formating page rather than WYSIWYG page.
Then paste in the block of text (in my case, from my spreadsheet) in and surround it with a code tag. The WYSIWYG editing box is what is killing you there. it's pretty easy to screw the tables up when editing the post after the initial post, in which case, you'll have to re-paste from wherever you've got it with the tabs intact.

I've used the tables before for skills too, but if you have enough important skills, the code block gets a scroll bar which I don't like - so when I'm doing a build with a lot of skills (i.e. rogues), I use the format above. (an example of them in table format is in this build (http://www.housetharashk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2681))

[sigtrent]

Click the A/A button in the upper right corner so that you get the 'raw' formating page rather than WYSIWYG page.
Then paste in the block of text (in my case, from my spreadsheet) in and surround it with a code tag. The WYSIWYG editing box is what is killing you there. it's pretty easy to screw the tables up when editing the post after the initial post, in which case, you'll have to re-paste from wherever you've got it with the tabs intact.

I've used the tables before for skills too, but if you have enough important skills, the code block gets a scroll bar which I don't like - so when I'm doing a build with a lot of skills (i.e. rogues), I use the format above. (an example of them in table format is in this build (http://www.housetharashk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2681))

Ahh, see I generaly paste them in the non wysiwyg then switch back to preview the post to see if I missed anything and it garbles a lot of stuff at that point. I'm not sure I'm up for having to re-paste when editing a build since I do it fairly often, but its good to know!

[binnsr]

Ahh, see I generaly paste them in the non wysiwyg then switch back to preview the post to see if I missed anything and it garbles a lot of stuff at that point. I'm not sure I'm up for having to re-paste when editing a build since I do it fairly often, but its good to know!
Whichever version of vBulletin houseTharashk.com is using is much more forgiving of edits (since the default edit mode is non-WYSIWYG) than the one that Turbine is using, which is the main reason I keep using the blocks of text..

on that note, I wonder if there's a setting for the default editing mode around here somewhere...

edit: under Options (in the Miscellaneous section), change "Message Editor Interface" from "Enhanced Interface - Full WYSIWYG Editing" to "Standard Interface - Extra Formating Controls"

[st_alia]

My husband and I often play with just the two of us, and he forwarded me the link to this thread.

Thank you so much for the idea and build. We currently have a warforged paladin and human bard/rogue as a duo, but i can see us going down this road if we start having problems in higher quests.