DPS: STR Dwarf vs. DEX Elf [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Pellegro

01-09-2008, 08:46 AM

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 08:56 AM

I hear elven DEX builds criticized all the time as not being able to do the DPS of a dwarven STR build.

Has anyone actually run the #s on this?

Assume level 14 dwarven ranger max STR vs. level 14 elven ranger max DEX.
Assume dwarven ranger is dual wielding DAs.
Assume elven ranger is dual wielding rapiers.
Assume dwarf has IMPCRIT slash; and elf has IMPCRIT pierce.
Assume both have PowerAttack.
Assume elf has finesse; assume dwarf has [pick a feat - weapon focus?]
Assume dwarf has pumped all stat points and possible enhancements into STR and elf has done same for DEX. Assume no tomes, or a +1 to round up if needed.

If you're really good, take into consideration the to-hits as part of the calculation with an assumed mob AC of around 35 (which seems about right?).

Thanks if you are up for the challenge. I may try to do it myself later but thought maybe someone else enjoyed this type of thing .....

There really isn't that much of a difference. Str rangers have, maybe a +5 better str mod? I think most str rangers have a 30 at end game with +6 stat item and +1 tome. My dex ranger has a 20 end game str. So in that case a +5 better mod, which is just +5 damage. Then, their dwarvens do 2 extra damage. I think dwarven and rapier are about the same damage if dwarven was a d8 since I already added the extra base damage. So....about +7 better damage with like about a -2 to-hit then a dex ranger. So really, there is not a noticeable difference, a str ranger is not better then a dex. Plus, dex ranger benefit more from evasion cause of their high reflex saves so they are a little more self sufficient I think.

Maybe that is just me though. I'm sure someone has more exact numbers, I just don't feel like doing them either, lol.

Fallout

01-09-2008, 11:12 AM

There really isn't that much of a difference. Str rangers have, maybe a +5 better str mod? I think most str rangers have a 30 at end game with +6 stat item and +1 tome. My dex ranger has a 20 end game str. So in that case a +5 better mod, which is just +5 damage. Then, their dwarvens do 2 extra damage. I think dwarven and rapier are about the same damage if dwarven was a d8 since I already added the extra base damage. So....about +7 better damage with like about a -2 to-hit then a dex ranger. So really, there is not a noticeable difference, a str ranger is not better then a dex. Plus, dex ranger benefit more from evasion cause of their high reflex saves so they are a little more self sufficient I think.

Maybe that is just me though. I'm sure someone has more exact numbers, I just don't feel like doing them either, lol.

Have you tried a ST based TWF char vs Dex base? Its a big difference. You did not even count PA which ST builds would usually take. You also did not take account of crit multipliers of weapons.

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 11:24 AM

Have you tried a ST based TWF char vs Dex base? Its a big difference. You did not even count PA which ST builds would usually take. You also did not take account of crit multipliers of weapons.

Well Fallout, he said to assume that BOTH build had powerattack, so you can scratch that there, sir. About the crit multiplier, yes, a dwarven has a higher crit multiplier, but it crits 1/3 as often. Rapier 15-20, Dwarven 19-20. 15-20 is 6 rolls to be able to crit on, 19-20 is 2, so rapier crits 3 times as much. So I think a rapier actually does more damage.

Getting tired of abbreviations, I don't know what ST is. Do you mean STR? I don't mean to be rude about it, but I have never seen it as ST.

brshelton

01-09-2008, 11:37 AM

I know my dwarven ranger STR based all raged out will hit a 40 STR at level 16. Dwarven Axes do 1d10 with a 20x3 vs Rapiers 1d6 with a 18-20x2. Most rapier builds will be puncturing though so the DPS won't be equivalent but they will have con damage being dealt. The DPS really isn't comparable the dwarf does more period and frees up a feat slot for say oversized TWF to get a better to hit with those duel axes. Dwarves will also have more hp and better balance. I have played a finesse and a Dwarven STR and can say the STR wins without a doubt. I know its just PvP but my 8/2 Ranger Fighter took on a 14 Dex build in a duel and won. Given it was the low con that killed him as he was at half health then died but another disadavantage between elves and dwarves. Dwarves start 4 con higher. I'm dling the DPS calculator later to crunch it for you.

NO CONTEST also take note of how much higher the break point for power attack is on the STR based so end game power attack is trash for the dex build

Str Based
40 STR 22 Dex
Power Attack
Hasted
TWF-GTWF
IC Slash
+4 Weapon

Dex Based
20 STR 36 Dex
Power Attack
Hasted
TWF-GTWF
IC Piercing
+4 Weapon

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/nwn/analyze.php?1label=Dwarven+Str+Based&1game=ddo&1bab=16&1atktype=dw&1phd=1d10&1phth=%2B4&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d10&1ohth=%2B4&1ohthreat=20%2Fx3&1ohxcrit=&1ohcrit=on&1str=40&1dex=22&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1pwr=on&1hasted=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1aoopct=0&1cleavepct=0&1circlekickpct=0&2label=Elven+Dex+Based&2game=ddo&2bab=16&2atktype=dw&2phd=1d6&2phth=%2B4&2phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d6&2ohth=%2B4&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2ohcrit=on&2str=20&2dex=36&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2finess=on&2pwr=on&2hasted=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2aoopct=&2cleavepct=&2circlekickpct=&maxac=40

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 11:49 AM

I know my dwarven ranger STR based all raged out will hit a 40 STR at level 16. Dwarven Axes do 1d10 with a 20x3 vs Rapiers 1d6 with a 18-20x2. Most rapier builds will be puncturing though so the DPS won't be equivalent but they will have con damage being dealt. The DPS really isn't comparable the dwarf does more period and frees up a feat slot for say oversized TWF to get a better to hit with those duel axes. Dwarves will also have more hp and better balance. I have played a finesse and a Dwarven STR and can say the STR wins without a doubt. I know its just PvP but my 8/2 Ranger Fighter took on a 14 Dex build in a duel and won. Given it was the low con that killed him as he was at half health then died but another disadavantage between elves and dwarves. Dwarves start 4 con higher. I'm dling the DPS calculator later to crunch it for you.

NO CONTEST also take note of how much higher the break point for power attack is on the STR based

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/nwn/analyze.php?1label=Dwarven+Str+Based&1game=ddo&1bab=16&1atktype=dw&1phd=1d10&1phth=%2B4&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d10&1ohth=%2B4&1ohthreat=20%2Fx3&1ohxcrit=&1ohcrit=on&1str=40&1dex=22&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1pwr=on&1hasted=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1aoopct=0&1cleavepct=0&1circlekickpct=0&2label=Elven+Dex+Based&2game=ddo&2bab=16&2atktype=dw&2phd=1d6&2phth=%2B4&2phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d6&2ohth=%2B4&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2ohcrit=on&2str=20&2dex=36&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2finess=on&2pwr=on&2hasted=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2aoopct=&2cleavepct=&2circlekickpct=&maxac=40

To be honest, I think my ranged ranger would beat your melee str ranger without a doubt. Can't hit me if you can't catch me. Muhahahahahaha. So no, PvP, you would prolly not win. In quest, you would probably win. But in quest, I don't really care who does better, a dex build helps out the party as much as a str. It's about getting the quest done, not who gets more on that kill count. :)

A dex ranger doesn't go dex to two weapon fight. He mostly does it for ranged, so it's actually no point in comparing that much. Dex ranger is for ranged, str ranger is for melee, can they both do vise versa? Yes, can they do it as well as the other? No. That's the way it is.

I'm not saying one is better then the other. I have a dex ranger, but I'm going to be making a str one soon. I love them both, they are both amazing builds. Rangers are the best class in the game in my opinion.

brshelton

01-09-2008, 11:57 AM

To be honest, I think my ranged ranger would beat your melee str ranger without a doubt. Can't hit me if you can't catch me. Muhahahahahaha. So no, PvP, you would prolly not win. In quest, you would probably win. But in quest, I don't really care who does better, a dex build helps out the party as much as a str. It's about getting the quest done, not who gets more on that kill count. :)

A dex ranger doesn't go dex to two weapon fight. He mostly does it for ranged, so it's actually no point in comparing that much. Dex ranger is for ranged, str ranger is for melee, can they both do vise versa? Yes, can they do it as well as the other? No. That's the way it is.

I'm not saying one is better then the other. I have a dex ranger, but I'm going to be making a str one soon. I love them both, they are both amazing builds. Rangers are the best class in the game in my opinion.

I refuse to fight bow users in PvP lol. Dex is not just for bows its for melee also its just inferior in melee. And bow builds also. Buddy of mine has a 11/2/1 Barb/Rogue/Ranger that hits a 45 STR all raged out coupled with bow strength its sick as all hell. He throws on the W/P and UMDs a fire arrow wand hes getting sick DPS from his STR and the fire arrows and dropping their hp at the same time. Its devastating build haste boosted and hasted and manyshotted all at once.

And ChildrenofBodom JOIN NAARP (NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF RANGER PEOPLE) FIGHT FOR RANGERS REP!!! the sarlona chapter is booming just put the capitalized letters in your bio we're not actually a guild.

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 12:04 PM

I refuse to fight bow users in PvP lol.

LOL!!

And ChildrenofBodom JOIN NAARP (NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF RANGER PEOPLE) FIGHT FOR RANGERS REP!!! the sarlona chapter is booming just put the capitalized letters in your bio we're not actually a guild.

O_o Where is that at?

brshelton

01-09-2008, 12:13 PM

LOL!!

O_o Where is that at?

NAARP is an organization started by me while leveling up my ranger to combat the prejudice and hate we face every day as rangers! Fight for our reps! Currently we only have a Sarlona chapter but feel free to start one on your server.

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 12:38 PM

NAARP is an organization started by me while leveling up my ranger to combat the prejudice and hate we face every day as rangers! Fight for our reps! Currently we only have a Sarlona chapter but feel free to start one on your server.

I can't find it. :(

Link-age?

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 01:25 PM

I'm willing to bet that like most cases, it depends on the situation.

In this case, I'd say that on low AC mobs, the str-based dwarf will do more damage. The dex build has a higher potential to-hit, so at some point on the AC ladder it makes sense that the dex build will start doing more damage.

Also, note that we are comparing very different weapon types. Rapiers don't do great damage, but when you combine them with on-crit effects like bursting or maiming, they ramp up quickly. Dorf axes do better straight damage but receive notably less benefit from on-crit effects. In other words, we're comparing apples to oranges here. A better comparison might be Kukuris to Scimtars.

Two additional benefits that I haven't seen discussed:

1) A dex based build will not have to stretch stats to meet the TWF requirements (for STWF prior to Tempest 2; or for ITWF/GTWF for multiclass ranger types). A str-based build will have to... min conceivable dex would be 14 (with using a +5 tome at level 20... hah). A more realistic starting dex is 17 or 18... expensive for a str-based build.
2) Armor class - the dex build has a higher potential armor class... however, due to (what I understand to be) faulty DDO mechanics, a dex-based build loses most of its AC when knocked down (I think I read this on the forums here a few times, but it's possible I'm wrong on this part).

Benjai

01-09-2008, 02:28 PM

I don't know how someone figures 46 Str, but thats gotta be really situational and can't be relied upon. If its assume madstone rage (2 minutes per rest...) then that also cripples any casting ability. Plus whats stopping a dex build from raging for extra damage?

Dex Build:
20 Starting Dex + 3 Levelups + 2 Tome + 5 Enchantments + 6 item = 36 Dex =13 tohit and AC
14 Starting Str + 2 Tome + 6 Item = 22 Str = 6 Damage

Str Build
18 Str + 3 Levelups + 2 Tome + 6 Item = 29 Str = 9 Damage and tohit
17 Dex + 2 Tome + 3 enchatments +6 Item = 28 Dex = 9 AC

So for 3 extra damage, you're sacrificing 4 tohit and AC.

Talon_Moonshadow

01-09-2008, 02:48 PM

I can't talk about end game too much for either of these, but at low and mid lvls, Str rules! Dex is ****.
I have several Dex based toons.......none of which ever have a high kill count......doesn't mean they aren't fun to play. Also my friends Rgr14 is mostly a dex build. He does get a lot of kills, but it is more from special purpose rapiers than DPS.

On the oher hand every one of my Str based Ftrs rules!
My Dwarf Ftr7 being the best for no apparent reason.......no planning on this toon at all...started with 17 Str. Just great enhancements on Dwarfs that really make a significant difference in the current game content.

Dex is great for reflex saves.....easily the most important save in the game. Dex toons are very survivable for this reason....and they do hit well either with finesse or ranged.

But Str does the damage and dwarfs are extremely survivable as well do to their enhancements and other bonuses.

All that being said though: I do prefer the dex builds.....Dwarfs just are not my style. And for other races the Dex builds tend to be more survivable do to the high reflex save....to me it's more fun to be the last guy standing than having the high kill count. Plus I like the two weapon style.

sigtrent

01-09-2008, 02:57 PM

You have to break this down scientificaly and take out the extraneous factors....

Weapon Comparison
1d10 19-10 X 3
vs
1d6 15-20 X 2

The axe has higher base damage and a weaker crit profile (axe = 4 and rapier = 6) Whether crit damage outpaces base damage depends on base damage bonuses. The better the damage bonuses the more the rapier looks better.

All in all the rapier has a bit more potential but the axe is more reliable because it relies less on crits and some mosnters are simply immune to crits.

Stat Comparison
Accuracy: The dex build can get a higher bonus. Elf can start at 20(+2), gets +2 racial and +3 for class so they can have 7 more dex, aka +3-4 to hit.

Damage: The strength build clearly can do more damage. Four level ups (+3), Likely +4-6 on starting Str for an 7-9pt advantage, aka +3-5 damage.

Feat Comparison
Finesse: The finesse build get's one less feat. Rangers at 14 get 5 feats. Looking for pure dps they both can take Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Oversize TWF, Improved Critical which are all the damage/accuracy feats available that they don't already get for free, so the advantage is nill on pure DPS.

So...
Winner for DPS against low AC monsters: Strength... but not by much due to the rapiers better crit profile
Winner for DPS agaisnt high AC mosnters: Dex, not by a ton but their accuracy becomes more important than the bonus damage.
Winner for DPS against non-crit monsters: Strength... although with the caviot that they can hit them reliably, otherwise dex might have an edge.
Overall DPS winner: A tough call but I'd say Dex, because rapiers are a bit better of a weapon on most targets and their accuracy lets them run with power attack with less worries about whiffing.

Bonus category....
Build versatility: Str build dwarf wins. The Str build can afford to spend a bit less on dex but still maintian a simmilar AC due to armor dex interactions. This means while the dex build must make an investment in Str to keep up in DPS as where the Str build needs less dex investment. The Dwarf also has more con and toughness enhancments (if you take toughness) so he's going to be more durable overall. The extra feat the Dwarf gets can also be used to allow a wider range of build strategies.

sigtrent

01-09-2008, 03:02 PM

20 Starting Dex + 3 Levelups + 2 Tome + 5 Enchantments + 6 item = 36 Dex =13 tohit and AC

17 Dex + 2 Tome + 3 enchatments +6 Item = 28 Dex = 9 AC

So for 3 extra damage, you're sacrificing 4 tohit and AC.

Not so much on AC...
Mithral BP + am 3 = 10armor + 8dex = 18
AC 7 bracers + 13 dex = 20

So due to armor use the dex guy only wins by 2 AC, although it does cost STR guy some enhancements

jakeelala

01-09-2008, 03:05 PM

you forgot to mention the MUCH higher reflex save of the dex build which maximizes Evasion and makes them quite a bnit less likely to take damage than a STR build from all sorts of things, evening out if not outpacing the extra HP of a dwarven Toughness build

EinarMal

01-09-2008, 03:07 PM

Not so much on AC...
Mithral BP + am 3 = 10armor + 8dex = 18
AC 7 bracers + 13 dex = 20

So due to armor use the dex guy only wins by 2 AC, although it does cost STR guy some enhancements

Don't eventually armored bracers go up to +10? At least long term that will be even more of an advantage.

Benjai

01-09-2008, 03:22 PM

Not so much on AC...
Mithral BP + am 3 = 10armor + 8dex = 18
AC 7 bracers + 13 dex = 20

So due to armor use the dex guy only wins by 2 AC, although it does cost STR guy some enhancementsBetter AC would be white dragonscale robes with a chaosgarde for a dex base.

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 04:15 PM

I can't talk about end game too much for either of these, but at low and mid lvls, Str rules! Dex is ****.
I have several Dex based toons.......none of which ever have a high kill count.I'm betting that's playstyle or toon build more than anything. My TWF finesse ranger rarely has any (melee) competition for top kill count, and I'm not using stat damage.

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 04:19 PM

Not so much on AC...
Mithral BP + am 3 = 10armor + 8dex = 18
AC 7 bracers + 13 dex = 20

So due to armor use the dex guy only wins by 2 AC, although it does cost STR guy some enhancementsAnd a LOT of investment into dex, for a str-based character at least (granted, required for STWF and all).

I was messing around with this a bit last night, trying to figure out str- or dex-based for a tempest build. I ended up arriving at this: the str-based build essentially has to put all stat points into str/dex/con; while the dex-based build can spread things out a bit, and drop a few points into int/wis/cha if desired.

Pellegro

01-09-2008, 04:27 PM

Yeah I was asking b/c I had always played high dex, reasonably high str builds, and been pretty happy with my dps. (Starting stats: 20 dex and 16 str). Their squishy compared to a dwarf, but that has seldom been a problem.

So I threw together a TWF str based dwarf ranger. I went ranger for the free TWF feats (maybe a mistake ...?). Anyhow, I really don't see that much (if any) improvement in the DPS on the dwarf build, especially since if I kick PA on and try to dual wield Dwarven axes, I actually miss a fair amount. On the ranger, I can kick PA on and dual wield rapiers and still seldom miss.

I used to think the STR build would clearly win on DPS. Now I'm not so sure.

brshelton

01-09-2008, 04:33 PM

I can't find it. :(

Link-age?

no website just made it up with some buddys questing some day

Pellegro

01-09-2008, 04:46 PM

NO CONTEST also take note of how much higher the break point for power attack is on the STR based so end game power attack is trash for the dex build

Str Based
40 STR 22 Dex
Power Attack
Hasted
TWF-GTWF
IC Slash
+4 Weapon

Dex Based
20 STR 36 Dex
Power Attack
Hasted
TWF-GTWF
IC Piercing
+4 Weapon

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/nwn/analyze.php?1label=Dwarven+Str+Based&1game=ddo&1bab=16&1atktype=dw&1phd=1d10&1phth=%2B4&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=&1phcrit=on&1ohd=1d10&1ohth=%2B4&1ohthreat=20%2Fx3&1ohxcrit=&1ohcrit=on&1str=40&1dex=22&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1pwr=on&1hasted=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&1aoopct=0&1cleavepct=0&1circlekickpct=0&2label=Elven+Dex+Based&2game=ddo&2bab=16&2atktype=dw&2phd=1d6&2phth=%2B4&2phthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2phxcrit=&2phcrit=on&2ohd=1d6&2ohth=%2B4&2ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&2ohxcrit=&2ohcrit=on&2str=20&2dex=36&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2finess=on&2pwr=on&2hasted=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&2aoopct=&2cleavepct=&2circlekickpct=&maxac=40

I took a look at the actual calculations the DPS tool uses, and I think its wrong. Seems to be using STR as the to hit mod for the ranger despite having finesse. The crit calculations also don't look right, although not sure why.

Talon_Moonshadow

01-09-2008, 04:52 PM

I'm betting that's playstyle or toon build more than anything. My TWF finesse ranger rarely has any (melee) competition for top kill count, and I'm not using stat damage.

Well, my pure dex builds have usually been on other servers than my main, so they lack good equipment (weapons) to go with the build.
Actually, I have a recent rogue build that TWFs with some decent weapons and does get a decent kill count quiet often. I think good weapons can make a big difference, but my basic argument is that STR is superior for DPS.

Yes, Finesse builds can be quite good, but I think the right STR build can out DPS them in most cases.

I've heard stories about Duel Dwarven axe weilding STR based rangers that rock!

None of my toons have concentrated on Intimidate, but I've noticed that a friend of mine's intimitank can get some great kill numbers because he brings everything right to him......I usually run with the rogue I mentioned above when I group with him, and I get my highest kill numbers when he has intimidated everything around him........lots of sneak attack damage then!!!

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 04:53 PM

Seems to be using dex as the to hit mod for the ranger despite having finesse. Typo? :confused:

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 04:58 PM

Well, my pure dex builds have usually been on other servers than my main, so they lack good equipment (weapons) to go with the build.A finesse build is almost entirely dependent on having good weapons. Since finesse weapons provide less "straight" damage, they must rely on special effects (typically on-crit effects). So if your finesse build has junk weapons, you really shouldn't be surprised at the mediocre performance.

Actually, I have a recent rogue build that TWFs with some decent weapons and does get a decent kill count quiet often. I think good weapons can make a big difference, but my basic argument is that STR is superior for DPS.As I stated above, finesse is generally useless without special weapon effects. If we were talking about a straight +5 rapier and a straight +5 dorf axe, I don't think this thread would have gone more than three posts.

Slayer918

01-09-2008, 05:02 PM

Builds assume Tempest 2, Power Attack, IC, OTWF, bloodstone

str build:

str = 18 +6 item +4 levels +2 tome +2 Ram's Might +2 Rage Potion = 34

to-hit:
16 BaB
12 str
2 enhancement
5 weapon
-5 power attack
4 GH
-2 TWF
32

Damage:
5.5 dwarven axe
12 str
5 weapon
2 Ram's Might
12 V. Favored Enemies
5 Power Attack
2 Weapon Enhancement
43.5 points of damage/hit
37.5 points of damage/offhand hit
~40.5 (since with STWF you'll have 5/5 mainhand/offhand hits)
(23 * 40.5 + 36)/20 = 48.375 points/hit

Dex build:

Str = 16 +6 item +2 Rage +2 Ram's Might = 26
Dex = 20 +6 item +2 tome +4 levels +4 enhancement = 36

to hit:
13 dex
16 BaB
4 GH
5 Weapon
2 enhancement
-2 TWF
-5 Power Attack
33

Damage:
3.5 rapier
8 str
12 V. FE
5 Power Attack
5 weapon
2 enhancement
2 Ram's Might
37.5
33.5
~35.5

(25 * 35.5 + 72)/20 = 47.975 points/hit

A dwarven strength based ranger in Mod 7 (I like planning ahead :D) will have +32 to-hit and do 48.375 points of damage/hit
An elven dex/strength based ranger in Mod 7 will have +33 to-hit and do 47.975 points of damage/hit...

Not really what I expected the Dex based ranger w/ 26 str actually has a higher DPS (although this is solely because ranger has such high damage/hit from FE, RM etc, that the improved criticals of the rapier surpase the dwarven axe... so A strength based elven ranger would have significantly higher damage per hit then either build)

Talon_Moonshadow

01-09-2008, 05:07 PM

You don't need to use a calculator to see a few basics.

Str adds to hit and to damage.
Dex will add to hit with finesse weapons but not to damage.
Rapiers have a great crit range.......but so do Scimitars.

A high STR melee will get more damage with whatever weapon is being used than a high dex toon will.
All of the things you can do with a dex build could be done with a str build and get the str bonus added to the damage.

From personal experiance, dwarven waraxes and dwarven axe damage enhancements make for some serious DPS and allow you to use a shield!

You might be able to build a TWF melee who gets a ton of crits with a finesse weapon like a rapier.......but I think you could also build a TWF Dwarf to do the same thing (maybe more difficult to build)

THanded weapons give even higher damage and allow you to hit multiple targets......so again, I see an advantage to STR based melees.

I'm not saying you can't make a very effective dex based toon........I've just saying that STR will yeild more DPS if all other factors are equal.......
And that Dwarf enhancements and abilities go along way in this game.....lots of Giants and Hobgoblins to fight....lot of spells being cast on you to get that bonus to saves to help you out.....lot of HP from that Toughness feat...etc.

I might prefer a dex TWF/ranging elf, but I would argue that the STR Dwarf has better DPS and more advantages in current DDO.

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 05:17 PM

bobbryan2

01-09-2008, 05:32 PM

Talon_Moonshadow

01-09-2008, 05:37 PM

Read the OP man. We aren't talking about scimitars, it's strictly dwarvens and rapiers. Also, you are wrong, a dex build has a higher to-hit because an elf can start with 20 dex and you get all those dex enhancements. So a dex build would hit a lot more. So no, it's not really basics, bro.

Another thing, yes, dwarves get enhancements for dwarvens......but elves get enhancements for rapiers......so for less confusion just leave them out cause they give the same bonus.

Just my thoughts.

At lvl 1, no one has flaming weapons of uberness, and Kobolds only have so many HP, that any Rapier/crit bonuses would not matter at all.
At lvl14 no one ever misses on any attack, ever....so that extra +1 to hit is meaningless.

If you are limiting the discussion to "which is better? One dwarven waraxe, or two rapiers? of equal power" well....I suppose you could get some better DPS with the rapiers, at certain lvls of play.

But over all, I still say that STR is better for DPS....and Dwarves are better for melee than elves. (drow is another issue)

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 05:40 PM

Why is everyone assuming one-handed weapons?

Improved crit slashing
Sword of Shadows
Power Attack

2d6 (15-20x3)

Can you honestly say that any TWF build can beat a strength based melee with the SoS. Remember that power attack bonus is doubled for two handed weapons, and the strength bonus to damage is 1.5 times as much.

My dwarven ranger can hit 200 point crits with just a +5 greataxe against favored enemies with a couple buffs, and he only has 26 strength.

As long as an elf doesn't completely disregard strength, they can still put out halfway decent damage.. but they're not going to have the brute force... that should be obvious.

I'm just saying...

Do YOU honestly believe that a str based ranger with an SOS can beat my barbarian with an SOS? If you use the SOS on a str ranger then you are missing the point of going ranger.

A good build isn't just which one does the most damage and what not, but also has to be fun to play. If I want a total DPS crazyman 200 crit kill everything in my path character, I will play my barb. If I wanna have lots of fun playing a toon, I play my ranger.

Why crit for 200 on favored enemies when you can do it to any enemy? Like I said before, if you wanna use SOS, make a barb.

THAT is just MY thoughts.

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 06:13 PM

sigtrent

01-09-2008, 06:43 PM

We're discussing TWF builds, not THF builds.

That said, you have completely ignored the number of attacks (in mod 6, TWF will have 2x or more the # of attacks as THF).

I'm a bit surprised that you have a ranger who uses THF. A fighter or barbarian would be much better suited for that.

My ranger (lowish level) occasionaly u uses a two hander to pound through DR, but now that transmuting is around... at high level there isn't much point.

Barbarians do better DPS than ragners no matter what weapon style you are talking about. TWF barbarians are for my money the best DPS characters in the game. (excluding spell damage)

TWF is generaly better DPS that THF for various reasons. It's not a huge gap, but its there. This is especialy true if you have damage bonuses outside of strength, and partly because, asside from SOS, single handed weapons have better crit scores. the extra damage from two handed fighting is about 20 for a glancing blow and 7 for power attack and 7 for strength. So that's around 35 or so, but some of it is rather conditional and glancing is only on first and last swing. The TWF gets an extra 3 full damage attacks (minus .5 str). And they get the benefit of having two weapons for effects like seeker etc... So they can run a seeker 10 pick in the off hadn and a full damage pick in the main hand.

I have a THF Barbarian/Warchanter etc... Trust me that his Attack/Damage is about as good as a THF barbarian of his level (12). I think buffed I have about +27 to hit and +42 damage (in addition to base weapon and effects). I don't have the crit range of a true barbarian, but I'm only off on that by 5% at that level. I did TS last night with 3 full barbarians, 2 sorcs, a rogue, lots of rangers etc... One of the guys was a THF barbarian with picks/rapiers dpending on the enemies. The highest kill count among the THF barbs, TWF rangers, sorcs and rogues was 15 and ranged from 4 - 15, I think the other two barbarians were 10 and 12 respectively. I had 26 kills. The TWF barbarian had 42. TWF barbarrians are killing machines! Especialy paired with a warchanter bard.

ChildrenofBodom

01-09-2008, 06:48 PM

My ranger (lowish level) occasionaly u uses a two hander to pound through DR, but now that transmuting is around... at high level there isn't much point.

Barbarians do better DPS than ragners no matter what weapon style you are talking about. TWF barbarians are for my money the best DPS characters in the game. (excluding spell damage)

TWF is generaly better DPS that THF for various reasons. It's not a huge gap, but its there. This is especialy true if you have damage bonuses outside of strength, and partly because, asside from SOS, single handed weapons have better crit scores. the extra damage from two handed fighting is about 20 for a glancing blow and 7 for power attack and 7 for strength. So that's around 35 or so, but some of it is rather conditional and glancing is only on first and last swing. The TWF gets an extra 3 full damage attacks (minus .5 str). And they get the benefit of having two weapons for effects like seeker etc... So they can run a seeker 10 pick in the off hadn and a full damage pick in the main hand.

I have a THF Barbarian/Warchanter etc... Trust me that his Attack/Damage is about as good as a THF barbarian of his level (12). I think buffed I have about +27 to hit and +42 damage (in addition to base weapon and effects). I don't have the crit range of a true barbarian, but I'm only off on that by 5% at that level. I did TS last night with 3 full barbarians, 2 sorcs, a rogue, lots of rangers etc... One of the guys was a THF barbarian with picks/rapiers dpending on the enemies. The highest kill count among the THF barbs, TWF rangers, sorcs and rogues was 15 and ranged from 4 - 15, I think the other two barbarians were 10 and 12 respectively. I had 26 kills. The TWF barbarian had 42. TWF barbarrians are killing machines! Especialy paired with a warchanter bard.

Now THAT is the basics.

bobbryan2

01-09-2008, 07:22 PM

We're discussing TWF builds, not THF builds.

That said, you have completely ignored the number of attacks (in mod 6, TWF will have 2x or more the # of attacks as THF).

I'm a bit surprised that you have a ranger who uses THF. A fighter or barbarian would be much better suited for that.

It's a discussion about DPS I can tie a hand behind my back, and say.. well, if I only use my left hand... you might be stronger... but such comparisons are not all that useful.

Ranger can get pretty close to fighter or barbarian DPS while fighting favored enemies. So there are very valid DPS reasons to go with a ranger. They can be crazy impressive tanks against favored enemies. Not to mention many shot, bows, 2HF whenever I want to dualwield smiters or somesuch, etc.

With 26 strength, 28 dex, 26 con (350 HP) You can do the best of both worlds... hell, my ranger has 22 wisdom too, and 420 spell points on top of that... 470 if I break out my good equipment.

Strength based rangers give you plenty of versatility... You can use twice the number of available weapons. Find that perfect weapon? You can probably use it. You can switching from dualwielding dwarven axes to a greataxe to rapier/shortsword combo at the touch of a button.

Strength based rangers do more DPS. Period. There are no 'high armor class' mobs in this game. For the couple tough to hit mobs in this game, you could just turn power attack off. You're hard pressed to ever find a mob with an AC above 38ish.. and with a +31 to hit... you only have to roll obscene numbers (like a 7) for the first two swings.

Now.. there are some other reasons to go with a dex based elf... but as far as my 'not so humble' opinion goes... The dwarven ranger is a much scarier entity.

Aranticus

01-09-2008, 07:57 PM

Str Based
40 STR 22 Dex
Power Attack
Hasted
TWF-GTWF
IC Slash
+4 Weapon

Dex Based
20 STR 36 Dex
Power Attack
Hasted
TWF-GTWF
IC Piercing
+4 Weapon

40 str? let me see 18 base +3 (lvl ups) +6 (item) +2 (rage) +4 (2x madstone) +3 (+3 str) = 36 (+8 more for scourge choker)
so the grand total of a str based dwarf ranger can only be maximum 44 str. that is when fully buffed with all the rages possible from items (note assuming pure ranger at L14). w/o buffs the absolute max str is 30. in doing so, by giving the str ranger buffs, you are already skewing the discussion in its favor. my dex based elf ranger has 14 base str. given the same items as you did for the str, my max will be 14 base +6 (item) +2 (rage) +4 (2x madstone) +3 (+3 str) = 29 and not the puny 20 you have listed. the difference is only +4 mod.

Aranticus

01-09-2008, 08:04 PM

many of the discussions only centres around the use of twf as the main mode of attack. is a ranger only good for melee? we have forgotten another aspect of good ranger skills which centers around the use of ranged weapons. while the str based will have a slightly higher damage, elven rangers have a +7 attack bonus advantage. with a nice bow and hitting regular, the elven ranger can wipe out a huge train of mobs in the 20 seconds of multishot. while a str based is awesome for melee, the dex based rangers can perform more roles ie support range or support melee. while they may not be the main topic of discussion, nonetheless, they are an integral part of a ranger

edit: str based rangers are likely to have +4 str mod over dex ranger but elves have elven ranged enhancements which can give them max +2 to attack n +2 to damage). in the same mould, str based dwarves have their axe enhancements cancelled out by elven longsword/rapier enhancement, so this arguement is moot

Soul-Shaker

01-09-2008, 08:09 PM

Rapiers fall behind by a little if we doing damage vs non fav enemies but the more + to mods damage, the gap closes because of the crit power.

20 swings rapier = 19 hits +6 crit power = the same as 25 hits
20 swings DA = 19 +4 crit power = 23 hits.
But DA leads by 2 dmg(3.5 vs 5.5) which is why it leads in dps at lower dmg mods(songs, FE, etc). But at higher mods the extra 2 hits through crit power will catch up or pull ahead when we are factoring no str and same buffs.

ie
25 x (1 mod dmg + 1d6) = 112.5 vs 23 x (1 mod dmg +1d10) = 149.5; but
25 x (25 mod dmg + 1d6) = 712.5 vs 23 x (25 mod dmg + 1d10) = 701.5

Also Alignment burst weapons is where rapiers can pull ahead of dps.
6x3d6 = 18d6 vs 2x4d6 = 8d6 extra alignment dmg from crits.

As for the elf dex vs dwarf str difference

elf dex (20 start dex, 14 start str, Build cost atm 22, min 12 ap for dex)
20 dex start +4 level +3 tome +6 item +5 enhancement +1 abbot trink = 39 dex (+14 mod tohit)
14 str +2 rams +3 tome +6 item +1 abbot trink = 26 str (8/4 twf dmg)
AC: 14 dex +6 AC white scale robe = 20 AC

dwarf str (18 start, 16 dex, Build cost atm 26, 6 min ap dex, +12 more ap to max Dwarven armor in KDS)
18 str +2 rams +4 level +3 tome +6 item +1 abbot trinket = 34 str (+12 tohit 12/6 twf dmg)
16 dex(+3 req for STWF) +3 tome +3 enhancement +6 item +1 abbot trink = 29 dex (+9 dex fits KDS + dwarven armor mast III)
AC: 10AC KDS + 9 dex = 19 AC

Dwarf costs more in stats to meet STWF atm(since mod7 Tempest II enhancement has POSSIBLE plans for free STWF) and more ap to get close to the same AC. Also when monk come out a dex build can gain more ac through wisdom and 1 level of monk while a str build using armor cannot. IE 14 starting wisdom +6 item +3 item +abbot trink = +24 wis = +7 more ac. As for DPS a dwarf has more potential for DPS but this is on lower ac mobs, while the dex build allows for higher dps vs decent ac(range where STR build hits much better with PA off, but Dex build can hit with on), And dex pulls much more ahead on great ac mobs. But these kinds of things only if your self buffed. With Warchanter buffs probably make tohit high enough to just leave PA always on.

To sum it up, not much difference between the 2 in decent group dps wise but dwarf has more much more hp potential(so usually drop maxing ac gear to free up item slots similar to barb) and can use larger selection of weapons when needed while a elf dex build has more ac, utility due to rapier crit range(smite, banish, enfeeb, punct), better range to hit(not that important now that range getting bab progression), and higher tohit for higher ac mobs or still maintain a higher tohit then a str build when using 2 rapiers without taking OTWF, but requires lots of ac gear usually.

Soul-Shaker

01-09-2008, 08:14 PM

Aranticus

01-09-2008, 08:20 PM

If I remember correctly madstone rage str bonus does not stack with chokers buffs. Also I think they factored in lvl 16 stat and ram's might.

ah yes i remember now.... they stack with madstone, just not with normal rage. so max is 42. thanks for the heads up.

as to issue 2, its to highlight that the poster deliberately left out buffs on the dex build to skew the discussion to his favor

QuantumFX

01-09-2008, 09:36 PM

OP: Having both a DEX based (Xoll'an - See sig) and a STR based (Malrani - See Sig) I have come to the conclusion that, currently, a STR based character does more damage. However, it's not the big difference that the STR based camp imagines it to be. (But, hey, I also question the intelligence of players that think barbarians are the end all and be all of melee DPS.)

Now come mod 7 I think the situation will be more on the side of STR not from raw DPS with a racially favored weapon but all around DPS from all medium sized weapons. (Oversized TWF + Rams Might + Tempest 2 = :eek!:)

I'd also like to clarify another other important issue:

- STR builds are just as dependant on special weapons as DEX builds are. The only thing a STR build has it that it can use all the light and medium sized weapons rather than just light weapons and rapiers.

Slayer918

01-09-2008, 10:07 PM

Why is everyone assuming one-handed weapons?

Improved crit slashing
Sword of Shadows
Power Attack

2d6 (15-20x3)

Can you honestly say that any TWF build can beat a strength based melee with the SoS. Remember that power attack bonus is doubled for two handed weapons, and the strength bonus to damage is 1.5 times as much.

My dwarven ranger can hit 200 point crits with just a +5 greataxe against favored enemies with a couple buffs, and he only has 26 strength.

As long as an elf doesn't completely disregard strength, they can still put out halfway decent damage.. but they're not going to have the brute force... that should be obvious.

I'm just saying...

for rangers TWF is just plain better then THF... the reason being is that with STWF str will be multiplied by 1.5 just like it is for THF (just over 10 attacks instead of 5), power attack is doubled as well since you get the full bonus from your offhand swings, TWF doubles the benefit of Ram's Might, Favored enemy damage, weapon effects such as greater bane... sure you can use that greataxe to hit for 200... or you can use a dwarven/handaxe combo and then your mainhand will crit for about 150-160 with 30-40 offhand damage (100-130 crits) meaning instead of that 50 point normal hit you get two hits for 40 and 30 in roughly the same amount of time...

bard buffs also have double the bonus on TWF...

Apostil

01-09-2008, 10:09 PM

It's pretty simple and obvious, if a str based dwarf ranger versed a dex based finess ranger in any quest that's melee oriented and no wounding/puncturing, banishing, smiting and ranged, and if both characters/players had the same gear and skill the str based one would win.
It's really simple in this game str IS melee damage and also a few of you were mentioning that a dex based ranger would beat a str based ranger against high AC mobs? That's just simply not true i'll do the maths down here to show you what's the maximum to-hit a str based dwarf ranger can get self buffed.

BAB: 14
str: 10, aka 30 with a plus 3 str tome and the trinket from the Abbot.
Abbot trinket: 1
+ 5 weapon: 5
weapon focus slashing: 1
axe attack: 2
Greater heroism: 4
Competence bonus: 1

So in the end it adds up to 38 and 36 while dual wielding, ok it's not the best to-hit but besides from a few very minute amount of mobs, like Otto knucklebones in VON 5 on elite, you can hit everything pretty much everytime.
There's also favoured attack which can add some more to your to-hit but I decided not to mention it because it doesn't apply to everything and MOD 6 is coming out in late january that will add up another + 2 from just from the rise of their BAB.
The only real benefits a dex based ranger has over a str based dwarf ranger is dex related stuff bow's to-hit, dex skills and reflex saves a str based dwarf with dwavern spell resistance is pretty much set against casters but against traps they tend to have some problems.

Da'var
Godbane
Diabolist
Apostil
Nightforge
Necromancy
Baalzebub

Strakeln

01-09-2008, 10:29 PM

For those replying to my post, note I wasn't trying to get into the Ranger-vs-Barbarian DPS argument. I was just pointing out that we are discussing TWF builds (the comment I was responding to asked why we weren't talking about THF).

I don't think anyone can possibly disagree that a THF ranger is a build with a lot of wasted (albeit free) feats.

sigtrent

01-09-2008, 11:39 PM

It's pretty simple and obvious, if a str based dwarf ranger versed a dex based finess ranger in any quest that's melee oriented and no wounding/puncturing, banishing, smiting and ranged, and if both characters/players had the same gear and skill the str based one would win.
It's really simple in this game str IS melee damage and also a few of you were mentioning that a dex based ranger would beat a str based ranger against high AC mobs? That's just simply not true i'll do the maths down here to show you what's the maximum to-hit a str based dwarf ranger can get self buffed.

Go back a bit and read my breakdown and you will see it isn't obvious or simple. The truth is that the dex based ranger doesn't nessisarily have all that much less strength than the strength based one if they want to do DPS. Generaly the total is at most 8 strentgh or +4 damge, at the least it is only around 6 or +3 damage, and that is at level 16. At 14 its less difference. A dex ranger can pretty easily start with 16 str if they want to, only 2 shy of the max 18 and then the only difference are level up boosts to dex instead of str, so at 14 thats only a grand total of 5 extra strength. Not much, and they loose half that bonus on the off hand swings.

The rapier is a better weapon than the dwarven axe so the elf has the advantage. Now if both were elves... that might give the nod to the Str build by a smidge.

Soul-Shaker

01-10-2008, 02:08 AM

It's really simple in this game str IS melee damage and also a few of you were mentioning that a dex based ranger would beat a str based ranger against high AC mobs? That's just simply not true i'll do the maths down here to show you what's the maximum to-hit a str based dwarf ranger can get self buffed.

BAB: 14
str: 10, aka 30 with a plus 3 str tome and the trinket from the Abbot.
Abbot trinket: 1
+ 5 weapon: 5
weapon focus slashing: 1
axe attack: 2
Greater heroism: 4
Competence bonus: 1

So in the end it adds up to 38 and 36 while dual wielding

I dont see how this breakdown helps show me that a str dwarf with DA does more dmg then a elf dex with rapiers when going up against really high mobs. Since both sides can still get the same exact buffs for tohit but still different tohit based on stats. First off +5 weapon is to simple to calc dps. Maybe +5 holy min. Second both can get racial attack bonus of same power for there set weapons, weapon focus both can get, abbot trink and comp bonus both can get. It comes down on how much of a difference in tohit from str or dex. A dex build as you saw in my post gets +3 more tohit then a str build on average meaning that if you have 36 dual wielding, then a dex would have 39. So under these conditions lets see who does more dps to a 55 ac mob(yes rarely happens) and just going off of simple 20 first swings to simplify.

This means that a dwarf DA would hit on a 19-20 and could crit(but less likely since he needs to roll another 19-seeker item if on). While a dex build hits on a 16-20 and better chance to confirm being +3 higher tohit. Ill use my 2 builds I posted up top for str.

So just assuming that we dont crit due to fail confirmation
DA = [5.5 +2 +5 weapon +12/6 str +7(holy)] x2 = 63 dmg main/51 dmg offhand
Rapier = [3.5 +2 +5 weapon +8/4 str +7(holy)] x5 = 127.5 dmg main/107.5 dmg offhand

And assuming you crit all times
DA = [(5.5 +2 +5 weapon +12/6 str ) x 3 +7(holy)] x 2 = 161 main/125 offhand
Rapier = [(3.5 +2 +5 weapon +8/4 str) x2 +7(holy)] x5 = 220 mainhand/180 offhand

With weapon effects, which is more standard(holy, grtr bane, etc), a higher tohit verusus extremely high ac mobs favors more dps to the one that hits the most unless you are hitting a target with damage reduction.

Apostil

01-10-2008, 02:10 AM

Go back a bit and read my breakdown and you will see it isn't obvious or simple. The truth is that the dex based ranger doesn't nessisarily have all that much less strength than the strength based one if they want to do DPS. Generaly the total is at most 8 strentgh or +4 damge, at the least it is only around 6 or +3 damage, and that is at level 16. At 14 its less difference. A dex ranger can pretty easily start with 16 str if they want to, only 2 shy of the max 18 and then the only difference are level up boosts to dex instead of str, so at 14 thats only a grand total of 5 extra strength. Not much, and they loose half that bonus on the off hand swings.

The rapier is a better weapon than the dwarven axe so the elf has the advantage. Now if both were elves... that might give the nod to the Str build by a smidge.

Ok, you were wrong about a few of your claims and statements so I ended up doing some maths to prove it, the form in which I did it in is unfloored besides from calculating certain cirucmstances where mobs are vulnerable to crits.
Anyway here it is.

Dwarvern axe verse rapiers

Dwarvern axe
Base damage: 1d10 = 5 on average
str bonus: 10
axe damage enhancement: 2
weapon enhancement: 5

So the damage done by a dwarvern axe done by a non crit is 22.

Lets count how much the crits do here.
22 X 3 = 66

Now the damage done in 20 swings.

1, misses
2, 18 that's 17 so therefore it's 17 X 22 = 374
19, 20 so that's 2 crits therefore it's 2 X 66 =132

So that's 374 + 132 =

So in total the damage done by dwarvern axes in 20 swings with these stats is 506

Rapiers
Base damage: 1d6 = 3 on average
Str: 10
rapier enhancement: 2
weapon enhancement: 5

So the damage done by a rapier done by a non crit is 20.

Lets count how much the crits do here.
20 X 2 = 40

Now the damage done in 20 swings.

1, misses
2, 14 that's 12 so therefore it's 12 X 20 = 240
15, 20 that's 6 so therefore it's 6 X 40 = 240

So that's 240 + 240 = 480

So in total the damage done by rapiers in 20 swings with these stats is 480

I will do elemental bursting effects on both weapon here really quick to dismiss any future claim that it would give the rapier an advantage under these circumstances.

Dwarvern axe
Elemental weapons hit for 1d6 everytime, unless the mobs immune, I am not going to count that up because it's clear they'll do equal.

Now they hit for 1d10 with a X 2 multiplier, 1d20 with a X 3 multiplier and 1d30 with a X 4 multiplier.
dwavern axe 1d20 = 10 on average times that by 2 because dwarvern axes crit twice in 20 swings so the total damage in 20 swings is 10 X 2 = 20
Rapier 1d10 = 5 on average times that by 6 because they crit six times in 20 swings so the total damage in 20 swings is 5 X 6 = 30

Although the rapier with a bursting effect, alone, will do more damage it does not do enough to surpass the dwarvern axe in total damage.
I do not want to do the maths with an alignment burst although it will probably make the rapier a bit better but since most alignment bursts normally have a very low plus, besides from extremely rare and valuable ones, I do not think it will add up to doing as much damage as a + 5 elemental burst.

So obviously the dwarvern axe is a better weapon under these circumstances with both having the same strength and obviously wouldn't be able to beat a dex based weapon finess build with a minus to strength, like you claimed seeming how they cannot even with the same strength.

Soul-Shaker

01-10-2008, 02:27 AM

1, misses
2, 14 that's 12 so therefore it's 12 X 20 = 240
15, 20 that's 6 so therefore it's 6 X 40 = 240

Dont u mean 14 that's 13 so therefore it's 13x20 = 260

Elemental weapons hit for 1d6 everytime, unless the mobs immune, I am not going to count that up because it's clear they'll do equal.

Now they hit for 1d10 with a X 2 multiplier, 1d20 with a X 3 multiplier and 1d30 with a X 4 multiplier.

And don't you mean 1d10 x2, 2d10 x3, etc. Also note that alignment burst breaks this system in favor of higher crit range. 3d6 x2 4x6 x3, 5d6 x4 (I think in game description might not say on holy burst but testing shows that it works as so). So a rapier will get 18d6 with 6 crits and DA will get 8d6. Also note that average on a dice is usually not whole. 1d6 (1,2,3,4,5,6) average is not 3 but 3.5 which is why the odds of 2d6 is 7.

So obviously the dwarvern axe is a better weapon under these circumstances with both having the same strength and obviously wouldn't be able to beat a dex based weapon finess build with a minus to strength, like you claimed seeming how they cannot even with the same strength.

Thats only with same str. Try factoring buffs such as +12 dmg from favorite enemy and/or warchanter inspire +9.

going off your starting 22DA and 20Rapier non crit dmg

22DA + 21other = +43 dmg with noncrit DA
43 x 17 = 731 (2-18 hit)
43 x 3 x 2 = 258 (19-20 crit)
989 total

20Rapier + 21 other = +41 with noncrit Rapier
41 x 13 = 533 (2-14 hit)
41 x 2 x 6 = 492 (15-20 crit)
1025

As you can see the higher dmg mods that you add to rapier, the more a rapier can pull away in dmg due to crit power(not range). Crit power is the how many extra hit equivalent to multipliers. rapier is [x2 multiplier -1 norm hit] x 6 crit range = equivalent to 6 extra swings. DA is [x3 multiplier -1 norm hit] x 2 = equivalent to 4 extra swings only. This is why rapier may start low since its only a 1d6(3.5 ave) vs DA 1d10 (5.5) but can pull ahead when the buffs increase.

Apostil

01-10-2008, 02:29 AM

I dont see how this breakdown helps show me that a str dwarf with DA does more dmg then a elf dex with rapiers when going up against really high mobs. Since both sides can still get the same exact buffs for tohit but still different tohit based on stats. First off +5 weapon is to simple to calc dps. Maybe +5 holy min. Second both can get racial attack bonus of same power for there set weapons, weapon focus both can get, abbot trink and comp bonus both can get. It comes down on how much of a difference in tohit from str or dex. A dex build as you saw in my post gets +3 more tohit then a str build on average meaning that if you have 36 dual wielding, then a dex would have 39. So under these conditions lets see who does more dps to a 55 ac mob(yes rarely happens) and just going off of simple 20 first swings to simplify.

This means that a dwarf DA would hit on a 19-20 and could crit(but less likely since he needs to roll another 19-seeker item if on). While a dex build hits on a 16-20 and better chance to confirm being +3 higher tohit. Ill use my 2 builds I posted up top for str.

So just assuming that we dont crit due to fail confirmation
DA = [5.5 +2 +5 weapon +12/6 str +7(holy)] x2 = 63 dmg main/51 dmg offhand
Rapier = [3.5 +2 +5 weapon +8/4 str +7(holy)] x5 = 127.5 dmg main/107.5 dmg offhand

And assuming you crit all times
DA = [(5.5 +2 +5 weapon +12/6 str ) x 3 +7(holy)] x 2 = 161 main/125 offhand
Rapier = [(3.5 +2 +5 weapon +8/4 str) x2 +7(holy)] x5 = 220 mainhand/180 offhand

With weapon effects, which is more standard(holy, grtr bane, etc), a higher tohit verusus extremely high ac mobs favors more dps to the one that hits the most unless you are hitting a target with damage reduction.

Erm, I was not calculating damage there I was showing you how high a str based dwarf ranger's to-hit can be. Therefore dismissing claims that a elf dex based ranger is superior verse high AC mobs because of their moderately better to-hit. I understand why you may of thought I was calculating damage it was a bit encrypted unless you were the person I directed that statement at.

Soul-Shaker

01-10-2008, 02:56 AM

Erm, I was not calculating damage there I was showing you how high a str based dwarf ranger's to-hit can be. Therefore dismissing claims that a elf dex based ranger is superior verse high AC mobs because of their moderately better to-hit. I understand why you may of thought I was calculating damage it was a bit encrypted unless you were the person I directed that statement at.

I was not just calculating damage back to you. I was calculating damage between a typical build for str dwarf vs dex elf WITH TOHIT difference which results from dex higher possible.
An elf dex build can reach 39 max dex without other spell buffs. And a dwarf str ranger can get 34 steady max str(18start+4lvl+2rams+3tome+1abbot+6item) in mod 6. But in mod5 its 38dex vs 32str (no rams) which results in a +3 difference in tohit. This +3 tohit makes a difference in damage on HIGH AC MOBS, but you stated:

It's really simple in this game str IS melee damage and also a few of you were mentioning that a dex based ranger would beat a str based ranger against high AC mobs? That's just simply not true i'll do the maths down here to show you what's the maximum to-hit a str based dwarf ranger can get self buffed.

That really doesnt factor in the difference between dex and str build. But my follow up post shows how the Dex tohit difference really shows that +3 tohit on HIGH ac mobs can really make a difference. (but as I also stated in that post, that type of mob is rare).

Apostil

01-10-2008, 03:07 AM

Dont u mean 14 that's 13 so therefore it's 13x20 = 260

And don't you mean 1d10 x2, 2d10 x3, etc. Also note that alignment burst breaks this system in favor of higher crit range. 3d6 x2 4x6 x3, 5d6 x4 (I think in game description might not say on holy burst but testing shows that it works as so). So a rapier will get 18d6 with 6 crits and DA will get 8d6. Also note that average on a dice is usually not whole. 1d6 (1,2,3,4,5,6) average is not 3 but 3.5 which is why the odds of 2d6 is 7.

Thats only with same str. Try factoring buffs such as +12 dmg from favorite enemy and/or warchanter inspire +9.

going off your starting 22DA and 20Rapier non crit dmg

22DA + 21other = +43 dmg with noncrit DA
43 x 17 = 731 (2-18 hit)
43 x 3 x 2 = 258 (19-20 crit)
989 total

20Rapier + 21 other = +41 with noncrit Rapier
41 x 13 = 533 (2-14 hit)
41 x 2 x 6 = 492 (15-20 crit)
1025

As you can see the higher dmg mods that you add to rapier, the more a rapier can pull away in dmg due to crit power(not range). Crit power is the how many extra hit equivalent to multipliers. rapier is [x2 multiplier -1 norm hit] x 6 crit range = equivalent to 6 extra swings. DA is [x3 multiplier -1 norm hit] x 2 = equivalent to 4 extra swings only. This is why rapier may start low since its only a 1d6(3.5 ave) vs DA 1d10 (5.5) but can pull ahead when the buffs increase.

Erm, I acknowledge you're right about what you've said. I guess it's my own fault for not being more thorough in my workings and missing out some important factors. Although I must say that in most circumstances when people are playing they're not going to have bard buffs and have a high likelyhood of not fighting a favoured enemy so dwarvern axes will probably be doing more damage in most circumstances but that being said being said there's always going to be new ways coming out they will increase the damage bonus so rapiers will probably be doing more damage in the hands of the average player in the future.

bandyman1

01-10-2008, 03:09 AM

Apostil

01-10-2008, 03:45 AM

You were??? I thought over your last few posts you made it pretty clear that a Str based dwarven ranger using dwarven axes would out DPS a Dex based elven ranger using rapiers, hands down.

Of course, I strongly disagree with ya, assuming both aren't using simple +5 weapons ( which neither one is going to do at level 14 ).
I think everyone knows that they are gonna be using bursts of PG at the least, and that's the problem with your calculations; the more on crit damage bonuses are added, the more the rapier pulls ahead, because of the increased amount of crits the elf is generating, and the higher to hit bonus they enjoy.

No, you've miss understood I accepted that a maxed out str elf rangers, not dex based, would beat a str based dwarf ranger if they both had very high damage bonuses aka everything in the game currently. I know that a dex based ranger could as well although they would need even more insane extra bonuses to their damage which currently is very hard to get so mostly the DA will beat the rapier in most circumstances currently although it's quite likely it'll change in the future. I have been playing for a yeah my favourite character is my strength based dwarf ranger even though he does nowhere near as much damage as my barbarian, i've played with hundreds of dex based rangers a lot of are great players and individuals but i'll never make a weapon finess character, I do not like the feat,

bandyman1

01-10-2008, 05:18 AM

No, you've miss understood I accepted that a maxed out str elf rangers, not dex based, would beat a str based dwarf ranger if they both had very high damage bonuses aka everything in the game currently. I know that a dex based ranger could as well although they would need even more insane extra bonuses to their damage which currently is very hard to get so mostly the DA will beat the rapier in most circumstances currently although it's quite likely it'll change in the future. I have been playing for a yeah my favourite character is my strength based dwarf ranger even though he does nowhere near as much damage as my barbarian, i've played with hundreds of dex based rangers a lot of are great players and individuals but i'll never make a weapon finess character, I do not like the feat,

But my point was a Dex-based elf can start with a 16 Str. and an 18 Dex, being Dex-based via his enhancements and level ups, and only be 5 Str behind a maxed-Str dwarven or elven ranger. That's only +2 damage bro. The elf doesn't need to be " maxed-Str ", because on a class without access to Str-boosting enhancements, it's not enough to make a difference. Add on-crit effects ( like holy burst ) to the elves already superior crit range, and his extra to-hit ( his Dex is higher than the dwarves Str ) bonus, and he more than equals the extra damage done by the higher d10 damage and X3 crit mod of the dwarven axe of the same type. And as you've seen, the more modifiers you add, the more the elf pulls away from the dwarf.

Yaga_Nub

01-10-2008, 09:58 AM

I know this should be another thread but what about STR based elf using longswords and a STR based dwarf using axes?

CSFurious

01-10-2008, 10:22 AM

that is why dwarves currently rule as melees in this game

i would suggest that the advantage of being a dwarf is that you can have a balanced dex & str & then have a lot of hitpoints, i.e., at level 14, over 315

i do not really care if you are a str or dex-based build

i propose that if you are a melee that you should have a con-based build

no drow, elf, or halfling is going to have that many

that does not mean that those races are bad rangers just that the dwarf has more hitpoints which to me is very important at endgame

peace

Strakeln

01-10-2008, 11:03 AM

Fallout

01-10-2008, 11:04 AM

I just want to make a ranger that can shoot bows. I already got a TWF paladin, dorf fighter and barb.

My dex ranger has 36 dex and 24 st. First of all good piercing weapons are harder to find then slashing weapons, finding good rapiers and SS are harder then finding something out of khopesh, longsword, scimitar, kukri etc. I don't know how many dex base rangers take PA, but after playing st based twf chars, PA is important for that extra dps. After playing a ST base TWF fighter and barb, playing my twf ranger using finesse weapons just feels weaker by comparison.

The to-hit isn't a big deal, most mob AC's are pretty low, and with buffs (gird, bard songs etc) it makes it a moot point in a balance team. My twf chars use power attack and two non-light weapons and don't have a problem hitting mobs.

I'll probably pull my ranger out of retirement home and respec some feats for the deepwood sniper line.

Hey Soul, do you have PA on your chars? Soul's the expert on these things :)

Fallout

01-10-2008, 11:06 AM

Hit points are grossly overrated on these forums. When properly built and played, 150-200 is plenty.

I will give you that most low-HP melee builds are not played properly. Which is a big part of the bad name that rangers have.

I agree. Good aggro management goes a long way. My ranger started out with 6 base con. Yeah he's kind of squishy at times, but he wasn't design to tank. My twf barb started out with 10 con, but mainly because ran out of points after maxing st, and putting alot into dex for twf feat line.

CSFurious

01-10-2008, 11:27 AM

175 & 200 is the borderline between life & death at endgame elite content

i agree that more than 350 hitpoints is overkill

however, min-maxers, i.e., "my con is only 6 so my dex can be 19 or 20", are at a distinct disadvantage when playing this game

so, to anyone reading this who has not already made up their minds, to a certain degree, the more hitpoints the better at end-game

the above advice is for all classes, i have played with too many players who do not have enough hitpoints

not everyone is skilled, and, therefore, more hitpoints equates to more room for error, and, correspondingly, a greater chance of survival

i speak from experience, i have a capped drow 10 ranger/4 fighter who has 217 hitpoints with 32 dex, 24 str & 18 con; i also have a dwarf 10 rogue/4 fighter who has 317 hitpoints with 24 dex, 22 str & 20 (only +4 item, no tome) con; both are played as 2wf off-tanks

i currently prefer playing the dwarf right now because of the 100 additional hitpoints

if i decided to roll a new ranger, & given the choice between elf, drow, halfling, human & dwarf; i would select dwarf before any other race simply because of the increased hitpoints

ranged combat is currently gimped in this game, and, therefore, smart rangers fight hand-to-hand & when fighting as melee, more hitpoints = life

Hit points are grossly overrated on these forums. When properly built and played, 150-200 is plenty.

I will give you that most low-HP melee builds are not played properly. Which is a big part of the bad name that rangers have.

sigtrent

01-10-2008, 11:35 AM

I know this should be another thread but what about STR based elf using longswords and a STR based dwarf using axes?

Dwarf wins...
1d8 with a crit factor of 4
is not as good as
1d10 with a crit factor of 4

D'rin

01-10-2008, 12:21 PM

I have 2 capped rangers and one newbie. The first one of my capped is a dex based melee ranger(my first character). The second is a str based dwarf with one lvl of rogue.

There are two things I think you need to look at with rangers. DPS and kills. Now I know someone will say kills don't mean anything because if you get the last hit then you get the kill. I will qualify my reasoning for kill count. If the mob dies with more than a quarter of its hitpoints left then it died from the con damage that the ranger dealt not from straight damage.

In straight dps it will really depend on the mob. With both having OTWF and STWF then they will have the same attacks and no negatives. On mobs that can be criticalled and are evil a dwarf will most likely use a +4-5 elemental burst of pure good or holy of pure good. And the dex based will use a holy burst or pure good or rightesousness. Lets look at these 2. Dwarven axe holy burst would be silly for a dwarf to use since it is still 3d6 damage and less likely to happen. The dex ranger will be getting a holy burst from both hands on a 15 or greater. So the dex based ranger will go any were from 3d6-6d6 per hand per attack. That can be some serious damage. The to hit modifier will be less than the dwarven axes but only by 2-3 and at high levels hitting is not much of a problem. On none evil mobs the dps will go down but not by much. Grab a elemental burst of pure good or maiming for still good dps. These mobs are elementals,constructs, vermin, animals, mephits and some character types(i.e. halflings/elves etc in certain quests). The only ones that are troublsome for the dex based rangers are the constructs since they can not be punctured. All the others will be taken out faster by stat damage. If you were some how able to get 2 wounding/puncturing rapiers things will die so quick its just sick. The constructs can be overcome by taking them as a favored for a +6-9 damage.

Now named bosses are troublesome since you can not wound/puncture them but switch to your bursting weapons for those fights and still be just fine.

Just for fun I ran I believe crucible elite with my dex ranger and did not use stat damage just holy burst. And still match everyone in kills. This was with a fighter and barb in the party if I recall. If i had used stat damage they would not have been close. That is another aspect on normal or hard the dex ranger is usually best going for dps not stat damage. On elite the mobs drop faster with stat damage.

So a lot of the discussion is variable depending on the quest or the difficulty setting of the quest. DPS vs stat makes the arguement very fuzzy.

Yaga_Nub

01-10-2008, 01:58 PM

Dwarf wins...
1d8 with a crit factor of 4
is not as good as
1d10 with a crit factor of 4

crit factor of 4?

sigtrent

01-10-2008, 02:06 PM

crit factor of 4?

Crit Factor (tm) :)

Crit factor = crit range * (crit muliplier - 1)

This will tell you the proportion of damage that the weapon adds based on its crit profile. Why -1? Because you always do base damage X1 on every swing so you only want to measure the "extra" damage frim the crit. It doesn't tell you which weapon is better overall, just how much extra damage is done on crits. It is an easy way to compare weapons since at higher levels, the base weapon damage becomes somewhat less significant as a percentage of damage dealt.

Apostil

01-10-2008, 04:32 PM

Elleron

01-10-2008, 04:49 PM

The major difference is the ranged mechanic of this game, it still isn't working right.

The benefits of a dual-wielding dwarven ranger is that you get all the 2-weapon fighting stances for free, so u can melee and heal yourself - unlike most fighters.

I started building a ranged ranger/rogue but go so upset with the ranged mechanics she mostly melee's now.

Pvp is something different but if both are using the same equipment and have comparable feats then the str ranger would win.

More hps and more damage - yes the ranged would hit more but still have a problem with making up those hp's.

Ranged ranger (drow elf, elf) like 180 hp's. Str dwarven ranger (350)

sigtrent

01-10-2008, 04:53 PM

This is really starting to annoy me people saying how much damage their builds do or in this instance dex base rangers all I have to say is out of the hundred or so dex based rangers i've grouped with I have not seen this phenomenal straight DPS, no W/P. The same cannot be said about the str based dwarf ranger, i've already seen how rapiers beat dwarvern axes with mathematics if the rapier has a very high and hard to come by bonus to damage and also if it has bursting effects on it.

Well, most dex rangers are....
A: not optimaly built or equiped (W/P rapiers are about the most sought after item in the game and are very rare)
B: don't take any str at all and thus are indeed far behind in DPS
C: arn't generaly played by super aggressive players (makes a huge difference in kill counts)

So in the field... Str rangers are generaly going to out kill dex rangers pretty sollidly. On paper the two are statisticaly very very close.

And your mathmatics were somewhat refuted. The gap is extreemly small and the more damage you do, the more the rapiers start to edge out the axes.

brshelton

01-10-2008, 05:07 PM

40 str? let me see 18 base +3 (lvl ups) +6 (item) +2 (rage) +4 (2x madstone) +3 (+3 str) = 36 (+8 more for scourge choker)
so the grand total of a str based dwarf ranger can only be maximum 44 str. that is when fully buffed with all the rages possible from items (note assuming pure ranger at L14). w/o buffs the absolute max str is 30. in doing so, by giving the str ranger buffs, you are already skewing the discussion in its favor. my dex based elf ranger has 14 base str. given the same items as you did for the str, my max will be 14 base +6 (item) +2 (rage) +4 (2x madstone) +3 (+3 str) = 29 and not the puny 20 you have listed. the difference is only +4 mod.

Str-16+7 Item+1 Tome+3 Level+1 Fighter AP=28 Unbuffed+2 Ram's Might+4 Madstone Rage+2 Rage+8 Blood Rage=46 Buffed

ok so minus 2 because rage pot and part of blood rage dont stack and -1 because no +7 items in Mod 6 I found out=43 with a +1 tome and 16 starting and mod 6 level up going into dex

OP said STR build maxing STR and Dex build Maxing Dex. Not STR maxing STR and Dex maxing STR and DEX. I gave the STR build what he would have with rages which any STR build would want to MAX STR. I didn't give them to Dex build because they give no bonus to Dex. Show me a buff that maxes DEX and I'll add it to the table on the Dex build's side. Notice the only buff I have not from an item was self castable at ranger level 4.

ChildrenofBodom

01-10-2008, 05:12 PM

B: don't take any str at all and thus are indeed far behind in DPS

......?

I started with a 14 str on my dex ranger. 14 is nothing...?

brshelton

01-10-2008, 05:13 PM

crit factor of 4?

i refer you to the falchion vs greataxes thread
sigtrent did a breakdown of how to determine what crit range coupled with multiplier did better AKA is 20x3 better than 19-20x2 etc

brshelton

01-10-2008, 05:17 PM

Honestly anyone who reads the ranger forums build most likely isn't going to be an idiot. So Children saying his Dex build does dps etc and others saying theri STR build has to hit etc is irrelevant cuz those who read the ranger most likely have top notch ranger builds. But the majority of Dex builds arent that way as most people don't even really get what weapon finnese does and what it works with. I knew a finesse fighter wielding khopeshes who didn't know why he couldnt hit ****. One person said to him you require weapon finnese. Another guy went on about how good khopeshes were. WALAH a dex based khopesh build. So everyone defending their Dex/Str builds here plz keep in mind your build is probably better than most and think not of yours but what most Dex/str builds are.

Soul-Shaker

01-10-2008, 06:31 PM

......?

I started with a 14 str on my dex ranger. 14 is nothing...?

14 is fine for a dex ranger. Its those that start with around 10 because they used it as a dump stats due to going full 16 point into dex (20 dex on dex race). I love starting 6pts into str, 10 points into dex on finesse builds to maximize point usage.

Meriadeuc

01-10-2008, 07:32 PM

On mobs that can be criticalled and are evil a dwarf will most likely use a +4-5 elemental burst of pure good or holy of pure good. And the dex based will use a holy burst or pure good or rightesousness.

Both would be better off using holy of greater bane. Two-weapon fighting is at it's best when you use weapons with as much added damage as possible, and you can't beat greater banes for that. The strength based two-weapon fighter will always do more damage than the dex based fighter with comparable equipment, of course, but with really good greater banes it isn't that much of a difference. An extra +5 damage in the main hand (+2 in the off hand) just isn't all that significant when you're talking about an average of 34 or 35 damage to begin with.

D'rin

01-10-2008, 08:55 PM

true, greater banes rock for damage but not hat easy to get a hold of all the greater banes. Mean while holy burst rapiers are easy to get off the AH for little money. And there are always a ton of elemental or pure good dwarven axes. Besides the only time I really worry about dps is red names and mobs that can not be punctured.

Yaga_Nub

01-11-2008, 02:25 PM

i refer you to the falchion vs greataxes thread
sigtrent did a breakdown of how to determine what crit range coupled with multiplier did better AKA is 20x3 better than 19-20x2 etc

I understand what he's talking about, I've just never heard or seen it called a crit factor.

I also don't understand his formula:

Crit factor = crit range * (crit muliplier - 1)

So the crit factor of a long sword should be 2 * (2-1) = 2

And the crit factor of a DA should be 1 * (3-1) = 2

Unless you factor in Improved Critical:Slashing

Longsword = 4 * (2-1) = 4
Dwarven Axe = 2 * (3-1) = 4

So just using that formula, I still don't know what the hell he's talking about when he says that dwarven axes are better than longswords.

Other than the longsword will only do 4.5 hp of damage on average and the dwarven axe will do 5.5. But that's not enough of a difference to not call it even in my book.

I used JJ's weapon comparison tool to compare a simple longsword and dwarven axe and with no effects they are basically the same. Adding Elemental Bursts and Greater Bane or Maiming and the longsword out performs the DA at lower AC.

CSFurious

01-11-2008, 02:32 PM

this thread & the enjoyment that i had in recently leveling up my dwarf 10 rogue/4 fighter has motivated me to roll up a 9 ranger/5 barbarian

starting stats:

str 18

dex 15

con 15

int 8

wis 11

chr 6

complete min-max, & i will just be constantly raging & dual-wielding axes

after cap-raise to 16, i will take 2 levels of ranger for 11/5 split & i have not thought any farther ahead as of right now

peace

sigtrent

01-11-2008, 02:33 PM

I started with a 14 str on my dex ranger. 14 is nothing...?

14 is what I would generaly reccomend for a finesse ranger but many rangers start with 8 or 10 being unconcerned with how much damage they do.

sigtrent

01-11-2008, 02:39 PM

Longsword = 4 * (2-1) = 4
Dwarven Axe = 2 * (3-1) = 4

So just using that formula, I still don't know what the hell he's talking about when he says that dwarven axes are better than longswords.

Other than the longsword will only do 4.5 hp of damage on average and the dwarven axe will do 5.5. But that's not enough of a difference to not call it even in my book.

Ding! The axe does more base damage so it is better. A big difference... perhaps not but it is technicaly better. That doesn't mean longswords are bad in the hands of an elf, just not quite as good as a dwarven axe in the hands of a dwarf. Also, you will find at higher levels there are many times where you get automatic criticals (held or stunned monsters etc) and when that happens the muliplier is king. Most of my combat characters carry a pair of heavy picks for quests when patied with a hold happy caster.

Yaga_Nub

01-11-2008, 02:40 PM

14 is what I would generaly reccomend for a finesse ranger but many rangers start with 8 or 10 being unconcerned with how much damage they do.

I'd recommend 15 as the lowest because at level 20 we'll have +5 tomes but then again I look at everything very long term.

brshelton

01-11-2008, 02:40 PM

I understand what he's talking about, I've just never heard or seen it called a crit factor.

I also don't understand his formula:

Crit factor = crit range * (crit muliplier - 1)

So the crit factor of a long sword should be 2 * (2-1) = 2

And the crit factor of a DA should be 1 * (3-1) = 2

Unless you factor in Improved Critical:Slashing

Longsword = 4 * (2-1) = 4
Dwarven Axe = 2 * (3-1) = 4

So just using that formula, I still don't know what the hell he's talking about when he says that dwarven axes are better than longswords.

Other than the longsword will only do 4.5 hp of damage on average and the dwarven axe will do 5.5. But that's not enough of a difference to not call it even in my book.

I used JJ's weapon comparison tool to compare a simple longsword and dwarven axe and with no effects they are basically the same. Adding Elemental Bursts and Greater Bane or Maiming and the longsword out performs the DA at lower AC.

crit factor is same but base damage is higher on axes

Yaga_Nub

01-11-2008, 02:42 PM

Ding! The axe does more base damage so it is better. A big difference... perhaps not but it is technicaly better. That doesn't mean longswords are bad in the hands of an elf, just not quite as good as a dwarven axe in the hands of a dwarf. Also, you will find at higher levels there are many times where you get automatic criticals (held or stunned monsters etc) and when that happens the muliplier is king. Most of my combat characters carry a pair of heavy picks for quests when patied with a hold happy caster.

Well the weapon comparison tool doesn't prove that to be true and in fact shows that the longsword is just a tad bit better overall.

If you are talking about those auto-crit situations then you are correct that every good melee has a couple of bursting heavy picks to use.

Yaga_Nub

01-11-2008, 02:43 PM

crit factor is same but base damage is higher on axes

I already mentioned that but 1 hp of damage difference isn't enough to write home about.

brshelton

01-11-2008, 02:58 PM

I'd recommend 15 as the lowest because at level 20 we'll have +5 tomes but then again I look at everything very long term.

+5 tomes EEEK thatd be obscene so does that mean +4 or +3 would drop unbound? They better raise AH price cap by then....

brshelton

01-11-2008, 03:00 PM

I already mentioned that but 1 hp of damage difference isn't enough to write home about.

But its 2 damage more possibly still so lets see 10>8 so lets see uh hmmm that means that 10 is better!

sigtrent

01-11-2008, 03:03 PM

Well the weapon comparison tool doesn't prove that to be true and in fact shows that the longsword is just a tad bit better overall.

Then there is something wrong with your weapon comparison tool. The only exception would be if you plug in alignment burst weapons where crit range trumps crit multiplier and that will outpace the small base damage bonus on the axe. Of course it goes without saying were talking about characters wtih the same bonuses in all other areas. Elf melee/dwarf melee etc...

Give the longsword +1 damage and the axe's damage advantage vanishes.

sigtrent

01-11-2008, 03:05 PM

But its 2 damage more possibly still so lets see 10>8 so lets see uh hmmm that means that 10 is better!

In PnP there is an advantage in having a high damage range like that. When push comes to shove if one extra point of damage on a lucky swing drops a monster, its sometimes worht the risk. Luck can reign supreem in low level D&D because unlike DDO you don't have those inflated HP or as many combats to let averages do thier thing.

Yaga_Nub

01-11-2008, 03:07 PM

Then there is something wrong with your weapon comparison tool. The only exception would be if you plug in alignment burst weapons where crit range trumps crit multiplier and that will outpace the small base damage bonus on the axe. Of course it goes without saying were talking about characters wtih the same bonuses in all other areas. Elf melee/dwarf melee etc...

Give the longsword +1 damage and the axe's damage advantage vanishes.

Talk to JJFlanigan about the tool but everyone has pretty much helped him get every found bug out of the tool.

Some people don't like that they can't see all the math but if you can still find some flaw in his math then you can help fix it.

The tool tells you the damage ranges at each AC and until you hit the 40s a longsword is a superior weapon. In the 40s the number get closer until the DA starts doing much damage on average but are you really going to tell the difference between 1.85 hp of damage compared to 2.1 hp of damage?

Go here for his weapon comparison tool. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=88918) Look in his signature.

sigtrent

01-11-2008, 05:26 PM

Talk to JJFlanigan about the tool but everyone has pretty much helped him get every found bug out of the tool.

I grabbed the tool. Put in Dwarven War Axe and Longsword. So long as you give both weapons the same bonuses the lines are compleately parralel with the great axe exceding the longsword by a narrow margin. Exactly what I would suspect you would see. So whomever did their chart or whatever was inputed in to see a difference... there was a mistake made somewhere along the line. There is no crossing of lines between the two weapons at any AC value.

QuantumFX

01-11-2008, 06:32 PM

+5 tomes EEEK thatd be obscene so does that mean +4 or +3 would drop unbound? They better raise AH price cap by then....

It's possible to get a +5 inherent bonus to your attributes pre-epic levels so it's not a bad gamble to make. Also the only reason +2 unbound tomes are worth so much is they're artifically placed at the top end of the reward scale.

Yaga_Nub

01-11-2008, 07:51 PM

I grabbed the tool. Put in Dwarven War Axe and Longsword. So long as you give both weapons the same bonuses the lines are compleately parralel with the great axe exceding the longsword by a narrow margin. Exactly what I would suspect you would see. So whomever did their chart or whatever was inputed in to see a difference... there was a mistake made somewhere along the line. There is no crossing of lines between the two weapons at any AC value.

Thanks sig, you actually just helped me with a completely different issue. A financial model that I was working on wasn't coming out as I expected it to no matter how I changed the formulas. I was using my laptop from work to do this modeling. It was on my laptop that I ran the first numbers for this.

I came home and saw your post and ran them on my desktop and I get the DA being slightly superior to the longsword like you are saying. I remoted into my work computer and ran it again and the laptop still shows the longsword being better. Now I'm going to pull my models over to my home computer and work on them a bit and see what I get.

And people say the forums are a waste of time. :) If this fixes my model I owe you a drink.